Have you ever used this funky style 2" PVC sliding pipe connection

[Danny D]

I'm cutting out a leaking ion-exchange unit at the pool equipment.

The local hardware store talked me into this funky repair pipe:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335303/img/13335303.jpg

Have you ever used one of these funky things before?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Jun 16, 6:52 pm, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:
> I'm cutting out a leaking ion-exchange unit at the pool equipment.
>

Don't let any of the dilithium crystals spill out.....

> The local hardware store talked me into this funky repair pipe:
>  http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335303/img/13335303.jpg
>
> Have you ever used one of these funky things before?

No, and have no idea what it is, what it's purpose is, etc.

[Oren]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 22:52:04 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>The local hardware store talked me into this funky repair pipe:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335303/img/13335303.jpg
>
>Have you ever used one of these funky things before?

Never saw one of those. You can make a PVC connection by other means.

How did they talk you into such a gadget?

[Danny D]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:57:59 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Don't let any of the dilithium crystals spill out.....

:)

> No, and have no idea what it is, what it's purpose is, etc.

It's some kind of funky fancy no-fuss "slider" pipe. :)

I'm inclined to put the schedule 80 compression fitting in there (the
store didn't have any schedule 40 compression fittings), but the pipe is
so low to the ground, I might not have enough room.

That ion-exchange thing is a PITA - I can't even figure out how to
disconnect it - so I'm going brute force sawit out. :(
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335395/img/13335395.jpg

Why do they put these things in there anyway?

[Danny D]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 16:21:07 -0700, Oren wrote:

> How did they talk you into such a gadget?

They didn't have any schedule 40 unions in stock! :)

I'm sawing out the leaking ion-exchange thingey, so, I'll let you
know how it works (if I use it, and not the schedule 80 union).

[Oren]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 00:07:22 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <Dan...@example.com>
wrote:

>That ion-exchange thing is a PITA - I can't even figure out how to
>disconnect it - so I'm going brute force sawit out. :(
> http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335395/img/13335395.jpg
>
>Why do they put these things in there anyway?

They do it for money, Danny. You know that. They oversold the buyer
for what was needed.

Use a blackboard and chalk. It looks like this; "$".

Everything centers around a dollar. You know that.

[ChairMan]

In news:kplfik$91a$1...@speranza.aioe.org,
Danny D <Dan...@example.com> belched:

I've used one on one of my pool connection with no issues

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Jun 16, 8:07 pm, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:57:59 -0700, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > Don't let any of the dilithium crystals spill out.....
>
>   :)
>
> > No, and have no idea what it is, what it's purpose is, etc.
>
> It's some kind of funky fancy no-fuss "slider" pipe. :)
>
> I'm inclined to put the schedule 80 compression fitting in there (the
> store didn't have any schedule 40 compression fittings), but the pipe is
> so low to the ground, I might not have enough room.

WTF is a Sched 80 or 40 "compression fitting"?

And what's wrong with normal PVC fittings that make them
unsuitable?

[Dean Hoffman]

On 6/16/13 7:51 PM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Jun 16, 8:07 pm, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:57:59 -0700, trad...@optonline.net wrote:

> WTF is a Sched 80 or 40 "compression fitting"?

One of these, for example: http://tinyurl.com/kc3ly9u

>
> And what's wrong with normal PVC fittings that make them
> unsuitable?
>

The compression fitting was darn handy one time when I had to fix
an underground plastic pipe.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Yes, I used one to repair the connection to the manifold of our
sprinkler system. Nobody talked me into it: as soon as I saw it, I knew
that it was what I needed to do the job in the simplest possible way.

Perce

[Danny D]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:40:03 -0500, ChairMan wrote:

> I've used one on one of my pool connection with no issues

Here is a picture of it collapsed and extended.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335633/img/13335633.jpg

It seems to have an o-ring that prevents leaks.

[Danny D]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 17:20:03 -0700, Oren wrote:

>>Why do they put these things in there anyway?
>
> They do it for money, Danny. You know that. They oversold the buyer for
> what was needed.

Yup. I don't disagree. The buyer seems to have paid for all the frills.

Funny thing though.

After paying for all the upgrades, they gave him steel bolts!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335638/img/13335638.jpg

[Oren]

I'll make the assumption that your irrigation lines are not 2" PVC,
like the photo above.

My irrigation manifold is under ground in a irrigation box with cover.

Best move I ever made to avoid UV damage, etc....

[Danny D]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 17:51:56 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> WTF is a Sched 80 or 40 "compression fitting"?

Dean Hoffman showed a picture of the compression fittin:
http://tinyurl.com/kc3ly9u

But, I was mistaken by calling my fitting that; mine was a
schedule 80 union.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335707/img/13335707.jpg

> And what's wrong with normal PVC fittings that make them unsuitable?

Nothing. I just like being able to take things apart, if needed:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335710/img/13335710.jpg

[ChairMan]

In news:kplpv0$tkj$1...@speranza.aioe.org,
Danny D <Dan...@example.com> belched:

FYI: if you can, put a little waterproof grease on the o-ring before
assembly.
It helps make a better seal.
Mine leaked a bit for a couple days until it got a crud seal

[Danny D]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:49:20 +0000, Danny D wrote:

> It seems to have an o-ring that prevents leaks.

The o-ring in the funky fitting is in a different
place than in a union; so in the end, I opted for
the union (worried that the o-ring would leak).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335712/img/13335712.jpg

[Danny D]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 21:44:39 -0500, ChairMan wrote:

> FYI: if you can, put a little waterproof grease on the o-ring before
> assembly.
> It helps make a better seal.
> Mine leaked a bit for a couple days until it got a crud seal

I didn't like the way the funky fitting sealed.
The o-ring was on the end of the sliding pipe in the direction of the
flow of water ... whereas, with a union ... the o-ring is in the middle
of the screw-together connection, away from the direct flow of water.

With all that pressure, I was worried the funky tool would leak.
So, in the end, I opted for the schedule 80 union instead:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335748/img/13335748.jpg

[Bob F]

Compression fittings have the advantage of being replacable by themselves.
Unlike unions that you can't duplicate one side of when things fail years later.
Compression fittings have the disadvantage of becoming leaky easier than unions.

[DD_BobK]

DADD-

omg...you're at it again!

Making a mountain out of a mole hill.....
injecting your substandard logic & experience into a simple situation,
dragging out the thread ad nauseum

I know you're close to SV....does Google not work in your area?

http://bit.ly/19cHvMs

The unit is a "telescoping coupling", a simple / effective means for
following application
........
http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?&product=PVC-Couples-Telescoping

S119-20 2 inch repair coupling, slip x slip
If you need to make a repair on pipe that is not easily moved, this is
what you need. Telescoping couple, 2" socket by 2" socket. One end
moves in and out to match up with existing pipe. Saves digging up the
whole pipe to make a repair. NSF Rated for potable water, pressure up
to 200PSI.

I've only installed two, the largest unit I've used is 3/4". Last one
installed in ~2005...no issues on either install.

Kinda like "Shark Bites"... might seem like magic but the design
concepts are sound

and in the age of internet, bad product performance would "blow back"
onto the mfr & sellers post haste.

[John Grabowski]

*It looks like an expansion coupling. Probably just what you need to fit a
new piece in.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Jun 16, 10:34 pm, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 17:51:56 -0700, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > WTF is a Sched 80 or 40 "compression fitting"?
>
> Dean Hoffman showed a picture of the compression fittin:
>  http://tinyurl.com/kc3ly9u

So, it's like a Sharkbite. I didn't know they made them as
large as 2".

>
> But, I was mistaken by calling my fitting that; mine was a
> schedule 80 union.
>  http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335707/img/13335707.jpg
>
> > And what's wrong with normal PVC fittings that make them unsuitable?
>
> Nothing. I just like being able to take things apart, if needed:
>  http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335710/img/13335710.jpg

And of course a "union" is a normal PVC fitting and you're not
using a compression fitting. I'll bet those 2" compression fittings
cost a fortune. I'm having a hard time imagining the
need to use one, versus say doing a repair using two 50cent
repair couplings and a piece of PVC pipe.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Jun 16, 11:57 pm, "Bob F" <bobnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Danny D wrote:

> > On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 17:51:56 -0700, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> >> WTF is a Sched 80 or 40 "compression fitting"?
>
> > Dean Hoffman showed a picture of the compression fittin:
> >http://tinyurl.com/kc3ly9u
>
> > But, I was mistaken by calling my fitting that; mine was a
> > schedule 80 union.
> >http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335707/img/13335707.jpg
>
> >> And what's wrong with normal PVC fittings that make them unsuitable?
>
> > Nothing. I just like being able to take things apart, if needed:
> >http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335710/img/13335710.jpg
>
> Compression fittings have the advantage of being replacable by themselves.
> Unlike unions that you can't duplicate one side of when things fail years later.

So, what? If it fails, just replace the whole union. Are those
compression fittings meant to be taken apart and put back
together again many times, like a union?


> Compression fittings have the disadvantage of becoming leaky easier than unions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Jun 17, 1:45 am, DD_BobK <rkaza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 8:13 pm, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 21:44:39 -0500, ChairMan wrote:
> > > FYI:  if you can, put a little waterproof grease on the o-ring before
> > > assembly.
> > > It helps make a better seal.
> > > Mine leaked a bit for a couple days until it got  a crud seal
>
> > I didn't like the way the funky fitting sealed.
> > The o-ring was on the end of the sliding pipe in the direction of the
> > flow of water ... whereas, with a union ... the o-ring is in the middle
> > of the screw-together connection, away from the direct flow of water.
>
> > With all that pressure, I was worried the funky tool would leak.
> > So, in the end, I opted for the schedule 80 union instead:
> >  http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335748/img/13335748.jpg
>
> DADD-
>
> omg...you're at it again!
>
> Making a mountain out of a mole hill.....
> injecting your substandard logic & experience into a simple situation,
> dragging out the thread ad nauseum
>
> I know you're close to SV....does Google not work in your area?
>
> http://bit.ly/19cHvMs
>
> The unit is a "telescoping coupling", a simple / effective means for
> following application

> ........http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?&product=PVC-Couples-Telescoping

>
> S119-20 2 inch repair coupling, slip x slip
> If you need to make a repair on pipe that is not easily moved, this is
> what you need. Telescoping couple, 2" socket by 2" socket. One end
> moves in and out to match up with existing pipe. Saves digging up the
> whole pipe to make a repair. NSF Rated for potable water, pressure up
> to 200PSI.
>
> I've only installed two, the largest unit I've used is 3/4". Last one
> installed in ~2005...no issues on either install.
>
> Kinda like "Shark Bites"... might seem like magic but the design
> concepts are sound
>
> and in the age of internet, bad product performance would "blow back"
> onto the mfr & sellers post haste.

Still not sure what makes this so great versus a piece
of PVC and two repair couplings.

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 6/17/2013 or whenever, somebody wrote:
>
>
>> Compression fittings have the disadvantage of becoming leaky easier than unions.-

Difficult to imagine that that's the general case with compression
fittings. Aren't they generally used for waste pipe? i.e. no or very
low static pressure?

Personally I've only used them for plumbing a swimming pool filtration
system that included a heater. Obviously, outdoor installation, entire
system under pressure and subject to the elements. Once properly
aligned and snugged down leakage was never a problem.

Why? End of season you want to drain everything down, pull the pump for
winterization. Compression fittings like these made that a snap.

[Harry K]

On Jun 17, 5:14 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

I used one ot them (real name is "Dressler Coupling") to connect/
disconnect my irrigation puimp feeding out of a stram. Eventually it
'cold formed' the PVC pipe into a 'depression' where the gasket fit.
Took yeas to do it though. I don't think
I would ever use one on PVC pipe in a buried application. I do have a
couple of the galvanized ones in service, one over 20 oyears, with no
problems...yet.

Harry K

[Harry K]

On Jun 17, 5:12 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

Normal repair couiplings require at least one of the two ends be
movable back and forth. A compression one
can be fitted if all you can do is move one of the pipes sideways.

Harry K

[Danny D]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 05:12:18 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> I'll bet those 2" compression fittings cost a fortune. I'm having a
> hard time imagining the need to use one, versus say doing a repair using
> two 50cent repair couplings and a piece of PVC pipe.

I agree. I did not buy a *compression fitting* (it was my mistake to use
that word). I bought a schedule 80 *union* (they don't seem to make them
in schedule 40 where I live) - and a funky slider slider coupling.

Googling, I find it's actually called an *expansion coupling"
http://www.troubleshooters.com/pool/repipe/#Expansion_Couplings

It's only rated at 200 psi though:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0069QVSB4

[tra...@optonline.net]

> Harry K- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

No, a repair coupling does not require that one of the pipes
move sideways. To replace a section of pipe with a hole,
you cut out that section. You cut a new piece of pipe about
1/4" shorter. You prime, put on glue. On the existing
pipe you only apply glue to the usual length. On the new
piece of pipe you apply primer/glue along enough of it so
that the repair couplings can be slid ALL THE WAY ON.
Put pipe in place, slide couplings half way back so that they
are now over the old pipe.

[Danny D]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 22:45:29 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

> Kinda like "Shark Bites"... might seem like magic but the design
> concepts are sound

I was looking for people's experience in using this "telescopic coupling"
aka *expansion coupling*.

It looks like the DIY pool repair guy here did exactly what I did:
http://www.troubleshooters.com/pool/repipe/

He *bought* the same coupling that I did; he took it apart, and looked at
where the single o-ring was - and given that it's on the *end* of the
slider pipe, he concluded, as I did, that it might not hold pressure as
well as a union would.

I find out here that even the really fancy ones with multiple Viton/EPDM
o-rings (over $300 each!) are rated only to about 235 PSI:
http://tinyurl.com/k5r6lyg

[Danny D]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 05:18:41 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Still not sure what makes this so great versus a piece of PVC and two
> repair couplings.

Now that I've taken the thing apart and compared it with a union, I think
that in certain applications they might be great. For example, if your
pipes *move* in use, and if you're below 200 psi, they might be useful.

Also, in my case, I knew I had limited clearance between the bottom of
the pipe and the concrete slab - so I had reasoned (in the store) that it
was "thinner" at its greatest width than a normal schedule 80 union was.

It turns out though that the schedule 80 union just about made it, so I
had room enough for that "fatter" union. Plus, when I took the expansion
coupling (aka telescopic coupling) apart, I was worried that the o-ring,
which goes around the end of the sliding pipe, was directly in the path
of the onrushing water - and I reasoned that it could cause turbulence
compared to the little nub on the inside of the union - and - worse yet -
it might leak since the o-ring is directly in the path of the onrushing
water.

Googling for the PSI of a 2 inch union, I am dismayed that they are only
pressure rated to 150 psi:
http://www.1pvc.com/PVC-schedule-40/pvc40-Union-Slip-x-Slip/

So, I guess, in hindsight, *both* unions and expansion couplings don't
handle high PSI. (I forget what the PSI is in the pool pipes though.)

[Danny D]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 07:21:48 -0400, John Grabowski wrote:

> *It looks like an expansion coupling.
> Probably just what you need to fit a new piece in.

I found out later that you are correct.
It's known as a 2-piece "expansion coupling" or "telescopic coupling".

Lowes sells them as:
CARLON 2-in Schedule 40 PVC Coupling Item #: 72268 | Model #: E945J-CAR

Apparently they're useful to "compensate for length changes due to
temperature variations".

In my case, there were no length changes over time; so it was overkill.

[John Grabowski]

>> *It looks like an expansion coupling.
>> Probably just what you need to fit a new piece in.
>
> I found out later that you are correct.
> It's known as a 2-piece "expansion coupling" or "telescopic coupling".
>
> Lowes sells them as:
> CARLON 2-in Schedule 40 PVC Coupling Item #: 72268 | Model #: E945J-CAR
>
> Apparently they're useful to "compensate for length changes due to
> temperature variations".
>
> In my case, there were no length changes over time; so it was overkill.

*The Carlon model is for electrical conduit only and is used for PVC
electrical conduit that is subjected to temperature variations because PVC
expands and contracts as the temperature changes.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 12:00:57 -0400, John Grabowski wrote:

> *The Carlon model is for electrical conduit only and is used for PVC
> electrical conduit that is subjected to temperature variations because
> PVC expands and contracts as the temperature changes.

Ooops. My mistake.

I had googled for expansion couplings and I had not realized those that I
had found at Lowes (for half the price that I had had paid for mine) were
for electrical connectors. Thanks for pointing that out.

That also explains the low price (about $8), which alone should have
clued me in as mine was almost double that price.

So one of the cons of these 2" PVC (fluid) expansion couplings is cost.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 07:22:22 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> To replace a section of pipe with a hole ...

I need to repair this hole, which was plugged by whomever removed the
automatic chlorine feeder; but it sometimes leaks:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13343398/img/13343398.jpg

I don't understand how it can be done, even after reading your
description. The 1/4 inch won't be enough.

I think you're saying to fix this, I can:
1. Cut out on both sides of the hole
2. Primer & cement on a coupling on both sides
3. Measure the pipe to fit between the couplings
(going 1.5 inches in both sides.
4. Subtract (you say 1/4 but I think it's 1.5 inches) from that
measurement
5. Put primer & cement on both ends of the new pipe
6. Shove the pipe all the way (1.5 inches) on one side
7. That just lets you get the pipe to touch the other side
8. Then center the pipe 3/4 inches on both sides

That's the only way I see that it can be done, and, even this method has
a problem that you can't shove the pipe straight in on the first side.

So I must be missing something on how to repair a section without a union.

[Danny D]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 22:45:29 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

> If you need to make a repair on pipe that is not easily moved, this is
> what you need. Telescoping couple, 2" socket by 2" socket.

Here is a picture of the o-ring location of the union versus the
telescopic slide:slide coupling:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13343518/img/13343518.jpg

Notice the location of the o-ring in the expansion coupling is in line
with the fluid, while that of the union is off to the side.

[ChairMan]

In news:kpocsa$on4$1...@speranza.aioe.org,
Danny D <Dan...@example.com> belched:

you could have turned the expansion one around so that it flowed with the
water

[Dean Hoffman]

On 6/17/13 9:11 AM, Harry K wrote:

> I used one ot them (real name is "Dressler Coupling") to connect/
> disconnect my irrigation puimp feeding out of a stram. Eventually it
> 'cold formed' the PVC pipe into a 'depression' where the gasket fit.
> Took yeas to do it though. I don't think
> I would ever use one on PVC pipe in a buried application. I do have a
> couple of the galvanized ones in service, one over 20 oyears, with no
> problems...yet.
>
> Harry K
>

I used to see some on pipe for pivot irrigation systems. It's
been a long time ago though. Water supply pipe for pivots is usually
8" in the central U.S. There is some 10" but it's pretty uncommon
around here.
There really is no need for them since there is usually an elbow or
something one can remove to get pipe apart.

[Danny D]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:16:48 -0500, ChairMan wrote:

> you could have turned the expansion one around so that it
> flowed with the water

That might help; but it's still inline with the water flow,
whereas the union is off the flow direction (AFAIK).

Still - that would have been a good idea had I used the
expansion coupling for the repair.

Next repair I'm going to try just couplings and pipes, to see
if it can be done without a union.

[DD_BobK]

DADD-

I guess the results of your "Googling" means that

flexpvc.com is wrong when they call the item a PVC-Couples-
Telescoping?

http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?&product=PVC-Couples-Telescoping

btw 200psi isn't enough for your pool application?

>>>Now that I've taken the thing apart and compared it with a union, I think
that in certain applications they might be great. For example, if
your
pipes *move* in use, and if you're below 200 psi, they might be
useful.<<<

Totally awesome! DADD has pronounced the telescoping couple as "in

certain applications they might be great."

I'm certain the mfr will be glad to hear that & continue making them.

Question...got any idea of the operating pressure rating for 2" Sch 40
PVC pipe?

hmmm probably less than 200 psi

Question...got any idea of the operating pressure for a pool filter
system?

Question...got any idea of the length changes in a typical piping
system?

[DD_BobK]

DADD-

You're preaching to the choir....
I know exactly how these things are designed & how they work.

They work just fine otherwise you'd find tons of complaints about
them.

Your concern about "O-ring in the expansion coupling is in line with
the fluid" is unfounded,
more novice / non-mechanically inclined hand wringing.

[DD_BobK]

On Jun 17, 7:16 pm, "ChairMan" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote:
> Innews:kpocsa$on4$1...@speranza.aioe.org,

+1

good point but the o-ring is not vulnerable to the water flow in any
case

[DD_BobK]

your analysis is wrong... there is no O-ring location problem.

The real problem is "AFAIK" actually means "you really have no idea
what you're talking about...you make stuff up based on faulty logic"

ever heard the punchline "frogs with no legs cannot hear"?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Jun 17, 8:22 pm, Danny D <Dan...@example.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 07:22:22 -0700, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > To replace a section of pipe with a hole ...
>
> I need to repair this hole, which was plugged by whomever removed the
> automatic chlorine feeder; but it sometimes leaks:
>  http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13343398/img/13343398.jpg
>
> I don't understand how it can be done, even after reading your
> description. The 1/4 inch won't be enough.
>
> I think you're saying to fix this, I can:
> 1. Cut out on both sides of the hole
> 2. Primer & cement on a coupling on both sides
> 3. Measure the pipe to fit between the couplings
> (going 1.5 inches in both sides.
> 4. Subtract (you say 1/4 but I think it's 1.5 inches) from that
> measurement

Let's say you have 3 ft of pipe with one 6" section near the
middle that's bad. You cut out the 6" piece. You cut a new
piece about 1/4" shorter. Now it will fit easily where the
bad piece was. You prime/glue all 4 ends of the pipes and
the two repair couplings. You slide the repair couplings
ALL THE WAY ONTO THE 5 3/4" repair pipe. Now what
you have is still 5 3/4" in length. You position the repair pipe
with the couplings where it goes, then slide the two
couplings into place over the ends of the existing pipe.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:48:04 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Let's say you have 3 ft of pipe with one 6" section near the middle
> that's bad. You cut out the 6" piece. You cut a new piece about 1/4"
> shorter. Now it will fit easily where the bad piece was. You
> prime/glue all 4 ends of the pipes and the two repair couplings. You
> slide the repair couplings ALL THE WAY ONTO THE 5 3/4" repair pipe. Now
> what you have is still 5 3/4" in length. You position the repair pipe
> with the couplings where it goes, then slide the two couplings into
> place over the ends of the existing pipe.

Thanks for being patient with the explanation.

I understand the key point, which is you make a temporary double-ended
"slider" out of the repair 5-3/4pipe, where it fits inside the 6"
opening, and then, while the glue is still wet, you slide the still-wet
couplings (before they have set) out to meet the old pipe on both ends.

This is ingenious!

The only problem I have is with the math on the initial length of the
5-3/4 inch repair pipe - but that's a minor concern as the idea is what
matters.

(I'll take up the length clarification separately.)

[Danny D]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:48:04 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Let's say you have 3 ft of pipe with one 6" section near the middle
> that's bad. You cut out the 6" piece. You cut a new piece about 1/4"
> shorter. Now it will fit easily where the bad piece was. You
> prime/glue all 4 ends of the pipes and the two repair couplings. You
> slide the repair couplings ALL THE WAY ONTO THE 5 3/4" repair pipe. Now
> what you have is still 5 3/4" in length. You position the repair pipe
> with the couplings where it goes, then slide the two couplings into
> place over the ends of the existing pipe.

[Danny D]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:48:04 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Let's say you have 3 ft of pipe with one 6" section near the middle
> that's bad. You cut out the 6" piece. You cut a new piece about 1/4"
> shorter. Now it will fit easily where the bad piece was. You
> prime/glue all 4 ends of the pipes and the two repair couplings. You
> slide the repair couplings ALL THE WAY ONTO THE 5 3/4" repair pipe. Now
> what you have is still 5 3/4" in length. You position the repair pipe
> with the couplings where it goes, then slide the two couplings into
> place over the ends of the existing pipe.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:42:31 +0000, Danny D wrote:

> I understand the key point, which is you make a temporary double-ended
> "slider" out of the repair 5-3/4pipe,

Drat. Every once in a while, my newsreader hangs and sends the same
message out 3 times! Sorry about that.

Message-ID: <kpprgq$f1c$1...@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <kpprhp$f2t$1...@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <kpprkn$fcl$1...@speranza.aioe.org>

I'm sending this via a different news server.

[ChairMan]

In news:6e25d136-afee-4093...@ic1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com,
DD_BobK <rkaz...@gmail.com> belched:

I know, mine is installed exactly like that and hasn't leaked.
I was just pointing out the obvious<g>

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:34:26 -0500, ChairMan wrote:

> I know, mine is installed exactly like that and hasn't leaked.
> I was just pointing out the obvious<g>

I took both apart to visually analyze how they work:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13351181/640/13351181.jpg

Laying them side by side, the o-ring is in a different position:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13351182/img/13351182.jpg

Each o-ring seems to be blocking flow slightly differently:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13351213/img/13351213.jpg

DD_BobK says he knows exactly how they work so I'll let him
explain as they seem to work slightly differently, admittedly
to my inexperienced eyes (having never even seen the telescopic
coupling before).

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:48:04 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Let's say you have 3 ft of pipe with one 6" section near the
> middle that's bad. You cut out the 6" piece. You cut a new
> piece about 1/4" shorter. Now it will fit easily where the
> bad piece was. You prime/glue all 4 ends of the pipes and
> the two repair couplings. You slide the repair couplings
> ALL THE WAY ONTO THE 5 3/4" repair pipe. Now what
> you have is still 5 3/4" in length. You position the repair pipe
> with the couplings where it goes, then slide the two
> couplings into place over the ends of the existing pipe.

I love the procedure; I just have a problem with the math,
and, since I plan on trying it out, the math matters.

The problem I have is that the coupling seems to have an internal
stop at about 1-1/4 inches inward as shown in this photo:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13351228/img/13351228.jpg

Given that, the repair pipe is extended by the remaining amount
on both sides, which is about 1-1/2 inches on each side including
the stop itself and a bit of slop (for a total of 3 inches of
length extension).

So, given a six-inch opening, if I subtract those extra 3 inches,
that would make a repair pipe of about 3 inches.

If I then subtract the 1/4 inch from those 3 inches, I get the
following dimensions & procedure for the repair pipe:

1. Cut a 2-3/4" repair pipe
2. The total length including the two couplings would be:
2-3/4" pipe + 1-1/2" coupling + 1-1/2" coupling = 5-3/4"
3. That should easily fit in the 6-inch opening.

a. Prime everything & put glue on everything
b. Place the couplings on the pipe ends (all the way)
c. Insert the pipe in the opening, and slide the couplings outward

This math, if I work fast, should fix this hole, if I cut out
six inches of pipe. Right?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13343398/img/13343398.jpg

PS: I changed my newsserver because aioe is posting in triplicate.

[Harry K]

On Jun 18, 12:48 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

Good luck with any of that. The glue bond (not totally set) is enough
to freeze the piece you slide into position. You can't reslide it
anywhere. On top of that a standard union cannot be slid "all the way
on".

Perhaps there is a "repair union" that does not have that center ridge
preventing sliding it but even then the glue bond prevendts any
"sliding" more than inserting the first section on more than the
normal length. That glue bond even prevents removing a misfitted
joint after more than a few seconds.

Your 'prime glue all fitting then insert won't work. Time you fit one
the fitting on the other end has 'glue set" too stick to insert.

Harry K

[Harry K]

On Jun 18, 3:22 pm, "Danny D." <Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

I suggest you try a 'dry run' of fitting two couplings to a repair
section, glueing up both ends and then try putting a sub of pipe on
each end. First one will go but if you delay more than a second or
two the other one won't got, glue will have set too much already. At
least with all the glues I have used. Trying that procedure in the
bottom of a hole isn't going to work.

Harry K

[Harry K]

Same here. I'll be looking the next time I'm in a good hardware
store.

Harry K

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 08:19:34 -0700, Harry K wrote:

> I suggest you try a 'dry run' of fitting two couplings to a repair
> section,

That's a good idea!

The PVC "cement" is so very fast, that there are only seconds to spare
before it "sets".

I'd guess I have about 10 seconds, maybe even fewer.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 08:14:57 -0700, Harry K wrote:

> On top of that a standard union cannot be slid "all the way on".

OooooooooooooooHhhhhh!

Now I understand *why* trader said to cut the original pipe to
5-3/4 inches for a 6" opening.

If the coupling did *not* have a center ridge, then the math
does work out because you *can* slide the couplings all the
way onto the 5-3/4" pipe!

Now I at least understand what trader was suggesting!

Unfortunately, all the couplings I bought have a center ridge,
so you *can't* slide the coupling all the way onto the pipe.

But, if I remove 3" from that 5-3/4" pipe, the math *does*
work. With 1-1/2" of coupling added to the center 2-3/4" pipe,
that center pipe becomes the 5-3/4" trader theorized.

The only problem is that it will take practice and skill to
glue everything, and then slide the two couplings onto the
2-3/4" pipe and then position it in the opening and slide
the two couplings over to the old pipe.

I suspect I have about 10 seconds, and maybe even about
half that in warm conditions such as now, so, as Harry wrote,
I'll need to practice ahead of time (or eat my mistakes).

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 08:14:57 -0700, Harry K wrote:

> Perhaps there is a "repair union" that does not have that center ridge
> preventing sliding

Thank you Harry for explaining that because I couldn't figure out what
Trader was suggesting (math wise) until you mentioned that a coupler
might exist that doesn't have a center ridge.

All mine have a very definite center ridge, which prevents any pipe
from going into it past that ridge.

I guess I could file out the center ridge - but it seems easier to
just compensate for that center ridge by subtracting roughly two
times 1-1/2" from the repair pipe initial length.

Traders kindly suggested solution seems ingenious.

The only problem is *technique* (as that "glue" sets awfully fast)!

PS: They should make all glues this fantastic!
(yes, I know it's a 'weld').

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 08:20:54 -0700, Harry K wrote:

> I'll be looking the next time I'm in a good hardware store.

Having stared at the two fittings side by side, I'm scratching
my head to find the real *value* of the telescopic fitting over
the union (other than the installation process is a bit easier):
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/13351181/img/13351181.jpg

Telescopic PROS:
- Telescopic makes measuring easier on the installer
- Telescopic slider *may* handle length fluctuations better
- It's slightly lower in height (for space-challenged locations)
- Telescopic doesn't need a "repair pipe" (it only needs a coupling)

Telescopic CONS:
- Telescopic cost about 50% *more* than the union did for me
- Minimum repair is larger with the telescopic than the union
- Telescopic will leak *differently* than does the union (if it leaks)
- Total cost is (far) higher with telescopic than with union

[Oren]

Find a "slow set" PVC cement. Not sure how long it takes to set, but
likely longer than 10 seconds.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:44:56 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Find a "slow set" PVC cement.

Hi Oren,

That's an interesting suggestion. You're always helpful,
and I appreciate that.

Googling, I see this slow set "216 PVC Cement" sets in hours:
http://www.e-zweld.com/products/product_detail.aspx?id=MTA0MQ==

It seems that the "gray" cement is the slow setting stuff:
http://www.pexsupply.com/Hercules-60215-1-pt-Heavy-Body-Slow-Set-PVC-Cement-Gray

[Oren]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:54:38 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:44:56 -0700, Oren wrote:
>
>> Find a "slow set" PVC cement.
>
>Hi Oren,
>
>That's an interesting suggestion. You're always helpful,
>and I appreciate that.
>
>Googling, I see this slow set "216 PVC Cement" sets in hours:
> http://www.e-zweld.com/products/product_detail.aspx?id=MTA0MQ==
>

Bottom of page one has a cure time guide:

<http://www.e-zweld.com/webresources/files/datasheets/216SellSheet.pdf>

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:28:08 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Bottom of page one has a cure time guide:
> <http://www.e-zweld.com/webresources/files/datasheets/216SellSheet.pdf>

Interestingly, I could have used that thicker cement when doing my
oversized couplings over the existing Jandy valves.
"This cement is ideal for joining large diameter PVC pipes & fittings
where the gap between pipes and fittings is large."

The "cure time" is roughly about 2 hours (give or take); but I wonder what
the "setting time" is, as that is more important than the final strength.

[Oren]

If it "cures" in 2 hours, isn't is "set" by then :-\

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:22:55 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:48:04 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > Let's say you have 3 ft of pipe with one 6" section near the
>
> > middle that's bad. You cut out the 6" piece. You cut a new
>
> > piece about 1/4" shorter. Now it will fit easily where the
>
> > bad piece was. You prime/glue all 4 ends of the pipes and
>
> > the two repair couplings. You slide the repair couplings
>
> > ALL THE WAY ONTO THE 5 3/4" repair pipe. Now what
>
> > you have is still 5 3/4" in length. You position the repair pipe
>
> > with the couplings where it goes, then slide the two
>
> > couplings into place over the ends of the existing pipe.
>
>
>
> I love the procedure; I just have a problem with the math,
>
> and, since I plan on trying it out, the math matters.
>
>
>
> The problem I have is that the coupling seems to have an internal
>
> stop at about 1-1/4 inches inward as shown in this photo:
>
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13351228/img/13351228.jpg

That's because the coupling you have is a regular coupling,
not a REPAIR coupling. The one you have has those stops for
convenience when working with pipe where you have room. The
repair coupling has no stops so you can use it for a "repair",
per the above procedure.


>
> Given that,

Given that, you need a repair coupling.

the repair pipe is extended by the remaining amount
>
> on both sides, which is about 1-1/2 inches on each side including
>
> the stop itself and a bit of slop (for a total of 3 inches of
>
> length extension).
>
>
>
> So, given a six-inch opening, if I subtract those extra 3 inches,
>
> that would make a repair pipe of about 3 inches.

You can't make up 3" of missing pipe with couplings.

>
>
>
> If I then subtract the 1/4 inch from those 3 inches, I get the
>
> following dimensions & procedure for the repair pipe:
>
>
>
> 1. Cut a 2-3/4" repair pipe
>
> 2. The total length including the two couplings would be:
>
> 2-3/4" pipe + 1-1/2" coupling + 1-1/2" coupling = 5-3/4"
>
> 3. That should easily fit in the 6-inch opening.

Yeah, it will fit. I'm not going to do the math, but how
much pipe do you then have inside the coupling? Answer:
very little, not enough to make a sound PVC connection.

>
>
>
> a. Prime everything & put glue on everything
>
> b. Place the couplings on the pipe ends (all the way)
>
> c. Insert the pipe in the opening, and slide the couplings outward
>
>
>
> This math, if I work fast, should fix this hole, if I cut out
>
> six inches of pipe. Right?
>
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13343398/img/13343398.jpg
>

No, per above.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:40:20 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 08:14:57 -0700, Harry K wrote:
>
>
>
> > On top of that a standard union cannot be slid "all the way on".
>
>
>
> OooooooooooooooHhhhhh!
>
>
>
> Now I understand *why* trader said to cut the original pipe to
>
> 5-3/4 inches for a 6" opening.
>
>
>
> If the coupling did *not* have a center ridge, then the math
>
> does work out because you *can* slide the couplings all the
>
> way onto the 5-3/4" pipe!
>
>
>
> Now I at least understand what trader was suggesting!
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, all the couplings I bought have a center ridge,
>
> so you *can't* slide the coupling all the way onto the pipe.
>
>

That is the difference. A repair coupling does not have
the stops inside. It will slide all the way on.

>
> But, if I remove 3" from that 5-3/4" pipe, the math *does*
>
> work. With 1-1/2" of coupling added to the center 2-3/4" pipe,
>
> that center pipe becomes the 5-3/4" trader theorized.
>
>
>
> The only problem is that it will take practice and skill to
>
> glue everything, and then slide the two couplings onto the
>
> 2-3/4" pipe and then position it in the opening and slide
>
> the two couplings over to the old pipe.

No, the problem with that is there is so much pipe
missing that little if any pipe will be inside the
coupling. If you take any coupling, the pipe is
designed to go about half way in from each side.
With the above method, it won't be in anywhere near
that far.

>
>
>
> I suspect I have about 10 seconds, and maybe even about
>
> half that in warm conditions such as now, so, as Harry wrote,
>
> I'll need to practice ahead of time (or eat my mistakes).

You don't have much time, that's true. Also, you can forget
about the suggestion of dry fitting. With PVC unless there
is glue, it's nearly impossible to assemble the parts, that is
to get the pipe anywhere close to how far into the socket it
needs to go.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 10:50:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

> If it "cures" in 2 hours, isn't is "set" by then :-\

What I mean is that it might "harden" in, say, 15 seconds, such that it's almost
immovable - which is really what matters. Not how long it takes to get to full
strength.

As a (longer time) analogy, concrete will set in, oh, I don't know,
about a half hour where it's no longer workable - yet it would take much
longer to cure to full hardness (which is about a month I think).

So, to me, the time of importance is how long the glue allows movement.
I assume it will give us the 30 seconds we need to position everything.

If we get those 30 seconds, then we're fine. I've just never used the
stuff - and - I don't see that "setting time" number anywhere.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:01:53 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> you need a repair coupling.

Hi Trader,

My mistake. I had not even realized that a "repair coupling" even existed.
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13360034/img/13360034.png

All I knew was a coupling, and all mine have a center ridge (because
they're *not* repair couplings).

So, thanks for letting me know. The math is much easier with a repair
coupling. All you do is subtract 1/4" from the length of the opening
(as you had said twice). I'm sorry for not getting it until today.

Googling for "Lowes repair coupling", it's funny what came up:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_70105-34146-P232+2_0__?productId=3364868

Heh heh... Not *that* thing again! :)

Apparently they're *both* called a "repair coupling"!

Anyway, googling some more, I find this nice diagram showing what
you were kindly explaining in words for me:
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/Fluid-Tite%20PVC%20Couplings%20Brochure%2040-24-49A%20Print%20LR.pdf

Thanks for the ideas!

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:07:24 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> you can forget about the suggestion of dry fitting.

> unless there is glue, it's nearly impossible to assemble the parts,

This is true. I've gotten them 'stuck' on a few times dry, and even
then, they only go about half way.

It's amazing that they slide fully on once the primer and glue
are there.

PVC is an amazing glue system!

[Oren]

It seems to me that if the PVC cement cures in two hours, you would
have a longer working time. Say 2-3 minutes (slow set) vs the 10-15
seconds (fast set).

You might call the company and ask what the "working time" (?) is for
the slow set, i.e., how long can you adjust the fitting before it
starts to tack-up and not longer moveable / adjustable.

So, I have to defer to those in the know.

[Oren]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:04:27 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:01:53 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
>> you need a repair coupling.
>
>Hi Trader,
>
>My mistake. I had not even realized that a "repair coupling" even existed.
> http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13360034/img/13360034.png
>

Excellent example. Did you draw this?

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:42:41 -0700, Oren wrote:

>>My mistake. I had not even realized that a "repair coupling" even existed.
>> http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13360034/img/13360034.png
>>
>
> Excellent example. Did you draw this?

Hi Oren,
No, I didn't draw it; but it shows pretty much what Trader was
trying to explain to me in words.

The part that I couldn't understand was how the coupling could
slide over the pipe completely; but I didn't know about the lack
of the center ridge.

[Oren]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 21:21:55 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:42:41 -0700, Oren wrote:
>
>>>My mistake. I had not even realized that a "repair coupling" even existed.
>>> http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13360034/img/13360034.png
>>>
>>
>> Excellent example. Did you draw this?
>
>Hi Oren,
>No, I didn't draw it; but it shows pretty much what Trader was
>trying to explain to me in words.
>

I understood Trader. The example you gave is a good picture to show
the concept.

>The part that I couldn't understand was how the coupling could
>slide over the pipe completely; but I didn't know about the lack
>of the center ridge.

Ya gotta fish where the fish are :-\

[tra...@optonline.net]

You would think someone would make some oversize PVC
fittings of the common type so that you could use them
for dry fitting purposes. If I was doing this work
enough where they are really needed, I'd figure out
how to ream out some regular ones.

The vast majority of the time, you don't need
to fit stuff up that close. But the few times you do,
being able to dry fit easily would be a big plus.

Another tip. If you do partially dry fit stuff up
and need to keep the assembly angle the same, you can
put a piece of black tape across the joint. Then
before taking it apart to glue up, cut the tape with
a razor at the joint. Then you glue it up and use
the tape to get the angle back to where it was.

[Danny D.]

On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:27:32 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Another tip. ... you can

> put a piece of black tape across the joint.

That's a nice idea. I could have used it when I had
angled the motor so that it would be out of the way,
yet, the outflow pipe wasn't directly over the basket.

[Tekkie®]

tra...@optonline.net posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

>
> Another tip. If you do partially dry fit stuff up
> and need to keep the assembly angle the same, you can
> put a piece of black tape across the joint. Then
> before taking it apart to glue up, cut the tape with
> a razor at the joint. Then you glue it up and use
> the tape to get the angle back to where it was.

Black sharpie is better.

--
Tekkie