Re: Electrical Short...
Chris Friesen
> Yesterday, just as I was leaving to go to a job, my SO called me
> back and asked if I knew anything about a strange odor coming
> from the back bedroom. The odor, as I soon found out, was smoke.
> Apparently,the surge-protector shorted against the wire shelving --
> and in doing so sparked off a small electrical fire!
That has nothing whatsoever to do with your behaviour, and everything to
do with faulty gear. Anything that could short against the wire shelf
could also short against your skin.
I wouldn't worry about metal shelving any more because of this...get a
new surge protector from a different company. (In any case, whole-house
surge protectors are much more effective than the power-bar type, as
they are much closer to the primary electrical ground.)
Chris
Toller
"Chris Friesen" <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote in message
news:463FA600...@mail.usask.ca...
> Kewless wrote:
>
>> Yesterday, just as I was leaving to go to a job, my SO called me
>> back and asked if I knew anything about a strange odor coming
>> from the back bedroom. The odor, as I soon found out, was smoke.
>> Apparently,the surge-protector shorted against the wire shelving --
>> and in doing so sparked off a small electrical fire!
>
> That has nothing whatsoever to do with your behaviour, and everything to
> do with faulty gear.
This is a joke of some sort. I don't get it, but it is too silly to be
true.
hal...@aol.com
all sorts of wierd things can and do happen, having seen some
myself...
not a troll, just a near disaster
w_tom
> ...
> Awhile back, I bought one of those *trendy* steel-wire bookcases
> for my bedroom office. On one shelf, I set up my monitor so that I
> could use it from bed (bad back). While on the bottom shelf, I put
> the computer itself, along with the surge-protector...
>
> I felt reasonably assured that I had enough insulation -- as
> both computer and monitor have fairly *beefy* plastic bases. As
> it turns out though, I should have been a little more concerned!
>
> Yesterday, just as I was leaving to go to a job, my SO called me
> back and asked if I knew anything about a strange odor coming
> from the back bedroom. The odor, as I soon found out, was smoke.
> and in doing so sparked off a small electrical fire!
You are not the only one who has experienced such problems with plug-
in protectors:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
Better is a simple $4 power strip with that all so important 15 amp
circuit breaker. Short would have only tripped the breaker - would
not contain internal components mislocated where fire is a threat;
such as in those above pictures.
Bud--
> On May 7, 6:05 pm, "Kewless" <Da-...@ron.ron.com> wrote:
>
>>...
>>Awhile back, I bought one of those *trendy* steel-wire bookcases
>>for my bedroom office. On one shelf, I set up my monitor so that I
>>could use it from bed (bad back). While on the bottom shelf, I put
>>the computer itself, along with the surge-protector...
>>
>>I felt reasonably assured that I had enough insulation -- as
>>both computer and monitor have fairly *beefy* plastic bases. As
>> it turns out though, I should have been a little more concerned!
>>
>>Yesterday, just as I was leaving to go to a job, my SO called me
>>back and asked if I knew anything about a strange odor coming
>>from the back bedroom. The odor, as I soon found out, was smoke.
>>Apparently,the surge-protectorshorted against the wire shelving --
>> and in doing so sparked off a small electrical fire!
>
>
> You are not the only one who has experienced such problems with plug-
> in protectors:
> http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
> http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
> http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
For anyone with minimal reading skills the hanford link talks about
`some older model' power strips and specifically references the revised
UL standard, effective 1998, that requires a thermal disconnect as a fix
for overheating MOVs. Overheating was fixed in the US in 1998.
There is no indication in the original post what caused the problem.
--
bud--
Bob
>sitting directly on a metal shelf is not such a good idea. ; - ))
Not really.
You should contact the surge manufacture and tell them what happened. If
they don't stand behind there product then you should not be buying anything
made by them.
"Kewless" <Da-...@ron.ron.com> wrote in message
news:UoN%h.14063$jt2....@newsfe13.lga...
> Who knows? By posting this, it might be that I get to save a life or
> two somewhere down the road...
>
> Awhile back, I bought one of those *trendy* steel-wire bookcases
> for my bedroom office. On one shelf, I set up my monitor so that I
> could use it from bed (bad back). While on the bottom shelf, I put
> the computer itself, along with the surge-protector...
>
> I felt reasonably assured that I had enough insulation -- as
> both computer and monitor have fairly *beefy* plastic bases. As
> it turns out though, I should have been a little more concerned!
>
> Yesterday, just as I was leaving to go to a job, my SO called me
> back and asked if I knew anything about a strange odor coming
> from the back bedroom. The odor, as I soon found out, was smoke.
> Apparently,the surge-protector shorted against the wire shelving --
> and in doing so sparked off a small electrical fire!
>
> The wife and I are feeling pretty darned fortunate today -- all
> we've lost is a printer cable and a surge-protector. And yet, I
> feel slightly embarrassed (and a little guilty) whenever I look
> over at this big black spot that we now have on the carpet. I
> SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER!
>
> Still, I suppose if pride is all I'm down, then I should consider
> myself blessed -- as it's a small price to pay for such an invaluable
> lesson. The moral being that perhaps having my electronics
> sitting directly on a metal shelf is not such a good idea. ; - ))
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, it's not clear how the surge protector "shorted" against the
metal shelving. Something clearly had to be defective and sitting
electronics on a metal shelf should not have anything to do with it.
Noozer
> for my bedroom office. On one shelf, I set up my monitor so that I
> could use it from bed (bad back). While on the bottom shelf, I put
> the computer itself, along with the surge-protector...
> Yesterday, just as I was leaving to go to a job, my SO called me
> back and asked if I knew anything about a strange odor coming
> from the back bedroom. The odor, as I soon found out, was smoke.
> Apparently,the surge-protector shorted against the wire shelving --
> and in doing so sparked off a small electrical fire!
There is sooo much bullshit here....
m...@nunyabiz.com
On 8-May-2007, "Noozer" <dont...@me.here> wrote:
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:27:32 MDT
> Organization: Shaw Residential Internet
> Xref: Hurricane-Charley alt.home.repair:366666
> X-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 16:27:32 MST (be08.lga)
Would that be before or after you entered this thread?
pheeh...@gmail.com
> (In any case, whole-house
> surge protectors are much more effective than the power-bar type, as
> they are much closer to the primary electrical ground.)
>
> Chris
True, you are assured of electrical ground...but you will not protect
from induction on the same circuit (motor switching) as your
electronics.
Also, there is induction from wire to wire in the same run or conduit.
JM$.02
Kewless
On 7-May-2007, Tollerwrote:
> "Chris Friesen" wrote:
> > Kewless wrote:
> >
> >> Yesterday, just as I was leaving to go to a job, my SO called me
> >> back and asked if I knew anything about a strange odor coming
> >> from the back bedroom. The odor, as I soon found out, was smoke.
> >> Apparently,the surge-protector shorted against the wire shelving --
> >> and in doing so sparked off a small electrical fire!
> >
> > That has nothing whatsoever to do with your behaviour, and everything to
> > do with faulty gear.
>
> This is a joke of some sort. I don't get it, but it is too silly to be
> true.
Nope. It's true.
When I posted this I suspected that my experience was fairly uncommon. But
I had no idea that it was so bizarre as to defy belief. Perhaps, I should have called
the National Enquirer instead?
Kewless
On 7-May-2007, w_tomwrote:
> You are not the only one who has experienced such problems with plug-
> in protectors:
> http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
> http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
> http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
>
> Better is a simple $4 power strip with that all so important 15 amp
> circuit breaker. Short would have only tripped the breaker - would
> not contain internal components mislocated where fire is a threat;
> such as in those above pictures.
The first thing I did (after examining its charred remains) was to toss my
surge-protector in the trash. It never occurred to me to take pictures.
I wish I had...
Kewless
On 8-May-2007, Budwrote:
> w_tom wrote:
> > You are not the only one who has experienced such problems with plug-
> > in protectors:
> > http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> > http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
> > http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
> > http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
>
> For anyone with minimal reading skills the hanford link talks about
> `some older model' power strips and specifically references the revised
> UL standard, effective 1998, that requires a thermal disconnect as a fix
> for overheating MOVs. Overheating was fixed in the US in 1998.
I have no idea how old this thing was or even where I got it. It could be that
it was pre' 98...
Kewless
On 7-May-2007, hal...@aol.com wrote:
> Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Chris Friesen" wrote:
> > > Kewless wrote:
> >
> > >> Yesterday, just as I was leaving to go to a job, my SO called me
> > >> back and asked if I knew anything about a strange odor coming
> > >> from the back bedroom. The odor, as I soon found out, was smoke.
> > >> Apparently,the surge-protector shorted against the wire shelving --
> > >> and in doing so sparked off a small electrical fire!
> >
> > > That has nothing whatsoever to do with your behaviour, and everything to
> > > do with faulty gear.
> >
> > This is a joke of some sort. I don't get it, but it is too silly to be
> > true.
>
> all sorts of wierd things can and do happen, having seen some
> myself...
>
> not a troll, just a near disaster
Yes, thank you.
Kewless
On 7-May-2007, Kewless wrote:
<<Snip>>
> Still, I suppose if pride is all I'm down, then I should consider
> myself blessed -- as it’s a small price to pay for such an invaluable
> lesson.
<<Snip>>
I want to thank you ALL for your responses. As a whole they've gone
a long way to help patch things up btwn me and the Mrs. [Although
nothing's been said, I've been getting a lot of those *sideways* glances
ever since this thing happened. It must be like that old adage: You can
cut down a whole backyard full of trees and no one thinks you're a
lumberjack. But have one little fire on a computer you set up........ ]
If I've learned anything, it's that next time something like this happens,
it might be wise to do a little investigating BEFORE I rush to take the
blame for something I may not even have done. Whether it's my fault
or not is hard to say. But it does leave room for doubt...
Chris Lewis
> If I've learned anything, it's that next time something like this happens,
> it might be wise to do a little investigating BEFORE I rush to take the
> blame for something I may not even have done. Whether it's my fault
> or not is hard to say. But it does leave room for doubt...
Yup. It's a good idea to spend a little time trying to figure out _why_
this happened. Was anything cracked/chafed and shorted to the metal
shelving (eg: electrical burn marks on the shelving), or did it look
like the device itself burned out?
Calling someone with the make and model describing what happened
is a good idea. Eg: consumer protection agencies, the store,
and the manufacturer if you can identify/reach it.
Not as a complaint, but a warning. It's how safety recalls happen.
Many stores/manufacturers really do want to find out about these.
Before something a lot worse and more expensive happens.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
w_tom
> I have no idea how old this thing was or even where I got it. It could be that
> it was pre' 98...
Bud is spinning myths again. He promotes plug-in protectors. The
changes that Bud was talking about were implemented in the late 1980s
after so many publications - including two mid-1980s PC Magazine
articles - showed how frequently this problem would occur. In the
meantime, even those scary pictures include protectors that are
supposed to be even less likely to spit 'sparks and flames'.
It remains a dangerous problem which is another reason why we don't
want protectors adjacent to flammable materials. Just another reason
why a 'whole house' protector is preferred. Properly sized. Safely
located. Costs tens of times less money per protected appliance.
And is sold by manufacturers with far more responsible names such as
Leviton, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Square D, Siemens, GE, and others.
If the power strip had shorted to rack, then its 15 amp circuit
breaker would have tripped - no smoke; no sparks. Furthermore, if
power strip shorted to metal rack, then incoming electricity is the
power strip. What is an outgoing path back to breaker box? If no
outgoing path through the rack, then short was not through that rack.
Again, a more common problem even with UL1449 approval is:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
Does your protector have UL1449 certification? Purchased after late
1980s - then it probably does. It met those protection standards and
yet still did as other certified protectors sometimes do when grossly
undersized, excessively profitable, and (by the way) don't even claim
to provide protection from surges that actually harm electronics.
Undersized? Yes, it sell more protectors when it is damaged by a
trivial surge. Effective protectors earth surges, are not damaged,
and leave you completely unaware of how effective it really is. A
protector that is not damaged - that does its job - does not get hyped
recommendations by the naive. But when undersized, then those scary
pictures happen more frequently.
More reasons why one properly earthed 'whole house' protector is the
safer and superior solution compared to grossly undersized plug-in
protectors all over the house.
Bud--
> On May 9, 9:31 am, "Kewless" <Kewl...@nunyabiz.com> wrote:
>
>>I have no idea how old this thing was or even where I got it. It could be that
>>it was pre' 98...
>
>
> Bud is spinning myths again. He promotes plug-in protectors.
I only promote accurate information. It is w_'w *belief* that plug-in
suppressors can't work. Lacking technical arguments he resorts to
pathetic scare tactics.
> The
> changes that Bud was talking about were implemented in the late 1980s
> after so many publications - including two mid-1980s PC Magazine
> articles - showed how frequently this problem would occur. In the
> meantime, even those scary pictures include protectors that are
> supposed to be even less likely to spit 'sparks and flames'.
If w_ could only read and think he would know that HIS hanford link says
overheating MOVs were fixed with a revised UL 1449 standard.
From the hanford link:
"Surge protection devices in some older model multi-outlet power strips
can overheat and create a potential fire hazard."
Why does hanford say both "some" and "older"?
and:
"Underwriters Laboratories Standard UL 1449, 2nd Edition, Standard For
Safety For Transient Voltage Surge Suppressors, now requires thermal
protection in power strips. This protection is provided by a thermal
fuse located next to the MOV."
If w_ knew anything about UL 1449 he would know the 2nd edition was in
1998 - 18 years after his PCMag articles and 9 years ago.
> Again, a more common problem even with UL1449 approval is:
> http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
> http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
> http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
The scare tactic again. Obsolete by his own hanford link.
The 2nd and 3rd link are the same.
Zerosurge is a manufacturer with a competing surge protection scheme
(which w_ says doesn't work).
None of these links say there is any problem with suppressors under the
current UL standard. None of them even says the problem units had a UL
label.
> and (by the way) don't even claim
> to provide protection from surges that actually harm electronics.
Another really stupid statement.
>
> Undersized? Yes, it sell more protectors when it is damaged by a
> trivial surge.
Lacking technical arguments w_ also relies on "undersized" - a red
herring. Plug-in suppressors with very high ratings are readily
available. And the surge expert at the National Institute of Standards
and Technology wrote "in fact, the major cause of TVSS [surge
suppressor] failures is a temporary overvoltage, rather than an
unusually large surge."
--
bud--
w_tom
> If w_ could only read and think he would know that HIS hanford link says
> overheating MOVs were fixed with a revised UL 1449 standard.
> From the hanford link:
> "Surge protection devices in some older model multi-outlet power strips
> can overheat and create a potential fire hazard."
>
> Why does hanford say both "some" and "older"?
Bud spins subjective words into a wild speculation. "Some"?
"Older"? Is that a technical answer?
If those 'scary picture' protectors did not meet UL1449 - a standard
for 25 years, then why not cite that specific fact? Bud is so
desperate to prove a point - to promote his product - as to cite
"Some" and "Older" as definitive facts. Only a junk scientist would
advance such rationalizations. Protectors that even meet UL1449 2nd
edition create those scary pictures.
How does UL1449 2nd edition make 'scary pictures' less likely?
Disconnect protector components faster. Abandon an adjacent appliance
to the surge. Instead protect a power strip protector. What kind of
protection is that? Ineffective. When was a protector's task to
protect itself; not the appliance?
UL1449 says a protector need not even provide protection. A
protector can completely fail during UL1449 testing - and still obtain
UL1449 approval. UL does not care if protector disconnects so quickly
as to provide zero protection. UL1449 only wants no 'sparks and
flames' during smaller test waveforms.
Therein lies the tradeoff. Either claim to protect an appliance and
suffer those scary pictures. Or disconnect MOVs (protector
components) so fast that internal appliance protection protects that
appliance. Latter condition indicated by a 'failure' light. As
noted earlier, that 'failed' indicator is an unacceptable condition
often associated with grossly undersized and overpriced plug-in
protectors.
No effective protector fails quickly. But doing in plug-in
protectors can achieve a UL1449 2nd edition approval - while
protecting that excessively high profit margin.
Let's view that profit margin. Take a $3 power strip. Add some
$0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 or $100 as a power strip protector. Make
sure the protector components disconnect so quickly that it can obtain
a UL1449 approval. IOW protect the protector - not appliances. No
wonder plug-in protectors don't even claim to protect from the
typically destructive type of surge. View it yourself. Where does it
list protection from each type of surge? It does not. More important
is to disconnect MOVs so that scary pictures occur less often.
'Whole house' protectors such as in Lowes, Home Depot, and
electrical supply houses (not sold in Sears, Wal-Mart, Circuit City,
Radio Shack, Staples, etc) have that essential earthing wire AND
remain functional after surges. An effective protector shunts a
surge to earth, remains functional, and never lets a homeowner know
that a surge even existed. Effective: remains functional as in not
spitting 'sparks and flames'.
That power strip protector would not have shorted to closet rack. A
short would have been eliminated by a 15 amp circuit breaker. But
internal components may have spit 'sparks or flame' during a surge too
small to overwhelm other household appliances. Just another problem
with plug-in protectors. Plug-in protectors may fail during a surge
so small that appliances were not harmed. Catastrophic failures are
not acceptable from more responsible manufacturers. Protector inside
a closet failed catastrophically during that same 'so trivial' surge?
No wonder superior protectors are located where?
At the service entrance and not inside a closet of flammable
clothes; not on a desktop of flammable papers; not behind furniture
in dust balls on a rug. A superior 'whole house' protector also has
what that closet protector would not - 'less than 10 foot' connection
to earth. Smoking protector inside a closet - just another example of
why plug-in protectors are not effective protection.
tra...@optonline.net
w_tom has reached a new level of silliness. When a manufacturer puts
surge protecting components inside say a DVD player, it's a great
thing. Not only will it protect the electronics from a surge, it
will do so despite the fact that the only ground it has is the same
ground a plug in protector would have. And it's perfectly safe to sit
the DVD player in a bedroom without fear that's it's gonna burn the
house down.
But install the same surge components into a power strip and it's a
death trap unacceptable for a living space. No, wait, not the same
components. BIGGER components, able to handle an even bigger surge.
It's gonna spew fire and also won't protect at all against a surge
because it's impossible to do surge protection without a true nearby
earth ground. Funny if their so unsafe, they are UL listed, ain't
it?
Sure there have been problems with some surge protectors. There have
been problems and safety recalls with some cars too, haven't there?
Should we stop buying them too?
Bud--
> Bud is so
> desperate to prove a point - to promote his product
To quote w_: "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association
with surge protectors is I have some. And I don't recommend people use
plug-in suppressors. I only recommend people make decisions based on
facts, not lies and junk science.
> Protectors that even meet UL1449 2nd
> edition create those scary pictures.
A lie w_ keeps repeating. With no technical arguments against plug-in
protectors all he has left is the lie. Provide a link that says
UL-1449-2ed is a problem.
>
> How does UL1449 2nd edition make 'scary pictures' less likely?
> Disconnect protector components faster. Abandon an adjacent appliance
> to the surge.
Another version of the “undersized” red herring. Suppressors are readily
available with very high ratings.
> No
> wonder plug-in protectors don't even claim to protect from the
> typically destructive type of surge.
A repetition of the “really stupid statement”. Plug-in suppressors have
MOVs from H-N, H-G, N–G. Which surge mode does that not cover? Never
explained by w_ (because there is no explanation).
>
> 'Whole house' protectors ...
> have that essential earthing wire
This is the *real* issue for w_. He believes you cannot suppress
surges without a short wire to earth. But the IEEE guide to surges and
surge suppression at:
http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf
explains that plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping the voltage
on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the suppressor,
not earthing. The guide says earth grounding occurs elsewhere. The IEEE
is the major association of electrical engineers in the US and publishes
standards on surges. But poor w_ can’t find anyone who agrees with him.
So he lies with pathetic scare tactics. And sets up a straw man, a
“grossly undersized” suppressor, when suppressors with high ratings are
readily available.
The IEEE guide above (the link originally came from w_) has excellent
information. And it says plug-in suppressors are effective. In the only
2 examples of surge suppression, plug-in suppressors are used. I guess
the IEEE doesn’t know about the “sparks and flames”.
Another excellent guide on surges and protection is from the National
Institute of Standards and Technology at:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
and also says plug-in suppressors are effective.
So believe the IEEE, NIST and hanford.
Or believe the lies and junk science from w_. He has no links that
support his beliefs.
--
bud--
w_tom
> w_tom has reached a new level of silliness. When a manufacturer puts
> surge protecting components inside say a DVD player, it's a great
> thing. Not only will it protect the electronics from a surge, it
> will do so despite the fact that the only ground it has is the same
> ground a plug in protector would have. And it's perfectly safe to sit
> the DVD player in a bedroom without fear that's it's gonna burn the
> house down.
Did trader assume that MOVs are inside appliances? MOVs - that one
type of surge component - once was inside appliances such as Apple
II. No longer. MOVs inside appliances or inside power strip
protectors were not effective. Anything that a power strip protector
might accomplish is already inside appliances. And its not MOVs as
trader has assumed.
For example, integrated circuits are now defined to withstand 2000
and 15,000 volts without damage. That is IEC6100-4-2 and other
standards. Internal protection is constructed in three layers -
system, board, and inside each semiconductor. Protection that is
already inside electronic appliances is understood by those who work
with things beyond an electrician's grasp. Internal protection that
naysayers often do not even know exists.
w_tom provided numerous sources of facts. But even sources cited by
bud demonstrate same. Bud would have everyone believe his magic plug-
in protector works even without earthing. Bud would have everyone
believe IEEE, et al recommend plug-in protectors. Wrong. IEEE makes
recommendations in standards - not in papers. Many IEEE Standards
each define one thing essential for protection: earthing. Not a
protector. Earthing.
Bud's own citation (Page 42 Figure 8) shows TVs being damaged - 8000
volts destructively - because a protector was too close to appliances
and too far from earthing.
What does a protector do? Earth. A protector with a short (ie
'less than 10 foot') connection to earth provides a non-destructive
surge path. Even 1752 lightning rods did same for Ben Franklin. But
a protector too far from earth ground and too close to TVs .... that
is Page 42 Figure 8 in Bud's citation - TVs destroyed.
All electronic appliances contain internal protection. MOVs once
were inside appliances - too close to transistors and too far from
earth ground. No longer installed - and trader should have known
that. Even before PC existed, industry standards have defined
protection inside electronic appliances. Trader should have also
known that fact.
Effective surge protection earths a typically destructive surge so
that 8000 volts does not pass through TVs - page 42 figure 8. How
well does a protector 'handle' a surge? Well how long is that
earthing wire? Sharp bends inside junction boxes? Bundled with other
wires? More than 10 feet? Factors that make a plug-in protector NOT
earthed. One protector, properly earthed, means massively improved
protection for tens of times less money. Without MOVs inside
appliances.
Now wonder so many responsible manufacturers such as GE, Siemens,
Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Intermatic, Square D ... sell 'whole house'
protectors. Some models are available in Lowes and Home Depot for
less than $50. No wonder effective protectors have a dedicated wire
just for earthing.
Bud hopes the lurker will not notice what his other citation says:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
Adobe page 8 (page 6) says:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
> "arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
> neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm. So
> a name that makes sense would be "surge diverter"
> but it was not picked. So, for the rest of this
> booklet, we will stick to the most popular "surge
> protector".
Bud also posts that protectors clamp - but do not earth? Earthing
is defined as necessary by his own citations. A protector is not
protection. A protector is nothing more than a connecting device to
protection. An effective protector 'shunts' a surge to protection.
What is the protection? Earth ground.
Effective protectors shunt (clamp, connect, divert) to earth ground
long before that surge can get anywhere near to appliances (ie the
TV). How to make that protector better? Enhance the protection - the
earthing system. Even Bud's citations note that - in direct
contradition to what Bud has posted. Earth so that protection already
inside all appliances is not overwhelmed.
trader apparently has confused standard protection inside all
appliances with MOVs. One 'whole house' protector properly earthed
means protection inside all electronics appliances need not be
overwhelmed. As Bud's Page 42 Figure 8 demonstrates - a protector too
close to appliances and too far from earth ground may '8000 volts'
overwhelm and destroy internal appliance protection.
Superior and effectively earthed protection for about $1 per
protected appliance. Installed so that protection already inside
every appliance is not overwhelmed. trader - did you know of IEC6100
and other standards that define. for example, 2000 and 15,000 volt
internal protection - and without MOVs? It's not something taught to
electricians.
Bud--
>
> w_tom provided numerous sources of facts.
Never seen - a source that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.
Or that UL-1449-2ed is a problem.
> Bud would have everyone
> believe IEEE, et al recommend plug-in protectors. Wrong. IEEE makes
> recommendations in standards - not in papers. Many IEEE Standards
> each define one thing essential for protection: earthing. Not a
> protector. Earthing.
With a minimal ability to read anyone, except apparently w_, can look at
the IEEE guide, pdf page 4 and find that the guide was peer-reviewed in
the IEEE and represents the views of the IEEE.
But w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge
protection must use earthing. w_ must deny what is obvious to protect
his belief in earthing.
>
> Bud's own citation (Page 42 Figure 8) shows TVs being damaged - 8000
> volts destructively - because a protector was too close to appliances
> and too far from earthing.
[The illustration, from the IEEE guide, shows a surge on a CATV cable
and 2 TVs, TV1 has a plug-in suppressor.]
The new lie.
The “protector” does not cause any damage. The “protector” protects TV1.
The “protector” reduces the surge at the TV2 from 10,000V to 8,000V.
With minimal reading ability anyone, almost, can read the text - "to
protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required".
The IEEE guide says plug–in suppressors are effective.
But w_ must discredit the guide (as above) and distort the guide (here)
to protect his religious belief in earthing.
>
> What does a protector do? Earth. A protector with a short (ie
> 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth provides a non-destructive
> surge path.
The religious belief in earthing #2. But the IEEE guide, as stated
numerous times, explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping
the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the
suppressor, not earthing. The IEEE guide says earth grounding occurs
elsewhere.
> But
> a protector too far from earth ground and too close to TVs .... that
> is Page 42 Figure 8 in Bud's citation - TVs destroyed.
The new lie repeated.
>
> Effective surge protection earths a typically destructive surge so
> that 8000 volts does not pass through TVs - page 42 figure 8.
The new lie #3.
> ... 'whole house'
> protectors. Some models are available in Lowes and Home Depot for
> less than $50.
Challenged by many people.
Lowes online has no ‘whole house’ protectors.
Home Depot has no ‘whole house protectors near $50.
Yet another of w_’s ‘facts’ which he can provide no link to substantiate.
> No wonder effective protectors have a dedicated wire
> just for earthing.
The religious belief in earthing #3.
>
> Bud hopes the lurker will not notice what his other citation says:
> http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
> Adobe page 8 (page 6) says:
>
>>You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
>>"arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
>>neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
>>divert it to ground, where it can do no harm. So
>>a name that makes sense would be "surge diverter"
>>but it was not picked. So, for the rest of this
>>booklet, we will stick to the most popular "surge
>>protector".
What does the NIST guide actually say about plug–in suppressors?
They are "the easiest solution".
and:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances,
No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or
CATV or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link
appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that
does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance
is useless."
Again w_ must distort what a guide actually says to protect his
religious belief in earthing.
>
> Bud also posts that protectors clamp - but do not earth? Earthing
> is defined as necessary by his own citations. A protector is not
> protection. A protector is nothing more than a connecting device to
> protection. An effective protector 'shunts' a surge to protection.
> What is the protection? Earth ground.
The religious belief in earthing #4.
I only repeat what the IEEE guide says - plug-in suppressors work
primarily by clamping, not earthing.
> As Bud's Page 42 Figure 8 demonstrates - a protector too
> close to appliances and too far from earth ground may '8000 volts'
> overwhelm and destroy internal appliance protection.
The new lie #4.
Want to know if plug–in suppressors work? Read the IEEE and/or NIST
guides. Both guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.
Then read w_’s sources:
Never a link that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.
Never a link that says UL-1449-2ed is a problem.
Never a link to a $50 ‘whole house’ suppressor.
All you get is w_'s beliefs.
Bizarre claim - plug-in surge suppressors don't work
No sources.
Distort or attempt to discredit opposing sources.
Attempt to discredit opponents.
w_ is a purveyor of junk science.
--
bud--