Generators, run on nat. gas....

[Existential Angst]

Awl --

I was just informed of the existence of these, here's an example:
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Generac-5837-Standby-Generator/p5524.html?utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=shop+portals

$1700 (for 7 kW) doesn't seem too bad (altho 25 A x 240 V calcs out to 6
kW -- <sigh>).
They have a 17 kW for about $3500.

This seems like a really good idea, just for the lack of carburetor alone!
And of course the lack of stored gasoline....

Altho I (miraculously) escaped the wrath of this last early snow, 3 million
other people didn't, and overall I have (had) disconcertingly frequent power
problems, and should proly prepare.
As of a day or two ago, over 100,000 are STILL without power, mostly in CT.

Any comments, experiences generator-wise? Comments on this particular
brand, other brands?
Generac seems to have some good SEO people on board, judging from search
results. :)
--
EA

[Stormin Mormon]

I do have a gasoline generator, which helped me through the
four day cut, in 2003. Consider your needs. And consider if
natural gas is dependable, in your area. Might want propane,
or diesel unit.

Consider the personal aspects.

Do you want to stand out like a lighthouse in a dark harbor?
Do you want your neighbors to demand to run power cords to
thier houses, and you can be Angst Power and Light?

Are you ready for when your neighbors over amp the unit, and
you have to unplug a couple of them, after warning them
several times, and they get angry and light your generator
on fire?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4ec02134$0$28384$607e...@cv.net...

[des...@verizon.net]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> writes:

> I do have a gasoline generator, which helped me through the
> four day cut, in 2003. Consider your needs. And consider if
> natural gas is dependable, in your area. Might want propane,
> or diesel unit.

The only time natural gas fails, there's usually just a big
crater left behind. Unless you're using LP, natural gas is
way at the top of the reliability list.

> Consider the personal aspects.
>
> Do you want to stand out like a lighthouse in a dark harbor?
> Do you want your neighbors to demand to run power cords to
> thier houses, and you can be Angst Power and Light?

You know what? Most people get a good feeling from helping other
people. I thought you did too.

In this last storm I was on both the receiving and giving end.
I think we all came out ahead.

--
Dan Espen

[Home Guy]

Existential Angst wrote:

> I was just informed of the existence of these

Honda (I think it was Honda) was making nat-gas furnaces for the Jap
market that included some sort of AC generator that could power the
furnace and supply maybe 1000 watts of extra juice. This was about 4 or
5 years ago.

Then there are nat-gas powered AC units, something that really hasn't
gained much press here in US/Canada (at least not for the residential
market).

I really would like to power more things off nat-gas for the home,
especially electricity and AC.

And I really would like to store some decent amount of nat-gas (sort of
like playing the markets - buy it in the summer when it's cheap, use it
through the winter when everyone else is paying more).

I know this is getting off-topic, but when will we consumers be able to
buy large quantities of gasoline, natural gas, and even electricity on
some sort of futures market for use at home (or our own car) ?

(not sure why this was x-posted to metalworking...)

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 13, 2:57 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Awl --
>

> I was just informed of the existence of these, here's an example:http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Generac-5837-Standby-Generato...

>
> $1700 (for 7 kW) doesn't seem too bad (altho 25 A x 240 V calcs out to 6
> kW -- <sigh>).
> They have a 17 kW for about $3500.
>
> This seems like a really good idea, just for the lack of carburetor alone!
> And of course the lack of stored gasoline....
>
> Altho I (miraculously) escaped the wrath of this last early snow, 3 million
> other people didn't, and overall I have (had) disconcertingly frequent power
> problems, and should proly prepare.
> As of a day or two ago, over 100,000 are STILL without power, mostly in CT.
>
> Any comments, experiences generator-wise?  Comments on this particular
> brand, other brands?
> Generac seems to have some good SEO people on board, judging from search
> results.  :)
> --
> EA

I have a neighbor that had a Generac automatic generator
that ran on natural gas. He paid $7K for it about 5 years ago.
It failed after 4 hours of use during the recent hurricane.
Company that installed it told him it's not worth fixing and
he bought a new one.

My two cents is this. The automatic transfer generators
add compexity and more sources of failure as well as
cost. For under $1000 you can buy a portable generator,
an interlockit kit for your main panel, and an inlet to connect
the generator, as well as a natural gas conversion kit. Some
kits are permanent, others allow selecting between nat
gas, propane, or gasoline.

IMO the automatic systems make sense if there isn't
going to be someone there to connect the generator and
start it up. Otherwise a portable that you can connect
when needed as well as have for other possible portable
uses and which costs a lot less could be a better choice.

And in my recommended solution, if the generator is
trashed, you can buy a whole new one for $600 or so.

[Spehro Pefhany]

At $1,250, something like this would appeal to me if I lived in an
area with unreliable power:

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=prod2450243#desc

It doesn't include a transfer switch, though. There are some systems
(such as the furnace and gas water heater electrics) that you'd want
powered in a long blackout.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[Ed Huntress]

"Home Guy" wrote in message news:4EC04506...@Guy.com...

====================================================================

FWIW ( and even less related), back in the late '70s, when fuel prices were
out of sight, several large office buildings in NYC installed natural-gas
co-generation units for electricity and heating.

Here's the part that got me: They were based on Chevy 396 V8s. The company
that installed them said that life was unknown in those engines running
natural gas, but it was many times their life running gasoline.

After the petroleum crisis was over, I never heard another word about them.
One was in a building just a few blocks from where I worked at the time, in
midtown. Skyscrapers don't really need a lot of heat. They have so much
waste heat that some of them actually run air conditioners in the winter.

--
Ed Huntress

[Stormin Mormon]

I've found NG to be very reliable. Still, as the world gets
more uncertain, it's a valid question.

"Helping" others. Please realize that I've had a LOT of
people want me to do things for them. And many of them
cheerfully wanted, and sometimes with desperation, demanded
me to be responsible for this or that. I've met a lot of
users, and a lot of leeches. I've met some people who I wish
I hadn't met. My perspective is changing over the years, and
as society goes more and more into the mode of "it's someone
else responsibility". These are the people who really stand
out in my mind.

If you and your neighbors worked as a team, that's terrific
and wonderful. I've had very, very few moments when any of
my neighbors has helped me out in any way. I can think of
one, off hand, in sixteen years. Make that two, as I think
some more.

You may be the next victim of people who are establishing
depenadnce on you. Be careful.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

<des...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:icobwfb...@verizon.net...

[Stormin Mormon]

Generators are a high theft item. They also need at least
one chain and padlock, and preferably armed overwatch while
they are in operation.

I like your lower cost interlock and inlet. Makes good
sense, to me.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

<tra...@optonline.net>
wrote in message
news:3fcc6503-4a8c-4a7e...@i6g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...

[J. Clarke]

In article <icobwfb...@verizon.net>, des...@verizon.net says...

The guy next door to me has a Generac. Ran fine for four days--he did
shut it down every day and check the oil and topped it up once.

None of that stuff happened to him.

[rangerssuck]

I remember seeing something on TV a few years ago about a gasoline
futures market for consumers and fleets. You could buy in for as
little as $50. Interesting concept.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

>> I know this is getting off-topic, but when will we consumers be able to
>> buy large quantities of gasoline, natural gas, and even electricity on
>> some sort of futures market for use at home (or our own car) ?

You can do it now. Just buy and sell futures. If you work it right, all
the folks who don't own them will be paying the difference between your
current gas bill, and what you paid for it when it was cheaper.

When you consume your portion of it doesn't matter.

LLoyd

[rangerssuck]

On Nov 13, 2:57 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:

> Awl --
>
> I was just informed of the existence of these, here's an example:http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Generac-5837-Standby-Generato...

>
> $1700 (for 7 kW) doesn't seem too bad (altho 25 A x 240 V calcs out to 6
> kW -- <sigh>).
> They have a 17 kW for about $3500.
>
> This seems like a really good idea, just for the lack of carburetor alone!
> And of course the lack of stored gasoline....
>
> Altho I (miraculously) escaped the wrath of this last early snow, 3 million
> other people didn't, and overall I have (had) disconcertingly frequent power
> problems, and should proly prepare.
> As of a day or two ago, over 100,000 are STILL without power, mostly in CT.
>
> Any comments, experiences generator-wise?  Comments on this particular
> brand, other brands?
> Generac seems to have some good SEO people on board, judging from search
> results.  :)
> --
> EA

So, along these lines, I was wondering what would be involved in
modifying my Subaru gasoline-powered generator to run from Nat Gas.
after having worked as a motorcycle mechanic years ago, I truly hate
the smell of gasoline, and it's virtually impossible to pour 6 gallons
into the generator's tank without spilling at least a few drops. Even
with nitrile gloves, I still have to scrub my hands to make the smell
go away.

The 5500W generator will run about 14 hours lightly loaded, but it
still means at least one trip to the gas station (if you can find an
open one that has gas) and two refillis of the genny per day. It would
be great to have gas power.I have a manual transfer switch, and no
need for an automatic one. All of my critical stuff is on batter UPS
power which gives me plenty of time to fire up the generator.

As for neighbors, we all share. There a lots of people on my block
with generators, as our power has been, well, shitty in the past feww
years. What I seem to be loaning out more than electricity is
extension cords, of which I have plenty. Since I installed the
transfer swirtch, I don't really need the extensions, so the neighbors
are welcome to them.

In this last storm, one of my neighbor's generator died. The moteor
ran fine, but it put out zero volts (well, about 1.25 volts). It was a
bad cap (12uF, 325VAC), and I didn't have one in stock. Found one at
Granger, but they were closed. That's when I learned something really
cool - For an additional $50, they'll send someone to open the store -
any time, night or day. My neighbor jumped all over that - $8 for the
cap, $50 for the store opening and His wife is gonna cook me up a mess
of ribs for my trouble.

In the previous storm, I ran extensions to three neighbors to run
their sump pumps, and we spent the rest of the day polishing off a
bottle of bourbon, and they bought me cans of gasoline.

So, contrary to Stormin's experience, dealing with my neighbors
through stuff like this has been fine. I worried that it might become
like the Twilight Zone episode where the guy has a f**ck of a time
keeping his neighbors from overrunning his bomb shelter, but nothing
like that has happened.

But, does anybody know if it would be possible to do a natural gas
conversion to my 13(I think) HP Subaru?

[Too_Many_Tools]

On Nov 13, 4:28 pm, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

> trashed, you can buy a whole new one for $600 or so.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Do you have a link to the conversion kits that allow gas, propane and
NG selection all in one?

TMT

[aemeijers]

Assuming the Generac was installed and maintained properly, and the
automagic controls did the regular cycling (once a month for an hour?)
to make sure nothing froze up, I'd be leaning on dealer and manufacturer
over that short a lifespan. It had at most a hundred hours on it? I
certainly wouldn't eat a failed unit, unless it was my mistake that
killed it. No good reason such an installation shouldn't last for
30+years. Or was neighbor overloading it trying to light up the whole
neighborhood or something?

--
aem sends...

[someone]

I converted a smaller Honda generator a couple or years ago, using a kit
from http://www.propane-generators.com/ . It still runs well. I can use
gasoline, propane or NG.

It wasn't very hard to install, although one part they don't supply is a
little bit of tubing to enxend the vacuum line.

--
42 days until The winter celebration (Sunday December 25 2011 12:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"The inspiration of the Bible depends on the credulity of him who
reads." -- Robert G. Ingersoll

[Stormin Mormon]

He's fortunate that some neighbors are kind.
Me, well, my confidence in mankind isn't that
generous.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.292a252ca...@hamster.jcbsbsdomain.local...

> Do you want to stand out like a lighthouse in a dark
> harbor?
> Do you want your neighbors to demand to run power cords to
> thier houses, and you can be Angst Power and Light?

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:16:29 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
<range...@gmail.com> wrote:



>
>The 5500W generator will run about 14 hours lightly loaded, but it
>still means at least one trip to the gas station (if you can find an
>open one that has gas) and two refillis of the genny per day.

Why would you run it 14 hours a day? Unless you are in very frigid
weather and the heat must run all the time. I'd run it for an hour or
so every four to keep the refrigerators and freezer cold, but I'd not
keep it going all the time. Considering the scarcity of gas and the
work to feed it, I'd use it sparingly and enjoy the quiet.

[Stormin Mormon]

I can't imagine a 14 hour day of generator run. I'd figure
an hour ever several hours for heat, and refrigeration. Then
work around other things. Candles and other lamps for light
and trace ammounts of heat. Survival mode requires different
behaviours.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:0m21c7t5vf4nc1dpk...@4ax.com...

[aemeijers]

On 11/13/2011 10:38 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I can't imagine a 14 hour day of generator run. I'd figure
> an hour ever several hours for heat, and refrigeration. Then
> work around other things. Candles and other lamps for light
> and trace ammounts of heat. Survival mode requires different
> behaviours.
>

Chuckle. Ran into that syndrome making flyaway packages for forward ops
in sandbox. (You'd think non-service DoD agencies would be
common-serviced by one of the military services, but no, gotta roll our
own, with mostly non-mil-spec hardware,) Anyway, people doing 90-180 day
tours were always pissed when their comms and IT capability were not as
good as they were used to, back in CONUS.

What part of 'forward area' did they not understand when they
volunteered for the deployment?

--
aem sends...

[Paul Drahn]

Did you forget to include the 12 volt charging system in your kw
computation?

Paul

[rangerssuck]

On Nov 13, 10:38 pm, "Stormin Mormon"

"Survival mode" demands that I be able to work, rather than sitting
around enjoying the quiet while my power is out for four days. Last
month, I had my cell phone tethered to a windows machine and used
internet connection sharing to power up my whole network. With Verizon
4G, it was almost as good as my cable connection, though I didn't have
my static IPs.

I also have a sump pump that, during a particularly rainy period, runs
as often as every two minutes. If it doesn't run, "enjoying the quiet"
rapidly turns into cleaning up water from the basement floor.

Point is, I use my generator for more than running the fridge and
furnace. And that was, byu the way, 14 hours at a time before
refueling. I actually ran it 24 hours a day, shutting down only for
refueling.

[Gunner Asch]

Absolutely correct.


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 13, 10:38 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

During the hurricane in August I ran mine for about 2 hours
in the morning, then about 3 hours at night. Main issue
was keeping refrigerator and one freezer OK. The 3 hours
of lights would be enough at night, but I was spending most
of my time at a friends house who had power.

In winter, running it a bit every few hours as needed for
heat as you suggest, then a few hours at night for
lights, microwave should be all that's needed. Of course
there are folks that want an automatic start system
that will provide power 24/7. But that's overkill for me
and I would not want to subject neighbors or myself to
all the noise.

[tra...@optonline.net]

http://www.propane-generators.com/

Check out the type 4 kit.

[bob haller]

generators running on natural gas produce about 20% less power than on
gasoline.

plan on having some extra power to help neighbors, who will help keep
you safe..

having a inverter to run some lights off a car battery is a good idea,
for quiet times

[J. Clarke]

In article <0m21c7t5vf4nc1dpk...@4ax.com>, e...@snet.net
says...

The recent outage in New England happened during a snowstorm you know.

[J. Clarke]

In article <f2e8c91f-8ced-47ca-8046-
6ab444...@p1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, tra...@optonline.net says...

What noise would that be? The neighbor's system makes no more noise in
my house than my refrigerator does.

[J. Clarke]

In article <j9q17t$32o$1...@dont-email.me>, cayoung61
**spamblock##@hotmail.com says...

>
> He's fortunate that some neighbors are kind.
> Me, well, my confidence in mankind isn't that
> generous.

Maybe you should just move to a better neighborhood. There were more
than 2 million people without power and no incidents of people with
generators being attacked by their neighbors.

[Jules Richardson]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:52:03 -0800, bob haller wrote:
> generators running on natural gas produce about 20% less power than on
> gasoline.

AFAIK, that's a worst-case for after-market conversions with poor
airflow. Best-case is about a 4% loss, and real-world typically ends up
being somewhere between the two (but I think CNG usually reduces
efficiency more than LPG does).

I suppose most people over-spec their generators anyway, rather than
buying them to run right at their load limits, so even a loss in maximum
power as high as 20% might not be an issue in most cases.

cheers

Jules

[Stormin Mormon]

It's a good idea to have a trolling battery or jumper pack,
to run lights after 7 or 8 PM. When the neighbor kids are
going to bed, and some quiet is needed. Some 12 volt lights
can be had, for example a 12 volt fluoresent work light that
I got off Ebay.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"bob haller" <hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a9298e27-8151-4cd0...@o5g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

I've found that an hour of furnace run time in the morning
and hour at bedtime, works out well. During power cuts near
me, there is often someone with a generator running full
time. Gets annoying.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote in message

news:MPG.292ad148d...@hamster.jcbsbsdomain.local...

[George]

On 11/14/2011 8:31 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:52:03 -0800, bob haller wrote:
>> generators running on natural gas produce about 20% less power than on
>> gasoline.
>
> AFAIK, that's a worst-case for after-market conversions with poor
> airflow. Best-case is about a 4% loss, and real-world typically ends up
> being somewhere between the two (but I think CNG usually reduces
> efficiency more than LPG does).

I have seen a note about 20% natural gas derating on the manufacturers
specifications of generators.

[George]

Generac definitely makes different quality similar rated versions. Given
the description this may have been the home depot version with a short
warranty.

According to this a 3 year limited warranty is their best:

http://www.guardiangenerators.com/PublicPDFs/0G8676A.pdf

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 14, 8:53 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/14/2011 8:31 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:52:03 -0800, bob haller wrote:
> >> generators running on natural gas produce about 20% less power than on
> >> gasoline.
>
> > AFAIK, that's a worst-case for after-market conversions with poor
> > airflow. Best-case is about a 4% loss, and real-world typically ends up
> > being somewhere between the two (but I think CNG usually reduces
> > efficiency more than LPG does).
>
> I have seen a note about 20% natural gas derating on the manufacturers
> specifications of generators.
>
>

Same here. I think the issue is that gasoline packs considerable more
energy than nat gas. So, not
surprised that there could be a 20% loss.

[Bob F]

>> Do you want to stand out like a lighthouse in a dark
>> harbor?
>> Do you want your neighbors to demand to run power cords to
>> thier houses, and you can be Angst Power and Light?
>
> The guy next door to me has a Generac. Ran fine for four
> days--he did
> shut it down every day and check the oil and topped it up
> once.
>
> None of that stuff happened to him.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
> He's fortunate that some neighbors are kind.
> Me, well, my confidence in mankind isn't that
> generous.
>
>

Maybe it's time to leave the trailer park.

[Stormin Mormon]

Wish I could afford to. Sadly, living in PRNY.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:j9rej8$ro3$1...@dont-email.me...

[Too_Many_Tools]

> http://www.guardiangenerators.com/PublicPDFs/0G8676A.pdf- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I would be interested in hearing about the differences in generator
quality...where do manufacturers cut corners or improve them to
shorten or extend life.

Anyone with knowledge?

TMT

[Too_Many_Tools]

On Nov 14, 6:20 am, "J. Clarke" <jclarkeuse...@cox.net> wrote:
> In article <j9q17t$32...@dont-email.me>, cayoung61
> **spambloc...@hotmail.com says...

>
>
>
> > He's fortunate that some neighbors are kind.
> > Me, well, my confidence in mankind isn't that
> > generous.
>
> Maybe you should just move to a better neighborhood.  There were more
> than 2 million people without power and no incidents of people with
> generators being attacked by their neighbors.

The outage was in blue states.

Having a outage in red states YMMV.

TMT

[Too_Many_Tools]

On Nov 14, 8:49 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

Yes you see a reduction.

I do recall reading that a NG only generator has a longer lifespan.

TMT

[Existential Angst]

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote in message

news:MPG.292ad2867...@hamster.jcbsbsdomain.local...

What brand/type of unit do they use?

The NG Generacs claim 62, 63 db -- which is pretty quiet, but I don't know
exactly how quiet that is -- an idling car, an idling car + 500 rpm??

Also, I was thinking of keeping mine inside, as the gas line and breaker
panels are close by, and venting the exhaust outside.

Good/bad idear? It would solve the theft problem, f'sure. Mebbe put an
inline duct fan to generate some suction, to make sure ALL the exhaust is
exhausted.
--
EA

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:52:03 -0800 (PST), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

>generators running on natural gas produce about 20% less power than on
>gasoline.

Generators running on natural gas are capable of producing 20% Less
power at full load.

A difference that actually means something if one needs to run at full
power.

>
>plan on having some extra power to help neighbors, who will help keep
>you safe..
>
>having a inverter to run some lights off a car battery is a good idea,
>for quiet times

[Tom Del Rosso]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> At $1,250, something like this would appeal to me if I lived in an
> area with unreliable power:
>
> http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=prod2450243#desc
>
> It doesn't include a transfer switch, though. There are some systems
> (such as the furnace and gas water heater electrics) that you'd want
> powered in a long blackout.

"Wireless remote starter"

Great, you don't even have to get up to restore power to the big screen TV.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:20:48 -0500, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
wrote:

But..there were a Signifcant number of generators..running or not..that
were stolen from their locals...

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 14, 3:30 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <jclarkeuse...@cox.net> wrote in message

>
> news:MPG.292ad2867...@hamster.jcbsbsdomain.local...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <f2e8c91f-8ced-47ca-8046-

> > 6ab444cdc...@p1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, trad...@optonline.net says...

> EA- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I'd investigate the potential code issues. Not sure if there are
any, but I'd at least look into it. The ones I'm familiar with have
all been outside. Not sure what the exhaust gases consist of,
but I would not be surprised if the exhaust had a lot more CO
than say a stove or furnace, so if the vent system should fail,
could be a problem. I'd also check the Genrac websit, which
probably has something to say about the matter. Or read the
install manual and see what it says.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On the engine - what kind of bearings?plain, roller, ball etc.
Lubrication- Full pressure lub with filter/without filter or splash
lubricated.
Iron cyl, iron liner, silicone aluminum, or aluminum.

Those are just a few of the BIG differences between CHEAP and GOOD.

Automatic low oil cutoff? Not only yes or no - but quality and
reliability of the switch. Some work every time, some work sometimes,
some never work, and some shut the engine down even when the oil level
is totally up to snuff.

Camshaft - plastic or metal??? nd quality of.
With OHV engines, quality of engine rocker arms and other valve train
parts.

Then there is the generator head. Quality of insulation, quality of
assembly - soldering etc - and copper or aluminum windings.And quality
of control electronics. Amount of air gap, brush or brushless design,
etc.

Always SOMEWHERE an unscrupulous manufacturer can cut corners to
reduce the cost by another couple of cents and reduce the lifespan by
another couple of hours.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Propane and CNG, being "dry gasses" are much easier on the engine -
and if the engine is DESIGNED for, say, PROPANE, and propane only -
with compression ratios etc adjusted to take advantage of the higher
octane (115AKI) a propane engine can make just as much power as a
gasoline engine. Takes more fuel to do the same job though.

[Existential Angst]

"Spehro Pefhany" <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:abh0c791nbl353bk2...@4ax.com...

I agree, keep the transfer manual.

If you have a main disconnect switch or breaker, it's actually sort of a
no-brainer to safely hook up a generator --
Can literally just add two 30 A breakers to the panel, and feed to the whole
house from there. Just make sure the main disconnect is off when running
the generator.

>>
>>IMO the automatic systems make sense if there isn't
>>going to be someone there to connect the generator and
>>start it up. Otherwise a portable that you can connect
>>when needed as well as have for other possible portable
>>uses and which costs a lot less could be a better choice.
>>
>>And in my recommended solution, if the generator is
>>trashed, you can buy a whole new one for $600 or so.
>

> At $1,250, something like this would appeal to me if I lived in an
> area with unreliable power:
>
> http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=prod2450243#desc
>

A diesel generator, 70 db, 20 A at 240 V. Weight??

My Generac link I think was 62 db, 25 A at 240 V, $1700, nat. gas. Weighs
250#.
--
EA

> It doesn't include a transfer switch, though. There are some systems
> (such as the furnace and gas water heater electrics) that you'd want
> powered in a long blackout.
>
>
>

> Best regards,
> Spehro Pefhany
> --
> "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
> sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers:
> http://www.trexon.com
> Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers:
> http://www.speff.com

[Gunner Asch]

Id run mine OUTSIDE and chain it to something with a decent chain and
lock. Something solid and immovable.

But then..I have common sense

Shrug

Gunner

[Stormin Mormon]

Engine puts out a lot of heat. Not sure how many BTU per
hour that is, but it would be considerable. Summer time
power cuts, you'd want to vent the heat out doors some how.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:cd01a338-f6c6-4b6c...@e2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

[Jim Yanik]

"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in
news:4ec17a80$0$28396$607e...@cv.net:

exhaust outside close to the building can infiltrate back inside. that's
why it's recommended to site your generator well away from your house.

>
> Good/bad idear? It would solve the theft problem, f'sure. Mebbe put
> an inline duct fan to generate some suction, to make sure ALL the
> exhaust is exhausted.

to avoid theft,you could put the generator on a 2nd floor patio or roof.
that is what some people are doing with their air conditioning units,to
avoid copper thieves.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

[Jim Yanik]

"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in

news:4ec195ac$0$32254$607e...@cv.net:

not legal,I'm sure,and it doesn't consider emergency personnel or others
who don't know your unsafe arrangment.

Do it right.

[Existential Angst]

"Jim Yanik" <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9F9DB9F915339...@216.168.3.44...

Which, if installed inside, would suggest a strong duct fan -- mebbe strong
enough to blow the exhaust over to my neighbor.... LOL

Oh, apropos of another inneresting post on generator quality, cutting
corners, the whole db thing is esp. subject to scamming, as HOW you measure
db's is critical -- from 1 ft away or 100 ft away, etc. Don't know if there
is a standard, and even if there is, who knows who is adhering to it....

>>
>> Good/bad idear? It would solve the theft problem, f'sure. Mebbe put
>> an inline duct fan to generate some suction, to make sure ALL the
>> exhaust is exhausted.
>
> to avoid theft,you could put the generator on a 2nd floor patio or roof.
> that is what some people are doing with their air conditioning units,to
> avoid copper thieves.

Mebbe an outside shed, with an alarm...
--
EA

[aemeijers]

On 11/14/2011 5:26 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
(snip)

> If you have a main disconnect switch or breaker, it's actually sort of a
> no-brainer to safely hook up a generator --
> Can literally just add two 30 A breakers to the panel, and feed to the whole
> house from there. Just make sure the main disconnect is off when running
> the generator.
>
>
>

Time for this thread again already? Yes, your solution works, but it is
a bad idea, and probably illegal in many places. Sure, you know which
way to throw the switches, but what if you are injured/dead/out of town,
and somebody else fires it up, trying to be helpful? Unless there is a
mechanical interlock that won't let the backfeed breakers be turned on
unless main breaker is turned off, you have to potential for killing
linemen or neighbors with that wire on pole or ground you just
energized. Not as bad as the all-too-common suicide cords, but still way
too risky. The correct solution is simply not that expensive.

--
aem sends...

[J. Clarke]

In article <4ec17a80$0$28396$607e...@cv.net>, fit...@optonline.net
says...

Outside you can clearly hear it start up (it cranks up once a week and
runs for a few minutes automatically just to keep everything lubed up
and let it be known if there is a probley). Inside if you're in a room
on that side of the house and it's really quite you can hear it. It's
not what I'd call an obtrusive noise level.

> Also, I was thinking of keeping mine inside, as the gas line and breaker
> panels are close by, and venting the exhaust outside.
>
> Good/bad idear? It would solve the theft problem, f'sure. Mebbe put an
> inline duct fan to generate some suction, to make sure ALL the exhaust is
> exhausted.

You really need to talk the building inspector about that but my
suspicion is that he'll tell you you can't do it.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:52:42 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Engine puts out a lot of heat. Not sure how many BTU per
>hour that is, but it would be considerable. Summer time
>power cuts, you'd want to vent the heat out doors some how.

An engine will put out at least 3-4x the heat as useful work (20-25%
efficient). 1kWh ~ 3400BTU, so figure 10,000-15,000 BTU/hour per kW
generated.

[Too_Many_Tools]

> >>http://www.guardiangenerators.com/PublicPDFs/0G8676A.pdf-Hide quoted text -

>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >I would be interested in hearing about the differences in generator
> >quality...where do manufacturers cut corners or improve them to
> >shorten or extend life.
>
> >Anyone with knowledge?
>
> >TMT
>
> On the engine - what kind of bearings?plain, roller, ball etc.
> Lubrication- Full pressure lub with filter/without filter or splash
> lubricated.
> Iron cyl, iron liner, silicone aluminum, or aluminum.
>
> Those are just a few of the BIG differences between CHEAP and GOOD.
>
> Automatic low oil cutoff? Not only yes or no - but quality and
> reliability of the switch. Some work every time, some work sometimes,
> some never work, and some shut the engine down even when the oil level
> is totally up to snuff.
>
> Camshaft - plastic or metal??? nd quality of.
> With OHV engines, quality of engine rocker arms and other valve train
> parts.
>
> Then there is the generator head. Quality of insulation, quality of
> assembly - soldering etc - and copper or aluminum windings.And quality
> of control electronics. Amount of air gap, brush or brushless design,
> etc.
>
> Always SOMEWHERE an unscrupulous manufacturer can cut corners to
> reduce the cost by another couple of cents and reduce the lifespan by

> another couple of hours.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks...good list.

Any idea how to buy a generator of good quality...price, name, human
sacrifice?

TMT

[Too_Many_Tools]

On Nov 14, 2:30 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <jclarkeuse...@cox.net> wrote in message

>
> news:MPG.292ad2867...@hamster.jcbsbsdomain.local...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <f2e8c91f-8ced-47ca-8046-

> > 6ab444cdc...@p1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, trad...@optonline.net says...

> EA- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Unless it is code compliant it is illegal...and a damn good way to go
to sleep permanently.

TMT

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:24:28 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<jclark...@cox.net> wrote:



>> But that's overkill for me
>> and I would not want to subject neighbors or myself to
>> all the noise.
>
>What noise would that be? The neighbor's system makes no more noise in
>my house than my refrigerator does.

Maybe you need a new refrigerator?

The generators around here are loud enough to be annoying over night.
From your comment, I imagine there are quieter ones..

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:19:07 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<jclark...@cox.net> wrote:



>>
>> Why would you run it 14 hours a day? Unless you are in very frigid
>> weather and the heat must run all the time. I'd run it for an hour or
>> so every four to keep the refrigerators and freezer cold, but I'd not
>> keep it going all the time. Considering the scarcity of gas and the
>> work to feed it, I'd use it sparingly and enjoy the quiet.
>

>The recent outage in New England happened during a snowstorm you know.
>

I know, I was in it and my power was out for a time. It was not all
that cold that you'd need the heat on 14 hours a day. It warmed up
nicely on Monday.

If there was a spell of temperatures below 20 all day, you may need
more, but not this past storm. At that point, you put all your
refrigerated items outside to keep them so power is less critical.

[rangerssuck]

On Nov 14, 10:25 pm, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:19:07 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>

Sure, if all you're doing is heating a house and cooling food. I have
a business to run and a sump to pump, and it would be nice to be able
to do so without having to deal with gas cans.

[Existential Angst]

"rangerssuck" <range...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:18dce0d5-b5c6-4564...@u9g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

===================================================

Gamers also need power 24/7.
'course, one big car battery should suffice for a while.... for a small
gamer, at any rate. :)
--
EA

[David Lesher]

> And consider if natural gas is dependable, in your area.

Anywhere outside of Earthshake regions, MTBF of resi gas is in decades.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

rangerssuck <range...@gmail.com> writes:


>So, along these lines, I was wondering what would be involved in
>modifying my Subaru gasoline-powered generator to run from Nat Gas.
>after having worked as a motorcycle mechanic years ago, I truly hate
>the smell of gasoline, and it's virtually impossible to pour 6 gallons
>into the generator's tank without spilling at least a few drops. Even
>with nitrile gloves, I still have to scrub my hands to make the smell
>go away.


There are several places I found:

<http://USCarb.com>
<http://www.propane-conversions.com/generators/>

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 14, 7:41 pm, aemeijers <aemeij...@att.net> wrote:
> On 11/14/2011 5:26 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
> (snip)
>
> > If you have a main disconnect switch or breaker, it's actually sort of a
> > no-brainer to safely hook up a generator --
> > Can literally just add two 30 A breakers to the panel, and feed to the whole
> > house from there.  Just make sure the main disconnect is off when running
> > the generator.
>
> Time for this thread again already?  Yes, your solution works, but it is
> a bad idea, and probably illegal in many places.

I'd bet that includes virtually all the USA.

Sure, you know which
> way to throw the switches, but what if you are injured/dead/out of town,
> and somebody else fires it up, trying to be helpful? Unless there is a
> mechanical interlock that won't let the backfeed breakers be turned on
> unless main breaker is turned off, you have to potential for killing
> linemen or neighbors with that wire on pole or ground you just
> energized. Not as bad as the all-too-common suicide cords, but still way
> too risky. The correct solution is simply not that expensive.
>
> --
> aem sends...

An Interlockit kit is the cheap, easy and IMO best solution.
It's essentially a sliding bar, available for most panels, that
prevents the breaker going to the generator and the main
breaker from being on at the same time.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:11:03 -0500, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net>
wrote:

Nah, gamers need to move out of mommy's basement and get a life.

[Existential Angst]

<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:edu4c7pgr8bjku7cf...@4ax.com...

Not likely, as that implies getting a job.
--
EA

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:27:16 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:30:41 -0500, "Existential Angst"
><fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:MPG.292ad2867...@hamster.jcbsbsdomain.local...
>>> In article <f2e8c91f-8ced-47ca-8046-
>>> 6ab444...@p1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, tra...@optonline.net says...
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 13, 10:38 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
>>>> <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > I can't imagine a 14 hour day of generator run. I'd figure
>>>> > an hour ever several hours for heat, and refrigeration. Then
>>>> > work around other things. Candles and other lamps for light
>>>> > and trace ammounts of heat. Survival mode requires different
>>>> > behaviours.
>>>> >
>>>> >

Generators are put in dedicated rooms all the time for industrial
applications. I'd love to have the unit from Verizon Granada Hills
C.O. - 750KW Continuous, 1MW surge - and you need that when you're
starting two 50-ton AC units and several 5 to 10-Ton ones, and all the
Phone Switch battery chargers. The phone switch is a huge computer,
they don't like working when they get hot.

An Architect, Engineer, and special permits required. You have to
make a separate sealed room in the building with provisions for taking
the exhaust out the roof to a proper stack, away from all windows and
air intakes. Large fixed vent louvers in the wall low and high, and
forced ventilation when the engine is running. Remote fuel tank buried
or pad-mount outside - only a small Day Tank allowed in the room. Fire
sprinklers. Extinguishers. Fire rated doors, walls, ceiling into the
rest of the building

And a proper transfer switch, with a way to monitor the Utility line
to see if it's back yet. If you just transfer the whole house that's
fine, but you still have to tap off a separate 15A breaker to be able
to monitor utility power.

You could do the same thing on a smaller scale at home, but you'd
still better plan it all out properly first.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Michael A. Terrell]

"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:
>
> Nah, gamers need to move out of mommy's basement and get a life.

How do you get them out of the basement without cutting holes in
walls & floor, and using a crane?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:21:08 -0500, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net>

Well, the alternative is the local OWS protest.

[Steve B]

Totally as an aside, FYI, and all that, on the offshore rigs, natural gas
would be taken out of the wellhead, refined slightly (probably the water and
particulates filtered out), then used to power the pumps that pumped the
rest to the refineries.

Steve

[DerbyDad03]

On Nov 14, 6:16 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> On Nov 13, 8:21 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 13, 4:28 pm, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
> > wrote:

> > > trashed, you can buy a whole new one for $600 or so.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>

> > Do you have a link to the conversion kits that allow gas, propane and
> > NG selection all in one?
>
> http://www.propane-generators.com/
>
> Check out the type 4 kit.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I want a conversion kit to run my snow blower on Natural Gas.

Oh yeah...and a long flexible hose.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:15:33 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:
>>
>> Nah, gamers need to move out of mommy's basement and get a life.
>
>
> How do you get them out of the basement without cutting holes in
>walls & floor, and using a crane?

Bust a gas line, wait an hour..and toss a flare through a basement
window.

Works just fine. And is a good thing..
Urban Renewal might even get you a grant.

[Stormin Mormon]

I'd figure kerosene at 130,000 BTU per gallon, some where
around there. Figure about the same for gasoline. I'd be
within one or two order of magnitude.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:okh3c7lkhp1ks638h...@4ax.com...

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:00:02 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I'd figure kerosene at 130,000 BTU per gallon, some where
>around there. Figure about the same for gasoline. I'd be
>within one or two order of magnitude.

Sure, but then you'd need to know how fast it burned fuel.

[Tinea Cruris]

http://www.outokumpu.com/Industry-offerings/Chemical-Petrochemical-and-Energy/Case-Studies-container/Subsea-power-cable-by-Nexans/


"Steve B" <ste...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:2wzwq.81492$Oy6....@news.usenetserver.com...

[DerbyDad03]

On Nov 14, 5:52 pm, "Stormin Mormon"

<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Engine puts out a lot of heat. Not sure how many BTU per
> hour that is, but it would be considerable. Summer time
> power cuts, you'd want to vent the heat out doors some  how.
>

> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
>  www.lds.org
> .
>

> <trad...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>
> news:cd01a338-f6c6-4b6c...@e2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 14, 3:30 pm, "Existential Angst"

>
> <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > Also, I was thinking of keeping mine inside, as the gas
> > line and breaker
> > panels are close by, and venting the exhaust outside.
>
> > Good/bad idear? It would solve the theft problem, f'sure.
> > Mebbe put an
> > inline duct fan to generate some suction, to make sure ALL
> > the exhaust is
> > exhausted.

> > --
> > EA- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -
>

> I'd investigate the potential code issues.  Not sure if
> there are
> any, but I'd at least look into it.  The ones I'm familiar
> with have
> all been outside.  Not sure what the exhaust gases consist
> of,
> but I would not be surprised if the exhaust had a lot more
> CO
> than say a stove or furnace, so if the vent system should
> fail,
> could be a problem.  I'd also check the Genrac websit, which
> probably has something to say about the matter.  Or read the
> install manual and see what it says.

re: "Engine puts out a lot of heat."

If you installed it inside, and they put out so much heat, then you
wouldn't need to run your furnace which means you wouldn't need to run
the generator.

Think of the savings.

[HeyBub]

DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> I want a conversion kit to run my snow blower on Natural Gas.
>
> Oh yeah...and a long flexible hose.

No need for the hose if you get a conversion kit for propane. Couple of
coat-hangers to attach the tank to the handle-bars and you're good to go.

You may have to hook up a heater for the propane tank... or use butane.

[Han]

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in news:G-
WdnTv7HrEHQF_Tn...@earthlink.com:

Butane freezes at much higher temps than propane - butane ~-0.5蚓, propane
~-40蚌/C.
See <http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/501hcboilingpts.html>


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[DerbyDad03]

Good idea.

I'll get a Natural Gas heater to keep the propane tank warm.

[Stormin Mormon]

Great logic. Way to go!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"DerbyDad03" <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in message
news:6d3bffbf-0398-41ed...@u9g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:58:58 -0800, "Steve B" <ste...@gmail.com>
wrote:

We had three production barges in the Java Sea working that way. Gas
off the three phase separator, through a liquid knock-out drum, into
the engine.

We did get caught one time though when another well came on stream
making a lot of wet gas, some of which got through the system and
resulted in burned valves in a 500 KW generator.


--
John B.

[HeyBub]

Han wrote:
> "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in news:G-
> WdnTv7HrEHQF_Tn...@earthlink.com:
>
>> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>
>>> I want a conversion kit to run my snow blower on Natural Gas.
>>>
>>> Oh yeah...and a long flexible hose.
>>
>> No need for the hose if you get a conversion kit for propane. Couple
>> of coat-hangers to attach the tank to the handle-bars and you're
>> good to go.
>>
>> You may have to hook up a heater for the propane tank... or use
>> butane.
>

> Butane freezes at much higher temps than propane - butane ~-0.5°C,
> propane ~-40°F/C.
> See <http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/501hcboilingpts.html>

Nope.

The freezing (melting) point of butane is -138°C, the boiling point
is -0.5°C. (~+30°F)
The freezing (melting) point of propane is -190°C, its boiling point
is -42°C (~-44°F)

You don't actually burn propane or butane; you burn the vapor/gas. In lower
ambient temperatures, it's harder for the liquid to turn into a gas.
Anything below the boiling point temperatures above, and you'll get nothing.

[Stormin Mormon]

When the propane or butane turns to gas, what does it
become? Dinosaur fossils? Frosted Lucky Charms?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c6dnZif2b4Gkl7T...@earthlink.com...

[Han]

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in
news:8c6dnZif2b4Gkl7T...@earthlink.com:

Sorry, I meant indeed boiling point. So generally there is noneed to
heat propane tanks, but butane can get problematic near freezing.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Propane motor fuel is extremely hard to start an engine with when cold
-and heat is a definite requiremenr for the vapourizer in cold weather
- unless you are running liquid injection.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/13/2011 5:31 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I've found NG to be very reliable. Still, as the world gets
> more uncertain, it's a valid question.
>
> "Helping" others. Please realize that I've had a LOT of
> people want me to do things for them. And many of them
> cheerfully wanted, and sometimes with desperation, demanded
> me to be responsible for this or that. I've met a lot of
> users, and a lot of leeches. I've met some people who I wish
> I hadn't met. My perspective is changing over the years, and
> as society goes more and more into the mode of "it's someone
> else responsibility". These are the people who really stand
> out in my mind.
>
> If you and your neighbors worked as a team, that's terrific
> and wonderful. I've had very, very few moments when any of
> my neighbors has helped me out in any way. I can think of
> one, off hand, in sixteen years. Make that two, as I think
> some more.
>
> You may be the next victim of people who are establishing
> depenadnce on you. Be careful.
>

We had a storm back during the Summer that knocked out power for a while
and I just gotten out of the hospital because a bout of pneumonia
so I was in no shape to go out and volunteer to help tornado victims.
I loaned my neighbor an LED floodlight and gave he, his wife and six
kids an extra 20lb bag of ice I'd picked at a grocery store. I help my
neighbor and he and his family look out for me, funny how that works.
Because of the tornadoes that ripped through the state, a lot of people
needed help immediately and it didn't come from any government, it came
from a great many plain folks volunteering their time and resources to
make sure their neighbors were helped. A local Conservative talk radio
station put out a call to the community after listeners started calling
in out of the blue offering to help out. The radio show hosts all got
together and decided to become an impromptu disaster call center
connecting people to volunteers and resources. Nobody demanded payment
and gave freely of what they had. I guess we Americans are strange and
wonderful people especially down here in the South but we can't claim it
was all local, there were people sending supplies and volunteers from
around the country. I'll be darned If I don't recall some international
volunteers too. The town of Phil Campbell, AL was devastated by by the
tornadoes and a very strange thing happened, guys from all over the
country and the world who just happened to be named Phil Campbell,
showed up to help rebuild the town. ^_^

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/%E2%80%98phil-anthropy%E2%80%99-guys-named-%E2%80%98phil-campbell%E2%80%99-help-rebuild-phil-campbell-ala/

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ffc5w9

TDD

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:44:17 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:

>When the propane or butane turns to gas, what does it
>become? Dinosaur fossils? Frosted Lucky Charms?

Flammable as hell.

[Han]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote in news:jcb6c7puqsl119j5jlv21cr4sj5nth9tfr@
4ax.com:

> Propane motor fuel is extremely hard to start an engine with when cold
> -and heat is a definite requiremenr for the vapourizer in cold weather
> - unless you are running liquid injection.

I didn't know that. Thanks!

[Stormin Mormon]

Glad that Americans, at least some of them, are willing to
help out. I'll join in when the town of Christopher Young
takes a tornado hit. Sooner, if I feel like being helpful.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net>
wrote in message news:j9vcoj$l2t$1...@dont-email.me...

[Han]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in news:ja0eia
$vem$1...@dont-email.me:

> Glad that Americans, at least some of them, are willing to
> help out. I'll join in when the town of Christopher Young
> takes a tornado hit. Sooner, if I feel like being helpful.

There is an old (optimistic) Dutch saying:

Wie goed doet, goed ontmoet

Wie is pronounced as the game thing, Wii
The g is a hard g, like in Hebrew
The oe sound is like the english oo in good
the rest should be similar ...

"Whoever does good, will encounter good"

[Gerald Miller]

That's why, when I do someone a favor, I ask them to pass it on. I am
so far behind in passing along that I will probably never catch up.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

[pyotr filipivich]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> on Tue, 15 Nov 2011
13:15:33 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

>
>"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:
>>
>> Nah, gamers need to move out of mommy's basement and get a life.
>
>
> How do you get them out of the basement without cutting holes in
>walls & floor, and using a crane?

Tunnel down to the basement wall, add an outside access with
stairs (or a ramp). Convert basement to a "daylight Basement". Use
dirt to landscape the garden. Home improvement on many levels.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:03:49 -0800

typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

>On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:44:17 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
><cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>When the propane or butane turns to gas, what does it
>>become? Dinosaur fossils? Frosted Lucky Charms?
>
>Flammable as hell.

And here I thought Hell was already flaming.

Oh wait, that's West Hollywood.

Never mind.

[J. Clarke]

In article <i4b9c75kg5sa4ak8j...@4ax.com>,
ph...@mindspring.com says...

>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> on Tue, 15 Nov 2011
> 13:15:33 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
> >
> >"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:
> >>
> >> Nah, gamers need to move out of mommy's basement and get a life.
> >
> >
> > How do you get them out of the basement without cutting holes in
> >walls & floor, and using a crane?
>
> Tunnel down to the basement wall, add an outside access with
> stairs (or a ramp). Convert basement to a "daylight Basement". Use
> dirt to landscape the garden. Home improvement on many levels.

You're overcomplicating it. Just tell them that the chick next door is
sunbathing nekkid. They'll be out in a flash.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

The last step, of course, is to lock the door.

[Garrett Fulton]

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message news:j9utau$tgh$1...@dont-email.me...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Got a 2 cyl. aircooled ex-Airforce gen. that went on one of their flight
line
portable lighting units. Opposed Onan flathead engine, with the cowling
around the
cylinders and the air cooling exhaust blown out a 3 inch by about 12 inch
duct. Put it
behind my garage and plumbed the air exhaust duct into the garage interior.
Heats it up nicely, but a little noisy.
More current I pull from it, the warmer the garage gets. Guy had two of
them and said if I got one
running, I could have the other. Nothing but a ruptured fuel pump diaphragm
fixed his. And mine had the
almost new engine, and just needed a resistor. Got about $30 in it, I
think. One of the very few good
deals I've been in on.

Garrett Fulton

[pyotr filipivich]

"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> on Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:15:06 -0500

typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>In article <i4b9c75kg5sa4ak8j...@4ax.com>,
>ph...@mindspring.com says...
>>
>> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> on Tue, 15 Nov 2011
>> 13:15:33 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>> >
>> >"k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Nah, gamers need to move out of mommy's basement and get a life.
>> >
>> >
>> > How do you get them out of the basement without cutting holes in
>> >walls & floor, and using a crane?
>>
>> Tunnel down to the basement wall, add an outside access with
>> stairs (or a ramp). Convert basement to a "daylight Basement". Use
>> dirt to landscape the garden. Home improvement on many levels.
>
>You're overcomplicating it. Just tell them that the chick next door is
>sunbathing nekkid. They'll be out in a flash.

That'd work.

[Stormin Mormon]

In theory, it should be possible to use the indoor air for
the engine cooling, thus putting the heat into the building.
I think your "been there, done it" field report is valuable.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Garrett Fulton" <lbfu...@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:93c5e$4ec549ef$6211456e$32...@ALLTEL.NET...