lic. vs. unlic. painters?
Kevin
what are the pros and cons of using a licensed vs. unlicensed house painters?
for all the remodeling work we've been hiring for, we've made a list
of recommended people and then screened out the unlicensed people. until
now, 99% of the people have been licensed. but, now that we're looking
for recommended house painters, the list we've come up with from friends
and coworkers are 99% unlicensed.
our first bid came from a painter recommended by our kitchen designer.
the painter was real nice, and seemed to know his paints and what each
room required. he even returned our call and did an estimate that day.
my only concern with him is that he recommended that we paint over the
wallpaper that covered one wall in the master bedroom (so far, this
newsgroup has said the paper should be removed before painting and not
real hard to do). that prompted me to check his license, and sure enough
he's not listed under his name or company.
this is a far cry from the service we've experienced from the sole licensed
person on our list. the licensed guy has been called three times without
a call back. he was referred to us by our (licensed) general contractor.
we asked our g.c. about the lack of a callback and he told us the next day
he bumped into the guy and the painter said we were on a list of people
for him to call. i verified the painter's license, and he's bonded and
insured as well (though the sole owner, no employees, which may be why
he's so slow in responding).
anyway, i know in general we should stick to licensed people; but, in the
case of painters, this may or may not be a big deal. let me know what you
think or know about these matters.
thanks,
kevin
TinMan1332
In many states and cities, a painter only needs an occupational license,
liability insurance and sometimes bonding to be "legal." In every area I know
of it is illegal to be in business without at least an occupational license.
Without liability insurance you are responable for all his/her mistakes and
damage to either persons or property. Without workman comp or an exemption...
you may end up paying his/her medical bills if he is hurt on your job. You
could even get into trouble (although rare) with the IRS... since he is not a
"real" business the only other thing he/her can be is your employee (more
exposure to you).
An occupational license is no measure of a quality tradesperson... but I have
never seen anyone who didn't have an occupational license and did have
insurance. I would never let a trades person on the premisis w/o liability
insurance.
And yes, painting over the wallpaper is a mistake. If you want to use this
individual, simply tell them they have the job as soon as they can produce a
copy of their occupational license and a certificate of insurance (with a min
of 100K in liability).
Besides, all of the rest of us who pay the premiums, renew the licenses, do the
continuing education, and obey all the rules.... well, we hate these
fly-by-night folks who dodge the system, cut their overhead at your expense,
and are just too lazy to get serious about what they do for a living.
J.P.
Hank...@webtv.net
In this area, of the maybe 7 painters I personally know, NONE of them
are licensed per say. SOME have insurance. Most do not. ALl of them
are good painters and do great jobs. Here you are not REQUIRED to have
a license to be a painter. But you as a homeowner have no recourse if
they do something wrong or not at all. It is for your protection to use
a licensed painting contractor. You must weigh the pros and cons and
decide if this guy is a good person and a good painter and you think you
can trust him, then use him. Just because someone has a license dose
not mean they are any better at what they do, just that they take it
more seriously and are more likely to be more professional. If you have
used pros at all of your other projects, why stop now? Price may be an
issue. The lower overhead is going to let him do the job at a better
price. Just get a liability waiver if he has no insurance of his own..
The best solution: Do the painting yourself! It is probably the
easiest of projects!
Larrypruit
occupational liscenses. If they are sole-propreiters and have no employees
they are not required to have workers compensation insurance. Although state
liscenses are not required, many localities that have excess complaint about
such tradesmen do require local or city liscenses. Also local business
liscenses are not required here locally if one does operates a service business
out of ones home. Check around, if liscenses are required and they are not
liscensed, tell them that you would like their service but can not afford it if
they are not properly liscensed. They might actually get liscensed for the
opportunity to work for you.
TinMan1332
>state
>occupational liscenses. If they are sole-propreiters and have no employees
>they are not required to have workers compensation insurance. Although state
>liscenses are not required, many localities that have excess complaint
>they are not properly liscensed. They might actually get liscensed for the
>opportunity to work for you.
More than licenses... it's having liability insurance. Sole proprietor's w/o
employees must file with the state for an exemption (in my state). Among other
things, this exemption acts loosely as a waiver for the homeowner and reduces
their liability (this is a very vague and short interpretation of part of the
law).
J.P.
Kevin
: More than licenses... it's having liability insurance. Sole proprietor's w/o
: employees must file with the state for an exemption (in my state). Among other
: things, this exemption acts loosely as a waiver for the homeowner and reduces
: their liability (this is a very vague and short interpretation of part of the
: law).
Yes, I'm concerned about "sole ownership" license. It's one thing if they
do everything themselves, like a craftsman; but, coworkers tell me that
they've hired a sole ownership co. to do work and then they brought in a day
crew that wasn't licensed. Unlicensed people can still do good work, even
day workers picked up off the street. I just can't afford to take the
risk of liability. The one licensed contractor we have a recommendation
for and that hasn't returned our calls yet happens to have a sole
ownership license. I'll definitely ask if he plans to do the work all by
himself, if he ever calls. Today I got a list of 40 painters from two
nearby cities. 10 people were licensed, three of them had sole ownership
licenses. Picking a good painter is going to be tough!
Kevin
TinMan1332
>are licensed per say. SOME have insurance. Most do not. ALl of them
>are good painters and do great jobs. Here you are not REQUIRED to have
>a license to be a painter.
I never heard of such nonsense. I can't imagine having a business, running a
business or doing business without even the bare minimum of a city or county
occupational license. But some areas might be better than others in this
regard. In my city, even the home owner has to have a permit to paint or
repaint his home. Painters are held to certain requirements in order to obtain
the permit; occupational license, liability insurance and bonding (being state
registered is optional).
J.P.
Tom Krotchko
>what are the pros and cons of using a licensed vs. unlicensed house painters?
In Maryland, we were told that if an unlicensed painter fell off the
ladder, we could be held responsible for his injury, and other costs
associated with it.
Plus, my experience with unlicensed painters in the past showed they did
little if any prep work which is critical.
With that in mind, I only considered painters who would were licensed
& insured and would give me a written bid.
What is the difference in price between the two?
--
Tom Krotchko
<to...@access.digex.net>
PBroussard
>anyway, i know in general we should stick to licensed people; but, in the
>case of painters, this may or may not be a big deal. let me know what you
>think or know about these matters.
In article <2748-35C...@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>, Hank...@webtv.net
writes:
>Price may be an
>issue. The lower overhead is going to let him do the job at a better
>price. Just get a liability waiver if he has no insurance of his own..
>The best solution: Do the painting yourself! It is probably the
>easiest of projects!
(This is going to be a vent, so bear with me)
Thanks for the support you've each given the the leagues of station wagon
painters out there. :) No wonder they're so profilic across the world. :) No
wonder painters are looked down upon by the vast majority of homeowners. :) No
wonder we can't find any good help from the painters out there. Most have not a
clue of what they're applying, but they can apply it fast. Every single one
that has come to work for me has either said "duh" or "I always knew that there
was more to this". Small wonder craftsmen like JP and myself spend an hour or
so a day answering painting questions on a.h.r. for legions of homeowners.
I've been told by many crafts that painting is the hardest craft to master, in
both skill and volumes of technical data that is required for a craftsman to
stay current on. Thank goodness for all those station wagon painters out there
who make my work look great. Our business is built upon quality work, and yes
we are licensed, bonded and insured. And yes, we are twice the price of the
station wagon painters, and yes or work is far superior than most, generally
our work will last twice as long as others.
Yes, some painting projects are easy, once you know what to apply and how to
apply it. It's also just as easy to do something terribly wrong, inadequately,
having to repaint in a few years. Hire a pro, let the man earn his living.
"hide the silverware, here comes the painters"
Broussard Painting Contractors, friend of Bill's
"Careful. We don't want to learn from this." -- Calvin
Randy Hubbard
I think the difficulty for all consumers is how to qualify a professional, be it a
painter, electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc. Written estimates may help, and
certainly discussions with perspective trades people help, but it's almost a crap
shoot some times when hiring ANY professional be it a contractor, accountant or a
lawyer. You usually have a difficult time determining their level of competency and
performance until after you've spent your dime... This is the voice of experience
talking here, and I tend to do my homework on purchasing outside services. Even
referrals by trusted colleagues and friends often come up short. This may be due to
different quality standards, and/or belief systems. (Some people call me a
perfectionist, others consider me obsessed.... Go figure!) :(((
While some college kids and station wagon painters *may* do an acceptable job for
some people, they wouldn't even be on my phone list. I have a friend looking to
hire painting work on his house right now. We've gone thru this same discussion.
Bottom line, it's very difficult finding good people and getting quality work. If
you know a means to improve the *odds* of success, I'm all ears.
BTW, I've come to the conclusion (right or wrong), after several years of
participation in these NG's, that most of the trades people online offering help,
are the type of people we would all love to hire. You give of your time (online)
because you genuinely like what you do for a living and want to contribute to
others. This to me says a lot about your character. NG's are a double edge sword
however for professionals dealing with "lay people".
Having participated in a number of automotive groups and mail lists over the years,
I find most consumers and enthusiasts *want* to believe advertising hype and
magazine reviews despite the obvious bias of this information. When confronted with
actual scientific data, or engineering realities, which often refute bogus
advertising hype, some consumers and enthusiasts become hostile and argumentative.
I eventually made drastic cut-backs in my time on these NG's as I found it was
necessary in many cases to provide a college education to some folks just for them
to comprehend the engineering issue at hand. Hopefully the trades people who
contribute online won't face as many hurdles to helping consumers as I've
experienced in the automotive NG's.
Randy
TinMan1332
>ladder, we could be held responsible for his injury, and other costs
>associated with it.
I have seen the results of such a tragedy tax a family's financial security
needlessly. It's just not worth the alleged savings over someone with
insurance.
J.P.
TinMan1332
address many concerns/feelings of _businessmen_ (and women) in many areas of
skilled trades. Make no mistake about it, coatings application is a skilled
business in which one needs to be part craftsman, part chemist and part
customer service rep. on top of all the other business skills/requirements.
Continuing education and vast product knowledge is paramount to being
sucessful. The scurge of the "station wagon painters" is an hot topic with
those in the professional painting and painting contracting business. I dare
say it's one reason that larger painting firms (and sucessful individual
painters) may never even return a call to "Joe homeowner." The time spent on
estimating the job and educating the coustomer is often wasted as the
professionals estimate goes out the window in favor of the no overhead "price
is everything" stationwagon painter.
I doubt that someone needing an expensive operation ever seeks an unlicensed or
uninsured doctor based upon price their "low price"... that is exactly what
most homeowners do when it comes to painting. Your home is likely the single
most expensive investment of your life... but geeze... it's "only" paint and
anyone can paint!
It happens over and over again in the home improvement biz... the person who
bragged the most about the "great deal" they got... complains the most
afterwards when things didn't turn out like expected.
If cost is truly a deciding factor and you are on a "shoestring" budget"...
read this and similar NGs, post and ask questions, go to a full service paint
store and ask more questions... then prepare, prepare, prepare and paint the
structure yourself!
Besides all that... only a fool lets an uninsured tradesperson on their
property (license or no license).
J.P.
Kevin
: say it's one reason that larger painting firms (and sucessful individual
: painters) may never even return a call to "Joe homeowner." The time spent on
: estimating the job and educating the coustomer is often wasted as the
: professionals estimate goes out the window in favor of the no overhead "price
: is everything" stationwagon painter.
I agree with most of the other things you say, except the above. It's just
rude and poor business to not return a call. If you need your house painted
and a licensed person doesn't return your call (three calls in my case),
then that licensed person is going to lose the business, whether it's to
some other licensed person or not. Poor customer service does not reflect
well on a company, even if they're technically excellent. Right now in
our area we have a hot market, and every little shack is being bought up
and renovated. Naturally the home improvement biz is booming too.
Contractors are picking and choosing their jobs. They think they don't
have to return our calls. But when the market goes soft (and it will) ,
these contractors aren't going to even get a call from me (or a referral
down the road).
BTW I'm having better luck with exterior painters. I got a bid in
the mail three days after I talked to the guy on the phone. His company
is licensed, bonded, etc, and has been in the biz for 30 years. He
underbid the unlicensed interior painter's verbal estimate on the
exterior by $2500 and would even powersand the old textured paint away
(the unlicensed guy said that would be too expensive and said a powerwash
was all i needed). the bid was very detailed and professional and included
references. The unlicensed guy's bid had typos - couldn't even spell his
company's name consistently. Another licensed exterior painting co. that's
been in the biz for about 30 years will do a bid on monday. So, I feel
confident I'm going to get a good licensed exterior painter with very
little trouble. I'm glad my wife's handling the interior painter hiring! ;)
Kevin
David Winslow
TinMan1332 wrote in message
<199808110237...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
I think the nonsense is on your part. In my state, New Hampshire, no
licensing is required to do business, no registration of the business name
if you use only your own name. The county is not involved in any way with
licensing. Building codes and permits are town only, and I have never
heard of any occupational licensing. I'm sure we are not the only "Live
Free or Die" state.
>
>J.P.
David Winslow
Tom Krotchko wrote in message <6qpbnh$117$2...@usenet40.supernews.com>...
>In article <kmaExG...@netcom.com>, k...@netcom.com says...
>
>>what are the pros and cons of using a licensed vs. unlicensed house
painters?
>
>ladder, we could be held responsible for his injury, and other costs
>associated with it.
>
>little if any prep work which is critical.
>
>With that in mind, I only considered painters who would were licensed
>& insured and would give me a written bid.
>
>What is the difference in price between the two?
>
>--
>Tom Krotchko
><to...@access.digex.net>
>
economy, i.e. not paying taxes etc. Often these are guys sub for
established painters some times, and grab side jobs other times. You
never know what you'll get, but this is also true with the established
guys. they might bid as little as 50% the price of the expensive
contractor.
I would be glad to let the little guy paint my house, but I would be sure
of my insurance first, and I would only give him the cost of materials up
front. I might even buy the paint myself, and only pay when the job is
completed to my satisfaction. I think the deal you want is a negotiated
minimum with the understanding that you will provide a good bonus for good
work, like 20% or so. This sets the stage for good treatment of you, a
willingness to answer all questions, etc. And as others have suggested,
prep is everything.
TinMan1332
>licensing is required to do business, no registration of the business name
>if you use only your own name. The county is not involved in any way with
>licensing. Building codes and permits are town only, and I have never
>heard of any occupational licensing. I'm sure we are not the only "Live
>Free or Die" state.
>
>
Know wonder the gypsies find the north so easy to "rip off." anyone with a
business card or magnetic sign can transform themselves into a "professional"
overnight!.
J.P.
Joe Supulski
Joe Supulski
TinMan1332
>Naw it's easy to spot the gypsies...they all have Florida license plates
>on their station wagons...lololol (sorry coudn't resist...:-) )
>
>
When I get up there to Pa in December... I am going to make a hundred little
fridge magnets outta Supulski Contracting's magnetic truck signs. Then I am
going to put you in a steamer trunk and start filling the thing with expanding
foam. While you are in there trying to pull some kind of Houdini trick to get
out, I am gonna drink all your good liquor and play with all your Default tools
out in the dirt! Plus, all the while, my Gypsie gang will be coating your
driveway and "fixing" your roof. Then a hex will be placed uponall your money
and you will have to give it to us for "cleansing."
J.P. (posting from deep within a secret Gypsie compound, counting my money
taken from widows and "marks")
TinMan1332
>rude and poor business to not return a call.
You will get no arguement from me on that point. Unfortunatly, sometimes that's
how the mindset of some folks works. OTOH, if I don't call back it's cause
sometimes the little squirrel falls asleep in "the wheel" if ya know what I
mean. All kidding aside, I have been called by potential customers at a later
date to do another job, simply because I returned a call to tell someone I
could not handle a project in the time frame they needed. So to the others
lurking out there who may not get those return calls done in a timely manner...
it can pay, down the road, to even say "thanks, but no thanks."
J.P.
(Who learned everything he knows from motivational speaker; Matt Foley)
PBroussard
concerns down far more eloquently than I could. Seems like it's a never ending
battle educating the consumer.
In article <199808120720...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
tinma...@aol.com (TinMan1332) writes:
>Paul Broussard's comments on Tue, Aug 11, 1998 in Message-id: 19980811131724
>address many concerns/feelings of _businessmen_ (and women) in many areas of
>skilled trades. Make no mistake about it, coatings application is a skilled
>business in which one needs to be part craftsman, part chemist and part
>customer service rep. on top of all the other business skills/requirements.
>Continuing education and vast product knowledge is paramount to being
>sucessful. The scurge of the "station wagon painters" is an hot topic with
>those in the professional painting and painting contracting business. I dare
>say it's one reason that larger painting firms (and sucessful individual
>painters) may never even return a call to "Joe homeowner." The time spent on
>estimating the job and educating the coustomer is often wasted as the
>professionals estimate goes out the window in favor of the no overhead "price
>is everything" stationwagon painter.
>I doubt that someone needing an expensive operation ever seeks an unlicensed
>or
>uninsured doctor based upon price their "low price"... that is exactly what
>most homeowners do when it comes to painting. Your home is likely the single
>most expensive investment of your life... but geeze... it's "only" paint and
>anyone can paint!
>
>It happens over and over again in the home improvement biz... the person who
>bragged the most about the "great deal" they got... complains the most
>afterwards when things didn't turn out like expected.
>If cost is truly a deciding factor and you are on a "shoestring" budget"...
>read this and similar NGs, post and ask questions, go to a full service paint
>store and ask more questions... then prepare, prepare, prepare and paint the
>structure yourself!
>
>Besides all that... only a fool lets an uninsured tradesperson on their
>property (license or no license).
>
>J.P.
>
Broussard Painting Contractors, friend of Bill's