Exterior wood protection?

[Existential Angst]

Before it gets too cold I would like to get at least some paint on all the
exterior wood I've put up:
pressure treated fencing, T1-11 gates, plywood planters (approx 1.5 x 1 x
3').

As far as paint (water based) goes, I heard that exterior gloss is the best,
followed by semi-gloss, then flat. Still true?

I read that polyurethane (water based) was not suitable for outside, which
never made sense to me. Is this true?

Recently here, someone made reference to wood stains not providing much wood
protection. If I use stain, what clear coating can I put over the stain,
that will do a good job?

Are "water seals" (the proverbial Thompsons, which I understand is middling
in effectiveness) generally clear? Can one mix stain in with them? What is
regarded as a better seal, that is generally available?

For non-staining apps, I have tons of exta paint lying around. Is it OK to
use any ole paint as a primer, without compromising the final coat? iyr, I
kluged together a paint sprayer/pressure pot deal, which worked great on a
T1-11 gate. I will be using this sprayer as much as possible. More on my
Sprayer Saga in another post.

I heard of something called "edge primer", for the ends, edges of wood.
Worthwhile? Good for non-edges?

For the plywood planters, I have some Frontier fibre roof coating, which is
like a paintable tar, close to the viscosity of paint. This was recommended
by some gardening sources.
Should I prime the planters with regular paint before applying this roof
coating?

Any advice, tips, experiences, war stories would be helpful.
--
EA

[Leon]

On 10/16/2012 10:11 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
> Before it gets too cold I would like to get at least some paint on all the
> exterior wood I've put up:
> pressure treated fencing, T1-11 gates, plywood planters (approx 1.5 x 1 x
> 3').
>
> As far as paint (water based) goes, I heard that exterior gloss is the best,
> followed by semi-gloss, then flat. Still true?

The more gloss the longer it looks fresh, the duller the finish the
quicker it looks chalky. I would say that noen is better than the other
as far as protection.

>
> I read that polyurethane (water based) was not suitable for outside, which
> never made sense to me. Is this true?

No! Unless you are painting in the rain. I have been using exterior
polyurethane based paint for years with great results.

>
> Recently here, someone made reference to wood stains not providing much wood
> protection. If I use stain, what clear coating can I put over the stain,
> that will do a good job?

The above mention will not last as long as a good paint. The more
opaque the finish the better the protection.

>
> Are "water seals" (the proverbial Thompsons, which I understand is middling
> in effectiveness) generally clear? Can one mix stain in with them? What is
> regarded as a better seal, that is generally available?

Not sure if you can mix but it will be a 1~3 year repeat.

>
> For non-staining apps, I have tons of exta paint lying around. Is it OK to
> use any ole paint as a primer, without compromising the final coat? iyr, I
> kluged together a paint sprayer/pressure pot deal, which worked great on a
> T1-11 gate. I will be using this sprayer as much as possible. More on my
> Sprayer Saga in another post.

What is your time worth? You are painting something that is going to be
in a harsh environment. No time to pinch pennies IMHO, buy new paint
and use the recommended primer.

>
> I heard of something called "edge primer", for the ends, edges of wood.
> Worthwhile? Good for non-edges?

You especially want to prime/paint the edges and in particular those
near the ground where water will splash or morning dew will collect.

>
> For the plywood planters, I have some Frontier fibre roof coating, which is
> like a paintable tar, close to the viscosity of paint. This was recommended
> by some gardening sources.
> Should I prime the planters with regular paint before applying this roof
> coating?

Have you read the directions or asked those that recommended the product?

[Mike Marlow]

Existential Angst wrote:

>
> As far as paint (water based) goes, I heard that exterior gloss is
> the best, followed by semi-gloss, then flat. Still true?

Gloss (and the derivitives of it) are harder to get a good cover over, than
flats. I am not expert in this topic, but I am intuitively suspicious of
this scheme.

>
> I read that polyurethane (water based) was not suitable for outside,
> which never made sense to me. Is this true?

I've never seen poly to be very UV resistant, so I wouldn't advocate poly -
but... remember - I'm not expert in this.

>
> Recently here, someone made reference to wood stains not providing
> much wood protection. If I use stain, what clear coating can I put
> over the stain, that will do a good job?

No idea.

>
> Are "water seals" (the proverbial Thompsons, which I understand is
> middling in effectiveness) generally clear? Can one mix stain in
> with them? What is regarded as a better seal, that is generally
> available?

No idea except that I have never heard any good results from Thompson's
except from their marketing department.

>
> For non-staining apps, I have tons of exta paint lying around. Is it
> OK to use any ole paint as a primer, without compromising the final
> coat? iyr, I kluged together a paint sprayer/pressure pot deal,
> which worked great on a T1-11 gate. I will be using this sprayer as
> much as possible. More on my Sprayer Saga in another post.

Old paint as a primer is just fine - as long as it's the same kind of paint.
Remember this fundamental - you want your paint to adhere to what is below
it - not just simply cover what is below it. You can mix and match all
kinds of crap and cover what is underneath, but it's adheasion that is your
friend.

>
> For the plywood planters, I have some Frontier fibre roof coating,
> which is like a paintable tar, close to the viscosity of paint. This
> was recommended by some gardening sources.
> Should I prime the planters with regular paint before applying this
> roof coating?

See above.

>
> Any advice, tips, experiences, war stories would be helpful.

War stories abound - they don't add to the knowledge base though. Go to a
real paint store - not Home Depot or Lowes or Menards, and ask a genuinely
qualified specialist.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Dave Balderstone]

In article <c72d7$507d8561$4b75eb81$30...@ALLTEL.NET>, Mike Marlow

<mmarlo...@windstream.net> wrote:

> Existential Angst wrote:
>
> >
> > As far as paint (water based) goes, I heard that exterior gloss is
> > the best, followed by semi-gloss, then flat. Still true?
>
> Gloss (and the derivitives of it) are harder to get a good cover over, than
> flats. I am not expert in this topic, but I am intuitively suspicious of
> this scheme.

Gloss shows flaws more than a semi-gloss, and a LOT more than satin.
Personally, I dislike gloss very much.

--
I used to like fishing because I thought it had some larger significance. Now I
like fishing because itıs the one thing I can think of that probably doesnıt. ­
John Gierach

[Don Phillipson]

"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:507d7960$0$1237$607e...@cv.net...

> Before it gets too cold I would like to get at least some paint on all the
> exterior wood I've put up:
> pressure treated fencing, T1-11 gates, plywood planters (approx 1.5 x 1 x
> 3').
>
> As far as paint (water based) goes, I heard that exterior gloss is the
> best, followed by semi-gloss, then flat. Still true?
>
> I read that polyurethane (water based) was not suitable for outside, which
> never made sense to me. Is this true?

This topic is explored by Consumers' Reports every two years or so,
when it usually provides encyclopaedic data. Factors include:
-- local weather
-- horizontal or vertical surfaces (floors and table tops vs. walls)
-- finish (smoothness, visible metal fasteners etc.)
-- paint or stain?

> Recently here, someone made reference to wood stains not providing much
> wood protection. If I use stain, what clear coating can I put over the
> stain, that will do a good job?

Anomaly: most stains are not designed to accept a clear topcoat. (This is
usual only indoors or with auto paints.)

> Are "water seals" (the proverbial Thompsons, which I understand is
> middling in effectiveness) generally clear? Can one mix stain in with
> them? What is regarded as a better seal, that is generally available?

Timber waterproofing products are secondary to drainage, i.e. design so
that water runs off rather than puddles, and availability of drying winds.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Richard]

On 10/16/2012 10:11 AM, Existential Angst wrote:

> Before it gets too cold I would like to get at least some paint on all the
> exterior wood I've put up:
> pressure treated fencing, T1-11 gates, plywood planters (approx 1.5 x 1 x
> 3').
>
> As far as paint (water based) goes, I heard that exterior gloss is the best,
> followed by semi-gloss, then flat. Still true?

Yep.

> I read that polyurethane (water based) was not suitable for outside, which
> never made sense to me. Is this true?

Water based? Outside? There is sometimes water outside, you know?

> Recently here, someone made reference to wood stains not providing much wood
> protection. If I use stain, what clear coating can I put over the stain,
> that will do a good job?

Stains are just a thin color layer.
They don't protect the wood from anything.

What do you want to protect it from?
Any nicks or hard wear will eventually grind through the stain.


Instead of stain use the wood you want it to look like.
Now you are protecting wood.

> Are "water seals" (the proverbial Thompsons, which I understand is middling
> in effectiveness) generally clear? Can one mix stain in with them? What is
> regarded as a better seal, that is generally available?

ehh. pass

>
> For non-staining apps, I have tons of exta paint lying around. Is it OK to
> use any ole paint as a primer, without compromising the final coat?

no

>
> Any advice, tips, experiences, war stories would be helpful.

You first?

[Vic Smith]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 11:11:53 -0400, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:

>
>Before it gets too cold I would like to get at least some paint on all the
>exterior wood I've put up:
>pressure treated fencing, T1-11 gates, plywood planters (approx 1.5 x 1 x
>3').
>
>

>Any advice, tips, experiences, war stories would be helpful.

I already forgot about exterior paint. Here's my tip on that.
Let any exterior wood rot away and replace with new wood to rot away.
Use cedar if you can. Lasts longer and looks good natural.
Or plastic that doesn't rot.
For expensive-to-replace and must-look-painted stuff on the house,
have it clad with aluminum or plastic.
Exterior painting - except for bridges - is stone-age.

[John Grabowski]

*I have personally found that for exterior painting of new wood, it is best
to start with an oil based primer. After that you can put whatever color
latex finish on that you want after letting the oil primer dry for a few
days.

[Leon]

On 10/16/2012 3:31 PM, Richard wrote:
> On 10/16/2012 10:11 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
>> Before it gets too cold I would like to get at least some paint on all
>> the
>> exterior wood I've put up:
>> pressure treated fencing, T1-11 gates, plywood planters (approx 1.5 x
>> 1 x
>> 3').
>>
>> As far as paint (water based) goes, I heard that exterior gloss is the
>> best,
>> followed by semi-gloss, then flat. Still true?
>
> Yep.
>
>> I read that polyurethane (water based) was not suitable for outside,
>> which
>> never made sense to me. Is this true?
>
> Water based? Outside? There is sometimes water outside, you know?

You realize that once water based paints cure that it is no longer as
susceptible to moisture? And or that most homes exteriors are painted
with water base.

[Leon]

Do you live in Arkansas?

[nestork]

'Existential Angst[_2_ Wrote:
> ;2944674']Before it gets too cold I would like to get at least some

> paint on all the
> exterior wood I've put up:
> pressure treated fencing, T1-11 gates, plywood planters (approx 1.5 x 1
> x
> 3').

I wouldn't paint any pressure treated lumber until next spring. That's
because lumber is pressure treated by forcing water based chemicals into
the lumber under pressure, and it takes a long time for that moisture to
evaporate.

> As far as paint (water based) goes, I heard that exterior gloss is the
> best, followed by semi-gloss, then flat. Still true?

My experience is that exterior alkyd paints provide the best protection
over wood outdoors. If it were me, and you can still buy exterior alkyd
paints in your area, I would use an exterior oil based primer and top
coat with an exterior oil based paint in a FLAT gloss. The purpose in
doing that is that the top coat of paint will dry rough, and so when the
time comes to repaint, you won't have to roughen the surface of the old
paint to get the new paint to stick better. It'll already be rough
enough to provide good adhesion for the new top coat. And, I use a flat
paint for the new top coat too.

> I read that polyurethane (water based) was not suitable for outside,
> which never made sense to me. Is this true?

It's partially true. Polyurethane doesn't have good UV resistance and
so it's not a great idea to use it outdoors. A better choice would be a
"Spar" or Marine varnish that doesn't dry to nearly as hard a film as
polyurethane, but has much better resistance to the elements.

> Recently here, someone made reference to wood stains not providing much
> wood protection. If I use stain, what clear coating can I put over the
> stain, that will do a good job?

Spar or marine varnish.

> Are "water seals" (the proverbial Thompsons, which I understand is
> middling in effectiveness) generally clear? Can one mix stain in with
> them? What is regarded as a better seal, that is generally available?

In my time on the internet, I haven't heard much good said about
Thompson's Water Seal. People tend to like Cabot products for their
decks.

> For non-staining apps, I have tons of exta paint lying around. Is it
> OK to use any ole paint as a primer, without compromising the final
> coat?

That depends on the kind of paint you have. Wood is a natural material
and swells and shrinks with changes in it's moisture content caused by
seasonal changes in the humidity. Paints that dry to hard films (like
interior oil based paints or interior polyurethane "varnishes" or
hardwood floor finishes) simply don't have the elasticity needed to
stretch and shrink with the wood as it expands and contracts with the
seasons. The result is that hard paints will start to crack and peel on
wood outdoors fairly quickly. So, the primary difference between
interior and exterior oil based paints is the hardness of the film they
dry to. The harder the film, the better it protects the underlying
substrate, but the less elasticity it has to remain stuck to wood
outdoors as it stretches and shrinks.
So, don't use an interior alkyd paint as a "primer" because then, no
matter what you put over it, it's gonna crack and peel.
Latex paints (both interior and exterior) have plenty of elasticity
to stretch and shrink with wood outdoors, and so the primary difference
between interior and exterior latex paints is that exterior latex paints
will have more additives (like mildewcides and UV blockers) in them. I
would use a flat or eggshell interior or exterior latex paint as a
primer outdoors.

> I heard of something called "edge primer", for the ends, edges of wood.

> Wood absorbs water through it's end grain 15 times faster than across
it's grain. Also, water evaporates from the wood end grain 15 times
faster than it evaporates from the sides of a board (per unit area).

It's that differential absorbtion and evaporation that causes two
problems:

a) it causes boards exposed to the weather to split at the ends. That's
because after the rain stops and the water that's been absorbed into the
wood end grain is still being drawn by capillary pressure into the wood
when the sun comes out and starts drying out that end grain. So the
wood a few inches from the end grain is still swollen with rain water
while the wood at the end grain is trying to shrink as the water
evaporates from it.
Worthwhile? Good for non-edges?

b) When it comes to staining wood, the end grain aways stains much
darker than the rest of the wood, and that's undesireable in furniture
where you want to wood to look uniform. I've heard of woodworkers
diluting their wood stains in mineral spirits or denatured alcohol and
applying diluted coats of stain to the end grain before staining the
rest of the wood. I've also heard of wood workers painting mineral
spirits onto the end grain of the wood first, and then staining the
furniture while the end grain is drying so that it doesn't absorb nearly
as much stain. I expect this "edge primer" you're talking about is for
use with water based stains, and it's meant to reduce the rate at which
water based stains are absorbed into the end grain of wood. I'd only
use them on the end grain. If you use it on the sides of the board,
it's likely those areas on the sides of the board won't absorb any stain
at all.




--
nestork

[BobS]

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
news:507d7960$0$1237$607e...@cv.net...

My over 10 year old shed with T-1-11 siding and pine trim, with shutters and
windows made from pine still looks good after using oil based primer and two
coats of latex based exterior paint. Located in upstate NY, where you can
only purchase oil based products in quarts due to the amount of VOC's.

I used an egg shell (almost flat) paint on the siding and a satin (light
gloss) for the trim with a gloss for the shutters to give the place a bit of
snap.

Not my advice but I got it from a retired painter that did this for a living
for many years and it turns out he was absolutely correct.

T-1-11 siding is a tough siding to cover so the primer and paint can provide
protection. I used a wire brush to flake off any loose wood particles
(brush with the grain) and then sprayed the primer on thinned to the specs
for the sprayer I was using. I made sure the primer coverage was adequate
and that it soaked in.

Two coats of the exterior grade paint were applied with a roller and a brush
and it was worked in to all the crevices and cracks. Thick paint may cover
but it may not get into all the crevices that prevents moisture from getting
under the paint and flaking it off after a few years. Two coats, lightly
thinned and worked into the wood did it for me.

My only problem after about 5 years was some bleed thru of knots on the trim
boards on the soffit. Some light sanding and quart of primer and another top
coat of the satin trim paint has lasted another 5 years.

BobS.