replacing older electrical outlets
grodenhiATgmailDOTcom
the 2-prong electrical outlets with 3 prong outlets (the third prong
being the ground). Following all the normal safety precautions can I
simply install a 3 prong outlet in its place, leaving the ground
unconnected? I know this will defeat the whole purpose of a ground,
I'm just looking to have to stop using adaptors anytime I want to plug
in a three pronged device (which also defeats the purpose of the
ground). Aside from losing out on the safety aspect, are there any
other risks to doing this?
Otherwise, what's involved in running a ground? Is it complicated for
a DIY'er? (maybe if I have to ask, I shuldn't try it). Or would
installing GFCI outlets be an alternative? Thanks!!
jim menning
"grodenhiATgmailDOTcom" <grod...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138639484....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I have a home that was built in the '50's and want to replace some of
> the 2-prong electrical outlets with 3 prong outlets (the third prong
> being the ground). Following all the normal safety precautions can I
> simply install a 3 prong outlet in its place, leaving the ground
> unconnected? I know this will defeat the whole purpose of a ground,
> I'm just looking to have to stop using adaptors anytime I want to plug
> in a three pronged device (which also defeats the purpose of the
> ground). Aside from losing out on the safety aspect, are there any
> other risks to doing this?
SAFETY is and should always be the #1 reason to follow the rules. You are a fool to
even consider such an installation. Other complications certainly include liability
when someone either in the near or distant future gets hurt because of hooking things
up this way.
>
> Otherwise, what's involved in running a ground? Is it complicated for
> a DIY'er? (maybe if I have to ask, I shuldn't try it). Or would
> installing GFCI outlets be an alternative? Thanks!!
>
I agree that YOU shouldn't try it. If you would even consider running without a
proper ground, you are probably the kind that would take a lot of shortcuts, and
wouldn't make sure the system was properly inspected and SAFE when you are done.
jim menning
grodenhiATgmailDOTcom
half of the outlets are the older 2 prong variety (all in
kitchen/bath/livingroom are updated). We just have a few outlets in
hall ways and bedrooms that are older 2 prong still. the only devices
that get plugged into these are 2 prong devices likes vacuum, and the
laptops which are three prong (using an adaptor). We're repainting the
hallways and I was going to upgrade these outlets more for looks now
(to white outlets) and when money is less tight have them grounded.
I'm just wondering if there is risk (ie fire, etc) due to hooking 3
prong outlets to ungrounded box.
We plan on grounding eventually. How big a job is this for experienced
electrician? The outlets are all on 1st floor of a ranch and the
finished basement below has suspended ceilings (ie access to flooring
above by moving tiles).
volts500
NEC does allow 2 prong receptacles to be replaced with 3 prong
receptacles _IF_ they are GFCI protected.
What you need to do is find in first outlet in each circuit, then
install a GFCI receptacle at that location, feeding the downstream
receptacles through that GFCI receptacle. All the downstream
receptacles can then be replaced with reguler 3 prong receptacles to
meet NEC requirements. If line and load are not available at the
first outlet, another soltion is to use GFCI breakers.
Bob
Sometimes they fall half way out and I can picture a little kid sticking his
finger in there.
"jim menning" <jmenni...@new.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4vrDf.39138$0e.1...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Ken
In addition, you should check and see whether you do in fact have a
ground wire that may just be connected to the metal junction boxes.
You probably have just 2-wire cable connecting all your outlets, but
there was a period where an undersized ground wire was included in the
cable and was simply twisted to the other ground wires and tied to the
box. Another variation was that the undersized ground wire was wrapped
around the outside of the cable sheath and the cable was clamped to the
box which would still nake a ground connection to the box. In this
case, it may not be readily apparent that there is in fact a ground
wire connected to anythig.
A quick way to see if there may be a ground would be to take the cover
plate off a duplex outlet, and use a neon light tester between the hot
side of the duplex and the metal box. If the tester lights, then you
probably have a ground wire. If this is the case, then write back here
for more instructions about what to do to actually hook up a ground to
a 3-prong duplex outlet.
But, you probably have no ground wire at all, and will need to either
add GFCI outlets like volts500 said, or else start fishing new cables.
Ken
tev...@hotmail.com
wire connected to the box, but not the outlet. I just pigtailed a
longer wire to the ground wire and put in new 3 prong outlets.
kevin
this is actually in the NEC) you are supposed to label all of the
ungrounded-but-gfci 3-prong outlets with a sticker saying "NO GROUND"
or similar. If I remember from last time I did a gfci, the box even
included a half dozen such little stickers. Or maybe that was just the
"GFCI" stickers I'm thinking of... hmmm.
-Kevin
grodenhiATgmailDOTcom
see what I had to work with. I only bought the house about a year ago
and I'm unfamiliar with the complete history of the outlets (ie I don't
know their age). I do know the house was build in '54 (in RI) (and
assume the outlets are original) and the 2 prong outlets are the
polarized ones (one prong is bigger than the other). I'm told this
this COULD mean there is a chance of a ground being there.
volts500
My mistake Kevin, you are correct. The "NO GROUND" stickers and the
instructions on how to wire it correctly come in the box along with the
GFCI receptacle. Thanks.
Andy
Another solution, which will work but not meet code, is to get
some of those 6 outlet taps which plug directly into the dual
receptacle, and clip off the external ground plug so they can
plug in. This will not require you to go into the outlet, and can
be removed if you decide to sell the place.
It does NOT provide a ground, and is therefore no safer than
the two prong outlets, but it will work without permanent
rewiring, and is very very easy to do. Many of these 6 prong
outlets have a center screw that fastens into the dual outlet
and keeps it from pulling out or falling off.
As I say, it doesn't meet code and provides no safety, but
it works exactly like the adapter, only less likely to pull out.
dnoyeB
> I have a home that was built in the '50's and want to replace some of
> the 2-prong electrical outlets with 3 prong outlets (the third prong
> being the ground). Following all the normal safety precautions can I
> simply install a 3 prong outlet in its place, leaving the ground
> unconnected? I know this will defeat the whole purpose of a ground,
> I'm just looking to have to stop using adaptors anytime I want to plug
> in a three pronged device (which also defeats the purpose of the
> ground). Aside from losing out on the safety aspect, are there any
> other risks to doing this?
>
No risks. Im sure it will violate your code though and when you sell
the house they will request you install two pronged plugs or actually
ground the third.
> Otherwise, what's involved in running a ground? Is it complicated for
> a DIY'er? (maybe if I have to ask, I shuldn't try it). Or would
> installing GFCI outlets be an alternative? Thanks!!
>
in an old house I would say its quite complicated. I'd rather sell my
house than try it. Which is what I did...
--
Thank you,
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16
Pop
"jim menning" <jmenni...@new.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4vrDf.39138$0e.1...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
: "grodenhiATgmailDOTcom" <grod...@gmail.com> wrote in message
uMMM, no, you're a blithering idiot yourself to be calling
someone doing honest research and asking intelligent questions
about something he's not familiar with, a fool.
I've never understood the blatherskites that seem to so enjoy
calling another person, who is only ignorant (and that is NOT an
insult; check your dictionary), a fool, and wishes to learn
something. Responses like yours are a real wart on the ass of
progress.
When you hav e nothing to say, that's what you should say:
Nothing.
grodenhiATgmailDOTcom
being a ground even though there's still a 2 prong outlet (I guess this
was sometimes the case in the 50's). I'm going to buy a tester and
determine if this is in fact the case. If this is not the case, I
think I'll trade off and install a GFCI outlet on the first outlet in
the circuit then change the others (in said circuit) with three prong
outlets. Still none would be grounded, but it would still be to code
(or that's the impression I get). Being a first time home buyer, I'm
trying to save where I can and learn as I go. For things like
electrical, before trying to "experiment" I like to get an idea of
what's involved and determine from there.
dicko
<grod...@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobodies mentioned a major problem that can occur in older houses.
That's the use of cloth covered rubber insulated wire. My house was
built in the early 50s too and the wiring is all this awful rubber
insulation with a woven cloth covering. Hard drawn, solder tinned.
The problem is that the wire's been exposed to air for the last 50
years and the rubber is just absolutely brittle. If you just think of
pulling an outlet to change it, the insulation cracks and falls off.
Well, OK, its not quite that bad but you get the drift and you get an
idea of what you might be in for.
The wire is usually just fine until you move it, at which time the
insulation flakes off. I've managed to replace most of the wire in
the house but on the stuff I havent yet replaced, I shudder if I have
to open up an outlet box.
So be real careful when working with that old wire.
dickm
grodenhiATgmailDOTcom
not grounded. To further the investigation I've pulled out the outlet
(after shutting power) and pulled the outlet out a bit. There are only
4 wires coming in, 2 white and two black (both black wires on one side
of the outlet, and both white on the other). The wires seem in good
shape (pliable and rubber sheathing was in good shape and not cracky).
I checked down in the basement and the wiring to the older plugs looked
like the texture of a gaarden hose and was called Citex. My questions
are:
1.) If I were to hire electrician APPROXIMATELY what could I expect to
spend to get say 4-5 outlets converted (in the room right above the
fuse box). The fuse box is only a few years old and properly grounded
for the recently rewired kitchen/bath and newly finished basement.
This is in the north east (RI).
2.) If the cost in question 1 is too high, I may use a GFCI outlet as
the first in the series on the circuit and redo all the others with
standard 3 prong (I'm told this is ok code).
3.) Worst case... Is it still possible to buy 2 prong outlets (this all
started with wanting to replace the old panted over ones).
Thanks in advance!!
mm
<grod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I have a home that was built in the '50's and want to replace some of
>the 2-prong electrical outlets with 3 prong outlets (the third prong
>being the ground). Following all the normal safety precautions can I
>simply install a 3 prong outlet in its place, leaving the ground
>unconnected? I know this will defeat the whole purpose of a ground,
>I'm just looking to have to stop using adaptors anytime I want to plug
>in a three pronged device (which also defeats the purpose of the
>ground).
Not necessarily. You're supposed to attach the pigtail wire, or the
little metal tab with the notch, of the adaptor to the center screw
of the outlet.. In many most or all cases -- not sure which, but
definitely sometimes -- , that screw will be grounded, and when you
take out the screw, then screw it back in with the little metal fork
underneath it, the adaptor is I believe as good as a 3 prong outlet.
> Aside from losing out on the safety aspect, are there any
>other risks to doing this?
>
>Otherwise, what's involved in running a ground? Is it complicated for
>a DIY'er? (maybe if I have to ask, I shuldn't try it). Or would
>installing GFCI outlets be an alternative? Thanks!!
Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.
ameijers
boxes grounded, either through armored cable or actual ground wire romex?
Only way for sure is to disable a circuit, pull an outlet out, and see if
there is any bare copper in there. For the outlets that have already been
switched, one of those ten-buck testers will do it. In this 1960 house, half
the outlets were grounded, and half 2-hole. Lucky for me, there was grounded
romex to all the boxes, so all I had to do was switch 14 outlets.
aem sends...
puttster
"Pop" <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:vavDf.3750$b%2.3351@trndny07...
you.
mm
<grod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I've tested the outlet with a circuit tester and it appears they are
>not grounded. To further the investigation I've pulled out the outlet
>(after shutting power) and pulled the outlet out a bit. There are only
>4 wires coming in, 2 white and two black (both black wires on one side
>of the outlet, and both white on the other).
This would be indicative if you had romex, but I don't think you do.
Was there Romex in the 50's??
But if you have BX, wires through a spiral metal sheath, your boxes
may well be grounded. If it is metal.
Did they have plastic boxes inthe 50's? I don't think so. So your
box is metal, but make sure..
You have to check again.
If the box is grounded, the outlet is iiuc guaranteed to be grounded
when it is screwed to the box -- but not when you disconnect the
outlet to look behind it.
I hope you got a VOM, a volt-ohm meter, or a multimeter, which is also
a volt-ohm meter with different words on the package.
Much more useful in general than other testers. Don't buy the
cheapest one RS has if it uses a moving needle, but get a cheap
digital one. There are times when that is not as good, but they will
be rare. (If you have to, later you can get a wiggy?, or a meter with
a needle.)
Set your meter to 120 volts AC or higher (200 is a common value on the
AC voltage scale.) Stick one probe in one of the slots in the outlet
and touch the other probe to that metal screw between the two halves
of the outlet (or if the outlet is not screwed to the metal box, touch
the other probe to the metal box.)
You have two slots, one that is hot and one that is neutral, and this
test should show either no voltage with either slot, or no voltage
with one slot and some voltage with the other.
If it shows no voltage between either slot and the metal box, the box
is not grounded. (this test has to be done with the power on, (to an
outlet that works (as I assume all yours do.))
If it does show voltage between one slot, probably the wider one, and
the box (or the screw in the middle of the outlet) it will probalby
show 117 volts, or 110, or 120. In that case the box is grounded,
and the outlet will be when you screw it back in place (although check
again after it is in place.)
If it shows something less than 110, post back here for more info.
>The wires seem in good
>shape (pliable and rubber sheathing was in good shape and not cracky).
>I checked down in the basement and the wiring to the older plugs looked
>like the texture of a gaarden hose and was called Citex. My questions
>are:
>
>1.) If I were to hire electrician APPROXIMATELY what could I expect to
>spend to get say 4-5 outlets converted (in the room right above the
>fuse box). The fuse box is only a few years old and properly grounded
>for the recently rewired kitchen/bath and newly finished basement.
>This is in the north east (RI).
>
>2.) If the cost in question 1 is too high, I may use a GFCI outlet as
>the first in the series on the circuit and redo all the others with
>standard 3 prong (I'm told this is ok code).
GFCI outlets and circuit breakers trip if the ground is no good. That
means you have to have a good ground to begin with. No one here has
discussed, that I have read, using GFCIs with 2 wires in BX or metal
conduit. How would that work, guys?
>3.) Worst case... Is it still possible to buy 2 prong outlets (this all
>started with wanting to replace the old panted over ones).
I think so. If not maybe you could buy 3 prong and fil the ground
hole with epoxy. That would make the point that there is no ground,
although I don't know anything about Code in this matter.
>Thanks in advance!!
P&M, reply by post only.
Bud--
Both circuit testers and meters will not test for a reliable ground
because the test at a very low current. What tests good at low current
may be high resistance and not be an effective ground. Actually a 100W
lite bulb from hot to ground is more accurate - or measuring the voltage
across the bulb.
>>The wires seem in good
>>shape (pliable and rubber sheathing was in good shape and not cracky).
>>I checked down in the basement and the wiring to the older plugs looked
>>like the texture of a gaarden hose and was called Citex. My questions
>>are:
>>
>>1.) If I were to hire electrician APPROXIMATELY what could I expect to
>>spend to get say 4-5 outlets converted (in the room right above the
>>fuse box). The fuse box is only a few years old and properly grounded
>>for the recently rewired kitchen/bath and newly finished basement.
>>This is in the north east (RI).
>>
>>2.) If the cost in question 1 is too high, I may use a GFCI outlet as
>>the first in the series on the circuit and redo all the others with
>>standard 3 prong (I'm told this is ok code).
>
>
> GFCI outlets and circuit breakers trip if the ground is no good. That
> means you have to have a good ground to begin with. No one here has
> discussed, that I have read, using GFCIs with 2 wires in BX or metal
> conduit. How would that work, guys?
>
GFCIs compare the current on the hot and neutral wires and trip if there
is a 5 mA difference. They do not need and do not use a ground wire (the
ground connection goes to the outlet only).
>
>>3.) Worst case... Is it still possible to buy 2 prong outlets (this all
>>started with wanting to replace the old panted over ones).
>
>
Yes they should be available.
bud--
grodenhiATgmailDOTcom
well. These outlets are connected to beige flat cables (I think this
is called Romex). The older/original wiring is going to metal boxes.
This cable looks to be a rubbery substance covering some kind of mesh.
The cable says Citex NON METALIC COVERING. I have pulled one of the
older outlets, its in a metal box with four wires coming in (two
black/two white).
Chris
out and there was the ground wire (smaller guage, as mentioned above).
So the house has 3 wire cable. So I just replaced with three prong
outlets and connected the ground.
Get a home wiring book from your library. You will learn quite a bit
there.
Mark Lloyd
wrote:
>This was the case in my 1959 house. Two prong receptacles. I took one
>out and there was the ground wire (smaller guage, as mentioned above).
>So the house has 3 wire cable. So I just replaced with three prong
>outlets and connected the ground.
>
Are you sure that ground wire is connected at the other end?
>Get a home wiring book from your library. You will learn quite a bit
>there.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department
No one who knows what they are talking about will tell you that what I'm
about to suggest is required by code but I'm going to suggest that you
use isolated ground receptacles for your replacement receptacles that
will be supplied from the Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters. The reason
that I suggest this is that with metal boxes and especially with older
armored cable that does not have a bonding strip a fault on any plugged
in load can energize the other three wire loads that are plugged in or
metallic fixtures supplied by that circuit.
Isolated ground receptacles assure that any fault is isolated to the
defective cord and plug connected load rather than having stray voltage
present on the rest of the ineffectively grounded or ungrounded circuit.
You still label the receptacles as having no equipment ground. The
code already requires that no equipment ground connection be made to
receptacles that are installed from an ungrounded GFCI protected supply
but the connection between the receptacle grounding terminal of a
regular receptacle and it's yoke make that instruction ineffective at
isolating the receptacles from each other.
Once again this is not a requirement of any code I am aware of but it
will reduce the chance of electric shock. The reason for being so
careful is that GFCIs will only protect older children and adults in
good health. Smaller children and adults who are old enough or sick
enough to already have an irregular heart beat can still be killed by
electric shock. Even healthy adults can be injured and even killed by
the physical reaction to the momentary electric shock that occurs before
the GFCI opens the circuit. Electric shock causes muscle contractions
that can result in falls or other dangerous involuntary motions.
--
Tom Horne
zxcvbob
Isolated ground receptacles are also a lovely shade of orange. HTH :-)
Bob
marad...@unlisted.com
wrote:
If it was built in the 50's there is a good chance it has BX, which is
a metal spiral around the wires. Since they didnot have plastic boxes
back then, I assume you have metal boxes, Therefore you have a
ground. TEST THEM ALL TO BE SURE.
You need to run a green pigtail wire from the box to the outlet.
Those older metal boxes did not always have a hole for a ground screw.
Get a ling enough drill bit to drill holes in the rear of the boxes.
In the electrical dept, they sell an alectricians multi-sized tap.
But one to thread the holes, OR get self tapping screws with a hex
head and use a nutdriver. I believe the green ground screws are a
10-32 thread (I may be wrong). Be sure you dont chop up the wires
with the drill chuck.
Here's a tip. Shove then in a piece of small sized hose and bend them
upward. That's my own "invention". I always keep a few pieces of 6"
gas line hoses in my electrical toolbox. just for that purpose, and
they have come in handy a few times when I opened a box and found bad
wires, but needed to keep the wires live to test to find the source.
Just slip them over the wires during the tests. (not premanently -
replace all bad wires). I also used them a few times when working on
a live circuit with lots of wires. Helps keep hands away from the
ones you are not testing at the time, without having to bend that old
insulation so much. Just slip the hose over the wire ends.
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT
They are available in ordinary colors with or without a special symbol
on the face.
--
Tom Horne
Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT
There are two types of Armored cable. One is BX that was built in
General Electrics Bronx plant; hence the designation BX; which has no
bonding strip inside the armor. The other is a product of later
manufacture that has a bonding strip in the armor and is more properly
referred to by it's electrical code designation of AC. BX is not
suitable for use an Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor. The
corrosion between the turns of the armor makes the impedance of the
return pathway too high. Before you try to use the armor of the cable
in your walls as an EGC you will need to check for the presence of a
bonding strip. If there is no bonding strip then you will need to
protect the circuit with a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. When
unbonded BX cable carries fault currents the result is often a fire due
to the heating of the armor.
marad...@unlisted.com
You are correct, but I believe in the 50's they all had the bonding
strip. and BX was always the trade name even though you are correct
about the AC which was always a confusing term considering the power
is AC, thus is probably whey they kept the BX terminology.
Just curious, does anyone know what both BX and AC stand for?
A note to the OP. If you have a dedicated outlet for a computer or
other device that requires a good ground, if you dont want to replace
the cable, you can always run a green wire alongside the armored
cable. Whether this ia acceptable to code is questionable, but it
will get you a good ground (if taken all the way back to the main
panel).
Sev
outlet covers/faceplates. Get them wet, scrub with copper wool- I've
done it. So no need to replace anything. Really, though, you want to
have properly grounded circuits. It's safer. You've gotten some good
suggestions- but why not just call an electrician, get a free
estimate. Sometimes your local hardware store will give you a few
names of local, reliable people if you don't know any. This way,
you'll have the situation looked at, get cost estimates,
recommendations re minimal/ ideal upgrades etc. You'll actually have
an experienced person familiar with local construction look at your
wires, as none of us can do. Then you make your decision.
marad...@unlisted.com
Grounded outlets are not really needed in all rooms. For rooms with
lamps, tvs and stuff - not needed.
For computers, air cond. kitchen appliances and the bathroom ,they
should be grounded. Often new wires can be run to those places if
there is a basement because these rooms are often on the first floor.
You lighting can stay as it is. Sometimes its easier to just add new
outlets and only rewire the kitchen area. You can still buy
non-grounded outlets too. They cost more.... go figure !!!
If you got a garage or basement workshop, rewire them - they are
usually exposed so easy to change. In a 50's home, the basement is
likely conduit wired. Thats definately a good ground unless someone
pulled the pipe apart.