Knob and Tube BETA-33
Terry
Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.
(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires
I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)
So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2
S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1
S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)
Does this sound right?
I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2
So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.
That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
one going to a power source.
http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg
This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.
RBM
"Terry" <kilo...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:e9o6q35hasqpjh3mu...@4ax.com...
Terry
He says no wire is hot at any box, and the light has never worked. He
is using an inductance pocket tester. I just learned he has phoned
the wires out in the past with a continuity tester.
RBM
each location
"Terry" <kilo...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:mgt6q39r4vmi3uhs6...@4ax.com...
Don Young
whether the OP is missing a hot feed to one of the switches or whether he is
missing a neutral feed to the light. These can be verified by connecting a
long wire to a hot or neutral in a known working circuit and testing for
power between the extension wire and the wires in the problem area.
One common problem with electrical troubleshooting for me is that people
tend to say they do or do not have power at or on a certain wire. Power
never is present at one wire, only between two wires and you need to know
which two wires are being checked. And, of course, using a DVM instead of a
test light just confuses the issue even more.
Don Young
hal...@aol.com
> "Terry" <kilow...@charter.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
just replace all the wiring, running a new line back to the breaker box
BETA-33
I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday.
Between now
and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able
to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a
flashlight.
I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from
when I was working on it before. But I have to take one more board up to
access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that
today.
I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested --
start over and run a whole new circuit. But, since it's a puzzle right now,
I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and
try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.
"Terry" <kilo...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:e9o6q35hasqpjh3mu...@4ax.com...
Terry
To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you
are removing now, though.
You might get lucky and find an easy fix. How have you been living?
:)
hal...@aol.com
it might bring a visit by the company but thats better than finding
out after a fire
ca...@hotmail.com
My homeowner's insurance company already knows I have knob and tube
wiring. It was listed on my application for insurance.
ca...@hotmail.com
yuck)
This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:
I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.
At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.
At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.
At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.
On Feb 2, 7:48 pm, Terry <kilow...@charter.net> wrote:
> Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.
>
> To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you
> are removing now, though.
>
> You might get lucky and find an easy fix. How have you been living?
> :)
>
>
>
> On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" <BETA...@fdsa.cba> wrote:
> >Thanks Terry for starting this thread.
>
> >I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday.
> >Between now
> >and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able
> >to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a
> >flashlight.
>
> >I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from
> >when I was working on it before. But I have to take one more board up to
> >access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that
> >today.
>
> >I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested --
> >start over and run a whole new circuit. But, since it's a puzzle right now,
> >I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and
> >try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.
>
> >"Terry" <kilow...@charter.net> wrote in message
> >news:e9o6q35hasqpjh3mu...@4ax.com...
> >> Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.
>
> >> Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.
>
> >> (Knob & Tube)
> >> Light with 2 wires
> >> S1 3-way with 3 wires
> >> S2 3-way with 3 wires
>
> >> I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
> >> worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)
>
> >> So..........
> >> The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
> >> a wire coming from S2
>
> >> S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1
>
> >> S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
> >> from a source (coming from anywhere)
>
> >> Does this sound right?
>
> >> I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
> >> going from the light to S2
>
> >> So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.
>
> >> That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
> >> one going to a power source.
>
> >>http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg
>
> >> This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
> >> similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted text -
Terry
proper way to repair knob and tube. The more I read about it, the
less confident I feel about doing anything to it.
If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere
else then it sounds like the light can be fixed.
If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake
wiring the lights to begin with.
This sketch sounds like what you have.
http://i26.tinypic.com/nvysuc.jpg
You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light.
Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches
and the other wire from the other switch to the light.
Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a
better solution or point out a flaw in my logic.
hal...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it
exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for
liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure
homes with it.
a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100
years old.
how many appliances last a 100 years?
dpb
If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap.
--
RBM
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:57e8e36d-65e7-4707...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 3, 12:20?pm, Terry <kilow...@charter.net> wrote:
> I was trying to find some guidelines by searching the web on the
> less confident I feel about doing anything to it.
>
> If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere
> else then it sounds like the light can be fixed.
>
> If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake
>
> This sketch sounds like what you have.
>
> http://i26.tinypic.com/nvysuc.jpg
>
> You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light.
> Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches
> and the other wire from the other switch to the light.
>
> Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a
> better solution or point out a flaw in my logic.
>
>
>
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:08:19 -0800 (PST), ca...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
> >yuck)
>
> >This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
> >time
> >ago, this is what I found:
>
> >I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
> >switches
> >and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.
>
> >At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
> >as 1,
> >2, and 3.
>
> >At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
> >continuity
> >with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
> >wires
> >upstairs
> >3-way as number 4.
>
> >continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
> >has
> >continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.
>
> >> Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.
>
> >> To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you
> >> are removing now, though.
>
> >> :)
>
> >> On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" <BETA...@fdsa.cba> wrote:
> >> >Thanks Terry for starting this thread.
>
> >> >I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on
> >> >Tuesday.
> >> >Between now
> >> >and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be
> >> >able
> >> >to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to
> >> >use a
> >> >flashlight.
>
> >> >I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already
> >> >up from
> >> >access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do
> >> >that
> >> >today.
>
> >> >I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have
> >> >start over and run a whole new circuit. ?But, since it's a puzzle
> >> >I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above,
> >> >and
> >> >try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.
>
> >> >"Terry" <kilow...@charter.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:e9o6q35hasqpjh3mu...@4ax.com...
> >> >> Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.
>
> >> >> Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.
>
> >> >> (Knob & Tube)
> >> >> Light with 2 wires
> >> >> S1 3-way with 3 wires
> >> >> S2 3-way with 3 wires
>
> >> >> it
> >> >> worked with what he has. ?(knowing this may not be true)
>
> >> >> So..........
> >> >> The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere)
> >> >> and
> >> >> a wire coming from S2
>
> >> >> S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1
>
> >> >> S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be
> >> >> coming
> >> >> from a source (coming from anywhere)
>
> >> >> Does this sound right?
>
> >> >> I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
> >> >> going from the light to S2
>
> >> >> So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.
>
> >> >> similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted
> >> >> text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it
exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for
liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure
homes with it.
a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100
years old.
how many appliances last a 100 years?
Yea, that's it, it's kinda like a toaster, or maybe a percolator.... I get
it now
hal...@aol.com
today insurance companies go out of their way to not pay off, and some
people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then
insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay
dpb
> On Feb 3, 12:32�pm, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
>> hall...@aol.com wrote:
>>> call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...
>> ...
>>
>> If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap.
>>
> people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then
> insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay
Unless the homeowner deliberately conceals a situation, there's no basis
for not paying the claim.
You've been afforded the opportunity to previously document a single
verifiable case of the above problem.
It is nothing but FUD.
--
RBM
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:fo65u4$fd8$1...@aioe.org...
> hal...@aol.com wrote:
> insulated copper wire to a car. " How old is your car" and other silliness
hal...@aol.com
shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, so
insurance companies now call it flood damage and refuse to pay, saying
the flood that went with the storm did the real damage..........
even 10 years ago insurance was dependable, pay the premium, relax
they pay.
in my immediate neighborhood a main water line burst, nearly washing
away a home. took out basement walls, etc. nearly totaled the home.
the water companies insurance refused to pay because water was shut
off within a half hour.
water company is a muncipality, so it cant be sued.
homeowners refused to pay too.
the whole mess is in court, the family had to borrow money from family
and friends to stabiilize their home.
years ago such stuff didnt occur..........
now why defend K&T its obsolete, undersized, lacks grounding a basic
safety issue,,,,, geez its likely a 100 years old.
in that time how many times has the home got?
a new roof?
been repainted?
new carpeting?
new furnace?
new hot water tank?
how many new cars have owners of that home bought since K&T was new?
whats it cost to replace all the K&T? perhaps 5 grand?
now compare that 5 grand with one new roof............
you know no one really owns a home, since they tend to outlive people.
we are really stewards of probably the most expensive thing we will
ever buy.
and homes wear out, and need continious repairs and upgrades.
so why fight new wiring?
perhaps your home is the worst on the street? with broken side walks,
roof patched with tarps, and the interior a shambles?
while you proudly say its fine?
maintaing upgrading and taking care of your home pays off big time at
home resale time, in faster sale and much more money.
replacing K&T isnt money wasted, its money invested........
dpb
...
> shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...
No. (No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)
--
hal...@aol.com
that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does
whatever it can to avoid paying claims.
I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised.
why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets
replaced on a regular basis?
dpb
> On Feb 4, 9:36�am, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
>> hall...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...
>> No. �(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)
>>
>> --
>
> that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does
> whatever it can to avoid paying claims.
Insurance pays for what is covered -- what isn't covered isn't paid for.
Some insurers are easier to work with than others--just as any other
area of human interaction.
> I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised.
Because they had nothing to do w/ the initial complaint and are a common
tactic of the weak argument -- when no recourse on the subject at hand,
bring in another.
> why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets
> replaced on a regular basis?
Again, nothing to do w/ the question at hand...
--
bud--
> (From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
> yuck)
>
> This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
> time
> ago, this is what I found:
>
> I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
> switches
> and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.
>
> At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
> as 1,
> 2, and 3.
>
> At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
> continuity
> with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
> wires
> they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the
> upstairs
> 3-way as number 4.
>
> At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has
> continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
> has
> continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.
>
If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements
indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue
wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4.
In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral.
When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is
off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but
3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was
ever code compliant?]
Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be
further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.
-------------
You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T.
--
bud--
RBM
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:fo79nu$pmc$1...@aioe.org...
> hal...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Feb 4, 9:36?am, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
>>> hall...@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does
>> whatever it can to avoid paying claims.
>
> Insurance pays for what is covered -- what isn't covered isn't paid for.
> Some insurers are easier to work with than others--just as any other area
> of human interaction.
>
>> I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised.
>
> Because they had nothing to do w/ the initial complaint and are a common
> tactic of the weak argument -- when no recourse on the subject at hand,
> bring in another.
>
>> why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets
>> replaced on a regular basis?
>
> Again, nothing to do w/ the question at hand...
Every time I read his rediculous posts, my computer plays Twilight Zone
music, I don't get it
>
> --
BETA-33
news:7be33$47a73402$4213ea14$17...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
> ca...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements
> indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue
> wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In
> operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When
> both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is
> not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes
> were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?]
>
> Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further
> away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.
>
Thanks. I'm going to a little more tomorrow to see what I can figure out.
At this point, it's just a game -- a puzzle that I want to see if I can
figure out.
In the end, I do plan on rewiring the entire house -- either with me doing
some (cutting holes and pulling wires) and an electrician doing all of the
rest, or with an electrician doing the whole thing.
But, for now, I'm having a good time trying to see if I can find where the
disconnect is in the hallway light setup.
dpb
...
> Every time I read his rediculous posts, my computer plays Twilight Zone
> music, I don't get it
Maybe you need a new roll of tin foil...
--
Terry
wrote:
So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)
http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg
So he should be looking for a splice in the two wires that go between
each switch.
I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used
an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at
either switch or at the light.
I am starting to get a K&T fetish.
hal...@aol.com
> "bud--" <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote in message
I suspect the problem is a switch rather than a wiring connection
failure. but with the connections soldered, buried in the walls it
will be hard to find and may be a sign of a lareger problem..........
if a soldered connection failed perhaps more will, and the next one
may overheat and cause a fire........
to the naysayersa of replace the K&T I gather you dont believe in
maintaing your home.
come time to sell and it may be impossible for the buyer to get
homeowners insurance and thus no mortage, effectively killing the sale.
dpb
...
> come time to sell and it may be impossible for the buyer to get
> homeowners insurance and thus no mortage, effectively killing the sale.
But it's going to have burned down by tonight, anyway, so what's the
difference?
Get off the BS, crap..._IF_ (and that's the proverbial "big if") and
when an insurance company refuses to write coverage, it can be fixed
then. Despite your BS claims, I've yet to find any indication of any
major underwriter that will not write for K&T as a blanket prohibition.
They _might_ require an inspection.
I've done enough retrofits from antebellum to WWII boom time frame I've
lost count and K&T wiring has _NEVER_ been an inhibition to a sale.
--
hal...@aol.com
My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new
policies for homes with K&T.....
so you wait till home sale time and K&T kills the sale? plus you may
not have the bucks to rewire your entire home or pay more......
planned in advance makes rewiring more manegable.
plus rewiring requires access holes in walls and cielings, so you fix
up your home, K&T becomes a deal breaker, then you get to fix your
home twice.....
RBM
in the system. If he's tested with an inductive tester, that he knows is
working, and gets no light, he's got an open hot leg. He should be able to
check for a grounded leg using a grounded pipe or extension cord and
continuity tester. Once he finds the leg that's grounded, he should be able
to determine which leg should be hot, and backtrack from there
"Terry" <kilo...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:n5geq3hkhs400piuu...@4ax.com...
dpb
...
> My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new
> policies for homes with K&T.....
My search of State Farm the last time you spouted this nonsense
corroborated no such thing...
--
RBM
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:fo887k$sv3$1...@aioe.org...
> find out what the company policy was. His answer, as expected was that the
> older a building is, the more it's scrutinized for defects and violations
> and if they determine the electrical system to be in dangerous condition,
> they won't write a policy, but they DON'T deny a policy solely due to the
> presents of K&T--
hal...@aol.com
call a agent and ask...........
please report back and remember others here have reported they couldnt
get homeowners or had 6 months to replace it, or lose coverage
S. Barker
replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the
carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or
pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check
and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do
to our automobiles.
But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. It's not a
viable argument.
s
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bc0e6742-f061-4d6f...@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 4, 9:36?am, dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
> hall...@aol.com wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...
>
> No. ?(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)
S. Barker
houses, and most of them have at least some K&T wiring. I wasn't even asked
about the wiring. I believe these phantom insurance company stories are
just that, stories.
s
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:fo83gd$fg4$1...@aioe.org...
S. Barker
s
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:fo887k$sv3$1...@aioe.org...
hal...@aol.com
> We balance tires, rotate tires, change oil, grease, tune up, replace tires,
> replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the
> carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or
> pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check
> and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do
> to our automobiles.
>
> But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. �It's not a
> viable argument.
>
some friends got caught up, insurance required replacing K&T,
rebuilding a front porch, replacing some bad sections of sidewalk, and
installing a railing on outside steps.
its nice you service your vehicles, do you ever replace them?
do you know anyone with a vehicle as old as K&T???????
like i said would some others call state farm and ask?
homeowners insurance has changed a lot in the last 10 years
and those of you with K&T at home resale time you can remember this
discussion when you cant sell your home...........
bud--
Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
read a few ohms max.
>
> So he should be looking for a splice in the two wires that go between
> each switch.
But not between the switches. A bad connection from a hot to the wiring
connecting the switches.
>
> I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used
> an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at
> either switch or at the light.
I believe the voltage tester uses capacitance coupling to the wire.
*IF* the tester is sensitive enough to provide an indication when 3 or 4
inches from a hot wire, BETA might be able to trace the wire with the
voltage tester. That requires making the dead wire hot. Kill any circuit
that may possibly have originally fed the light. Bring power to the
switch location with an extension cord. Connect a small light bulb (like
with a pigtail socket) to the extension cord hot. Connect the other side
the light bulb to wire 1 then 2. The light bulb should light up when
connected to the neutral (an alternate method of finding the neutral to
RBM's post). Connect the light bulb to the other wire, which should be
the wire that no longer connects to the building hot. Trace the wire
through the walls with the voltage tester. This has worked for me on
occasion. But don't try it unless you understand how it works and the
significant safety issues. And check that the voltage tester is
sensitive enough (in ceilings you may need more than 4 inch sensitivity).
For one K&T problem I cut at least 6 holes in a ceiling so I could
insert a voltage tester and mirror to follow the wire. K&T can be a pain.
>
> I am starting to get a K&T fetish.
>
Geez - you and hallerb could start a club.
--
bud--
Terry
wrote:
>>
>> So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
>> switching arrangement)
>>
>> http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg
>
>Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
>read a few ohms max.
>
Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching
arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to
neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it?
Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell
of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with
the lamp off)
I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the
travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the
light and make a proper 3-way connection.
hal...@aol.com
Homeowners insurance underwriters may refuse to cover it
As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny
coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new
homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or an
electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.
I have a ton of references if anyone is interested, it appears most
homeowners insurance companies today wouldnt insure a home with K&T
hal...@aol.com
Nate Nagel
> We balance tires, rotate tires, change oil, grease, tune up, replace tires,
> replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the
> carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or
> pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check
> and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do
> to our automobiles.
>
> But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. It's not a
> viable argument.
Actually the automotive analogy is a good one *for* replacing K&T. Most
cloth covered auto wiring is no longer suitable for service and will
crumble if disturbed. Granted, that was being phased out by the
mid-50's but then again most K&T was installed prior to that. The only
thing making it not a perfect argument *for* replacing K&T is that an
automotive environment is much harsher on the insulation than is the
inside of a wall.
I'm not one to replace things for the sake of replacing them (I did
salvage the harness in my '55 STudebaker by judicious patching) but old
cloth covered auto harnesses are something to be concerned about. You
might find one that is still OK but I would bet that most that still
remain will not be so if one disturbs it significantly.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
S. Barker
s
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:18fe0a20-e3e8-46d5...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
S. Barker
s
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8756516e-a2fc-49e7...@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
RBM
"S. Barker" <ichase...@coldmail.com> wrote in message
news:9sadnZv_HqqQsDTa...@giganews.com...
> Bullshit again. Never been proven.
>
> s
wiring which are being bought and sold regularly? Considering that you NEED
insurance if you have a mortgage, if Haller had any credibility, they would
have all been rewired by now.
hal...@aol.com
> Aren't there currently hundreds of thousands of houses or more with K&T
> wiring which are being bought and sold regularly? Considering that you NEED
> insurance if you have a mortgage, if Haller had any credibility, they would
> have all been rewired by now.
homes remain in families sometimes for generations. takes a long time
to rewire every K&T install......
now since you havent bothered to goggle, too lazy i guess while you
just prooclaim you know..... check out this link it details homeowners
troubles with K&T and has many reports of being unable to get
insurance without rewiring...
please no futher comments till you do your homework:)
hal...@aol.com
> http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=ceb752c2ebf08fc1bbc8d401...
heres a direct copy from just one of these links
Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email
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Posted by Jerry_in_OC_MD (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 16:55
We had the home inspection on the 1920 "Dutch Colonial Revival" that
we are in the process of purchasing.
The Inspector had a lot of concerns about the knob and tube wiring in
the house. Some, but not all of the electric is updated. He
recommended that we (or preferably the seller) have the wiring
inspected and safety tested by an licensed electrician before we take
possession of the house.
He mentioned that it might be tough to get a homeowners policy with
the electric in it's current state. Has anyone else had difficulty
getting an insurance policy for their home because of knob-and-tube?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post
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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 18:11
Here in Ontario, if you have an existing policy, most insurers will
cover a newly purchased home with knob & tube wiring, and give you
30-60 days to disconnect and replace it.
This is a fairly recent change, for a couple of years, it was nigh on
impossible to get insurance for any house with knob & tube unless it
was with a high risk company.
First time home buyers are having more luck these days, but it often
means wearing out your dialing finger. Having an electrical
certificate stating that the wiring is safe and adequate and also
advising what percentage of the wiring is knob & tube may help.
If you have home insurance now, check with your current broker to see
how your company deals with knob & tube issues.
Hope this helps.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by joed (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 19:00
Here in Ontario I know of at least one person who was forced to
replace their K&T or their insurance would not renew.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 21:49
I should have been clearer. Most insurers here will not take on a home
with knob & tube, or keep an existing property with K & T unless it is
disconnected and replaced within 30-60 days.
The only exceptions I know of have been elderly folks who really don't
use much power and tend to have no computers, VCR's, microwaves, and
who live much more simply than those of us with all kinds of fancy
appliances and toys. Electrician's letters advising that the wiring is
safe and adequate for the senior have satisfied many insurance
companies. Makes it tough for those buying the house if it's sold
though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by bas157 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 22:06
When I bought my house, USAA (insurance company) wanted to see the
home inspection report, which pictured some knob and tube wiring. They
wanted it replaced until I showed them better pictures which clearly
show the wiring was just a few pieces and the knobs, obviously hooked
up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by HappyCthulhu (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 12:09
We have knob and tube in our 1926 Tudor and never had any problems
with getting insurance.
We use State Farm.
They never asked to see the inspection either.
Knob and tube wireing is usually not a problem as long as it is in
good shape.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by kennf (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:21
Other than insurance, the other problem with K&T is that you aren't
supposed to insulate over it. So if you want to insulate the attic
better than 1920s standards, you may be out of luck.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45
We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube
energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is through
Vermont Mutual.
VT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by sharon_sd (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 6:46
Our (Ontario)insurance company has not asked us to change out the knob
and tube that remains, and their rep has seen it. What they did
require was that we remove the line from our oil tank to the furnace
that ran under the concrete basement floor and replace it with a line
on top of the floor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by NancyLouise (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 8:01
We have a 100 year old home. When we recently switched insurance
companies, during the inspection one of the first questions the
inspector asked was if there was any K & T wiring. Luckily there
wasn't. It is a very real safety concern. I believe it may be more
difficult to get insurance because of it. Perhaps you can have monies
taken off the asking price of the home to get the home's wiring up to
code. It can't hurt to ask. NancyLouise
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted by Mom1993 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 15:00
We own a 1920's house, had all original K&T wiring. Amica (who we have
used for 15 years) wouldn't insure the house - Fireman's fund would.
We are replacing almost all of the original electrical...Good luck!
bud--
> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:40:53 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
>>> switching arrangement)
>>>
>>> http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg
>> Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
>> read a few ohms max.
>>
> Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching
> arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to
> neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it?
>
> Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell
> of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with
> the lamp off)
What grounded surfaces are there near the screwshell?
>
> I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the
> travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the
> light and make a proper 3-way connection.
>
If you find the splices, you have probably found the bad connection. The
way I read your post you want to make the K&T circuit a 'proper' 3-way.
The
circuit could also be rewired with Romex as several have suggested.
Life is a series of trade-offs.
--
bud--
bud--
> definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk
The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) are:
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".
Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.
Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.
I eagerly await your reply.
--
bud--
Terry
wrote:
I am really just beating a dead horse now. The suggestion to replace
it is, of course, the best solution.
From what I have read in the last couple of days, you can repair an
existing K&T circuit if it met the code requirements at the time. So
if BETA had a "proper" 3-way switching arrangement and a broken hot
wire, the way I see it, he could just butt splice a new piece of wire
in it's place. You can still use K&T to repair K&T.
I don't think the switching arrangement we are assuming BETA has was
ever code compliant so it would not be legal to repair it.
One other thing BETA should consider is that the neutral wire could
still be in use. And splicing a neutral together that is still in use
can cause dancing. :)
S. Barker
although i rewired them, i was never even asked about the wiring. And yes,
they did ask when they were built.
s
"RBM" <r...@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:47a9a2bf$0$15199$607e...@cv.net...
S. Barker
that changes my experience of having never been asked about wiring. Sounds
like the people being hassled by insurance companies about K&T wiring need
to find a new better reputable company.
s
Oh, and BTW, i'll comment all i feel like.
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:77ff868f-c484-4caf...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
cavedweller
> Ok, I will do some reading of those links. BUT, i don't really see where
> that changes my experience of having never been asked about wiring. Sounds
> like the people being hassled by insurance companies about K&T wiring need
> to find a new better reputable company.
>
others are more reasonable.
The Electrical Safety Authority is the responsible agency and has
published a lot of information regarding K&T wiring in response to
insurance company actions within the province.
A favourable inspection by ESA carries a lot of weight with the more
reasonable insurers.
Google ESA.
hal...@aol.com
> hall...@aol.com wrote:
> > definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk
>
> The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) are:http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
> is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
> on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
> hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
> insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
> was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)
>
> � orhttp://tinyurl.com/297uk7
> is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
> homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
> renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
> ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
> justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
> automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".
>
> Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
> insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
> must have better information than Illinois had.
>
> Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
> insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
> you must have better information than the insurance company had.
>
> I eagerly await your reply.
>
> --
> bud--
well heres the real world discussion of K&T
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=ceb752c2ebf08fc1bbc8d401968362eb3fcd3b0f02818301455c7eeeb952685b&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8
why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
this topic
RBM
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:df832179-1ae9-42a2...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 6, 1:01?pm, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
> hall...@aol.com wrote:
> > definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk
>
> The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro)
> are:http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
> is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
> on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
> hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
> insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
> was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/in...
> is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
> homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
> renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
> ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
> justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
> automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".
>
> Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
> insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
> must have better information than Illinois had.
>
> Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
> insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
> you must have better information than the insurance company had.
>
> I eagerly await your reply.
>
> --
> bud--
well heres the real world discussion of K&T
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=ceb752c2ebf08fc1bbc8d401968362eb3fcd3b0f02818301455c7eeeb952685b&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8
why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
this topic
We try to stay out of the twilight zone
hal...@aol.com
> Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
> insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
> must have better information than Illinois had.
>
> Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
> insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
> you must have better information than the insurance company had.
>
> I eagerly await your reply.
>
> --
> bud--
do tell? if the originally werent concerned with overheating why run
wires thru tubes?
have you read the pastes i posted from others who couldnt get
insurance?
RBM
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2f0a07e0-6c20-4e8c...@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
>> insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
>> must have better information than Illinois had.
>>
>> Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
>> insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
>> you must have better information than the insurance company had.
>>
>> I eagerly await your reply.
>>
>> --
>> bud--
>
> do tell? if the originally werent concerned with overheating why run
> wires thru tubes?
>
through wood or needed protection. I'm sure many people who couldn't get
insurance had K&T that was screwed with over the years and deemed unsafe.
That doesn't mean that ALL K&T is in poor condition... Except in your mind
S. Barker
number of inches from a box. Both rediculous unnecessary rules. I guess
frequent earthquakes could rub the wires over a couple centuries.
s
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2f0a07e0-6c20-4e8c...@l16g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
S. Barker
Only ONE (1) sited an insurance company by name. The rest only speculated
that "some" insurance companies "may" refuse coverage on K&T. One other
link stated a state farm user that wasn't questioned about the wiring. So,
i guess there's still no documented proof that "insurance companies deny
coverage on K&T wired homes". I can't imagine the other 90 hits being any
different than the 10 most popular.
but thanks for playing.
steve
jo...@phred.org
ichase...@coldmail.com says...
> to prevent chaffing. just like why we have to staple romex within a certain
> number of inches from a box. Both rediculous unnecessary rules. I guess
> frequent earthquakes could rub the wires over a couple centuries.
Earthquakes are much too large a movement to worry about. Ordinary
mechanical vibration can be enough to cause long runs of wire or pipe to
chafe, e.g. the regular shaking from a washing machine's spin cycle.
--
jo...@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>
hal...@aol.com
geez are you incapable of just calling state farm and ask?
I pasted the reports of people who couldnt get homeowners because of
K&T yet you ignore these posts.
just HOW EXACTLY does one prove wiring which has been almost totally
buried in walls for a 100 years is in good condition? a electrician
would have to open walls to check the condition of the wiring.
one more little thing, notice its called knob and tube, the wires go
thru the tubes when wires have to pass thru framing. specifically
ceramic insulators
this was done to prevent overheating of wires to cause a fire,
now doesnt it make sense that insulation could also cause a fire?
i bet you have K&T covered with insulation..........
and are burying your head in the sand over this as a known hazard
hal...@aol.com
jo...@phred.org
ichase...@coldmail.com says...
> Ok, so i've read the first 10 links on the AOL search you linked me to.
> Only ONE (1) sited an insurance company by name. The rest only speculated
> that "some" insurance companies "may" refuse coverage on K&T. One other
> link stated a state farm user that wasn't questioned about the wiring. So,
> i guess there's still no documented proof that "insurance companies deny
> coverage on K&T wired homes".
Not all insurance companies deny coverage to all K&T wiring, but many
insurance companies do prohibit all K&T wiring. It's more commonly
prohibited in newer areas where only a small fraction of the housing
suppy is old enough to have K&T.
Underwriting guides are generally confidential company documents, you
probably won't find them posted on line, and I'm certainly not about to
violate any contracts by posting excerpts, but I assure you, they do
exist, and many insurance companies really do prohibit insuring homes
with K&T wiring, enough that it has become a serious problem in some
markets.
On the other hand, many insurance companies rely on agents to report
whether a house has K&T or other prohibited conditions, and if the post-
insurance inspection doesn't catch it, a house with K&T can get insured
despite the prohibitions.
Once it's insured, the policy generally won't have an exclusion for
damage caused by K&T wiring, it's an underwriting issue, not a coverage
issue.
DISCLAIMER: I am not your insurance agent.
hal...@aol.com
> In article <D8GdnTTmFfm18DfanZ2dnUVZ_hadn...@giganews.com>,
> ichasetra...@coldmail.com says...
> <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
> Braze your own bicycle frames. �See
> <http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>
hey thanks!!!
do you agree insurance companies are more pickey today about home
condition?
like poor sidewalk trip hazards, bad roofs, rotted porches, lack of
railings on public steps leading to homes.
if i were a insurance company i wouldnt want to insure something that
was a obvious hazard.
thats akin to insuring a repeat DUI driver. if they get coverage it
naturally costs a lot more
bud--
> http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=ceb752c2ebf08fc1bbc8d401968362eb3fcd3b0f02818301455c7eeeb952685b&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8
>
> why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
> discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
> this topic
Repeating:
Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation?
Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring?
I looked at a few links and didn't find either. Just some opinions based
on who knows what.
Where is insurance actuarial data on fires caused by K&T. The insurance
company in Maine didn't produce any.
IMHO insurance limitations on K&T are just the latest form of redlining.
Why are electricians on this newsgroup far less paranoid about K&T than
you are?
--
bud--
bud--
Problems are likely to be at soldered joints. I have seen 2 failed
solder joints (one in K&T) - both were "cold joints" - defective when made.
>
> I don't think the switching arrangement we are assuming BETA has was
> ever code compliant so it would not be legal to repair it.
I have seen the Carter circuit a couple of times and it seems to come up
occasionally on this newsgroup. I suspect it was once compliant, but I
don't know. Wiring practice has changed a lot. No one has ever said
definitively it was or wasn't once compliant. Anyone know any really old
electricians?
--
bud--
RBM
"bud--" <remove....@isp.com> wrote in message
news:615ce$47aad32d$4213eaa5$59...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
It was first made illegal in 1920 Nec 380.2 which required three way and
four way switching to be done only in the ungrounded conductor, but of
course it continued to be used to save $$$
>
> --
> bud--
>
hal...@aol.com
>
> > why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
> > discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
> > this topic
>
> Repeating:
> Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
> insulation?
> Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring?
>
> I looked at a few links and didn't find either. Just some opinions based
> on who knows what.
>
> Where is insurance actuarial data on fires caused by K&T. The insurance
> company in Maine didn't produce any.
>
> IMHO insurance limitations on K&T are just the latest form of redlining.
>
> Why are electricians on this newsgroup far less paranoid about K&T than
> you are?
>
> --
>
> - Show quoted text -
it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
inspect K&T.
exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?
a bad solder joint could be about to start a fire but be invisible
buried behind plaster wall........ the electrician could be on the
hook for fire costs, having said it was safe.
my big issue with K&T is the lack of boxes, and underpowering.
typically K&T had one outlet per bedroom. today that leads to tons of
extension cords, and they are a definite hazard. I have seen some real
hack jobs with extension cords in such rooms......
bud--
> inspect K&T.
>
> exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?
>
> a bad solder joint could be about to start a fire but be invisible
> buried behind plaster wall........ the electrician could be on the
> hook for fire costs, having said it was safe.
More FUD. Where is your data on fires started by K&T.
>
> my big issue with K&T is the lack of boxes, and underpowering.
>
There may or may not be boxes. I presume underpowering means not enough
outlets.
> typically K&T had one outlet per bedroom. today that leads to tons of
> extension cords, and they are a definite hazard. I have seen some real
> hack jobs with extension cords in such rooms......
Not enough outlets is not unique to K&T. If there are not enough outlets
add more.
Still missing:
Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation.
Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.
--
bud--
bud--
How interesting.
The other question, I suppose, is whether the NEC was adopted in a
jurisdiction when a house was built. It was common for jurisdictions to
have their own codes. I looked up an article in an IEEE newsletter that
said heavy pressure to adopt the NEC (and one of the major building
codes) came in the 1960s.
But the 1920 date for the NEC should be an early landmark. Thanks.
--
bud--
hal...@aol.com
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:34:12 -0600, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
> >> inspect K&T.
>
> >> exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?
>
>
>
just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not
because connections were generally made in walls and latheand
plastered
over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........
and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters
troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls
looking for a bad connection.
hal...@aol.com
> >Still missing:
> >Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation.
> >Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
hey cool, heres a quote paste from this site:)
More importantly perhaps, some insurance companies are now refusing to
provide home owners insurance on houses with existing knob & tube
wiring.
It can not be run in or under insulation. This often happens when
outside walls or attics are insulated. Old wiring was installed in
open spaces so that it would stay cool. The insulation around the
wires was made of rubber that burns at a relatively low temperature.
If surrounded by house insulation, the wires will not cool and could
heat up enough to burn. It is important that if an old house is to be
insulated that any knob and tube wiring be re-wired first.
Terry
I think everyone here agrees that K&T should be replaced. Just not
TODAY, like you seem to indicate.
The points you make about the problems with K&T are valid and anyone
buying/selling a house should be aware of them. We get it.
Thanks
hal...@aol.com
> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:47:45 -0800 (PST), "hall...@aol.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I had a beach house with "properly installed" knob and tube wiring and
> all connections were easily accessible.
>
> Why would you have ANY connections inside a sealed wall unless they
> were at the site of an outlet? Are you some sort of hack who splices
> together short lengths of scrap wire to save a small amount of money
> on materials while wasting an enormous amount of money on labor to do
> it?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have seen homes wired with K&T where connections were some distance
from lights and outlets. fact is to provide spacing K&T uses they cant
be right together, their typical distance must be 6 inches.
so the wires to the device are soldered on near a knob, but no easy
way to see the solder job.......
my house is mostly BX it was built in 1950. in the middle of the night
i turned the light on to find my lost pillow and got a shower of
sparks from the fixture right on the bed. scared me a lot.
upon disection found the insulation to the light socket failed
touching a grounded fixture.
needless to say all those fixtures were replaced, this about 10 years
ago.
John Albert
previous posting.
I have an old, 2-story house, about 1500 sq. ft., built in
1911, with knob & tube wiring and 60-amp service (fuse box).
I was thinking of having the old service replaced with
100-amp service and modern circuit breakers. Will this be
compatible with the existing (old) wiring?
Having said that, I realize that actually replacing the
wiring itself is a BIG job. Does anyone have ballpark costs
on what a job like that prices out to?
Thanks,
- John
Mark
What they did was place the new breaker box a few feet down the wall from
the existing fuse box, then replaced the old box with a large junction box
(not sure that's what it is really called - it was a box about 1'x1' with a
screwed on cover). the old knob-n-tube wires were pulled into this and
joined with new 14-2 cables that then went to the new 15 amp breakers.
As for a total re-wire - I'd avoid it unless there are real concerns for the
existing wiring. In many cases the old wiring is OK, just not sufficient to
handle today's household load. A better, and cheaper option would be to
ensure the new breaker box is large enough to handle additional circuits,
and then evaluate where and what you need and add new to handle the load
without messing with the old.
Keep in mind that code does have some specific requirements things like
dedicated circuits for major appliances, GFI protection ion kitchens and
bathrooms, etc. When you get a price for the service upgrade, why not
consider going even larger than 100-amp? The extra cost may not be that
much and you might be glad you did down the road - particularly if you have
electric appliances (stove & dryer) or Central A/C.
"John Albert" <j.al...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:%THqj.54712$Pv2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
dpb
It's certainly possible, yes. I wouldn't particularly recommend it,
though. As you can tell if you read any of the thread :), I'm not of the
opinion there's a reason to unilaterally gut K&T just because it's K&T,
but I am of the opinion that if one decides to upgrade it's generally
rational decision to do the full thing.
That said, if the intent is to add some new service and the condition of
the existing is good, then that is an in-between position.
In summary, in all the retrofits/rehabs we've done, it has been the
condition of the existing system combined w/ budgets and other
priorities that has ruled as to what was actually done in any give
project. Some try to divorce the decision from these practical
constraints but that is simply not realistic. Sometimes it has to be
done because it is an actual danger and the dollars have to come from
somewhere else getting cut back. Other times, there are better uses for
limited dollars.
I'd also recommend you at least consider 200A rather than 100A service
for an upgrade unless you're intending to be the permanent residents and
know there's no chance of seriously upgrading the amount of electric
utilities, etc., in the future. That's simply a cushion for down the
road that isn't that much more in cost as it's likely you'll need a new
drop anyway to support the 100A service.
What it would cost is essentially impossible to predict locally -- much
depends on the construction type, basement or not, attic or not, etc.,
etc. A good electrician can do wonders in retrofitting, particularly if
he does have access to top and bottom plates from above/below.
Of course, it's also possibly a time to consider what you have for
exterior wall insulation and so on, given a house of the age unless it
has been done previously, so perhaps two birds...
--
hal...@aol.com
for easiest resale, and bggest profit, replace all the wiring. your
home is a investment, likely the largest asset you will ever buy. you
might as well take good care of it.
go with 200 amp. it costs little more, and is money well spent.
5 grand for a modest home rewire around here.... your costs will be
well your costs.........
even if you dont do a complete rewire once you install modern circuits
for kitchen bath etc, put furnace on its own breaker, and GFCI
required areas like kitchen bath and basement garage your near a full
rewire......
home inspectors today are very pickey
besides its a good time to insulate and save enrgy every day
bob kater
space but no second floor, abt 5000 dollars with attic access to the second
floor ceiling it shud be abt the same depending on outlets etc that you
want. Electricians are getting a little hungry here with the housing
slowdown in North Carolina.
"John Albert" <j.al...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:%THqj.54712$Pv2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
RBM
wiring hasn't been altered much, there's probably not that much of it, and
it's likely in decent condition. If there are only a handful of lights and
outlets, the 60 amp service is probably adequate for what's there now. If
you intend to add lights, outlets, or appliances, or expand the size of the
building, It would make sense to install a new larger service. There isn't
much price difference between a 100 and 200 amp service, so I'd recommend
the larger. Often the limited amount of K&T circuits are just left alone and
slowly abandoned as new circuits are run to the various parts of the house,
which doesn't need to be done all at once. The cost of doing this type of
renovation varies wildly, depending upon where you live and with new 2008
codes kicking in, it can be pretty expensive. I'd call a couple of local
electricians to get an idea of prices
"John Albert" <j.al...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:%THqj.54712$Pv2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
RBM
<sa...@dog.com> wrote in message
news:ocdmq3d2t9446om8m...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:34:12 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>> it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
>>> inspect K&T.
>>>
>>> exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?
>>>
>
>
>
>>> buried behind plaster wall........ the electrician could be on the
>>> hook for fire costs, having said it was safe.
>>
>>More FUD. Where is your data on fires started by K&T.
>>
>>>
>>> my big issue with K&T is the lack of boxes, and underpowering.
>>>
>>There may or may not be boxes. I presume underpowering means not enough
>>outlets.
>>
>>> typically K&T had one outlet per bedroom. today that leads to tons of
>>> extension cords, and they are a definite hazard. I have seen some real
>>> hack jobs with extension cords in such rooms......
>>
>>Not enough outlets is not unique to K&T. If there are not enough outlets
>>add more.
>>
>>Still missing:
>>Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation.
>>Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.
>
>
>There was no requirement for K&T splices to be accessible, only that they
>be made by solder wrapped with tape, or K&T connectors, and supports were
>required near each splice. The idea was that a bad splice wouldn't be up
>against a wood beam, so a bad connection wouldn't make fire eminent, except
>of course in the mind of Hallerb
S. Barker
fact, there would be no reason to make a connection in a wall behind plaster
and lath, any more than there's a reason to do it with romex.
s
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d8dc6acf-b204-403c...@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
S. Barker
insulation. One can only blame over fusing or no fusing. And in these
cases, they'll overheat and burst into flames with or without insulation.
And as a matter of fact, with fire retardant cellulose, they'd probably be
safer, because they wouldn't have access to oxygen.
s
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c08afc7f-2f79-4df0...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
S. Barker
put 15A breakers on all the K&T stuff, and there's no chance of them being
over fused like there is with the screw in fuses. One house i bought (and
rewired) had 4 THIRTY amp fuses in the box. Also, two of the circuits were
screwed down on the buss side and were not fused at all.
s
"John Albert" <j.al...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:%THqj.54712$Pv2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
S. Barker
When i did one of ours, (3 bedroom two story) I found it fairly easy to do.
Since the K&T wiring is not attached to the studs down the walls, i was able
to pull the romex with the old wires. also, pulling a floor board or two or
maybe even a baseboard will get you places you wouldn't even imagine.
Especially with the balloon construction, i was actually able three times to
push my fish tape all the way from the ground floor outlet boxes all the way
to the attic. Use a few 4x4 junction boxes and you're all set. I spent a
total of about 100 hours all my my lonesome doing this one. This included
setting a new panel.
s
"John Albert" <j.al...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:%THqj.54712$Pv2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
S. Barker
own place, it was built in 1877 but not wired until the early fifties. All
cloth covered romex. I've removed all that also. Believe me, I have a big
pile of it in the back waiting to be burned.
s
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ecacb671-4507-4b49...@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
i bet you have K&T covered with insulation..........
and are burying your head in the sand over this as a known hazard
Terry
It was comon for splices to be in the walls. Unless you were tearing
the walls down how would you know?
RBM
"S. Barker" <ichase...@coldmail.com> wrote in message
news:PZKdnTrnteklFzba...@giganews.com...
> Actually having the breakers will make it safer. This is because you will
> put 15A breakers on all the K&T stuff, and there's no chance of them being
> over fused like there is with the screw in fuses.
He can simply install type "T" fusestat bases, to prevent oversized fusing
RBM
> put 15A breakers on all the K&T stuff, and there's no chance of them being
> over fused like there is with the screw in fuses.
That's type "S" fusestat base, my mistake
hal...@aol.com
nature. cat knocked over a lamp 139K in damages.
I could see places where the K&T had overheated, the house was on
breakers, K&T connections were buried in walls, not accessible, much
of the wiring was missing its insulation even in areas undisturbed by
the fire.
no where did i say rewire today
but its a good thing to replace, at least off all outlet circuits.
hey at resale time buyer will want discount for rewiring, or just
plain not buy.
and K&T isnt getting any newer, and insurance just more picky.........
S. Barker
just remove them and go back to a standard fuse?
s
"RBM" <r...@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:47ab8eae$0$15190$607e...@cv.net...
S. Barker
Seriously, though, i've stripped out the ones that had K&T as a matter of
course.
s
"Terry" <kilo...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:hd3nq3tcjr26joakv...@4ax.com...
RBM
actually a special tool made to remove it. I call it the "mangler". You wind
up destroying the socket. It's a cheap alternative to a breaker panel,
although you still have the danger of having live exposed terminals to deal
with
"S. Barker" <ichase...@coldmail.com> wrote in message
news:scmdnUClBfc3CTba...@giganews.com...
S. Barker
"Blattus Slafaly £ ¥ 0/00 :)"
circuit into it. Then you can add new circuits and wiring at your
leisure and remove the old wiring as you go. (If you know what you are
doing)
--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8
hal...@aol.com
> Once the base is screwed in, it's next to impossible to remove. There is
> actually a special tool made to remove it. I call it the "mangler". You wind
> up destroying the socket. It's a cheap alternative to a breaker panel,
> although you still have the danger of having live exposed terminals to deal
> with
>
>
> news:scmdnUClBfc3CTba...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
> > I've wondered about those. �Do they not come back out? �Couldn't someone
> > just remove them and go back to a standard fuse?
>
> > s
>
> > "RBM" <r...@noemail.com> wrote in message
> >news:47ab8eae$0$15190$607e...@cv.net...
>
> >>news:PZKdnTrnteklFzba...@giganews.com...
> >>> Actually having the breakers will make it safer. �This is because you
> >>> will put 15A breakers on all the K&T stuff, and there's no chance of
> >>> them being over fused like there is with the screw in fuses.
>
> >> He can simply install type "T" fusestat bases, to prevent oversized
> >> fusing
>
> >> One house i bought (and
> >>> rewired) had 4 THIRTY amp fuses in the box. �Also, two of the circuits
> >>> were screwed down on the buss side and were not fused at all.
>
> >>> s
>
> >>>news:%THqj.54712$Pv2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
> >>>> This is just a general question, not aimed at anyone's previous
> >>>> posting.
>
> >>>> I have an old, 2-story house, about 1500 sq. ft., built in 1911, with
> >>>> knob & tube wiring and 60-amp service (fuse box).
>
> >>>> I was thinking of having the old service replaced with 100-amp service
> >>>> and modern circuit breakers. Will this be compatible with the existing
> >>>> (old) wiring?
>
> >>>> Having said that, I realize that actually replacing the wiring itself
> >>>> is a BIG job. Does anyone have ballpark costs on what a job like that
> >>>> prices out to?
>
> >>>> Thanks,
>
> - Show quoted text -
many homeowners insurance cmpanies refuse to insure homes with fuses,
although in many respects fuses are better
BETA-33
>
> From what I have read in the last couple of days, you can repair an
> existing K&T circuit if it met the code requirements at the time. So
> if BETA had a "proper" 3-way switching arrangement and a broken hot
> wire, the way I see it, he could just butt splice a new piece of wire
> in it's place. You can still use K&T to repair K&T.
>
> I don't think the switching arrangement we are assuming BETA has was
> ever code compliant so it would not be legal to repair it.
>
> One other thing BETA should consider is that the neutral wire could
> still be in use. And splicing a neutral together that is still in use
> can cause dancing. :)
>
Thanks Terry and everyone else for all of your suggestions and the time and
energy you put into trying to help me get this fixed.
I finally decided to give up. I took up 2 more boards in the attic floor
and got better access to the wiring to the hallway light from above. Then I
used the inductance tester to see if I could find any "hot" wires. Neither
wire going to the hallway light was hot, and I traced both back as far as I
could and got the same thing. Those wires and all 6 wires to the two 3-way
switches all showed no power.