I want to thank Europe
Mr. Reggie
offer support to the US when the Red Chinese held our servicemen hostage.
But the reaction of the EU and of NATO has been more then reassuring. I,
until today, had put the word Allies in quotes when referring to Europe, but
no more. We have far more in common than we disagree upon.
Thank God for Europe, thank God for the United States of America.
xeno6696
"Mr. Reggie" <no...@nothing.com> wrote in message
news:uGMiBJAPBHA.784@cpimsnntpa03...
So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
--
------
"No rest for the Lord, sayeth the wicked."
XeNO
a.k.a.
Digital Messiah,
Co-Founder of the:
Order of the 8th Digit
aa#1901
>
Jeffrey C. Dege
>
>"Mr. Reggie" <no...@nothing.com> wrote in message
>news:uGMiBJAPBHA.784@cpimsnntpa03...
>> I am a Euro-skeptic, and was appalled that the nations of Europe refused
>to
>> offer support to the US when the Red Chinese held our servicemen hostage.
>> But the reaction of the EU and of NATO has been more then reassuring. I,
>> until today, had put the word Allies in quotes when referring to Europe,
>but
>> no more. We have far more in common than we disagree upon.
>>
>> Thank God for Europe, thank God for the United States of America.
>
>So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
Do you want a full theological discussion of why God allows evil to
exist in the world?
--
Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
xeno6696
"Jeffrey C. Dege" <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
news:slrn9q0amj...@jdege.visi.com...
Not really. Just venting.
--
------
"No rest for the Lord, sayeth the wicked."
XeNO
a.k.a.
Digital Messiah,
Co-Founder of the:
Order of the 8th Digit
aa#1901
>
Scott Lowther
> Do you want a full theological discussion of why God allows evil to
> exist in the world?
Which God?
Steve Hix
> So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
Permitting people to exercise free will.
You would perhaps prefer the alternative, people as robots
controlled externally at all times...?
Mark Richardson
Why are these the only two choices?
--------------------------------------------
Mark Richardson. mDOTrichardson@utasDOTeduDOTau
Member of SMASH
(Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheist with a Sense of Humor)
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."
Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the Younger,"
Roman stoic philosopher, writer, and politician (4-65).
--------------------------------------------------
Hans Peeters
The main reason for this attack is that (mostly fundamental fanatics) see
that their 'way of 'life' is slowly but unstoppebel replaced by the western
civilization. Their territories are decreasing all the times..
Last and desperated 'fights'?
Hans
"Mr. Reggie" <no...@nothing.com> schreef in bericht
news:uGMiBJAPBHA.784@cpimsnntpa03...
Brett A. Pasternack
No. We want a full explanation of why you support someone who harbors
terrorists.
Also, of why you felt the need to cross-post this to two atheism
newsgroups.
Yang
>In article <yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "xeno6696" <xeno...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>
>Permitting people to exercise free will.
Yes, the mighty god proving his existence with his non-existence.
Unless you are also willing to forego such theological hand-waving as
deux-ex-machina miracles, the "free-will" excuse rings a little
hollow.
>You would perhaps prefer the alternative, people as robots
>controlled externally at all times...?
If you are willing to let go of the miracle stories of so-and-so who
prayed really hard and with the "glory of god" escapes certain death,
then I will accept your explantion. Otherwise you need to figure out
which of the conflicting theology you want more.
John C. Randolph
> So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
Dude, I'm an atheist too, but that was just snotty.
-jcr
Mr. Reggie
> > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>
> Dude, I'm an atheist too, but that was just snotty.
Yeah, I'm agnostic myself, and this guy is just a sick fucker.
Mike Cleven
Not necessarly; he said in one reply that he was "just venting"; unless
you guys from the non-history groups are more familiar with him than we
are, it sounds like he's just adopted post-trauma un-faith/dis-belief in
a benevolent deity. Whoever said an all-powerful being should share
human priorities? - is my own response; but really his statement was
typical of people who have just witnessed something horrible; ask even a
religious psychologist/psychiatrist; the answer's not theological, and
the question was largely rhetorical anyway.....
MC
Tony Q.
news:3ba05218...@news.service.uci.edu...
Actually, you have to give up revealed religion entirely. Human free will
is incompatible with any divine intervention entirely, IMHO. Try John
Fowles' _The Aristos_ for an argument on this.
- Tony Q.
sceadu
> Yes we have the same origins and values after all..
> The main reason for this attack is that (mostly fundamental fanatics) see
> that their 'way of 'life' is slowly but unstoppebel replaced by the western
> civilization. Their territories are decreasing all the times..
> Last and desperated 'fights'?
> Hans
Arabic, it might be because Israel is killing their people with
American weapons.
Sceadu
Robert J. Kolker
"Jeffrey C. Dege" wrote:
>
> Do you want a full theological discussion of why God allows evil to
> exist in the world?
That is not even a problem. It is well known that God is a fuck up.
Bob Kolker
Steve Knight
Like in your heaven?
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
Iain
I am a euroskeptic, never had any doubt about europes good intentions, still
don't, am still a euroskeptic, long live the eu, but long live our national
independence as well.
Our being in the Euro wouldn't have made the situation any better.
--
Iain.
Rune Børsjø
Richardson) wrote:
>Why are these the only two choices?
Shush, Mark, you're going to overload his neural pathways.
--
Useful Phrases to Know when Traveling in The Middle East:
Akbar khali-kili haftir loftan - Thank you for showing me your marvelous gun
Rune Børsjø
>> So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>
>Dude, I'm an atheist too, but that was just snotty.
Hmm, I disagree John. The point here is that the Christian God, and the God of
Islam is one and the same, and that if we do not learn from this what religion
can do to our minds and our hearts (metaphorically speaking), we stand in danger
of going down the same path.
--
(please note that this has been my sig for the last 3+ months)
Rune Børsjø
Stop being silly, guys. It's not disrespecting the victims of this tradgedy, to
make a snide remark at people who think their god is better than anyone else's
god, especially when they are one and the same, and god is what cost those
victims their lives.
He didn't insult the victim. He asked the apparently religious person a valid
question, if in a provocative way, which was meant only to the authors and
others who think as he does.
Rune Børsjø
wrote:
>Yes we have the same origins and values after all..
Well that's a simplified way of putting it. But yes, we do have the same
"values", we just give them different names. Americans usually call them "All
American, Christian values" while we call them "Humane" or "Ethical". Most
europeans are only traditionally religious, while americans seem to feel the
need to express their faith in the allmighty at every curb and intersection.
Rune Børsjø
>Or they might be homegrown loonies, we don't know. And if they are
They're not. Besides, homegrown loonies don't hijack jets or do suicide
missions.
>Arabic, it might be because Israel is killing their people with
>American weapons.
They are arabic. Egyptians and Saudis. And no, of course it's not Israel, are
you insane? Either way you could not blame Israel, just as you cannot blame
Egypt or Saudi Arabia, which can only be described as "allies" of the United
States in the region. The thing with all these arabs who did this, is that they
grew up relatively wealthy socities, with good families, health. They were
highly educated, and they "martyred" themselves for the soul purpouse of the
"cause". Allah, and the Holy Jihad.
Kyle Haight
I'm an atheist, but if I did believe in God I think the answer to the
question would be obvious: He was busy answering the prayers of radical
Islamic terrorists.
--
Kyle Haight
kha...@alumni.ucsd.edu
rosignol
Rune B?rsj? <NOSPA...@chello.noNOSPAM> wrote:
[zap]
> Well that's a simplified way of putting it. But yes, we do have the same
> "values", we just give them different names. Americans usually call them "All
> American, Christian values" while we call them "Humane" or "Ethical". Most
> europeans are only traditionally religious, while americans seem to feel the
> need to express their faith in the allmighty at every curb and intersection.
Only when they cut me off in traffic... <g>
Hey, I can laugh again.
Thanks.
--
al Qaeda delenda est
Mike Cleven
Somebody else around here was claiming that your problem was that you're
some kind of religious fanatic. Which religion would that be, exactly,
given the kind of thing that you've just quoted? The Church of
Mephistopheles?
MC
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>Whoever said an all-powerful being should share
>human priorities? - is my own response; but really his statement was
>typical of people who have just witnessed something horrible; ask even a
>religious psychologist/psychiatrist; the answer's not theological, and
>the question was largely rhetorical anyway.....
Not to an atheist who's constantly being told how wonderful little
goddy is.
Where WAS he while a dozen nut jobs killed thousands and put the
greatest nation in the world into a blind panic? Same place he was
when his staunch believer Hitler killed 6 million of his chosen
people?
It's not rhetorical at all. But it's disgusting that anyone would
mention how good religion is right after religion took the lives of
thousands of innocent people.
--
Al - Unnumbered Atheist #infinity
rukbat at optonline dot net
Al Klein
Dege) posted in alt.atheism:
>Do you want a full theological discussion of why God allows evil to
>exist in the world?
Either he wants it or he's incapable of stopping it. No explanation
you can provide can sidestep that.
The first makes him evil.
The second makes him impotent against it.
Either way, he's not anything to worship.
Al Klein
>Yes we have the same origins and values after all..
>The main reason for this attack is that (mostly fundamental fanatics) see
>that their 'way of 'life' is slowly but unstoppebel replaced by the western
>civilization. Their territories are decreasing all the times..
>Last and desperated 'fights'?
Time to 'westernize' them, then.
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>if they are
>Arabic, it might be because Israel is killing their people with
>American weapons.
Which might be because they're trying to kill all Jewish Israelites.
Israel offered peace. What was the answer?
Sorry, but whoever they turn out to be, their time ran out last week.
Chris Nelson
news:sehix-568708....@news.dsldesigns.com...
> In article <yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "xeno6696"
<xeno...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>
> Permitting people to exercise free will.
...by allowing thousands of innocent people to die? Isn't your god supposed
to be loving and all-powerful? What a crock! Your god, if he exists, is a
monster.
By the way, I exercise free will all the time. But I would never dream of
killing anyone, much less thousands of innocents.
> You would perhaps prefer the alternative, people as robots
> controlled externally at all times...?
Why would this be the alternative?
--
Chris
AUDIO VIDEO DISCO - "I hear, I see, I learn"
Kyle Haight
Al Klein <ehx...@bcgbayvar.arg> wrote:
>
>Either he wants it or he's incapable of stopping it. No explanation
>you can provide can sidestep that.
>
>The first makes him evil.
>
>The second makes him impotent against it.
>
>Either way, he's not anything to worship.
ObSF: James Morrow's _Blameless in Abbadon_.
--
Kyle Haight
kha...@alumni.ucsd.edu
Steve Hix
> Steve Hix <se...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:sehix-568708....@news.dsldesigns.com...
> > In article <yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "xeno6696"
> <xeno...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
> >
> > Permitting people to exercise free will.
>
> ...by allowing thousands of innocent people to die? Isn't your god supposed
> to be loving and all-powerful? What a crock! Your god, if he exists, is a
> monster.
What you're calling for here is a removal of free will. If we have it, we have
to take the bad with the good. If it doesn't exist, then you have no choice.
I think that would be worse.
> By the way, I exercise free will all the time. But I would never dream of
> killing anyone, much less thousands of innocents.
Good for you.
The people who hijacked the airliners Tuesday weren't like you. There are
a lot more like them running around.
xeno6696
"Steve Hix" <se...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:sehix-568708....@news.dsldesigns.com...
> In article <yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "xeno6696"
<xeno...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>
> Permitting people to exercise free will.
>
> controlled externally at all times...?
Considering that he calls us his children, and kills us, and allow us to
kill ourselves... If he loved us like children, he wouldn't allow things
like this. (And I only call god a "he" because only the chauvinistic
prick-waving characteristics of men could have things fucked up as bad as
this.) Remember, you're in dangerous territory if you believe in miracles.
You can't say what you just did and also believe in miracles. If you do,
I've already proven you wrong.
But for the sake of argument...
Yep. I'd give up my free will so another child wouldn't be raped, or
another plane wouldn't go into a building. Small price to pay.
Looks like I'm already more compassionate than your god.
--
--
I live my life making the best possible choices for myself, and those around
me. If god will punish me for doing what I believe to be right, than why
would I actually wish to be with him in the first place? In the end, I'd
rather support Lucifer than Christ. (Too bad neither exsist.)
Respectfully yours,
tHe DiGItAl MeSSiAh
XeNO
Co-Founder of the:
Order of the 8th Digit
aa#1901
xeno6696
"John C. Randolph" <j...@idiom.com> wrote in message
news:3BA0579C...@idiom.com...
The truth hurts, doesn't it though? "god bless america?" Damn he did a
great job! We should ALL feel REALLY BLESSED!
--
------
"No rest for the Lord, sayeth the wicked."
XeNO
a.k.a.
Digital Messiah,
xeno6696
>
> > > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
> >
> > Dude, I'm an atheist too, but that was just snotty.
>
>
> Yeah, I'm agnostic myself, and this guy is just a sick fucker.
>
>
Why is it sick to point out that the same god that our national leader
blesses us with had failed miserably in the loving his children dept.?
Personally I find the terrorists sick. Myself I just find as a pissed off
person, pissed b/c people are so friggin blind to the fact that their god
failed them.
--
--------
"It's curious to me why there are some people who are more interested in
keeping the Ten Commandments on the City Hall lawn than they are in keeping
the Ten Commandments.
- Ald. Don Richards,
former Catholic priest
------
"No rest for the Lord, sayeth the wicked."
XeNO
a.k.a.
Digital Messiah,
John C. Randolph
>
> "John C. Randolph" <j...@idiom.com> wrote in message
> news:3BA0579C...@idiom.com...
> > xeno6696 wrote:
> >
> > > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
> >
> > Dude, I'm an atheist too, but that was just snotty.
> >
> > -jcr
>
> The truth hurts, doesn't it though? "god bless america?" Damn he did a
> great job! We should ALL feel REALLY BLESSED!
Do you have anything useful to say, or do you want to keep railing
against a fictional character in which you claim you don't believe?
-jcr
Mikey 5-0
How else to explain the duck-billed platypus?
Mike
Mikey 5-0
===============================================
"I get my kicks above the waistline, sunshine!"
- Murray Head, "One Night in Bangkok"
==============================================
Contact me on ICQ if you want to email me.
ICQ: 5039638
Mikey 5-0
>Steve Hix <se...@mac.com> wrote in message
>news:sehix-568708....@news.dsldesigns.com...
>> In article <yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "xeno6696"
><xeno...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>> > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>>
>> Permitting people to exercise free will.
>
>...by allowing thousands of innocent people to die? Isn't your god supposed
>to be loving and all-powerful? What a crock! Your god, if he exists, is a
>monster.
Yeah, thats Old Testament God, he wasnt a nice chap. Then he got this
PR Job. His Agent, Jesus, was this hot-shot young advertising exec -
did a really brilliant number, totally turned people around on the
whole 'wailing and gnashing of teeth thing'. Ended up in a bit of a
scandal though.
But God? It's still a bastard, it just got a PR job.
Robert J. Kolker
Mikey 5-0 wrote:
>
> How else to explain the duck-billed platypus?
bida Bing!
Bob Kolker
Cosmin Corbea
news:3ba1a6b1...@news.supernews.com...
> There can be only one, "Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@mediaone.net>:
> >That is not even a problem. It is well known that God is a fuck up.
>
> How else to explain the duck-billed platypus?
ObSF: Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent
Regards,
Cosmin Corbea
Rassleholic
not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a Christian, I
personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
thereof).
--
Rassle "Insert humorous comment here" holic
RassNet: http://www20.brinkster.com/rassleholic
E-Mail: rassleholic at jam dot rr dot com
ICQ : 96211106
"xeno6696" <xeno...@home.com> wrote in message
news:yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
>
> "Mr. Reggie" <no...@nothing.com> wrote in message
> news:uGMiBJAPBHA.784@cpimsnntpa03...
> > I am a Euro-skeptic, and was appalled that the nations of Europe refused
> to
> > offer support to the US when the Red Chinese held our servicemen
hostage.
> > But the reaction of the EU and of NATO has been more then reassuring. I,
> > until today, had put the word Allies in quotes when referring to Europe,
> but
> > no more. We have far more in common than we disagree upon.
> >
> > Thank God for Europe, thank God for the United States of America.
> >
>
> So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> ------
> "No rest for the Lord, sayeth the wicked."
> XeNO
> a.k.a.
> Digital Messiah,
> Co-Founder of the:
Therion Ware
<donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote:
>We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!! This is
>not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a Christian, I
>personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
>thereof).
That's nice. Thousands of people exist simply so they can die horribly
in order to test *your* faith. How very important you must be to this
God of yours.
Fred Stone
<top-post moved>
> "xeno6696" <xeno...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
> >
> > "Mr. Reggie" <no...@nothing.com> wrote in message
> > news:uGMiBJAPBHA.784@cpimsnntpa03...
> > > I am a Euro-skeptic, and was appalled that the nations of Europe refused
> > to
> > > offer support to the US when the Red Chinese held our servicemen
> hostage.
> > > But the reaction of the EU and of NATO has been more then reassuring. I,
> > > until today, had put the word Allies in quotes when referring to Europe,
> > but
> > > no more. We have far more in common than we disagree upon.
> > >
> > > Thank God for Europe, thank God for the United States of America.
> > >
> >
> > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
> >
> We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!! This is
> not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a Christian, I
> personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
> thereof).
>
If God (which I don't believe exists) has anything at all to do with 9/11,
even if it's just "to test us" it's a murdering ravening monster,
worthy only of contempt, not worship.
You might as well sacrifice babies to Baal, as worship a God that would
arrange or even allow such atrocities.
YOU are just as bad. Trying to make religious hay out of this terrible tragedy.
--
Fred Stone
aa # 1369
EAC Microbiologist - Saccharomyces Division
BAAWA Brewmaster
Rassleholic
civilians. Neither did God. Pissing on other peoples' faith isn't helping
either. I meant when I said that God is testing us, I was referring to
Christians. Despite what you say about God, I still believe in Him and
always will. This does not make me a weak person. It takes a lot of
courage to believe in something or someone for whom no proof exists,
especially when people like you ridicule us for it. All I care about is
that thousands of people died because evil men twisted the words of Islam
for their own selfish reasons. This was not an act of God, it was an act of
men and those who would use this tragedy to ridicule people of faith are
just sick. Before you say, "Well you're doing the same thing by this whole
'God is testing us' deal" I was just stating what I believe. No matter what
you say, nothing can deter me from believing in God, no matter what.
--
Rassle "Insert humorous comment here" holic
RassNet: http://www20.brinkster.com/rassleholic
E-Mail: rassleholic at jam dot rr dot com
ICQ : 96211106
"Fred Stone" <fsto...@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:3BA214F2...@earthlink.net...
Rassleholic
test my faith. I was reffering to Christians when I said God was testing
us.
--
Rassle "Insert humorous comment here" holic
RassNet: http://www20.brinkster.com/rassleholic
E-Mail: rassleholic at jam dot rr dot com
ICQ : 96211106
"Therion Ware" <tw...@city-of-dis.com.eac> wrote in message
news:0h44qtkp2sfr3k4mo...@4ax.com...
Fred Stone
> I am not just as bad. I didn't kill thousands of innocent American
> civilians. Neither did God.
Could It have stopped this? Then It is responsible. And so are you
for worshiping such a thing.
> Pissing on other peoples' faith isn't helping
> either. I meant when I said that God is testing us, I was referring to
> Christians. Despite what you say about God, I still believe in Him and
> always will. This does not make me a weak person. It takes a lot of
> courage to believe in something or someone for whom no proof exists,
> especially when people like you ridicule us for it.
It takes even more to be atheist, when the President himself says we
don't deserve to be citizens.
> All I care about is
> that thousands of people died because evil men twisted the words of Islam
> for their own selfish reasons. This was not an act of God, it was an act of
> men and those who would use this tragedy to ridicule people of faith are
> just sick. Before you say, "Well you're doing the same thing by this whole
> 'God is testing us' deal" I was just stating what I believe. No matter what
> you say, nothing can deter me from believing in God, no matter what.
I was commenting on this belief of yours. You are, of course, welcome
to beleive any damned thing you want. But when you make comments like
yours in a public forum like this one, and I'm posting from alt.atheism,
I am free to respond to them.
Don't you think God could have chosen a less violent way to test you?
Rassleholic
--
Rassle "Insert humorous comment here" holic
RassNet: http://www20.brinkster.com/rassleholic
E-Mail: rassleholic at jam dot rr dot com
ICQ : 96211106
"Fred Stone" <fsto...@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:3BA23DA7...@earthlink.net...
Someone on the plane with a cell phone (there was probably at least one)
could have stopped it or at least warned about it. Does that make them
responsible?
> > Pissing on other peoples' faith isn't helping
> > either. I meant when I said that God is testing us, I was referring to
> > Christians. Despite what you say about God, I still believe in Him and
> > always will. This does not make me a weak person. It takes a lot of
> > courage to believe in something or someone for whom no proof exists,
> > especially when people like you ridicule us for it.
>
> It takes even more to be atheist, when the President himself says we
> don't deserve to be citizens.
He never said that. Anyone can say, "There is no god" when they look at
things like this.
>
> > All I care about is
> > that thousands of people died because evil men twisted the words of
Islam
> > for their own selfish reasons. This was not an act of God, it was an
act of
> > men and those who would use this tragedy to ridicule people of faith are
> > just sick. Before you say, "Well you're doing the same thing by this
whole
> > 'God is testing us' deal" I was just stating what I believe. No matter
what
> > you say, nothing can deter me from believing in God, no matter what.
>
> I was commenting on this belief of yours. You are, of course, welcome
> to beleive any damned thing you want. But when you make comments like
> yours in a public forum like this one, and I'm posting from alt.atheism,
> I am free to respond to them.
>
> Don't you think God could have chosen a less violent way to test you?
He could have and I wish he would have, but I'm not God.
Fabian
"Rassleholic" <donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote in message
news:DBqo7.260579$g_3.57...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> Yes, I am important to Him. And no, thousands of people don't exist
just to
> test my faith. I was reffering to Christians when I said God was
testing
> us.
Was he also testing the faith of the office workers?
--
--
Fabian
Love is when a girl puts on perfume and a boy puts on cologne and they
go out and smell each other.
Rassleholic
others, I don't know. Please don't assume that I think they are all in hell
because I don't.
--
Rassle "Insert humorous comment here" holic
RassNet: http://www20.brinkster.com/rassleholic
E-Mail: rassleholic at jam dot rr dot com
ICQ : 96211106
"Fabian" <mu...@chung.ii> wrote in message
news:bNro7.16439$uM2.1...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
Therion Ware
<donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote in alt.atheism:
>Yes, I am important to Him. And no, thousands of people don't exist just to
>test my faith. I was reffering to Christians when I said God was testing
>us.
Oh. That's all right then....
I suppose to make the deaths of others into an event important only
for what it teaches Christians is the highest praise in your rather
ill thought out and tawdry theology.
And if it isn't, perhaps you might care to engage your brain and the
thing that makes you human, your capacity for empathy, before you open
your mouth again.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.co.uk>. 45.00 gets your video on DVD.
There is no EAC, so delete it from the email, if you want to communicate.
The Plasmatron
> In article <yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "xeno6696" <xeno...@home.com> wrote:
>> So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
> Permitting people to exercise free will.
What the Hell IS free will anyway? I have yet to have an explaination
that comes down to anything other than a bit of pure randomness after the
semantic bullshit is taken away. Do you have a better explaination? As
is I refuse to believe in free will until I know what it is, and if it
*is* just that some randomness occurs then WHY IS THAT WORTH ALL THE
MISERY WE SUPPOSEDLY HAVE TO GO THROUGH so that we can have free will?
> You would perhaps prefer the alternative, people as robots
> controlled externally at all times...?
Controlled externally as opposed to what? We're already controlled by
all the known and unknown laws of physics. We ARE nothing more than
organic computers ALREADY. Who would be controlling us? Would we know we
are being controlled? How would it be worse? Hell, what would it mean?
Perhaps you mean some sort of dictatorship? Hells bells man, we already
have governments, ranging from fascist dictatorships to near anarchistic
democracies.
All I can see is you are giving us a choice between some "free
will" nonsense, and "controlled externally" by some undefined force or
entity, and the only other information seems to be that if we go for
"controlled externally" we get rid of all cause for human suffering and
live in a perfect world. I know I'm missing 99% of the relevant
information, but so far "controlled externally" sounds better to me.
--
The Invisible Pink Unicorn made it all....
Fluffy Orange Bunny got run over for our sins!
-The prophet Clayton Forno
The Left Reverend Plasm...@godisdead.com
Atheist Number Fifteen Score and Seventeen
BAAWA school of subtlety graduate
Andrew J. Brehm
> In alt.atheism Steve Hix <se...@mac.com> wrote: > In article
> <yQVn7.2524$kf1.8...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com>, "xeno6696"
> <xeno...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >> So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>
> > Permitting people to exercise free will.
>
> What the Hell IS free will anyway?
A metaphysical axiom.
> I have yet to have an explaination that comes down to anything other than
> a bit of pure randomness after the semantic bullshit is taken away.
There is no explanation. It's an axiom. You can either believe it or
not.
> Do you have a better explaination?
I don't. I believe in free will because I believe God gave us free will.
I don't like the idea that I'm not in charge of my own destiny, thus I
believe in free will.
> As is I refuse to believe in free will until I know what it is, and if it
> *is* just that some randomness occurs then WHY IS THAT WORTH ALL THE
> MISERY WE SUPPOSEDLY HAVE TO GO THROUGH so that we can have free will?
Without free will there would be no misery nor would there be fun. We
would just be.
> > You would perhaps prefer the alternative, people as robots controlled
> > externally at all times...?
>
> Controlled externally as opposed to what? We're already controlled by
> all the known and unknown laws of physics. We ARE nothing more than
> organic computers ALREADY.
You state that as if it was a fact. It's only what you believe. But
believing that doesn't help us in any way. If you were only an organic
computer, like an insect, why would you even think about whether there
was free will?
> Who would be controlling us?
According to determinism God or nature would control us, according to
libertarianism (the opposite of determinism) we would control ourselves.
> Would we know we are being controlled?
I don't think so.
> How would it be worse?
Life would be more meaningless.
> Hell, what would it mean?
Nothing at all.
> Perhaps you mean some sort of dictatorship? Hells bells man, we already
> have governments, ranging from fascist dictatorships to near anarchistic
> democracies.
A fascist dictatorship is an example of a government built upon the
principle that nature wants us to act in certain ways. I don't like it.
> All I can see is you are giving us a choice between some "free will"
> nonsense, and "controlled externally" by some undefined force or entity,
> and the only other information seems to be that if we go for "controlled
> externally" we get rid of all cause for human suffering and live in a
> perfect world. I know I'm missing 99% of the relevant information, but so
> far "controlled externally" sounds better to me.
This assumption would only be true if God exists and if we could still
feel happiness without free will. But without free will, I wouldn't know
whether we would actually exist, or whether our bodies would simply walk
around like organic robots.
--
Fan of Woody Allen
PowerPC User
Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza
The Plasmatron
> We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!! This is
> not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a Christian, I
> personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
> thereof).
Test of faith eh? So you still have that God at least gave the
terrorists enough approval to let them do it. Then God is just as guilty
as everyone else who has aided and abetted terrorists and is the enemy.
If we find him he should be tried as an accomplice as well and hopefully
excuted a little more permanently this time.
--
Robert J. Kolker
"Andrew J. Brehm" wrote:
> This assumption would only be true if God exists and if we could still
> feel happiness without free will. But without free will, I wouldn't know
> whether we would actually exist, or whether our bodies would simply walk
> around like organic robots.
What makes you think you are NOT an organic robot.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
The Plasmatron wrote:
> terrorists enough approval to let them do it. Then God is just as guilty
> as everyone else who has aided and abetted terrorists and is the enemy.
> If we find him he should be tried as an accomplice as well and hopefully
> excuted a little more permanently this time.
God on trial. Verdict at 11:00 pm.
Bob Kolker
Andrew J. Brehm
I said so in the posting you replied to:
"I don't like the idea that I'm not in charge of my own destiny, thus I
believe in free will."
I simply chose to believe in free will.
If my belief is right, everything is fine.
If it is not, I couldn't have chosen differently anyway.
The Plasmatron
They had no clue what was going to happen. God is supposedly all
knowing. On the only plane where they DID know what was going to happen
all the evidence shows that they rose up, beat the attackers, and crashed
the plane in a safe place.
>> > Pissing on other peoples' faith isn't helping
>> > either. I meant when I said that God is testing us, I was referring to
>> > Christians. Despite what you say about God, I still believe in Him and
>> > always will. This does not make me a weak person. It takes a lot of
>> > courage to believe in something or someone for whom no proof exists,
>> > especially when people like you ridicule us for it.
>>
>> It takes even more to be atheist, when the President himself says we
>> don't deserve to be citizens.
> He never said that. Anyone can say, "There is no god" when they look at
> things like this.
You are dead wrong. Bush, and his father BOTH have said quite
specifically that "atheists should not be considered citizens". That is
an excact quote.
Your belifs are in the majority. There is no bravery to faith in the
majority, and there is no moral advantage to beliving in things without
any reason to.
>> > All I care about is
>> > that thousands of people died because evil men twisted the words of
> Islam
>> > for their own selfish reasons. This was not an act of God, it was an
> act of
>> > men and those who would use this tragedy to ridicule people of faith are
>> > just sick. Before you say, "Well you're doing the same thing by this
> whole
>> > 'God is testing us' deal" I was just stating what I believe. No matter
> what
>> > you say, nothing can deter me from believing in God, no matter what.
>>
>> I was commenting on this belief of yours. You are, of course, welcome
>> to beleive any damned thing you want. But when you make comments like
>> yours in a public forum like this one, and I'm posting from alt.atheism,
>> I am free to respond to them.
>>
>> Don't you think God could have chosen a less violent way to test you?
> He could have and I wish he would have, but I'm not God.
If he could have, and did not, then he is at the very LEAST not all
loving. If this was allowed as a "test" that implies that it is a
decision he made on purpose, as if he would normally do something to stop
this, and that makes him guilty of aiding and abbetting terrorists. If
god exists he should be punished for this and every other atrocity he has
given tacit approval to.
Steve Knight
<donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote:
>We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!! This is
>not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a Christian, I
>personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
>thereof).
Thanks. What a clear and concise post.
I'll be as simple as I can.
If your god knows everything and is pure love, why did he let so
many people die such a violent death?
As an atheist, any being of pure love and mercy would not use
excruciating pain, fear and suffering to make a point.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
David Moisan
<donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote:
>We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!! This is
>not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists.
As a Christian, I
>personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
>thereof).
That's *better?*
Take care,
Dave
David Moisan, N1KGH, SKYWARN n1...@amsat.org
Invisible Disability: http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/invisible_disability.html
GE Superradio FAQ: http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/faqs/superradio/gesr_faq.html
Sangean ATS-909 FAQ: http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/faqs/sangean/ats909faq.html
sceadu
> On 13 Sep 2001 03:56:51 -0700, sce...@my-deja.com (sceadu) posted in
> alt.atheism:
>
> >if they are
> >Arabic, it might be because Israel is killing their people with
> >American weapons.
>
> Which might be because they're trying to kill all Jewish Israelites.
Not all Palestinians.
> Israel offered peace. What was the answer?
Evicting people from their land and planting settlements there is
offering peace!? Bull-dozing entire neighborhoods whenever a soldier
is killed is offering peace!? What do you consider War!!?
> Sorry, but whoever they turn out to be, their time ran out last week.
True. But the fact that someone is evil does not mean that he/she is
wrong about everything.
Sceadu
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>Yeah, thats Old Testament God, he wasnt a nice chap. Then he got this
>PR Job. His Agent, Jesus, was this hot-shot young advertising exec -
>did a really brilliant number, totally turned people around on the
>whole 'wailing and gnashing of teeth thing'. Ended up in a bit of a
>scandal though.
You read the name "Jesus" on the office door, but the guy actually
sitting in the office doing the PR work was named Saul. God gave the
repaint job to the lowest bidder and he figured the max profit was in
not doing anything.
--
Those not willing to fight for freedom don't deserve freedom.
Extremism in defense of liberty is *not* a vice.
NEVER FORGET THE WTC AND THE PENTAGON!
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>"John C. Randolph" <j...@idiom.com> wrote in message
>news:3BA0579C...@idiom.com...
>> xeno6696 wrote:
>> > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>> Dude, I'm an atheist too, but that was just snotty.
>The truth hurts, doesn't it though? "god bless america?" Damn he did a
>great job! We should ALL feel REALLY BLESSED!
Especially the widows and orphans.
Robert J. Kolker
"Andrew J. Brehm" wrote:
>
> I simply chose to believe in free will.
Of course you do, that is how you are programmed.
Bob Kolker
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.org> wrote in message news:<v382qt8l6v7qfh8hn...@4ax.com>...
>> On 13 Sep 2001 03:56:51 -0700, sce...@my-deja.com (sceadu) posted in
>> alt.atheism:
>> >if they are
>> >Arabic, it might be because Israel is killing their people with
>> >American weapons.
>> Which might be because they're trying to kill all Jewish Israelites.
>Not all Palestinians.
You're right - almost all.
>> Israel offered peace. What was the answer?
>Evicting people from their land and planting settlements there is
>offering peace!?
They offered peace before anyone was evicted. (If you think Israel
originally [back in the spring of 1948] drove the Arabs off their
land, you've learned fantasy, not history. Their own Imams drove them
off their lands.)
>Bull-dozing entire neighborhoods whenever a soldier
>is killed is offering peace!?
It's the law. Don't kill an Israeli soldier of your village will be
razed. (No one is forcing the Palestinians to kill Israeli soldiers -
they have a choice.)
> What do you consider War!!?
What was done to us Tuesday.
>> Sorry, but whoever they turn out to be, their time ran out last week.
>True. But the fact that someone is evil does not mean that he/she is
>wrong about everything.
But it does mean that we have to teach him to be not-evil.
xeno6696
> xeno6696 wrote:
> >
> > "John C. Randolph" <j...@idiom.com> wrote in message
> > news:3BA0579C...@idiom.com...
> > > xeno6696 wrote:
> > >
> > > > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
> > >
> > > Dude, I'm an atheist too, but that was just snotty.
> > >
> >
> > The truth hurts, doesn't it though? "god bless america?" Damn he did a
> > great job! We should ALL feel REALLY BLESSED!
>
> against a fictional character in which you claim you don't believe?
>
> -jcr
And what would you determine as useful? Obviously your own post here isn't.
Instead of addressing the question of why should I or anyone else, atheist,
agnostic, or theist, feel blessed, you decide to demean me, (either
purposefully or not.) and challenge my philosophy. Yeah god is fictional,
and I am getting really pissed off that people are asking for blessings from
the very being that they claim would have had the power to have averted this
whole fucking mess. I'm getting really pissed off that I'm subjected to
CONSTANT calls for "God Bless America," when if they would think about it,
their god-thing FUCKED america. When things like this that ring out loud
and clear that human beings are alone, people dive further into their
shells. It makes me sick.
--
-----
Praying in the end is just words, and we all know that action speaks louder
than words.
Respectfully yours,
tHe DiGItAl MeSSiAh
XeNO
xeno6696
"Rassleholic" <donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote in message
> We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!! This is
> not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a Christian, I
> personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or
lack
> thereof).
Ah. So you believe that the death of almost 5000 people is absolutely fine,
because it is testing the faith? Here's a question. If god had nothing to
do with it, then why is it "god's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
thereof)."?
--
-----
Praying in the end is just words, and we all know that action speaks louder
than words.
Respectfully yours,
tHe DiGItAl MeSSiAh
XeNO
Andrew J. Brehm
xeno6696
"Rassleholic" <donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote in message
> I am not just as bad. I didn't kill thousands of innocent American
> civilians. Neither did God. Pissing on other peoples' faith isn't
helping
> either. I meant when I said that God is testing us, I was referring to
> Christians. Despite what you say about God, I still believe in Him and
> always will. This does not make me a weak person. It takes a lot of
> courage to believe in something or someone for whom no proof exists,
> especially when people like you ridicule us for it. All I care about is
> that thousands of people died because evil men twisted the words of Islam
> for their own selfish reasons. This was not an act of God, it was an act
of
> men and those who would use this tragedy to ridicule people of faith are
> just sick. Before you say, "Well you're doing the same thing by this
whole
> 'God is testing us' deal" I was just stating what I believe. No matter
what
> you say, nothing can deter me from believing in God, no matter what.
This is what you're saying.
God did not fly the planes, the terrorists did.
But;
God is using this to test your (christians) faith.
So if god didn't do this, then how can he test your faith?
--
--
I live my life making the best possible choices for myself, and those around
me. If god will punish me for doing what I believe to be right, than why
would I actually wish to be with him in the first place? In the end, I'd
rather support Lucifer than Christ. (Too bad neither exsist.)
Respectfully yours,
tHe DiGItAl MeSSiAh
XeNO
Co-Founder of the:
Order of the 8th Digit
aa#1901
>
William December Starr
Steve Hix <se...@mac.com> said:
>> So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
>
> Permitting people to exercise free will.
>
> You would perhaps prefer the alternative, people as robots
> controlled externally at all times...?
If this God person couldn't figure out a way to protect his own
creations from anguish, he shouldn't have created them.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
"Rassleholic" <donts...@thisaddress.loser> said:
> We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!!
> This is not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a
> Christian, I personally think that this is God's way of testing our
> faith in him (or lack thereof).
Then it's God's fault that we're being tested (without our consent).
Look, either this God of your is responsible for all things or he
isn't. Which is it?
William December Starr
"Rassleholic" <donts...@thisaddress.loser> said:
> I am not just as bad. I didn't kill thousands of innocent American
> civilians. Neither did God. Pissing on other peoples' faith isn't
> helping either. I meant when I said that God is testing us, I was
> referring to Christians. Despite what you say about God, I still
> believe in Him and always will. This does not make me a weak
> person. It takes a lot of courage to believe in something or
> someone for whom no proof exists, especially when people like you
> ridicule us for it.
"Courage" isn't exactly the word I'd use to describe it.
[ *snip* ]
> Before you say, "Well you're doing the same thing by this whole 'God
> is testing us' deal" I was just stating what I believe. No matter
> what you say, nothing can deter me from believing in God, no matter
> what.
I believe you. Your mind is damaged.
Howard Brazee
> You read the name "Jesus" on the office door, but the guy actually
> sitting in the office doing the PR work was named Saul. God gave the
> repaint job to the lowest bidder and he figured the max profit was in
> not doing anything.
The last time God said anything in the Bible is to Job - after that, he
subcontracted the job to angels.
Cosmin Corbea
"William December Starr" <wds...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9nueat$2or$1...@panix2.panix.com...
No, no. I have it on good authority, it's the fault of the ACLU and the
feminists. See here why:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html
Regards,
Cosmin Corbea
William December Starr
"Cosmin Corbea" <cos...@canada.no_spam.pls.com.invalid> said:
> No, no. I have it on good authority, it's the fault of the ACLU and
> the feminists. See here why:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html
Ah, thank you. I'd seen the New York Times' article on that, at
<http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/national/14FALW.html>, but this one
has more to say about Robertson's agreement and endorsement of Falwell's
lunacies.
My sig quote, below, dates from February of 1999, incidentally... that
predicted day seems to officially arrived.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
"One day, that man's head is going to open up and
a prize is going to pop out."
-- Chris Pierson, on the topic of Jerry Falwell
vlj
> > No, no. I have it on good authority, it's the fault of the ACLU and
> > the feminists. See here why:
> >
> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html
>
> Ah, thank you. I'd seen the New York Times' article on that, at
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/national/14FALW.html>, but this one
> has more to say about Robertson's agreement and endorsement of Falwell's
> lunacies.
<snip>
Didn't that nutcase say the same thing about AIDS some time back? Sheeesh,
Falwell's god must think were a bunch of real bad-asses because it keeps on
coming and coming ...
Cheers,
VLJ
Casey Tompkins
<donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote:
>I am not just as bad. I didn't kill thousands of innocent American
>civilians. Neither did God. Pissing on other peoples' faith isn't helping
>either. I meant when I said that God is testing us, I was referring to
>Christians. Despite what you say about God, I still believe in Him and
Perhaps He is testing all of us; Christian, Jew, and Muslim alike.
Please recall that it really is the same God; we just disagree on how
to worship Him (and just what the message is, and how it was delivered
<grin>)...
Anyway, I wanted to reply because your phrasing reminded me of a
(reputed) exchange in Germany during WWII: after a severe bombing, and
old woman said that there was no God, since He would not have let such
a terrible thing happen.
A nearby man retorted: "Leave God out of it! Men make war, not God!".
Gully Foyle
I wonder how minor things like Pearl Harbour and WWII happened since
many of the things idiots like that are complaining about weren't
around, certainly there was plenty of prayer in schools (maybe kids
weren't praying hard enough). Are most people so thick that they don't
come out and attack morons like Robertson and Falwell in their place
for using disasters like this to peddle their region in such a
disgraceful manner? Stupid question, this type of event is a godsend
for religion peddlers of all varieties. Of course we have to ask
ourselves; is more religion really the answer?
XXIII
_________________________________________________________________
To email me remove the Z after the @ in my email address.
_________________________________________________________________
IDIOT, n.
A member of a large and powerful tribe whose
influence in human affairs has always been dominant
and controlling. The Idiot's activity is not confined to
any special field of thought or action, but "pervades
and regulates the whole." He has the last word in
everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the
fashions and opinion of taste, dictates the limitations
of speech and circumscribes conduct with a
dead-line.
Ambrose Bierce
_________________________________________________________________
Casey Tompkins
wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:00:00 GMT, "Rassleholic"
>>We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!! This is
>>not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a Christian, I
>>personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
>>thereof).
>
> Thanks. What a clear and concise post.
>
> I'll be as simple as I can.
>
> If your god knows everything and is pure love, why did he let so
>many people die such a violent death?
>
> As an atheist, any being of pure love and mercy would not use
>excruciating pain, fear and suffering to make a point.
This is such an asinine post I really HAVE to reply.
Do you have the slightest clue what "Free Will" postulates? Do you?
Because if you did, you wouldn't post such 10-grade, "I'm obviously
clueless, as well as bigoted" claptrap.
Now, for the Slow Learners: Free Will involves (gasp! what a concept),
well FREE WILL. Which in very simple terms, in very little words,
allowing each individual, however misguided or uninformed the
priveledge to make her or her own choice on any particular matter.
This includes the ability to choose to commit any sort of heinous act
imaginable.
To make it more comprehensible to the typical street-level athiest
(who, generally, is incapable of coming up with anything more
devestating than "who married Cain"? or "did Adam have a
belly-button"?): would you demand 100% complete control over your own
children't life upbringing? I'm not talking about toilet-training
babies or learning not to hit other kids; I'm talking about when they
start growing up on their own, and demand the right to make their own
choices. Do you then insist that (just because they are your
offspring) they HAVE to follow your directions to the letter? Or do
you allow them to make their own mistakes, despite the pain that you
know they'll experience, because you've already been there yourself?
So God is screwed; if He allows people to make their own choices, He
"doesn't really CARE". If He forces people to the straight & narrow,
He is a (as the saying goes) "a Jealous God". Whew. Makes you wish
you were a plumber, or something... <wry grin>
Nope, sorry, if that's the best you can come up with, then you are a
piss-poor sorry excuse of an athiest. I could come up with way better
arguements, but why should I try to help such an (self-evidently)
enlightened person?
BTW, I feel that anyone committed to true atheism is just as much a
believer as a true Christian (or Jew, Muslim, Hindu, whatever). For
you would not feel the need to truly deny, if you did not already have
a need to believe first. <g>
If anyone cares, I'm an agnostic. And I hold true to the definition
according to H. Beam Piper: "An agnostic refuses to believe, or deny,
without proof."
Fabian
"David Moisan" <dmo...@shore.net> wrote in message
news:3ba2960c....@news.shore.net...
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:00:00 GMT, "Rassleholic"
> <donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote:
>
> >We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!!
This is
> >not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists.
>
> As a Christian, I
> >personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him
(or lack
> >thereof).
I'd rather this god entity just take my word for it that I've stopped
believing in him, and that he stop killing people to test me.
--
--
Fabian
Love is when a girl puts on perfume and a boy puts on cologne and they
go out and smell each other.
Braungart
bin Ladin has more cash; falwell has a better tailor and barber.
Otherwise, there IS no difference.
Regards,
John
\^|^/
(o o)
-------------o00o-(_)-o00o-------------
Drew Stowers
Starr) wrote:
Pat and Jerry are both gulity, in the classic phrase, of running their
mouths without their brains being engaged. If anyone is interested in
both gentlemens responses to the the current controversy you can find
them here:
Pat's general statement
http://www.cbn.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID2546|CHID101024|CIID838600,00.html
Pat's actual response
http://www.cbn.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID2546|CHID101024|CIID838722,00.html
Jerry's response
http://www.falwell.com/
I've always wanted to ask both of those guys how being an American can
get me into Heaven. And if it does will I need an ID card?
Allan MAc Donald
news:WgIo7.19095$uM2.1...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
>
> "David Moisan" <dmo...@shore.net> wrote in message
> news:3ba2960c....@news.shore.net...
> > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:00:00 GMT, "Rassleholic"
> > <donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote:
> >
> > >We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!!
> This is
> > >not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists.
> >
> > As a Christian, I
> > >personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him
> (or lack
> > >thereof).
>
> I'd rather this god entity just take my word for it that I've stopped
> believing in him, and that he stop killing people to test me.
Trust me, you want the testing, cause if he aint testing hes smiting and
smiting tends to get nasty rather quickly.
Rassleholic
has a different meaning for me than it has for you but we can all agree that
it should never have happened but wishing isn't going to bring those people
back. I hope that you will agree with me that those who are responsible
should be found and punished. I have nothing more to say on this than that
whoever crossposted to the atheism newsgroups when talking about God
shouldn't have because it only made everybody angrier at a time when we
should be united and cooperative.
--
Rassle "Insert humorous comment here" holic
RassNet: http://www20.brinkster.com/rassleholic
E-Mail: rassleholic at jam dot rr dot com
ICQ : 96211106
"Therion Ware" <tw...@city-of-dis.com.eac> wrote in message
news:71n4qt4ufinmrdvnc...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:52:51 GMT, "Rassleholic"
> <donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote in alt.atheism:
>
> >Yes, I am important to Him. And no, thousands of people don't exist just
to
> >test my faith. I was reffering to Christians when I said God was testing
> >us.
>
> Oh. That's all right then....
>
> I suppose to make the deaths of others into an event important only
> for what it teaches Christians is the highest praise in your rather
> ill thought out and tawdry theology.
>
> And if it isn't, perhaps you might care to engage your brain and the
> thing that makes you human, your capacity for empathy, before you open
> your mouth again.
>
>
>
> --
> "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
> - Attrib: Pauline Reage.
> Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
> See: <http://www.Video2CD.co.uk>. 45.00 gets your video on DVD.
> There is no EAC, so delete it from the email, if you want to communicate.
Rassleholic
has a different meaning for me than it has for you but we can all agree that
it should never have happened but wishing isn't going to bring those people
back. I hope that you will agree with me that those who are responsible
should be found and punished. I have nothing more to say on this than that
whoever crossposted to the atheism newsgroups when talking about God
shouldn't have because it only made everybody angrier at a time when we
should be united and cooperative.
--
Rassle "Insert humorous comment here" holic
RassNet: http://www20.brinkster.com/rassleholic
E-Mail: rassleholic at jam dot rr dot com
ICQ : 96211106
"The Plasmatron" <plasmatron@godis*bullshit*dead.com> wrote in message
news:9nu25p$5iv$5...@coward.ks.cc.utah.edu...
> In alt.atheism Rassleholic <donts...@thisaddress.loser> wrote:
>
>
> > --
> > Rassle "Insert humorous comment here" holic
> > RassNet: http://www20.brinkster.com/rassleholic
> > E-Mail: rassleholic at jam dot rr dot com
> > ICQ : 96211106
> > "Fred Stone" <fsto...@earthling.com> wrote in message
> > news:3BA23DA7...@earthlink.net...
> >> > > > > So, where was this god of yours on Tuesday?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!!
> > This
> >> > is
> >> > > > not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a
> > Christian,
> >> > I
> >> > > > personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in
him
> > (or
> >> > lack
> >> > > > thereof).
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > If God (which I don't believe exists) has anything at all to do
with
> > 9/11,
> >> > > even if it's just "to test us" it's a murdering ravening monster,
> >> > > worthy only of contempt, not worship.
> >> > > You might as well sacrifice babies to Baal, as worship a God that
> > would
> >> > > arrange or even allow such atrocities.
> >> > > YOU are just as bad. Trying to make religious hay out of this
terrible
> >> > tragedy.
> >>
> >> > I am not just as bad. I didn't kill thousands of innocent American
> >> > civilians. Neither did God.
> >>
> >> Could It have stopped this? Then It is responsible. And so are you
> >> for worshiping such a thing.
>
> > Someone on the plane with a cell phone (there was probably at least one)
> > could have stopped it or at least warned about it. Does that make them
> > responsible?
>
> They had no clue what was going to happen. God is supposedly all
> knowing. On the only plane where they DID know what was going to happen
> all the evidence shows that they rose up, beat the attackers, and crashed
> the plane in a safe place.
>
> >> > Pissing on other peoples' faith isn't helping
> >> > either. I meant when I said that God is testing us, I was referring
to
> >> > Christians. Despite what you say about God, I still believe in Him
and
> >> > always will. This does not make me a weak person. It takes a lot of
> >> > courage to believe in something or someone for whom no proof exists,
> >> > especially when people like you ridicule us for it.
> >>
> >> It takes even more to be atheist, when the President himself says we
> >> don't deserve to be citizens.
>
> > He never said that. Anyone can say, "There is no god" when they look at
> > things like this.
>
> You are dead wrong. Bush, and his father BOTH have said quite
> specifically that "atheists should not be considered citizens". That is
> an excact quote.
> Your belifs are in the majority. There is no bravery to faith in the
> majority, and there is no moral advantage to beliving in things without
> any reason to.
>
> >> > All I care about is
> >> > that thousands of people died because evil men twisted the words of
> > Islam
> >> > for their own selfish reasons. This was not an act of God, it was an
> > act of
> >> > men and those who would use this tragedy to ridicule people of faith
are
> >> > just sick. Before you say, "Well you're doing the same thing by this
> > whole
> >> > 'God is testing us' deal" I was just stating what I believe. No
matter
> > what
> >> > you say, nothing can deter me from believing in God, no matter what.
> >>
> >> I was commenting on this belief of yours. You are, of course, welcome
> >> to beleive any damned thing you want. But when you make comments like
> >> yours in a public forum like this one, and I'm posting from
alt.atheism,
> >> I am free to respond to them.
> >>
> >> Don't you think God could have chosen a less violent way to test you?
>
> > He could have and I wish he would have, but I'm not God.
>
> If he could have, and did not, then he is at the very LEAST not all
> loving. If this was allowed as a "test" that implies that it is a
> decision he made on purpose, as if he would normally do something to stop
> this, and that makes him guilty of aiding and abbetting terrorists. If
> god exists he should be punished for this and every other atrocity he has
> given tacit approval to.
>
> --
> The Invisible Pink Unicorn made it all....
> Fluffy Orange Bunny got run over for our sins!
> -The prophet Clayton Forno
>
> The Left Reverend Plasm...@godisdead.com
> Atheist Number Fifteen Score and Seventeen
> BAAWA school of subtlety graduate
Woden
Looks to me like it already has.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
digger
I'm sorry if the belief structures of other human beings makes you feel
sick, but that doesn't make it compulsory for the believers among us to
stop voicing their opinions.
And, if you really wanted to avoid any personally demeaning replies on
this topic, you could simply have avoided making asshole remarks that
were purposefully intended to attract such responses. In case you
forget, you were the one who jumped in with the remark challenging
another's beliefs, and you did it in a way that was designed to incite
the worst sort of response. Which, in my opinion, is exactly what the
terrorists did on Tuesday. So you can count yourself in 'good' company
as far as your methodology goes.
Speaking of which, unless I am totally wrong here, it wasn't ANY deity
that "FUCKED america" (sic capitalization). It was a group of human
beings who flew those planes into their targets. And how you can blame
ANY deity, fictional or otherwise, for the perverse acts of human beings
is beyond me.
It is ignorance and hatred like yours that makes me sick.
The Plasmatron
> has a different meaning for me than it has for you but we can all agree that
> it should never have happened but wishing isn't going to bring those people
> back. I hope that you will agree with me that those who are responsible
> should be found and punished. I have nothing more to say on this than that
> whoever crossposted to the atheism newsgroups when talking about God
> shouldn't have because it only made everybody angrier at a time when we
> should be united and cooperative.
Wise words.
--
Michael Price
news:AqJo7.46$1E5....@sapphire.mtt.net...
punished? Pleasant chap.
>
>
Michael Price
free. However Gods PR men should stop claiming he will protect us.
The Mothman of Point Pleasant®
> We've got to remember that GOD WAS NOT FLYING THOSE PLANES!!!!!!! This is
> not God's fault. This is the fault of the terrorists. As a Christian, I
> personally think that this is God's way of testing our faith in him (or lack
> thereof).
So God tests us by causing the deaths of thousands of innocent people?
Sorry, I don't buy that.
--
{Mothman}
Note antispam measures in address.
Yes, bill.clinton.tc is a real domain :-)
Phil Fraering
> On 15 Sep 2001 00:02:34 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December
> >-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
> >
> > "One day, that man's head is going to open up and
> > a prize is going to pop out."
> >
> > -- Chris Pierson, on the topic of Jerry Falwell
> >
> >
>
> Pat and Jerry are both gulity, in the classic phrase, of running their
> mouths without their brains being engaged. If anyone is interested in
> both gentlemens responses to the the current controversy you can find
> them here:
I saw it earlier. Or read the net reports, at least.
Did anyone see Pat Robertson's statements of support for China's
forced abortion policy two weeks ago? I didn't see it, but I did
read about it on the net, in a couple places. He later waffled
like one of those idiot Yendi. ("How many Yendi does it take to
sharpen a sword?" "Four. One to sharpen the sword, and two to
confuse the issue").
Phil, xposting from google, since his local news is down...
p...@globalreach.net
Thinks afterwards, so is probably Dzur...
Al Klein
<nini...@yahoo.com> posted in alt.atheism:
> I disagree, it is impossible to make someone simultaineously safe and
>free.
That's putting limits on an omnipotent god.
--
Those not willing to fight for freedom don't deserve freedom.
Extremism in defense of liberty is *not* a vice.
NEVER FORGET THE WTC AND THE PENTAGON!
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net
jull43
One wishes they had hit the Statue of Liberty which is the true and
correct symbol of United States of America. That way we would not have this
posturing of the imposition of the US form of trade upon the world being
the "symbol" of us. I remember swearing an oath to the US Constitution. I
hvae no memory of swearing an oath to US mercantilism or capitalism or
anything remotely resembling either.
--
Consistancy is the bugaboo of the weak mind.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 976
Robert J. Kolker
jull43 wrote:
> hvae no memory of swearing an oath to US mercantilism or capitalism or
> anything remotely resembling either.
Were you in the military or hold a political office.
Generally citizens do not have swear any kind of oath, except
when giving testimony in court.
Bob Kolker
Mikey 5-0
My understanding was that God (or at least the jobber currently
filling his shoes) was Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omnicogniscant -
obviously, if such were true - it would KNOW how to create a universe
wherein one could be both safe and free.
However, since this isnt the case it is simple logic to deduce one of
three things: 1) God is a sadistic SOB, who created us to see us
suffer; 2) God is NOT Omni-powerful, and therefore he isnt really what
he portrays himself to be - so he's a liar; or 3) God does not exist.
Mike
Mikey 5-0
===============================================
"I get my kicks above the waistline, sunshine!"
- Murray Head, "One Night in Bangkok"
==============================================
Contact me on ICQ if you want to email me.
ICQ: 5039638
Charles R Martin
>
> However, since this isnt the case it is simple logic to deduce one of
> three things: 1) God is a sadistic SOB, who created us to see us
> suffer; 2) God is NOT Omni-powerful, and therefore he isnt really what
> he portrays himself to be - so he's a liar; or 3) God does not exist.
Or, 4) you don't have any better idea of how God does things than the
rest of us do. Remember, a transcendent God might very well have
motivations that you are incapable of understanding. (Borges wrote a
really cool 100-word story to this effect.)
Or, 5) that what appears to us to be horrible suffering and pain is as
unimportant to our _real_ selves as taking a 40 damage point hit that
kills a Dungeons and Dragons character. Certainly it is a tenet of
many religions that this world is essentially an illusion; Hinduism
even specifically refers to is as a "game" or a "play" ("lila").
Or, 6) that God really is omnipowerful, but so is Satan, and thus they
struggle back and forth over who wins the local war. I think this is
called the Nichomaean Heresy, although I kind of get my heresies mixed
up so I wouldn't want to put money on it. But this _does_ have some
Biblical support, see, eg, the Book of Job, or the part on the Fall of
Lucifer in Genesis (I think. How'd a good Buddhist boy like me end up
explaining Christian theology?)
Or, 7) that God the Creator is a somewhat clumbsy half-wit, and not
the real God at all, and basically made a mess. The Gnostics were big
on that one. Heinlein basically used the same trope in _Job_.
Or, 8) that God built the whole Universe, wound the spring, and is
sitting back watching to see what happens. This is called "Deism",
and was quite popular with the Founding Fathers.
Or, 9) that we're all pantheistically _part_ of God, and all equally
responsible for the way it all works out. This usually reduces to 4),
5), or 8) though. Heinlein used that one too, of course.
If I think about it, I can probably come up with a couple more
possibilities: this is called "The Problem of Evil", and people have
been trying to explain it for about 5000 years. That we know of.
--
Our enemies are never villains in their own eyes, but that does not make them
less dangerous. Appeasement, however, nearly always makes them more so.
-- Don Dixon
______________________________________________________________________________
Charles R (Charlie) Martin Broomfield, CO 40N 105W
Dan Seriff
> nos...@vc.curtin.edu.au (Mikey 5-0) writes:
>
>>
>> However, since this isnt the case it is simple logic to deduce one of
>> three things: 1) God is a sadistic SOB, who created us to see us
>> suffer; 2) God is NOT Omni-powerful, and therefore he isnt really what
>> he portrays himself to be - so he's a liar; or 3) God does not exist.
<snipped several far more sophisticated propositions than the three above>
> If I think about it, I can probably come up with a couple more
> possibilities: this is called "The Problem of Evil", and people have
> been trying to explain it for about 5000 years. That we know of.
And this *real* theodicy is far more interesting intellectually and fruitful
realistically than the pathetic whining of those who don't understand the
philosophical implications of their whining.
Thanks, Charles, for the refresh, I haven't studied this stuff in a while.
Daniel Seriff
micro...@sericap.com
http://members.tripod.com/microtonal
Honesty means never having to say "Please don't flush me down the toilet!"
- Bob the Dinosaur
When the ratings go up, it's like the whole world is made of donuts.
- Brak
Robert J. Kolker
Charles R Martin wrote:
>
> If I think about it, I can probably come up with a couple more
> possibilities: this is called "The Problem of Evil", and people have
> been trying to explain it for about 5000 years. That we know of.
The problem of evil is to theology and morality what the decidability
problem is to logic and mathematics.
The general case is unsoluble by any operative definition of
soluable. Evil is constant and abiding. Goodness is occassional
and sporadic. Unless our fundemental nature changes we are
stuck with it.
Bob Kolker
xeno6696
"digger" <nei...@stellarnet.com> wrote in message
news:3BA3AE...@stellarnet.com...
Just the same goes for the non-believers. And the United States is designed
so that the minority is not overpowered by the majority, and I think that
the phrase "God bless America" Should not be used, but something like "E
Pluribus Unum" which would work for ALL people, and not leave other groups
like atheists/agnostics out. God bless america excludes people who don't
practice religous faith. It makes ME feel like an outsider, not part of a
wonderful united community. Should I be forced by the majority to utter
"god bless america" when I don't believe in god?
>
> And, if you really wanted to avoid any personally demeaning replies on
> this topic, you could simply have avoided making asshole remarks that
> were purposefully intended to attract such responses. In case you
> forget, you were the one who jumped in with the remark challenging
> another's beliefs, and you did it in a way that was designed to incite
> the worst sort of response. Which, in my opinion, is exactly what the
> terrorists did on Tuesday. So you can count yourself in 'good' company
> as far as your methodology goes.
There you go again. Look, in someplace in this NG I stated I was VENTING,
and in doing so was a bit more emotional about my opinions than I usually
am. I do not, however offer any sort of apology, what's done is done. My
post was not designed to incite "THE WORST FORM OF RESPONSE." Unless you
think that allowing other atheists that are mad about what's going on to
VENT their frustrations constructively than destructively. To let other
people know that what they may be feeling is a NORMAL response to what has
happened. I don't remeber if you said you were an atheist or an agnostic,
but "God bless america" IS EXCLUDING US. Our own president says that we
should not be considered citizens of this country, which to me is like: "You
mean absolutely nothing till you reach MILITARY AGE." Then my beliefs are
still bad, but I'm enough of a citizen to be drafted into a war I didn't
want. The other fact was when they were talking about the terrorists, they
did in fact say that they for all anyone knew, american.
As an american I find that apalling that even the president would have
considered this person an american, but b/c we don't believe in god, we're
not even a citizen.
>
> Speaking of which, unless I am totally wrong here, it wasn't ANY deity
> that "FUCKED america" (sic capitalization). It was a group of human
> beings who flew those planes into their targets. And how you can blame
> ANY deity, fictional or otherwise, for the perverse acts of human beings
> is beyond me.
Yes, in reality, it was people. But the point I was trying to make, and
that you missed, was that if their god exsists, he had the power to do
something and didn't. Which is the #1 reason that "god bless america"
pisses me off now that it seems to be the national motto. They're asking
for blessings from the same being that allowed what happened on sep 11, 2001
to happen. And it happened on T.V. for millions of people to watch as their
creator allowed those planes to do what they did. So, if Their god exsists,
it did indeed FUCK america.
>
> It is ignorance and hatred like yours that makes me sick.
Well, hate is a human emotion and is a direct response to an outside
stimulus. I hate the terrorists. I also hate the state-sponsored motto of
"God Bless America." Non of my hate in this matter is irrational, so I
don't think your phrase applies, b/c I hate the same things you do, just a
couple more. If you could show me how you think my hatred is irrational,
the please, tell me. I'm not closed minded.
So how am I being ignorant? Because I don't agree? That has a label and
it's called facism. Islamic fundamentalism can be quickly and easily
compared to facism. So be very careful if you wish to group me with
terrorists, b/c if you think that b/c I don't agree with the majority in the
U.S.A. I'm being ignorant, than you are being facist, AND you belong to the
same group YOU put ME into. If you can show me how I'm being ignorant, then
tell me. I'm open for criticism.
--
-----
Praying in the end is just words, and we all know that action speaks louder
than words.
Respectfully yours,
tHe DiGItAl MeSSiAh
XeNO
Co-Founder of the:
Order of the 8th Digit
aa#1901
Remove 'god' from the header to reply.