Pirates and Templars linked by Freemasonry?
Wyvern75
Bob wrote:
> I've just done a quick read of John J. Robinson's _Born in Blood_. He
> notes that part of the liturgy of Freemasonry is a mention of Masons
> being brothers to pirates and corsairs. He relates that one lodge
> (Lodge of Amity, No. 137) in England had a report in 1813 of a pirate
> responding to a secret Masonic signal. Professor Robinson further
> relates that at the time of the mass arrest in France, Fri Oct 13,
> 1307, 18 ships of the Knights Templar escaped from La Rochelle. He
> opines that these ships, never having been found after, were then used
> in piracy.
John Robinson was never a professor. His book is based on speculation
and the quote tying Freemasonry and the Knights Templars to Piracy is
from the Alexander Dumas book " The Count of Monte Christo", now showing
on the Bravo Channel.
While Robinson tells an interesting yarn, the fact is he did a poor job
of research. The opinion of most historians is the Templar Fleet went to
assist the Portuguese, who did not participate in the French
unpleasantness.
The British and almost everybody else issued letters of Marq so civilians
could go out and raid the other sides shipping. The other side called
those people pirates.
If you think Robinson did a good job in writing a history, then you
probably had a Football coach teaching History.
>
>
> My question is with the skull and cross bones symbol (something the
> professor does not bring up).
The skull and cross bones (actually the femurs (the thigh bone) is a
symbol that has always been associated with Christianity and immortal
life. Almost all paintings of Jesus at the cross include a "skull and
crossbones" at the base of the cross, especially the Orthodox Catholics.
The Skull and Crossbones were a popular symbol on tombstones in the 16th
- 18th century. And now they are used to show danger. In Freemasonry,
the Skull and Crossbones are used to show that death is part of life.
>
>
> It might just be popular tv, popular movies, or popular fiction, but
> pirates are represented as flying a flag of the skull and cross bones,
> and that icon has been translated into one of our tidy and possibly
> universal symbols for "poison" on bottles and packages.
Actually in real life, if the Pirates showed a Skull and Crossbones they
were announcing that they were willing to negotiate a deal, X amount of
money and your ship/passengers go free. This was generally reserved for
Christians (and Catholics were generally given this option),
Indian/Persian shipping was not generally given this choice but then
there weren't as well armed and the ships were slower. Shooting a cannon
at a ship with treasure could result in sinking the ship (lose the
treasure). An opposed boarding of a ship means you lose men (but the
split is bigger, if you win). If the Pirates displayed a Red Flag it
meant no quarter, i.e. the negotiations failed.
>
>
> But the skull and cross bones has an earlier history.
>
> Crusaders, those who had fought in the Holy Wars to free Palestine,
> who died on return to Europe wished to show their status as defenders
> of the faith by being buried with their legs crossed. Since once laid
> to rest that distinction was not obvious, they had carved on their
> headstones the skull and cross bones.
>
> I am now wondering if anyone has put these coincidences together:
> That Templars as quintessential Crusaders used the symbol of the skull
> and cross bones
> That the refugees from France would (at sometime) in their pirate
> careers take up the symbol.
> That pirates into the 1800's would maintain the symbol as part of
> their Templar past.
If you are interested in reading about the Knights Templars, I would
suggest "The Murdered Magicians" by Peter Partner. There are a number of
other books out on the Military Orders of the Crusades and a trip to
Amazon.com or perhaps a good library would be in order.
>
>
>
> Avast yea mattie, Ahr Ahr, etc, Bob--
Bob
notes that part of the liturgy of Freemasonry is a mention of Masons
being brothers to pirates and corsairs. He relates that one lodge
(Lodge of Amity, No. 137) in England had a report in 1813 of a pirate
responding to a secret Masonic signal. Professor Robinson further
relates that at the time of the mass arrest in France, Fri Oct 13,
1307, 18 ships of the Knights Templar escaped from La Rochelle. He
opines that these ships, never having been found after, were then used
in piracy.
My question is with the skull and cross bones symbol (something the
professor does not bring up).
It might just be popular tv, popular movies, or popular fiction, but
pirates are represented as flying a flag of the skull and cross bones,
and that icon has been translated into one of our tidy and possibly
universal symbols for "poison" on bottles and packages.
But the skull and cross bones has an earlier history.
Crusaders, those who had fought in the Holy Wars to free Palestine,
who died on return to Europe wished to show their status as defenders
of the faith by being buried with their legs crossed. Since once laid
to rest that distinction was not obvious, they had carved on their
headstones the skull and cross bones.
I am now wondering if anyone has put these coincidences together:
That Templars as quintessential Crusaders used the symbol of the skull
and cross bones
That the refugees from France would (at sometime) in their pirate
careers take up the symbol.
That pirates into the 1800's would maintain the symbol as part of
their Templar past.
Avast yea mattie, Ahr Ahr, etc, Bob--
j Dolan
>
> If you are interested in reading about the Knights Templars, I would
> suggest "The Murdered Magicians" by Peter Partner. There are a number of
> other books out on the Military Orders of the Crusades and a trip to
> Amazon.com or perhaps a good library would be in order.
That title is out of print. Thankfully, it was picked up and is back out with a new
title: "The Knights Templar and Their Myth." Inner Traditions, Rochester, Vt., is the
current publisher. Here's the address for the book from them: (They're good people,
they're my neighbors).
http://www.destiny.com/titles/kntemy.htm
They have another book (new) about the Templars coming out perhaps this year. I'm
anxious...
jim MM
White River #90
Bethel, Vt.
Zarniwoop
Z
Bob <prea...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3772f508...@news.mindspring.com...
Eric Diamond
the historians who do cannot prove their theories either. What Robinson
presents is a theory and a scenario, based on indirect evidence. Kind of
like archaeology. He says as much up front and explains himself in further
books as to why he did not go the route of academic publishing. It had as
much to do with personal reasons as anything else.
The fact remains that there are some unanswered questions about Freemasonry
that cannot be explained by current explanations. The fact that no other
guild of the times had similar ritual practices or free and accepted members
must raise doubts as to the explanation that masonry was strictly an
outgrowth of a trade guild.
While I don't believe that Templars founded Freemasonry, nor do I believe
that Freemasons did not have an operative origin (The Grand Lodge of
Scotland has the proof of that), I find it plausible to believe that
Templars may have joined the masonic guild and exerted influence on them.
The Templars clearly were innovators in architecture, as evidenced by their
churches, many in North and east Africa cut from solid stone. is it so far a
stretch to believe that they might not have escaped and gone underground as
stonemasons?
I read Robinson with a healthy dose of skepticism, but to completely
discount his ideas as without merit because he did not follow proper
academic procedures is IMHO somewhat closed minded.
for another excellent history oif the time that doesn't cite sources, check
out "A World Lit Only By Fire," by William Manchester. Has nothing to do
with Masonry, but it's a good book, a good read and he's a pretty well
respected historian.
--
Eric Diamond, FC
Oriental No.33 AF & AM
Chicago, Illinois
Alchemist
the Skull & Crossbones.
Blackbeard (Edward Teach) used a standing full skeleton holding a lance
pointing at a heart.
--
^ ^
{~o\o~}
Alchemist
"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished." -- Wilde
Bob <uctr...@ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:37750c12...@news.shore.net...
> On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 03:26:00 GMT, prea...@mindspring.com (Bob) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >My question is with the skull and cross bones symbol (something the
> >professor does not bring up).
> <snip>
>
>
> I think you might have also missed the fact that the "skull and
> cross bones" was not "the" flag of all pirates. In general, each,
> pirate of the late 16 & 1700's had his own unique flag. The
> flag usually featured a skeleton of one sort or another but each
> was truly unique. The skull and cross bones as "the" flag of
> the pirate was an invention of literature.
>
> And what does this have to do with freemasonry ? Nothing, same as
> your original post
>
> :-)
>
> bob
>
>
Dr. Roger M. Firestone
been able to identify any language in any Masonry ritual containing the
reference to "pirates and corsairs."
My personal opinion is that any association of Freemasonry with the
actual Knights Templar is romantic fiction. I have seen _no_ evidence
of the sort historians would find convincing that anything else is the
case. The supposed Templar fleet is certainly imaginary, and the
reports of the supposed Templar force at Bannockburn were not conclusive
of the identity of any actual former Templars. Nor has any "Templar
treasure" ever been located. Yet the more preposterous the story (the
Shroud of Turin being that of Jacques DeMolay who was the 2nd advent,
etc.), the more some people seem willing to believe.
The history of the Templars is instructive in the moral sense, and
Masonry has borrowed it for that reason. But absent solid proof, we
should look elsewhere for the truth. And certainly not to "pirates and
corsairs."
Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH
St. John The Sublime Reformer
rf...@chele.cais.net (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) wrote:
> This topic was discussed elsewhere extensively. To date, no one has
> been able to identify any language in any Masonry ritual containing
the
> reference to "pirates and corsairs."
Um Doctor stop the doctoring. No one made any suggestion that there
was any reference to "pirates and corsairs" in any masonic ritual.
For those of you who are non-masons (freemasons derisively
refer to you as "cowans") there is a method of "debate" that
organized freemasonry refers to and intructs their cults membership
in, which they call "diverting a discourse".
In common parlance it is a combination of "building straw men",
"circular reasoning", "Ad Hominem attacks", what normal non
masonic cult members would call "changing the subject".
The way it is practiced by experience freemasons is a sight to behold
they also normally throw in a rather folksly, calm, and reasoned
"tone" to their "works", to make them appear that they being
reasonable and not obstructionist.
Nice try Doctor now answer the question that was asked to you.
:
>
> My personal opinion is that any association of Freemasonry with the
> actual Knights Templar is romantic fiction.
Don't tell that to the Sinclair family of Roslin, Scotland who
were granted Hereditary Grand Mastership of the Knights Templar
by King James the Stuart and who introduced Free (speculative)
Masonry into Albion.
You know this to be a FACT sir, you KNOW it, stop p*ssing about.
I have seen _no_ evidence
> of the sort historians would find convincing that anything else is the
> case.
What do you meen EXACTLY by "seen", and by "historians" Slick Willie.
> The supposed Templar fleet is certainly imaginary,
Absolute nonsense. The Templars had an extensive mercantile and
military fleet. There main naval base was Rochelle France were
they had ship building and dockyard facilities.
When the axe finally came down on the Knights Templar on Friday
October 13th, 1307 they spirited away their treasury via small
craft up the Seine from the Paris Temple to Rochelle and escaped
aboard their 18 ships to Scotland and Portugal.
Incidently the naval ensign of the Knight Templar was the Skull
and Cross Bones. The skull and crossbones figure prominently
in Freemasonry still in many parts of the world in the ritual
of a man being "made" a master mason. He is lowered into his
figurative grave "a black tapestry with skull and crossbones
on it" then "reborn" when he is "raised" as a master mason.
The skull and cross bones is still used in this ceremony in
england although american freemasons will deny it (even though
they are aware of it).
and the
> reports of the supposed Templar force at Bannockburn were not
conclusive
> of the identity of any actual former Templars.
Don't tell that to the Stuart Heir to the Scottish Throne, Prince
Michael of Albany head of the European Council of Princes and
Laurence Gardener the Chevalier Labhran de Saint Germain,
member of the Noble Household Guard of the Royal House of Stewart,
founded at St Germain-en-Laye in 1692, and the Jacobite Historiographer
Royal.
I'm certain they are both quaking at your credentials on the
matter Dr. Firestone.
By the by Captain Morgan was Freemason and his Brethern of the
Spanish Main used the templar naval ensign the skull and crossbones
in their government sponsored raiding of the Spaniards.
For his troubles Brother Captain Morgan was awared the Governorship
of Jamaica by the British Crown for his "good works".
Game, set, match.
Regards,
St. John the Sublime Reformer
Masonic Historian
Democratic Reform Advocate
>
> Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH
>
--
========================================================================
St.John The Sublime Reformer's logic is a peculiar form of morality,
veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; It is based on
his three grand principles - brotherly love, relief, and truth
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Tom Krummell
liberally with the dirt you throw, ANYTHING will grow, including the
lies and deceit about Masonry, religion, history, and life in general.
Incidently, jawn doesn't speak for Masons or Freemasonry; he speaks for
himself. Remember this when he starts throwing $3 words like "cowans"
around. After 26 years in Masonry, there is only one time I've ever
seen the word "cowan" used: when a man named Joseph Cowan was
initiated.
Sooner or later, preferably sooner, jawn will be flushed.
Tom Krummell
Roseville, CA
"St. John The Sublime Reformer" scribbled:
>
<kersnippers>
> For those of you who are non-masons (freemasons derisively
> refer to you as "cowans") there is a method of "debate" that
> organized freemasonry refers to and intructs their cults membership
> in, which they call "diverting a discourse".
>
<kersnippers of the rest>
-- A closed mouth gathers no foot.--
Ian McKiver
> Don't tell that to the Sinclair family of Roslin, Scotland who
> were granted Hereditary Grand Mastership of the Knights Templar
> by King James the Stuart and who introduced Free (speculative)
> Masonry into Albion.
>
> You know this to be a FACT sir, you KNOW it, stop p*ssing about.
The association of the Sinclairs with the Knights Templar predates the
reign of King James. The Sinclairs were made Grand Master of the
Scottish (Operative) Masons, but were also Grand Master of many other
Trades - in fact of all the hard and soft guilds in Scotland including
shipwrights, paper makers, tanners and foresters (See: "Guild Laws,
Forest Laws & the Lawis and Custumis of Ye Schippis" in the Scottish
National Library). Does this prove that leather makers are the
hereditary descendants of the KT and that "Hells Angels" preserve their
'hidden mysteries"? I for one love the romantic notion that freemasons
are somehow the off-spring of the KT, but as Dr Firestone so rightly
points out, current evidence is less than conclusive.
> Absolute nonsense. The Templars had an extensive mercantile and
> military fleet. There main naval base was Rochelle France were
> they had ship building and dockyard facilities.
>
> When the axe finally came down on the Knights Templar on Friday
> October 13th, 1307 they spirited away their treasury via small
> craft up the Seine from the Paris Temple to Rochelle and escaped
> aboard their 18 ships to Scotland and Portugal.
>
> Incidently the naval ensign of the Knight Templar was the Skull
> and Cross Bones. The skull and crossbones figure prominently
> in Freemasonry still in many parts of the world in the ritual
> of a man being "made" a master mason. He is lowered into his
> figurative grave "a black tapestry with skull and crossbones
> on it" then "reborn" when he is "raised" as a master mason.
>
> The skull and cross bones is still used in this ceremony in
> england although american freemasons will deny it (even though
> they are aware of it).
>
> and the
> > reports of the supposed Templar force at Bannockburn were not
> conclusive
> > of the identity of any actual former Templars.
The skull and cross bones (and bones in general) are a universal symbol
of mortality. They appear on the UGLE tracing board used in the 3rd
degree ceremony. I have only ever been to one (very old) lodge that had
a real set on display - they were apparently donated to the Lodge by a
deceased Brother! There are reports of disappearing Templar fleets and
treasure, but they are all unsubstantiated. I'm delighted to see you
have the correct information about the 'KT' appearing at Bannockburn.
> Don't tell that to the Stuart Heir to the Scottish Throne, Prince
> Michael of Albany head of the European Council of Princes and
> Laurence Gardener the Chevalier Labhran de Saint Germain,
> member of the Noble Household Guard of the Royal House of Stewart,
> founded at St Germain-en-Laye in 1692, and the Jacobite Historiographer
> Royal.
Yes, I was intrigued with the sudden appearance of "Prince Michael of
Albany", longing as I do for the return of "the King over the sea". We
tend to be well versed in royalty on this side of the pond and nobody
had heard of Prince Michael before Laurence Gardner's "Bloodline of the
Holy Grail". Anyway, said "Prince Michael" apparently claims descent
from the "Sobieski Stuarts", who were a pair of dubious characters who's
names changed from "Hay Allan" to "Stuart Hay" and then finally
"Sobieski Stuart" as their claim to be the grandsons of "Bonnie Prince
Charlie" gained credulity (all this in the 1820's or so). There are
many reasons to doubt their claim, but you will need to read a proper
book to find out about that.
> Game, set, match.
>
I am generous, let's say "one set all".
S&F,
Ian.
Ian J McKiver PPJGD (Hants & IoW)
ps Who's clan was causing havoc in Scotland when the Bruce's were still
in France and the Wallaces in Wales....