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New find sheds light on ancient site in Jerusalem
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Dom
Nov 24, 2011, 6:35:30 AM11/24/11
to
<<Josephus also wrote that the end of construction left 18,000 workmen
unemployed in Jerusalem. Some historians have linked this to
discontent that eventually erupted in the Jewish revolt.>>
==============
http://news.yahoo.com/sheds-light-ancient-jerusalem-092556159.html
New find sheds light on ancient site in Jerusalem
By MATTI FRIEDMAN | AP -- 14 hrs ago
JERUSALEM (AP) - Newly found coins underneath Jerusalem's Western Wall
could change the accepted belief about the construction of one of the
world's most sacred sites two millennia ago, Israeli archaeologists
said Wednesday.
The man usually credited with building the compound known to Jews as
the Temple Mount and to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary is Herod, a
Jewish ruler who died in 4 B.C. Herod's monumental compound replaced
and expanded a much older Jewish temple complex on the same site.
But archaeologists with the Israel Antiquities Authority now say
diggers have found coins underneath the massive foundation stones of
the compound's Western Wall that were stamped by a Roman proconsul 20
years after Herod's death. That indicates that Herod did not build the
wall - part of which is venerated as Judaism's holiest prayer site -
and that construction was not close to being complete when he died.
"The find changes the way we see the construction, and shows it lasted
for longer than we originally thought," said the dig's co-director,
Eli Shukron.
The four bronze coins were stamped around 17 A.D. by the Roman
official Valerius Gratus. He preceded Pontius Pilate of the New
Testament story as Rome's representative in Jerusalem, according to
Ronny Reich of Haifa University, one of the two archaeologists in
charge of the dig.
The coins were found inside a ritual bath that predated construction
of the renovated Temple Mount complex and which was filled in to
support the new walls, Reich said.
They show that construction of the Western Wall had not even begun at
the time of Herod's death. Instead, it was likely completed only
generations later by one of his descendants.
The coins confirm a contemporary account by Josephus Flavius, a Jewish
general who became a Roman historian. Writing after a Jewish revolt
against Rome and the destruction of the Temple by legionnaires in 70
A.D., he recounted that work on the Temple Mount had been completed
only by King Agrippa II, Herod's great-grandson, two decades before
the entire compound was destroyed.
Scholars have long been familiar with Josephus' account, but the find
is nonetheless important because it offers the "first clear-cut
archaeological evidence that part of the enclosure wall was not built
by Herod," said archaeologist Aren Maeir of Bar-Ilan University, who
was not involved in the dig.
Josephus also wrote that the end of construction left 18,000 workmen
unemployed in Jerusalem. Some historians have linked this to
discontent that eventually erupted in the Jewish revolt.
The compound, controlled since 1967 by Israel, now houses the Al-Aqsa
Mosque and the golden-capped Muslim shrine known as the Dome of the
Rock. The fact that the compound is holy both to Jews and Muslims
makes it one of the world's most sensitive religious sites.
The dig in which the coins were discovered cleared a Roman-era
drainage tunnel that begins at the biblical Pool of Siloam, one of the
city's original water sources, and terminates with a climb up a ladder
out onto a 2,000-year-old street inside Jerusalem's Old City. The
tunnel runs by the foundation stones of the compound's western wall,
where the coins were found.
The drainage tunnel was excavated as part of the dig at the City of
David, which is perhaps Israel's richest archaeological excavation and
its most contentious.
The dig is being carried out inside the Palestinian neighborhood of
Silwan, and is funded by a group associated with the Israeli
settlement movement that opposes any division of the city as part of a
future peace deal.
The excavation of the tunnel has also yielded a Roman sword, oil
lamps, pots and coins that scholars believe are likely debris from an
attempt by Jewish rebels to hide in the underground passage as they
fled from the Roman soldiers.
unemployed in Jerusalem. Some historians have linked this to
discontent that eventually erupted in the Jewish revolt.>>
==============
http://news.yahoo.com/sheds-light-ancient-jerusalem-092556159.html
New find sheds light on ancient site in Jerusalem
By MATTI FRIEDMAN | AP -- 14 hrs ago
JERUSALEM (AP) - Newly found coins underneath Jerusalem's Western Wall
could change the accepted belief about the construction of one of the
world's most sacred sites two millennia ago, Israeli archaeologists
said Wednesday.
The man usually credited with building the compound known to Jews as
the Temple Mount and to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary is Herod, a
Jewish ruler who died in 4 B.C. Herod's monumental compound replaced
and expanded a much older Jewish temple complex on the same site.
But archaeologists with the Israel Antiquities Authority now say
diggers have found coins underneath the massive foundation stones of
the compound's Western Wall that were stamped by a Roman proconsul 20
years after Herod's death. That indicates that Herod did not build the
wall - part of which is venerated as Judaism's holiest prayer site -
and that construction was not close to being complete when he died.
"The find changes the way we see the construction, and shows it lasted
for longer than we originally thought," said the dig's co-director,
Eli Shukron.
The four bronze coins were stamped around 17 A.D. by the Roman
official Valerius Gratus. He preceded Pontius Pilate of the New
Testament story as Rome's representative in Jerusalem, according to
Ronny Reich of Haifa University, one of the two archaeologists in
charge of the dig.
The coins were found inside a ritual bath that predated construction
of the renovated Temple Mount complex and which was filled in to
support the new walls, Reich said.
They show that construction of the Western Wall had not even begun at
the time of Herod's death. Instead, it was likely completed only
generations later by one of his descendants.
The coins confirm a contemporary account by Josephus Flavius, a Jewish
general who became a Roman historian. Writing after a Jewish revolt
against Rome and the destruction of the Temple by legionnaires in 70
A.D., he recounted that work on the Temple Mount had been completed
only by King Agrippa II, Herod's great-grandson, two decades before
the entire compound was destroyed.
Scholars have long been familiar with Josephus' account, but the find
is nonetheless important because it offers the "first clear-cut
archaeological evidence that part of the enclosure wall was not built
by Herod," said archaeologist Aren Maeir of Bar-Ilan University, who
was not involved in the dig.
Josephus also wrote that the end of construction left 18,000 workmen
unemployed in Jerusalem. Some historians have linked this to
discontent that eventually erupted in the Jewish revolt.
The compound, controlled since 1967 by Israel, now houses the Al-Aqsa
Mosque and the golden-capped Muslim shrine known as the Dome of the
Rock. The fact that the compound is holy both to Jews and Muslims
makes it one of the world's most sensitive religious sites.
The dig in which the coins were discovered cleared a Roman-era
drainage tunnel that begins at the biblical Pool of Siloam, one of the
city's original water sources, and terminates with a climb up a ladder
out onto a 2,000-year-old street inside Jerusalem's Old City. The
tunnel runs by the foundation stones of the compound's western wall,
where the coins were found.
The drainage tunnel was excavated as part of the dig at the City of
David, which is perhaps Israel's richest archaeological excavation and
its most contentious.
The dig is being carried out inside the Palestinian neighborhood of
Silwan, and is funded by a group associated with the Israeli
settlement movement that opposes any division of the city as part of a
future peace deal.
The excavation of the tunnel has also yielded a Roman sword, oil
lamps, pots and coins that scholars believe are likely debris from an
attempt by Jewish rebels to hide in the underground passage as they
fled from the Roman soldiers.
John Simms
Nov 24, 2011, 8:12:56 AM11/24/11
to
On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 03:35:30 -0800 (PST), Dom wrote:
> They show that construction of the Western Wall had not even begun at
> the time of Herod's death. Instead, it was likely completed only
> generations later by one of his descendants.
Many churches in Europe were built over several generations too.
> They show that construction of the Western Wall had not even begun at
> the time of Herod's death. Instead, it was likely completed only
> generations later by one of his descendants.
Matt Giwer
Nov 27, 2011, 6:15:39 AM11/27/11
to
On 11/24/2011 06:35 AM, Dom wrote:
> <<Josephus also wrote that the end of construction left 18,000 workmen
> unemployed in Jerusalem. Some historians have linked this to
> discontent that eventually erupted in the Jewish revolt.>>
> ==============
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/sheds-light-ancient-jerusalem-092556159.html
>
> New find sheds light on ancient site in Jerusalem
> By MATTI FRIEDMAN | AP -- 14 hrs ago
>
> JERUSALEM (AP) - Newly found coins underneath Jerusalem's Western Wall
> could change the accepted belief about the construction of one of the
> world's most sacred sites two millennia ago, Israeli archaeologists
> said Wednesday.
Is it possible that ALL physical evidence will discredit ALL religious
> <<Josephus also wrote that the end of construction left 18,000 workmen
> unemployed in Jerusalem. Some historians have linked this to
> discontent that eventually erupted in the Jewish revolt.>>
> ==============
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/sheds-light-ancient-jerusalem-092556159.html
>
> New find sheds light on ancient site in Jerusalem
> By MATTI FRIEDMAN | AP -- 14 hrs ago
>
> JERUSALEM (AP) - Newly found coins underneath Jerusalem's Western Wall
> could change the accepted belief about the construction of one of the
> world's most sacred sites two millennia ago, Israeli archaeologists
> said Wednesday.
traditions no matter how minor? Physical evidence has a perfect record so far.
--
Have you ever wondered what the bad guys in horror movies
do in their spare time?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4361
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/ a8
Sun Nov 27 06:14:11 EST 2011
Whiskers
Nov 27, 2011, 9:54:55 AM11/27/11
to
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.archaeology.]
anyone's religious traditions. All it does is lend weight to Josephus'
record that the wall was completed by Herod's great-grandson. This might
persuade tour-guides to modify their scripts, or it might not; they aren't
there to expound in detail all the known and conjectural information about
the "sites", they are there to entertain tourists.
<http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/23/uk-israel-archaeology-idUSLNE7AM01J20111123>
It's quite common for monumental structures to be attributed to the ruler
or architect who instigated the original project, regardless of how long
it took to complete. Big projects often take decades or even centuries to
complete.
And of course, it's very unlikely that any of Herod's family actually had
any real part in the actual work, or that anyone ever thought they had.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
On 2011-11-27, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> On 11/24/2011 06:35 AM, Dom wrote:
>> <<Josephus also wrote that the end of construction left 18,000 workmen
>> unemployed in Jerusalem. Some historians have linked this to
>> discontent that eventually erupted in the Jewish revolt.>>
>> ==============
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/sheds-light-ancient-jerusalem-092556159.html
>>
>> New find sheds light on ancient site in Jerusalem
>> By MATTI FRIEDMAN | AP -- 14 hrs ago
>>
>> JERUSALEM (AP) - Newly found coins underneath Jerusalem's Western Wall
>> could change the accepted belief about the construction of one of the
>> world's most sacred sites two millennia ago, Israeli archaeologists
>> said Wednesday.
>
> Is it possible that ALL physical evidence will discredit ALL
> religious traditions no matter how minor? Physical evidence has a perfect
> record so far.
In this particular instance, I don't think the find has any effect on
> On 11/24/2011 06:35 AM, Dom wrote:
>> <<Josephus also wrote that the end of construction left 18,000 workmen
>> unemployed in Jerusalem. Some historians have linked this to
>> discontent that eventually erupted in the Jewish revolt.>>
>> ==============
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/sheds-light-ancient-jerusalem-092556159.html
>>
>> New find sheds light on ancient site in Jerusalem
>> By MATTI FRIEDMAN | AP -- 14 hrs ago
>>
>> JERUSALEM (AP) - Newly found coins underneath Jerusalem's Western Wall
>> could change the accepted belief about the construction of one of the
>> world's most sacred sites two millennia ago, Israeli archaeologists
>> said Wednesday.
>
> Is it possible that ALL physical evidence will discredit ALL
> religious traditions no matter how minor? Physical evidence has a perfect
> record so far.
anyone's religious traditions. All it does is lend weight to Josephus'
record that the wall was completed by Herod's great-grandson. This might
persuade tour-guides to modify their scripts, or it might not; they aren't
there to expound in detail all the known and conjectural information about
the "sites", they are there to entertain tourists.
<http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/23/uk-israel-archaeology-idUSLNE7AM01J20111123>
It's quite common for monumental structures to be attributed to the ruler
or architect who instigated the original project, regardless of how long
it took to complete. Big projects often take decades or even centuries to
complete.
And of course, it's very unlikely that any of Herod's family actually had
any real part in the actual work, or that anyone ever thought they had.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
JTEM
Nov 27, 2011, 10:25:14 PM11/27/11
to
Unlike politics, it always pays to be extremely conservative in
these cases.
All the evidence is showing is that construction had to take place
AFTER the coins were minted. That's all. The coins do not date
the structure, they EXCLUDE any date prior.
There is a difference.
In actual fact the wall could have been built a century after the
coins. Let me put it this way:
People were no different back then. If they found coins they
picked them up. If someone said, "Hey I found a coin" then
everyone else looked for them. People back then liked free
money, just like people today. So if there were coins then there
were coins someplace where they couldn't be seen.
The context matters here. It matters a great deal. It might tell
us the circumstances under which the coins were buried:
Are they in fill? At the bottom of a well or drain? What?
As is though, all the facts are telling you is when the wall
WASN'T built, not when it was....
Eric Stevens
Nov 28, 2011, 2:41:11 AM11/28/11
to
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 00:12:56 +1100, John Simms <Tr...@honest.com>
wrote:
In this case, the wall was built over old coins.
Regards,
Eric Stevens
wrote:
Regards,
Eric Stevens
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