Three Annoying False Statements
iarwain
basic subjects that seem to come up repeatedly that tend to annoy me.
They are posted as proclomations of truth by (I suspect) inexperienced
guitarists. But while each may hide a nugget of truth within, they
are all false. They are:
1. Guitarists should never play fast
2. Guitarists who use capos are cheating and using them as a crutch
3. Do not learn music theory or you will never write anything
original
Feel free to add your own.
If you're still with me, I'll add a few comments on each.
1. Some people say guitarists who play fast are just mindlessly
playing scales, but I have yet to hear anyone complain about people
playing the same scale slowly. There is a valid point lurking here
that some guitarists can place too much emphasis on speed, but playing
fast is a legitimate part of a musician's palette.
2. It's true some inexperienced players use capos as a crutch to
change keys. But it's more true that great players use capos as a
creative tool to make great music that would not otherwise be
possible, or convenient.
3. Some people say that learning about music will kill your
creativity. But even people who choose to fumble around in the dark
usually end up finding something that makes sense musically and has
been done before, as opposed to something really novel. For instance,
have you ever met a guitar player who didn't know any scales, yet when
they went to play a solo played the notes from a pentatonic or blues
scale?
Nil
> I've noticed from reading the newsgroup here that there are three
> basic subjects that seem to come up repeatedly that tend to annoy
> me. They are posted as proclomations of truth by (I suspect)
> inexperienced guitarists. But while each may hide a nugget of
> truth within, they are all false. They are:
>
> 1. Guitarists should never play fast
> 2. Guitarists who use capos are cheating and using them as a
> crutch 3. Do not learn music theory or you will never write
> anything original
It's been months since any of these "issues" were even mentioned, and
they are thoroughly debunked every time. Are you trying to start
trouble?
jtees4
wrote:
4. Gibson is better, but overpriced than Epiphone, which is a better
value.
5. Same goes with Fender MIA and MIM respectively.
RichL
news:1183227861.5...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
1. From what I've seen in the time I've been posting here, this argument
revolves around playing *melodically*. Someone playing a lead consisting
only of going up a given scale is going to bore the crap out of me whether
it's fast or slow. I never hear this being done slowly though. Many *good*
players can play fast *and* melodically. Brian May for example. I don't
think anyone ever said "Guitarists should never play fast."
2. AFAIK only one person (Keith Adams) has ever referred to a capo as a
cheater. He's entitled to his opinion of course, but IIRC the last time
this argument broke out he was overwhelmed by opposing opinion. The degree
of usage of a capo depends on genre, of course.
3. Don't recall anyone ever saying this either. What I would say is that
theory is useful for some and not so much for others. I personally don't
believe that the majority of the "greats" in rock sit down to construct a
solo based on deciding a scale *first*. They play what fits with chords,
melody etc., and they know what fits intuitively. To call this "fumbling
around in the dark" is ridiculous. For rock guitar, theory is useful IMO
for understanding the overall structures of solos etc, and I know it well
from my piano days, but it's overdone in some discussions.
So in my view you've just put up three strawmen that severely oversimplify
discussions that have actually taken place on these matters. Overall, I'm
with Nil on this.
jthread
"iarwain" <iarw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183227861.5...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
4. Girls with tattoos are sexy
Keith Adams
When someone is walking on the edge with their statements then the omission
of a single word in that statement can alter how it will be interpreted.
Twist em how you want.
"iarwain" <iarw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183227861.5...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
SotR
SotR
Geetar Dave
Then I must suck.
Alas.
Henceforth I'll aspire to be average.
Yay. Clumsy and limited. Here goes...
-dave-----:::
www.myspace.com/geetardave
Derek
Maybe not full speed 100% of the time. Capos are a tool, like
anything else at our disposal.
People who take up guitar can decide whether they want to become
muscians, or just guitar players. Often, we make small decisions
along the way throughout our musical process. Check this month's
issue of GP for Satch's theoretical explainations of what was going on
with some of "Surfing With The Alien".
Music theory is a very deep subject. The good news is, you can learn
just enough to enjoy playing a few tunes, or you can devote a lifetime
to it, and still not discover it all.
Wereo_SUPREME
news:1183227861.5...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
LenBum
Guitarists should never play fast
Why not? I will say this. Nothing turns me off quicker then some shredder
who's using a ton of gain playing as many notes as he/she can for more than
10 seconds.
Guitarists who use capos are cheating and using them as a crutch
I'm not sure I understand this. Cheating as in putting the capo on so you
lower the action to play lead faster? I don't see many players do this
anyway so I'll just assume I don't understand.
Do not learn music theory or you will never write anything
original
I look at it this way.........either you have creativity or you don't.
"iarwain" <iarw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183227861.5...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
nm...@wt.net
>
> People who take up guitar can decide whether they want to become
> muscians, or just guitar players. Often, we make small decisions
> along the way throughout our musical process. Check this month's
> issue of GP for Satch's theoretical explainations of what was going on
> with some of "Surfing With The Alien".
You can watch him doing likewise live and in living color rights
shere..
Four files...
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+satriani-surfing+with+the+aliens+lessons&search=
And satch boogie.. http://youtube.com/watch?v=F5kfdE3it5E&mode=related&search=
And another from another guy... Pretty detailed, and slow... 5 files
total..
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+satriani-satch+boogie+lessons&search=
He also has lessons for modes, etc... There is lots of lesson stuff on
U-tube..
Not to mention concert footage like say this.. http://youtube.com/watch?v=e_xyyLWrnbo
That's a pretty cool song.. Seems to have some "soul" to me, and no
one sings a word..
MK
Wereo_SUPREME
news:80zhi.5150$vi5....@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net...
> 5.) nothing matters but wereo_Supreme
>
> SotR
>
who matters now.
Wereo_SUPREME
news:1183242113.9...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Lewis
Hey Dave... kinda off topic, but I took a listen to your stuff, and
wow... very cool. I was especially fond of Superman Falls. You sound
kinda like Jackson Browne, and the songs have a real XTC vibe to
them... I don't mean to imply that the songs are derivative in any
way; just sort of a great, clean, pop sound with simple but clever
lyrics. For all the crappin' around I do with cross genre-izing
(yep... new word, I made it up) I'm essentially still a sucker for
killer pop songs with great hooks, and you got 'em my friend. Great
work. Neither clumsy nor limited in any way.
Thanks for the most pleasant listening experience,
Lewis
Keith Adams
did. Totaly out of context.
"Nil" <rednoi...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns995F9510...@216.196.97.136...
Keith Adams
in my family called them". If not for them old cats I would have never heard
of the term. They were all born anywhere from 1885 to around 1910. I think
that everyone called them a cheater from that era. They called them that in
a deragatory way but so what?
I say thank God for em. The last dude I played music with would have been
restricted to 2 keys if not for a cheater.
"RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Odadna0twL3ENBvb...@comcast.com...
iarwain
discussions that have actually taken place on these matters
***************
I know this is Usenet but frankly I don't understand where the
hostility comes from in this thread (not necessarily talking about you
here). I don't see where anything I said qualifies as being
controversial. True, I made general statements in the interest of
brevity, perhaps I could have worded them better. Instead of
"guitarists should never play fast" I could have substituted
"shredding is boring" or "fast guitar solos are boring". I believe I
even went out of my way to say that each point (which I disagree with)
has its own nugget of truth and valid point to make, so how am I here
to cause trouble?
The speed issue seems to be the touchiest, for whatever reason. A lot
of people have talked about playing melodically, whether fast or
slow. However, those are not the people I am talking about. If
you've read these threads, you know a lot of posters have simply made
statements saying "shredders suck" or "fast guitar players are only
being athletic, not musical". This is what I am referring to.
If someone is mainly interested in playing old style blues for
instance that is great, and they probably don't need much speed. But
I am unwilling to dismiss other musicians' efforts on their
instruments just because it may not be my cup of tea. I respect Joe
Satriani as a musician for example, even though I don't have any
interest in playing like him. It's obvious that he's put in a lot of
practice in order to improve his technique and play his instrument
proficiently, and I don't see how that's a bad thing.
Okay, using a lot of technique isn't for everybody, depending on what
kind of music they are trying to perform. But I don't think someone
should put down another player for wanting to improve their technique
just because they're not interested in it.
iarwain
********************
I don't believe I called that fumbling around in the dark. I probably
did the worst job of explaining that one. Some people are afraid of
learning more about music because then they think they will lose their
own voice. I have a friend like this, he writes songs, and he does a
good job. He has a certain musical vocabulary that he uses, and he
doesn't want to know how intervals, chords, and scales work together
because he thinks if he does he will sound like everybody else.
I have no problem with this. If it works for him (and it does),
great. The problem I have is when someone who uses this approach
comes out and tries to tell others that if they learn music theory
they will kill their creativity. I like what LenBum says: "either
you have creativity or you don't". It's not necessarily chained to
how much technical knowledge you have. If you are creative, and you
are interested in obtaining a deeper understanding of how music works,
I don't think it will hurt you, and it may very well even help you.
markd
wrote:
>I've noticed from reading the newsgroup here that there are three
>basic subjects that seem to come up repeatedly that tend to annoy me.
>They are posted as proclomations of truth by (I suspect) inexperienced
>guitarists. But while each may hide a nugget of truth within, they
>are all false. They are:
>
>1. Guitarists should never play fast
>2. Guitarists who use capos are cheating and using them as a crutch
>3. Do not learn music theory or you will never write anything
>original
4. Nuclear Warrior theme song rules.
The Repair Guy
>I say thank God for em. The last dude I played
>music with would have been restricted to 2 keys
>if not for a cheater.
And that's why they're called cheaters, right there.
The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com
Twang
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:24:21 -0700, iarwain <iarwai...@hotmail.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
6. people play gibsons because they are easier than fenders.
TWANG
Derek
>I don't believe I called that fumbling around in the dark. I probably
>did the worst job of explaining that one. Some people are afraid of
>learning more about music because then they think they will lose their
>own voice. I have a friend like this, he writes songs, and he does a
>good job. He has a certain musical vocabulary that he uses, and he
>doesn't want to know how intervals, chords, and scales work together
>because he thinks if he does he will sound like everybody else.
>I have no problem with this. If it works for him (and it does),
>great. The problem I have is when someone who uses this approach
>comes out and tries to tell others that if they learn music theory
>they will kill their creativity. I like what LenBum says: "either
>you have creativity or you don't". It's not necessarily chained to
>how much technical knowledge you have. If you are creative, and you
>are interested in obtaining a deeper understanding of how music works,
>I don't think it will hurt you, and it may very well even help you.
I find this sort of argument inane, and typically an excuse to be
lazy. To think that studying a subject will "kill your creativity" is
absolute nonsense. Artists from the Beatles to Bach understood music
theory to varying degrees, and could explain what they were doing
quite well.
Why wouldn't you want to know how something you love works? There are
way more examples of musicians who know music than those who don't.
There is nothing wrong with pursuing music from a standpoint of
theoretical ignorance, there have been plenty who are/have been
successful. Why limit yourself though?
Don Evans
No, you missed the point ... this stuff is supposed to be *un*true.
;-)
Don
Don Evans
I guess there's nothing holding you here then.
Don Evans
To me, it's very simple, really. If you can't play fast, then there are
some things you just can't play. How that can be a plus, I really don't
know. I'm far from my idea of a fast player, but that doesn't mean I don't
work at it. I will probably never want to play in shredder mode, but that
is not all you can do with speed. Plus, if you can play well fast, you can
probably play slowly better ... cleaner, and with more control ... than if
you could not.
Don
Daniel Dreibelbis
"SotR" <fli...@ssm.com> wrote:
> 5.) nothing matters but wereo_Supreme
5a) the above is only true according to the sparkly elves living
inside NoWereo's cranium. Not in our universe, where the sky is blue
rather than plaid :)
--
Dan Dreibelbis, Guitar Nerd - Better Living Through Home Recording
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=121942
Current Song - "Soaring"
NEW! YouTube vid: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r2xmYXf6mo
White Spirit
> 5.) nothing matters but wereo_Supreme
Scott should run for president. His campaign slogan could be 'One
Nation Under the Wereo'. It would work as well. With everyone
assimilated into the New Intellect, there would be no more divisions, no
more class distinction, no more race riots, and an end to the rock and
roll swindle.
White Spirit
> The speed issue seems to be the touchiest, for whatever reason. A lot
> of people have talked about playing melodically, whether fast or
> slow. However, those are not the people I am talking about. If
> you've read these threads, you know a lot of posters have simply made
> statements saying "shredders suck" or "fast guitar players are only
> being athletic, not musical". This is what I am referring to.
The problem, as I see it, is that some people play fast thinking it's
the mark of a good player and thus neglect other aspects of their
playing. Compared to contemporary bands at the time, Iron Maiden were
quite fast but the guitar solos were always fluid, harmonically pleasing
and played with feeling (Dave Murray) or they made use of contra tempo,
sudden changes of rhythm and interesting, unpredictable note choices
(Adrian Smith). Even a relatively (or seemingly) simple passage from
one of their solos is more interesting than someone like Yngwie
Malmsteen playing arpeggios at break-neck speed.
iarwain
I never could get into Yngwie either. Of course, there are probably
only a handful or two of guitarists that really inspire me so there
could be a lot of reasons. The main thing with Malmsteen is I didn't
think the songs were very good, thus I didn't really care about the
playing. I don't doubt he would blow me off the stage if the
opportunity arose, but I never found his playing that clean either.
I like classical music so that's not the problem. He just doesn't
grab me. I won't say he sucks (although I've heard a lot of people
say it), just not my cup of tea.
Grinner
"iarwain" <iarw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183227861.5...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> I've noticed from reading the newsgroup here that there are three
> basic subjects that seem to come up repeatedly that tend to annoy me.
> They are posted as proclomations of truth by (I suspect) inexperienced
> guitarists. But while each may hide a nugget of truth within, they
> are all false. They are:
>
> 1. Guitarists should never play fast
bwahaha
> 2. Guitarists who use capos are cheating and using them as a crutch
ridiculous, like saying should never use alternate tunings.
> 3. Do not learn music theory or you will never write anything
> original
>
bwahaha it's nice to hear something with a lot of flavours to it and
recognise the intervals.
> Feel free to add your own.
>
> If you're still with me, I'll add a few comments on each.
> 1. Some people say guitarists who play fast are just mindlessly
> playing scales, but I have yet to hear anyone complain about people
> playing the same scale slowly. There is a valid point lurking here
> that some guitarists can place too much emphasis on speed, but playing
> fast is a legitimate part of a musician's palette.
Nice word, palette, wouldn't call it that exactly if I relted it to visual
art, more like "brush stroke". I'd relate knowledge of theory modes
arpeggios etc to pallette. palletes are layed out beforehand when you plan
to paint a picture, so too the song's key signature, timning. what you do
with your brush, thin strokes broad strkes relates more to speed.
>
> 2. It's true some inexperienced players use capos as a crutch to
> change keys. But it's more true that great players use capos as a
> creative tool to make great music that would not otherwise be
> possible, or convenient.
good enough for Ian Anderson. like using a dahl stick to rest your arm on
while painting perhaps?
>
> 3. Some people say that learning about music will kill your
> creativity. But even people who choose to fumble around in the dark
> usually end up finding something that makes sense musically and has
> been done before, as opposed to something really novel. For instance,
> have you ever met a guitar player who didn't know any scales, yet when
> they went to play a solo played the notes from a pentatonic or blues
> scale?
>
Probably because music is not a pattern to them but the intervals which fit
the scale, that they audibly discern and know where to put their fingers
from expereince, not structured learning. Learning patterns per se does
nothing unless you know what you are doing with each interval and how it
relates to the key signature you are playing in, what it harmonises with and
why it adds it's particular flavour. otherwise you'll just be hitting notes
in the pattern which will be hit and miss with the chord progressions or
melody. it's not exactly music knowing the visuals when the audibles are all
hit and miss.
blindly knowing patterns is like painting by numbers, you never get to know
how to match colour tones. bright in one spot, dull in others clash, clash,
clash,'til it all looks like a ten year old's attempt, and is recognisable
instantly as bad fucking art.
jtees4
Of which you are a part.
iarwain
*******************
I wouldn't go so far as to say that guitarists, especially in the rock
genre, HAVE to study music theory. Certainly there have been a lot of
successful players who haven't. What they end up doing though, is
picking up enough of it, to play and write well, even if they don't
precisely know what's going on in depth. They just know it works.
Guitarists learn mostly from other players. Anyone who has played an
open C chord is reaping the benefit of SOMEONE's understanding of
music theory. The Beatles, for instance, I don't believe they studied
music theory, and they were able to accomplish incredible things.
They knew a lot of chords though, and kept their eyes and ears open to
what was going on around them. They tried to grow, and advance. John
Lennon learned Travis picking from Donovan at one point, for
instance. Paul McCartney took piano lessons.
So while I don't think studying music theory is a MUST for rock
guitarists, I would certainly never suggest that it would hurt, and
would most likely be quite beneficial. If someone wanted my advice I
would recommend it. Learn as much as you can, knowledge won't hurt
you. One good reason for learning the technical side of things is
that it helps you communicate with other musicians. I would think
most people interested in music would be curious about such things and
try to grow.
Grinner
each to their own, whatever works, as long as it 'works' and isn't an
attrocious mess.
Larry
doesn't have much speed or 'techniquie'.
He sure as hell makes up for it. I'll take his guitar over some
over-educated scale mastery any day :)
-Larry
"Grinner" <Gri...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:468d3610$0$97223$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
Guncho
> I've noticed from reading the newsgroup here that there are three
> basic subjects that seem to come up repeatedly that tend to annoy me.
> They are posted as proclomations of truth by (I suspect) inexperienced
> guitarists. But while each may hide a nugget of truth within, they
> are all false. They are:
>
> 1. Guitarists should never play fast
No one has ever said that. I think the consensus was more, guitarists
who only play fast, don't play with much emotion and are pretty boring
to listen to.
> 2. Guitarists who use capos are cheating and using them as a crutch
Keith's the only person who ever said that and he doesn't even play
guitar.
> 3. Do not learn music theory or you will never write anything
> original
Once again, no one has ever said that, but if all you do is learn
music theory then yes, you will probably never write anything.
Chris
Guncho
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:24:21 -0700, iarwain <iarwai...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >I've noticed from reading the newsgroup here that there are three
> >basic subjects that seem to come up repeatedly that tend to annoy me.
> >They are posted as proclomations of truth by (I suspect) inexperienced
> >guitarists. But while each may hide a nugget of truth within, they
> >are all false. They are:
>
> >1. Guitarists should never play fast
> >original
>
>
> >If you're still with me, I'll add a few comments on each.
> >1. Some people say guitarists who play fast are just mindlessly
> >playing scales, but I have yet to hear anyone complain about people
> >playing the same scale slowly. There is a valid point lurking here
> >that some guitarists can place too much emphasis on speed, but playing
> >fast is a legitimate part of a musician's palette.
>
> >2. It's true some inexperienced players use capos as a crutch to
> >change keys. But it's more true that great players use capos as a
> >creative tool to make great music that would not otherwise be
> >possible, or convenient.
>
> >3. Some people say that learning about music will kill your
> >creativity. But even people who choose to fumble around in the dark
> >usually end up finding something that makes sense musically and has
> >been done before, as opposed to something really novel. For instance,
> >have you ever met a guitar player who didn't know any scales, yet when
> >they went to play a solo played the notes from a pentatonic or blues
> >scale?
>
> value.
> 5. Same goes with Fender MIA and MIM respectively.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
You think those statements are false?
Chris
Guncho
>
> - Show quoted text -
There's nothing wrong with learning theory but if that's all you
generally do, it will kill your creativity.
In high school I got to grade 13 on sax, I could sight read pretty
much anything you put in front of me. Take away the sheet music and I
couldn't play shit.
Learned guitar by ear can know play pretty much whatever I hear in my
head.
Chris
Guncho
> Everyone enjoys some speed thrown in at times to change dynamics.
> Maybe not full speed 100% of the time. Capos are a tool, like
> anything else at our disposal.
>
> People who take up guitar can decide whether they want to become
> muscians, or just guitar players. Often, we make small decisions
> along the way throughout our musical process. Check this month's
> issue of GP for Satch's theoretical explainations of what was going on
> with some of "Surfing With The Alien".
>
> Music theory is a very deep subject. The good news is, you can learn
> just enough to enjoy playing a few tunes, or you can devote a lifetime
> to it, and still not discover it all.
Derek
There's always this recurring theme in your posts that basically
implies that anyone who doesn't learn tonnes of theory will only be
able to play a few basic songs. What you fail to realize is, that
it's not what you play, it's how you play it that matters.
Chris
nm...@wt.net
>
> > 3. Do not learn music theory or you will never write anything
> > original
>
> Once again, no one has ever said that, but if all you do is learn
> music theory then yes, you will probably never write anything.
>
> Chris
Thats silly. What effect would theory have on writing?
All it will effect is the writing might be a bit more "proper"
as far as structure, etc.. But learning theory is not going
to make you go brain dead as far as imagination.
If anything, it will probably be the other way around once
it's absorbed.
MK
Guncho
The general consensus around here I would say would that as long as
you are creative and melodic, it doesn't matter if you play fast of
slow. That being said a lot of "shredders" aren't creative or
melodic.
Chris
Guncho
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't know about that. I find that players who like to play fast
have similar mentalities as drivers with suped up cars who like to
drive fast. They don't like to drive slow.
Chris
Guncho
> "iarwain" <iarwai...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
So you're saying that music has to be complex to be good? No three
chord campfire songs for you?
I play by patterns that I have learnt through trial and error and I
know these patterns so well at this point, that I can't play what I
hear in my head in real time. Who cares if I don't know what scale or
mode I'm playing?
Chris
nm...@wt.net
That being said a lot of "shredders" aren't creative or
> melodic.
>
> Chris
Then again, a lot are.. But I don't like the word "shredder"..
I think it's stupid and should be applied to veggies only.
If you have a musician in an orchestra, and he plays some
fast lines, people don't say it's shredding..
Shredding is a term conjured up by people that hang
out in geetar centers every Sat morning.. :/
The tempo of the song means nada to me as far as if it's
melodic, interesting, etc.. Some fast tempo songs suck.
Some don't.. Some slow tempo songs suck. Some don't.
You could wrestle with that dilemma till the cows come
home.
MK
The Repair Guy
>it's not what you play, it's how you play it that matters.
<swoooosh!> Another sweeping generalization.
You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
Andy
> Guncho <cgu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> it's not what you play, it's how you play it that matters.
>
> <swoooosh!> Another sweeping generalization.
> You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
> expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
> and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
Derek
>There's always this recurring theme in your posts that basically
>implies that anyone who doesn't learn tonnes of theory will only be
>able to play a few basic songs. What you fail to realize is, that
>it's not what you play, it's how you play it that matters.
Not at all. Never said any thing about "tons of theory", or only
being able to play basic songs without it. Here's what I wrote:
>> Music theory is a very deep subject. The good news is, you can learn
>> just enough to enjoy playing a few tunes, or you can devote a lifetime
>> to it, and still not discover it all.
What I implied is there is a continuum. You can chose to just learn
enough to play a few tunes, or you can learn more and play more
complex stuff like say, Dream Theatre. Head knowledge and technique
on the instrument are two different things.
So, you are correct when you say, "It is not what you play, it's how
you play it". Personally, I am interested in and persue both.
JoeT
"Andy" <nos...@no.no> wrote in message
news:468d7f7c$0$12836$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Damnit Andy you owe me a cup of coffee! Incidentally coffee doesn't feel at
all good travelling through the sinuses and out the nose...
That's the best job of sounding horrendous for an overdub I've ever heard.
The Repair Guy
>The Repair Guy wrote:
>> You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
>> expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
>> and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
>
>http://youtube.com/watch?v=VCj3l0fIdMI
I saw that awhile ago. Still great, and I notice
more subtle nuances every time I watch it.
There's something about the raw emotion
in the playing, the angst - those notes are all
on my guitar, but try as I might, I can't make
them sound like that.
And on vocals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw8sNoodIDk
Andy
Indeed. Ya just can't beat the facial expressions between 1:15 - 1:20
either :-D
Andy.
The Repair Guy
>Damnit Andy you owe me a cup of coffee! Incidentally
>coffee doesn't feel at all good travelling through the
>sinuses and out the nose...
Aren't you supposed to drink it?
Andy
> Andy <nos...@no.no> wrote:
>
>> The Repair Guy wrote:
>
>>> You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
>>> expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
>>> and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
>> http://youtube.com/watch?v=VCj3l0fIdMI
>
> I saw that awhile ago. Still great, and I notice
> more subtle nuances every time I watch it.
> There's something about the raw emotion
> in the playing, the angst - those notes are all
> on my guitar, but try as I might, I can't make
> them sound like that.
Yup. 'It's all in the fingers' bro.
> And on vocals:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw8sNoodIDk
Wow. The crowd were really getting into it (understandably). Must've
been due to the warm and organic sounding keyboards, or something.
Guncho's band?
Andy.
The Repair Guy
>The Repair Guy wrote:
>>> http://youtube.com/watch?v=VCj3l0fIdMI
>>
>> I saw that awhile ago. Still great, and I notice
>> more subtle nuances every time I watch it.
>> There's something about the raw emotion
>> in the playing, the angst - those notes are all
>> on my guitar, but try as I might, I can't make
>> them sound like that.
>
>Yup. 'It's all in the fingers' bro.
Fingers? I've been playing with 3/8" dowels
with cork pads on the ends. I can play up to
two notes at a time.
>> And on vocals:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw8sNoodIDk
>
>Wow. The crowd were really getting into it
>(understandably). Must've been due to the
>warm and organic sounding keyboards, or
>something.
Actually, I thought the keyboards were the
least offensive part :-)
>Guncho's band?
That was cruel.
JoeT
"The Repair Guy" <repair...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kn9r83hurflbc29a0...@4ax.com...
> "JoeT" <glitc...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Damnit Andy you owe me a cup of coffee! Incidentally
>>coffee doesn't feel at all good travelling through the
>>sinuses and out the nose...
>
> Aren't you supposed to drink it?
>
> The Repair Guy
Yes but not while watching things that cause convulsive laughter. At first
you think, just another silly overdub but it quickly draws you with the
detail at which the bad playing syncs up with what you see Vai doing. It
actually made me laugh out loud.
RichL
OUCH!!!!
It wasn't so horrible until the guy opened his mouth.
But then...
Oh damn I can't even find the words to describe how awful that was.
The Repair Guy
>"The Repair Guy" wrote...
>> And on vocals:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw8sNoodIDk
>
>OUCH!!!!
>It wasn't so horrible until the guy opened his mouth.
>But then...
>Oh damn I can't even find the words to describe
>how awful that was.
I watched it more than once, trying to see if it was
a big joke. I don't think so...
Don Evans
Guncho wrote:
> On Jun 30, 2:24 pm, iarwain <iarwai...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I've noticed from reading the newsgroup here that there are three
>> basic subjects that seem to come up repeatedly that tend to annoy me.
>> They are posted as proclomations of truth by (I suspect)
>> inexperienced guitarists. But while each may hide a nugget of truth
>> within, they are all false. They are:
>>
>> 1. Guitarists should never play fast
>
> No one has ever said that. I think the consensus was more, guitarists
> who only play fast, don't play with much emotion and are pretty boring
> to listen to.
>
>> 2. Guitarists who use capos are cheating and using them as a crutch
>
> Keith's the only person who ever said that and he doesn't even play
> guitar.
OK ... once and for all ... lots of guys used to call them "cheaters". It
was just slang. They didn't necessarily mean the players were cheating,
just that they were a way around a technical challenge. Keith is far from
the only guy to have called them that. I'm sure that neither he nor most
others (with any real knowlege of guitar) really feel that using a "cheater"
really diminishes the stature or skill of the player, they are just a
solution to a problem.
Man I'm sick of that one.
Don
Don Evans
That's not what I said. Some guys like speed as a way to show off. Some
guys just want it as part of what they do. Would you really rather ride
with a guy who wasn't good enough to drive fast?
Don
iarwain
*************
And people who like to drive slow don't like to drive fast. I know
which one I'd rather get stuck driving behind on the road.
Seriously, though, I don't agree with the premise. Lots of guys who
can play fast will play slow. Look at Page's solo in D'yer M'ker for
instance. Clapton's in Sunshine of Your Love (although I would never
label Clapton or Page as shredders they can both play fast when they
want to). On the other hand, if you can only play slow, you can only
play slow.
Twang
> > Learning patterns per se does nothing unless you know what you are doing with each interval and how it relates to the key signature you are playing in, what it harmonises with and why it adds it's particular flavour.
>
>
> I wouldn't go so far as to say that guitarists, especially in the rock
> genre, HAVE to study music theory. Certainly there have been a lot of
> successful players who haven't. What they end up doing though, is
> picking up enough of it, to play and write well, even if they don't
> precisely know what's going on in depth. They just know it works.
>
> Guitarists learn mostly from other players. Anyone who has played an
> open C chord is reaping the benefit of SOMEONE's understanding of
> music theory. The Beatles, for instance, I don't believe they studied
> music theory, and they were able to accomplish incredible things.
> They knew a lot of chords though, and kept their eyes and ears open to
> what was going on around them. They tried to grow, and advance. John
> Lennon learned Travis picking from Donovan at one point, for
> instance. Paul McCartney took piano lessons.
>
> So while I don't think studying music theory is a MUST for rock
> guitarists, I would certainly never suggest that it would hurt, and
> would most likely be quite beneficial. If someone wanted my advice I
> would recommend it. Learn as much as you can, knowledge won't hurt
> you. One good reason for learning the technical side of things is
> that it helps you communicate with other musicians. I would think
> most people interested in music would be curious about such things and
> try to grow.
there's nothing wrong with any knowledge, it's what you do with it..
and that means who you are.
there are great advantages to learning theory, and great advantages to
developing speed or any other attribute
or aspect of music.
No doubt about it.
I know guys who don't read I like to hear play. They play fine.
Ask them forty nine questions about theory, they can't answer.. and
mr. dumbass walks away saying they don't know what they are doing.
that's absurd.
I doubt very much that robert johnson could sit down with a composer
and talk theory.
I doubt very much that mr. composer would be able to do what johnson
did.
Even if he copied robert, it would take a great deal of time to
master.
so what do you say to an unschooled musician who practically invents
technique.. though it's known somewhere else?
What does one say to elizabeth cotton... bad songs? her fingerpicking
sucks because she figured it out by sneaking her brothers guitar from
under the bed when he was gone?
for me a lot of this has to do with the listener and his attitude, as
well as the schooled musician and his.
when I was a kid we had a battle of the bands.. at the end.. we won
*S*.. they had two guitarists.. older guys..
one jazz one rock.
the jazz guy played wonderfully.. no doubt about it.
the rock guy played a rock instrumental. Memphis--lonnie mack.
I thought he was better.
the tune was more exciting.. what did I care about technicaly
proficiency at some 'higher level'.. and there you go.
jazz guys still often tend to disregard other kinds of music as
lesser. like blues. as if it's rudimentary so it's not
great.
buddy rich on country or blues or rock.. he knocks them completely.
everyone in the world is making a huge mistake because they don't buy
his records which are obviously superior because he likes jazz so much
himself, and being educated he must be right.
I dont' have any of his records.
the part that sucks for me isn't learning, or knowing.. it's not even
the doing.. it's the problem you have with the ego of the person who
somehow can't quit congratulating himself on his own taste or
intentions.
I can take about fifteen minutes of bebop. so did the world.
great stuff? yep. great players? yep.
just not my music. nothing wrong with that. but a bebop player will
tell you you arent' smart enough to listen.
you don't know enough to appreciate.
It's easy to pick a person out at the mall and rag on them for their
musical taste.. it's another thing to say a country picker is a toad
because he plays music that is often simpler than miles davis.
and it's damn hard to drag that anonymous fan into a bebop concert or
a classical concert, too.
I like music with just chords and a lyric. I can listen to a guy
playing nice tunes, in a simple manner, for a long time compared to
how a jazzer, just for one example.
and it's a myth too, that all good music is chock full of technique,
etc.
five million notes will NOT give you a better piece unless there is a
true musical quality to the note choices.
and if the listener is not sophisticated enough to appreciate what's
being played that doesn't lessen or devalue his taste.
taste aint like that.
TWANG
iarwain
*********
If anyone thinks Gilmour doesn't use scales, they're kidding
themselves. I have also read an interview with Gilmour where he said
he couldn't play very fast - actually he said he couldn't pick very
fast, so he did a lot of hammer ons and pulloffs to make up for it and
make it sound faster. I don't remember him saying he didn't have any
technique though.
Twang, I agreed with most of what you said, except I don't feel quite
so willing to minimize the jazz guys. It's never been a genre I've
been particularly taken with, but obviously some people prefer it.
Hey, you never know, ten years from now we may evolve into being jazz
crazy (doubt it, but you never know). I definitely respect what they
do anyway.
As for theory, I really do think that a lot of famous rock players
know more than they're telling. There's a phenomenon where they seem
to try to hide what they know, as if it's more impressive if their
music just happens in some mythological way. For instance, I remember
reading an interview with Ted Nugent where he denied knowing any
scales. Now, anyone who has ever seen him play knows this isn't true,
he loves his pentatonics. I've read a few other guitar players make
similar dubious claims. Most of these were old school guys. It may
be they are like magicians trying to hide their secrets, but the cat
is out of the bag.
Derek
>jazz guys still often tend to disregard other kinds of music as
>lesser. like blues. as if it's rudimentary so it's not great.
Sounds to me you are talking to the wrong jazz guys. I am a jazz guy,
and like all kinds of music. Blues can be as simple as a I IV V
progression, or a more complicated jazz version.
>I can take about fifteen minutes of bebop. so did the world.
>great stuff? yep. great players? yep.
>just not my music. nothing wrong with that. but a bebop player will
>tell you you arent' smart enough to listen.
>you don't know enough to appreciate.
Bebop still sells. However, it killed jazz as a popular style. When
you stopped being able to dance to it, it stopped being popular music.
As far as not being smart enough, that sounds pretty arrogant. Again,
I think you are talking to the wrong guys.
Jazz in general demands more of the listener since it is more complex
than most pop or rock music. However, lots of nonmusicians appreciate
and listen to jazz. The reality is, it is a very small (3%) of the
total sold, and isn't for everyone.
The Repair Guy
> The Repair Guy wrote:
>>>Yup. 'It's all in the fingers' bro.
>>
>>Fingers? I've been playing with 3/8" dowels
>>with cork pads on the ends. I can play up to
>>two notes at a time.
>
>you should go on Americas Got Talent.
I auditioned a while ago, but got beaten out by
a 9-year-old girl who played "America the
Beautiful" by armpit-farting. She deserved to
win, too. When she was done, there wasn't a
dry eye in the place.
Grinner
"Guncho" <cgu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183671596.4...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
No. Where have I said that?
>
> I play by patterns that I have learnt through trial and error and I
> know these patterns so well at this point, that I can't play what I
> hear in my head in real time. Who cares if I don't know what scale or
> mode I'm playing?
Good for you.
>
> Chris
>
Grinner
"iarwain" <iarw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183463894....@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> Learning patterns per se does nothing unless you know what you are doing
>> with each interval and how it relates to the key signature you are
>> playing in, what it harmonises with and why it adds it's particular
>> flavour.
>
>
> I wouldn't go so far as to say that guitarists, especially in the rock
> genre, HAVE to study music theory. Certainly there have been a lot of
> successful players who haven't. What they end up doing though, is
> picking up enough of it, to play and write well, even if they don't
> precisely know what's going on in depth. They just know it works.
>
> Guitarists learn mostly from other players. Anyone who has played an
> open C chord is reaping the benefit of SOMEONE's understanding of
> music theory. The Beatles, for instance, I don't believe they studied
> music theory,
> Paul McCartney took piano lessons.
well that's contradictory.
>
> So while I don't think studying music theory is a MUST for rock
> guitarists, I would certainly never suggest that it would hurt, and
> would most likely be quite beneficial. If someone wanted my advice I
> would recommend it. Learn as much as you can, knowledge won't hurt
> you. One good reason for learning the technical side of things is
> that it helps you communicate with other musicians. I would think
> most people interested in music would be curious about such things and
> try to grow.
Exactly, putting tags on the audible.
iarwain
**********
Yeah, it is, kind of, isn't it? Paul and the other Beatles have long
maintained that they couldn't read music. Yet Paul took piano lessons
in the mid sixties as part of an effort to improve himself. I don't
know of too many piano lessons that don't start out with teaching you
some of the notes on the staff. So how is it he can't read music?
I've even brought this up in rec.music.beatles, a very knowledgeable
group, but no one seems to know the answer.
I'm guessing when he says he can't read music, maybe he means he can't
read it fluently. It all goes along with my theory that these rock
people know more than they're letting on.
RichL
(*another rec.music.beatles guy*) <--me
Here's what I think, not that I have any inside info or anything.
What Paul probably meant is that he can't sight read. I can't either,
although I took 6 years of piano lessons as a child before I took up guitar.
I can sit and study a piece of sheet music and work my way through it and
ultimately figure out what the notes are supposed to be. But I can't just
have someone plop down a piece of sheet music in front of me and play the
song in real time. And for me, in rock at least, I find sheet music to be a
very inefficient way to learn a song, whether it's a keyboard part or a
guitar part. For me it's faster just to listen, absorb, remember the tune
in my head, then regurgitate it.
I suspect Paul is the same way, although it's possible of course that I'm
wrong. His "lessons" may have been unusual, e.g., mostly technique.
jthread
ahhh, guncho didn't reply. is this the end of an era? i enjoy the
senseless-never-ending replies.
The Repair Guy
>"The Repair Guy" wrote...
>> Guncho <cgu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>it's not what you play, it's how you play it that
>>>matters.
>>
>> <swoooosh!> Another sweeping generalization.
>> You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
>> expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
>> and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
>
>ahhh, guncho didn't reply. is this the end of an
>era? i enjoy the senseless-never-ending replies.
Someone probably turned his computer off,
and he's waiting for someone else to come
along & turn it on again.
Larry
-Larry
"RC_Moonpie" <rc_mo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vrks83h25pkj3oqug...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 16:55:42 -0400, "Larry" <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
>>David Gilmour has never studied Guitar Theory, and himself has said he
>>doesn't have much speed or 'techniquie'.
>>
>>He sure as hell makes up for it. I'll take his guitar over some
>>over-educated scale mastery any day :)
>>
>
>
> He doesnt have much speed but no technique?
>
> He's got technique in spades, in my lowly opinion.
RichL
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:27:37 -0700, iarwain <iarw...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> well that's contradictory.
> >
> >**********
> >
> >Yeah, it is, kind of, isn't it? Paul and the other Beatles have long
> >maintained that they couldn't read music. Yet Paul took piano lessons
> >in the mid sixties as part of an effort to improve himself. I don't
> >know of too many piano lessons that don't start out with teaching you
> >some of the notes on the staff. So how is it he can't read music?
> >I've even brought this up in rec.music.beatles, a very knowledgeable
> >group, but no one seems to know the answer.
>
> to know about Sir Paul?
She hasn't posted to RMB for a long time.
Guncho
> On Jul 5, 4:17 pm, Guncho <cgun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > 3. Do not learn music theory or you will never write anything
> > > original
>
> > music theory then yes, you will probably never write anything.
>
> > Chris
>
> All it will effect is the writing might be a bit more "proper"
> as far as structure, etc.. But learning theory is not going
> to make you go brain dead as far as imagination.
> If anything, it will probably be the other way around once
> it's absorbed.
> MK
I said, "If all you do is learn theory...."
If that's all you do, then you won't write any song as you won't have
the time.
Chris
Guncho
> On Jul 5, 4:32 pm, Guncho <cgun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That being said a lot of "shredders" aren't creative or
>
> > melodic.
>
> > Chris
>
> Then again, a lot are.. But I don't like the word "shredder"..
> I think it's stupid and should be applied to veggies only.
> If you have a musician in an orchestra, and he plays some
> fast lines, people don't say it's shredding..
> Shredding is a term conjured up by people that hang
> out in geetar centers every Sat morning.. :/
> The tempo of the song means nada to me as far as if it's
> melodic, interesting, etc.. Some fast tempo songs suck.
> Some don't.. Some slow tempo songs suck. Some don't.
> You could wrestle with that dilemma till the cows come
> home.
> MK
But there is a certain type of guitarist referred to as "shredders".
Guitarists where the ultimate goal is not being melodic, it's playing
fast.
It's showing off. Like a trick rider on a motorcross doing
backflips. It's about who plays faster and more complicated, not more
"musical".
Chris
Guncho
> Guncho wrote:
> >There's always this recurring theme in your posts that basically
> >implies that anyone who doesn't learn tonnes of theory will only be
> >able to play a few basic songs. What you fail to realize is, that
> >it's not what you play, it's how you play it that matters.
>
> being able to play basic songs without it. Here's what I wrote:
>
> >> Music theory is a very deep subject. The good news is, you can learn
> >> just enough to enjoy playing a few tunes, or you can devote a lifetime
> >> to it, and still not discover it all.
>
> What I implied is there is a continuum. You can chose to just learn
> enough to play a few tunes, or you can learn more and play more
> complex stuff like say, Dream Theatre. Head knowledge and technique
> on the instrument are two different things.
>
> So, you are correct when you say, "It is not what you play, it's how
> you play it". Personally, I am interested in and persue both.
You're still implying that unless you learn a lot of theory, you will
only be able to play a few tunes.
All you need is a few chords to play thousands of tunes.
Chris
Guncho
I'd rather not drive with someone who regularily drives excessively
fast.
Chris
Guncho
> You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
> expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
> and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
>
> repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com
Holy nitpicker.
I'm pretty sure everyone understood that I was assuming the guitar
would
be in tune and the chords would be played properly.
Chris
Guncho
I really don't think anyone is saying it's bad to play fast and slow,
they are saying it's bad or boring to do nothing but play fast.
Chris
Guncho
> "The Repair Guy" <repairguy1...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:j3vq831a13tr98jqa...@4ax.com...
>
> > Guncho <cgun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>it's not what you play, it's how you play it that matters.
>
> > <swoooosh!> Another sweeping generalization.
> > You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
> > expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
> > and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
>
> > The Repair Guy
> > repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com
>
> ahhh, guncho didn't reply. is this the end of an era? i enjoy the
> senseless-never-ending replies.
Oh don't worry, I'm back.
Went to this awesome fun thing yesterday called Pottahawk. Every year
about a thousand boats pull up to this beach and everyone gets out and
parties. All the guys have beads and all the girls want beads. Mardi
Gras type deal.
;)
Chris
Guncho
>
> >>>it's not what you play, it's how you play it that
> >>>matters.
>
> >> <swoooosh!> Another sweeping generalization.
> >> You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
> >> expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
> >> and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
>
> >ahhh, guncho didn't reply. is this the end of an
> >era? i enjoy the senseless-never-ending replies.
>
> Someone probably turned his computer off,
> and he's waiting for someone else to come
> along & turn it on again.
>
> The Repair Guy
> repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com
Actually I spent three days fighting spyware on my computer and I
actually won.
Chris
Nil
alt.guitar:
> maybe she started her own newsgroup,
> alt.bitter-spurned-hell-hath-no-fury
Maybe she got together with those fruitcakes from a.m.l-z at the last
Discarded Groupie convention.
Don Evans
Me too ... where's the argument? That said, I'd rather drive with a good
driver who can cope with whatever comes up ... and quickly sometimes.
Don
Derek
>You're still implying that unless you learn a lot of theory, you will
>only be able to play a few tunes.
>All you need is a few chords to play thousands of tunes.
Chris,
I guess this is the point where many others begin blasting you,
questioning your sanity, or referring to you as a troll. I won't,
however, I never said the above, nor was I implying it. Of course
just a few chords can gate you to thousands of songs.
Other than putting words in my mouth (or in this case, keyboard),
which I keep trying to say you aren't getting me, I don't really know
what your point is. You reacted to something I didn't say about
"having to learn theory to be a REAL player" or such.
You have accused me of being a musical elitist before, and an musical
academic. You were incorrect then, and you are incorrect now about
what I am saying. Perhaps if we sat down over a beer (your choice) we
could have this cleared up in no time.
How far is it to Canada from KC? :-)
Guncho
Do you know what the term "shredder" refers to? Ever read an issue of
a Guitar Player magazine?
Chris
Guncho
As we are now in agreeance, there's no problem.
Chris
Don Evans
I think it might be time for you to re-read the OP.
Don
The Repair Guy
>>>you should go on Americas Got Talent.
>>
>>I auditioned a while ago, but got beaten out by
>>a 9-year-old girl who played "America the
>>Beautiful" by armpit-farting. She deserved to
>>win, too. When she was done, there wasn't a
>>dry eye in the place.
>
>are you sure al those hankies werent simply
>people covering their noses?
I never thought of that. Now that you mention it,
there _was_ a lot of coughing and running for
the restrooms...
The Repair Guy
>All you need is a few chords to play thousands
>of tunes.
And all you need is a few words to make thousands
of sentences...
JoeT
"Derek" <de...@ycoaoffice.com> wrote in message
news:1184009005.2...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Derek, ever wonder why lawn mower manufacturers place warnings against
picking up a push mower with your hands and using it to trim bushes in their
manuals ? It's because someone did that very thing, lost their fingers and
brought a lawsuit against the manufacturer for not clearly stating
otherwise! lol
At any rate the comprehension of written communication is proportional to
the abilities of the reader. IIRC the average reading level of native
English speakers in North America is 5th or 6th grade. Exceeding that level
when communicating decreases the number of people who'll truly understand
what was said and increases the odds for accusations of academic elitism,
musical or otherwise. Lets not even think about adding other issues such as
the reader's attitude or emotional state, which in this instance is the
likely culprit. ;)
Now quitcher showin off n start uhtawkin right! LOL
The Repair Guy
>> Someone probably turned his computer off,
>> and he's waiting for someone else to come
>> along & turn it on again.
>
>Actually I spent three days fighting spyware on
>my computer and I actually won.
Don't be so sure. Something or someone seems
to be inserting the word "actually" twice in one
sentence.
The Repair Guy
> The Repair Guy wrote:
>> Guncho wrote:
>> >it's not what you play, it's how you play it that
>> >matters.
>>
>> <swoooosh!> Another sweeping generalization.
>> You can play an out-of-tune wrong chord as
>> expressively as you like, or as mechanically,
>> and it'll still be out of tune and wrong.
>
>Holy nitpicker.
>I'm pretty sure the poster and the rest of us
>assumed the guitar would be in tune and the
>chords would be played properly.
<creak...>
The Repair Guy
> "Don Evans" wrote:
>> Would you really rather ride with a guy who
>> wasn't good enough to drive fast?
>
>I'd rather not drive with someone who regularily
>drives excessively fast.
Still having trouble answering simple questions,
I see.
RichL
> alt.bitter-spurned-hell-hath-no-fury
Ah yes, well I only started posting there a few months ago, so I never saw
her stuff directly, but let's just say her reputation still echoes through
the RMB halls frequently ;-)