Another American Art Form?
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Davey Tilt <qu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:82n5me$ch0$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> A question that has been bugging me... I have asked everyone i can think
of for their input on
> this. I have asked Musicians, fellow Record collectors, DJ's and have
tried to do research on
> the subject(but to no avail) so why not ask here?
>
> Around the world it is agreed...Jazz is considered the ONE TRUE american
art form. While Tin Pan
> Alley's roots are in the European theater, Blues, cajun, zydeco, R&B and
all have roots in
> African rthyms and music. Disco and electronica are also european based
and Rap's roots lie in
> the toasters of jamaica and the UK(as well as euro electronica). Country
and Western music comes
> from the UK and Ireland.
>
> so here's my question: Isn't Surf Music a purely american art form? It has
little or no blues
> influence, started in the garages of Southern California, and the music
itself has elements of
> island and mediteranian sounds but it seems more aesthetic, bring to mind
images of far off
> lands, than actually rooted somewhere else.
>
> I know that Surf music isn't as deep a science as Jazz, and its boundaries
are much tighter than
> jazz but it does deserve a look as another of this country's contribbution
to the world of music
> and art.
>
> cheers
> Davey
>
>
>
Tony Meloche
>
> A question that has been bugging me... I have asked everyone i can think of for their input on
> this. I have asked Musicians, fellow Record collectors, DJ's and have tried to do research on
> the subject(but to no avail) so why not ask here?
>
> Around the world it is agreed...Jazz is considered the ONE TRUE american art form. While Tin Pan
> Alley's roots are in the European theater, Blues, cajun, zydeco, R&B and all have roots in
> African rthyms and music. Disco and electronica are also european based and Rap's roots lie in
> the toasters of jamaica and the UK(as well as euro electronica). Country and Western music comes
> from the UK and Ireland.
>
> so here's my question: Isn't Surf Music a purely american art form? It has little or no blues
> influence, started in the garages of Southern California, and the music itself has elements of
> island and mediteranian sounds but it seems more aesthetic, bring to mind images of far off
> lands, than actually rooted somewhere else.
>
> I know that Surf music isn't as deep a science as Jazz, and its boundaries are much tighter than
> jazz but it does deserve a look as another of this country's contribbution to the world of music
> and art.
>
> cheers
> Davey
First off, you should know I'm a lifelong lover of surf
instrumental, and would still rather play it than anything else. It's
unquestionably purely American, but it does owe a bit to blues in it's
most commonly used scale structures. However, Jazz cetrainly has had
more influence. Jazz is world-wide today, whereas surf is mostly the
USA, (in fact, mostly California, though I know of at least one
surf-music bar in Montreal), and Japan, where it is perenially popular.
But your argument for it being a purely American musical form has some
merit - but I think musicologists of the future will always lump it as a
"branch" of rock music.
The Old Guy
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Davey Tilt
jason
>
> so here's my question: Isn't Surf Music a purely american art form? It has little or no blues
> influence, started in the garages of Southern California, and the music itself has elements of
> island and mediteranian sounds but it seems more aesthetic, bring to mind images of far off
> lands, than actually rooted somewhere else.
I think Surf Music is just considered a "trend" that good old Rock n'
Roll went through. It's a branch off the same tree, and therefore not a
completely new style of music.
-jason
AT
wrote:
>Davey Tilt wrote:
>>
>> so here's my question: Isn't Surf Music a purely american art form?
You could definately say that.
>>It has little or no blues
>> influence,
Hmmm...Starting to stretch here. While in general not too blues
related, quite a few of the surf bands covered blues based stuff.
>I think Surf Music is just considered a "trend" that good old Rock n'
>Roll went through. It's a branch off the same tree, and therefore not a
>completely new style of music.
That makes sense but I might add; In the early 1960's Surf Music
basically saved the electric guitar as the main instrument of
importance in rock and roll at a time when record companies considered
it to be through and old news.
jason
>
> That makes sense but I might add; In the early 1960's Surf Music
> basically saved the electric guitar as the main instrument of
> importance in rock and roll at a time when record companies considered
> it to be through and old news.
I'm not sure I get that. What would have taken its place as the main
instrument of Rock n' Roll?
-jason
jason carr
wrote:
>A question that has been bugging me... I have asked everyone i can think of for their input on
>this. I have asked Musicians, fellow Record collectors, DJ's and have tried to do research on
>the subject(but to no avail) so why not ask here?
Man, I parsed this as "Another American Ant Farm". What's worse is I
was interested in that thread...
--
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AT
wrote:
I should have been more clear. Record companies in the early 1960's
basically "shunned" bands based on rockin' guitar riffs. They wanted
only to produce syrupy sweet, Fabian/Frankie Avalon type gay boys. It
was all keys and strings with rhythm guitar way, way back in the mix.
Guitar took a back seat if it were present at all.
During those pathetic years, surf music was the only thing on the
scene with mega amounts of riff based guitar playing.
In the late 50's and up to the late 60's, there were many music
related pondits that kept preaching "guitar bands and guitar based
music are on the way out". They kept this up until the late 1960's
when they were finally exposed as idiots, due to the guitar's vast
importance in virtually all rock music.
That's one of the reasons Little Richard rejected the Beatles in
fact. He could have "had a piece" of them in the early 60's but like
the idiot that he is, rejected the idea. He bought into the "guitar
bands don't have a chance" idea.
Davey Tilt
call surf a true branch of Rock and Roll. They use the same instruments but are completly
different styles, different timing, different rules etc. I don't see a blues base in surf music
and i don't see the progression from rock or rockabilly to the sound of surf. Does anyone have
examples? Then again i am a listener and not into theory too much. Some posts say that you break
down the boundaries of Rthym and Blues and you have surf music. But JAZZ is the boundaries of
blues knocked down... aaugh its confusing and i read too much into it!!!
I guess i should mention I collect records(i have between 20 and 25,000 and it growns literally
every day) , from race records to blues to r&b, rockabilly, doo wop, rock an roll, soul all the
way up to punk rock and beyond and I really don't see a traceable progression theres just this
THING called surf music that pops almost out of nowhere, which is why i asked the question in the
first place. Either i have a BIG hole in my collection or i'm totally clueless. Now that i think
of it, the one bridge could be Dick Dale and the Del tones, whos first lp's vocal stuff did have
some roots in r&r, but like the beach boys, i see more of a Letterman/DooWop connection, too
diluted to call true R&B. Its not very obvious.
thanks for the help and keep it coming!
Davey
John Sessoms
jason carr wrote:
>
> Man, I parsed this as "Another American Ant Farm". What's worse is I
> was interested in that thread...
>
--
"I'm not a Cobol programmer, although I'm often told I look like one" - Bob the
Dinosaur, Dilbert
John Sessoms
So MANY guitars, so little money... (SIGH!)
Note: I can barely speak for myself, so don't go gettin'
any ideas that my words represent the views of anyone else.
Frank Hudson
American art form". Not that I don't love jazz, not that Americans didn't
start it and not that Americans haven't produced much great music
assigned to that genre--it's that idea that it's the only one--and what's
up with this nationalistic and genre boundary thing?
Last part first: what makes something American? Created only by native
born citizens of the USA? Does the rest of North America count, and as
Randy Newman pointed out "South America stole our name...."? How about
foreign nationals working in the US with US musicians? Is that American?
Was Jimi Hendrix then British? Django and Weather Report ain't jazz?
What is an art form? Categorizing art is often after the fact anyway, but
at what hierarchic level is it a "form"? Jazz after all is music, music
didn't start in the US. On the other hand numbers of musical styles were
to my mind first created inside of US borders.
You point out surf. The whole big shebang we call rock and roll
(including many different forms). Ragtime. Blues is no more African than
Jazz is (and unless we count the trans-Asiaitc migrant playing on his
courting flute every North American has got some ancestral music that you
can trace some element back to--but there we go again--isn't that an
"American Art Form"). The "Broadway musical". Dowop. There are probably
many more. And we're just talking music, and popular and folk music at
that. Think of the literary, dance, dramatic, painting, etc forms that
first took shape in the US or in the American hemisphere.
As musicians I think we commonly understand the term "form". "A 12 bar
blues in C" or "16 bars over a Am7 vamp" or "rhythm changes with an extra
4 bar tag at the end" or even "Kinda like that Metallica song, but
faster"--these are forms. Next jam session just try calling out a tune by
calling for "jazz". Duh!
The only other way "form" makes sense is as to regards to media.
Sculpture or Metal sculpture is a media. In which case jazz is music and
I think we can say music isn't owned by America (perhaps it's owned by
Sony, but that's another matter....)
So "American" is somewhat problematic, "only" is a bizarre statement to
cover this century, much less several hundred years of recorded history,
"form" is a meaningless taxonomy applied to jazz. I think what many of
the repeaters of this phrase mean to stress is the "art" part--they mean
to stress jazz is "art" while all these other musical forms are
"commercial crap". And non-musical art? I guess they just aren't thinking
about that.
Well I agree! Jazz is art. Good art! Tasty art! Mmmm art! I don't agree
with the implied categorization of the other stuff as "not art" or this
weird "the only American art form" thing.
OK, now I'm done ranting. I think I'll plug in and play the Pipeline riff
and feel like a good 'merican--and I know it's art too.
In article <82n5me$ch0$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, qu...@ix.netcom.com
says...
> A question that has been bugging me... I have asked everyone i can think of for their input on
> this. I have asked Musicians, fellow Record collectors, DJ's and have tried to do research on
> the subject(but to no avail) so why not ask here?
>
> Around the world it is agreed...Jazz is considered the ONE TRUE american art form. While Tin Pan
> Alley's roots are in the European theater, Blues, cajun, zydeco, R&B and all have roots in
> African rthyms and music. Disco and electronica are also european based and Rap's roots lie in
> the toasters of jamaica and the UK(as well as euro electronica). Country and Western music comes
> from the UK and Ireland.
>
> so here's my question: Isn't Surf Music a purely american art form? It has little or no blues
> influence, started in the garages of Southern California, and the music itself has elements of
> island and mediteranian sounds but it seems more aesthetic, bring to mind images of far off
> lands, than actually rooted somewhere else.
>
> I know that Surf music isn't as deep a science as Jazz, and its boundaries are much tighter than
> jazz but it does deserve a look as another of this country's contribbution to the world of music
> and art.
-Frank Hudson
remove the "x" when replying
Web page with sound samples, gear pics and tributes at:
http://www.users.uswest.net/~fhudson/
Matt Friedman
>
> I know of at least one surf-music bar in Montreal
Ummm... where?
MF [Who's in Montreal and loves surf]
Davey Tilt
trolls to turn this thread into a fight like so many others do by some of the statements i make,
and the contexts i use in replying. I was talking to my pops today about this, he made an
interesting statement i agree with; We yanks tend to want every historical detail to be linear,
as in one thing leads to another to produce the current result, be it visual art, or music or
otherwise. While i don't know the whole story and every answer to your questions, which are the
some of the SAME questions i have and have tried to answer through studying and more
inmportantly LISTENING, i'll tell you what i do know... keep in mind I'm only 30 and hindsight
is cloudy at best. I'm trying to learn WHY i play and listen to what i do and WHAT led to this.
Most of the following is me "thinking aloud" as opposed to complete educated statements.
>I've never understood that oft repeated statement "Jazz in the one true
>American art form". Not that I don't love jazz, not that Americans didn't
>start it and not that Americans haven't produced much great music
>assigned to that genre--it's that idea that it's the only one--and what's
>up with this nationalistic and genre boundary thing?
I dont' think americans were the first to make this statement. Hell i should find out, it could
have been Kurt Wiel.
>
>What is an art form? Categorizing art is often after the fact anyway, but
>at what hierarchic level is it a "form"? Jazz after all is music, music
>didn't start in the US. On the other hand numbers of musical styles were
>to my mind first created inside of US borders.
I think you're going a little too deep here. Remember the US is one of the "youngest" and
"uncultured" countries on the planet, according to other countries. Our "heritage" is a mishmash
of foriegn influence. We're still a country with ethnic areas established by the original
immigrant settlers to various regions(look at Louisiana or Eastern Pennsylvania for reference).
We're a multicultural and multilingual country, built bby immigrants and STILL undergoing
changes every day. I live in southern california(north san diego county), I'm only 30 and i can
tell you when i was a kid we were much more "whitewashed" as a region that we are now, i grew up
in the textbook mirror image of levittown. Now Food, language, work ethic, music and everything
else i can't think of are all influenced by the high numbers of mexican and southeast asian
immigrants here, as well as us white folk. We have our own language growing in popularity here
called SPANGLISH,a mixture of spanish and English. I wonder how this area will be in 100 years,
our people will be similar to the Acadians inasmuch as having our own language and customs...
there really is a point to all of this... and i'll be surprised if i can touch on it before i
finish this post sometime in february. :) with a little studying, you'll find that everything we
hold dear to our hearts as "American", from Basketball to Rock and Roll to the peanut butter and
jelly sandwich is actually from another country.
Lets get to your music examples
>Ragtime.
You got me there I'll look into it, but as far as i know, Ragtime stems from jazz. Boogiewoogie
comes from blues and ragtime, boogiewoogie is one part of the Rthym and Blues equation.
Blues is no more African than
>Jazz is
You should read the work Alan Lomax and his father did in recording and documenting early blues.
They show without any doubt that BLUES is African music, the music and celebratory culture of
Africa and what we call blues is nearly identical, from the diddly bow to the fife and drum
dances. I can tell you this, The bottle slide is probably the one "american" contribution to the
blues but hell i may even be wrong there!
The "Broadway musical".
Came from European theater, A direct and easily traceable descendent of the Gilbert and Sullivan
approach to Opera and the operetta.
Doowop.
from blues, descended from african vocal music.
There are probably
>many more. And we're just talking music, and popular and folk music at
>that.
folk music is rooted in the minstrel music of Europe. Balladeering(one common misconception is
that a "ballad" is a slow song, like "stairway to heaven" or "home sweet home" but a ballad is a
story, historical or fictional set to music.)
Think of the literary, dance, dramatic, painting, etc forms that
>first took shape in the US or in the American hemisphere.
hmmm are there any? maybe roller disco and break dancing but everything from ballet to STOMP is
rooted in european and african culture and is easily traceable and still in practice at the
source.
>The only other way "form" makes sense is as to regards to media.
>Sculpture or Metal sculpture is a media. In which case jazz is music and
>I think we can say music isn't owned by America (perhaps it's owned by
>Sony, but that's another matter....)
Ok the term "form" is used in lieu of "classification"
>
>So "American" is somewhat problematic,
"only" is a bizarre statement to
>cover this century, much less several hundred years of recorded history,
>"form" is a meaningless taxonomy applied to jazz. I think what many of
>the repeaters of this phrase mean to stress is the "art" part--they mean
>to stress jazz is "art" while all these other musical forms are
>"commercial crap". And non-musical art? I guess they just aren't thinking
>about that.
"Art" meaning CONTRIBUTION TO CULTURAL ADVANCEMENT. Everything is art, art can be everything but
very little art actually advances the human race as a whole. JAZZ is one of those rare forms.
Lets hope we as a race of people, as carbon based life forms, are judged on JAZZ instead of
BUBBLEGUM.
And i think i answered my own original question just now.... Doh! I guess an answer is easier to
find if you understand the question eh?
>
>Well I agree! Jazz is art. Good art! Tasty art! Mmmm art! I don't agree
>with the implied categorization of the other stuff as "not art" or this
>weird "the only American art form" thing.
The lets say this instead JAZZ IS THE UNITED STATES CONTRIBUTION TO CULTURAL ADVANCEMENT
(and by the looks of my reply to your post, i certainly didn't illustrate a linear means to an
end in making this statement) maybe i should erase this whole thing and reply tommmorow...
hopefully someone who knows(or at least pretends to know) what he/she is talking about will come
save me!
cheers
Davey
Frank Hudson
says...
Comments inline. My mood isn't mad at anyone, just that the dam "Jazz is
the only American art form" comment has always struck me as unexamined
thought.
<snip> (stuff we probably all agree on)
>
> Lets get to your music examples
>
> >Ragtime.
>
> You got me there I'll look into it, but as far as i know, Ragtime stems from jazz. Boogiewoogie
> comes from blues and ragtime, boogiewoogie is one part of the Rthym and Blues equation.
Ragtime precedes jazz.
> Blues is no more African than
> >Jazz is
>
> You should read the work Alan Lomax and his father did in recording and documenting early blues.
> They show without any doubt that BLUES is African music, the music and celebratory culture of
> Africa and what we call blues is nearly identical, from the diddly bow to the fife and drum
> dances. I can tell you this, The bottle slide is probably the one "american" contribution to the
> blues but hell i may even be wrong there!
I've read a lot about the origins of the blues. My conclusions are that
Blues is no more (or less) African than Jazz. Yes there are tantalizing
and still extant African musical practices that seem linked to Afro-
American musical practices. But Africa didn't produce Miles Davis nor BB
King, nor Louis Armstrong or Charlie Patton. There are European
influences and non-African influences in Jazz and Blues too. I think
Black Americans are just as capable as other ethnic groups of
synthesising art from everywhere. We all ought to be damn thankful about
it too. As the renowned musicologist Ray Manzarek put it "If it wasn't
for Afro-Americans we'd all still be dancing the minuet."
You're getting into one of the things that frustrate me about the
unexamined "only American art form" statement--doesn't EVERY artist have
influences, doesn't every artistic style have antecedents? Since modern
times it has become increasingly easy for these influences to flow across
borders.
>
> The "Broadway musical".
>
> Came from European theater, A direct and easily traceable descendent of the Gilbert and Sullivan
> approach to Opera and the operetta.
Here's were we get into those lines of what constitutes a distinct style,
if the folks who say "only original art form" mean style or genre instead
of form. The classic Broadway musical of the 30's-60's is very different
from Gilbert and Sullivan. I suspect a pool of Martians given
representative examples from each could soon learn to classify them as
different. BB King says Django Reinhardt influenced him. I can hear some
of that, but I think I could tell them apart in a blindfold test.
Classifications of styles and so forth are dicey in art, and they're
often applied after the fact, so part of the problem I have with the
"form" part is that there ain't no pure and hard boundaries to any
artistic genre (if that's what they mean by "art form").
> Doowop.
>
> from blues, descended from african vocal music.
You betcha there is African stuff there, and yes some dowop records are
blues. And some aren't. And there is plenty of European stuff in there
too. And there is no African or European stuff in Jazz? And the French,
the Senagalize, and the Koreans didn't invent Dowop.
>
> There are probably
> >many more. And we're just talking music, and popular and folk music at
> >that.
>
> folk music is rooted in the minstrel music of Europe. Balladeering(one common misconception is
> that a "ballad" is a slow song, like "stairway to heaven" or "home sweet home" but a ballad is a
> story, historical or fictional set to music.)
I didn't mean folk music as in the Joan Baez songbook, etc--I meant only
that in my examples I wasn't getting into things like so called "serious
music" which I know less about. Still Charles Ives probably thought his
music distinctly American, it was certainly artistic in intent. Similarly
Parch did too (though he liked to talk about Greek antecedents).
>
> Think of the literary, dance, dramatic, painting, etc forms that
> >first took shape in the US or in the American hemisphere.
>
> hmmm are there any? maybe roller disco and break dancing but everything from ballet to STOMP is
> rooted in european and african culture and is easily traceable and still in practice at the
> source.
I'm guessing we both know too little about non-musical arts to pass
judgement on this. I just think it likely that maybe one or two other
styles in some other artistic endeavor strike experts in that field as
having begun in the American hemisphere. From the "roller disco" comment
you may want to restrict this to the USA. It off the topic, but I do find
the term "American" to be unexamined. For example I can remember watching
a Formula 1 race a few years back and someone asking if the there were
any Americans in the race, and I replied that the generally acknowledged
best driver in the world at the time was Aryton Senna from Brazil. "But I
asked about Americans" they replied. Then I knew what they meant: a US
citizen. I'm probably eccentric here--but I really do view America as
these two big chunks or rock sticking out of the ocean. Maybe if we get
closer to the USA it gets clearer what I mean here. Can you see Carlos
Santana, Bob Marley, Neil Young, or the Band as American artists?
>
> >The only other way "form" makes sense is as to regards to media.
> >Sculpture or Metal sculpture is a media. In which case jazz is music and
> >I think we can say music isn't owned by America (perhaps it's owned by
> >Sony, but that's another matter....)
>
> Ok the term "form" is used in lieu of "classification"
Call it what you will, I do see some answers already in this thread
rejecting other possible "American Art forms" by saying they're really
"sub-forms" ineligible because they are part of a larger "form" (or
whatever) that isn't American. Of course they're correct. But doesn't
this also apply to Jazz--it has many different sub-categories, and it
itself it a sub category of music?
> >
> >So "American" is somewhat problematic,
>
>
> "only" is a bizarre statement to
> >cover this century, much less several hundred years of recorded history,
> >"form" is a meaningless taxonomy applied to jazz. I think what many of
> >the repeaters of this phrase mean to stress is the "art" part--they mean
> >to stress jazz is "art" while all these other musical forms are
> >"commercial crap". And non-musical art? I guess they just aren't thinking
> >about that.
>
> "Art" meaning CONTRIBUTION TO CULTURAL ADVANCEMENT. Everything is art, art can be everything but
> very little art actually advances the human race as a whole. JAZZ is one of those rare forms.
> Lets hope we as a race of people, as carbon based life forms, are judged on JAZZ instead of
> BUBBLEGUM.
Well I certainly feel Jazz has done this for me. So has other art, some
of it by Americans. Let's all be glad for what has helped us grow.
> And i think i answered my own original question just now.... Doh! I guess an answer is easier to
> find if you understand the question eh?
>
> >
> >Well I agree! Jazz is art. Good art! Tasty art! Mmmm art! I don't agree
> >with the implied categorization of the other stuff as "not art" or this
> >weird "the only American art form" thing.
>
> The lets say this instead JAZZ IS THE UNITED STATES CONTRIBUTION TO CULTURAL ADVANCEMENT
> (and by the looks of my reply to your post, i certainly didn't illustrate a linear means to an
> end in making this statement) maybe i should erase this whole thing and reply tommmorow...
Change the "the" to an "a" or the even add a "greatest" after the "the"
and I'll sign on. I just think the real core of the puzzling "the only
American art form" statement intent is to say "the rest ain't art". And I
object to that.
If I was to say "Steve Vai is the only American guitar artist" and
parried objections like this:
Joe Pass, really influenced by Europeans.
Sharon Isbin, she's just a classical guitarist--they all want to play the
same so she's identical to John Williams
Adrian Belew, he plays drums sometimes.
Prince, he's more of a singer.
and so on....
You'd get the idea that what my statement was really aiming at to say was
"Vai rulz dudz" and "other guitarists suck" or I had some really peculiar
idea about what "guitar artist" was. After trying to figure out any other
way to understand the "Jazz is the only American Art form" statement I
think it often comes down to meaning something like the same.
I'm such an inconsistent and inconstant musician that I'd just a soon
play some nice funk as some nice modal jazz as some raunchy blues as some
crunching rock and maybe the tune for any of those will be "No More
Auction Block". It all sounds like some American music to me.
> hopefully someone who knows(or at least pretends to know) what he/she is talking about will come
> save me!
>
> cheers
> Davey
-Frank Hudson