Neck Relief
VanHanlon
more relief on the low-E side of the neck than the high-e? When
measuring with feeler gauges, I get a few thousandths more under the
low-E at 7th fret. If this is not normal, then is my neck slightly
twisted? Even though I've got it set up for factory relief, action,
and pickup height, my unwound strings don't ring clearly like they
used to. Did I mess something up?
-Jonathan
Patrick Keenan
news:ccb7e889-4cdf-4dab...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
Twists are usually not that consistent. A piece of wood that's twisted
will often show more of a spiral, and will usually be much more than a few
thousanths of an inch.
Guitar strings tend to be put together in sets that have roughly similar
amounts of tension for each string at a given pitch center, for example
A=440.
It's possible that the neck could benefit from a light fret dress, but what
you can do is take the strings off, and set the trussrod to have the neck as
straight as possible, measured with your 12' - 18" machinist's straight
edge. From there, you can get a better idea of what the neck is doing.
You should also check for loose frets, as this can create an illusion of a
twist.
Finally, your playing style does matter. If you move the string down
towards the fingerboard rather than across its width, you have less of a
chance of clean vibration.
HTH
-pk
keith...@socal.rr.com
It shouldnt have any relief at all IMO.
I like em dead flat. If the frets buzz then they need work. A few
thousandths of an inch shouldnt matter though. If the strings dont
ring like you want them to then try adjusting the pick up height
Patrick Keenan
Dead flat is acceptable for lap steels, which IIRC is the type of guitar
you actually play.
In the context of a standard guitar, it's acceptable only if the frets
are perfect, if the action is set appropriately (the bridge goes up as
the neck straightens) and the player has very good control over picking
technique, and does not flail away. People playing rhythm guitar often
can't use this setup because they move the strings too far: the
curvature is needed because the vibrating string forms an arc over its
length.
Pickup height is influential only if they are too high and interfere
with the string's vibration. You can rule this out in a few seconds by
dropping the pickups away from the strings.
HTH
-pk
David L. Martel
I don't understand why you believe that the neck relief is different on
the two sides of the neck. Your measurement may not show that since the nut
sluts might be miscut, the frets might be uneven, or the actions might be
set different for some reason. Any of these things could cause you to see a
few thousandths difference without any problem with neck relief.
What leads you to suspect neck relief and do you think that it must be
fixed?
It sounds as if you've gone to a lot of effort to set up your guitar as
if it just came out of the factory. Most folks prefer to set up a guitar to
match their individual preferences.
As to the unwound strings not ringing, what exactly have you done to the
guitar? This wouldn't be a neck relief problem. Poor nut slut work maybe?
Pickups too close to the strings?
Dave M.
Sac Dave
"VanHanlon" <vanh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ccb7e889-4cdf-4dab...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
How are you checking the relief ? Are you putting a capo on the first fret
? then pressing down on the 15 to 17 fret Then checking the relief.
The Repair Guy
>Is it normal for an electric guitar (I play a Gibson Flying
>V) to have more relief on the low-E side of the neck than
>the high-e?
No, but if it's gotta be uneven, that's the way you'd
want it.
The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com
The Repair Guy
>It shouldnt have any relief at all IMO.
Virtually every guitar manufacturer and tech would
disagree with you. But hey - you call 'em like you
see 'em, right?
Psychonaut
<keith...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:88cea81f-3e62-4d9d...@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
This is nonsense. A neck NEEDS relief so things don't buzz and carry on.
How does dressing, re crowning the frets etc stop buzzing if the neck is
dead flat? If its flat and buzzing you do what the manufacturers intend for
you do...back the truss rod off a bit to get some relief. This sort of
advice is plain wrong.
VanHanlon
> ? then pressing down on the 15 to 17 fret Then checking the relief.
I am checking the relief in exactly that fashion. If I'm using the
strings as straightedges, would that not take the bridge and nut
completely out of the equation? Could it be that Gibson files their
frets somewhat differently from one side of the neck to the other?
keith...@socal.rr.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I wasnt talking about lap steels. The problem with putting neck
relief into a neck via a truss rod is the fact that it puts the relief
in the middle of the neck. Not in the middle of the scales span where
its needed. Thats where the strings eliptical shaped vibrations are
the greatest. Thats why the frets need drop off put into them from
around fret twelve on up and off the end of the neck. You like just
about everyone else dont even know what the truss rods purpose is. Its
too keep the neck flat.; Not to put a dip in its middle where theres
absolutely no reason for it. If a person knows how to play their
guitar they use their wrist and dont move their arm when strumming. A
lead and rhythm guitar players action should be the same. If a person
needs higher action then they should analyze their technique. Also
Patrick. I dont understand why you say a bridge raises as a neck
flattens? If anything it lowers in its relationship to the nut
Patrick Keenan
>> How are you checking the relief ? Are you putting a capo on the first
>> fret
>> ? then pressing down on the 15 to 17 fret Then checking the relief.
>
> I am checking the relief in exactly that fashion. If I'm using the
> strings as straightedges, would that not take the bridge and nut
> completely out of the equation?
Yes, it does.
> Could it be that Gibson files their
> frets somewhat differently from one side of the neck to the other?
No, they don't, but they do do something in a way few others do. Gibson
fingerboards are fretted and dressed off the neck, the neck is shaped, and
then the fingerboard is glued to the neck.
Check the neck with the strings off using a long straight-edge, support the
neck carefully and use the trussrod, and see how it looks there.
A few thousandths of an inch shouldn't be much of a problem to overcome, and
may simply indicate a high fret or two, which can be easily addressed with a
light fret dress. A need for this isn't unusual.
As to going by factory spec - factory specs don't tend to specify playing
style or technique. If your style is more aggressive than the benchmark
used at the factory, you may find the action too low. If your technique is
lighter and more controlled, it may be too high.
HTH
-pk
keith...@socal.rr.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah Patrick. I play lap steel...but I work on and build regular
Spanish trype guitars. Knowing how to play one has nothing to do with
understanding how one works or how to make it more playable. As RichCI
once said. "knowing how to drive a car doesnt make you a mechanic" Do
me a favor Patrick. Discuss all you want with me but dont start the
condensending bullshit.
Patrick Keenan
Though that's the only place your comment is meaningful.
> The problem with putting neck
> relief into a neck via a truss rod is the fact that it puts the relief
> in the middle of the neck. Not in the middle of the scales span where
> its needed.
The effect of the rod is actually defined by its length. On an
acoustic, the rod normally runs from the nut to the heel of the neck.
The rod can't have effect past that. On an electric, the rod is longer,
often up to the last or next to last fret, and so the effect of the rod
is extended.
> Thats where the strings eliptical shaped vibrations are
> the greatest.
The amplitude of the arc reduces as the pitch rises, hence less bow is
needed at higher frets.
> Thats why the frets need drop off put into them from
> around fret twelve on up and off the end of the neck.
I only see this done on acoustics, where the neck joint is collapsing
somewhat and the owner can't pay for a reset.
What you describe simply isn't needed.
> You like just
> about everyone else dont even know what the truss rods purpose is.
And you are the only person on the planet who does....
>Its
> too keep the neck flat.;
It's to allow adjustment of the bow, or relief, by balancing the string
tension. And that includes adding bow by reducing tension on the rod.
> Not to put a dip in its middle where theres
> absolutely no reason for it. If a person knows how to play their
> guitar they use their wrist and dont move their arm when strumming.
So now you're an authority on the validity of common technique, too.
> A
> lead and rhythm guitar players action should be the same.
You haven't actually done this for a living, have you? In the real
world, that's just not the case.
> If a person
> needs higher action then they should analyze their technique.
You adapt the guitar to the technique, you don't restrict the artist's
self-expression by requiring them to conform to your personal idea of
what's acceptable style or technique.
Try thinking of your customers as people who can think and speak for
themselves, and who may have a different viewpoint than you - which is
at least as acceptable as yours.
> Also
> Patrick. I dont understand why you say a bridge raises as a neck
> flattens? If anything it lowers in its relationship to the nut
It's very clear that you don't understand this. Take a few minutes to
draw it out, it will become clearer. As the arc straightens, the nut
end of the finger board drops realtive to the fixed points of the bridge
and fingerboard body end, the strings come down, the bridge must be
raised to compensate.
Perhaps what you misunderstand is that I mean the bridge must be raised
for the action height to stay the same as the neck straightens. I do
not mean that the bridge automatically comes up.
HTH
-pk
boardjunkie
Spot on....
keith...@socal.rr.com
I cant recall seeing a guitar manufacturers opinion on the subject.
You need to get some real experience and stop believing what you read
on the internet. The mis information gets passed on and on until dicks
like you have it ingrained into their unimaginative,illogical and
sheep like brains. Its as bad as urban myths that start circulating.
I call them as I see them but only call them if I'm right.
Don Evans
Talk about condescending!! I'd bet most race car drivers know how their cars
work from top to bottom, and I'd also bet they were more qualified to
comment on their car's performance than the mechanics who work on them.
Keith, it's a team effort here too, but you don't seem to think the
"drivers" should have a say in how things are done. I've set my guitars
both ways ... flat and slight relief, and I find that I get best results
with slight relief. When they are set flat, the dynamic range seems to be
limited .. play hard and they get "plinky".
As far as how to properly play rhythm, check out Ritchie Havens and see if
his arm moves .. or try to play pinball wizard without moving your arm.
Ain't gonna happen.
As far as knowing how to play having nothing to do with knowing what makes
one playable goes ... it seems to me that a player would have the advantage
in that case. Not being condescending here at all .. I'd expect you to know
more about how a lap steel should work than I do, as well. And Patrick is
anything but condescending. He is, almost without fail, knowledgeable and
detailed in his explanations about guitar work, and seems to go the extra
mile to be helpful.
Don
keith...@socal.rr.com
> "VanHanlon" <vanhan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Well that explains why only about 1 out of 100 Les Pauls dont need a
fret dress.
keith...@socal.rr.com
correct, The truss rod doesnt affect the heel. Thats where its needed
though. Thats why a truss rod is intended to keep the neck straight
and thats all. I'll say it again so that you might open your mind and
understand. You dont want a dip in the middle of the neck. The middle
of the neck isnt the middle of the string length. Thats at fret
twelve.
Its obvious to me that you know nothing about fret drop off? Pay
attention Patrick because I'm doing my best to explain it. If you've
ever noticed. Unless its a sprung (loose)fret its very seldom you'll
find any fret buzz anywhere on the neck besides from fret 12 to the
heel. Thats not the middle of the neck. When you put relief into a
neck via the truss rod it only affects the middle of the neck. It also
tends to make the tongue rise and that only makes fret buzz worse.
What part dont you get?
RichL
> Not the only one on the planet Patrick. Just the only one here. You're
> correct, The truss rod doesnt affect the heel.
Right so far.
> Thats where its needed though.
Wrong. Correct action at the heel is adjusted by a combination of truss
rod and bridge height.
> Thats why a truss rod is intended to keep the neck straight
> and thats all. I'll say it again so that you might open your mind and
> understand. You dont want a dip in the middle of the neck.
I wouldn't, but the truss rod doesn't just affect the middle of the
neck. It induces a more-or-less constant curvature throughout the neck
length.
> The middle of the neck isnt the middle of the string length.
> Thats at fret twelve.
Correct. So?
> Its obvious to me that you know nothing about fret drop off? Pay
> attention Patrick because I'm doing my best to explain it. If you've
> ever noticed.
Pay attention to the shape of the vibrating string. If you pluck an
open string, its vibration amplitude is largest at fret 12 and falls off
gradually in either direction. You really want the neck's curvature to
follow this to some degree. If your playing style involves plucking the
strings very gently, you don't need much curvature, and you will
probably be able to get away with a flat neck. Not everyone plays that
way though, and playing harder is *not* wrong! It's a matter of
individual style. A "hard" player will want some curvature in the neck
and a relatively high action at the 12th fret.
> Unless its a sprung (loose)fret its very seldom you'll
> find any fret buzz anywhere on the neck besides from fret 12 to the
> heel.
Really. I must have been imagining things then when some yahoo tech
decided my neck should be close to flat and I should have a low action.
Mainly my guitars set up that way buzzed on the first several frets
(i.e., closer to the nut than at the bridge). That guy must have read
your book, eh?
> Thats not the middle of the neck. When you put relief into a
> neck via the truss rod it only affects the middle of the neck.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, oh so very wrong!
> It also tends to make the tongue rise
Ouch!
> and that only makes fret buzz worse.
> What part dont you get?
The part where you think you really know about this stuff. I could try
to explain it, but thousands before me have, and it doesn't do any good.
You can continue to wallow in your "Keith Adams, luthier" fantasy, and
who knows, maybe you know how to make good lap steels where these issues
aren't critical, but you're only fooling yourself here. The thing is,
we've gotta chime in periodically and call BS so the newbs to the group
don't get sucked in to your fantasy world.
Don Evans
You know, I tried to explain why Keith's methodology is flawed. I went into
this whole thing about the arc described by the string and that the relief
is to compensate for that, and so on, but first of all, I didn't make my
point as well as RichL has, and second of all, I realized that I couldn't
effectively cover all the points without way too much verbiage. Good post
RichL.
Fact is, it's not voodoo, it's logical. If you want to play lightly enough
to avoid any buzz down by the nut, make your neck straight. If you want
more dynamic range, put a little (very little) relief in it. It's a
balancing act that can require a few tweaks to get right, so my advice to
players is to learn how to do it properly and do it yourself.
Don
"(¯`·.¸Liberty NymShifter¸.·´¯)"
RichL
> You know, I tried to explain why Keith's methodology is flawed. I
> went into this whole thing about the arc described by the string and
> that the relief is to compensate for that, and so on, but first of
> all, I didn't make my point as well as RichL has, and second of all,
> I realized that I couldn't effectively cover all the points without
> way too much verbiage. Good post RichL.
Thanks! I didn't think my explanation was any better than other folks
who have discussed this, but I figured one more voice chiming in might
help.
> Fact is, it's not voodoo, it's logical. If you want to play lightly
> enough to avoid any buzz down by the nut, make your neck straight.
> If you want more dynamic range, put a little (very little) relief in
> it. It's a balancing act that can require a few tweaks to get right,
> so my advice to players is to learn how to do it properly and do it
> yourself.
Right. From painful previous experience (before I really thought this
through myself *and* had the help of a really good luthier who not only
understood what I needed and tweaked my guitars but also explained what
was going on), I know that what will happen with an agressive player who
has a guitar with a flat neck is that his first inclination will be to
simply raise the bridge to eliminate that buzz on the first few frets.
But what that's going to do is to make the string-to-fret separation
larger than it needs to be at the high frets, even for an aggressive
player. And that just makes playing the guitar harder than it needs to
be.
I was really amazed the first time I had a guitar set up properly *for
me*. I've got a nice, fairly low action at the higher frets and,
mysteriously, no fret buzz at the lower frets. That would be impossible
*for me* with a straight neck.
This is why a good guitar tech will watch you play before he starts
working on your guitar. We all don't play using the same technique, so
why should a "one size fits all" setup make any sense?
So now that I've digested all this and watched my guy go over my guitars
*and* purchased the right tools, I basically do it myself now.
The Repair Guy
>> How are you checking the relief ? Are you putting a
>> capo on the first fret ? then pressing down on the 15
>> to 17 fret Then checking the relief.
>
>I am checking the relief in exactly that fashion. If I'm
>using the strings as straightedges, would that not take
>the bridge and nut completely out of the equation?
Yes.
>Could it be that Gibson files their frets somewhat
>differently from one side of the neck to the other?
No. The neck is slightly twisted. If it's new, return it.
If it's out of warranty, A) live with it or B) get it fixed
if it bugs you.
The Repair Guy
>RichL wrote:
>You know, I tried to explain why Keith's methodology
>is flawed. I went into this whole thing about the arc
>described by the string and that the relief is to
>compensate for that, and so on, but first of all, I didn't
>make my point as well as RichL has, and second of
>all, I realized that I couldn't effectively cover all the
>points without way too much verbiage. Good post
>RichL.
Ditto.
The Repair Guy
>Do me a favor Patrick. Discuss all you want with me
>but dont start the condensending bullshit.
Let me see if I got this... you want other people to
treat you with respect, but you can say whatever
you want. Is that about it?
The Repair Guy
> The Repair Guy wrote:
>> keithad...@socal.rr.com wrote:
>> >It shouldnt have any relief at all IMO.
>>
>> Virtually every guitar manufacturer and tech would
>> disagree with you. But hey - you call 'em like you
>> see 'em, right?
>
> I cant recall seeing a guitar manufacturers opinion
>on the subject.
Jesus... ask around, or have someone Google
"guitar neck relief" for you. Or look at a few guitar
makers' web sites. Most of them have setup pages.
>You need to get some real experience and stop
>believing what you read on the internet.
I've been fixing guitars for decades. I learned fairly
soon that very few people can play - or prefer - a
straight neck.
>The mis information
--snip--
You haven't shown that it's misinformation. All
you've done is give your opinion, and, as I said,
it doesn't take that long to check - almost no one
who builds or repairs guitars shares it.
AJ
@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, vanh...@hotmail.com says...
tension on the wound string side, as do some of the heavier gauges. Also
thin necks are more sensitive than thick ones. Rickenbacker puts double
truss rods in their 12 to compensate for the uneven tension. If it's
only a couple of thousandths and it's stable, it shouldn't be a problem.
You don't need as much relief on the plain string side anyway since
those strings vibrate in a tighter pattern.
As far as straight vs. relief some people prefer one over the other.
With a straight neck, the action has to get progressively higher and
higher as you go up the neck to avoid buzzing. With relief the action
can be much more consistent. I can't imagine a 24 fret neck without some
relief, it would be like a 1950's mail order guitar. FWIW, Gibson
recommends .007" to .014", you can find that on the web site. Fender
recommends .010" as a starting point as do most others. One danger in
having the neck perfectly straight is a significant rise in humidity can
send it into a reverse bow, which can damage it.