Guitar Building Myths

[Grip]

Makes no difference to me, just came accross this while watching blues
deluxe demos.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah20CV0vYX4&feature=related

[Tony Done]

"Grip" wrote in message
news:fec26cf7-0921-419e...@z31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...

Makes no difference to me, just came accross this while watching blues
deluxe demos.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah20CV0vYX4&feature=related

****************

<g> Can you find one that addresses the proposition that an electric guitar
is just a fancy lump of wood that holds the pickups that drives the amp?

Tony D

[jtees4]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:46:57 -0800 (PST), Grip <mbe...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>Makes no difference to me, just came accross this while watching blues
>deluxe demos.....
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah20CV0vYX4&feature=related

He overgeneralized everything. Example: The frets all being put in by
hand...Some are put in a machine and pressed into the fretboard,
others are hammered in by hand literally. Not really the same.
I don't think he mentioned finishing, this is where there are big
differences depending on type of finish etc.
I do agree a lot is BS, but not all is...and I also don't assume hand
built is automatically better necessarily.

[Sac Dave]

Good point even if it's carved by a CNC someones hand has to push the
button to turn it on, hand built.

[the_cat]

I doubt it - you are wrong..try a Strat and LesPaul even
unplugged....no difference ?? . meow..

[Mikey]

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:46:57 -0800 (PST), Grip <mbe...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>Makes no difference to me, just came accross this while watching blues
>deluxe demos.....
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah20CV0vYX4&feature=related

Here is a crappy design i made at work. It was designed in Autocad and
subsequently i made a tiny scale model on a CNC milling center at
work. Yes.... i lost my job after that.... lol.... Handmade, because i
used a mouse, wrench and "Start" button.

http://www.intri-tech.net/surfcam/surfcamscalemodel.htm

http://www.intri-tech.net/graphics/Scale1.JPG

Oh well....

mikey

[Carl]

I agree with everything you've said here. He could have used that exact same
video to argue that "they're all built by machine" just by substituting
"machine" for "hand" and he would have been just as "right". I thought he
was going to say "machine" when he began.

When a craftsman luthier builds a guitar by "hand" (and he may use a CNC
machine to cut out basic shapes), there is a lot more personal attention
paid to the fine points of guitar building, such as brace shaving,
top-carving, tap-tuning, fret finishing, and finish application. There is a
difference when an individual, putting his personal interest and heart into
his work, takes 3 months to finish a guitar, inspecting every step along the
way, than when a guitar is made by the MANY hands of a large assembly line
manufacturer in a few days.

If one doesn't see that, then we would have to agree to disagree.

In the end, as jtees4 points out, there is no guarantee that the luthier
hand-built guitar will be "better" (however that's defined) than the
mass-produced one upon which many hands were layed. But, for me, I'll take
my chances with the luthier, at least the ones I've met.

On a last note, I couldn't help but notice that the presentation was based
on electric guitars. I think the presentation would even take on larger
questionable significance if he talked about acoustic guitars in which these
building issues factor in even more, imho.

[Tony Done]

"the_cat" wrote in message
news:1f359111-afe8-4d78...@og8g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...

******************

Sure, but between a $150 and a $5000 strat? And don't you think that the
acoustic differences between timbers can be compensated to a large extent,
if not entirely, by the electronic chain and other hardware?

Tony D

[Tony Done]

"Tony Done" wrote in message news:jgeo6g$1fo$1...@dont-email.me...

****************

My best sounding electric guitar by a long streak is a super cheapo OLP bari
that is a knockoff off of a Music Man, using 10-46 strings to open D
tuning. - But I did put better pickups in it.

Tony D

[the_cat]

On Feb 2, 1:41 pm, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> "Tony Done"  wrote in messagenews:jgeo6g$1fo$1...@dont-email.me...

> Tony D- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No I don't think so - My Strat doesn't sound like my LP and my HH tele
doesn't sound like either. And unless its overdriiven to the max you
can tell the difference.and messing with amp and efx does change
that.. But something you are totally missing is the FEEL in your hand,
and the feel of the frets... but if all you do is play slide that may
not matter as much... a 2x4 with pickups ??? My Toyota Yaris will get
me to work, but I like my Jaguar XK8 better... so $150 vs $5k for a
guitar..... I sure as hell could tell the difference ,, how much a
difference is worth it?? really depends on how important it is to you
and how much $$ ya got.( and your wife will O.K.!!..) meow..

[Tony Done]

"Mikey" wrote in message news:hgcli7pck7emrtp0s...@4ax.com...

*********************

That second one would be good made out of tungsten, nice and heavy.

I'm all in favour of CNC production for guitars, high precision neck joints
in acoustics for example. I looked at a traditionally-made guitar at the
w/e - a Martin D-28. The shaping on the two sides sides of the headstock was
different, and you pay about $4000 for the privilege of owing that kind of
sloppy workmanship in Oz. My LP Special is the same, the shaping on the edge
of the neck binding is all over the place. A 10 y/o could have done better
after a couple of woodwork lessons. I can understand wanting to pay for
mojo, I do it myself, but IMO anyone who thinks that any practical advantage
comes for high price is deluding themselves. I won't use the term
pretentious wanker for fear of offending someone.

Tony D

[Bruce Morgen]

My response to the video was
along the lines of, "Thank
you, Captain Obvious."

[Flasherly]

Read my mind by the last paragraph. Questionable becomes a
diminishing residual of tenable when looking over a range of $20-$50K
Artesian Signature and other extant rarities [of] "stock" carried
(worldwide) by select parties (vendors in pragmatic terms to ya'all --
similarly USED), being what in discriminating economical terms is
somewhat drastically different for an interest base comprising vastly
fewer guitarists capable of structuring and commanding such a micro-
economic free market. An understanding within a goodly number of
those guitars which come with economically valid and supportive
pedigrees -- ie, whom and by what recordings pressed and released on a
given model, or over such and such a range by concerts and events
performed are applicable. Electric market to that stuff is the
difference between a black-tie, tuxedo and champagne, and attending
the local farmers' pig auction. I've nothing against clogging, mind
-- nope, nothing at all -- jus' sayin'. . .

[WB]

On 2/2/2012 7:49 AM, Sac Dave wrote:
>
> Good point even if it's carved by a CNC

Which is why there are trillions of pieces of crap
under every teenager's bed.

[WB]

On 2/2/2012 12:53 AM, Tony Done wrote:
>

>
> <g> Can you find one that addresses the proposition that an electric
> guitar is just a fancy lump of wood that holds the pickups that drives
> the amp?
>
>

ummm considering they are still made essentially with the
same materials since 1930's ... whatz your point ? I say old
models at least have some mojo and uniqueness among them, a compared
to cookie cutter stamped out models.

But a magnet, a pot, 25 inches of a fretboard ... yeah .. still a lump
of wood.

[jtees4]

Agreed. I don't think anyone would argue about machine vs: hand built
when it comes to acoustics meaning no one is going to think machine
built is better. At least I don't think so....but I've been wrong
about other things.

[Mikey]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 06:37:07 +1000, "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

CNC is great if you have a lot of production or complex geometry (ie
compound angles and/or curves). I myself would prefer precision hand
made though. I have seen Coppola Guitars do some craftmanship that
would be a PITA if it had to be set up on a machine. For instance, on
his acoustics, he'll taper the last 5 or 6 frets down slightly just to
be able to lower the action to play high on the neck. I think the
artists touch is what makes a fine instrument. I know the new Gibson
machines can do this but seriously...... $4500....? And it still has
to be checked by hand afterwards.

mikey

[JimT]

What? That it's the single biggest myth? :)

[Bruce Morgen]

I think it's obvious that a
good deal of what goes into
making a guitar is done by
hand, regardless of where
that work is done or how
much the guitar costs at
retail -- but maybe I'm
giving too much credit to
the buying public.

[Tony Done]

"WB" wrote in message news:4f2b268e$0$15346$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...

*****************

The point, as I implied elsewhere is that is that the musical bits of an
electric guitar are mostly about the electronics. The wood components
contribute comparatively little within reasonable limits, so all you get for
your big $ are mojo or something that looks particularly nice, you get very
little in the way of tonal or feel benefit.

Tony D

[Tony Done]

"Mikey" wrote in message news:6q8mi7dfkq7mflsdi...@4ax.com...

******************

Sure you might prefer it, and so would I, but the reasons have absolutely
nothing to do with functional value as a musical instrument.

I reckon it would be very easy with a CNC machine to taper the fretboard if
you want the higher frets to be further from the strings, but I reckon if
Coppola has to do that with the frets on his acoustics he needs to alter his
neck angles.

Tony D

[Mikey]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:36:25 +1000, "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>
>

Ok. Here's a theory. Sitting in your living room with no one home....
pick up the electric and play some "stuff". If after 15 minutes the
guitar sounds good enough to not make you have to plug it in.... then
it's a nice guitar. That's the wood not the electrons......
The combination of the strings and wood produce a resonance that i
believe is only amplified by the pickups. Place the switch on treble
pickup and tap it. Crappy guitar "unpluged".... loud crappy guitar
thru an amp..... :)

[Mikey]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:42:05 +1000, "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

That's thoughtful of you. I'll tell him.
Actually the action on the acoustic i have plays like an electric
neck. No need to tamper with it.

[Tony Done]

"Mikey" wrote in message news:2himi79bcb483sog8...@4ax.com...

*****************

That's very true IMO, and guitars do vary in their plugged and unplugged
tones, but I'm arguing that it isn't much related to price. - I mentioned
in my reply to Ed that my best sounding electric is a real cheapo with good
pickups added, though in fact it still sounds goods with indifferent
pickups. I have no argument with buying expensive guitars for looks or mojo
(been there, done that), just that it has almost nothing to do with tone,
feel or even utility of workmanship these days.

Tony D

[Les Cargill]

This is particularly complicated by "indifferent" pickups frequently
being 5k wonders - underwound compared to a 20k humbucker. A lot
of those will have more complexity than "hot" pickups.

The drastically cheap P90s on that Epiphone Special I bought are
pretty warm - 9k - and they're just fine.

> I have no argument with buying expensive
> guitars for looks or mojo (been there, done that), just that it has
> almost nothing to do with tone, feel or even utility of workmanship
> these days.
>
> Tony D
>

--
Les Cargill

[Mikey]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:04:56 +1000, "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>
>

> I have no argument with buying expensive guitars for looks or mojo
>(been there, done that), just that it has almost nothing to do with tone,
>feel or even utility of workmanship these days.
>
>Tony D

I would definately agree.
I referenced the Gibson machine. This is an excrept from the 2008 LP
Standard page:

Revolutionary Plek Set Up

The 2008 Les Paul Standard is one of the first models from Gibson USA
to utilize the revolutionary Plek machine in setting up the guitar.
The Plek is a German-made, computer controlled machine that carefully
measures each fret, along with the fingerboard height under each
string, and then automatically dresses each fret, virtually
eliminating string buzz and greatly improving the overall playability
of the guitar. This pioneering process does in minutes what it takes a
luthier several hours—sometimes even days—to accomplish. Every fret is
accurately aligned, and the guitar is properly intonated, leaving the
instrument “Plek’d” and amazingly playable.

Interesting device. A Luthier robot......

mikey

[Tony Done]

On Feb 3, 1:17 pm, Mikey <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:04:56 +1000, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com>

<g> It's a CNC machine, I bet the Chinese are buying them as we write.

Tony D

[Tony Done]

"Mikey" wrote in message news:89jmi7hrvac63n4u0...@4ax.com...

********************

Please do. I think it is probably normal practice among luthiers if they
find that the fretboard extension is a bit elevated - not uncommon - but it
*could* be addressed by raising the neck angle or removing some timber from
the fretboard extension rather than as a fix at the fret levelling stage,
which seems like a second rate approach to me. In fact, I just fixed the
elevated fretboard extension on my tricone by removing some of the fretboard
thickness before putting in the new frets, and as a consequence I didn't
have to take any extra off the fretboard extension crowns. The action is
currently at 1.4 mm, but could go a good deal lower.

Tony D

[the_cat]

On Feb 2, 9:04 pm, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> "Mikey"  wrote in messagenews:2himi79bcb483sog8...@4ax.com...
>
> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:36:25 +1000, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com>

> Tony D- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So what nice electric guitars do you have ? I'll trade you a very good
condition 20yr old Black Squire Strat I bough new for $120.00 and I'll
put in what ever pickups you want as part of the deal!!! e

[Mikey]

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:47:00 +1000, "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>
>

>That's thoughtful of you. I'll tell him.
>Actually the action on the acoustic i have plays like an electric
>neck. No need to tamper with it.
>
>********************
>
>Please do. I think it is probably normal practice among luthiers if they
>find that the fretboard extension is a bit elevated - not uncommon - but it
>*could* be addressed by raising the neck angle or removing some timber from
>the fretboard extension rather than as a fix at the fret levelling stage,
>which seems like a second rate approach to me.

That is what he did. He is quite aware of fretboard angle and has
explained that to me. He doesn't believe in shims and "press fits" all
his necks. His philosophy is to design and incorporate the geometry
during the crafting stage as he has built many of them already. Not
fudged it afterward. But this isn't something he does as a standard.
The fret board is actually something you've probably never worked
with, "Ipe", which i requested as an experiment. Not recommended for
everyone. This was not for the lack of rosewood as he has a healthy
supply of Brazilian AAA. The Ipe is extremely hard and tough and
experimenting with a set of bone nuts and bridges have had the action
as low as .047" with some "buzz" (.02 at the nut). It will actually
dull your cutting tools. I settled for .062" at the 15th fret.

>In fact, I just fixed the
>elevated fretboard extension on my tricone by removing some of the fretboard
>thickness before putting in the new frets, and as a consequence I didn't
>have to take any extra off the fretboard extension crowns.

He believes that "recrowning" the frets on a new guitar means the
guitar has flawed construction. Some of his techniques come from a set
of "Benedetto" blueprints and journals he has, and multiple visits to
the Martin factory which is nearby.

>The action is currently at 1.4 mm, but could go a good deal lower.
>
>Tony D

Are you using Google groups or an actual news reader? Your "quotes"
come out funny on my reader.

mikey

[jtees4]

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:54:53 -0500, Mikey <mi...@eminentdomain.net>
wrote:

Not my experience at all. I used to believe this, but no more. I had
an '83 Carvin DC100....all 100% solid maple guitar except for the
ebony board. Had near ZERO resonance...so most would consider that a
bad thing. Also heavy as hell. The point is....that guitar sounded
fantastic when it was electrified and had everlasting sustain. That is
why from time to time I will make mention of how more resonance equals
less sustain. People argue with me...and then someone much smarter
than me will come along and back up my assertion with scientific
facts. Only sold it because I had back problems at the time and
couldn't deal with the weight.

[Mikey]

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:18:52 -0600, Les Cargill
<lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:


>
>This is particularly complicated by "indifferent" pickups frequently
>being 5k wonders - underwound compared to a 20k humbucker. A lot
>of those will have more complexity than "hot" pickups.
>
>The drastically cheap P90s on that Epiphone Special I bought are
>pretty warm - 9k - and they're just fine.
>

Sounds like you got a "Choice" instrument, Les. I cannot get over what
a nice axe this 1960 Re-issue Epiphone is. But when you find one of
these, as Tony says.... is no reflection of perceived value.
But while you're here...... you asked awhile back about the Behringer
X2442USB Mixer's USB connection. As you probably guessed, it is merely
a stereo WDM in/ out and shows as a sound device in the windows
control panel. I am using the 1010lt as it seems i can only select one
device at a time, being the mAudio, Realtek, or SPDIF. I guess you'll
have to go the Allen & Heath ZED-R16 route when you win the lottery or
get that inheritance from a relative.

mikey

[Mikey]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:03 -0500, jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:54:53 -0500, Mikey <mi...@eminentdomain.net>
>wrote:
>

>>

>>Ok. Here's a theory. Sitting in your living room with no one home....
>>pick up the electric and play some "stuff". If after 15 minutes the
>>guitar sounds good enough to not make you have to plug it in.... then
>>it's a nice guitar. That's the wood not the electrons......
>>The combination of the strings and wood produce a resonance that i
>>believe is only amplified by the pickups. Place the switch on treble
>>pickup and tap it. Crappy guitar "unpluged".... loud crappy guitar
>>thru an amp..... :)
>
>
>Not my experience at all. I used to believe this, but no more. I had
>an '83 Carvin DC100....all 100% solid maple guitar except for the
>ebony board. Had near ZERO resonance...so most would consider that a
>bad thing. Also heavy as hell. The point is....that guitar sounded
>fantastic when it was electrified and had everlasting sustain. That is
>why from time to time I will make mention of how more resonance equals
>less sustain. People argue with me...and then someone much smarter
>than me will come along and back up my assertion with scientific
>facts. Only sold it because I had back problems at the time and
>couldn't deal with the weight.

I'm beginning to believe that it might just be preference. There might
be some truth to the resonance acting like noise canceling headphones
and neutralizing some of the tone. But it may depend on what you want
as the sound for that particular instrument. As my Epi LP has
Burstbuckers..... it sounds like the pickups are are acting
"microphonically" and capturing the tone of the wood. When cranked,
the note would move from the fundamental to a harmonic feedback of one
of those tones. Something i couldn't get with my Strat or
Charvel/Jackson, even with multiple change of pickups. They were much
like the lump of wood with 25" strings attached. In this case i would
think most of the "tone" result would be the product of the pickups
and the amp. I tried that and didn't like it. This Epi LP can be
played thru a stereo and still has nice tone. A good amp just
emphasizes all the "pops" and "tings" that come out of it when pluged
in....
Again, I'm beginning to believe that it might just be preference.

mikey

[notbob]

On 2012-02-03, WB <w...@aasas.com> wrote:

> But a magnet, a pot, 25 inches of a fretboard ... yeah .. still a lump
> of wood.

If there was ever any doubt......

http://gear-vault.com/les-paul-log-guitar-1939-birth-les-paul/

nb

--
Fight internet CENSORSHIP - Fight SOPA-PIPA
Contact your congressman and/or representative, now!
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
vi --the heart of evil!

[DeeAa]

Yeah of course the guitar materials do have an impact...no question
about it. Just that the percentages for the effects on tone are
usually very small.
I find the neck is by far the most important for the sound of the
guitar in the small part it can be affected by materials etc.

I don't believe in tone woods etc, but crap is crap, and if you have
something that nicely reinforces some harmonic aspects of the sound,
it will sound in the finished, amped sound as well.
It could be most anything, though...you could build a guitar out of
selected, best possible tone woods and it might sound dead anyway, for
some small reason. However, when it works, it works..could be a cheap
maple neck Squier that sounds great just because it just happens to
resonate right with the pickup or whatever.

Here's a rough graph I did to illustrate what IMO affects an
electric's sound the most:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Md7O2sXlemI/TypH-3maDxI/AAAAAAAAEpw/tsrd2W7MGOk/s800/soundfactors.jpg

See if you agree to what extent with that assesment? :-)

Cheers,

Dee

[Grip]

> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Md7O2sXlemI/TypH-3maDxI/AAAAAAAAEp...

>
> See if you agree to what extent with that assesment? :-)
>
> Cheers,
>

> Dee- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I like that! Saving and sharing!

[Grip]

> put in what ever pickups you want as part of the deal!!! e- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Keep that old squier, I have a couple, 83 and about a 90. Great
playing guitars, especially the 83

[the_cat]

> playing guitars, especially the 83- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

yeah it is a nice player - might be an 83 actually , can't remeber
exactly..
But I'd trade it in a heart beat for a Fireglow Ricky 360 12 ( I'm
jonesing for one theses days..) e

[Les Cargill]

Mikey wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:18:52 -0600, Les Cargill
> <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> This is particularly complicated by "indifferent" pickups frequently
>> being 5k wonders - underwound compared to a 20k humbucker. A lot
>> of those will have more complexity than "hot" pickups.
>>
>> The drastically cheap P90s on that Epiphone Special I bought are
>> pretty warm - 9k - and they're just fine.
>>
>
> Sounds like you got a "Choice" instrument, Les.

I am sure there is something wrong with it, but I
bought it for the things it does well.

> I cannot get over what
> a nice axe this 1960 Re-issue Epiphone is. But when you find one of
> these, as Tony says.... is no reflection of perceived value.
> But while you're here...... you asked awhile back about the Behringer
> X2442USB Mixer's USB connection. As you probably guessed, it is merely
> a stereo WDM in/ out and shows as a sound device in the windows
> control panel. I am using the 1010lt as it seems i can only select one
> device at a time, being the mAudio, Realtek, or SPDIF. I guess you'll

> have to go the Allen& Heath ZED-R16 route when you win the lottery or

> get that inheritance from a relative.
>
> mikey

Dunno -- I'll get a ZED only after I can no longer figure out something
to use for a "Lightpipe" enabled mixer. Haven't done it yet, but I
bet you can use a big Behringer mixer and an ADA8000 ( Lightpipe
D/A-A/D pair in one box ) to do what the Zed does - the ZED is just a
schweet mixer.

For now, you can find Fostex VF-16 and VF160 on Craigslist pretty
steadily.

And supposedly Thunderbolt and USB3.0 are coming.

--
Les Cargill

[Tony Done]

"Mikey" wrote in message news:panni7dubqib1dddc...@4ax.com...

*****************

I think we're on the same wavelength re action set up. 1mm is about 0.04" ,
so your action is very low at 1.2 mm. I might be able to get that on my
tricone but it would be too low for the way I play, which includes slide.

I'm using Window Live Mail in Windows 7, and one of its problems is the one
you can see here. There are apparently some fixes, but I haven't tried them
so far, I'm using a line of asterisks as a separator when I remember.

Tony D

[Tony Done]

"jtees4" wrote in message
news:jhrni7lorl7721g55...@4ax.com...

*********************

The guitar might have had very good resonance but too faint to hear.
Loudness inevitably means loss of sustain (think banjo), so a very quiet
guitar might have very good sustain and good tone - if you could hear it.
Quiet doesn't always mean good sustain, because the energy could just be
absorbed in the body of the guitar and lost as heat, and this is the thing
we all want to avoid. However, all else being equal, anything that comes out
as sound is being lost from the system, so sustain will be reduced.

Tony D

[Mikey]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:01:12 -0600, Les Cargill
<lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:


>
>I am sure there is something wrong with it, but I
>bought it for the things it does well.
>

I'm curious .....what could be wrong with it? Well anyway.... Sunday i
took the Epi to a place called Pattenburg. This was a good chance to
check it out....unrehearsed. The band there let me and Johnny sit in
....and at the risk of further damaging my career (LOL) i posted a
blues clip for your enjoyment:

http://www.tridentguitar.com/video/Pattenburg.htm

mikey

[Tony Done]

On Feb 3, 5:58 am, the_cat <esham...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 1:41 pm, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Tony Done"  wrote in messagenews:jgeo6g$1fo$1...@dont-email.me...
> > "the_cat"  wrote in message
>
> >news:1f359111-afe8-4d78...@og8g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Feb 2, 12:53 am, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Grip"  wrote in message
>
> > >news:fec26cf7-0921-419e...@z31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...

>
> > > Makes no difference to me, just came accross this while watching blues
> > > deluxe demos.....
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah20CV0vYX4&feature=related
>

> > > ****************

>
> > > <g> Can you find one that addresses the proposition that an electric
> > > guitar
> > > is just a fancy lump of wood that holds the pickups that drives the amp?
>

> > > Tony D
>
> > I doubt it - you are wrong..try a Strat and LesPaul even
> > unplugged....no difference ?? . meow..
>
> > ******************
>
> > Sure, but between a $150 and a $5000 strat? And don't you think that the
> > acoustic differences between timbers can be compensated to a large extent,
> > if not entirely, by the electronic chain and other hardware?
>
> > Tony D
>
> > ****************
>
> > My best sounding electric guitar by a long streak is a super cheapo OLP bari
> > that is a knockoff off of a Music Man, using 10-46 strings to open D
> > tuning. - But I did put better pickups in it.

>
> > Tony D- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>

> No I don't think so - My Strat doesn't sound like my LP and my HH tele
> doesn't sound like either. And unless its overdriiven to the max you
> can tell the difference.and messing with amp and efx does change
> that.. But something you are totally missing is the FEEL in your hand,
> and the feel of the frets... but if all you do is play slide that may
> not matter as much... a 2x4 with pickups ???  My Toyota Yaris will get
> me to work, but I like my Jaguar XK8 better... so $150 vs $5k for a
> guitar..... I sure as hell could tell the difference ,, how much a
> difference is worth it?? really depends on how important it is to you
> and how much $$ ya got.( and your wife will O.K.!!..) meow..

This didn't appear on my news reader, but I just found it on GG.

As I said elsewhere, I think that there are differences in electric
guitar acoustic tone, but they don't relate to price. If you had the
same hardware and identical pickups in your HH tele and your LP, how
different do you think they would sound? "Feel" is just as good these
days on Chinese cheapos as it is on MIAs, thanks to CNC machining, and
you can always spend a small fraction of the money you have saved on a
fret clean up if the ends are a bit sharp. You might feel better
playing a $4000 guitar than you do a $400 job, but I reckon that is
about mojo, not real differences in utility. In a blind test I don't
think that you or anyone else could tell the difference in price
between an expensive guitar and a well-modded cheapo.

You fondness for Jags is fine, a lot of folks like fancy cars, but
again I think it is about mojo, status or possibly penises, not about
performance if you are obeying the traffic laws. Do you really need to
get away that bit faster off the lights, and it is worth another
$50,000? I drive a 29 year old low-performance junk heap that has had
a total capital cost (including purchase) of Oz$4500 over the 12 or so
years I have owned it, but because I drive it to its safe limits, I
get through the urban traffic just fine. Same deal when I lived in
Northern Oz, I drove a SWB Landcruiser for over 12 years that I had
bought secondhand, because it did the job. I only sold it because I
moved overseas, and got more for it than I paid in the first place.

Tony D

[jtees4]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 17:53:22 -0500, Mikey <mi...@eminentdomain.net>
wrote:

Nice work...looked like fun!

[jtees4]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 06:10:32 +1000, "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com>

I've never heard it explained that way but it makes sense...especially
the part "Quiet doesn't always mean good sustain". Makes sense.

[Mikey]

Beer and sandwich was good. It was their amps. Don't even know what
brand. But it's funny.... i adjust the knobs then they're readjusting
them. The joy of jamming with people you just met.... in front of
fokes....

[the_cat]

Seems you just don't understand/appeciate the finer things in life..
You don't think they chamber a Les Paul any old way just to save
weight do you?.. They spend lots of time figuring it out..& yes I've
done a side by side with my band mate -> unchambered vs chambered LP's
( while not identical guitars in every respect) - yes you can hear a
difference, and they react differently to volume. as for cars, well
yeah they both get you there, and you don't need to speed to appeciate
the difference or other imaginary needsy . You can drive a rust bucket
if you want, why bother even washing it it still runs... As with many
things - we make choices for diff. reasons.. How boring if there was
only 1 of each to do whatever.. "hey it works thats all we need" . e

[Tony Done]

****************

I still can't see this in my news readers. Any idea why that might be?

<g> Well, I never have washed the car, it has a film of green algae
over the bonnet. My main concern is that it might attract the
unwelcome attention of the traffic cops. I do appreciate some of the
finer things in life, but that most certainly doesn't include cars,
which I regard as a necessary evil and an expensive liability.

Re chambering, I agree that chambering could make a difference to
tone, but how would a Chinese copy compare with the real thing? And,
with carefully chosen hardware, which might we prefer in a blind test?

Tony D

[the_cat]

Car are fun. My first was 63 xke coupe bought used for $900 drove it
for 300,000 mile before we parted , got $7k for it.. doesn't really
sound expensive per mile ....

If you can believe chambering matters, then body mass is next in line
with bolt on vs through the neck etc. etc. just depends how picky you
are and what you are willing to pay..( and we haven't even started on
Feel and Artistic things. ) e

[Tony Done]

Oh, I can understand others being interested in cars as a hobby, just
as I'm interested in tinkering with guitars, but that isn't about
functionality.

All sorts of things might well make a difference toacoustic tone, I'm
not debating that, I'm arguing about the difference between cheap and
expensive, handmade v CNC etc. - And that small differences will be
overwhelmed by other factors like hardware and pickup/amplification
chain. I don't believe literally in the "fancy lump of wood" thing,
but it does emphasise how low down the importance scale I put price as
contributing factor in guitar performance.

Tony D

[grinner]

"Mikey" <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote in message
news:b6kmi75fgqjoutan4...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:04:56 +1000, "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I have no argument with buying expensive guitars for looks or mojo
>>(been there, done that), just that it has almost nothing to do with tone,
>>feel or even utility of workmanship these days.
>>
>>Tony D
>
> I would definately agree.
> I referenced the Gibson machine. This is an excrept from the 2008 LP
> Standard page:
>
> Revolutionary Plek Set Up
>
> The 2008 Les Paul Standard is one of the first models from Gibson USA
> to utilize the revolutionary Plek machine in setting up the guitar.
> The Plek is a German-made, computer controlled machine that carefully
> measures each fret, along with the fingerboard height under each
> string, and then automatically dresses each fret, virtually
> eliminating string buzz and greatly improving the overall playability
> of the guitar. This pioneering process does in minutes what it takes a

> luthier several hours-sometimes even days-to accomplish. Every fret is

> accurately aligned, and the guitar is properly intonated, leaving the
> instrument "Plek'd" and amazingly playable.
>
> Interesting device. A Luthier robot......
>
> mikey

yeah, but it is all done with the neck vertical and not perpendicular, as it
is played. last nut i asked about pleking tried to talk me into playing 12s.

[grinner]

"WB" <w...@aasas.com> wrote in message

news:4f2b268e$0$15346$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
> On 2/2/2012 12:53 AM, Tony Done wrote:
>>
>
>>

>> <g> Can you find one that addresses the proposition that an electric
>> guitar is just a fancy lump of wood that holds the pickups that drives
>> the amp?
>>
>>

> ummm considering they are still made essentially with the
> same materials since 1930's ... whatz your point ? I say old
> models at least have some mojo and uniqueness among them, a compared
> to cookie cutter stamped out models.
>
> But a magnet, a pot, 25 inches of a fretboard ... yeah .. still a lump of
> wood.
>

yeah but there will be more and less deisrable and collectible lumps of wood
sought from this era in 20 years time just as there are from the 50s 60s
etc. some of the re-issues cookie cuts fender and gibson have pumped out,
and in limited numbers, already have collectible stamped all over them (not
literally).

[jtees4]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 23:00:32 +1100, "grinner" <gri...@nowhere.com>
wrote:

Not literally...but now that you mention it....if they would literally
stamp "collectible" they could save us all some grief later on ;-)

[Mikey]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:56:09 +1100, "grinner" <gri...@nowhere.com>
wrote:

It states, "computer controlled machine that carefully

measures each fret, along with the fingerboard height under each

string, and then automatically dresses each fret".
My 1st guitar as a kid was a Gibson SG. 2 frets actually came loose
and the neck was slightly twisted. The machine would have problems
with that, i'd assume.
.012's would make the guitar more stable...but i can't play .012's.
The machine fixtures must be properly supported making, "vertical or
horizonal", a none issue in a technical sense... but maybe not so in
the practical application (playing it). As Jimi would say, "Who
Knows"... I'd like to know what instuments go thru this process and
which ones don't. Probably the $4500 ones.

mikey

[the_cat]

One of my cheapest electrics is perhaps my best quality and player.
Korean FMT HH Tele.. E

[Mikey]

I noticed while shopping for the Epi LP that there was a marked
difference between, Tribute, Limited Edition and ...."Re-issue". Some
of the Re-issue hardware are not inter-changable with the Epiphone
guitars and more closely resemble the actual "vintage" instrument.
These terms are used so often that it tends to render them
meaningless.

mikey

[RichL]

"Mikey" <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote in message

news:mkovi7phh9vvmh5m9...@4ax.com...

A guitar tech that I've used, located in Baltimore (US), has a Plek. I've
had him use it in connection with two refret jobs. As he explains it, you
can't simply slap a guitar in and expect good results. The knowledge and
experience of the tech comes into play; that knowledge is needed to properly
interpret results of, e.g., a profile of neck flatness that the Plek
executes before attempting to "fix" anything. Also, things like loose frets
are dealt with by the tech *before* the guitar is "Plek'd."

In both cases where I have experience with this, the necks of the guitars
were in horrible shape. After the old frets were removed, the Plek mapped
out the profile, which the tech used to help in planing away a lot of the
fretboard material by hand before new frets were installed. At the time I
had this done (3 or 4 years ago), there weren't many techs in the US who had
the machines. It's a pretty expensive initial outlay, and you need a lot of
business to justify the expenditure.

[Mikey]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:21:49 -0500, "RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com>

wrote:

>"Mikey" <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote in message

>news:mkovi7phh9vvmh5m9...@4ax.com...

It sounds like the machine can produce small "offset" corrections to
the intonation maybe by dressing the crowns to a baseline. Would this
be correct? It can align each fret with each other....but establishes
a "mean average" for the fret height to fingerboard surface and is
capable of producing an inspection report? No? How much did it cost
you?

mikey

[the_cat]

On Feb 6, 9:21 am, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Mikey" <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote in message
>

> news:mkovi7phh9vvmh5m9...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:56:09 +1100, "grinner" <grin...@nowhere.com>

> > wrote:
>
> >>"Mikey" <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote in message
> >>news:b6kmi75fgqjoutan4...@4ax.com...

> >>> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:04:56 +1000, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com>

> business to justify the expenditure.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

The teaser... now the questions:
What guitars did you have done?
Did you think they were "Good" before you took them in?
What was done to each?
How much $$?
And the results.... better that you could image ? just good?
reccomended ??? thanks - e

[RichL]

"Mikey" <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote in message

news:t0uvi7hsbsu5ltqei...@4ax.com...

I watched part of the initial operation -- where the Plek scanned the neck,
and then later after the frets were installed, checking that they were
properly leveled. The in-between part, where the frets are installed,
leveled, and crowned, were parts I missed, so I don't have all the details
there.

The tech I used charges $160 for a full Plek leveling and setup, and $300
for a Plek-based refret.

[the_cat]

On Feb 6, 12:10 pm, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Mikey" <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote in message
>
> news:t0uvi7hsbsu5ltqei...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>

> > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:21:49 -0500, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com>

> for a Plek-based refret.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Not to bad a price.. the results?? Major difference for before? You
love it?

[Mikey]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:10:21 -0500, "RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>>
>> It sounds like the machine can produce small "offset" corrections to
>> the intonation maybe by dressing the crowns to a baseline. Would this
>> be correct? It can align each fret with each other....but establishes
>> a "mean average" for the fret height to fingerboard surface and is
>> capable of producing an inspection report? No? How much did it cost
>> you?
>
>I watched part of the initial operation -- where the Plek scanned the neck,
>and then later after the frets were installed, checking that they were
>properly leveled. The in-between part, where the frets are installed,
>leveled, and crowned, were parts I missed, so I don't have all the details
>there.
>
>The tech I used charges $160 for a full Plek leveling and setup, and $300
>for a Plek-based refret.

That's reasonable. I would feel good about the instrument after having
that done.... even if i still had to tweak it afterward.

mikey

[Twibil]

On Feb 6, 7:21 am, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> In both cases where I have experience with this, the necks of the guitars
> were in horrible shape.  After the old frets were removed, the Plek mapped
> out the profile, which the tech used to help in planing away a lot of the
> fretboard material by hand before new frets were installed.  At the time I
> had this done (3 or 4 years ago), there weren't many techs in the US who had
> the machines.  It's a pretty expensive initial outlay, and you need a lot of
> business to justify the expenditure.

Besides which, you can get exactly the same results by using a high-
quality 24" steel straight-edge and a good bright worklight to show
you the fingerboard's profile.

High-tech isn't automatically better.

~Pete

[Nil]

On 06 Feb 2012, "RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.guitar:

> The tech I used charges $160 for a full Plek leveling and setup,
> and $300 for a Plek-based refret.

That doesn't sound unreasonable. Do you know if this guy would work on
a guitar shipped to him? One of my guitars, my Yamaha SG-2000, needs a
re-fret and I'm starting to look around for someone to do it in the
next few months. I don't know anybody around here that I like to do
that kind of work.

[RichL]

"Nil" <redn...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9FF1C6E0...@127.0.0.1...

I know he works on guitars shipped to him. He's a great tech but in my view
a lousy businessman, which is why I'm still looking for a regular tech. But
for a re-fret, I'd probably go back to him, especially if I wasn't in a
great hurry to get the guitar back.

Drop me an e-mail if you like (I'd e-mail you except that I know you
switched providers not too long ago but I'm not sure which one you have
now), and I'll fill you in.

[RichL]

"the_cat" <esha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:48207498-c156-4a6b...@t8g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

Yes, major difference, but as I said before, both guitars' necks were in bad
shape to begin with. The SG had a huge divot on the neck between about
frets 12 and 15 (I bought it that way, which is why I got it so cheap), and
the Brian May replica had a few dings along its ebony fretboard, and I
wanted a flatter neck radius (it was about 7.5", had it converted to 10").
The Plek was definitely worth it given the other major work involved, but it
might be overkill for a standard setup where the neck doesn't have major
issues.

[RichL]

"Twibil" <noway...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:922f228c-ef06-42aa...@i18g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...

Based on what I saw, I dispute this, simply in terms of available
resolution, both up/down/across the neck and depth-wise. One of the guitars
I had done involved converting an ebony fretboard that had a 7.5" neck
radius to 10", and as you know probably much better than I, working with
ebony can be touchy. I don't have enough knowledge to be able to say
whether the same results would have been achieved without the Plek, but I
can only judge by the results: those two guitars are now my best judged in
terms of ease and smoothness of bending strings.

[RichL]

"the_cat" <esha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:0dc0fbc1-fc56-4154...@f14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

Repeating answers -- just to have everything in one place...

> The teaser... now the questions:
> What guitars did you have done?

1966 Gibson SG and a mid-90s Burns Brian May replica.

> Did you think they were "Good" before you took them in?

Nope, not at all. The SG was in horrible shape, just about unplayable, and
the Brian May copy had a 7.5" neck radius which, given the guitar's
architecture, resulted in me "fretting out" on bends high up on the neck.

> What was done to each?

SG: A previous headstock repair was done (before I bought it) improperly,
and there was a large divot on the fretboard on the treble side between
about frets 12 and 15. I simply couldn't play notes there on the non-wound
strings. Frets were also dinged up badly. I had only paid about $300 for
the guitar because it was in such bad shape. On top of everything else, a
previous owner had done a really crappy paint job. I could grab hold of the
headstock and wiggle it easily. So the tech removed the old frets, fixed
the headstock, and filled in the neck divot, then Plek'd the whole thing to
get the neck right, then refretted and re-Plek'd. I also had him replace a
16-k bridge bucker that was muddy as all getout and overwhelmed the neck
pickup with an 8-k "boutique" bucker that he had lying around (I forget the
brand, it wasn't one of the big ones).

Burns Brian May: The main thing here was reshaping the neck radius, in
addition to the refret. A lot of material was removed, ebony, which I
understand is a pain to work with. He did several Plek runs on this as he
went along. This is the one where I watched a lot of what was going on,
because at the same time he was doing this, he was working on other guitars
that needed (non-Plek) setups.

> How much $$?

Total cost: for the SG: $360, including $60 for the pickup.

Total cost for the Brian May replica: $300.

> And the results.... better that you could image ? just good?
> reccomended ??? thanks - e

For those guitars, it was night and day. Now they're the easiest playing
guitars I own. But keep in mind they were just about unplayable before the
work. I wouldn't pay the extra cash for the Plek for a standard setup on a
guitar that's gone just a little out of whack, and the luthier I use doesn't
recommend the Plek for routine work, either.

[Tony Done]

"Twibil" wrote in message
news:922f228c-ef06-42aa...@i18g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...

****************

I've been wondering the same thing, together with the use of a good file
(diamond on a hard heavy back) for leveling the frets.

Rich, I've just leveled a badly warped (about 1 mm out at the hump) ebony
board, and I can see how a machine could have made that a much easier - it
was a lot of cut and try with a straight edge - but for leveling frets I'm
not convinced it would have any advantage. In my example, the fret leveling
was quick and easy after I had the board right - using a diamond files for
both levelling and crowning. The files made a huge difference after having
used the old steel kind in the past. FWIW, Frank Ford, one of the masters of
acoustic guitar repair, uses a wood plane with abrasive paper stuck on the
sole for fret levelling, and IIRC ordinary metalworkers files for crowning
and end finishing. Maybe these gadgets are a substitute for craftmanship, or
perhaps time savers - though I think the latter is unlikely.

Tony D

[Tony Done]

"DeeAa" wrote in message
news:16ec658d-3e30-4177...@v14g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...

On Feb 3, 5:16 pm, Mikey <mi...@eminentdomain.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:03 -0500, jtees4 <jte...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:54:53 -0500, Mikey <mi...@eminentdomain.net>
> >wrote:
>

> >>Ok. Here's a theory. Sitting in your living room with no one home....
> >>pick up the electric and play some "stuff". If after 15 minutes the
> >>guitar sounds good enough to not make you have to plug it in.... then
> >>it's a nice guitar. That's the wood not the electrons......
> >>The combination of the strings and wood produce a resonance that i
> >>believe is only amplified by the pickups. Place the switch on treble
> >>pickup and tap it. Crappy guitar "unpluged".... loud crappy guitar
> >>thru an amp..... :)
>
> >Not my experience at all. I used to believe this, but no more. I had
> >an '83 Carvin DC100....all 100% solid maple guitar except for the
> >ebony board. Had near ZERO resonance...so most would consider that a
> >bad thing. Also heavy as hell. The point is....that guitar sounded
> >fantastic when it was electrified and had everlasting sustain. That is
> >why from time to time I will make mention of how more resonance equals
> >less sustain. People argue with me...and then someone much smarter
> >than me will come along and back up my assertion with scientific
> >facts. Only sold it because I had back problems at the time and
> >couldn't deal with the weight.
>

> I'm beginning to believe that it might just be preference. There might
> be some truth to the resonance acting like noise canceling headphones
> and neutralizing some of the tone. But it may depend on what you want
> as the sound for that particular instrument. As my Epi LP has
> Burstbuckers..... it sounds like the pickups are are acting
> "microphonically" and capturing the tone of the wood. When cranked,
> the note would move from the fundamental to a harmonic feedback of one
> of those tones. Something i couldn't get with my Strat or
> Charvel/Jackson, even with multiple change of pickups. They were much
> like the lump of wood with 25" strings attached. In this case i would
> think most of the "tone" result would be the product of the pickups
> and the amp. I tried that and didn't like it. This Epi LP can be
> played thru a stereo and still has nice tone. A good amp just
> emphasizes all the "pops" and "tings" that come out of it when pluged
> in....
> Again, I'm beginning to believe that it might just be preference.
>

Yeah of course the guitar materials do have an impact...no question
about it. Just that the percentages for the effects on tone are
usually very small.
I find the neck is by far the most important for the sound of the
guitar in the small part it can be affected by materials etc.

I don't believe in tone woods etc, but crap is crap, and if you have
something that nicely reinforces some harmonic aspects of the sound,
it will sound in the finished, amped sound as well.
It could be most anything, though...you could build a guitar out of
selected, best possible tone woods and it might sound dead anyway, for
some small reason. However, when it works, it works..could be a cheap
maple neck Squier that sounds great just because it just happens to
resonate right with the pickup or whatever.

Here's a rough graph I did to illustrate what IMO affects an
electric's sound the most:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Md7O2sXlemI/TypH-3maDxI/AAAAAAAAEpw/tsrd2W7MGOk/s800/soundfactors.jpg

See if you agree to what extent with that assesment? :-)

Cheers,

Dee

**************

That is about right if confined to one kind of guitar, except I would have
added a huge slice for tone modifiers, eg FX and EQ. Also, I think playing
skill is important in audience perception, but much less so in the players
perception of tone. In the latter case, a good tone from external factors
(guitar etc) helps him make the best of his skills.

Tony D

[Twibil]

On Feb 7, 6:40 am, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> In both cases where I have experience with this, the necks of the guitars
> >> were in horrible shape.  After the old frets were removed, the Plek
> >> mapped
> >> out the profile, which the tech used to help in planing away a lot of the
> >> fretboard material by hand before new frets were installed.  At the time
> >> I
> >> had this done (3 or 4 years ago), there weren't many techs in the US who
> >> had
> >> the machines.  It's a pretty expensive initial outlay, and you need a lot
> >> of
> >> business to justify the expenditure.
>
> > Besides which, you can get exactly the same results by using a high-
> > quality 24" steel straight-edge and a good bright worklight to show
> > you the fingerboard's profile.
>
> Based on what I saw, I dispute this, simply in terms of available
> resolution, both up/down/across the neck and depth-wise.

Well, then you'd be *amazed* at what the calibrated human eyeball can
detect after it's been trained to do the job for circa 50 years.

Back when I was still building guitars, I would usually build my
fingerboards with three or four thousandths more relief on the bass
side than on the treble, and I never found this to be the least bit
difficult. So as far as I'm concerned, the Plek is an expensive
solution to a problem that wouldn't exist if your repair guy /luthier
had learned how to do the job with simple hand tools in the first
place.

This stuff isn't exactly rocket science.

~Pete

[RichL]

"Twibil" <noway...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:e66d0c60-17d8-49c7...@h3g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

He had been doing the job with simple hand tools in the first place for
quite a while. He's a good guy and highly sought after in this area (part
of my problem with him: I wait *WEEKS* to get in to see him). He's got a
BA in music, apprenticed in luthiery while doing it, then went to an
accredited luthiery school. After that, he went to work for Paul Reed Smith
for several years, and finally opened up his own shop (about 10 years ago).

The guy is good, period (from a technical standpoint). I've seen him work;
more so than any other tech I've used, he adapts what he does to my playing
style. He insists on watching new customers play so he can gauge their
technique before he does his stuff, and he never lets a customer out of the
shop before that customer is satisfied with the work. He builds his own
stuff as well (not just parts guitars).

As he explained it to me, the Plek helps him do his most difficult work
faster and more accurately. I believe he's got the knowledge and experience
to know the difference between "an expensive solution to a problem that
wouldn't exist" if he knew his stuff and a piece of equipment that will save
him time and money in the long run.

You're usually a pretty reasonable guy, but you're coming across as one of
those "get off my lawn" types in this thread. Bottom line: he's used the
Plek, gotten good results with it, and you haven't. I've seen his work,
watched him work, and I haven't seen yours.

Those old log tables worked pretty well, no reason to use those fancy-ass
slide rules (let alone calculators), is there? ;-)

[Twibil]

On Feb 7, 4:08 pm, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> You're usually a pretty reasonable guy, but you're coming across as one of
> those "get off my lawn" types in this thread.

Piffle. All I've done is state that I think that the Plek is
essentially a machine for gilding a none-too-difficult lily -while
seperating luthiers from the contents of their wallets.

I haven't claimed that your repair guy is incompetent because he uses
one, but I did claim -and will continue to claim- that the Plek
doesn't do anything that a trained human eyeball can't do.

If this causes you to picture me as Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino,
then so be it. :)

~Pete

[Lawrence Logic]

"Twibil" wrote in message
news:0c396b6d-4416-4ea4...@h6g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I think the first time I encountered the expression "Get off my lawn" was
actually here. When Walt Kowalski said it in Gran Torino, it brought quite
a smile to my face. Gran Torino is a brilliant movie and a great one for
Clint (as an actor) to finish on.

--
Lawrence
"Strike me down while you can, but it won't make your dried up ovaries any
more fertile." - Eric Cartman - 3 May 2006

[the_cat]

Having worked around robotic gadgets for a few decades - I can assure
you .. it saves time and is more consistant. Doesn't get sick,
doesn't get lazy, doesn't feel rushed, doesn't have an Off day.. etc
etc. e

[Twibil]

On Feb 8, 4:01 am, "Lawrence Logic" <lawrence-OmitThisBit-lo...@amd-

p.com> wrote:
>
>
> I think the first time I encountered the expression "Get off my lawn" was
> actually here.  When Walt Kowalski said it in Gran Torino, it brought quite
> a smile to my face.  Gran Torino is a brilliant movie and a great one for
> Clint (as an actor) to finish on.

I suspect that Clint will continue to make movies so long as he can
keep finding good material and stand upright..........and he might
fool me about that last part too.

After all; it's what he does and he still seems to be getting better
at it after all these years.

[Twibil]

On Feb 8, 6:03 am, the_cat <esham...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Having worked around robotic gadgets for a few decades - I can assure
> you .. it saves time and is more consistant.  Doesn't get sick,
> doesn't get lazy, doesn't feel rushed, doesn't have an Off day.. etc
> etc.

Congratulations! You have just told a 68-year-old luthier -who built
his first guitar when he was 16- that you know more about his trade
than he does.

One doesn't get to see that unique combination of arrogance and
stupidity very often.

[the_cat]

I was talking in general but.. . Have you have raced against a machine
for 365 days a year 24 hrs a day ? and you win every time? Do all
luthiers have your "precived skill"? I've been producing sub micron
structures for close to 40 years and it can't be done without
computers and robotics..
I'm sure you are a fine craftsman, and capable of doing a good job
if time is not an issue. but I don't beieve at 68 you eye site &
stamina is as good as a machine -
As far a arrogance goes - have you taken one of your quick I need
it tomorrow guitars after you done with it, to a Plek and see what it
finds for errors ?? That would be the test. e

[Tony Done]

"the_cat" wrote in message
news:d794cb3c-6b4d-45d6...@p13g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

*****************

Good points. I can certainly see the production line value of a CNC fret
leveller. Not so sure about "Hey can you level the frets on this before
tonight's gig?". But maybe there are narrow opportunity window situations in
the busy touring players world. Is a Plek faster than doing it well by hand?
Diamond files are very fast.

Tony D

[the_cat]

I could screw it up in a heartbeat ... ed

[Tony Done]

On Feb 3, 11:46 pm, the_cat <esham...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 9:04 pm, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Mikey"  wrote in messagenews:2himi79bcb483sog8...@4ax.com...
>
> > On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:36:25 +1000, "Tony Done" <tonyd...@bigpond.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >"WB"  wrote in message

> > >news:4f2b268e$0$15346$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net...
>
> > >On 2/2/2012 12:53 AM, Tony Done wrote:
>
> > >> <g> Can you find one that addresses the proposition that an electric
> > >> guitar is just a fancy lump of wood that holds the pickups that drives
> > >> the amp?
>
> > >ummm considering they are still made essentially with the
> > >same materials since 1930's ... whatz your point ? I say old
> > >models at least have some mojo and uniqueness among them, a compared
> > >to cookie cutter stamped out models.
>
> > >But a magnet, a pot, 25 inches of a fretboard  ... yeah .. still a lump
> > >of wood.
>

> > >*****************
>
> > >The point, as I implied elsewhere is that is that the musical bits of an
> > >electric guitar are mostly about the electronics. The wood components
> > >contribute comparatively little within reasonable limits, so all you get
> > >for
> > >your big $ are mojo or something that looks particularly nice, you get very
> > >little in the way of tonal or feel benefit.
>
> > >Tony D

>
> > Ok. Here's a theory. Sitting in your living room with no one home....
> > pick up the electric and play some "stuff". If after 15 minutes the
> > guitar sounds good enough to not make you have to plug it in.... then
> > it's a nice guitar. That's the wood not the electrons......
> > The combination of the strings and wood produce a resonance that i
> > believe is only amplified by the pickups. Place the switch on treble
> > pickup and tap it. Crappy guitar "unpluged".... loud crappy guitar
> > thru an amp..... :)
>

> > *****************
>
> > That's very true IMO, and guitars do vary in their plugged and unplugged
> > tones, but I'm arguing that it isn't much related to price. -  I mentioned
> > in my reply to Ed that my best sounding electric is a real cheapo with good
> > pickups added, though in fact it still sounds goods with indifferent
> > pickups. I have no argument with buying expensive guitars for looks or mojo

> > (been there, done that), just that it has almost nothing to do with tone,
> > feel or even utility of workmanship these days.
>

> > Tony D- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -
>

> So what nice electric guitars do you have ? I'll trade you a very good
> condition 20yr old Black Squire Strat I bough new for $120.00 and I'll
> put in what ever pickups you want as part of the deal!!! e- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

***********

I tend to judge guitars on degree of "acousticness", eg top end zing.
The three good ones are 1) the OLP bari with SD Jazz pickups, 2) a
Gibson LP Special with P100s and 3) the bitsa strat with junk body and
recently added Warmoth Pro neck; it has a Lollar Chicago pickup in the
bridge, and Ibanez Excels (modern stagger) in the other two positions.
Interesting, changing the saddles from cheap alloy to pressed steel
lead to a noticeable improvement in tone in the bitsa.

<g> I just traded in a nice little black strat (Japanese Tokai)
becuase I couldn't get on with the tight-radius neck for slide, so I
don't think your Squier would be in the running for a swap.

Tony D

[the_cat]

That Squire is pretty flat actually, not sure of the radius but it's
wider and far flatter than my 2005 MIA Strat I have it strung up 13 -
56 nice for slide or a workout ... Real nice plywood under that shinny
black paint. You can see it if you pull the covers - looks like grade
B marine plywood.. polishes up nice.. ed
ps. I'll take the LP, but i'd prefer if you could hook me up with a
ricky 360 12... e