Nut cutting.......
brianh...@googlemail.com
main questions are:
1. Is there anything sacred about bone blanks from a music shop, or
can I get bones from the pet shop?
2. What happens if I cut too deep on the final slot? Can I salvage it
with epoxy, or do I have to start again?
Paul P
I've been pleased with this source :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300281833002
When I bought mine the deal was 15$ for 5 blanks shipping included,
which made a bit more sense for a one time experience.
To avoid cutting the slots too deep you place flat feeler gauges
up against the nut which stops the file from going further than
you want.
Reasonably priced nut files are available from Warmoth. The first
nut I made I used wet-n-dry silicon sandpaper wrapped around an
appropriate feeler guage. There's a guy on ebay who sells feeler
guages with teeth cut on one side which probably work fine.
Making a nut is a lot easier than you may think. Just go slow and
think out what you're doing. Use the existing nut as a model.
There's a lot of info on the net so read up all you can.
The second nut you make will be far easier so maybe make the first
as a trial experience.
Paul P
Lumpy
Browse around at www.frets.com
More there than you ever thought there was to
know about nuts, saddles, frets etc.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Something Years
www.LumpyMusic.com
Tony Done
<brianh...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:3167202a-ba3b-4db8...@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
You can use butcher's bones I suppose, but it seems like a lot of work for a
small return if you just want a standard nut. The ones you buy ready cut are
degreased. I have used butcher bones a couple of times to make saddles and
capo bars.
I don't have proper nut slotting files (available from Stewmac and LMI), I
just use a collection of needle files, ground down hacksaw blades and oxy
torch tip cleaners. The small size tip cleaners are very flexible so I made
them into mini bow saws by clamping them in pieces of bent brazing rod.
To get slot depth right I made a stop gauge from a wedge-shaped piece of
hard steel (power hacksaw blade), though I don't always use it - lazy. I get
this the right height by shimming it with tape based on the height of the
first fret. This stops the file cutting too deep into the nut, and the wedge
shape maintains the correct slope on the slot. I get the slots exactly right
by removing layers of tape from the back of the gauge.
I repair overly deep slots by stretching white cotton thread in the bottom,
held with tape or poster putty, and flooding just the thread, not the whole
slot, with super glue. The thread ends are trimmed off when the glue sets
and the repair is invisible. This often doesn't need any further work, but
it can be filed down again if too high. This is very durable, and some of my
repairs by this method are maybe 10 years old. I wouldn't use epoxy, I don't
think it would be hard enough. If the whole nut is too low, I shim it from
the back with hard wood or plastic.
Tony D
Lumpy
> I repair overly deep slots by stretching white cotton thread in the
> bottom, held with tape or poster putty, and flooding just the thread,
> not the whole slot, with super glue. The thread ends are trimmed off
> when the glue sets and the repair is invisible. This often doesn't
> need any further work, but it can be filed down again if too high.
> This is very durable, and some of my repairs by this method are maybe
As you cut and file the nut, save the bone dust in a small vial.
Then when you need to the string/baking soda/whatever plus
cryo glue, add bone dust into the mix. With the string trick,
wet the string with accelerator, then run it through bone
dust to coat it while wet. Then proceed as you suggest
and add the CA. Kind of like JB Weld only with bone
and CA instead of steel and epoxy.
ian field
<brianh...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:3167202a-ba3b-4db8...@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
A while back I downloaded an interesting article on nut cutting,
unfortunately I have no way of backtracking to find the URL but I think the
article was published by a pickup manufacturer or supplier, there is an
article on the web if you search for it.
propman
FWIW....this torrent was posted on Piratebay a couple of days ago:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4941375/Dan_Erlewine_-_Nut_Making_Basics
....and again, FWIW, this torrent too:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4941390/Build_Your_Own_Electric_Guitar
Jack the Rippa'
Here's a link to the frets.com pages on it:
http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut1.html
It's a bit buried in the site so this should ensure you find it.
Cyberserf
1. Bone blanks are have more quality control than bones from your
butcher...there ought to be no voids in it (air pockets) and the
colour is tycapilly more uniform.
2. Yes, you can correct it, but there is no reason to go "too deep"
and if you do, blanks only cost $5...get two and do it right.
IMHO,
The best way to go about it is to remove the strings (or slacken them
and push them to the side. Having carefully removed your previous nut,
clean any glue residue from the nut seat and fron of the fingerboared
(a nut seatting file is useful here). Be careful to only go after the
high points...you don't want to change the position of the new nut.
You will need to shape the blank to fit the neck width. Use a file and
lots of patience. Make it a little bit proud on each sides. Place a
drop of cyano on the bottom and press down...hold for 5 seconds).
Now take a pencil that you've cut in half (lengthwise) so that it
looks like half a pencil (I use a sander to get it down). Place the
pencil on the frets with the tip hitting the nut. Score the nut along
the length. That is the maximum depth of each string (unless you have
a zero fret in which case, it is not possible to go too deep). The
line will be slightly curved...that is your neck radius.
The "trick" to cutting a good slot is all in using the right tool. The
proper slot has a "U" shape to it with the walls of the "U" being the
same diameter as the intended string and the bottom of it being smooth
and rounded. A triangular file will make a V which binds the
string...not optimal. Other tricks such as passing strings back and
forth in a rough slot or using jewelers files and folded sandpaper
produce shelves or mushrooms both of which will be noticable when you
bend. Nut slotting files come in various thickness and only cut along
the edge. They create a perfect seat everytime. The are worth every
penny.
You can get them online at
or at
You will need to measure the string spacing carefully (or use the old
nut as a guide)...the thickness of the strings make a difference to
the spacing, so measure twice and cut once...getting this wrongs could
result in some string pairs being uncomfortably close while others are
unreasonably far apart.
You need to protect your headstock before you start to cut the slots
(masking tape...two layers). The file should be angles back towards
the headstock (the edge of the nut is the take-off point (fulcrum) for
your strings). It should also be angled towards the intended machine
head. Cut until you reach the tope of the line...you'll do some
adjusting later when you set the nut action. Use the correct slotting
file or one slightly smaller than the intended string (you can rock it
back and forth as you go in, so a .009 file can cut up to .011 or so).
You are now ready to "final shape" and polish. Protect the backl of
the neck and use a file and a small sanding block to get the wings
down flush to the side. Again use a file to get the top down. The top
should come down enough such that the wound strings will be half
buried (so the depth of a slot for a .022 string would be .011), and
unwound strings fully buried (only just). Once you get reasonably
close with the file, switch to sand paper (start with about 400 to get
rid of the file marks and stop at about 6000). I highly recommend the
micromesh system...you get progressively finer grits that are reusable
and once you get to the 6000 the bone will shine. About halfway
through your grits (say at 1500), you will need to put the strings in,
tune it to pitch and measure your nut action. For this you fret the
string at the third fret and measure the distance between the bottom
of the fretted string and the first fret. The distance you measure
should be very small (+-.001 about the tickness of a hair)...My eyes
are getting bad so I usually tap the top of the string quickly in the
hopes of hearing a slight "ting". Do this for every string and then
finish your sanding to 6000.
There...all done.
Here's a pictorial on making a new nut (including the half-pencil
trick):
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut1.html
And finally one on setting the nut action:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/SetNut/setnut.html
Regards, CS
ian field
"Jack the Rippa'" <Te...@survivormanvswild.com> wrote in message
news:h0mrb2$j26$1...@news.albasani.net...
Here's the whole index - looks pretty handy for anyone renovating a guitar:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/pagelist.html#Special
Charmed Snark
news:a08550cc-e8dd-4e04...@q2g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
> On Jun 9, 2:04�pm, brianhughe...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> ...has anyone done it, and got good results, or is it a dark art? My
>> main questions are:
>> 1. Is there anything sacred about bone blanks from a music shop, or
>> can I get bones from the pet shop?
>>
>> 2. What happens if I cut too deep on the final slot? Can I salvage it
>> with epoxy, or do I have to start again?
>
> 1. Bone blanks are have more quality control than bones from your
> butcher...there ought to be no voids in it (air pockets) and the
> colour is tycapilly more uniform.
> 2. Yes, you can correct it, but there is no reason to go "too deep"
> and if you do, blanks only cost $5...get two and do it right.
>
> IMHO,
Plus:
3. You won't have to have a tug of war with your dog over
that bone.
Snark.
one_riff_brian
LIMS show today- as it happened, Allparts were exhibiting, not
selling, but they *can* supply the blanks.
Their nut files are UK£107 for a set of 8, which puts them on my wish
list for now, but hopefully I'll get some sort of result with a razor
saw and a lot of patience....but not on one of these:
http://www.allparts.uk.com/woolly-mammoth-ivory-blank-p-2140.html?p=product
M.Butzin
http://www.allparts.uk.com/woolly-mammoth-ivory-blank-p-2140.html?p=product
Nut cutting that's GOTTA hurt...............LOL
Rufus
...hell, if ya can sit still for gettin' 'em filed, cutting 'em should
be a breeze...
--
- Rufus
Lumpy
> Thanks for the replies- I was hoping to pick up some supplies at the
> LIMS show today- as it happened, Allparts were exhibiting, not
> selling, but they *can* supply the blanks.
FWIW, I've always found Allparts and LMI blanks to
be consistantly irregular. Not square, warped etc.
Stewmac seems to have better blanks both in physical
shape and in color (their vintage bone is darker
with more streaks).
I'm not sure how Allparts USA compares with what
appears to be the same company in the UK.
Paul P
> FWIW, I've always found Allparts and LMI blanks to
> be consistantly irregular. Not square, warped etc.
> Stewmac seems to have better blanks both in physical
> shape and in color (their vintage bone is darker
> with more streaks).
I'll repeat my recommendation for 'hongkongsuperseller' on ebay.
This seller once more has 5 Gibson-style nuts for 15$US delivered :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290325365115
There are other styles available, check the seller's store. The five
I got were hard, square and consistent. They file well and take a
nice polish. It felt a bit strange ordering from Hong Kong but the
nut blanks arrived within a week or two.
Paul P
Lumpy
> I'll repeat my recommendation for 'hongkongsuperseller' on ebay.
I've had good luck with him for electronic parts.
Stuff arrives faster than some of the midwest US
guys that wait a week before they ship.
Cyberserf
wrote:
You don't need 8 until you go into business...depending on your gauge,
start with your smallest string and skip a string...so for a 10-46,
you just need a 9, 18, and 36 (though a 23 and 42 is nice too)...so
tops, five will do ya. You'll need to learn how to rock them without
mushrooming the bottom, but there is really no substitute for the real
deal...much cleaner and quicker. If you do use a saw, cut a little shy
and use a scrap string of the appropriate gauge to form the seat
(insert the string, press down hard, and move back and forth in the
slot over a few inches of string). Luck, CS
ed s
> M.Butzin wrote:
> > "one_riff_brian" <brianhughe...@googlemail.com> wrote in messagenews:dd03b871-958b-46c9...@o21g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> > Thanks for the replies- I was hoping to pick up some supplies at the
> > LIMS show today- as it happened, Allparts were exhibiting, not
> > selling, but they *can* supply the blanks.
>
> > Their nut files are UK£107 for a set of 8, which puts them on my wish
> > list for now, but hopefully I'll get some sort of result with a razor
> > saw and a lot of patience....but not on one of these:
>
>
> > Nut cutting that's GOTTA hurt...............LOL
>
> ...hell, if ya can sit still for gettin' 'em filed, cutting 'em should
> be a breeze...
>
> --
> - Rufus
Ahh yes but there is an up side. : ' ) - e
one_riff_brian
wrote:
Update: I've managed to make a "satisfactory" nut for the 6 string
neck of my Jimmy Page pose twin neck copy. My criteria for
"satisfactory" at this stage are: No buzz, no discernable movement
across the fretboard, and free movement along the string length- no
"ratcheting" on the wound strings. No discourtesy to anyone who
replied, but I did make some departures from the consensus. I started
out with a "processed bone" from the pet shop- the process, I presume,
is to clean off the biological gunge- I will be monitoring the long
term stability. I cut it roughly with a hacksaw and angle grinder, and
smoothed 2 sides at right angles with a glass plate and emery paper,
marked the positions with the old nut, superglued it in position, and
started cutting, with another, well set up guitar at my side as a
reference. I kept the strings in place and tuned up, lifting them out
one at a time. Most of the cutting got done with a razor saw, with
smoothing done with bits of old string, and for the bottom E, a bit of
emery paper wrapped round my driving licence. I *can* see why the
proper files will make a difference, but, sadly, they'll have to stay
on my wish list till I've less time and more money. I have spoken to
one bloke who claims to get good results with a steak knife......
I'm more confident gauging by touch rather than sight, and I gauged
the slot depths by fretting between the second and third frets,
rocking a feeler under the string at the first fret, and feeling for
the biting point- I'm aiming to get the nut action set in one
operation, and I've got some ideas for getting this accurate and
repeatable-stay tuned.
The way ahead- getting from "satisfactory" to "world beating"- what
are *your* additional criteria for a good nut? I'm aware of the Buzz
Feiten/Earvana/eNut next level, but intonation isn't a major issue at
this stage.
One question- what should I tell the very nice vegan animal rights
campaigner that I met at the Sierra Club? The plan that I'm working on
is to show her the link to the camel bone blanks, and explain that the
camel's dying wish to the camel whisperer was to be made into guitar
nuts, and help keep Bob Dylan's wonderful music alive.
Do you think she'd buy it?
M.B
M.B
Your Recycling and now part of that animal is making beautiful music to which you'll soon play in nature? And cutting down on plastics! Now next time you need files I be more than happy to loan you mine............
MB
Lumpy
> Update: I've managed to make a "satisfactory" nut for the 6 string
> ...superglued it in position...
Consider using something like white glue next time
instead of CA. The glue isn't really there to hold
the nut in place. It's under a hundred plus lbs of
tension from the strings holding it in place. The
glue is more like a gasket to fill the voids.
Then when you want to remove it some time down
the road, a few well placed taps will take it out.
When super glued, that attempt to remove it may
very well remove wood with it.
Other than that, sounds to me like you made it work
with tools at hand. Nothing wrong with that. Just
results in tried patience, sore fingers and in your
case, maybe a worn driver's license.
Lubricate the nut slots by running waxed dental floss
through them. If there are rough spots, the floss will
catch and let you know they need a little more polishing.
Glue old pieces of string to flat wood pieces to make
little round bottomed files. Use super glue for that.
And expect the string windings to wear out after about
one use. That brass/bronze/nickel wears a lot faster
than tool steel.
M.B
Lumpy you replied to me on this and I think you had your cursor on the wrong post............
MB
Lumpy
> Lumpy you replied to me on this and
> I think you had your cursor on
> the wrong post............
Huh???
M.B
This is what your posted.
> ...superglued it in position...
Lumpy
In response to this:
On Jun 14, 10:38 pm, one_riff_brian <brianhughe...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
<Snipped>
> http://www.allparts.uk.com/woolly-mammoth-ivory-blank-p-2140.html?p=p...
Update: I've managed to make a "satisfactory" nut for the 6 string
neck of my Jimmy Page pose twin neck copy. My criteria for
"satisfactory" at this stage are: No buzz, no discernable movement
across the fret board, and free movement along the string length- no
Lumpy
> This is what your posted.
I know what I posted. I know what you posted.
I quoted you, I commented on your post.
What is it you think I'm missing?
Cyberserf
Quite the opposite...Cyano is brittle, it will break like hide glue
rather than tear out like aliphatic (white or yellow). Moreover,
Aliphatic resins or Poly Vinyl acetates are much more prone to creep
(they bend rather than break). Breaking a Ca bond requires a sharp rap
and nothing more...it shatters... the seat is typically left smooth
and even, with very little clean up. The PVA or AR glues that you
recommend are far more likely to cause tear out (bring wood out with
it) or leave a wads of residue behind and generally make a mess of
future repairs (though it does dissolve nicely with warm water).
You are correct that the glue is not there to keep the nut down...if
it has a purpose, it is there to keep it from moving sideways when you
trem or bend the string. Indeed, many stringed instruments require
nothing at all on the nut (or bridge). IMHO, it would be preferable to
put nothing on the bottom rather than white or yellow PVA.
As far as Dental floss as an effective detection method..uhmmm...I'm
sure it would find any burrs...but why bother putting the old string
on a stick...just pass it through the slot and press down to wear the
"channel"...putting it on a stick simply restricts the depth to no
benefit.
-CS
Lumpy
> Quite the opposite...Cyano is brittle, it will break like hide glue
Not "quite the opposite" with real luthiers.
CA is what they use to fill cracks permanantly.
Or in fret slots where they can later apply
heat to the fret with a soldering iron to
break the CA bond.
Hide, AR or white glue, probably in reverse order,
is what they use in any joint that
they wish to separate later.
Violin luthiers would never use CA on a nut.
The guy in the back room at GC might.
> ...IMHO, it would be preferable to
> put nothing on the bottom rather than white or yellow PVA.
Then you'd have an air space between the bottom of
the nut and the seat of the slot in the neck. What's
"preferable" is for the most contact possible at that
joint. Glue, acting as a gasket, would/does achieve that.
If a "guitar tech" recommended NOT putting any glue in
the nut slot, I'd leave there immediately and go find
a real luthier.
> ...but why bother putting the old string
> on a stick...just pass it through the slot and press down to wear the
> "channel"...putting it on a stick simply restricts the depth to no
> benefit.
If the concept of restricting the depth, as well as
creating a straight channel, does not
appear beneficial to you, particularly in the case
of this new guy trying to cobble together tools,
then it's clear why you fit in down at
GC cranking down those tune-o-matics.
"Low as it'll go without buzzing".
Lumpy
You Played on Lawrence Welk?
Yes but no blue notes. Just blue hairs.
M.B
Lumpy the following is NOT my Post.....................Get it?
>>>>>>>M.B, didn't write this.........<<<<<<<<<<<<
M.B wrote:
> Update: I've managed to make a "satisfactory" nut for the 6 string
> neck of my Jimmy Page pose twin neck copy....
> ...superglued it in position...
____________________________________________________
This is from the OP....................................
Lumpy
Lumpy
> Lumpy the following is NOT my Post.....................Get it?
>
> > > > > > > > M.B, didn't write this.........<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> M.B wrote:
> > Update: I've managed to make a "satisfactory" nut for the 6 string
> > neck of my Jimmy Page pose twin neck copy....
>
> > ...superglued it in position...
>
> ____________________________________________________
> This is from the OP....................................
Then I'd suggest learning how to quote and attrib.
It clearly us under your name with no carats in
front of it.
Exactly which part of the post DID you write and
how are readers supposed to know which is yours?
Here's the post -
*****
M.B wrote:
> "one_riff_brian" <brianh...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:0b058157-45d0-4d9b...@g1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 14, 10:38 pm, one_riff_brian <brianhughe...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies- I was hoping to pick up some supplies at the
> > LIMS show today- as it happened, Allparts were exhibiting, not
> > selling, but they *can* supply the blanks.
> >
> > Their nut files are UK�107 for a set of 8, which puts them on my
> > wish
> > list for now, but hopefully I'll get some sort of result with a
> > razor
> > saw and a lot of patience....but not on one of these:
> >
> > http://www.allparts.uk.com/woolly-mammoth-ivory-blank-p-2140.html?p=p...
>
> Update: I've managed to make a "satisfactory" nut for the 6 string
> neck of my Jimmy Page pose twin neck copy. My criteria for
> "satisfactory" at this stage are: No buzz, no discernable movement
> across the fretboard, and free movement along the string length- no
> Do you think she'd buy it?
*****
fix that etch-A-sketch of yours so we know what you wrote.
If I do some back tracking, it looks like you simply quoted
everything the OP posted with no comments of your own. All
that and no attrib's.
All in all, pretty confusing and useless.
M.B
"one_riff_brian" <brianh...@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:0b058157-45d0-4d9b...@g1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 14, 10:38 pm, one_riff_brian <brianhughe...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> Thanks for the replies- I was hoping to pick up some supplies at the
> LIMS show today- as it happened, Allparts were exhibiting, not
> selling, but they *can* supply the blanks.
>
> Their nut files are UK£107 for a set of 8, which puts them on my wish
> list for now, but hopefully I'll get some sort of result with a razor
> saw and a lot of patience....but not on one of these:
>
> http://www.allparts.uk.com/woolly-mammoth-ivory-blank-p-2140.html?p=p...
OP:
OP's Question:
>Do you think she'd buy it?
MB post:
From: "M.B" <marc...@NOSPAM.DOT.NET>
Newsgroups: alt.guitar.beginner
References: <3167202a-ba3b-4db8...@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com> <dd03b871-958b-46c9...@o21g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <0b058157-45d0-4d9b...@g1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <0b058157-45d0-4d9b...@g1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Nut cutting.......
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:21:02 -0500
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MB Answer to OP:
Cyberserf
> Cyberserf wrote:
> > Quite the opposite...Cyano is brittle, it will break like hide glue
> > rather than tear out like aliphatic (white or yellow)...
>
> Not "quite the opposite" with real luthiers.
> CA is what they use to fill cracks permanantly.
> Or in fret slots where they can later apply
> heat to the fret with a soldering iron to
> break the CA bond.
Sure Lumpy, whatever you say...your the expert on everything. Oh...and
I see you know all the "real" luthiers in the world so you must have
it right or are you pretending to be a luthier today. Just so we
know, how many nuts did you cut for your customers last week (I did
23).
BTW, AR (Aliphatic Resin) is actually the same as PVA (PolyVinyl
Acetate)...AR is an industry term which is meaningless.
Personnaly, I use Hot Hide Glue (HHG) pretty much exclusively, I put a
pot on with the coffee every morning, but if I have to fix a nut
quickly, it's with a single drop of HotStuff (Cyano Acrylic)...I've
never ever used White (Elmers School) paper glue on any instrument in
the 30 years that I've been repairing and restoring stringed
instruments.
> Hide, AR or white glue, probably in reverse order,
> is what they use in any joint that
> they wish to separate later.
HHG for sure, followed by Titebond original (not just any
PVA...Titebond has the best creep resistance which makes a "go to"
choice)...it's yellow...the difference between the yellow and white is
with the solid content...one is for paper, the other for wood.
>
> Violin luthiers would never use CA on a nut.
> The guy in the back room at GC might.
LOL...the nut on a violin is a fixed piece of ebony...removing it is
seldom required and must be performed with some heat to soften the
glue (HHG craps out at about 150F, as does PVA)...you are not gonna
rap it off cold without causing considerable damage.You are correct
that Cyano is seldom used for this purpose, but not for any reason
other than practicality (why bother using a different glue for just
this one spot?) and perhaps a bit of tradition.
>
> > ...IMHO, it would be preferable to
> > put nothing on the bottom rather than white or yellow PVA.
>
> Then you'd have an air space between the bottom of
> the nut and the seat of the slot in the neck. What's
> "preferable" is for the most contact possible at that
> joint. Glue, acting as a gasket, would/does achieve that.
Not so...the string push down quite effectively providing more than
enough pressure for proper coupling. Indeed using PVA guarantees a bad
mechanical bond...at least cyano is viscuous enough to provide a thin
(though weak) bond...PVA makes a thick seat which is "springy"...try
drying a bit of PVA for 24 hours and squish it...Cyano doesn't do
that...it's hard and brittle (again like HHG)...the mushiness of PVA
causes a lost of coupling at one of your fulcrum points.
>
> If a "guitar tech" recommended NOT putting any glue in
> the nut slot, I'd leave there immediately and go find
> a real luthier.
It is called a nut seat (the slots are different), and IMO, putting
nothing on is far preferable then using PVA. Sorry, despite your
protest about what the rest of the luthery world is doing, I'll have
to stick to my guns on this one....I've had to clean up too many nut
seats polluted with PVA by people who listened to bad advice from
wannabe "luthiers" like you.
>
> > ...but why bother putting the old string
> > on a stick...just pass it through the slot and press down to wear the
> > "channel"...putting it on a stick simply restricts the depth to no
> > benefit.
>
> If the concept of restricting the depth, as well as
> creating a straight channel, does not
> appear beneficial to you, particularly in the case
> of this new guy trying to cobble together tools,
> then it's clear why you fit in down at
> GC cranking down those tune-o-matics.
> "Low as it'll go without buzzing".
Restricting the depth is one thing, but if you don't bring the top
down, then your string will never get to the bottom of the slot
channel...This slot must be angled back towards the headstock and
towards the machine head...Wound strings should be half buried and
unwound ones fully buried by the slot...how you gonna smooth that one
out with your string on a stick? Take it off the stick and use the
string between your thumbs and stop arguing for the sake of it.
BTW, I've never worked at GC, but I do know some very competent
technicians who have. So what's your point with that little dig...you
think you're all that and more do you? Quite the show you have
here...anyone who disagrees with the big Lump gets thrown in the GC
camp...whadda schmuck.
>
> Lumpy
>
> You Played on Lawrence Welk?
> Yes but no blue notes. Just blue hairs.
>
> www.LumpyMusic.com
Go back to playing with yourself.
-CS
Cap'n Ron
egocentric "experts" look foolish.
--
Cap'n Ron
"Cyberserf" <cybr...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:6c4c0767-7037-4462...@37g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...
Lumpy
> ...the string push down quite effectively providing more than
Why do they put gaskets in automobile engines.
> It is called a nut seat (the slots are different)...
Stewmac sells "Nut Seating Files" which
"file only the bottom of the slot".
It's a g'dam slot that's the seat for the nut.
> ... Sorry, despite your
> protest about what the rest of
> the luthery world is doing, I'll have
> to stick to my guns on this one...
As you should. I'm not a "wannabe luthier".
I've built several instruments. I've done some
work on guitars. But I don't offer my services
for hire nor advertise myself as any kind of
luthier or guitar tech. All I'm doing in this thread
is echoing the opinions of what tons of real luthiers
do and suggest.
You're certainly welcome to stick to your guns
there in the back room at GC.
Cyberserf
> Cyberserf wrote:
> > ...the string push down quite effectively providing more than
> > enough pressure for proper coupling...
>
> Why do they put gaskets in automobile engines.
>
I presume it is to kill engine vribrations and avoid leaks...is that
what you'd like to do...kill the strings vibration...do you know what
damping is?
>As you should. I'm not a "wannabe luthier".
>I've built several instruments. I've done some
>work on guitars. But I don't offer my services
>for hire nor advertise myself as any kind of
>luthier or guitar tech. All I'm doing in this thread
>is echoing the opinions of what tons of real luthiers
>do and suggest.
Tons of luthiers...really? They all use white glue on their nut
seats...interesting...and little bits of string glued to
sticks...wow...they must have alot of time on their hands.
As you should know, I am a stringed instrument technician and have
been for the past 3 decades. This is not the first time you've tried
the whole "all the luthiers on the planet do it differently than CS".
The routine is tired. I don't build them for a living, but I do repair
and restore them..it is my profession. Guitars, Basses, Violins,
Viola, Sitars and even the odd Oud. I also know "tons" of luthiers
(I'm figuring 6 to a ton, though you'll need 7 if you put Linda Manzer
in one group) and more than a few tons of technicians. To my
knowledge, none of them (not one) uses white PVA on their instruments
(neither for building nor for repairs), so forgive my correcting the
great Lumpy with his all knowing smugness.
>You're certainly welcome to stick to your guns
>there in the back room at GC.
No, mine are in a locker at home...as I stated I've never been to GC.
Of course, you seem quite familiar with their layout so you should
know all about them.
Lumpy, it has occured to me that you are the worse kind of hypocrite.
You are always quick to jump down people's throats to correct them
with your condescension, but you seem to take similar critiques rather
hard. Keep feeding people crap and they'll eventually go elsewhere to
eat...then there would be no one to watch the Lumpy show...Pity.
-CS
Lumpy
> Lumpy, it has occured to me that you are the worse kind of hypocrite.
> You are always quick to jump down people's throats to correct them
> with your condescension, but you seem to take similar critiques rather
> hard. Keep feeding people crap and they'll eventually go elsewhere to
> eat...then there would be no one to watch the Lumpy show...Pity.
Well, it would help if you'd decide if you want to
argue about nut cutting or if you have some other
fear agenda about me.
Go glue some nuts.
Cyberserf
> Cyberserf wrote:
> > Lumpy, it has occured to me that you are the worse kind of hypocrite.
> > You are always quick to jump down people's throats to correct them
> > with your condescension, but you seem to take similar critiques rather
> > hard. Keep feeding people crap and they'll eventually go elsewhere to
> > eat...then there would be no one to watch the Lumpy show...Pity.
>
> Well, it would help if you'd decide if you want to
> argue about nut cutting or if you have some other
> fear agenda about me.
'T wasn't nut cutting that we've been discussing, it was nut
seating...or more precisely which glue to use (or not use) to tack it
down. Though I'm not surprised that you keep changing gears (and
attacks)...must be hard to concentrate with the combined wisdom of a
ton of luthiers on your mind. My only fears about you is that you are
going to lead unfamiliar people (newbies to guitars, since that is the
group) down a garden path with nothing but an echo of other peoples
supposed thoughts...in effect, a bias. In reality, your credibility
would actually increase if you had the nuts to admit a mea culpa when
appropriate...as it stands, you reap what you sow.
>
> Go glue some nuts.
In the time that it took you to think of that witty retort, I did just
that...glued three more down with cyano. Unfortunately, it cost twice
as much on one (a Gretch I'd never seen before)...had to spend a good
bit of time cleaning off the old seat and had to shim the fretboard
edge (someone took a file to it and removed a full .06mm from the face
making proper intonation impossible...don't suppose you had something
to do with that didja?).
Anyway...I can't imagine having anything more to add...you obviously
have all the answers as dictated by your myriad lutherie
contact...uhm...is a ton of luthiers equivalent to a hundred monkeys
trying to type Shakespeare? Do you think they'll eventually make
another Strad? As usual, the biggest problem with having all the
answers is that you never ask any of the right questions. Must be nice
to know it all.
-CS
Lumpy
> ...In the time that it took you to
> think of that witty retort, I did just
That's wonderful.
If it works for you, and you're proud of your work,
post your real name and contact information and
where you work. Maybe you'll get some clients
out of it.
Cyberserf
LOL...I thank you for your sudden and unexpected vote of
confidence...Though I am certain that you meant it as some sarcastic
retort (Sorry Lump, but I really quetion your sincerity here...and
elsewhere...oh, Lumpy...is that your real name? Jeez...I'dda offed my
parents if they'd called me that at birth...glad you got a nickname
too Craig). I'm certain you have some twisted point to
make...uhmmm....so do I: "Consider the source"...is that the same as
yours?
In any event, given that this is the World Wide Web and there are
relatively few prospective new clients for me in this international
forum (I haven't toured internationally as a techie since 1986) and
given that I do not often take on new clients (I am honestly full up
and could not provide proper (timely) service with more than the few
hundred loyal musicians who are currently on my roster and the regular
new blood that trickles in through my door due to simple and credible
word of mouth); I honestly have nothing to gain from posting any
contact info...I think I've said this to you before...is your aluminum
level ok?
In any event, I am very proud of my work and try very hard to
communicate what I've learnt through decades of effort, trial, error
and dogged determination to anyone willing to listen....so, for your
records, my real name is John Jeremy Winston....oh look, I'm on
Soundclicks too!. Since the 1970's, I've worked in Nova Scotia, New
Brunswick, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, New York, Quebec and
Ontario. I've toured with more bands than my NDA care to admit too
(...uh...Non Disclosure Agreements...I'm sure you've signed a few in
your 40 years...mine dog me to this day). I currently work in Ottawa,
Ontario, Canada (actually I'm located in the Ottawa Valley on a 40
acre hobby farm complete with a new 600 sqf (largest I've ever had)
workshop...I currently employ zero employees...like you, everyone
seems to know it all and, as you can tell, I have little use for that
attitude).
If you need to get in touch with me, my number is with the NAC
(National Art Council)...I do maintenance and repairs on a good
portion of their stringed section...call
- CS
Lumpy
> ...Sorry Lump, but I really quetion your sincerity here...and
> elsewhere...oh, Lumpy...is that your real name?...
Yes. It's my legally registered trade name.
And my given name and address and other contact
info are posted all over the place.
> ...I'm certain you have some twisted point to
> make...uhmmm....so do I: "Consider the source"...
Consider the source, absolutely.
If you don't have the self confidence to
identify yourself, then you're just an
anonymous little voice, apparently without
the confidence to stand behind your theories.
Very inspiring.
Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke
Browne Horse Music
5526 E Pershing Ave
Scottsdale AZ 85254-3632
--
RichL
> Cyberserf wrote:
>> ...Sorry Lump, but I really quetion your sincerity here...and
>> elsewhere...oh, Lumpy...is that your real name?...
>
> Yes. It's my legally registered trade name.
> And my given name and address and other contact
> info are posted all over the place.
>
>
>> ...I'm certain you have some twisted point to
>> make...uhmmm....so do I: "Consider the source"...
>
> Consider the source, absolutely.
> If you don't have the self confidence to
> identify yourself, then you're just an
> anonymous little voice, apparently without
> the confidence to stand behind your theories.
>
> Very inspiring.
Well, since he just gave you much more identifying information than
*you* need to know, I'm guessing his self-confidence isn't a problem...
Lumpy
> Well, since he just gave you much more identifying information than
> *you* need to know, I'm guessing his self-confidence isn't a
> problem...
I don't need to know a thing about him.
But if he's proud of his work, his theories,
his opinions, he should stand up and argue
like a real human, not an anonymous nobody.
Even learnwell has the guts to do that.
Lumpy
Sean
> RichL wrote:
>
>> Well, since he just gave you much more identifying information than
>> *you* need to know, I'm guessing his self-confidence isn't a
>> problem...
>
> I don't need to know a thing about him.
> But if he's proud of his work, his theories,
> his opinions, he should stand up and argue
> like a real human, not an anonymous nobody.
>
> Even learnwell has the guts to do that.
>
Huh? He told you his name and where he lives and all sorts of other
stuff. What's the problem? Gee willickers, it almost seems like you
might be setting up strawmen to draw attention away from the fact that
he was winning the argument.
Lumpy
> Huh? He told you his name and where he lives and all sorts of other
> stuff. What's the problem? Gee willickers, it almost seems like you
> might be setting up strawmen to draw attention away from the fact that
> he was winning the argument.
You're right, he did disclose his name.
Sorry that I didn't read down further.
Arguments aren't about "winning", BTW.
They're about stating opinion.
Nobody "wins" a usenet argument.
At the end of the day, if you're considering
gluing your nut, you take all the opinions
on all sides of the question and then make
a judgement call. Which, apparently in your case,
is based on who you think "won" the argument,
rather than some more practical reasons.
Careful about letting the medium be the message.
Sean
> Sean wrote:
>> Huh? He told you his name and where he lives and all sorts of other
>> stuff. What's the problem? Gee willickers, it almost seems like you
>> might be setting up strawmen to draw attention away from the fact that
>> he was winning the argument.
>
> You're right, he did disclose his name.
> Sorry that I didn't read down further.
>
> Arguments aren't about "winning", BTW.
> They're about stating opinion.
> Nobody "wins" a usenet argument.
>
> At the end of the day, if you're considering
> gluing your nut, you take all the opinions
> on all sides of the question and then make
> a judgement call. Which, apparently in your case,
> is based on who you think "won" the argument,
> rather than some more practical reasons.
That's my definition of "winning the argument" in this case. The one who
presents the most persuasive argument, backed up with examples,
information and expertise, "wins." An argument necessarily has a certain
competitive edge to it. I mean, who would want to play tennis with an
opponent who wasn't bent on winning? It's the competition that pushes
the participants to do their best, and in the end they're grateful to
each other for having presented the challenge.
It just seemed that, in the tennis game I was observing, one of the
players began to complain that he didn't know the other player's name,
and this complaint seemed to come after the other player was bashing the
ball particularly well. From my seat in cyber-Wimbledon, I uttered,
"Huh? What does that have to do with anything?"
>
> Careful about letting the medium be the message.
Wha? Me don't get relevance of McLuhan reference. Maybe me too dumb.
one_riff_brian
drops of superglue, *but* taking the the time to shape the nut to a
good fit in the slot, and ensuring a good contact area, rather than
relying on the filling properties of adhesives. Don't forget, though,
that the nut only couples vibrations for six of the forty or so notes
available from the instrument.
Moving on, a couple of further questions- the instructions to leave
the wound strings half buried, and the plain strings completely
buried- is this just convention- hey, who wants to be conventional- or
is there any real practical reason?
Secondly, a roundabout question, but stay with me. Who likes/hates/
doesn't mind the action feel of playing with a capo? I'm assuming by
default that lower and lower nut action equals better and better,
right up until the strings start buzzing, and a capo equivalent setup
is perfection- unless I've badly missed something.
You can probably see by now why I'm still drawn towards zero frets,
and I'm currently retrofitting one to the Cheap Tweaker- stay tuned.
Uhhhhh, one thing... I'm interested in opinions, not flame wars......
Lumpy
> ... Don't forget, though,
> that the nut only couples vibrations
> for six of the forty or so notes
> available from the instrument.
I don't believe that's entirely correct.
Here's the experiment...
Set up a spectrum analyzer to read the output
of your guitar. Just grab some spec analyzer
program off the internet. Might even be able
to use the simple graphic display in Windows
Media Player or similar.
Put a capo on about the 5th fret. Strum and
pick the strings singly, together, in varying
amounts of force (volume). Note the readings.
Now, leaving the capo in place on 5th, add
another capo on one of the frets BELOW that
(frets 1-2-3 or 4). Check the readings again.
If your "meter" is sensitive enough, you'll
see higher amplitude on some of the frequencies
with the 2nd capo in place.
That suggests that there is coupling above
the fretted note(s).
> Uhhhhh, one thing... I'm interested
> in opinions, not flame wars......
Flame wars is a large part of the territory
on usenet. And when it comes to setup and repair,
it's a large part of the territory between me
and Cybersurf.
Just the way it is.
RichL
Up until the point where Lumpy provoked the "credentials" diversion, I'm
not sure who was winning, I was just trying to weigh the pros and cons
of each approach. But yeah, the "post your real name" crap doesn't win
many points in my book.
Lumpy
> ...But yeah, the "post your real name" crap
> doesn't win many points in my book.
Too many people in the world are consumed with
all this "points in my book" approach. Boring,
to me. I prefer pedal to the metal for the few
femtoseconds I'm on earth.
Lumpy
You played on "The Love Boat"?
Yes. White tux, huge sideburns.
Cyberserf
wrote:
> Thanks to all who replied-for now, I'm running with using a couple of
> drops of superglue, *but* taking the the time to shape the nut to a
> good fit in the slot, and ensuring a good contact area, rather than
> relying on the filling properties of adhesives. Don't forget, though,
> that the nut only couples vibrations for six of the forty or so notes
> available from the instrument.
>
> Moving on, a couple of further questions- the instructions to leave
> the wound strings half buried, and the plain strings completely
> buried- is this just convention- hey, who wants to be conventional- or
> is there any real practical reason?
There are practical reasons...first, its a fulcrum, not a channel so
the less constrained the better. The reason the treble strings are
buried is because they pop out easier during bends and this avoid the
inconvenience of having to reseat the string in the middle of a song
>
> Secondly, a roundabout question, but stay with me. Who likes/hates/
> doesn't mind the action feel of playing with a capo? I'm assuming by
> default that lower and lower nut action equals better and better,
> right up until the strings start buzzing, and a capo equivalent setup
> is perfection- unless I've badly missed something.
That's my understanding as well. As you note below, there are many
guitars that have been, and still are, built with a zero nut...This is
a fret directly in front of the nut...thus the nut is simply a channel
to keep the string in position, but the zero fret is the actual
fulcrum. No such thing as nut action on these.
>
> You can probably see by now why I'm still drawn towards zero frets,
> and I'm currently retrofitting one to the Cheap Tweaker- stay tuned.
The problem is that you can't really easily retrofit without adding a
bit of fake fingerboard to the end, otherwise, your intonation will be
out. You need to have the take off point (the fulcrum) of the string
at the same position in order to have the rest of the fret positions
conform to the scale length of the instrument...which means, placing
the zero fret where the nut used to be and moving the nut back on the
headstock.
>
> Uhhhhh, one thing... I'm interested in opinions, not flame wars......
I'm interested in factual information, not blind parroting and vague
feelings about how "real luthiers" do things.
BTW, if you are interested, there are pictorials to the whole process
at :
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut1.html
and elsewhere, there is no reason to take my word...or Lumpy's echoes.
Regards, CS
one_riff_brian
> The problem is that you can't really easily retrofit without adding a
> bit of fake fingerboard to the end,
That's more or less what I'm doing to the Cheap Tweaker:
http://www.wesleyguitars.co.uk/storefrontprofiles/DeluxeSFItemDetail.aspx?sid=1&sfid=44184&c=282695&i=208639976
It's quite liberating to have something cheap and nasty for high risk/
low stakes experimenting and learning. I cut away a chunk of the
fretboard to make fret 1 into fret zero, and lived with a shorter
scale and mispositioned markers. I'm happy so far, but with one
stipulation: the strings will wear "clicky" notches in nickel silver
frets, and the zero fret, if nothing else, needs to be stainless. I'm
restoring the missing section of fretboard -and a little bit more-
with a piece of Dymondwood,,,
http://www.rutply.com/products/dymondwood.html
...then all I've got to do is cut a slot for a fret, and I'm ready to
roll. What could be simpler................
http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/index.htm
The maths say that the string needs to be 1.05946......... times as
long between fret 1 and fret zero. AIUI, Messrs. Stephen Delft, Buzz
Feiten, Earvana et al say that the story doesn't end there- the open
string is a little bit slacker... to be continued......
>
>
>
> BTW, if you are interested, there are pictorials to the whole process
> at :
>
> http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut...
>
A very good and clear account- it's clear, though, that gauging the
nut action, and taking it to the brink is the longest part of the
learning process. It's not witchcraft, though- Tusk of Woolly Mammoth,
anyone? It's precision engineering.
Cyberserf
wrote:
> On Jul 11, 12:34 pm, Cyberserf <cybrs...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > The problem is that you can't really easily retrofit without adding a
> > bit of fake fingerboard to the end,
>
>
> It's quite liberating to have something cheap and nasty for high risk/
> low stakes experimenting and learning. I cut away a chunk of the
> fretboard to make fret 1 into fret zero, and lived with a shorter
> scale and mispositioned markers. I'm happy so far, but with one
> stipulation: the strings will wear "clicky" notches in nickel silver
> frets, and the zero fret, if nothing else, needs to be stainless. I'm
> restoring the missing section of fretboard -and a little bit more-
>
> ...then all I've got to do is cut a slot for a fret, and I'm ready to
> roll. What could be simpler................
>
> http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/index.htm
>
> The maths say that the string needs to be 1.05946......... times as
> long between fret 1 and fret zero. AIUI, Messrs. Stephen Delft, Buzz
> Feiten, Earvana et al say that the story doesn't end there- the open
> string is a little bit slacker... to be continued......
>
>
>
> > BTW, if you are interested, there are pictorials to the whole process
> > at :
>
> >http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut...
>
> A very good and clear account- it's clear, though, that gauging the
> nut action, and taking it to the brink is the longest part of the
> learning process. It's not witchcraft, though- Tusk of Woolly Mammoth,
> anyone? It's precision engineering.
Cool experiment. You might also be interested in the work of Greg
Byers regarding nut compensation. He presented a workshop on it some
time ago and the published paper is available here:
http://www.byersguitars.com/Research/intonation.pdf
Luck, CS
RichL
Wow, very cool paper.
Do you know if anyone has done similar analysis on steel strings? I'd
be interested specifically on the nickel-wound steels that I use on my
electrics. This is something I'd be interested in analyzing myself but
there's only so much time in the day and I need to put food on the table
;-)