Chord progression
Paul P
Here's an interesting chord progression, and exercise,
to be played with triads in root position :
C, Em, G, Gm, Eb, Cm, Ab, Fm, Db, Bbm, Bb, Dm, F, Am, C
Start in 8th position which puts the C on the 4th string,
10th fret.
- only one note changes from chord to chord
- the progression is circular with the last C
being the same as the first one
- the roots move by alternating minor and major
thirds except where things turn around between
the G's and Bb's.
- the roots move up to G, down to Bb then back up to C
The progression is symmetrical around C in that it goes up
two 5ths above C and down two 5ths below C. The progression can
be extended upward between the G's with Bm, D, Dm, Bb (instead
of things turning around between the G's they now turn around
between the D's) but not at the lower end between the Bb's
because you'd fall of the fretboard.
Paul P
Lumpy
> Here's an interesting chord progression, and exercise,
> to be played with triads in root position :
>
> C, Em, G, Gm, Eb, Cm, Ab, Fm, Db, Bbm, Bb, Dm, F, Am, C
>
> Start in 8th position which puts the C on the 4th string,
> 10th fret.
>
> - only one note changes from chord to chord
> - the progression is circular with the last C
> being the same as the first one
> - the roots move by alternating minor and major
> thirds except where things turn around between
> the G's and Bb's.
> - the roots move up to G, down to Bb then back up to C
Here's another. Use ONLY the notes from the C Maj scale.
When adding notes to a chord, add every OTHER note from
the scale. ie skip a note. Stack 3rds.
Start by ADDING notes to the back:
C E G B = CM7
C E G B D = CM9
C E G B D F = CM11
C E G B D F A = CM13
Now start subtracting notes from the front
AND
adding them to the back:
E G B D F = Em7b9
G B D F = G7
G B D F A = G9
B D F A = Bm7b5
D F A C E = Dm9
F A C E = FM7
F A C E G = FM9
A C E G = Am7
A C E G B = Am9
C E G B = CM7
Or split the extended chords apart
C E G B = CM7
C E G (C) + E G B (Em) = CM7
C E G B D = CM9
C E G (C) + E G B (Em) + G B D (G) = CM9
Or rearrange all the chord extensions
C E G B D F A = CM13 = C D E F G A B = C Maj Scale
When the chart calls for a Maj13 chord, you can play ANY
notes of the scale and be "correct".
Lumpy
You were the "OPERATION" game voice?
Yes. Take out wrenched ankle.
ed
Is That a song ?? eD
Lumpy
> > Or rearrange all the chord extensions
> > C E G B D F A = CM13 = C D E F G A B = C Maj Scale
Ed:
> Is That a song ?? eD
Smoking on the Rising Stairway to Freebird of New Orleans
Lumpy
Can you do that FM disc jockey voice?
Yes, but it doesn't translate well in ascii.
www.lumpyvoice.net
ed
Ok - just checkin, didn't want you playing any scales or any of that
weird stuff - ; ' ) - ed
Charmed Snark
alt.guitar.beginner:
> Lump:
>> > Or rearrange all the chord extensions
>> > C E G B D F A = CM13 = C D E F G A B = C Maj Scale
>
> Ed:
>> Is That a song ?? eD
>
> Smoking on the Rising Stairway to Freebird of New Orleans
>
>
> Lumpy
Someone's been smokin' !
Snark.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Paul P
>
> [interesting stuff that I just spent an hour or
> so going through]
>
then :
>
> When the chart calls for a Maj13 chord, you can play ANY
> notes of the scale and be "correct".
But you'll sound weird :-) I just played around with this
in my Cakewalk Kinetic program (very nice 100$ 16 voice
synth, midi sequencer, song assembler) using a strings patch.
The Maj7 already sounds strange and as you go to 9, 11 and 13
things get stranger. Sounds like Chostakovitch :-)
Oh, and you'll need two guitars...
Paul P
Lumpy
> > When the chart calls for a Maj13 chord, you can play ANY
> > notes of the scale and be "correct".
Paul P:
> But you'll sound weird :-)...
Exactly. Instead of the adjective "weird" consider it
as "jazzy" "outside" "non-vanilla" etc. If every chord
we play is a plain jane triad, it sounds too "Sesame Street"
or "Mr Rogers" or "Vanilla" or "Campfire". When you want some
tension, some spice, some difference, you start adding chord
extentions - 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths. You probably can't just
suddently take "Michael Row the Boat Ashore" and do it in all
13th chords. But you probably could in 7ths. And maybe sub the
dom 13th for the V chord instead of a plain V7 chord.
> Oh, and you'll need two guitars...
Don't overlook the original suggestion above.
You can play ANY notes of the scale and be "correct".
That implies there is some other sounds going on.
The voice, the solo instruments, the bass instruments
etc are adding tones to the chord. If the Bass is playing
a C (note) and the guitar is playing an Em (chord) the
resulting harmony perceived by the listener is a CMaj7 chord.
Lumpy
You were the Ken-L-Ration St Bernard?
Yes. My dog's bigger.
www.lumpyvoice.net
Stephen Calder
You probably can't just
> suddently take "Michael Row the Boat Ashore" and do it in all
> 13th chords. But you probably could in 7ths. And maybe sub the
> dom 13th for the V chord instead of a plain V7 chord.
>
I thought I'd give this a try, since this is a beginner group and
everyone knows the song.
As you know, and said above somewhere, but for those who may not, or
didn't read it, what the jazz guys often do is harmonise the scale with
extended chords that build only on the notes of the scale.
So instead of
C Dm Em F G Am Bdim* C
[*often replaced by G7, which contains the Bdim triad]
we get the following substitutes:
Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5 C
For the song in question this results in:
[Cmaj7] Michael row the boat ashore
Halle [Fmaj7]lu[Cmaj7]jah
Michael [Em7]row the boat a[Dm7]shore
Halle[Cmaj7]lu-[G7]-u- [Cmaj7]jah.
Works beautifully, and as you suggest, you can substitute the G13 for
the G7 in the last line.
Here's an easy G13 shape for those who want to try.
323000
All the other shapes are very easy too, and contrasting this with the
"straight" chords is a very good illustration of why jazz chords make a
song more interesting.
Much more fun than being slapped silly with a wet fish.
--
Stephen
Ballina, Australia
John
"Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography.com> wrote in message
news:5l32k1F...@mid.individual.net...
Rubbish. Most listeners would 'never' perceive an Em triad being
played by a guitar player let alone that in context it's a CMaj7
chord. :-)
Lumpy
> [Cmaj7] Michael row the boat ashore
> Halle [Fmaj7]lu[Cmaj7]jah
> Michael [Em7]row the boat a[Dm7]shore
> Halle[Cmaj7]lu-[G7]-u- [Cmaj7]jah.
Here's one -
CMaj7 Dm11 Em7
Michael row the boat a - shore
Am7 Dm7 G7#5 CMaj13
Halle - Lu - - - Jah
Em7b5 A7#5 A7 D
Michael row the boat a - shore
Dm7b5 G13 G7 C5
Halle - Lu - - - Jah
Think SMALL here. Don't try and play huge
chords. Find a root, a 3rd, a 7th and the
odd extention. Try to not include a lot of
5ths in the chord. Any time there's a # or
b 5th, be careful not to also include a natural 5th.
CMaj7 = x3x453
Dm11 = x5758x
Em7 = x7978x
Am7 = 5x555x
Dm7 = x5756x
G7#5 = 3x344
CMaj13 = x3x455
Em7b5 = x7878x
A7#5 = 5x566x
A7 = 5x565x
D = x5777x
Dm7 = x5756x
Dm7b5 = x5656x
G13 = 3x345x
G7 = 3x343
C5 = x355xx
The first three chords, CMaj7 - Dm11 - Em7
do a little voice leading. Fingered the way I've
suggested, the top most note or voice is the melody.
The Dm11 is a neutered chored in this case. There's
no 3rd so it's not really a minor or a Major. You could
also call it a Dsus4. If there were a 3rd, I'd want it
to be a minor 3rd so I've chosen to simply call it a Dm11.
And just for fun, I used a C5 (root and 5th only) at the end
to do a little more voice leading.
IN PRACTICE I don't think of arrangements as series
of chords like the above. I think of them as the
plain jain chords CM7, Dm7, Em7 etc. The extentions like
11ths and # or b 5ths are more like voices that pass from
one chord to another. In other words, in the middle of an
arrangement, I'm not trying to figure out how to finger a
13th or a #5 chord, I'm simply playing the base chord and
adding a note for tension.
You can't "hang" on these chords. You have to play through
them and get on down the road to the next chord. If you
hang on a tense chord it will sound "wrong".
Root + 3rd + 7th + oddball melody note
Lumpy
You Played on Lawrence Welk?
Yes but no blue notes. Just blue hairs.
Lumpy
Lump:
> > Don't overlook the original suggestion above.
> > You can play ANY notes of the scale and be "correct".
> > That implies there is some other sounds going on.
> > The voice, the solo instruments, the bass instruments
> > etc are adding tones to the chord. If the Bass is playing
> > a C (note) and the guitar is playing an Em (chord) the
> > resulting harmony perceived by the listener is a CMaj7 chord.
John:
> Rubbish. Most listeners would 'never' perceive an Em triad being
> played by a guitar player let alone that in context it's a CMaj7
> chord. :-)
I'm not at all sure what you're saying there or
why it has a smiley.
Consider a simpler to imagine situation.
A Barbershop Quartet. The four voices
sing C E G B.
What chord are they singing, in the perception
of the listener?
Sean
> Here's one -
>
> CMaj7 Dm11 Em7
> Michael row the boat a - shore
>
> Am7 Dm7 G7#5 CMaj13
> Halle - Lu - - - Jah
>
> Em7b5 A7#5 A7 D
> Michael row the boat a - shore
>
> Dm7b5 G13 G7 C5
> Halle - Lu - - - Jah
Nice.
(snip)
> CMaj7 = x3x453
Perhaps a dumb question. What makes the following a *minor* 11?
Lumpy
> Perhaps a dumb question. What makes the following a *minor* 11?
Lump:
> > Dm11 = x5758x
As in the description that followed. Simply a matter
of convenience.
> > The Dm11 is a neutered chored in this case. There's
> > no 3rd so it's not really a minor or a Major. You could
> > also call it a Dsus4. If there were a 3rd, I'd want it
> > to be a minor 3rd so I've chosen to simply call it a Dm11.
It's not really min or Maj. But if there is/was a 3rd, I'd
want it to be a minor 3rd. To prove the concept, try playing
the progression as CMaj7 followed by Dm7. Then try the
same thing as CMaj7 followed by D7 (the Major chord).
Lumpy
How come you didn't star on Star Trek?
Because Clint Howard beat me for the part of Balok.
Paul P
> IN PRACTICE I don't think of arrangements as series
> of chords like the above. I think of them as the
> plain jain chords CM7, Dm7, Em7 etc. The extentions like
> 11ths and # or b 5ths are more like voices that pass from
> one chord to another.
I like doing something similar but while singing the notes
(improvising) on top of simple chords. Something I find
myself doing a lot is to keep singing a note that belongs to
the previous chord after the chord has changed and then let
that note fall into its proper place in the new chord. Before
this happens some sort of chord is in effect but I don't even
know what it is. But it sounds cool.
Paul P
Habib
Yes but Michael can only row the boat ashore because it is the will of
Allah!
Praise Allah!
Lumpy
> > IN PRACTICE I don't think of arrangements as series
> > of chords like the above. I think of them as the
> > plain jain chords CM7, Dm7, Em7 etc. The extentions like
> > 11ths and # or b 5ths are more like voices that pass from
> > one chord to another.
Paul P:
> I like doing something similar but while singing the notes
> (improvising) on top of simple chords. Something I find
> myself doing a lot is to keep singing a note that belongs to
> the previous chord after the chord has changed and then let
> that note fall into its proper place in the new chord. Before
> this happens some sort of chord is in effect but I don't even
> know what it is. But it sounds cool.
Yup Yup Yup! Exactly!
Chord melody or voice leading is not so much a bunch
of extended chords. It's 4 part harmony (or maybe 3 or
5 part harmony). It's 4 individual voices moving in
various directions. The melody takes precedence, that's
what you're typically singing. If we keep the same melody
note from a previous chord, as you describe above, we
change that SAME NOTE from resolved to tense or the
reverse, from tense to resolved.
Example:
Play a C#Maj7 x4656x
Resolve that to C Maj x3555x
That C note in the middle xxx5xx
stays constant in both chords. But in
the first chord it's the dissonant Maj 7th.
In the 2nd chord it's the more resolved Tonic or root/octave.
WEave it in and out of tense vs resolved:
Use Rhythm changes (I vi ii V)
CM7 Am7 Dm7 G7
While playing those 4 chords sing the note G.
CM7 + G is resolved (G is the 5th)
Am7 + G is a little less resolved (more tense) (G is the m7th)
Dm7 + G is a little more tense (G is the 4th/11th)
G + G is totally resolved (G is the unison/octave root)
The NOTE doesn't change, but it's perceived tension or
resolve changes based on the rest of the notes that
surround it.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.lumpymusic.com
John
>
> Lump:
>> > Don't overlook the original suggestion above.
>> > You can play ANY notes of the scale and be "correct".
>> > That implies there is some other sounds going on.
>> > The voice, the solo instruments, the bass instruments
>> > etc are adding tones to the chord. If the Bass is playing
>> > a C (note) and the guitar is playing an Em (chord) the
>> > resulting harmony perceived by the listener is a CMaj7
>> > chord.
>
> John:
>> Rubbish. Most listeners would 'never' perceive an Em triad
>> being
>> played by a guitar player let alone that in context it's a
>> CMaj7
>> chord. :-)
>
> I'm not at all sure what you're saying there or
> why it has a smiley.
>
> Consider a simpler to imagine situation.
> A Barbershop Quartet. The four voices
> sing C E G B.
>
> What chord are they singing, in the perception
> of the listener?
The majority of listeners don't have perceptions about what chord
it is. They just say "that sounds nice", or, not. :-)
I can't imagine sitting next to someone and asking them "I wonder
what chord that is?", and them replying "I perceive that to be a
CMaj7."
Lumpy
> The majority of listeners don't have perceptions about what chord
> it is. They just say "that sounds nice", or, not. :-)
>
> I can't imagine sitting next to someone and asking them "I wonder
> what chord that is?", and them replying "I perceive that to be a
> CMaj7."
Imagine (pun alert) sitting next to someone and hearing
the performer play the song "Imagine" by John Lennon.
CM7 FM7
Imagine there's no heaven
CM7 FM7
It's easy if you try
etc.
Now instead of CM7, the performer
plays Em7.
It would sound "wrong", even though the notes
are nearly the same.
The average person, even a musician, doesn't hear
a CM7. But they surely hear if it's SOME Maj 7th chord
vs a min 7th chord. We don't have to be able to identify
WHAT chord it is. But we do have to hear the right chord.
Otherwise our brain says "something is wrong".
C(note) + Em7(chord) = CM7(chord)
All four of the notes C E G B don't necessarily have
to be played on the same instrument. In an orchestra
or string quartet or vocal ensemble or wind ensemble,
the chord CAN'T be played by any single instrument.
Only on polyphonic instruments (guitar, piano etc)
can we play chords.
But even with polyphonic instruments, if there's more
than one, the chord that comes across to the listener
is the totality of ALL the notes being played.
Stephen Calder
I do. Only one note difference between them.
--
Stephen
Ballina, Australia
Stephen Calder
>
> IN PRACTICE I don't think of arrangements as series
> of chords like the above. I think of them as the
> plain jain chords CM7, Dm7, Em7 etc. The extentions like
> 11ths and # or b 5ths are more like voices that pass from
> one chord to another. In other words, in the middle of an
> arrangement, I'm not trying to figure out how to finger a
> 13th or a #5 chord, I'm simply playing the base chord and
> adding a note for tension.
Yes! There's a lot of meat in this paragraph. Beginners take note.
--
Stephen
Ballina, Australia
Sean
> Sean wrote:
>
>> Perhaps a dumb question. What makes the following a *minor* 11?
>
> Lump:
>>> Dm11 = x5758x
>
> As in the description that followed. Simply a matter
> of convenience.
Hmm. I didn't read the description.Anyway, I had fun playing the thing.
John
> John wrote:
>> The majority of listeners don't have perceptions about what
>> chord
>> it is. They just say "that sounds nice", or, not. :-)
>>
>> I can't imagine sitting next to someone and asking them "I
>> wonder
>> what chord that is?", and them replying "I perceive that to be
>> a
>> CMaj7."
>
> Imagine (pun alert) sitting next to someone and hearing
> the performer play the song "Imagine" by John Lennon.
>
> CM7 FM7
> Imagine there's no heaven
>
> CM7 FM7
> It's easy if you try
>
> etc.
>
> Now instead of CM7, the performer
> plays Em7.
Depends. CMaj9 wouldn't necessarily sound wrong.
But you're now shifting the goalposts.
This was about you saying someone in the audience would hear a
chord as CMaj7. I disagreed.
>
> It would sound "wrong", even though the notes
> are nearly the same.
>
> The average person, even a musician, doesn't hear
> a CM7.
Which was basically my point. But now you're inverting what we're
both talking about.
John
"Stephen Calder" <cal...@in.com.au> wrote in message
news:46ecccf9$1...@news.eftel.com.au...
So do I. But we are not most listeners.
Stephen Calder
> Stephen Calder wrote:
>> [Cmaj7] Michael row the boat ashore
>> Halle [Fmaj7]lu[Cmaj7]jah
>> Michael [Em7]row the boat a[Dm7]shore
>> Halle[Cmaj7]lu-[G7]-u- [Cmaj7]jah.
>
> Here's one -
>
> CMaj7 Dm11 Em7
> Michael row the boat a - shore
>
> Am7 Dm7 G7#5 CMaj13
> Halle - Lu - - - Jah
>
> Em7b5 A7#5 A7 D
> Michael row the boat a - shore
>
> Dm7b5 G13 G7 C5
> Halle - Lu - - - Jah
>
Beautiful, but I don't like the D on "shore". I like Dm7. The rest works
fine to me. I realise this is subjective.
--
Stephen
Ballina, Australia
Lumpy
> Which was basically my point. But
> now you're inverting what we're
> both talking about.
I'm not sure at all what you're talking about,
John. I think you're trying to produce an
argument for the sake of argument.
My point is that the chord perceived by the
listener is the total combination of all the
notes that are coming off the stage, simple
as that.
Lumpy
Did you do a lot of those Emergency Broadcast Warnings?
Yes. Had it been an actual emergency I would have hid.
John
> John wrote:
>> Which was basically my point. But
>> now you're inverting what we're
>> both talking about.
>
> I'm not sure at all what you're talking about,
> John. I think you're trying to produce an
> argument for the sake of argument.
Not at all. You ended up saying what I was saying anyway. I just
made an observation that most people in an audience wouldn't know
a CMaj7 chord from and Em triad or any other type of chord, a
power chord for example.
You were saying the listener would perceive a CMaj7 chord if the
guitarist played an Em triad and the bass player played a C.
I was just saying, in general, audiences have no ideas about
chords, their names, or what they sound like.
No big deal. I just disagreed with you is all.
No argument, no offence intended, so please don't take it. :-)
That's the reason for the smiley.
> My point is that the chord perceived by the
> listener is the total combination of all the
> notes that are coming off the stage, simple
> as that.
And my point was that in general listeners don't really
'perceive' chords, as such. :-) It's just a sound to them.
Lumpy
> You were saying the listener would perceive a CMaj7 chord if the
> guitarist played an Em triad and the bass player played a C.
>
> I was just saying, in general, audiences have no ideas about
> chords, their names, or what they sound like.
I'm not talking about a listener hearing
a cluster of notes and saying "that's a CM7".
I'm talking about them hearing a cluster and
perceiving it as a Major or minor chord or
a dom 7th or a Maj7th etc.
"Ooh! That sounds all sparkly!"
John
"John" <cru...@commiecrusher.com> wrote in message
news:VpudncHURZk...@giganews.com...> news:5l5ni5F...@mid.individual.net...
>> John wrote:
>>> You were saying the listener would perceive a CMaj7 chord if
>>> the
>>> guitarist played an Em triad and the bass player played a C.
>>>
>>> I was just saying, in general, audiences have no ideas about
>>> chords, their names, or what they sound like.
>>
>> I'm not talking about a listener hearing
>> a cluster of notes and saying "that's a CM7".
>> I'm talking about them hearing a cluster and
>> perceiving it as a Major or minor chord or
>> a dom 7th or a Maj7th etc.
>
> between minor, major, 7th or any other chords. All they know is
> that they like (or not) the 'sounds' they are hearing.
>
>
>> "Ooh! That sounds all sparkly!"
What sounds all sparkly? A Maj6 chord? So any time anyone plays
that chord everyone will say "Ooh! That sounds all sparkly!"?
Pull the other one.
What 'sounds' sparkly to one could well sound like shit to
another.
Lumpy
> > I'm not talking about a listener hearing
> > a cluster of notes and saying "that's a CM7".
> > I'm talking about them hearing a cluster and
> > perceiving it as a Major or minor chord or
> > a dom 7th or a Maj7th etc.
John:
> And I'm saying most listeners wouldn't know the difference
> between minor, major, 7th or any other chords. All they know is
> that they like (or not) the 'sounds' they are hearing.
I think you keep wanting to suggest that people can't
hear a cluster of notes and be able to name the chord
as a CM7 or whatever.
I AGREE!
What I'm saying, that I just don't think you are
hearing, is that people can tell if it's the WRONG
chord.
Even musicians are likely not able to name the
chord as CM7 or DM7 or F#M7 etc. But they can
very likely hear "that's a Maj chord and I think
it should be a minor".
Non musicians may not know Maj/min but they usually
can tell if the wrong chord is being played.
Lumpy
Doesn't your butt hurt?
Yes. That's why I get paid the big bucks.
http://www.digitalcartography.com/studio_lumpy.htm
Stephen Calder
>> John wrote:
>>> You were saying the listener would perceive a CMaj7 chord if
>>> the
>>> guitarist played an Em triad and the bass player played a C.
>>>
>>> I was just saying, in general, audiences have no ideas about
>>> chords, their names, or what they sound like.
>> I'm not talking about a listener hearing
>> a cluster of notes and saying "that's a CM7".
>> I'm talking about them hearing a cluster and
>> perceiving it as a Major or minor chord or
>> a dom 7th or a Maj7th etc.
>
> between minor, major, 7th or any other chords. All they know is
> that they like (or not) the 'sounds' they are hearing.
>
It's true that musicians hear differently from everyone else. I'm lucky
in a way because when I first hear a piece of music there is absolutely
no analysis going on for me. I just absorb it. Until I set out to learn
a piece, I'm not even thinking about what chords the guys might be
playing, or what key it might be in, or how sophisticated the harmonies are.
A realise many musicians are compulsive in this regard. I have a good
friend, a highly talented musician who is a virtuoso on at least three
instrument (piano, guitar and bass) who found himself unable to enjoy a
lot of the music of the sixties, for example, because so much of it was
so simple, musically, in its construction that he was bored with it.
I'm glad I didn't miss out for that reason.
Like me when I listen without analysis, a non-musician won't be able to
tell the difference between a Cmaj7 and an Em/C, but will hear them as
"the same".
I think that makes you and Lumpy both right.
--
Stephen
Ballina, Australia
Nil
> Perhaps a dumb question. What makes the following a *minor* 11?
>> Dm11 = x5758x
The chords are assumed to be diatonic to the key unless otherwise
specified. In other words, the chord whose root is the second degree of
the scale is assumed to be minor unless something tells you it's not.
If you are a skilled improviser or arranger, you could find a way to
treat this as a D7(sus4) or D11, but you would provide a clue such as
an F# melody note somewhere in the vicinity of that chord.
Lumpy
> Like me when I listen without analysis, a non-musician won't be able
> to tell the difference between a Cmaj7 and an Em/C, but will hear
> them as "the same".
Bravo! That's the point I'm making.
They don't hear it as "some minor" chord.
They hear it as "some Maj7th chord".
Or perhaps more correctly, they don't
"hear it" (notice it) at all because
it sounds "correct". If it was an Ebm/C
then it would sound horribly "incorrect"
and therefore they would notice it.
John
> Lump:
>> > I'm not talking about a listener hearing
>> > a cluster of notes and saying "that's a CM7".
>> > I'm talking about them hearing a cluster and
>> > perceiving it as a Major or minor chord or
>> > a dom 7th or a Maj7th etc.
>
> John:
>> And I'm saying most listeners wouldn't know the difference
>> between minor, major, 7th or any other chords. All they know
>> is
>> that they like (or not) the 'sounds' they are hearing.
>
> I think you keep wanting to suggest that people can't
> hear a cluster of notes and be able to name the chord
> as a CM7 or whatever.
>
> I AGREE!
Nope. Your assertion that they'd hear a CMaj7 chord is what I
disagree with. *WE* know what it is and can name it here. But
they don't and can't.
>
> What I'm saying, that I just don't think you are
> hearing, is that people can tell if it's the WRONG
> chord.
Why didn't you say that, then. :--) But even then, they may not
know it's a wrong chord.
> Even musicians are likely not able to name the
> chord as CM7 or DM7 or F#M7 etc. But they can
> very likely hear "that's a Maj chord and I think
> it should be a minor".
Yep. But a gernral ,listener wouldn't know that. They may think
something sounds a bit off, but they would probably blame it on
the drummer.
> Non musicians may not know Maj/min but they usually
> can tell if the wrong chord is being played.
I don't agree. I think they'd just maybe sense if something is
off. But they wouldn't be able to define it as a wrong chord.
John
Same here, because it was the spontaneous 'feel', soul and the
beat, and all your mates there too that really made it all so
much fun.
> Like me when I listen without analysis, a non-musician won't be
> able to tell the difference between a Cmaj7 and an Em/C, but
> will hear them as "the same".
>
> I think that makes you and Lumpy both right.
I agree with you, sorta. But then, we don't really know what
other people hear it as. I'm saying they don't 'perceive' it to
be a particular chord. To most, it's just a sound they dig.
For us to say that's what it is and that's what they perceive it
to be, I think is not precisely true.
And it's amazing how many people are tone-deaf and really just
like the performer and the 'words' they are singing.
Of course that's a generalization and doesn't fir every scenario.
I think people that genuinely love music and can separate and
hear all the parts, individually, they are more likely to know
more than the general listener.
I get my students to listen to music a lot. And I tell them to
learn to listen to the drummer, the bass, the keys, the singer,
the guitar player separately. "Listen to how the drummer and bass
player work together. Hear the kick, hear how the bass players
fits in there?"
It takes a while before most of them can actually do that.
There are not many general listeners that can do that at all.
Except when there's a drum solo or a big loud guitar solo.
Sean
> Lump:
>>> I'm not talking about a listener hearing
>>> a cluster of notes and saying "that's a CM7".
>>> I'm talking about them hearing a cluster and
>>> perceiving it as a Major or minor chord or
>>> a dom 7th or a Maj7th etc.
>
> John:
>> And I'm saying most listeners wouldn't know the difference
>> between minor, major, 7th or any other chords. All they know is
>> that they like (or not) the 'sounds' they are hearing.
>
> I think you keep wanting to suggest that people can't
> hear a cluster of notes and be able to name the chord
> as a CM7 or whatever.
>
> I AGREE!
>
> What I'm saying, that I just don't think you are
> hearing, is that people can tell if it's the WRONG
> chord.
>
> Even musicians are likely not able to name the
> chord as CM7 or DM7 or F#M7 etc. But they can
> very likely hear "that's a Maj chord and I think
> it should be a minor".
That's the whole deal when you're figuring out a song by ear. "I'll try
this chord...Nope, sounds wrong...I'll do this...closer...I'll do
that...That sounds right. Now, what the hell is that?"
Charmed Snark
alt.guitar.beginner:
> Lump:
>> > I'm not talking about a listener hearing
>> > a cluster of notes and saying "that's a CM7".
>> > I'm talking about them hearing a cluster and
>> > perceiving it as a Major or minor chord or
>> > a dom 7th or a Maj7th etc.
>
> John:
>> And I'm saying most listeners wouldn't know the difference
>> between minor, major, 7th or any other chords. All they know is
>> that they like (or not) the 'sounds' they are hearing.
>
> I think you keep wanting to suggest that people can't
> hear a cluster of notes and be able to name the chord
> as a CM7 or whatever.
>
> I AGREE!
>
> What I'm saying, that I just don't think you are
> hearing, is that people can tell if it's the WRONG
> chord.
...
> Lumpy
Too bad more women don't post/argue here--
then we could all shout "cat fight!"
Snark.
Habib
"Charmed Snark" <sn...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns99AE7E48C6E9FS...@66.150.105.47...
That would be wonderful, I will pray to Allah now.
Praise Allah!
Charmed Snark
alt.guitar.beginner:
Camel fights are not quite the same thing.
Snark.
Habib
Sadly you are correct Sir.
Praise Allah!