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Chord naming

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Tony Done

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Mar 26, 2006, 4:02:13 PM3/26/06
to
Is there anywhere that gives a list of chord names of the form:

1,3,5 major
1,b3,5 minor

etc.

Thanks,

Tony D


Stephen Calder

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Mar 26, 2006, 4:20:21 PM3/26/06
to
Tony Done wrote:

Not sure what you're looking for.

You just asked for a list of the names of all the major and minor
chords, but I don't think that's what you meant.

If that IS what you meant, simply write out the 12 (actually 11) notes
and put major and minor after each of them. 22 chords in all.

--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia

Tony Done

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Mar 26, 2006, 4:40:29 PM3/26/06
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"Stephen Calder" <calder...@in.com.au> wrote in message
news:44270595$0$514$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

No, what I was asking for was the notes in, say, a dominant 7th or a
suspended 4th. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Half tones from the root
would be useful too, eg major is 0, 4,7, minor is 0,3,7 - this is how I
actually work out chord shapes.

Tony D


Barry Hall

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Mar 26, 2006, 4:41:18 PM3/26/06
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"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:pjDVf.16911$dy4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

I cant promise this is complete but in one of my early lessons I was tought
this

1,3,5 major
1,b3,5 minor
1,b3,b5 diminished
1,3,#5 augmented
1,4,5 sus4
1,2,5 sus2
1,3,5,7 major 7
1,b3,5,b7 minor 7
1,3,5,b7 dominant 7
1,3,5,6 major 6th
1,b3,5,6 minor 6

so in TAB using D as an example

1,3,5 D major = xx0232
1,b3,5 D minor = xx0231
1,b3,b5 D diminished = xx0131
1,3,#5 D augmented = xx0331
1,4,5 D sus4 = xx0233
1,2,5 D sus2 = xx0230
1,3,5,7 D major 7 = xx0222
1,b3,5,b7 D minor 7 = xx0211
1,3,5,b7 D dominant 7 = xx0212
1,3,5,6 D major 6th = xx0202
1,b3,5,6 D minor 6 = xx0201

Barry


no66y©

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Mar 26, 2006, 4:38:37 PM3/26/06
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"Tony Done" wrote in message

> No, what I was asking for was the notes in, say, a dominant 7th or a
> suspended 4th. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Half tones from the root
> would be useful too, eg major is 0, 4,7, minor is 0,3,7 - this is how I
> actually work out chord shapes.

does this help at all?

http://keychord.com/


--
No66yŠ
Those who find they're touched by madness
Sit down next to me

Reply to address is a spam trap.
Use no66y [at] breathe [dot] com


Roger E. Blumberg

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Mar 26, 2006, 9:15:07 PM3/26/06
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> From: "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com>
> Organization: BigPond Internet Services
> Newsgroups: alt.guitar.beginner
> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 21:40:29 GMT
> Subject: Re: Chord naming
>

>> Tony Done wrote:
>>
>>> Is there anywhere that gives a list of chord names of the form:
>>>
>>> 1,3,5 major
>>> 1,b3,5 minor
>>>

then clarified further

> .... what I was asking for was the notes in, say, a dominant 7th or a


> suspended 4th. Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Half tones from the root
> would be useful too, eg major is 0, 4,7, minor is 0,3,7 - this is how I
> actually work out chord shapes.
>
> Tony D


Hi Tony;

I have just the thing, including semitone formula! :

chords organized by _Family_ (Major, minor, Dominant)
http://www.TheCipher.com/chords_tbl-1.html

chords organized by _Size_ (triads through thirteenth chords)
http://www.TheCipher.com/chords_tbl-2.html

these aren't exhaustive but more than enough to start with

I have a PDF of those formula charts for printing, formula for intervals,
scales, and chords (plus a few other charts) here, 16 pages, 800k;

in this directory
http://www.TheCipher.com/AGB/
right-click and "save file as" to download this file
http://www.TheCipher.com/AGB/CipherFormula.pdf

hey Tony, did you know you can "plot" semitone formula directly on the
guitar fretboard and on adjacent strings _across_ the fretboard? If you're
interested, see these pages. In essence this is all just _intervals_, and
locating them on the fretboard (and from any string), because all musical
formula are simply strings of intervals:

http://www.TheCipher.com/3_minute_intro.html
http://www.TheCipher.com/5degree-calc-line.html
http://www.TheCipher.com/demonstrations_1.html
http://www.TheCipher.com/octave-pattern_1.html

intervals tutorial(s) (the foundation requisite, in case you need it Tony)
http://www.TheCipher.com/intervals_1.html
http://www.TheCipher.com/inversions-intervals_1.html

Roger

Kernix

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Mar 27, 2006, 10:27:08 AM3/27/06
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Tony,

Do you have a yahoo acct? If so, I have two groups that have databases
on nearly every possible chord built from the most common scales using
C as the root, and the other group have additional databases on how to
build all of those chords. Here's a link to the first group, then the
database page, and then a link to the C major scale database:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PhillyOriginalMusic/
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PhillyOriginalMusic/database
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PhillyOriginalMusic/database?method=reportRows&tbl=1

Here's the second group, database page and an example database on how
to build 22 different major chords:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PhillyMusicScene/
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PhillyMusicScene/database
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/PhillyMusicScene/database?method=reportRows&tbl=1

Jim

Kernix

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Mar 27, 2006, 1:51:02 PM3/27/06
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Barry Hall wrote:

> I cant promise this is complete but in one of my early lessons I was tought
> this


I would add the following:

> 1,3,5 major - no symbol
> 1,b3,5 minor - m
> 1,b3,b5 diminished - dim or superscript o
> 1,3,#5 augmented - +
> 1,4,5 sus4
> 1,2,5 sus2
> 1,3,5,7 major 7 - maj7 or M7
> 1,3,5,b7 dominant 7 - 7
> 1,b3,5,b7 minor 7 - m7

1, b3, b5, b7 1/2 diminished 7th - m7b5 or superscript o7 with a
slash thru the "o"
1, b3, b5, bb7 (bb7=M6) diminished 7th - dim7 superscript o7
1, 3, #5, 7 major 7th augmented - Maj7+ or M7+ or maj7#5 or
M7#5 - sweet chord
1, 3, #5, b7 augmented 7th - 7+ or 7#5
1, 3, b5, b7 7b5 - mostly used in jazz although the Beach Boys,
Sting & Stevie
Wonder use it from time to time

> 1,3,5,6 major 6th - 6
> 1,b3,5,6 minor 6 - m6

1, 4, 5, 6 6 suspended - 6sus

Don't forget add9's, 6 add9's (6/9), add 11's, add9/11's, 7sus, 9sus,
m9, m11, and altered 7th's like 7#9, 7#11, 7b9, 7b13, maj7#11, and
other extensions - 9th's, 11th's, 13th's, maj9's, maj13's, etc.

Tony Done

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Mar 27, 2006, 3:58:32 PM3/27/06
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"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:pjDVf.16911$dy4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Thanks for the helpful replies and links. I hope they help others who
subscribe to this ng. The style of music I've played for about four decades,
folk blues, doesn't call for much knowledge of chords. I've become more
interested in jazz, and it is only recently that I've realised that the
chord name depends on its intervals, not on the key it is being played in.
However, 7th chords are tricky, eg G7 should be called Gb7 to be consistent,
and dim7 is a bb7 and often seems to be the chord implied when a diminished
chord is required.

Tony D


Kernix

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Mar 27, 2006, 4:10:39 PM3/27/06
to

Tony Done wrote:
.

> However, 7th chords are tricky, eg G7 should be called Gb7 to be consistent,

Not so - there are technically only 2 types of 7th's - a major 7th (M7)
and a minor 7th (m7) - the minor 7th is often referred to as the "b7"
When the b7 is added it's just a 7th - C7, Cm7, C7sus, etc. When the M7
is added the letters "maj" or "ma" or "M" are added as in Cmaj7,
Cm-maj7, CM7#5, etc. - also you might see a diamond inbtween the
letter and the 7 to signify a maj7 - that's common in jazz circles.


> and dim7 is a bb7 and often seems to be the chord implied when a diminished
> chord is required.

dim7 and 1/2 dim 7's (m7b5) are both fairly common

virtual

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Mar 27, 2006, 4:21:49 PM3/27/06
to
In article <YlYVf.17863$dy4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:

Hi Tony,

Do not give up tonality and key feeling too soon! Chords exist within a
context and that context is (pun intended) the key to how they work.

Chords need both a structure (which intervals they contain), and a
function (tonic - dominant - sub-dominant).

Knowing that a sub-dominant chord will move the music away from the
tonic, and that the dominant will move the music back to the tonic,
allows you to make substitutions. It also helps you to expect what is
coming next and see the logic of a chord progression.

The relationship tonic-dominant allows you to see how the music has
modulated and in which key.

Have fun

--
Resources to play the guitar for fun and relaxation

http://www.virtualguitarcenter.com

ad...@virtualguitarcenter.com

Stephen Calder

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Mar 27, 2006, 6:04:33 PM3/27/06
to

The dominant seventh chord, for example G7, does, somewhat confusingly,
contain a minor seventh interval rather than a major seventh.

To call it a Gb7 would not be consistent, but even more confusing. G(b7)
might work, but it's a G chord, not a Gb chord, with an extra note.

It's the dominant seventh chord in the key of C, which is something you
just have to know. The F note in the chord is from the key of C, not the
F# from the key of G. As you say, names depend on intervals, not
necessarily on the key of the root note.

The G chord that does contain a major seventh interval is Gmaj7, so to
that extent there is consistency.

As for diminished chords, all you need to know is that they are stacked
minor thirds. Each note is three semitones from the one below it. You
don't have to worry about double flats if you think of them this way.

C diminished C-Eb-Gb
C diminished seventh C-Eb-Gb-B

The second chord is usually what is called for when you see a diminished
chord label in sheet music for popular songs. The harmony theorists
insist this is a wrong name, but in real life the wrong name is more
often used than the right one.

This statement has been designed to accurately represent the situation
and no response from me about correctness of nomenclature will be
forthcoming.

Tony Done

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Mar 27, 2006, 10:33:22 PM3/27/06
to

"Stephen Calder" <calder...@in.com.au> wrote in message
news:44286f83$0$504$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

> Tony Done wrote:
>> "Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>> news:pjDVf.16911$dy4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>>Is there anywhere that gives a list of chord names of the form:
>>>
>>>1,3,5 major
>>>1,b3,5 minor
>>>
>>>etc.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Tony D
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the helpful replies and links. I hope they help others who
>> subscribe to this ng. The style of music I've played for about four
>> decades, folk blues, doesn't call for much knowledge of chords. I've
>> become more interested in jazz, and it is only recently that I've
>> realised that the chord name depends on its intervals, not on the key it
>> is being played in. However, 7th chords are tricky, eg G7 should be
>> called Gb7 to be consistent, and dim7 is a bb7 and often seems to be the
>> chord implied when a diminished chord is required.
>>
>> Tony D
>>
>>
>
> The dominant seventh chord, for example G7, does, somewhat confusingly,
> contain a minor seventh interval rather than a major seventh.
>
> It's the dominant seventh chord in the key of C, which is something you
> just have to know. The F note in the chord is from the key of C, not the
> F# from the key of G. As you say, names depend on intervals, not
> necessarily on the key of the root note.

Thanks Stephen, that's the point I was making - that the G7 contains a note
that isn't in the G major diatonic scale, but I suppose it is better than
having to put it in brackets as you indicate. What about the higher
extensions? Which 7th does the 9th chord contain? In the case of the G9 I
think it is the F, not the F#. Reducing it to absurdity, what happens when
you get to the 15th? Would that be an F or an F#? I'm not making fun, this
kind of logical consistency, or lack of it, interests me.

Tony D


Stephen Calder

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Mar 27, 2006, 10:45:59 PM3/27/06
to
Tony Done wrote:
> "Stephen Calder" <calder...@in.com.au> wrote in message

>>>
>>>
>>


>>The dominant seventh chord, for example G7, does, somewhat confusingly,
>>contain a minor seventh interval rather than a major seventh.
>>
>>It's the dominant seventh chord in the key of C, which is something you
>>just have to know. The F note in the chord is from the key of C, not the
>>F# from the key of G. As you say, names depend on intervals, not
>>necessarily on the key of the root note.
>
>
> Thanks Stephen, that's the point I was making - that the G7 contains a note
> that isn't in the G major diatonic scale, but I suppose it is better than
> having to put it in brackets as you indicate. What about the higher
> extensions? Which 7th does the 9th chord contain?

Always the same as the dominant seventh. The extensions are add-ons to
the dominant seventh chord (which uses an F note in the example of G7 we
were using).


In the case of the G9 I
> think it is the F, not the F#.

Correct. The ninth note added is the ninth in the G scale, that is, the
note A.


Reducing it to absurdity, what happens when
> you get to the 15th?

Extensions above 13th are not used.


Would that be an F or an F#? I'm not making fun, this
> kind of logical consistency, or lack of it, interests me.

The thing to remember is that a seventh chord is based on the dominant
chord of a different scale. The dominant chord (fifth chord) of the C
scale (named the V [five] in the roman numeral system) is G and the
dominant seventh (V7) is G7. That's useful to know because a G7 tells
you that you are in, and can only be in, the key of C for that part of
the song. It's the biggest clue you'll get to the current key. The G7
means key of C.

Lumpy

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Mar 27, 2006, 11:23:34 PM3/27/06
to
Tony Done wrote:
> ...the point I was making - that the G7 contains
> a note that isn't in the G major diatonic scale...

Consider this...

1-3-5 and 7 are the "CHORD TONES" in traditional
music theory. The other tones, 2-4-6 (or 9-11-13)
are "tensions".

So...Build a chord out of the 4 CHORD TONES based
on any of the degrees of the major scale and you
get -

CEGB CM7
DFAC Dm7
EGBD Em7
FACE FM7
GBDF G7 (the dominant 7th)
ACEG Am7
BDFA B half dim 7 (Bm7b5 or BØ7)

The 7th notes fall on the logical notes
within the scale. There is no C7 chord
formed naturally from within the C Maj scale.
Whenever we see a chord that is simply G7, we
have to assume that it's a G Major chord with
a minor or flatted 7th. Or in more theoretically
"correct" terms it's a G Major chord with a 7th that
is based on the 5th or Dominant degree of the C scale.

It's sort of like saying "there is no Cm chord formed
from the C Major scale". So when we see the notation "C"
we assume it's a C Maj chord, not a C min.

Famous rule breaking songs:
"She's a Woman" - Beatles
"Suzie Q" - CCR
"I Saw Her Standing There" - Beatles
"You Can't Do That" - Beatles
"Ode to Billy Joe" - Bobby Gentry
"Walk Like an Egyptian" - Bangles

Those songs start on a I7 chord which is
NOT a Maj7 but a dom or flatted 7th chord.
And a lot of them include the IV7 chord which
is also not a Maj7 but a dom 7th chord.


Lumpy
--
Can you do that FM disc jockey voice?
Yes, but it doesn't translate well in ascii.
www.lumpyvoice.net


Kernix

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Mar 28, 2006, 8:20:46 AM3/28/06
to

Stephen Calder wrote:

> As for diminished chords, all you need to know is that they are stacked
> minor thirds. Each note is three semitones from the one below it.

That's true of a dim7 but not a 1/2 dim7 or m7b5 which has a M3
interval between the b5 and b7.


> You don't have to worry about double flats if you think of them this way.
>
> C diminished C-Eb-Gb
> C diminished seventh C-Eb-Gb-B

the 2nd chord would be a Cm-maj7b5 - rarely used but I did see it in a
Chuck Sher Standards book. Typo? Should the B be either a Bb (Cm7b5) or
A Co7)?

> The second chord is usually what is called for when you see a diminished
> chord label in sheet music for popular songs. The harmony theorists
> insist this is a wrong name,

What do the harmony theorists insist is the name? It would be
interesting to know. And I assume you are referring to a dim7 (o7)

> This statement has been designed to accurately represent the situation
> and no response from me about correctness of nomenclature will be
> forthcoming.

Huh? no response as to correctness - no offense meant, but then
shouldn't you make sure what you post is correct? And since it's a
beginner's site, why wouldn't you respond to a follow question?

Jim

Stephen Calder

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Mar 28, 2006, 9:34:44 AM3/28/06
to
Kernix wrote:

> Stephen Calder wrote:
>
>
>>As for diminished chords, all you need to know is that they are stacked
>>minor thirds. Each note is three semitones from the one below it.
>
>
> That's true of a dim7 but not a 1/2 dim7 or m7b5 which has a M3
> interval between the b5 and b7.

You're right. What is true of a diminished chord is not true of a half
diminished chord.

>
>
>
>>You don't have to worry about double flats if you think of them this way.
>>
>>C diminished C-Eb-Gb
>>C diminished seventh C-Eb-Gb-B
>
>
> the 2nd chord would be a Cm-maj7b5 - rarely used but I did see it in a
> Chuck Sher Standards book. Typo? Should the B be either a Bb (Cm7b5) or
> A Co7)?

Oops. Should be an A.

C diminished C-Eb-Gb-A.


>
>
>>The second chord is usually what is called for when you see a diminished
>>chord label in sheet music for popular songs. The harmony theorists
>>insist this is a wrong name,
>
>
> What do the harmony theorists insist is the name? It would be
> interesting to know. And I assume you are referring to a dim7 (o7)

The harmony theorists call it a diminished seventh.


>
>>This statement has been designed to accurately represent the situation
>>and no response from me about correctness of nomenclature will be
>>forthcoming.
>
>
> Huh? no response as to correctness - no offense meant, but then
> shouldn't you make sure what you post is correct?

Yes.


And since it's a
> beginner's site, why wouldn't you respond to a follow question?
>

I was warding off the music theorists. I have no interest in further
argument with them about the correct names of chords.

Kernix

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Mar 28, 2006, 10:31:00 AM3/28/06
to
That's cool - I'm into theory but there are definitely some people who
takes things too seriosly - for example I've just been told that a 6
chord / m7 is a dissonant chord - I always thought they sound really
sweet.

Jim

Lumpy

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Mar 28, 2006, 11:01:28 AM3/28/06
to
Stephen Calder wrote:
> C diminished C-Eb-Gb-A.

Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb

The 7th degree of the C scale is B. The
min 7th is Bb. The dim 7th is Bbb.

'A' is the 6th degree of the C scale,
not the 7th

> I was warding off the music theorists.
> I have no interest in further
> argument with them about the correct names of chords.

If you're not interested in the correct names
of chords, then why not call it an Em?


Lumpy
--
You were the "OPERATION" game voice?
Yes. Take out wrenched ankle.
www.lumpyvoice.com


Stephen Calder

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Mar 28, 2006, 11:07:31 AM3/28/06
to
Lumpy wrote:

> Stephen Calder wrote:
>
>>C diminished C-Eb-Gb-A.
>
>
> Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb
>
> The 7th degree of the C scale is B. The
> min 7th is Bb. The dim 7th is Bbb.

For any diminished chord just keep counting up three semitones up from
the note before and you don't have to worry about double flats.


>
> 'A' is the 6th degree of the C scale,
> not the 7th

Doesn't matter. The note is still A. Bbb just tells you how you got there.

>
>
>>I was warding off the music theorists.
>>I have no interest in further
>>argument with them about the correct names of chords.
>
>
> If you're not interested in the correct names
> of chords, then why not call it an Em?
>

It's argument I'm not interested in.

Lumpy

unread,
Mar 28, 2006, 11:32:36 AM3/28/06
to
Lumpy:

> > If you're not interested in the correct names
> > of chords, then why not call it an Em?

Stephen:


> It's argument I'm not interested in.

Then stop replying.

Your amateurish and incorrect attempts at
teaching music theory are doing an injustice
to those that want to learn. If you're not
interested in getting it right, shut pie hole.

snglstri...@aol.com

unread,
Mar 28, 2006, 11:42:39 AM3/28/06
to


I have a list on my site.
http://members.aol.com/snglstring2/chords/chordsyl.html

also a couple of lessons (free) on chords can be found at
http://members.aol.com/snglstring2/chords/index.html


peace,
Christopher Roberts

virtual

unread,
Mar 28, 2006, 11:45:54 AM3/28/06
to
In article <1143559860.6...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Kernix" <jimke...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is dissonant to one style is consonant to another. What is
consonant now was dissonant earlier.

At some point, the triton was called "diabolus in musica" (the devil in
music). Now it is considered very mild.

There is very little permanent and absolute in music. I think this is
good!

Stephen Calder

unread,
Mar 28, 2006, 12:20:15 PM3/28/06
to
Lumpy wrote:

> Lumpy:
>
>>>If you're not interested in the correct names
>>>of chords, then why not call it an Em?
>
>
> Stephen:
>
>>It's argument I'm not interested in.
>
>
> Then stop replying.
>
> Your amateurish and incorrect attempts at
> teaching music theory are doing an injustice
> to those that want to learn. If you're not
> interested in getting it right, shut pie hole.
>
>

You do a great job, Lumpy, well done.

Ravi

unread,
Mar 29, 2006, 3:36:31 AM3/29/06
to

>
> Do not give up tonality and key feeling too soon! Chords exist within a
> context and that context is (pun intended) the key to how they work.
>
> Chords need both a structure (which intervals they contain), and a
> function (tonic - dominant - sub-dominant).

Other posts have mentioned that when you see a G7 chord, it tells you
that the song is
in the key of C.

So how about the Beatles "I saw her standing there", which starts off
with E7 A7 and then B7 chords. Where is the tonality there?

And how do you apply the theory? There are 3 dominant 7 chords in the
opening of that that. Which one tells you the key of the song?

Kernix

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Mar 29, 2006, 9:15:13 AM3/29/06
to
You have to understand:

In any major key there is only one dom7 chord, so songs that stay
within the key tend to only have that one 7th chord. But it is more
common to see songs that do not stay in one key. One of the most common
ways to use chords that are not in the key is what's called five
substitutions - or V subs. For example - G7 is the V chord in C major,
and that V chord is very useful for getting back to the C chord. The
logic is to use the chord that is great for getting to the G or G7 -
and that would be a D7 borrowed from the key of G major. So now we
could have a chord progression that goes D7-G7-C. And you could keep up
the V substitutions by trowing in the could that gets you smoothly to
the D7 - an A7 - A7-D7-G7-C - that would be a V of V of V substitution,
Jazzers will also commonly use a b5 substitution - using a Gb7 to C.

And there there's 'da blues. The most common form of blues involves the
I, IV & V chord played as dom7's in a 12 bar format. The example you
use above involving E7, A7, B7 would be E blues and would be "commonly"
be played:

| E7 / / / | E7 / / / | E7 / / / | E7 / / / |
| A7 / / / | A7 / / / | E7 / / / | E7 / / / |
| B7 / / / | A7 / / / | E7 / / / | B7 / / / |

Jim

Nil

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Mar 29, 2006, 11:12:07 AM3/29/06
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On 29 Mar 2006, "Ravi" <mr_rav...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1143621390.9...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> So how about the Beatles "I saw her standing there", which starts
> off with E7 A7 and then B7 chords. Where is the tonality there?

That song is a blues. In blues, you can throw out or bend and break
much of the conventional harmony "rules". One blues feature that you
see here is to make every chord a dominant 7. You may notice that the
chord sequence is still a tradional I IV V progression, which is uses
in blues styles, tin pan alley, classical, etc. But each chord is made
a dom. 7 in order to give the song the stereotypical blues tang. It's a
stylistic thing that overrides traditional theory, and sounds good to
our ears because we've been hearing those kinds of sounds for the last
century or more.

Ravi

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Apr 8, 2006, 7:07:00 PM4/8/06
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Kernix wrote:
> You have to understand:
>
> In any major key there is only one dom7 chord, so songs that stay
> within the key tend to only have that one 7th chord. But it is more
> common to see songs that do not stay in one key. One of the most common
> ways to use chords that are not in the key is what's called five
> substitutions - or V subs. For example - G7 is the V chord in C major,
> and that V chord is very useful for getting back to the C chord. The
> logic is to use the chord that is great for getting to the G or G7 -
> and that would be a D7 borrowed from the key of G major.

Thanks! I think I get it.

I think that's what might be happening in "Piano Man" by Billy Joel.
The song is in C but it goes from Am D7 G7 C.

I couldn't figure out what the D7 was doing there but now I see that
it's trying to get back to the C chord.

V subs are pretty cool. Makes things sound more interesting.

guitarmiami

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Apr 21, 2006, 4:08:53 AM4/21/06
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On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:07:00 -0700, Ravi wrote:

>
> Kernix wrote:
>> You have to understand:
>>
>> In any major key there is only one dom7 chord, so songs that stay
>> within the key tend to only have that one 7th chord. But it is more
>> common to see songs that do not stay in one key. One of the most common
>> ways to use chords that are not in the key is what's called five
>> substitutions - or V subs. For example - G7 is the V chord in C major,
>> and that V chord is very useful for getting back to the C chord. The
>> logic is to use the chord that is great for getting to the G or G7 -
>> and that would be a D7 borrowed from the key of G major.
>
> Thanks! I think I get it.
>
> I think that's what might be happening in "Piano Man" by Billy Joel.
> The song is in C but it goes from Am D7 G7 C.
>
> I couldn't figure out what the D7 was doing there but now I see that
> it's trying to get back to the C chord.

There is also a ii-V-I progression in there which is very common.

These are the triad chords in the key of G:

G Major
A minor
B minor
C Major
D Dom. 7th
E minor
F# Diminshed

ii-V-I in G Major is:
Am D7 G

Change the G to a G7 and that becomes the V7 of C which resolves nicely.

The ii chord is also built on the 5 degree of the V chord with a minor
quality -- so Am is built on the 5th degree of D. The root note in a
ii-V-I progression is going 5 to 1 and then 5 to 1 again which is one of
the reasons it sounds so good.

ii-V-I is good to use when you want to change keys. You could be in
the key of C and then use ii-V-I in G to change to the key of G like this:

C then... Am D7 G... (now in the key of G)

Then ii-V-I in the key of D to get into D:
Em A7 D (now in the key of D)

Then Dm G7 and back to C... or to any key with the ii-V-I of the new key.
It's used in jazz a lot, but often with 7th chords (e.g., Dm7 G13 CMaj7).
If you look for it you will find it everywhere...


--
http://www.guitarmiami.com/guitar-teachers.htm
Guitar teachers in Miami, Florida...

Ravi

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Apr 22, 2006, 6:57:47 PM4/22/06
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guitarmiami wrote:

> These are the triad chords in the key of G:
>
> G Major
> A minor
> B minor
> C Major
> D Dom. 7th
> E minor
> F# Diminshed
>

Thanks.

Why is D Dom. 7th considered a "triad chord"? It contains 4 notes.

Nil

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Apr 22, 2006, 7:31:42 PM4/22/06
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On 22 Apr 2006, "Ravi" <mr_rav...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1145746667.2...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

>> G Major
>> A minor
>> B minor
>> C Major
>> D Dom. 7th
>> E minor
>> F# Diminshed
>
> Thanks.
>
> Why is D Dom. 7th considered a "triad chord"? It contains 4 notes.

That's a mistake. It should read "D major".

guitarmiami

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Apr 23, 2006, 6:20:40 AM4/23/06
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Typo :)

People will often play the dom 7th, even when the other chords are triads.

--
http://www.guitarmiami.com/miami-guitar-events.htm
Miami guitar calendar of events...

googledawg

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Apr 23, 2006, 7:18:36 PM4/23/06
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that c-Eb-Gb-B still doesn't make sense - B is NOT a minor third higher
than Gb - Bb is a MAJOR third, and Bb FLAT is a minor third. YES -
Bbb IS enharmonic with A - i've seent texts call a diminished seventh
chord a m6b5 chord - OK, describes the structure without regard to the
history/nomencalture evolution.

a Major interval made smaller by half stetp is a minor interval - a
perfect or minor interval made smaller by a half step is called a
diminished interval, so a seventh made smaller TWICE is a diminished
seventh. NO MATTER what other intervals are involved.

HOWEVER, when you refer to chords and chord types - the dim 7 is
numerically 1-b3-b5-bb7.
a m6b5 is 1-b3-b5-6

you are correct sir - it is NOT advisable to SWEAT too much over the
naming of chords, since a chord by any other name still sounds as sweet
as a consonant m7 chord. consonance/dissonance, as someone pointed
out is a PROCESS, not yet completed.

AT first, a 7b5 chord sounds pretty bent. soon, you can't imagine
life without it. there is a website link on one of these forums to
some MICROTONAL (octave's NOT tuned equally, and divided into MORE than
12 tones) music. after a little bit of that, plain old altered
chords will sound pretty normal.

and a dominant seventh chord does NOT have to be in any key - it's
called a dominant severnth, party because of historic reasons, but
MOSTLY because it dominates a key center, which may or may not follow,
and if it does, may not be there for more than a beat or two! the
reason is becasue of the tritone that appears betweent the 3rd and
seventh, which fiercely wants to "resolve", to a chord whose root is a
perfect fourth higher (G7>C)

D7 wants to go to G, which might be a G9b5 (just a fancy seventh
chord), which wants to go to C. the more alterations and suspensions
and extensions you throw in there, the harder it "leans" toward the
next chord. actually, if you play ALL the tones of a G13, you already
HAVE the C chord sounding - on the way to C and already THERE at the
same time!

have fun!

Stephen Calder

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Apr 24, 2006, 5:27:33 AM4/24/06
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googledawg wrote:

> that c-Eb-Gb-B still doesn't make sense - B is NOT a minor third higher
> than Gb - Bb is a MAJOR third, and Bb FLAT is a minor third.

You're right it should be A (Bbb).

C diminished: C-Eb-Gb-A


YES -
> Bbb IS enharmonic with A - i've seent texts call a diminished seventh
> chord a m6b5 chord - OK, describes the structure without regard to the
> history/nomencalture evolution.
>
> a Major interval made smaller by half stetp is a minor interval - a
> perfect or minor interval made smaller by a half step is called a
> diminished interval, so a seventh made smaller TWICE is a diminished
> seventh. NO MATTER what other intervals are involved.

Yes.


>
> HOWEVER, when you refer to chords and chord types - the dim 7 is
> numerically 1-b3-b5-bb7.

Yes

> a m6b5 is 1-b3-b5-6

I'll take your word for it.

>
> have fun!
>

Always

Lumpy

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Apr 24, 2006, 8:10:29 AM4/24/06
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Stephen Calder wrote:

> C diminished: C-Eb-Gb-A

C diminished = C Eb Gb
C dim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb

It sounds the same if you call that 7th note
an A instead of a Bbb. But it violates the
theory of why it's a 7th.

The 7th note of the C scale is B.
The min 7th interval is Bb.
The dim 7th interval is Bbb.

The note 'A' is the 6th degree of the C scale.


Lumpy
--
You were the Tidy Bowl Guy?
Yes. I'm cleaning your bathroom bowl.
www.lumpyvoice.org


sycochkn

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Apr 24, 2006, 8:35:02 AM4/24/06
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"Stephen Calder" <calder...@in.com.au> wrote in message
news:444c9a05$0$491$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

It should probably be named Cdim7

C diminished 7th
Cdim7,
C , , ,Eb, , ,Gb, , ,Bbb
C to Eb, minor 3rd, 3 semi-tones
C to Gb, diminished 5th, 6 semi-tones
C to Bbb, diminished 7th, 9 semi-tones

so as not to confuse it with Cdim

C diminished
Cdim,
C , , ,Eb, , ,Gb
1 b3 b5
C to Eb, minor 3rd, 3 semi-tones
C to Gb, diminished 5th, 6 semi-tones

Bob


Stephen Calder

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Apr 24, 2006, 9:47:50 AM4/24/06
to
Lumpy wrote:
> Stephen Calder wrote:
>
>
>>C diminished: C-Eb-Gb-A
>
>
> C diminished = C Eb Gb
> C dim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb
>
> It sounds the same if you call that 7th note
> an A instead of a Bbb. But it violates the
> theory of why it's a 7th.
>
> The 7th note of the C scale is B.
> The min 7th interval is Bb.
> The dim 7th interval is Bbb.
>
> The note 'A' is the 6th degree of the C scale.
>
>


You're absolutely right.

Unfortunately the Cdim7 chord is also often, confusingly and in the
opinion of many, wrongly, called a Cdim. So when you see a Cdim chord
you can almost always assume that what is meant is a Cdim7.

googledawg

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Apr 24, 2006, 1:01:04 PM4/24/06
to
YES!

there IS a difference between the C dim chord and the C dim7 chord, the
dim contains only
the triad, and the diminished 7th contains the 7th.

Actually, the origin of the diminished chord gives some insight into
it's naming issues. the chord appears
as the diatonic vii chord in a Harmonic minor scale.

But, let's back up ANOTHER space---WHY is there a Harmonic minor?
because the Natural Minor

(key of C, or relative minor, A minor) scale would be spelled
a-b-c-d-e-f-g. The whole step from the 7th degree to the octave
provides no "leading tone", which is a tone a half-step from something,
and as such has great tension, providing half the harmonic resource
that music uses, the other being rest.

OK, so some genius centuries ago, simply RAISED the seventh degree to
G#, giving the scale a leading tone, and providing a wonderful "spooky"
sound to at at the same time. (sorry, totally subjective).

Understanding that there is a chord associated with each scale degree
would be the next step - for instance, the chord built on the First
degree would be a-c-e, a simple a minor chord. applying the system of
chords being built in thirds, we then have b-d-f, for the (2) chord,
notated ii in ancent and modern times. continuing the process will
give you an assortment of chords, of which the V chord is indeed a
major chord, because of the G#, and as such, has STRONG resolution
tendences to the I chord, or i (lower case, cuz it's minor)

NOW----applying that same technique one step further, we are able to
construct a "seventh" chord upon each degree of the scale - the
"seventh" being in quotes, BECAUSE there are VARIETIES involved, the
same as with 3rds and 5ths.

since you've seen the lists, you can take verbatim the fact that the
vii (7) chord, the one built on the seventh degree of the scale, is a
fully diminished seventh chord,,,both by tones, AND by spelling. -
that is:

G# - B [minor 3rd]
B - D [minor 3rd]
D- F (minor 3rd]
and consequently f > G# is another minor third.

applying the priniciple of using a separate letter name for each degree
of the scale (note: there are those who argue about this, but i don't
see where they are coming from) - then F is indeed the 7th step of G#,
easy to see that the MAJOR seventh of G# would be a half-step lower,
and in the KEY of G# would be called F## -

THEN, F# is the minor seventh and F natural is the DIMINISHED SEVENTH.

NOW - quit thinking about it and do this:

if a diminished 7th chord is constructed of all minor thirds, then anye
ONE of the four tones COULD be the root, and inverting the chord ON
THE GUITAR is accomplished by simply moving the chord up or down,
exactly a minor third, or 3 frets at a time....gives you something to
do in your spare time, (especially the last 3 beats of a measure)

Lumpy

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Apr 24, 2006, 4:53:37 PM4/24/06
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googledawg wrote:
> ...if a diminished 7th chord is constructed of all

> minor thirds, then anye ONE of the four tones
> COULD be the root, and inverting the chord
> ON THE GUITAR is accomplished by simply moving
> the chord up or down, exactly a minor third, or
> 3 frets at a time....gives you something to
> do in your spare time, (especially the last
> 3 beats of a measure)...

It's the "He tied her on the railroad tracks"
progression.


Lumpy
--
How do you do an AM radio voice?
Doesn't really matter. Nobody listens to AM.
www.lumpyvoice.net

googledawg

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Apr 24, 2006, 5:16:29 PM4/24/06
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Exactly !

Tension ! Suspense ! Will Dudley Doo Right make it in time?!?!?

Tune in (NO pun intended- it just happens to musicians all the time)
next week !!!

See if the diminished 7th chord is properly resolved!

Where will voice leading take us? Will we arrive at our tonic
destination? What possible suspensions
and anticipations could occur along the way?

You won't want to miss our next exciting episode of : CHORD
NAMING!!!!!

See also

Chord Progressions, Regular Resolutions, Irregular Resolutions,
Demented Ninth chords and those who toy with them -
(a continuation of music theory brought to you by centuries of
evolution)....

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