Perfect 5th
Thomas
major 3rd or perfect 4th and perfect 5th. Im guessing a major 3rd is a 3rd
that is not flattened (Lumpy will straighten me out if Im wrong) but what
is perfect 4th and perfect 5th? Why not just say 5th? Thanks.
Thomas
Nil
alt.guitar.beginner:
Because there are other flavors of 5ths and 4ths than perfect. They are
obtained by raising or lowering the interval. The common ones are
Perfect 4th (6 semitones from the tonic)
Augmented 4th (7 semitones)
Diminished 5th (7 semitones - same pitch as an +4)
Perfect 5th (8 semitones)
Augmented 5th (9 semitones)
hcbowman
The names of intervals are based on the major scale that starts with
the lower note in the interval. The number part of the name comes
from the scale degree of the upper note, and "major" (2nd, 3rd, 6th,
and 7th) and "perfect" (unison, 4th, 5th, octave) intervals are those
whose upper notes appear in the scale.
The reason that some intervals are "perfect" rather than "major" is
that if you invert them, the resulting interval has both notes that
appear in the major scale of the (new) lower note. For example, a
perfect fifth based on C contains C and G. Inverting the interval
gives you G to C (a perfect 4th), where C is in the G major scale.
Note that a major third based on C contains C and E. Inverting this
gives you E to C (a minor 6th), where C is not in the major scale
based on E.
--Cliff (US)
RichL
Off by an extra semitone in each case (hint: count frets on a guitar but
don't count where you started!). But otherwise a good description of
why we use the modifier "perfect".
Nil
alt.guitar.beginner:
> Off by an extra semitone in each case (hint: count frets on a
> guitar but don't count where you started!). But otherwise a good
> description of why we use the modifier "perfect".
Oops, you're right, I miscounted. This is what I should have said:
Perfect 4th (5 semitones from the tonic)
Augmented 4th (6 semitones)
Diminished 5th (6 semitones - same pitch as an +4)
Perfect 5th (7 semitones)
Augmented 5th (8 semitones)
Tony Done
"Nil" <rednoi...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9AD2B4C6...@216.196.97.136...
Is there any music theory (which I find arcane) that recognises a dim 4th,
the same interval as a major 3rd?
Tony D
Nil
alt.guitar.beginner:
> Is there any music theory (which I find arcane) that recognises a
> dim 4th, the same interval as a major 3rd?
Yes there is, and you just named it: if you flatten a perfect 4th, you
will have a diminished 4th. But there are next to no practical reasons
to refer the the interval in that way - it's the same pitch as a major
3rd, and you will almost see it referred to as such.
Trimble Bracegirdle
the
notes as defined because of there mechanical , fixed mathematical
properties.
A player might choose to play the 4th or 5th note he is using as anything he
chooses.
The 'Perfect' 4th , 5th etc. is a fixed real world physical relation to the
root note .
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") mouse
Ravi
I think I follow this.
But how about the other answer given in this thread (it's called a
"perfect fourth" to distinguish between augmented fourth and perfect
fourth?
Is that also another reason?
hcbowman
> But how about the other answer given in this thread (it's called a
> "perfect fourth" to distinguish between augmented fourth and perfect
> fourth?
Hi, and sorry for the confusion. Each answer is right but only tells
part of the story.
There are two questions being answered:
1. Why do we have to give the *quality* (major, minor, perfect,
augmented, etc.) of an interval?
2. When we give the quality of of an interval, why do we use
different systems (major/minor versus diminished/perfect/augmented)
for different intervals?
Other posters answered question #1, saying basically that there are
different kinds of "fourths" -- perfect, diminished, and augmented.
These intervals differ in the number of semitones between the upper
and lower note, so just saying "fourth" is ambiguous.
I answered question #2, saying basically that whether we use major/
minor or diminished/perfect/augmented depends upon what happens when
we invert the interval. We use major/minor for 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th
intervals because major intervals (say, the major 3rd of F up to A)
become minor intervals (the minor 6th from A to F natural) when
inverted. We say "perfect" for intervals that stay "perfect" when
inverted, such as A to D (perfect fourth) and D to A (perfect fifth).
In this system, "augmented" intervals (say, the augmented fourth E to
A#) become "diminished" intervals (A# to E, a diminished 5th) when
inverted, and vice-versa.
--Cliff (US)
Paul P
Cliff (US) writes :
> We say "perfect" for intervals that stay "perfect" when
> inverted, such as A to D (perfect fourth) and D to A (perfect fifth).
I was under the impression that the term perfect had more to
do with harmony, in that the fifth and fourth are very nice
sounding (harmonious) being low integer ratios of frequencies
(3:2 for the fifth, 4:3 for the fourth). The term was used
before the even tempered scale was invented so the ratios were
exact. They aren't any more with the even tempered tuning like
the piano and guitar, which are never completely harmonious
because the ratios are all irrational so the vibrations never
line up.
For more info see Wikipedia :
Perfect fourth : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fourth
Perfect fifth : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fifth
Paul P
Ravi
> On 05 Jul 2008, "Thomas" <n...@none.com> wrote in
> alt.guitar.beginner:
>
> > When describing the major scale ive noticed that some material
> > will say major 3rd or perfect 4th and perfect 5th. Im guessing a
> > major 3rd is a 3rd that is not flattened (Lumpy will straighten
> > me out if Im wrong) but what is perfect 4th and perfect 5th? Why
> > not just say 5th? Thanks.
>
> Because there are other flavors of 5ths and 4ths than perfect.
IOK, if we just say "a third" it is ambiguous, (is it a Minor 3rd or
Major 3rd?) so we call it a Major 3rd to make it clear .
Likewise, why not just say "Major 4th"? That would seem sufficient to
distinguish it between an augmented 4th.
Lumpy
> ...why not just say "Major 4th"? That would seem sufficient to
> distinguish it between an augmented 4th.
Because there is no such thing as a Major 4th.
Why don't we call a guitar a hot dog?
Because it's called a guitar.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.LumpyMusic.com
hcbowman
>
> I was under the impression that the term perfect had more to
> do with harmony, in that the fifth and fourth are very nice
> sounding (harmonious) being low integer ratios of frequencies
> (3:2 for the fifth, 4:3 for the fourth). The term was used
> before the even tempered scale was invented so the ratios were
> exact.
I always felt uncomfortable with that explanation because "low integer
ratio" seems vague. In some tuning systems (for example, Ramos'), a
major 3rd is at a ratio of 5:4 above the tonic. I can't see why
that's not a "low integer ratio."
> For more info see Wikipedia :
>
> Perfect fourth :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fourth
> Perfect fifth :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fifth
Citing Wikipedia has caused me nothing but headaches. Take a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)
which talks about both the consonance of intervals you mentioned and
the inversion reasoning I mentioned.
--Cliff (US)
Lumpy
it's called Perfect, here's some info
about altered intervals.
ADD one half step to any MAJOR or any
PERFECT interval, it's now called AUGMENTED
SUBTRACT one half step from any MAJOR interval,
it's now called MINOR
SUBTRACT one half step from any MINOR or from
any PERFECT interval, it's now called DIMINISHED
Bob Dylan sings any of those intervals,
it's now called DEMOLISHED
Nil
alt.guitar.beginner:
> IOK, if we just say "a third" it is ambiguous, (is it a Minor 3rd or
> Major 3rd?) so we call it a Major 3rd to make it clear .
Convention. Major and minor thirds are just about equally common. If
you don't specify the flavor, you have almost a 50/50 chance of being
misunderstood. You need to be specific.
> Likewise, why not just say "Major 4th"? That would seem sufficient to
> distinguish it between an augmented 4th.
Convention. Most 4ths an 5ths in common Western tonal music are
perfect. If you are referring to those intervals but don't specify, you
are still likely to communicate your meaning. It's still best to
specify.
But the term "major 4th" is not part of the musical language. There IS
NO "major 4th" or "major 5th." I believe there is a historical and
perhaps scientific justification for the term "perfect", but I've
forgotten what it is. But forget your invented term - you will not be
understood.
Learnwell
> perhaps scientific justification for the term "perfect", but I've
> forgotten what it is.
You are correct, it began with Rameau's treatise on harmony in the
early 18th century. It has to do with the invertibility of the fourth
and fifth (and the octave for that matter), but someone already
pointed that out. There is further information to be gleaned from the
theory of invertibility as it was first proposed in Rameau's treatise.
>But forget your invented term - you will not be
> understood.
This is good advice, might as well speak the language.
Rick N. Backer
<rednoi...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> did courageously avow:
Something akin to saying you add a #4 to a pentatonic scale to make a
blues scale, but nobody does, they all say flat 5.
--
Ken Wilson
http://www.myspace.com/bcislander
Rick N. Backer
did courageously avow:
Actually, I always call a 4th a 4th. The only places I hear perfect
used in terms of the 4th and 5th is in here when people get all
excited about what it means to be perfect. That said ...
In my mental picture I see the perfect 4 as where one | | || ends and
the perfect 5th where one | | || begins. A perfect split of the
octave.
Pt
The only places I hear perfect
> used in terms of the 4th and 5th is in here when people get all
> excited about what it means to be perfect.
The only one around here that's perfect is Lumpy.
Pt
hcbowman
> Bob Dylan sings
I never thought I'd hear you say that. =)
--Cliff (US)
Learnwell
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
So THAT is what that awful ringing has been.
David Raleigh Arnold
There are four types of 3rds: dim, min, maj, and aug. There are only
three types of 4ths or fifths: dim, perfect, and aug. A major interval
when inverted is minor and vice versa. Perfect intevals are perfect when
inverted. Maj and min is necessary to describe 3rds and sixths, but not
5ths or 4ths.
Every major key has the single dim fifth on its 7th degree. daveA
--
email: darn...@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The very best technical exercises for all guitarists:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html.
A few minutes of effort to make it sound right as written is
worth a thousand hours of trying to rewrite it, and even if
you do end in rewriting it, the result will be a million times
better if you do the few minutes first.
Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Charmed Snark
4ax.com:
> Actually, I always call a 4th a 4th. The only places I hear perfect
> used in terms of the 4th and 5th is in here when people get all
> excited about what it means to be perfect. That said ...
If you forget to name "perfect" 4th in Royal Conservatory
exams, you will not get full marks (if any).
Snark.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Charmed Snark
> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:06:05 -0700, Thomas wrote:
>
>> When describing the major scale ive noticed that some material will
>> say major 3rd or perfect 4th and perfect 5th. Im guessing a major
>> 3rd is a 3rd that is not flattened (Lumpy will straighten me out if
>> Im wrong) but what is perfect 4th and perfect 5th? Why not just say
>> 5th? Thanks.
>>
>> Thomas
>
> There are four types of 3rds: dim, min, maj, and aug. There are only
> three types of 4ths or fifths: dim, perfect, and aug. A major interval
> when inverted is minor and vice versa. Perfect intevals are perfect
> when inverted. Maj and min is necessary to describe 3rds and sixths,
> but not 5ths or 4ths.
>
> Every major key has the single dim fifth on its 7th degree. daveA
Back in April, I posted the entire chart in an article
titled " Music Theory: Intervals 101", which you can
google:
Essentially the article boils down to:
The general relative pecking order is :
Diminished
Minor |
| Perfect
Major |
Augmented
("Perfect" replaces minor/major when
minor/major does not apply).
The chart:
SEMITONAL ORDINARY ENHARMONIC
INTERVAL INTERVAL-TYPE EQUIVALENT
========= ============= ============
0 Unison (1st) Diminished 2nd
1 Minor 2nd Augmented unison
2 Major 2nd Diminished 3rd
3 Minor 3rd Augmented 2nd
4 Major 3rd Diminished 4th
5 Perfect 4th Augmented 3rd
6 Augmented 4th Diminished 5th
7 Perfect 5th Diminished 6th
8 Minor 6th Augmented 5th
9 Major 6th Diminished 7th
10 Minor 7th Augmented 6th
11 Major 7th Diminished Octave
12 Perfect Octave Augmented 7th
There is more information in the article to suggest
how you might memorize and digest all this. I
should probably review it again myself, just
to refresh those greying memory cells.
Charmed Snark
> Ravi wrote:
>> ...why not just say "Major 4th"? That would seem sufficient to
>> distinguish it between an augmented 4th.
>
> Because there is no such thing as a Major 4th.
> Why don't we call a guitar a hot dog?
> Because it's called a guitar.
>
> Lumpy
I thought that Hot Dog was Led Zeppelin.
David Raleigh Arnold
Your chart is not related to the scale, or rather the list of
notes, and that lack of relation is ultimately just confusing.
There is a dim 5 in a diatonic scale, but no aug 4th without
inversion or alteration.
Why an aug 2 and no dim 3? The answer is obvious to anyone who
knows all this already, but the task is to make it obvious to
all. daveA
Lumpy
> There is a dim 5 in a diatonic scale, but no aug 4th without
> inversion or alteration.
What's IV - VII?
Lumpy
You Played on Lawrence Welk?
Yes but no blue notes. Just blue hairs.
David Raleigh Arnold
You're right. I was considering only intervals which build
chords, which IMO is the way to go. daveA
Learnwell
Triads in melodic minor: IV ascending, VII descending.
Stephen Calder
> David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
>> There is a dim 5 in a diatonic scale, but no aug 4th without
>> inversion or alteration.
>
> What's IV - VII?
>
>
It's a chord sequence, not an interval.
--
Stephen
Ballina, Australia
Lumpy
David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
> > > There is a dim 5 in a diatonic scale, but no aug 4th without
> > > inversion or alteration.
Calder:
> > What's IV - VII?
Lump:
> It's a chord sequence, not an interval.
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory8.htm
"The eight degrees of the scale may be numbered using
1 - 8 or Roman numerals I - VIII
(i.e. I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII)
or i - viii (i.e. i, ii, iii, iv, v, vi, vii, viii)"
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years