This Is It
dusto...@mac.com
Jackson (may have, reportedly, etc. etc.) did bad things.
What a shame they didn't get to put on that show, as it looked to be
something really special.
Jackson: Dancing and singing, IMHO, better than ever. Yeah, the movie
runs a little "long" but I don't know what I'd want to leave out.
One movie I'll go see again soon (short first run means "real soon").
BTW/FWIW, I'm not one of the completely whipped Michael Jackson fans
as shown early on. He's not a way of life, IOW.
--D-y
Les Cargill
You mispelled Quincy Jones.
--
Les Cargill
js
Quincy Jones created Pop for the King,
And Michael Jackson had sex with young boys.
/bucketoffish
"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hd7gip$cvc$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
Les Cargill
> C'mon now, well all know who was responsible for what by now.
>
> Quincy Jones created Pop for the King,
>
> And Michael Jackson had sex with young boys.
>
That's not funny. Q paid a price for this, too.
You guys are supposed to be the sophisticated ones, the
Guys Who Know. I don't even have to denigrate Micheal
Jackson's considerable talent to make the point that
it was Quincy Jones who made those records, that that
is the truth and the end of it.
Micheal Jackson never rode the chitlin circuit. The
harshness of his life wasn't the kind others made
great art out of. He was somebody who lived a lie.
I guess the habit never went away - Q still
went in through the help entrance, and never
really took credit. He was gonna let the kid
take all the fire.
The calculating cynicism of it all is just...
breathtaking. It is genius, but it's not
something that inspires a sense of pride.
--
Les Cargill
js
need, and only have had to put up with a scant fraction the "fame"
bullshit.
Lighten up, already.
"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hd7svp$hlc$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Gary Rosen
You know, somehow I don't think we're
gonna see Quincy by a freeway entrance
holding a sign "WILL ARRANGE FOR FOOD".
- Gary Rosen
dusto...@mac.com
> You guys are supposed to be the sophisticated ones, the
> Guys Who Know.
Oh boy, did I not ever say anything like that about myself, let alone
begin to think I'm some kind of insider, etc. etc.
> I don't even have to denigrate Micheal
> Jackson's considerable talent
which is what I was referring to, as seen in the movie
> to make the point that
> it was Quincy Jones who made those records, that that
> is the truth and the end of it.
I was 13 or maybe 14 the first time I heard "It's My Party" by Leslie
Gore, live AM on my 8-transistor (!!!) personal radio, an amazing
device that was about the size of a pack of Marlboros in the hard pack
(amazing technology. You had to have one to be cool. Thanks, mom and
dad!) Didn't know nuthin' about QJ at the time, or for a good while
after. Whatever, that was a big hit, and in hindsight it compared to
Spector's stuff, and whatever else was on the box. So QJ "made" Leslie
Gore, too, to at least some extent? What of it? That's what producers
do.
The point is, Quincy Jones wasn't up on the screen singing and dancing
his ass off-- whoops, is MJ a fraud because he has a choreographer and
other staff? Was he supposed to multitrack all the instruments, and
hey, rig the friggin' stage, too?
> Micheal Jackson never rode the chitlin circuit.
Quincy Jones rode Jeri Caldwell, Ulla Anderson, Peggy Lipton, Carol
Reynolds, and Natassja Kinski.
Mmmm mmmm, there's a chitlin circuit we'd all like to get on, no
matter how bad we had to suffer <g>.
Musically, Jones' chitlin circuit included living and touring in
Europe, living in NYC while arranging for Sinatra, Basie, and others.
He dropped out of Schillinger House (later Berklee) while there on
scholarship to tour with Lionel Hampton. Lived in Paris, studied with
Boulanger and Messiaen. So on and so forth (just scammin' from Wiki),
not much mention of actual chitlins did I see.
> The
> harshness of his life wasn't the kind others made
> great art out of. He was somebody who lived a lie.
I guess we have one who isn't going to see This Is It (<g>).
> I guess the habit never went away - Q still
> went in through the help entrance, and never
> really took credit.
????
Even ignorant me knew Quincy Jones "did" for MJ, because there was a
lot of publicity IRT those peak years for MJ and Quincy Jones was
certainly in the limelight with MJ.
> He was gonna let the kid
> take all the fire.
Well, as long as he wasn't tag-teaming "little boys" with MJ
(presumably being much too busy keeping Peggy Lipton pregnant,
barefoot, and in the kitchen, along with other, professional
activities), why would he have to "take any fire"?
> The calculating cynicism of it all is just...
> breathtaking. It is genius, but it's not
> something that inspires a sense of pride.
OK OK: I just went and watched the movie.
I don't care about "Michael Jackson" one way or the other. We used to
play "Ben" as a joke (ha ha, a love song to a rat); the Jackson Five
was just another "act", I never bought any J5 or MJ records or CD's.
Nope, but I did see him on the Motown TV special (ca. 1984-5) where he
lit up what had been a pretty dismal evening. That's "Michael Jackson"
for me.
Oh yeah, it has come out that MJ _didn't invent the Moonwalk_!!!!
Damn! Whoops, I mean "who cares"?
I'm not trying to tell you how or what to think, if it sounds like it.
Just sayin' I don't think the same.
PBS radio played "Billie Jean" as a vocal-track-only tribute to
Michael when he died. The man could sing and dance. What a shame that
show didn't get to play, it would have been... killer.
--D-y
dusto...@mac.com
> Nope, but I did see him on the Motown TV special (ca. 1984-5) where he
> lit up what had been a pretty dismal evening. That's "Michael Jackson"
> for me.
May 16, 1983.
The date was fuzzy, I looked it up. Saw most of the performance again,
too.
The state of the art, specifically but not limited to the Moonwalk and
the Crotchgrab, as seen in This Is It, is far, far advanced <g>.
(over and out) --D-y
Les Cargill
> He also made more money off of his "Thriller" points than anyone could ever
> need, and only have had to put up with a scant fraction the "fame"
> bullshit.
>
Yep. That's exactly the point.
> Lighten up, already.
>
Okay then.
<snip>
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> On Nov 8, 7:58 pm, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> You guys are supposed to be the sophisticated ones, the
>> Guys Who Know.
>
> Oh boy, did I not ever say anything like that about myself, let alone
> begin to think I'm some kind of insider, etc. etc.
>
Nah, it's just that bass players are generally more analytical. I
didn't mean to sound that rough.
>> I don't even have to denigrate Micheal
>> Jackson's considerable talent
>
> which is what I was referring to, as seen in the movie
>
>> to make the point that
>> it was Quincy Jones who made those records, that that
>> is the truth and the end of it.
>
> I was 13 or maybe 14 the first time I heard "It's My Party" by Leslie
> Gore, live AM on my 8-transistor (!!!) personal radio, an amazing
> device that was about the size of a pack of Marlboros in the hard pack
> (amazing technology. You had to have one to be cool. Thanks, mom and
> dad!) Didn't know nuthin' about QJ at the time, or for a good while
> after. Whatever, that was a big hit, and in hindsight it compared to
> Spector's stuff, and whatever else was on the box. So QJ "made" Leslie
> Gore, too, to at least some extent? What of it? That's what producers
> do.
>
No, I know.
> The point is, Quincy Jones wasn't up on the screen singing and dancing
> his ass off-- whoops, is MJ a fraud because he has a choreographer and
> other staff? Was he supposed to multitrack all the instruments, and
> hey, rig the friggin' stage, too?
>
:) Good response. But the whole thing, the whole way the youth culture
has gone oh so horribly wrong....
>> Micheal Jackson never rode the chitlin circuit.
>
> Quincy Jones rode Jeri Caldwell, Ulla Anderson, Peggy Lipton, Carol
> Reynolds, and Natassja Kinski.
> Mmmm mmmm, there's a chitlin circuit we'd all like to get on, no
> matter how bad we had to suffer <g>.
>
This is true.
> Musically, Jones' chitlin circuit included living and touring in
> Europe, living in NYC while arranging for Sinatra, Basie, and others.
> He dropped out of Schillinger House (later Berklee) while there on
> scholarship to tour with Lionel Hampton. Lived in Paris, studied with
> Boulanger and Messiaen. So on and so forth (just scammin' from Wiki),
> not much mention of actual chitlins did I see.
>
i dunno if he actually rode that circuit - I was saying
that Micheal never did. Maybe if he'd paid those dues,
he would have been more grounded.
I have less than no use for Micheal Jackson. It's the
cultural trainwreck and what it means that bothers me.
>> The
>> harshness of his life wasn't the kind others made
>> great art out of. He was somebody who lived a lie.
>
> I guess we have one who isn't going to see This Is It (<g>).
>
You got that right.
>> I guess the habit never went away - Q still
>> went in through the help entrance, and never
>> really took credit.
>
> ????
>
> Even ignorant me knew Quincy Jones "did" for MJ, because there was a
> lot of publicity IRT those peak years for MJ and Quincy Jones was
> certainly in the limelight with MJ.
>
>> He was gonna let the kid
>> take all the fire.
>
> Well, as long as he wasn't tag-teaming "little boys" with MJ
> (presumably being much too busy keeping Peggy Lipton pregnant,
> barefoot, and in the kitchen, along with other, professional
> activities), why would he have to "take any fire"?
>
I'm not sure I can explain that.
>> The calculating cynicism of it all is just...
>> breathtaking. It is genius, but it's not
>> something that inspires a sense of pride.
>
> OK OK: I just went and watched the movie.
>
> I don't care about "Michael Jackson" one way or the other. We used to
> play "Ben" as a joke (ha ha, a love song to a rat); the Jackson Five
> was just another "act", I never bought any J5 or MJ records or CD's.
> Nope, but I did see him on the Motown TV special (ca. 1984-5) where he
> lit up what had been a pretty dismal evening. That's "Michael Jackson"
> for me.
>
> Oh yeah, it has come out that MJ _didn't invent the Moonwalk_!!!!
> Damn! Whoops, I mean "who cares"?
>
"Who cares" is the whole point. How does some singer inspire what
is essentially religious devotion like that?
> I'm not trying to tell you how or what to think, if it sounds like it.
> Just sayin' I don't think the same.
>
> PBS radio played "Billie Jean" as a vocal-track-only tribute to
> Michael when he died. The man could sing and dance. What a shame that
> show didn't get to play, it would have been... killer.
> --D-y
What a bloody waste.
--
Les Cargill
Sir Lurksalot
<dusto...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:4556f25a-1b9a-4e9a...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
????
======================================================================
Regardless of what one may think about Michael Jackson as a person, he was
one extremely talented dude. QJ cound NOT have made Michael the superstar
that he became if the raw talent hadn't there to begin with. Anyone who
denies Michael's talent or thinks that he wouldn't have been a star without
QJ is in serious self-denial! QJ certainly contributed to Michael's becoming
an ultra-super-megastar, but even without QJ, he would still have been a
super-megastar.
dusto...@mac.com
> "Who cares" is the whole point. How does some singer inspire what
> is essentially religious devotion like that?
Many many acts, big and small (!!!) have inspired devotion. People get
carried away. Too much "magic"?
The point is to realize these people didn't hang the moon, as Merle
Haggard used to say, but we can still enjoy, just without the "cult of
personality" thing.
> What a bloody waste.
All the way around, the drugs and (alleged) (from several sources)
young boys and all of it.
Fred Astaire, it is said, was really impressed with the Motown show.
Mr. Astaire, you can read about how much effort (perfectionism) he
applied to anything he did. The Motown show was nothing in comparison
to This Is It, and just talking MJ's singing and dancing, let alone
the production numbers. And he was still only 50 years old. --D-y
The Sicker Vicar
If a voice could have a smell, Michael Jackson's voice would smell
about like his corpse does about now.
eadg
news:hdante$2ks3$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
> Regardless of what one may think about Michael Jackson as a
> person, he was one extremely talented dude. QJ cound NOT
> have made Michael the superstar that he became if the raw
> talent hadn't there to begin with. Anyone who denies
> Michael's talent or thinks that he wouldn't have been a
> star without QJ is in serious self-denial! QJ certainly
> contributed to Michael's becoming an ultra-super-megastar,
> but even without QJ, he would still have been a
> super-megastar.
Ultra super megastar? MJ was a small cog in the big machine
we all know as motown. The first four bars of 'I Want You
Back' served him well and he made the most out of it, but
he's no Stevie Wonder, any more than Jermaine is up with
Wilton Felder.
--
SR
Sir Lurksalot
"eadg" <don't...@it.com> wrote in message
news:013fc97e$0$25880$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
comparison between the two. MJ did what he did better than anyone else ever
has, but composing and arranging was not what he did, and playing an
instrument didn't even enter into it. Stevie is a great composer, arranger
and instrumentalist, and a damn good singer, but as a singer, he isn't even
in the ballpark with MJ, and he can't dance worth a crap. MJ was a lot more
than a "small cog", cogs are interchangable, MJ was unique which makes him
one of the driving wheels behind Motown. Motown took advantage of MJ's
talent and put him in the spotlight, but while there are millions of
spotlights, there was only one MJ. Say what you want about MJ as a person,
but if you deny his talents, you're either lying or you're blind and deaf.
dusto...@mac.com
> If a voice could have a smell, Michael Jackson's voice would smell
> about like his corpse does about now.
Ding! Another one who isn't going to see This Is It.
--D-y
The Sicker Vicar
> "eadg" <don'...@it.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, as a singer, Stevie Wonder is not in the ballpark with MJ.
He's in a much, much better ballpark altogether.
Monkey Pi
> No, as a singer, Stevie Wonder is not in the ballpark with MJ.
> He's in a much, much better ballpark altogether.
Just a matter of taste, but I'll add in that I find the singers who were
obviously influenced by Stevie far more appealing than those who are
following MJ's trajectory.
Monkey Pi
--
_ _
|o| o , o_,' o_, |o|
|O| <%'. _`'_ === <\_ |O|
(0) / | (_)`-' | / | (0)
p-----MonkeyMonkeyMonkey-----q
eadg
I never mentioned his personality and I don't recall
questioning his talents, I was merely trying to put some
perspective into your 'megastar' claim. And to suggest he was
exploited by motown is ridiculous, it's the complete
opposite. Maybe the dysfunctional upbringing is to blame but
he made all his own decisions. If there's any tragedy it's
because he could have made so much more of his talents
instead of believing his own hype.
Give me Jimmy Ruffin any day.
--
SR
Sir Lurksalot
"Monkey Pi" <Monk...@MonkeyMonkeyMonkey.Com> wrote in message
news:rq-dnTlO2t1Nb2fX...@posted.localnet...
> The Sicker Vicar wrote:
>> No, as a singer, Stevie Wonder is not in the ballpark with MJ.
>> He's in a much, much better ballpark altogether.
>
> Just a matter of taste, but I'll add in that I find the singers who were
> obviously influenced by Stevie far more appealing than those who are
> following MJ's trajectory.
>
> Monkey Pi
I'll agree with that for the simple reason that I've never heard anyone else
sing like MJ did, he was unique. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Stevie
Wonder fan, and for the most part, I'd rather listen to him than to MJ. I'm
just trying to point out that MJ was hugely talented as well, and as an
artist he doesn't deserve the flack he's getting here and elsewhere. As a
person, it's a different story, but that has absolutely nothing to do with
his talent.
Sir Lurksalot
partnership was to the mutual benefit of both MJ and Motown, and each gained
from it. The tragedy was in his personal life and it did affect his career,
but not his on-stage performances.
dusto...@mac.com
> I'll agree with that for the simple reason that I've never heard anyone else
> sing like MJ did, he was unique. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Stevie
> Wonder fan, and for the most part, I'd rather listen to him than to MJ.
Lots of singers have "better" instruments than MJ did.
Including female, in MJ's case <g>.
He's not someone I bought records of to listen to him sing.
I think that's been covered, no need to um, pile it on.
--D-y
Sir Lurksalot
<dusto...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:9b26634d-ca8b-49d4...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
=======================================================================
It wasn't the quality of MJ's instrument, it was what he did with it.
Beatboxing aside, a vocal instrument that was melodic and percussive at the
same time is rather uncommon.
dusto...@mac.com
> <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9b26634d-ca8b-49d4...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 11, 9:42 pm, "Sir Lurksalot" <non...@business.com> wrote:
>
> > I'll agree with that for the simple reason that I've never heard anyone
> > else
> > sing like MJ did, he was unique. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Stevie
> > Wonder fan, and for the most part, I'd rather listen to him than to MJ.
>
> Lots of singers have "better" instruments than MJ did.
> Including female, in MJ's case <g>.
> He's not someone I bought records of to listen to him sing.
> I think that's been covered, no need to um, pile it on.
> --D-y
> =======================================================================
>
> It wasn't the quality of MJ's instrument, it was what he did with it.
Amen, brother. Repeating, PBS played "Billy Jean" as MJ's vocal track
only, in tribute. And a really fine, and it must be said, clever one
it was.
"Here's the singer, and as a singer, he was pretty great".
> Beatboxing aside, a vocal instrument that was melodic and percussive at the
> same time is rather uncommon.
Yeah he could carry the whole thing, and dance at the same time.
OK, I hope I encouraged a few posters and lurkers to go see the movie.
I'm going back, even though it gets a little long, and I still have
enough memory-purpose brain cells that there won't be many surprises.
Over. Maybe out.
--D-y