Self taught - what exactly does this mean?
bassman2
Now, I understand that a certain amount of natural ability (eg good
ears and innate sense of timing) do, to some extent, help even without
teacher's guidance but surely there must be a time when these guys
have actually received some tuition - albeit as little as 1 or 2
lessons - to refine technique or even to read (assuming they do).
Hence, does self-taught imply not necessarily never have had a formal
lesson but rather have had limited teacher/peer input into your
playing? Could a classical musician be self taught?
Derek - if you are reading this, please stop beating us in rugby
union. Thank you.
RichL
> Ever come across excellent musicians who claim to be "self taught?"
The rock world is full of them. Some of them actually *are*
"self-taught" (as expanded upon below).
> Now, I understand that a certain amount of natural ability (eg good
> ears and innate sense of timing) do, to some extent, help even without
> teacher's guidance but surely there must be a time when these guys
> have actually received some tuition - albeit as little as 1 or 2
> lessons - to refine technique or even to read (assuming they do).
> Hence, does self-taught imply not necessarily never have had a formal
> lesson but rather have had limited teacher/peer input into your
> playing? Could a classical musician be self taught?
It varies all over the place. Learning from a more experienced musician
friend ("Here, check this out. I'll slow it down so you can tell what
I'm doing"). Learning from books. Having had lessons on a *different*
instrument.
It's not necessary to have formal training. Think about the old delta
bluesmen-- they learned from the older folks among them and from one
another.
I took formal piano lessions as a child but learned guitar and bass on
my own, pretty much. A couple of years into it I took a couple of
lessons, but they were useless to me; they didn't address what I wanted
to learn. So I roughed it (mainly gobbled up books). My piano teacher
had given me some good ear training so I learned songs mainly by
listening and attempting to replicate. Then I learned to generalize
from what I heard and read.
crow
To me 'self taught' means no lessons, figuring out licks off of
records & sharing what you've learned & discussing concepts with one's
mutually disadvantaged peers. For the record I don't reccomend it. A
great teacher can shave years off the learning curve, but a bad one
can stifle creative potential just as quickly. I learned the mechanics
of reading music in grade school. A more knowlegable friend once
advised me to 'get a hymnal'. That stuff is very easy to read. If you
can force yourself to go through a few hundred pages, it all makes
sense when you pick up a realbook chart & can actually understand it!
That being said, my note reading is poor but i can write out my own
stuff fairly quickly and can write complex chord chart arrangements
with multiple codas, time/key changes, etc. i carry an accordian file
of these charts in my van & use them frequently. These skills have
served me well over the years to the point where I'm able to front
pickup bands with no rehearsals and get asked back!
jepp
SheaNC
news:ed80d6fa-dd03-4d1a...@o9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Ever come across excellent musicians who claim to be "self taught?"
"Excellent musicians"? How is that defined? I'll bet there are many great,
talented, sometimes amazing, dare-I-say excellent bassists who didn't take
formal lessons. Or, as RichL pointed out, were schooled in music but took no
lessons on bass.
I am "self-taught": I took some college music theory and applied it to my
instrument of choice. Those were my lessons, I guess, but only in musical
structure, not in how to apply that theory and use it to express emotion
through an instrument. My level of excellence is subjective, but I did okay
seeking knowledge and applying it in practice. Lessons can be valuable (in
the arts, there are good teachers and bad), but not an absolute requirement.
There are some who really need lessons, and some who don't.
Now, having never taken lessons, but being aware of human nature, I'll
venture to say it is likely that there are good teachers and bad ones, and I
would rather be self-taught than learn someone's bad habits :)
Derek Tearne
> Ever come across excellent musicians who claim to be "self taught?"
I have only taken one bass related lesson in my life - and that was on
bow technique. Even given descrpions on the internet this one thing
required an actual lessonwith someone who knew what they where doing.
All the rest I have worked out for myself, or read about.
I did have piano lessons for a few years, and trombone lessons for
nearly 5 years. My guitar tuition was basically my brother showing me
some chords - and spending a summer school holiday in a new house in the
country where i didn't know anyone so i spent it noodling on a battered
old acoustic guitar.
The idea of taking private guitar or bass lessons never even occured to
me until much later.
Can i claim to be a completely self taught musician? not really, but I
can claim to be a self taught bass player.
Of course, if i had ever taken bass lessons i would likely be a much
better bass player - and certainly have progressed a lot faster - but
that's a different issue.
> Derek - if you are reading this, please stop beating us in rugby
> union. Thank you.
Are we? I didn't even know there was a match on.
--- derek
--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
Vitamin S - improvisation from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/
Benj
> Ever come across excellent musicians who claim to be "self taught?"
> Now, I understand that a certain amount of natural ability (eg good
> ears and innate sense of timing) do, to some extent, help even without
> teacher's guidance but surely there must be a time when these guys
> have actually received some tuition - albeit as little as 1 or 2
> lessons - to refine technique or even to read (assuming they do).
> Hence, does self-taught imply not necessarily never have had a formal
> lesson but rather have had limited teacher/peer input into your
> playing? Could a classical musician be self taught?
There are lots of "self-taught musicians. What it means is to have
never had any formal lessons in the instrument. I, for example, am a
self-taught bass guitar player. I've never had formal lessons in bass
guitar. However that does not mean I've never studied music. I
formally studied piano for years. Plus my dad was a drummer so you
could say I had built-in drum lessons while I still lived at home.
Plus I played upright before I switched to bass guitar. I also studied
composition etc. in college. Now my dad had formal drum lessons but
was self-taught on many other instruments (anything he could play with
his hands and feet he used to say). He sounded better than I did on
keys but played entirely by ear. Couldn't read piano music a lick.
Most of my relatives play instruments and are largely self-taught.
They tend to wear it as a badge of honor. My cousin, for example, is
widely praised around his area as a wonderful guitarist. But when I
Jam with him he appears to have no clue as to what a key is or what
key the music is in or even what the names of some of the chords he's
playing are. They tend to be named "the one that goes like this: <and
then he shows you the position on the neck>" The bad news is my
relatives are all a very talented bunch. They have wonderful ears and
musical sense. So to me it's kind of a shame to see them short
changing themselves (assuming that is what they are doing rather than
just giving me the action by pretending to be dumb). But I have seen
this attitude widespread among musicians. the concept seems to be that
since classical musicians take lots of formal lessons and classical
musicians tend to not have any feel for Jazz, blues and other things
requiring improvisation, that the reverse must also be true where
self-taught musicians are have wonderful creative abilities and
extemporaneous talent that might be lost if the guy tried to take any
lessons. (Yeah, I know it's silly, just saying)
Of course, self-taught does not mean, not taught! Most self-taught
players have exceptional ears and talent and then to act like sponges
when around players who are better than they are. They sort of remind
me of the dancers who can steal your steps even with their back turned
toward you! Just amazing.
My favorite self-taught musician story. I'm in the guitar shop and old
blues dude is telling of some kid guitar player he heard. "Man, that
kid could REALLY play!" he said. "But the kid didn't have any idea how
to tune his guitar. He had to give it to someone else to tune for him!
But once it was tuned he played like you never heard before! Can you
imagine that?"
"So what brings you in?", asks shop owner.
"Well it's this amp (small blues-type guitar amp) I bought from you
(two weeks ago). It sounds great and all but I bumped the knobs and
changed the settings and I was wondering if you could put them back to
the way they were when I bought it.
Any questions about self-taught players?
bassman2
> "bassman2" <vince_angelon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ed80d6fa-dd03-4d1a...@o9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Ever come across excellent musicians who claim to be "self taught?"
>
> "Excellent musicians"? How is that defined? I'll bet there are many great,
> talented, sometimes amazing, dare-I-say excellent bassists who didn't take
> formal lessons. Or, as RichL pointed out, were schooled in music but took no
> lessons on bass.
Yes, but the fact that they took "some" music lessons to me implies
that at least they has some formalized training - whereas, to RichL's
point - some blues musicians would have learned by "seeing , hearing
and playing".
>
> I am "self-taught": I took some college music theory and applied it to my
> instrument of choice. Those were my lessons, I guess, but only in musical
> structure, not in how to apply that theory and use it to express emotion
> through an instrument. My level of excellence is subjective, but I did okay
> seeking knowledge and applying it in practice. Lessons can be valuable (in
> the arts, there are good teachers and bad), but not an absolute requirement.
> There are some who really need lessons, and some who don't.
>
> Now, having never taken lessons, but being aware of human nature, I'll
> venture to say it is likely that there are good teachers and bad ones, and I
> would rather be self-taught than learn someone's bad habits :)
No question, hence why it may be best for the beginner to try a few
different teachers before settling on one. Even pros I know have had
different teachers, depending on what technique they felt needed work.
Jim Carr
> Ever come across excellent musicians who claim to be "self taught?"
> Now, I understand that a certain amount of natural ability (eg good
> ears and innate sense of timing) do, to some extent, help even without
> teacher's guidance but surely there must be a time when these guys
> have actually received some tuition - albeit as little as 1 or 2
> lessons - to refine technique or even to read (assuming they do).
> Hence, does self-taught imply not necessarily never have had a formal
> lesson but rather have had limited teacher/peer input into your
> playing? Could a classical musician be self taught?
Strictly speaking, unless you've never heard any other music besides
your own, you can't be self taught. I sat next to Chuck Rainey at School
of Bass during a presentation by Bobbie Vega (if I remember correctly).
Point is that Mr. Rainey repeatedly stood up to see what Bobbie was
doing and commented that he's always trying to learn from other musicians.
I think what most people mean is that they have never had formal
training in the form of lessons or schooling. I think that's an
acceptable definition and would never argue the point. I also think that
taking a few lessons or a class after you've been playing for a while
doesn't necessarily disqualify you from calling yourself self-taught.
--
Write a wise saying and your name will live forever.
- Anonymous
Jonathan Chase
news:ed80d6fa-dd03-4d1a...@o9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Ever come across excellent musicians who claim to be "self taught?"
> Now, I understand that a certain amount of natural ability (eg good
> ears and innate sense of timing) do, to some extent, help even without
> teacher's guidance but surely there must be a time when these guys
> have actually received some tuition - albeit as little as 1 or 2
> lessons - to refine technique or even to read (assuming they do).
> Hence, does self-taught imply not necessarily never have had a formal
> lesson but rather have had limited teacher/peer input into your
> playing? Could a classical musician be self taught?
In my experience, the words "self taught" break down into three groups:
1. People who have studied music but without classes or private
lessons. Reading books, learning off records by ear, etc. Some don't know
very much about theory or general music structure and some people learn a
lot without going to school or studying with another player. I think many
people also call themselves "self taught" because they learned the basics
(technique, note names, etc.) without formal instruction, even if they move
on to study with others later on when they have more experience and want to
learn more advanced concepts.
2. People who think being "self taught" makes them better than everyone
else. Sure, anyone can play a G major scale, but if you *invented* that
scale you must be way smarter than everyone else, right? You're like,
freakin' Beethoven (the old guy, not the dog in the movie, but he rocks
too). I've met some people who have learned (often unsuccessfully) from
others but claim to be "self taught" and often spout names like BB King to
prove the class they belong to. Never mind that the great players they
always name did, in fact, know a lot about music and often learned from many
people during their careers.
3. People who use "self taught" as an excuse for holes in their
playing. "Oh I don't know how to play that, I'm self taught" I've met a
lot of people in the blues community who use this line, as an excuse for the
fact that the only time they invested in their instrument was to copy lines
from one single player. If anyone catches them unprepared or expects them
to have basic, fundamental musical knowledge they will use this line to
avoid facing the fact that there are things they could learn. The most
common use for this line is to excuse abysmal technique, like playing with
only 2 left-hand fingers, or all downstrokes with a pick. 'Whatever man,
I'm not some music school geek, I'm self taught so that makes it okay."
Personally I think we're all influenced by everything we see and hear,
there are players I've never met but I've studied so much of their playing
that I can say they taught me quite a bit. Most of the time if I hear the
term flying around I expect to hear a less-than-stellar musician, and if
it's in a Craigslist post I run the other way. Not because being good
requires training or instruction, but because good players (trained or not)
don't categorize musicians that way, while bad players often break things
down into groups to make up for deficiencies in their playing.
-Jonathan
eadg
news:ed80d6fa-dd03-4d1a...@o9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> taught?"
I am your humble servant sir, an autodidact, which according
to t'internet, has connotations of scepticism and would
certainly apply to me.
I've given a few lessons but never had one personally, and
I'd never rule them out for specifics if I felt the need but
so far my furrow is all my own work.
> Derek - if you are reading this, please stop beating us in
> rugby
> union. Thank you.
How about your RL team laying off the Brits ;)
--
SR
Gary Rosen
"bassman2" <vince_an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ed80d6fa-dd03-4d1a...@o9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
It's interesting that a couple of responders here regard themselves
as "self-taught" bassists although they had years of music lessons
on other instruments, especially piano. This applies to myself
as well, sorta. I took piano lessons for years as a kid before
I started playing bass. I did have lessons for a few months
after I started playing bass, though I don't know if I learned as
much as I did playing Jamerson bass lines out of Carol Kaye's
books (heh). Later on I took a few lessons on upright, but only
a few.
I think this points up a couple of things:
1) It's very helpful on any instrument to not just learn the
mechanics of the instrument but to learn music, i. e. theory.
I was lucky that after 3 years my parents switched me to
a jazz piano teacher who taught me theory from a jazz/pop
standpoint and as the years went on I realized how helpful
this was. This may be even more important for bassists
since bass is inherently much more an ensemble instrument
than a solo instrument.
2) Electric bass is a very young instrument and does not
have the centuries of accumulated history of technique
that orchestral instruments have. So a lot of people have
developed their own approaches to the instrument; AFAIK
there is no standard "method" on electric bass like, say,
the Simandl method for upright. I'd like to hear what
Shaughnessy has to say about this.
- Gary Rosen
SheaNC
> not the dog in the movie, but he rocks too).
Waaaiitt a minute... are you telling us those symphonies were NOT written by
the dog?
Thanks a lot. Way to shatter my illusions.
SheaNC
weasel...
bassman2
>
> How about your RL team laying off the Brits ;)
>
> --
> SR
Nah, after the cricket, we had to get stuck in you guys...watching the
4 nations, are you?
eadg
Yes, through the gaps in my fingers when my hand is over my
eyes ;)
--
SR
TS
Believe it or not you do not have to be a rocket scientist to play a
musical instrument.
Monkey Pi
I'm not claiming she was great, but I knew a girl who played in my
wife's band who not only never had lessons, but never learned a cover
song. Every bassline she ever played was something she came up with herself.
Monkey Pi
--
_ _
|o| o , o_,' o_, |o|
|O| <%'. _`'_ === <\_ |O|
(0) / | (_)`-' | / | (0)
p-----MonkeyMonkeyMonkey-----q
bassman2
> Believe it or not you do not have to be a rocket scientist to play a musical instrument.
No, you don't, depending on your goals. But I wonder why some people
think that rocket scientists are "smart"...
bassman2
> I'm not claiming she was great, but I knew a girl who played in my
> wife's band who not only never had lessons, but never learned a cover
> song. Every bassline she ever played was something she came up with herself.
>
"hook", viz. intro to "My Girl"???
Monkey Pi
They played all originals.
Like I said, I'm not claiming she was great, but she had plenty of
friends. We tried to get them to open for us as much as possible.
Gregory Rochford
scientist as an insult, since theoretical physicists are way smarter...
best
gr
RichL
Ah, but the original rocket scientists were theoretical physicists!
Misifus
Aw, shit!
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com