Ear Training?
Steve
Looking for some ideas here.
I was invited to sit in on a jam session in my neighborhood last week,
and had a real blast. Three hours of just messing around playing
whatever came to mind.
They had a songbook though, and was glad to see the root chords indicated
so I wasn't totally off in left field. My biggest issue though was when
they played something without the aid of the book/notes.
I'm finding that my playing "by ear" is sadly lacking. I can hum a
"great" bass line, but whenever I try to lay it down, I'm in the wrong
key, missing transitions etc.
I'm feeling that I've spent too long reading sheet music, and need to
beef up my "seat of the pants" playing. Don't get me wrong though, I
need to work on my theory as well.
I'm wondering what folks are doing to help beef up their ear playing, and
steps to help determine what key a piece is in etc. I'd love to pick up
my bass with the radio on and at least mess around in the right key as I
fumble along.
Any help, tips, URLs greatly appreciated.
TIA
Steve
Frederic Gelinas
> I'd love to
> pick up my bass with the radio on and at least mess around in the
> right key as I fumble along.
That's it. Turn on the radio and play. That's what I do. I change
station once in a while to play different kind of music. Takes a lot
of time. I don't know how I do it, but I often find the key of the
song in the first 10 seconds. Most of the time, I play a note, let's
say a C. If it souds way off-key, I move half a step to B or C#. When
I hear that this note fit in the scale, I try to figure out which
degree of that scale it is... or waiting for the bassline to use that
note and try to follow after...
For me, it's sight reading that just doesn't work like I want!
--
Frederic Gelinas
Philbert
random stuff from my collection, set it on shuffle, turn out the lights so I
can't see the fongerboad (a little tougher on the fretless), and do my best
not to suck. I purposely mix it up - folk, bluegrass, classical, jazz, R&B,
celtic - whatever. Most times the result is the expected train wreck, but
occasionally I get lucky and come up with something that's really cool.
Once you get past the initial anxiety, it's actually fun! Its definitely
helped me do stuff on the fly....
"Frederic Gelinas" <frederic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38t1h.175108$sS1....@read1.cgocable.net...
Derek Tearne
> I'm wondering what folks are doing to help beef up their ear playing, and
> steps to help determine what key a piece is in etc. I'd love to pick up
> my bass with the radio on and at least mess around in the right key as I
> fumble along.
I think it's one of those things you can only learn by doing - and the
easiest way to do this without embarrasment is by playing along to the
radio, or probably better CDs, or better still an MP3 player on random
play.
The advantage of playing along to the radio is almost anything could
come next, including things you've never heard, the disadvantage is for
most people a radio is a small portable device with poor bass response.
Listening to you MP3 collection on random play has the advantage that
you are probably familiar with most of the tunes, but of course you'll
probably never be surprised by something completely from left field.
--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
pTooner
"Steve" <st...@morleys.org> wrote in message
news:Xns986C71978D8F...@199.175.106.247...
> Howdy folks,
>
> Looking for some ideas here.
>
> I was invited to sit in on a jam session in my neighborhood last week,
> and had a real blast. Three hours of just messing around playing
> whatever came to mind.
I like to go to jam sessions, they are often held at places like American
Legion or VFW or similar here. (USA) The most common are probably country
jams, but you also see blue grass or jazz. Anyway, I'm a hard core chart
reader by nature so I'm learning a lot from these things. I start with the
concept that a song will have more I chords than anything else, followed by
IVs and Vs, then look for V7 and IIm or VIm. If possible I try to catch a
couple of chords off the guitar player's hand and that makes it easier, of
course. For instance, if he plays a C and a G you can bet he's in either C
or G. Well, that' wasn't a very good example, but you get the gist. Any 7
will probably be the V chord. Anyway, if I can pick up a line starting on a
I chord I can sort of hear where it's going from there. I find it just
takes doing it a while. I've only learned this recently, I've been reading
everything basically from charts for MANY years. To me it's a combination
of music theory and by ear.
Gerry
gigabit
Steve wrote:
> Howdy folks,
>
> Looking for some ideas here.
> beef up my "seat of the pants" playing. Don't get me wrong though, I
> need to work on my theory as well.
>
> I'm wondering what folks are doing to help beef up their ear playing, and
> steps to help determine what key a piece is in etc. I'd love to pick up
> my bass with the radio on and at least mess around in the right key as I
> fumble along.
>
> Any help, tips, URLs greatly appreciated.
Simply put, pick a song you like. Learn song by ear. Completely and
properly, note for note. This is sometimes called lifting. Repeat. (
with another song, of course) By the time you do this only a few
hundred times you'll be surprised at how well your inner ear is
starting to connect with your fingers. It's also a good thing to
buttress this endeavour up with a little theory knowledge, scales and
intervals. I assume you're already down that path a bit, being a
"reader"
* Tip * Avoid a trap many fall in, and don't confuse the "theory "
with the music. The music came first. Trust me on that one.
Now, if you want to be even more serious about it, a little eartraining
proper is in order. Good news is that in this day of the 'net,
incredible resources are just a click away.
One of my faves :
http://earplane.com/modules/earplane_main/
You'll need the latest shockwave.
Start with the "if this is an F" and the melodic intervals sections.
When you can ace that stuff, make sure you cover melodic intervals up
and down an 8ve, and then add in harmonic intervals up and down an 8ve,
and yah know, by then, your inner ear and your fingers are well on the
way to achieving "oneness" on the bass.
That's just scratching the surface, there's certainly much more to
eartraining than just that, but a solid understanding of intervals and
their sound is the abc's of music and the basis of true competence on
your instrument.
IMHO, that is...
Danko
"gigabit" <dalto...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1162262120.0...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
Here is another nice one: http://www.good-ear.com/.
The thing that hepled me most, though, is figuring out some jazz standards
like "All of me" by myself. Then checking my conclusions out in the real
books. So, if you want to go that way, pick out any ol' jazz standard you
like, but never played before. Try the play-along method and figure the
changes by yourself. Then correct your ideas checking the real book. You'll
be surprised how close you've come, and that some things you play maybe even
fit better than what's written there in the Book.
Why that? Because (you already know, but I'll repeat it) jazz standards
contain most common chord-changes (and most complex ones) you will encounter
in any other type of music. Except for some Istrian or other weird ethnic
music. Anyways... if you get down those standards, you're safe in rock,
blues, RNB, pop, bluegrass, you name it.
Good luck with any path you choose!
Danko
Jonathan
>
>
>
Everyone else is right on about the radio and learning songs as often as
you can. I will add a couple things that I think help a great deal:
First, learn not just songs but entire records. Go to the local used CD
shop and pick up some cheap CD's, take them home, and learn them, front to
back, note for note. It does take some work but you come out the other side
with a much stronger ear. Pick some CD's that you don't normally listen to;
pop records can be great since there aren't a lot of weird chords or key
changes and there is often some very nice bass work going on underneath.
Second, don't just listen and play, chart these records out. Get a
notebook and start writing out chords and arrangements, until you know every
song on that record front to back and have charts for it as well. If you're
already building your ear, why not work on your charting ability at the same
time? It will also help build your connection between the songs you learn
and the notes you take on them, which is very important when you are
learning dozens of songs.
I love the radio and it's a great ear training exercise that everyone
should do. I think learning full records, and learning lots of songs in
many genre's is helpful too. Go invest $20-30 in picking up a set of "Best
of" records in various genre's (Blues, R&B, Funk, Country, Top 40, etc) and
start working through them. For example, get a "Greatest hits" record for
Stevie Ray Vaughn, Aretha Franklin, Bob Marley, Shania Twain, and James
Brown. By the time you have made it through those you *will* have a strong
ear. You'll also be comfortable writing charts, know more about some music
you probably haven't played before, and you might just have some useful
charts to use when you go out to play with other musicians. :)
Good luck!
-Jonathan
Pt
Steve wrote:
> Howdy folks,
>
> Looking for some ideas here.
When playing random songs the first thing to do is figure out what key
the song is in.
Then figure out what the chord progression is.
Once you know those things you're home free.
Just play root 5 or do a walk.
What ever fits.
It helps to know a little theory too.
Like what chords are Major and what chords are minor.
But if you don't play any 3rds you don't have to worry about that.
Pt
dusto...@mac.com
Philbert wrote:
> Me too, but not with the radio. I load up my el cheapo CD changer with
> random stuff from my collection, set it on shuffle, turn out the lights so I
> can't see the fongerboad (a little tougher on the fretless), and do my best
> not to suck. I purposely mix it up - folk, bluegrass, classical, jazz, R&B,
> celtic - whatever. Most times the result is the expected train wreck, but
> occasionally I get lucky and come up with something that's really cool.
> Once you get past the initial anxiety, it's actually fun! Its definitely
> helped me do stuff on the fly....
No light in the woodshed???? Wow, now that's hardcore! <g>
Mixing styles is really great advice because as J. S. notsolongago said
here, bass playing is "the same thing" across a wide spectrum of
musical styles. You just have to be familiar with the styles.
I'll suggest one worthy of study IMHO:
http://www.answers.com/topic/master-fiddler-country-album
This covers a long timespan of Baker's career. Bunch of fine
bandmembers here (Jack Hicks, banjo, is a standout even in this crowd),
and I think some delicious, basic bass playing esp. by a certain couple
of the guys on here. The style is covered in an "authentic" manner, for
sure; this stuff is excellent for learning to "catch the quick 4" as we
used to call it. The rhythm guitar players' single-note runs are key;
they make a bassline by themselves.
This is also one of my faves just for listening, but (IMHO again) a
"cornerstone" style you can put in the toolbox. Don't forget, Country
used to have like, fiddles and stuff in it <g>!
I like to point this album out to bass players because I once saw a
really accomplished player (whose name many in this ng would know from
his playing another instrument) fall flat on his face while playing a
pickup bass gig (his second instrument) for a "fiddle contest" (sort
of) and accompanying "bluegrass" (sort of) and square dance (sort of)
show-- hey, it was a paying gig!!! Not horrible music, either, by any
means. Very embarrassing, and he could have 'shedded the gig in a big,
big hurry if he'd known he was going to need to do so. --D-y
paul
i have hooked up a cd player through the P.A., and will play a cd while
playing along on bass at full volume. i have found that this improves my
'ear' quicker than anything else i have tried.
good luck,
paul
Jim Carr
news:ei7fq...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> First, learn not just songs but entire records.
I have found that the more songs I learn of a particular artist, the more in
touch I become with the bass player. Subsequent songs seem to come easier
because in a subconscious I seem to sense what's coming next. Don't know if
anyone else has noticed something like that or if it's just wishful thinking
on my part.
Kloka-mo'
helps a lot more, but costs more than radio.
As for figuring out on the fly, like others mentioned, I find the root, then
try the third. Start with a quick flatted third, then slide up, till it
sounds good :-) Hopefully it's so quick, the audience would never notice.
I usually try to get the "key" from someone, which they don't usually offer
until they KNOW I'm lost. After a few times of being lost and making them
sound bad, they get more generous, and proactive. Still haven't played with
anyone who can tell me if it's G major or minor, but I have hopes.
--
-rob Bartlett, TN
O>
/(\)
^^
"Steve" <st...@morleys.org> wrote in message
news:Xns986C71978D8F...@199.175.106.247...
Pt
Steve wrote:
> Howdy folks,
>
> Looking for some ideas here.
Ear training for me is understanding what I hear.
Like most people I start by trying to hear the music as a whole.
But with enough ear training you will never really hear it as a whole.
There are two basic things to listen for.
Harmony and percussion.
Each instrument harmonizes with the other instruments.
Listen to how the guitar harmonizes with the keyboard, with the melody
and with the horns and bass.
Maybe a guitar is playing a flat 5, bass playing the root and keyboard
playing 3 and 7.
Listen to each instrument separately and try to understand the harmony.
Also listen to how the bass interacts with the drums and other
percussion.
One thing I have noticed is that there is usually a lot more going on
in a song than is first perceived.
Pt
Fletch
Yep, I agree here. Turn on the radio, put on some CDs or whatever music
you like, even music you don't particularly like (which will make you
THINK about what you're hearing more than music you like), and start
learning by listening.
Let me repeat that: Ear training is a process of learning by LISTENING,
not just hearing the music.
A good foundation in modes (scales, really) and common scales will help
immensely as well, so you will at least have a basis to help guide you
to know what notes are relevant in a given song/composition.
--Fletch
andrew queisser
> steps to help determine what key a piece is in etc. I'd love to pick up
> my bass with the radio on and at least mess around in the right key as I
> fumble along.
I'm struggling with this as well since my pitch recognition isn't that great
and there are a lot of good tips already in this thread, thanks to everyone
for that.
My teacher showed me how to use the pentatonic scale as a key-finding
method. In general, the pentatonic scale(s) will sound mostly right as you
play along with the song. Once you find a note that sounds ok the next note
is either a two or three half steps away so after a little experimentation
you can find the pentatonic scale for the key of the song. Then you can find
the common chords (I,IV,V,ii,etc.)
I find it works better on higher frets since the lower frequencies aren't as
easy to recognize (for me.)
Lately I've been playing along with some MIDI files which can be really
annoying if you don't have good MIDI sounds but it has some advantages: you
can slow down the playback and you can check up on your progress by looking
at the score and seeing what chord is being played. It's also nice because
you can mute some of the instruments when you want to try out new ideas.
Andrew
Paul Cooke
I use Tuxguitar to import the midi files (it also reads and writes guitar
pro files) and then on playback, I can fade out various instruments and
also see the fret positions on a virtual fretboard.
(it's a bit limited at the moment for actually entering notes. The team are
busy working on some new ideas for entering phrases and cutting & pasting
stuff.)
>
> Andrew
--
XP, unsafe on the information highway at any speed
Steve
Wow, great feedback.
I've archived all the replies for further reading in detail, and have
started going through all my music collection picking various stuff to
start hammering away on.
I know I'm not tone deaf, because I know when it sounds wrong :) I guess
I just have to keep at it (when not under live pressure) and build up my
ear chops.
One thing though, maybe just a bad sound system/speakers. On many songs,
I have trouble picking out the bass lines clearly. I play with the
limited EQ on my PC but it's still hit and miss on many songs. Any
benefit to one of those bass trainers, like the CD-BT1 or CD-BT1mkII type
of thing? My birthday's coming up shortly, maybe I should add one to the
list?
Steve
Plays Real Basses
the poor bass encoding and reproduction. There are varying degrees of
quality in encoder software. Some codecs absolutly destroy low end.
The best one I ever used (still do) is LAME, and Exact Audio Copy (for
Windows) and GRIP (for Linux.. Penguin Power!) One is often better of
using CD's in a home system... Some computer speakers are fairly limited
in their ability to reproduce low end as well. As for the Tascam units,
I have one, rarely use it. It might be the total lack of time that I
can devote to anything these days..... I do like the ability to slow
things and maintain pitch, but that can be done with freeware on your
computer. Use groups.google.com and you should be able to search up
relevant threads.
--
> www.google.com <enter> <
> search<insert query here> <enter> <
> <
> avoiding newsgroup wiseasses.... PRICELESS. <
> <
> For some things there is usenet <
> For everything else there is google............. <
Mike Hanson
> One thing though, maybe just a bad sound system/speakers. On many songs,
> I have trouble picking out the bass lines clearly. I play with the
> limited EQ on my PC but it's still hit and miss on many songs.
Your brain's EQ is rather more sophisticated - by which I mean that
your ability to pick out unclear basslines will improve over time. It's
not that you'll hear it any more clearly, but that you'll get better at
deducing or anticipating what the note(s) must be and then confirming
your guess by listening, which is far easier than trying to hear them
directly.
The same applies to fast runs where the notes come too quickly to be
picked out individually. You can hear where the run starts, where it
finishes, how many notes it contains and its general shape, and this
allows you to deduce what the run actually is, or at least make an
informed guess. Then you confirm by playing it and seeing whether, when
taken as a whole, it creates the same shape as the one you can hear on
the recording.
--
Mike.
Mark Marsh
> ... snip ...
> Still haven't played with
> anyone who can tell me if it's G major or minor, but I have hopes.
>
Ahhh Geee...
(is that a major or minor Geee?) :-)
Jim Carr
news:voh2h.721$B31...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Actually, I think that's a Gsus.
Nyuk! Chortle!
Kloka-mo'
--
-rob Bartlett, TN
O>
/(\)
^^
"Jim Carr" <newsg...@azwebpages.com> wrote in message
news:mTh2h.174853$SV1.1...@newsfe09.phx...
gigabit
Jim Carr wrote:
>
> Actually, I think that's a Gsus.
In all my doubts, perplexities and temptations, Gsus Help Me !
gigabit
Steve wrote:
> One thing though, maybe just a bad sound system/speakers. On many songs,
> I have trouble picking out the bass lines clearly. I play with the
> limited EQ on my PC but it's still hit and miss on many songs. Any
> benefit to one of those bass trainers, like the CD-BT1 or CD-BT1mkII type
> of thing? My birthday's coming up shortly, maybe I should add one to the
> list?
How about a pair of half decent powered studio monitors? Run em off
your comp. For a few hundred bucks you can be in a whole new audio
world.
Failing that, go to the ear training websites. I recommended
earplane.com
Start your study with melodic intervals.
It will work on the cheapest computer speakes.
So, just do it.
Right now.
I repeat myself : The melodic intervals are your abc's. Anyone that's
half way serious about playing, should pursue proper ear training.
With the 'net these days, it's so easy.
Even if you think you have a good ear, you'd be surprised at what you
don't hear properly.
NeilN
Plays Real Basses
Misifus
> AS far as improving my ear, I play along to CDs or radio. Playing fretless
> helps a lot more, but costs more than radio.
>
> As for figuring out on the fly, like others mentioned, I find the root, then
> try the third. Start with a quick flatted third, then slide up, till it
> sounds good :-) Hopefully it's so quick, the audience would never notice.
> I usually try to get the "key" from someone, which they don't usually offer
> until they KNOW I'm lost. After a few times of being lost and making them
> sound bad, they get more generous, and proactive. Still haven't played with
> anyone who can tell me if it's G major or minor, but I have hopes.
>
I know there are more knowledgeable folks here than I, but if you're
noodling around with a scale that fits the tune, and the note below the
tonic is only one fret (half-tone) down from the tonic, it's probably a
major scale. If the next note down seems to be a whole-tone (two frets)
you may be in a minor key.
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
mailto:raf_s...@cox.net
blog: http://rafsrincon.blogspot.com/
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
dusto...@mac.com
> One thing though, maybe just a bad sound system/speakers. On many songs,
> I have trouble picking out the bass lines clearly.
I have a set of 'puter speakers with sub that cost $20 + tax at the
friendly local cut-rate 'puter stuff store. They're branded Dell, don't
matter <g>.
I just run my Phillips portable personal CD player into the system.
The sub can be turned up to where you need to turn it down.
Not deluxe by any means but enough to get the job done, and you don't
have to run the 'puter.
Speaking of, you can download Apple's iTunes if you have a late-enough
version of Windows (XP? one of those).
The world listens to MP3's but iTunes has choices in the Preferences
area that give you a lot better sound quality (AAC codec, Apple
Lossless, and data rate options). True, iTunes downloads are MP3. I use
iTunes to make playlists for my Shuffle (old-style, which has pretty
good sound; some say the best of all the iPods) and/or burning CD's to
use in the portable or in the car.
One more... another handy-dandy is Roxio Toast Titanium.
I use this to "archive" new CD's and also used favorites. The codec is
Red Book, same as used to make most CD's, so there is (or shouldn't be)
any loss of data. Easy easy to use, and I have copies I can use in
hostile environments (the car) or in the portable. I like it better
than iTunes for making copies of CD's mostly because it's so easy to
use; the copying is done via a cache, right on the desktop so there is
no saving to the hard drive needed as with iTunes. Fast & friendly.
OK OK, 'nuff. --D-y
pTooner
"Misifus" <raf_s...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:454a05a5$0$12067$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> Kloka-mo' wrote:
>> AS far as improving my ear, I play along to CDs or radio. Playing
>> fretless helps a lot more, but costs more than radio.
>>
>> As for figuring out on the fly, like others mentioned, I find the root,
>> then try the third. Start with a quick flatted third, then slide up,
>> till it sounds good :-) Hopefully it's so quick, the audience would
>> never notice. I usually try to get the "key" from someone, which they
>> don't usually offer until they KNOW I'm lost. After a few times of being
>> lost and making them sound bad, they get more generous, and proactive.
>> Still haven't played with anyone who can tell me if it's G major or
>> minor, but I have hopes.
>>
>
>
> I know there are more knowledgeable folks here than I, but if you're
> noodling around with a scale that fits the tune, and the note below the
> tonic is only one fret (half-tone) down from the tonic, it's probably a
> major scale. If the next note down seems to be a whole-tone (two frets)
> you may be in a minor key.
>
> -Raf
>
I don't think I get that. The note one fret down from the tonic is the
Maj7. The note two frets down in the Dom7. The latter is more common in
nearly everything. Perhaps I'm not following you??
Gerry
Brian Running
> Maj7. The note two frets down in the Dom7. The latter is more common in
> nearly everything. Perhaps I'm not following you??
The note two frets down is the min7. The V7 chord is the "dominant
seventh."
If you're in a minor key, then it's most likely that the note "two frets
down" will sound right. If you're in a major key, then the note one
fret down will sound right. Pretty sure that's what Raf is saying.
Mike Hanson
> The note two frets down is the min7. The V7 chord is the "dominant
> seventh."
>
> If you're in a minor key, then it's most likely that the note "two frets
> down" will sound right. If you're in a major key, then the note one
> fret down will sound right. Pretty sure that's what Raf is saying.
The trouble with this is that Mode 5, with its flattened 7, is so
common in pop/rock/funk that it has almost become the default major
scale there.
--
Mike.
gigabit
I'm repeating this ad nauseum, I suppose because it would be nice if I
just opened one person up..
Why not try actually learning the sound of the intervals.
Then you'll have none of this "try this to see if it works or slide a
fret " thing.
Truth of it is : It's not very pretty on bass.
Music is a hearing art. Train your ears.
NeilN
Brian Running
> common in pop/rock/funk that it has almost become the default major
> scale there.
Maybe, but I'm also pretty sure that Raf was not stating a hard-and-fast
rule. As a general thing, he's on target.
Brian Running
> just opened one person up..
>
> Why not try actually learning the sound of the intervals.
>
> Then you'll have none of this "try this to see if it works or slide a
> fret " thing.
I don't know what else we could do, Neil -- Gerry, Mike and I were all
referring to the intervals. What should we have done?
Mike Hanson
> I'm repeating this ad nauseum, I suppose because it would be nice if I
> just opened one person up..
>
> Why not try actually learning the sound of the intervals.
>
> Then you'll have none of this "try this to see if it works or slide a
> fret " thing.
>
> Truth of it is : It's not very pretty on bass.
>
> Music is a hearing art. Train your ears.
Pedagogy. Trial and error is a massively effective way to train your
ears. Especially if the error turns out to be a howler.
--
Mike.
Pt
When playing bass you can get away with murder.
If you should play a flat5, min7 or min3rd.
Who's to say you're wrong?
(unless you are reading).
Pt
gigabit
The way I've been reading a lot of the thread is the suggested method
seems to be to pick a fingering spot, play that note, and if you don't
like it, repeat , until pleasing effect is achieved.
Whilst "learning" at home, I grant this is fine, but save a lot of
trouble, and learn the sounds properly using ear training tools. I did
this many years ago, and was totally surprised at what I wasn't good
at.
The difference is knowing/hearing what you're going to play before you
play it, not having it be some sort of pleasant or unpleasant surprise.
btw, Brian, i had a reply to you that must have been lost in that
monstrous Skynrd thread.
I'm assuming you're Saggitarious, so am I. 18th December for me. How
about you?
NeilN
Mike Hanson
> The way I've been reading a lot of the thread is the suggested method
> seems to be to pick a fingering spot, play that note, and if you don't
> like it, repeat , until pleasing effect is achieved.
This would be a good place for me to quote what I wrote elsewhere in
the thread:
"...your ability to pick out unclear basslines will improve over time.
It's
not that you'll hear it any more clearly, but that you'll get better at
deducing or anticipating what the note(s) must be and then confirming
your guess by listening, which is far easier than trying to hear them
directly."
> The difference is knowing/hearing what you're going to play before you
> play it, not having it be some sort of pleasant or unpleasant surprise.
Exactly.
--
Mike.
gigabit
Mike Hanson wrote:
> This would be a good place for me to quote what I wrote elsewhere in
> the thread:
>
> "...your ability to pick out unclear basslines will improve over time.
> It's
> not that you'll hear it any more clearly, but that you'll get better at
>
> deducing or anticipating what the note(s) must be and then confirming
> your guess by listening, which is far easier than trying to hear them
> directly."
I'm not looking for a scrap, but I do find that statement confusing.
Now, IIRC, we are both advocating one thing, that is lifting bass lines
from songs, and doing it a lot ?
What I'm on about is learning the pure intervals apart from songs, as
well.
Brian Running
> trouble, and learn the sounds properly using ear training tools. I did
> this many years ago, and was totally surprised at what I wasn't good
> at.
>
> The difference is knowing/hearing what you're going to play before you
> play it, not having it be some sort of pleasant or unpleasant surprise.
Can't argue with that.
> btw, Brian, i had a reply to you that must have been lost in that
> monstrous Skynrd thread.
>
> I'm assuming you're Saggitarious, so am I. 18th December for me. How
> about you?
When I said I'd be 47 in two months, I should have said "two months and
a few days" -- January 4, missed being born in the '50s by 4 days. I
think that makes me a Capricorn. But you got it right -- I'm an
oldornerySOB or whatever your expression was. Ornerier every day. :-)
Mike Hanson
What I was trying to say - badly - is that, as I see it, the former
skill leans so heavily on the latter that they might almost be
considered a single skill. Moreover, the practice of applying your
interval skills (both ear and finger) to the task of lifting basslines
will have the effect of improving your interval skills.
--
Mike.
gigabit
Brian Running wrote:
>
> When I said I'd be 47 in two months, I should have said "two months and
> a few days" -- January 4, missed being born in the '50s by 4 days. I
> think that makes me a Capricorn. But you got it right -- I'm an
> oldornerySOB or whatever your expression was. Ornerier every day. :-)
Well, seeing as yer kinda cuspy, with the power vested in me, ( none) I
appoint you to be an "Ornerary Suchacrabbyass".
Now, don't forget who your elders are then. What is that, 17 days?
But then, also a whole decade.
NeilN
gigabit
Pt wrote:
> When playing bass you can get away with murder.
> If you should play a flat5, min7 or min3rd.
> Who's to say you're wrong?
> (unless you are reading).
The MD ( unless you're unplugged )
Brian Running
> But then, also a whole decade.
Yeah, I like the decade better. You're a decade older than I am.
Sounds good. :-)
pTooner
"Brian Running" <brun...@XXameritechXX.net> wrote in message
news:bNr2h.254$r1...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
Gerry
Misifus
> "Misifus" <raf_s...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:454a05a5$0$12067$8826...@free.teranews.com...
>> Kloka-mo' wrote:
>>> AS far as improving my ear, I play along to CDs or radio. Playing
>>> fretless helps a lot more, but costs more than radio.
>>>
>>> As for figuring out on the fly, like others mentioned, I find the root,
>>> then try the third. Start with a quick flatted third, then slide up,
>>> till it sounds good :-) Hopefully it's so quick, the audience would
>>> never notice. I usually try to get the "key" from someone, which they
>>> don't usually offer until they KNOW I'm lost. After a few times of being
>>> lost and making them sound bad, they get more generous, and proactive.
>>> Still haven't played with anyone who can tell me if it's G major or
>>> minor, but I have hopes.
>>>
>>
>> I know there are more knowledgeable folks here than I, but if you're
>> noodling around with a scale that fits the tune, and the note below the
>> tonic is only one fret (half-tone) down from the tonic, it's probably a
>> major scale. If the next note down seems to be a whole-tone (two frets)
>> you may be in a minor key.
>>
>> -Raf
>>
>
> I don't think I get that. The note one fret down from the tonic is the
> Maj7. The note two frets down in the Dom7. The latter is more common in
> nearly everything. Perhaps I'm not following you??
>
Well, you are correct. However, you are speaking of intervals or
chords. I was speaking of scales. In an ordinary major scale, the half
tone intervals occur between the 3rd and 4th notes of the scale and
between the 7th and 8th notes. All the other notes are a whole tone
apart. I find that easy to pick up when I am playing a scale that fits
a tune. This is low tech, relatively theory free interpretation.
In a common minor scale the half tones occur between the 2nd and 3rd
notes and the 5th and 6th notes. I think some of you are leaping way
past where I am with this. <G>
-Raf
pTooner
Ah Ha!!! Now I follow you, thanks.
Gerry
Paul Cooke
no way jose...
you, as the floor for the group, cannot get away with playing notes that
aren't in the chord currently being played
the only note you can legitimately get away with that doesn't belong in the
current chord is the leading note to the next chord.
> Pt
--
XP, unsafe on the information highway at any speed
Mike Hanson
> Pt wrote:
>
> > When playing bass you can get away with murder.
> > If you should play a flat5, min7 or min3rd.
> > Who's to say you're wrong?
> > (unless you are reading).
>
> no way jose...
>
> you, as the floor for the group, cannot get away with playing notes that
> aren't in the chord currently being played
>
> the only note you can legitimately get away with that doesn't belong in the
> current chord is the leading note to the next chord.
Whilst I don't think "you can get away with murder" is an accurate
statement, neither is it true that the bassline is as restricted as you
imply. One might play a straight descending or ascending major scale
over a straight major chord, including little chromatic runs between 2
and 3 and between 4 and 5, and unless the tempo is very slow, the
harmonic implications will be entirely transient. Instead of a leading
note, you have a leading phrase.
Basslines enjoy the same freedom to dance over and around a chord as do
melodies. Whether an out-of-chord or out-of-scale note works or not
depends largely on how much emphasis is placed on it, but also on a
number of other factors that rapidly take this sort of decision beyond
the reach of sensible analysis. A good pair of ears will tell you
whether or not it's right/desirable/effective.
--
Mike.
Kloka-mo'
beat (one of my rules). And if you play it full volume, for everyone to
hear... you're be asking for dirty looks.
Drummers drop sticks, miss cymbals...
Guitarists sometimes mis-strum...
Vocalists forget a word...
If you're at a gig where it matters, y'all need to have your shit together.
If your at a jam, I would HOPE there is enough leeway for one slight oops
per song. If not, act according to your needs/desires.
--
-rob Bartlett, TN
O>
/(\)
^^
"Mike Hanson" <hanso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Oci-One Kanubi
> "Mark Marsh" <mark_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:voh2h.721$B31...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> > Kloka-mo' wrote:
> >
> >> ... snip ...
> >> Still haven't played with anyone who can tell me if it's G major or
> >> minor, but I have hopes.
> >>
> >
> > (is that a major or minor Geee?) :-)
>
> Actually, I think that's a Gsus.
>
Gee-zeus, that's bad!
Oci-One Kanubi
> "gigabit" <dalto...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:1162262120.0...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
>
> Here is another nice one: http://www.good-ear.com/.
>
> The thing that hepled me most, though, is figuring out some jazz standards
> like "All of me" by myself. Then checking my conclusions out in the real
> books. So, if you want to go that way, pick out any ol' jazz standard you
> like, but never played before. Try the play-along method and figure the
> changes by yourself. Then correct your ideas checking the real book. You'll
> be surprised how close you've come, and that some things you play maybe even
> fit better than what's written there in the Book.
>
> Why that? Because (you already know, but I'll repeat it) jazz standards
> contain most common chord-changes (and most complex ones) you will encounter
> in any other type of music. Except for some Istrian or other weird ethnic
> music. Anyways... if you get down those standards, you're safe in rock,
> blues, RNB, pop, bluegrass, you name it.
>
> Good luck with any path you choose!
Well, just to start out, I might recommend practising to old-time C&W
like Hank Williams, Buck Owens or Merle Haggard.
The structures are fairly simple and he can concentrate on pitch and
progression without being distracted by time-signature or rhythm
issues. A fringe benefit will be the discovery that C&W didn't always
suck.
I don't know if modern so-called "country music" would work as well,
since I never listen to that low-brow pop crap (the musicians might be
supurb, but stoopid songs are still stoopid songs, eh?)
-Richard