Sweet Home Alabama

[Pt]

What key is it in?
Chords are D, C, G.

Pt

[BW]

One, flat seven, four.

Key of D.

IMO

[Derek Tearne]

That's what I'd say too.

Although googling suggests that it is pedantically in G major.

However, I think the more important question is - if you're on stage,
there's a relentless drunk demanding Sweet Home Alabama, are you going
to say "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in D" or "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in
G with D as the functioning tonic, making it D Mixolydian".

I'd call D even if that risks being told off by an b.mus guys in the
band afterwards.

--- Derek



--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealand http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/
d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers band http://www.dGroove.co.nz/

[BW]

On May 22, 11:09 pm, de...@url.co.nz (Derek Tearne) wrote:

> BW <barrybass...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On May 22, 9:30 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > What key is it in?
> > > Chords are D, C, G.
>
> > > Pt
>
> > One, flat seven, four.
>
> > Key of D.
>
> That's what I'd say too.
>
> Although googling suggests that it is pedantically in G major.
>
> However, I think the more important question is - if you're on stage,
> there's a relentless drunk demanding Sweet Home Alabama, are you going
> to say "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in D" or "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in
> G with D as the functioning tonic, making it D Mixolydian".
>
> I'd call D even if that risks being told off by an b.mus guys in the
> band afterwards.
>
> --- Derek
>
> --
> Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz

> Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealandhttp://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/

> d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers bandhttp://www.dGroove.co.nz/

How 'bout, "Sweet Home Alabama, first chord is D". ?

[*e#c]

On May 23, 2:10 am, JimmyM <m...@nnn.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT), BW <barrybass...@yahoo.com>

> Skynyrd says G because the last chord they hit at the end is G.
> Caused an argument with their producer Tom Dowd, who said he thought
> it was in D.  But notice the leads are played in G.

WAIT!!! Jay the phonys reply will be along very shortly.....

[Les Cargill]

Derek Tearne wrote:
> BW <barryb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On May 22, 9:30 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> What key is it in?
>>> Chords are D, C, G.
>>>
>>> Pt
>>
>> One, flat seven, four.
>>
>> Key of D.
>
> That's what I'd say too.
>
> Although googling suggests that it is pedantically in G major.
>

Practically, too. Try a C# in it some time.

> However, I think the more important question is - if you're on stage,
> there's a relentless drunk demanding Sweet Home Alabama, are you going
> to say "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in D" or "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in
> G with D as the functioning tonic, making it D Mixolydian".
>
> I'd call D even if that risks being told off by an b.mus guys in the
> band afterwards.
>

First chord != key

> --- Derek
>
>
>


--
Les Cargill
--
Les Cargill

[Steve Freides]

JimmyM wrote:

> Skynyrd says G because the last chord they hit at the end is G.
> Caused an argument with their producer Tom Dowd, who said he thought
> it was in D. But notice the leads are played in G.

Barry gets it right, Derek gets it right.

D Mixolydian has the interval relationships of white key notes on G,
which is where the flat 7 comes from, but starting on D.

Just as Mixolydian looks like it's in C but it's really in G with a flat
7, so this transposed version looks like it's in G but it's really in D
with a flat 7. Saying it's in G is like saying any piece in any church
mode is in C - it'll give you the right notes but you miss seeing the
forest from being too busy looking at the trees.

-S-

[BW]

On May 23, 2:10 am, JimmyM <m...@nnn.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT), BW <barrybass...@yahoo.com>

> Skynyrd says G because the last chord they hit at the end is G.
> Caused an argument with their producer Tom Dowd, who said he thought
> it was in D.  But notice the leads are played in G.

I've encountered some people who assume the key is the same as
whatever the first chord in the song is. Equally silly (to state it
mildly).

The progression makes aural sense in D. Listen to it and notice how
the chords seem to resolve to a stable tone whenever you get back to
that D. (And conversely, seems to be unstable when it hits the G. That
G wants to go somewhere... maybe to the bar for a beer. After all, it
IS Skynyrd....)

[Pt]

The I, IV, V chords in the key of G are G, C, D.
It's in the key of G with a Tonal center of D.

Pt

[BW]

On May 23, 8:16 am, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote:
> Derek Tearne wrote:

Les, sorry, no cigar. Think of How Sweet It Is, the Motown/James
Taylor hit. The chorus, which starts the song if memory serves (at
least it does on the JT version), begins on the four chord. How 'bout
As Time Goes By, the standard classic. Begins on the minor two chord.
("You must remember this..."). Autumn Leaves, another example.
Lots of songs, probably the majority, begin on the tonic, but to rely
on the theory that it's always the case, and it's the way to
understand what key the song is in, is off base. And off bass.

[BW]

On May 23, 10:14 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> JimmyM wrote:

> > On Wed, 22 May 2013 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT), BW <barrybass...@yahoo.com>

Derek and I want to know what we win.

[Pt]

The melody to most songs is played/sung in a mode.
Every mode in the key of the song will work except for the 7th degree
(diminished) and there are exceptions to that.

The tonal center of a song depends on what mode the song uses.
Consider the tonal center as a home base.
The note that draws you back to it.
In SHA that is a D note but the song is in the key of G.
It uses the mixolydian mode.

Pt

[Brian Running]

> What key is it in?

It's in G, but of course if you had to call the key, you'd say D because that's where it starts. If you called G, you would have a train wreck.

I've never understood why this is such a big issue. People want so badly to say that it's in D, that they'll create such bizarre justifications as, "It's in D, but with a flat seven." There ain't any such thing. It's the key of G.

[Jay S]

"Pt" wrote in message
news:55325244-22ba-4749...@z8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

What about the F chord then?

Jay S

[Oci-One Kanubi]

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, BW wrote:
> On May 23, 8:16 am, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote: > Derek Tearne wrote: > > BW <barrybass...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> On May 22, 9:30 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> What key is it in? > >>> Chords are D, C, G. > > >>> Pt > > >> One, flat seven, four. > > >> Key of D. > > > That's what I'd say too. > > > Although googling suggests that it is pedantically in G major. > > Practically, too. Try a C# in it some time. > > > However, I think the more important question is - if you're on stage, > > there's a relentless drunk demanding Sweet Home Alabama, are you going > > to say "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in D" or "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in > > G with D as the functioning tonic, making it D Mixolydian". > > > I'd call D even if that risks being told off by an b.mus guys in the > > band afterwards. > > First chord != key > > > --- Derek > > -- > Les Cargill > -- > Les Cargill Les, sorry, no cigar. Think of How Sweet It Is, the Motown/James Taylor hit. The chorus, which starts the song if memory serves (at least it does on the JT version), begins on the four chord. How 'bout As Time Goes By, the standard classic. Begins on the minor two chord. ("You must remember this..."). Autumn Leaves, another example. Lots of songs, probably the majority, begin on the tonic, but to rely on the theory that it's always the case, and it's the way to understand what key the song is in, is off base. And off bass.

Oops, Barry. That's exactly what Les said: "First chord != key". "!=" is pronounced "does not equal", so his remark would be spoken as: "First chord does not [necessarily] equal [the] key."

-Kanubi, His Pedantic Travesty

[Brian Running]

> First chord != key

In fact, in 99.9% of the cases, the last chord is the key. You have to allow for key changes during the song, of course.

[BW]

Well, if that's how modern computereze works, I stand corrected. I
guess there's no way to make the old math sign of an equal sign with a
slash through it. "The signs, they are a-changin'."
I'll send Les a cigar.

[Steve Freides]

An "A" for this assignment in my class - and all the pride that comes
with that.

-S-

[Steve Freides]

Pt wrote:
> In SHA that is a D note but the song is in the key of G.
> It uses the mixolydian mode.

We understand what you mean but that's not how the rest of the world
describes it. "The song is in D Mixolydian" is what the rest of us say.
You understand what's going on musically, you're just saying it in an
odd way.

(The notes of D Mixolydian are the same notes as G Major in just the
same way that the notes of the original Mixolydian's notes are the same
as C Major.)

-S-

[BW]

> >>>>> Zealandhttp://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/d'Groove: 12 piece

> >>>>> party/covers bandhttp://www.dGroove.co.nz/
>
> >>>> How 'bout, "Sweet Home Alabama, first chord is D". ?
>
> >>> Skynyrd says G because the last chord they hit at the end is G.
> >>> Caused an argument with their producer Tom Dowd, who said he thought
> >>> it was in D. But notice the leads are played in G.
>
> >> Barry gets it right, Derek gets it right.
>
> > Derek and I want to know what we win.
>
> An "A" for this assignment in my class - and all the pride that comes
> with that.
>
> -S-

We accept.

[Les Cargill]

I think you misread. The symbol I used was "!=" which means "is not
equal to."

We're in violent agreement :)

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

BW wrote:
> On May 23, 12:28 pm, Oci-One Kanubi <rhop...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, BW wrote:
>>> On May 23, 8:16 am, Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote: > Derek Tearne wrote: > > BW <barrybass...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> On May 22, 9:30 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> What key is it in? > >>> Chords are D, C, G. > > >>> Pt > > >> One, flat seven, four. > > >> Key of D. > > > That's what I'd say too. > > > Although googling suggests that it is pedantically in G major. > > Practically, too. Try a C# in it some time. > > > However, I think the more important question is - if you're on stage, > > there's a relentless drunk demanding Sweet Home Alabama, are you going > > to say "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in D" or "Guys, Sweet Home Alabama, in > > G with D as the functioning tonic, making it D Mixolydian". > > > I'd call D even if that risks being told off by an b.mus guys in the > > band afterwards. > > First chord != key > > > --- Derek > > -- > Les Cargill > -- > Les Cargill Les, sorry, no cigar. Think of How Sweet It Is, the Motown/James Taylor hit. The chorus,
which starts the song if memory serves (at least it does on the JT version), begins on the four chord. How 'bout As Time Goes By, the standard classic. Begins on the minor two chord. ("You must remember this..."). Autumn Leaves, another example. Lots of songs, probably the majority, begin on the tonic, but to rely on the theory that it's always the case, and it's the way to understand what key the song is in, is off base. And off bass.
>>
>> Oops, Barry. That's exactly what Les said: "First chord != key". "!=" is pronounced "does not equal", so his remark would be spoken as: "First chord does not [necessarily] equal [the] key."
>>
>> -Kanubi, His Pedantic Travesty
>
> Well, if that's how modern computereze works, I stand corrected.

Sorry boot that.

> I
> guess there's no way to make the old math sign of an equal sign with a
> slash through it. "The signs, they are a-changin'."
> I'll send Les a cigar.
>

Kewl. Actually, <> is more readable, but being a 'C' programmer, I
default to "!=" as habit.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Brian Running wrote:
>> First chord != key
>
> In fact, in 99.9% of the cases, the last chord is the key.

Yep.

> You have to allow for key changes during the song, of course.
>

Indeed. Including permanent modulations.

--
Les Cargill

[Pt]

You gotta be from Chicago to understand what I say.

Pt

[BW]

What?

[Steve Freides]

BW wrote:
>> You gotta be from Chicago to understand what I say.
>>
>> Pt
>
> What?

:)

-S-

[Derek Tearne]

Steve Freides <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:

> BW wrote:

> > Derek and I want to know what we win.
>
> An "A" for this assignment in my class - and all the pride that comes
> with that.

I did admit to googling...

--- Derek


--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz

Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealand http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/

[Derek Tearne]

Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:

> Derek Tearne wrote:

> > I'd call D even if that risks being told off by an b.mus guys in the
> > band afterwards.

> First chord != key

That is correct. The thing I was taught in school, at an early age was
more like Last Chord == key.

It turns out that is also incorrect.

The problem is, most of us have school level music theory, which talks
about major and minor, but tends not to dwell on things like the
difference between harmonic, melodic and other pesky version of 'minor',
and avoids modes completely.

So any statement of the order of 'first/last' chord is the 'key' is
likely to fail in a small but significant number of cases.

And then we have a vast chunk of contemporary popular music which is
based on 'The Blues' which is based around one of those funky 'mode'
things.

In the case of SHA I ran the progression and melody through in my head
and D dropped out - not entirely sure how - but I suspect my internal
process is look for the 'pedal tone' that a lazy bass player like myself
can just keep playing all the way through. Which is D.

Now, I realise this is probably all theoretically wrong, but if calling
D is more likely to get everyone on the right page I'll call D.

Of course my bias is towards knowing what my first note is, as it's all
about me, and after that I don't really care what key it's in - I
infuriate some of the other members of the band by not bothering to
specify major or minor - I can hear the difference, of course, and play
appropriately, I just don't often bother to put things into those terms.

[Derek Tearne]

Pt <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You gotta be from Chicago to understand what I say.

Sweet Home Chicago.

I imagine that's quite a different sounding song...

[RichL]

"BW" <barryb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bbd8985b-7e40-4daf...@y5g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...

I'm surprised that so many responded with D. I've participated in long
pissing contests with pedants in another newsgroup who insist that it's in
G, because that's the easiest key to score it in. And they claim that "key"
and "key signature" are identical concepts.

I call BS on this, and also on Gary Rossington insisting the song is in G.
It *feels* like D, and I'm betting that 99% of musicians would call it as
"SHA in D".

[RichL]

"RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:krudnQ1DxYQKCgPM...@supernews.com...

> I'm surprised that so many responded with D. I've participated in long
> pissing contests with pedants in another newsgroup who insist that it's in
> G, because that's the easiest key to score it in. And they claim that
> "key" and "key signature" are identical concepts.
>
> I call BS on this, and also on Gary Rossington insisting the song is in G.
> It *feels* like D, and I'm betting that 99% of musicians would call it as
> "SHA in D".

I spoke (wrote) too soon. Read Brian's post after I wrote this. I still
insist that it's *intuitively* in D, and that calling it out in G would
result in a clusterf**k.

[Pt]

On May 23, 5:31 pm, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

I have the sheet music for it and it has one #.

Pt

[Les Cargill]

Derek Tearne wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>
>> Derek Tearne wrote:
>
>>> I'd call D even if that risks being told off by an b.mus guys in the
>>> band afterwards.
>
>> First chord != key
>
> That is correct. The thing I was taught in school, at an early age was
> more like Last Chord == key.
>
> It turns out that is also incorrect.
>

The key is whatever the copyist calls it. No copyist? Then whoever's
"musical director".

> The problem is, most of us have school level music theory, which talks
> about major and minor, but tends not to dwell on things like the
> difference between harmonic, melodic and other pesky version of 'minor',
> and avoids modes completely.
>

School is a lousy place to learn theory. I've run into prominent,
educated musos who don't even know about chord stacking.

> So any statement of the order of 'first/last' chord is the 'key' is
> likely to fail in a small but significant number of cases.
>

Yep.

> And then we have a vast chunk of contemporary popular music which is
> based on 'The Blues' which is based around one of those funky 'mode'
> things.
>

> In the case of SHA I ran the progression and melody through in my head
> and D dropped out - not entirely sure how - but I suspect my internal
> process is look for the 'pedal tone' that a lazy bass player like myself
> can just keep playing all the way through. Which is D.
>

I don't like that test very much :)

> Now, I realise this is probably all theoretically wrong, but if calling
> D is more likely to get everyone on the right page I'll call D.
>

...

> Of course my bias is towards knowing what my first note is,

Absolutely.

> as it's all
> about me, and after that I don't really care what key it's in - I
> infuriate some of the other members of the band by not bothering to
> specify major or minor - I can hear the difference, of course, and play
> appropriately, I just don't often bother to put things into those terms.
>

Major/minor doesn't affect bass as much. Depending on what chord
you're going to next, you may well break out of the tonal center for a
while anyway. You don't have to be in a dim chord to
use a dim walkup, for example.

[Steve Freides]

Yes, and that's the point about modes. A piece of music in the original
Mixolydian would have no key signature yet _not_ be in C major, it would
be in Mixolydian, and the same goes for any of the other church modes
and music written in them. D Mixolydian, and every other Mixyolydian,
is going to seem like it has one too few sharps (or one too many flats).

Music history abounds with examples of things like this, btw, e.g.,
there are Bach Chorales that have the "wrong" key signature because the
melodies were originally modal and Bach kept the original key signatures
even though he harmonized them differently.

People who aren't sure about this should read up on the Church Modes.
Look at the Wiki here, for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)

The first musical example is C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C and has the title Dorian
Mode in C. No one thinks it's somehow in the key of Bb.

One could, for this purpose, skip the stuff about ancient Greece and go
down to where it says Western Church. (It has a cool musical example,
a 4-line staff with the clef fixing middle C on the top line, the rough
equivalent of our modern tenor clef.)

-S-

-S-

[Derek Tearne]

JimmyM <m...@nnn.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 23 May 2013 10:14:17 -0400, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com>
> wrote:
>
> >JimmyM wrote:

> >> On Wed, 22 May 2013 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT), BW <barryb...@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:

> >> Skynyrd says G because the last chord they hit at the end is G.
> >> Caused an argument with their producer Tom Dowd, who said he thought
> >> it was in D. But notice the leads are played in G.
> >

> >Barry gets it right, Derek gets it right.
> >

> >D Mixolydian has the interval relationships of white key notes on G,
> >which is where the flat 7 comes from, but starting on D.
> >
> >Just as Mixolydian looks like it's in C but it's really in G with a flat
> >7, so this transposed version looks like it's in G but it's really in D
> >with a flat 7. Saying it's in G is like saying any piece in any church
> >mode is in C - it'll give you the right notes but you miss seeing the
> >forest from being too busy looking at the trees.
>
> You're going to argue with Skynyrd themselves?

Given a choice of argreeing with Skynyrd and agreeing with Tom freekin'
Dowd, I'm going to pick the genius who only got into the record business
because his original career path in nuclear physics was denied to him
because he'd done so much top secret stuff saving the free world as part
of the manhattan project before graduating - stuff that he couldn't talk
about, and that his tutors didn't know, and disagreed completely with
the curriculum he would have been greaded against, that he had to change
lines of work. The guy who invented 8 track recording, linear faders[1]
and all manner of other stuff.



Now, all props to Skynyrd for being southern rock legends and
everything, but we're talkingTom Dowd here.

There's no doubt Dowd was your actual bona fide Genius.

I'm siding with Tom.

--- Derek

[1] Maybe not invented, more like pioneered, but I didn't want to break
the flow of a good rant.

--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz

Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealand http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/

[Brian Running]

> Given a choice of argreeing with Skynyrd and agreeing with Tom freekin'
>
> Dowd, I'm going to pick the genius who only got into the record business
>
> because his original career path in nuclear physics was denied to him
>
> because he'd done so much top secret stuff saving the free world as part
>
> of the manhattan project before graduating - stuff that he couldn't talk
>
> about, and that his tutors didn't know, and disagreed completely with
>
> the curriculum he would have been greaded against, that he had to change
>
> lines of work. The guy who invented 8 track recording, linear faders[1]
>
> and all manner of other stuff.

This is a perfect example of the kind of tortured rationalization I'm talking about. You just want - need - Sweet Home Alabama to be in the key of D so bad that you will ignore the composers of the song, and instead go with the producer, because - well, because of a bunch of stuff that has nothing at all to do with music. Okey dokey.

[BW]

Did I miss something and there's a place (good song) where the
composers state what key it's in? Or are you going by the sheet
music? Just curious, and I won't lose sleep over it, and neither
should anyone else.

But as most educated musicians know, it's actually in Ab, modulated up
(or down) a tritone.

I dunno, there are so many other things to squabble about...

[Steve Freides]

JimmyM wrote:

-snip-

>> Barry gets it right, Derek gets it right.
>>
>> D Mixolydian has the interval relationships of white key notes on G,
>> which is where the flat 7 comes from, but starting on D.
>>
>> Just as Mixolydian looks like it's in C but it's really in G with a
>> flat 7, so this transposed version looks like it's in G but it's
>> really in D with a flat 7. Saying it's in G is like saying any
>> piece in any church mode is in C - it'll give you the right notes
>> but you miss seeing the forest from being too busy looking at the
>> trees.
>
> You're going to argue with Skynyrd themselves?

[SNL SKIT]

I got chunks o' guys tougher than them in my stool.

[/SNL SKIT]

Anybody remember that old SNL routine? It's the Frank Sinatra character
who utters that line, and I think it's to the Billy Idol character.

Seriously, I don't think you could find anyone who'd tell you the first
note of the vocal, which is an F#, sounds like the leading tone (scale
degree 7) in the key of G major. It's just like, you know, like, uh,
not possible, even if yure standin' on yure head in da Southern
Hemisphere - or somethin'...

OK, now seriously for real, people write music shouldn't try to explain
it - because they don't need to, and because they often (not always)
can't - and people like me who explain music for a living generally do a
lousy job when we try to write music.

-S-

[Les Cargill]

Steve Freides wrote:
> JimmyM wrote:
>
> -snip-
>
>>> Barry gets it right, Derek gets it right.
>>>
>>> D Mixolydian has the interval relationships of white key notes on G,
>>> which is where the flat 7 comes from, but starting on D.
>>>
>>> Just as Mixolydian looks like it's in C but it's really in G with a
>>> flat 7, so this transposed version looks like it's in G but it's
>>> really in D with a flat 7. Saying it's in G is like saying any
>>> piece in any church mode is in C - it'll give you the right notes
>>> but you miss seeing the forest from being too busy looking at the
>>> trees.
>>
>> You're going to argue with Skynyrd themselves?
>
> [SNL SKIT]
>
> I got chunks o' guys tougher than them in my stool.
>

One of the great lines of all time, right there. The great
Phil Hartman as The Chairman.

> [/SNL SKIT]
>
> Anybody remember that old SNL routine? It's the Frank Sinatra character
> who utters that line, and I think it's to the Billy Idol character.
>

I think it is.

Although I remember "I got chunks a' guys like you in my stool." I
only bring that up because it scans better.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/3531

About 5:30 in.

> Seriously, I don't think you could find anyone who'd tell you the first
> note of the vocal, which is an F#, sounds like the leading tone (scale
> degree 7) in the key of G major. It's just like, you know, like, uh,
> not possible, even if yure standin' on yure head in da Southern
> Hemisphere - or somethin'...
>
> OK, now seriously for real, people write music shouldn't try to explain
> it - because they don't need to, and because they often (not always)
> can't - and people like me who explain music for a living generally do a
> lousy job when we try to write music.
>

There are certainly people who can do both. This being said,
"... dancing about architecture" and all those cliches...

> -S-
>
>

--
Les Cargill

[Brian Running]

> Seriously, I don't think you could find anyone who'd tell you the first
> note of the vocal, which is an F#, sounds like the leading tone (scale
> degree 7) in the key of G major. It's just like, you know, like, uh,
> not possible, even if yure standin' on yure head in da Southern
> Hemisphere - or somethin'...

Well, no shit you're not going to find someone who'll tell you that! Why would that ever even occur to anyone? That F# bends down to the actual first note of the vocal line, which is E, and the line resolves at the end to... G. No big surprise there.

> OK, now seriously for real, people write music shouldn't try to explain
> it - because they don't need to, and because they often (not always)
> can't - and people like me who explain music for a living generally do a
> lousy job when we try to write music.

Oh, I get it now - you're not being serious. This was all tongue-in-cheek. Good one! :-)

[Derek Tearne]

Brian Running <runnin...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> This is a perfect example of the kind of tortured rationalization I'm
> talking about. You just want - need - Sweet Home Alabama to be
> in the key of D so bad that you will ignore the composers of the song,
> and instead go with the producer, because - well, because of a
> bunch of stuff that has nothing at all to do with music. Okey dokey.

I don't really care what 'key' it is in, personally.

The question was, essentially, "Who would you side with, a bunch of
self-taught rock musicians or the record producer, who has so many high
level qualifications in subjects ranging from electronics to music, who
is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest music producers of all
time, who had an actual formal music education at City College of New
York and would have generally been the cleverest person in the room at
any given time..."

Yup, unless the composer was, say, Beethoven, I'd side with the genius
music producer with, among other things, formal qualifications in music.

--- Derek

[Les Cargill]

Derek Tearne wrote:
> Brian Running <runnin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> This is a perfect example of the kind of tortured rationalization I'm
>> talking about. You just want - need - Sweet Home Alabama to be
>> in the key of D so bad that you will ignore the composers of the song,
>> and instead go with the producer, because - well, because of a
>> bunch of stuff that has nothing at all to do with music. Okey dokey.
>
> I don't really care what 'key' it is in, personally.
>
> The question was, essentially, "Who would you side with, a bunch of
> self-taught rock musicians or the record producer, who has so many high
> level qualifications in subjects ranging from electronics to music, who
> is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest music producers of all
> time, who had an actual formal music education at City College of New
> York and would have generally been the cleverest person in the room at
> any given time..."
>

<raises hand> I'd actually take Ed King's word over Tom Dowd's because
Ed hadda play solos on it. Ed King is not exactly chopped liver. None of
those guys are/were.

Being smart is like four wheel drive. You still get stuck
with four wheel drive you just get stuck deeper.

> Yup, unless the composer was, say, Beethoven, I'd side with the genius
> music producer with, among other things, formal qualifications in music.
>

Don't assume those guys were/are dumb. Mebbe get a blister onyer...
little finger...

> --- Derek
>
>

[RichL]

"Brian Running" <runnin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:adcfe609-3016-4bd8...@googlegroups.com...

>> Seriously, I don't think you could find anyone who'd tell you the first
>> note of the vocal, which is an F#, sounds like the leading tone (scale
>> degree 7) in the key of G major. It's just like, you know, like, uh,
>> not possible, even if yure standin' on yure head in da Southern
>> Hemisphere - or somethin'...
>
>
> Well, no shit you're not going to find someone who'll tell you that! Why
> would that ever even occur to anyone? That F# bends down to the actual
> first note of the vocal line, which is E, and the line resolves at the end
> to... G. No big surprise there.

Even transcribers who score the song in G represent that first note as a
distinct F#, not a bend.

[Derek Tearne]

Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:

> Derek Tearne wrote:
>

> <raises hand> I'd actually take Ed King's word over Tom Dowd's because
> Ed hadda play solos on it. Ed King is not exactly chopped liver. None of
> those guys are/were.

OK, hands up, how many people here have played solos over tunes without
knowing, in a formal sense, what key or mode the tune is in.

I know I have.

Obviously, I know what notes are going to work, so on some level I know
what mode to play in, but often I'd have to go back and transcribe what
I played to be able to say for sure.

> > Yup, unless the composer was, say, Beethoven, I'd side with the genius
> > music producer with, among other things, formal qualifications in music.

> Don't assume those guys were/are dumb. Mebbe get a blister onyer...
> little finger...

I'm not assuming they weren't fairly bright individuals. I'm assuming
that, on balance of probability, the actually demonstrable genius is
going to be brighter.

[Pt]

On May 24, 6:56 pm, de...@url.co.nz (Derek Tearne) wrote:

> Les Cargill <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote:
> > Derek Tearne wrote:
>
> > <raises hand> I'd actually take Ed King's word over Tom Dowd's because
> > Ed hadda play solos on it. Ed King is not exactly chopped liver. None of
> > those guys are/were.
>
> OK, hands up, how many people here have played solos over tunes without
> knowing, in a formal sense, what key or mode the tune is in.

Half of the time when playing I don't know what key the song is in.
I know but I have to think about it.

Pt

[Les Cargill]

Derek Tearne wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>
>> Derek Tearne wrote:
>>
>> <raises hand> I'd actually take Ed King's word over Tom Dowd's because
>> Ed hadda play solos on it. Ed King is not exactly chopped liver. None of
>> those guys are/were.
>
> OK, hands up, how many people here have played solos over tunes without
> knowing, in a formal sense, what key or mode the tune is in.
>
> I know I have.
>

Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
Actually Die. You could dream the whole thing from
memory and never wake up.

Besides, you have at least one of two choices for the key now,
both separated by a single piddling sharp.

Wars have been started over less.

> Obviously, I know what notes are going to work, so on some level I know
> what mode to play in,

Right right!

> but often I'd have to go back and transcribe what
> I played to be able to say for sure.
>
>>> Yup, unless the composer was, say, Beethoven, I'd side with the genius
>>> music producer with, among other things, formal qualifications in music.
>
>> Don't assume those guys were/are dumb. Mebbe get a blister onyer...
>> little finger...
>
> I'm not assuming they weren't fairly bright individuals. I'm assuming
> that, on balance of probability, the actually demonstrable genius is
> going to be brighter.
>

We can always hope that that will be the case. Remember my metaphor
about four wheel drive? This happens, you know.

[Les Cargill]

I think what the melody I am playing is. If it's not a melody, I think
about the note placement, and not the notes.


It's a melody a surprising amount of the time.

--
Les Cargill

[Derek Tearne]

Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:

> We can always hope that that will be the case. Remember my metaphor
> about four wheel drive? This happens, you know.

I may have a clearer understanding of your metaphor than you imagine...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/drtearne/4541875970/

If you get stuck in your four wheel drive, far away from where most
people even imagine it is possible to go, is that such a bad thing?

[Les Cargill]

Derek Tearne wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>
>> We can always hope that that will be the case. Remember my metaphor
>> about four wheel drive? This happens, you know.
>
> I may have a clearer understanding of your metaphor than you imagine...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/drtearne/4541875970/
>

Schweet!

> If you get stuck in your four wheel drive, far away from where most
> people even imagine it is possible to go, is that such a bad thing?
>
> --- Derek
>

My point is about trying to reduce errors. For example, Tom Scholz
literally does not believe in digital electronics. He's a very
smart guy. But...

--
Les Cargill

[Derek Tearne]

Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:

> Derek Tearne wrote:
> > Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
> >
> >> We can always hope that that will be the case. Remember my metaphor
> >> about four wheel drive? This happens, you know.
> >
> > I may have a clearer understanding of your metaphor than you imagine...
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/drtearne/4541875970/
> >
>
> Schweet!
>
> > If you get stuck in your four wheel drive, far away from where most
> > people even imagine it is possible to go, is that such a bad thing?
>

> My point is about trying to reduce errors. For example, Tom Scholz
> literally does not believe in digital electronics. He's a very
> smart guy. But...

Reducing errors is a good thing. Drove down the entire continent of
Africa. Got stuck 5 times. 3 of them on the same day.

I don't believe in electric winches. Turned out to be a good decision.
You can do so much more with a manual winch. And if the place where the
electric winch would have been is buried in innaccessible mud. it is not
that much use.

Not believing in digital electronics. That's going a bit far though.

[BW]

> Drove down the entire continent of Africa.

Gee, Derek, gotta be some stories there... hope to hear some
someday...

[Derek Tearne]

It was a long time ago, but fortunately I wrote it all out. Otherwise
the animals would have got bigger. the holes in the road longer. and the
mud muddier through time.

http://url.co.nz/african_trip/

Turns out the some of the animals were actually quite big, the holes in
the road quite long and deep, and the mud as muddy as mud can be.

[BW]

On May 25, 7:09 pm, de...@url.co.nz (Derek Tearne) wrote:

> BW <barrybass...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Drove down the entire continent of Africa.
>
> > Gee, Derek, gotta be some stories there...  hope to hear some
> > someday...
>
> It was a long time ago, but fortunately I wrote it all out.  Otherwise
> the animals would have got bigger. the holes in the road longer. and the
> mud muddier through time.
>
> http://url.co.nz/african_trip/
>
> Turns out the some of the animals were actually quite big, the holes in
> the road quite long and deep, and the mud as muddy as mud can be.
>
> --- Derek
>
> --
> Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz

> Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealandhttp://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/

> d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers bandhttp://www.dGroove.co.nz/

Wow. Good job, Derek.

Thanks for posting it!!!!!!

[geoff]

"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message
news:knp6i0$col$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
> Actually Die.

... more is the pity. I loath it.

Not only for the boring repetitive phrasing, but the vile sentiments in the
lyric. Rednecks might differ ....

geoff

[geoff]

"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message

news:knr24v$s26$1...@dont-email.me...

> Derek Tearne wrote:

> My point is about trying to reduce errors. For example, Tom Scholz
> literally does not believe in digital electronics. He's a very
> smart guy. But...

.... but religous in his flawed convictions.

Like Niel Young. No rational logic can defeat this. Or proof through
double-blind testing apparently.

geoff

[geoff]

"Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1l3h3j8.18gjklsiern5hN%de...@url.co.nz...

>
> I don't believe in electric winches.

Oh, they definitely do exist !

>Turned out to be a good decision.
> You can do so much more with a manual winch. And if the place where the
> electric winch would have been is buried in innaccessible mud. it is not
> that much use.

How about an electric winch and an manual one as backup ? Best of both
worlds !

>
> Not believing in digital electronics. That's going a bit far though.

Not believing in evolution is even dumber, and there is a prominent nation
of religous fundamentalist (who don't even realise that they are) where that
view is pretty popular..


geoff

[geoff]

"Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message

news:1l3h4k8.1065t7k1vbdqelN%de...@url.co.nz...

> BW <barryb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > Drove down the entire continent of Africa.
>>
>> Gee, Derek, gotta be some stories there... hope to hear some
>> someday...
>
> It was a long time ago, but fortunately I wrote it all out. Otherwise
> the animals would have got bigger. the holes in the road longer. and the
> mud muddier through time.
>
> http://url.co.nz/african_trip/
>
> Turns out the some of the animals were actually quite big, the holes in
> the road quite long and deep, and the mud as muddy as mud can be.

Shit I wish I'd kept a diary of my travels. Driving (nothing quite on your
scale) down thru Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and back. And another car
trip from Baghdad out thru Jordan, Syria, Turket to Istanbul, and then back
to Baghdad all this DURING the Kuwait crisis !

Sadly many of the memories and accuracy of the facts have faded over the
years ;-(

Playing bass and music in general hopefully will keep my mind active enough
to reduce the rate of decay !

geoff

[Derek Tearne]

geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:

> Shit I wish I'd kept a diary of my travels. Driving (nothing quite on your
> scale) down thru Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and back. And another car
> trip from Baghdad out thru Jordan, Syria, Turket to Istanbul, and then back
> to Baghdad all this DURING the Kuwait crisis !

That sounds pretty reasonable scaled to me. Badhdad to Istandul must
have been a trip!

The African trip was around the same time - the start was postponed due
to gulf war I unpleasantness.

> Sadly many of the memories and accuracy of the facts have faded over the
> years ;-(

Indeed, having the journal keeps me honest.

> Playing bass and music in general hopefully will keep my mind active enough
> to reduce the rate of decay !

This is my goal too.

Now, where did I put my bass?

[Derek Tearne]

Wikipedia and other testimony suggest that SHA isn't a pro-racist song.
More a grumpy about northerners

[Derek Tearne]

geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:

> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1l3h3j8.18gjklsiern5hN%de...@url.co.nz...
> >
> > I don't believe in electric winches.
>
> Oh, they definitely do exist !
>
> >Turned out to be a good decision.
> > You can do so much more with a manual winch. And if the place where the
> > electric winch would have been is buried in innaccessible mud. it is not
> > that much use.
>
> How about an electric winch and an manual one as backup ? Best of both
> worlds !

As it turned out, the electronic winch I had originally intended to
mount on the Landrover would have eaten up approximately 1/3 of our
equipment budget and, the one time we needed to use it to get ourselves
out of trouble, would have been absolutely useless.

And even though the Landrover is long gone, I still have, and
occasionally use, the manual winch.

> > Not believing in digital electronics. That's going a bit far though.
>
> Not believing in evolution is even dumber, and there is a prominent nation
> of religous fundamentalist (who don't even realise that they are) where that
> view is pretty popular..

Not believing in evolution is a bit like not believing in gravity.

[BW]

....Those crazy Tahitians....

[RichL]

"Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message

news:1l3jxgk.1lb3zz514ziqokN%de...@url.co.nz...

> geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> "Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message
>> news:knp6i0$col$1...@dont-email.me...
>> >
>> > Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
>> > Actually Die.
>>
>> ... more is the pity. I loath it.
>>
>> Not only for the boring repetitive phrasing, but the vile sentiments in
>> the
>> lyric. Rednecks might differ ....
>
>
> Wikipedia and other testimony suggest that SHA isn't a pro-racist song.
> More a grumpy about northerners

It's a fine line. Even today, we have Confederate flags flying, statues of
Confederate war heroes gracing the entrances to courthouses, and Southern
states threatening to secede from the Union. Of course, all of this is in
celebration of "states' rights" (still being taught as the "cause" of the
Civil War in most Southern schools) and the veneration of antecedents.

We from the North see things a bit differently, of course, the kindest spin
being that they're nursing a 150-year-old "mad-on".

The South's younger generation, for the most part, looks on all of this with
a bit of puzzlement.

[BW]

On May 27, 9:41 am, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>
> news:1l3jxgk.1lb3zz514ziqokN%de...@url.co.nz...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
>

> >> "Les Cargill" <lcargil...@comcast.com> wrote in message

> >>news:knp6i0$col$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> >> > Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
> >> > Actually Die.
>
> >> ... more is the pity. I loath it.
>
> >> Not only for the boring repetitive phrasing, but the vile sentiments in
> >> the
> >> lyric. Rednecks might differ ....
>
> > Wikipedia and other testimony suggest that SHA isn't a pro-racist song.
> > More a grumpy about northerners
>
> It's a fine line.  Even today, we have Confederate flags flying, statues of
> Confederate war heroes gracing the entrances to courthouses, and Southern
> states threatening to secede from the Union.  Of course, all of this is in
> celebration of "states' rights" (still being taught as the "cause" of the
> Civil War in most Southern schools) and the veneration of antecedents.
>
> We from the North see things a bit differently, of course, the kindest spin
> being that they're nursing a 150-year-old "mad-on".
>
> The South's younger generation, for the most part, looks on all of this with
> a bit of puzzlement.

The younger generation looks on almost everything with puzzlement.
There's a reason. Our education system (and so much else) is falling
apart. It's fixable, yet we keep our heads firmly planted in the
sand.
I refer you to a clip of a drama which speaks the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKklog0T9a4

[Les Cargill]

It's actually criticizing those "vile sentiments".

"In Birmingham we love the Governor ( Boo boo boo ).
We all did what we could do.
Now Watergate does not bother me.
Does your conscience bother you?"

"The Governor" is George Wallace, one of the last Segregationist
politicians. It *is* a subtle song; it's kinda like "Okie From
Muskogee". The narrator of the song is a character being created
by the singer to represent a view the singer would
like to then knock down - sort of a strawman.

The song was a reaction song to one
by Neil Young - Alabama - and was tongue in cheek. Neil and Ronnie
Van Zandt were friends. Ronnie wore a Neil Young T shirt on the cover
of "Street Survivors".

Given that, I don't mind playing it for rednecks because they
miss the point. It also manages to separate some affection for Alabama
as a place from the Lost Cause. If you have never been to Alabama,
it's a physically beautiful place and the people are generally nice,
friendly and open. It's just this one huge dark ugly stain on
all that, and I feel Mr. Van Zandt dealt with it well.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

RichL wrote:
> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1l3jxgk.1lb3zz514ziqokN%de...@url.co.nz...
>> geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> "Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message
>>> news:knp6i0$col$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> >
>>> > Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
>>> > Actually Die.
>>>
>>> ... more is the pity. I loath it.
>>>
>>> Not only for the boring repetitive phrasing, but the vile sentiments
>>> in the
>>> lyric. Rednecks might differ ....
>>
>>
>> Wikipedia and other testimony suggest that SHA isn't a pro-racist song.
>> More a grumpy about northerners
>

It's an ironic song.

> It's a fine line. Even today, we have Confederate flags flying, statues
> of Confederate war heroes gracing the entrances to courthouses,

Well, they did actually exist. We also have significant quantities
of military bases named after them. There are not that many stories
of 19th Century military "honor" in American history, so they
get highlighted.

Grant and Sherman are less sympathetic as narrative
figures than say Stonewall Jackson or Robert E. Lee.

> and
> Southern states threatening to secede from the Union.

Heh.

> Of course, all of
> this is in celebration of "states' rights" (still being taught as the
> "cause" of the Civil War in most Southern schools)

the Other Thing emerged as a cause in the War; it was
not initially a part of the calculus. The underlying
thing was the inability to construct legal mechanisms
to keep a nation half slave and half free.

but that was largely hubris.

Economically, various Panics had ruined the US economy
to the point to where the only thing that had investment
value in the South were slaves. Southern cotton exports
were also one of the main trade goods by a wide margin
as feedstocks to the British textile industries.

The rest is all murky and had to do with some sort
of Jefferson vs. Hamilton divide on the lines of Federalism.

And you just can't easily explain how an honor culture works.

> and the veneration of
> antecedents.
>

That's not in itself a bad thing.

> We from the North see things a bit differently, of course, the kindest
> spin being that they're nursing a 150-year-old "mad-on".
>

"You lost; get over it." :)

> The South's younger generation, for the most part, looks on all of this
> with a bit of puzzlement.

Right. But 150 years isn't that long for a people to come to terms
with something as wrenching as the Civil War. There were living
fossils from the War until the 1920s; these things take time.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

BW wrote:
> On May 27, 9:41 am, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

>
> The younger generation looks on almost everything with puzzlement.
> There's a reason. Our education system (and so much else) is falling
> apart. It's fixable, yet we keep our heads firmly planted in the
> sand.

We have exactly the system we want. Decouple real estate from
education ad we might have a chance.

> I refer you to a clip of a drama which speaks the truth.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKklog0T9a4
>

http://www.theonion.com/articles/terrified-newsroom-writers-nodding-heads-at-every,32028/

--
Les Cargill

[Pt]

> I refer you to a clip of a drama which speaks the truth.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKklog0T9a4-

I play in bands and even though I'm old all I can get for band members
are young people.
I try to go along with their ideas but it becomes impossible.
We have nothing in common except that we are all human.
Cell phones, ipads, video games and hiphop are what they care about.
If you asked them how many states there are the answers are varied
from 54 to 48.
The US started changing in the 80's when most people thought only of
themselves.
"Ask not what your country can do for you" etc has changed to what
your country can do for me.
Now in 2013 there is little resemblance to what we used to be.
Time marches on and important things are forgotten or they simply
don't care.
Where are we going?

Pt

[RichL]

"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message

news:knvrn1$8h7$2...@dont-email.me...

Hah! Beat me to it!

[RichL]

"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message

news:knvrie$8h7$1...@dont-email.me...

> RichL wrote:
>> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>> news:1l3jxgk.1lb3zz514ziqokN%de...@url.co.nz...
>>> geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:knp6i0$col$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>> >
>>>> > Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
>>>> > Actually Die.
>>>>
>>>> ... more is the pity. I loath it.
>>>>
>>>> Not only for the boring repetitive phrasing, but the vile sentiments
>>>> in the
>>>> lyric. Rednecks might differ ....
>>>
>>>
>>> Wikipedia and other testimony suggest that SHA isn't a pro-racist song.
>>> More a grumpy about northerners
>>
>
> It's an ironic song.
>
>> It's a fine line. Even today, we have Confederate flags flying, statues
>> of Confederate war heroes gracing the entrances to courthouses,
>
> Well, they did actually exist. We also have significant quantities
> of military bases named after them. There are not that many stories
> of 19th Century military "honor" in American history, so they
> get highlighted.
>
> Grant and Sherman are less sympathetic as narrative
> figures than say Stonewall Jackson or Robert E. Lee.

Well sure. It's easy to romanticize the "lost cause".

>
>> and
>> Southern states threatening to secede from the Union.
>
> Heh.
>
>> Of course, all of
>> this is in celebration of "states' rights" (still being taught as the
>> "cause" of the Civil War in most Southern schools)
>
> the Other Thing emerged as a cause in the War; it was
> not initially a part of the calculus. The underlying
> thing was the inability to construct legal mechanisms
> to keep a nation half slave and half free.
>
> but that was largely hubris.

The Republican Party scared the bejesus out of the South. Look at SC, which
didn't even wait for Lincoln to be inaugurated to secede.

SC's secession declaration is illuminating:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/South_Carolina_Declaration_of_the_Causes_of_Secession

It's all about slavery and the refusal of Northern states to aid the South
in perpetuating the "peculiar institution".

>
> Economically, various Panics had ruined the US economy
> to the point to where the only thing that had investment
> value in the South were slaves. Southern cotton exports
> were also one of the main trade goods by a wide margin
> as feedstocks to the British textile industries.

But the South made a deliberate decision not to industrialize - one that,
ironically, ultimately lost them the war.

>
> The rest is all murky and had to do with some sort
> of Jefferson vs. Hamilton divide on the lines of Federalism.
>
> And you just can't easily explain how an honor culture works.
>
>> and the veneration of
>> antecedents.
>>
> That's not in itself a bad thing.

No, but in the context of the war and slavery, it's regarded much
differently by the South's black citizens.

>
>> We from the North see things a bit differently, of course, the kindest
>> spin being that they're nursing a 150-year-old "mad-on".
>>
>
> "You lost; get over it." :)
>
>> The South's younger generation, for the most part, looks on all of this
>> with a bit of puzzlement.
>
> Right. But 150 years isn't that long for a people to come to terms
> with something as wrenching as the Civil War. There were living
> fossils from the War until the 1920s; these things take time.

The Brits got over us winning the Revolutionary war in a much shorter period
(as did Canada).

[geoff]

"Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1l3jxgk.1lb3zz514ziqokN%de...@url.co.nz...

> geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> "Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message
>> news:knp6i0$col$1...@dont-email.me...
>> >
>> > Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
>> > Actually Die.
>>
>> ... more is the pity. I loath it.
>>
>> Not only for the boring repetitive phrasing, but the vile sentiments in
>> the
>> lyric. Rednecks might differ ....
>
>
> Wikipedia and other testimony suggest that SHA isn't a pro-racist song.
> More a grumpy about northerners

And Watergate doesn't bother him ? My concience certainly doesn't bother me
!

geoff

[Derek Tearne]

RichL <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1l3jxgk.1lb3zz514ziqokN%de...@url.co.nz...
> > geoff <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >> "Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message
> >> news:knp6i0$col$1...@dont-email.me...
> >> >
> >> > Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
> >> > Actually Die.
> >>
> >> ... more is the pity. I loath it.
> >>
> >> Not only for the boring repetitive phrasing, but the vile sentiments in
> >> the
> >> lyric. Rednecks might differ ....
> >
> >
> > Wikipedia and other testimony suggest that SHA isn't a pro-racist song.
> > More a grumpy about northerners
>
> It's a fine line. Even today, we have Confederate flags flying, statues of
> Confederate war heroes gracing the entrances to courthouses, and Southern
> states threatening to secede from the Union.

Isn't that the point of the song though? Don't assume that, just
because there are confederate flags flying, and we're proud of our
history, that we are proud of *all* of our history. And you northerners
shining that beam at us have a few motes in your own eyes.

Essentially, who are you to judge us?

And it wouldn't be the first or last ironic song to be completley and
utterly misenterpreted by many of the people who 'love it for what it
means'.

"Born in the USA" is probably the type specimen. And anti war, anti
jingoism song that many believe is a pro war anthem.

--- Derek

[geoff]

"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message

news:knvqba$174$1...@dont-email.me...

> geoff wrote:
>> "Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message
>> news:knp6i0$col$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> Absolutely. But SHA is not one of those songs, because It Will Never
>>> Actually Die.
>>
>> ... more is the pity. I loath it.
>>
>> Not only for the boring repetitive phrasing, but the vile sentiments in
>> the
>> lyric. Rednecks might differ ....
>>
>> geoff
>>
>>
>
> It's actually criticizing those "vile sentiments".
>
> "In Birmingham we love the Governor ( Boo boo boo ).
> We all did what we could do.
> Now Watergate does not bother me.
> Does your conscience bother you?"

Oh I'll let them off then - I did wonder, but as you say, many audiences
take it very literally.

Still that roundy-roundy-roundy phrasing is annoying though.

geoff

[Rudolf Ziegaus]

Am Tue, 28 May 2013 08:52:15 +1200 schrieb Derek Tearne:

> Isn't that the point of the song though? Don't assume that, just
> because there are confederate flags flying, and we're proud of our
> history, that we are proud of *all* of our history. And you northerners
> shining that beam at us have a few motes in your own eyes.
>
> Essentially, who are you to judge us?
>
> And it wouldn't be the first or last ironic song to be completley and
> utterly misenterpreted by many of the people who 'love it for what it
> means'.
>
> "Born in the USA" is probably the type specimen. And anti war, anti
> jingoism song that many believe is a pro war anthem.
>
> --- Derek

Well, but I think it's common belief (wisdom?) that the song was meant as a
contra-position to "Southern Man" by Neil Young. I think there's not much
to misunderstand..

"Well I heard mister Young sing about her
Well, I heard ole Neil put her down
Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
A Southern man don't need him around anyhow"

Rudi

[Les Cargill]

Rudolf Ziegaus wrote:
> Am Tue, 28 May 2013 08:52:15 +1200 schrieb Derek Tearne:
>
>> Isn't that the point of the song though? Don't assume that, just
>> because there are confederate flags flying, and we're proud of our
>> history, that we are proud of *all* of our history. And you northerners
>> shining that beam at us have a few motes in your own eyes.
>>
>> Essentially, who are you to judge us?
>>
>> And it wouldn't be the first or last ironic song to be completley and
>> utterly misenterpreted by many of the people who 'love it for what it
>> means'.
>>
>> "Born in the USA" is probably the type specimen. And anti war, anti
>> jingoism song that many believe is a pro war anthem.
>>
>> --- Derek
>
> Well, but I think it's common belief (wisdom?) that the song was meant as a
> contra-position to "Southern Man" by Neil Young. I think there's not much
> to misunderstand..
>

But it's also tongue in cheek. The person singing may not
be *that* southern man. It also may represent a sort "well,
<expletive deleted> you then." It also may represent some
ambiguity on the writer's part.

If we give the writer the benefit of the doubt, it's more
fun.

> "Well I heard mister Young sing about her
> Well, I heard ole Neil put her down
> Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
> A Southern man don't need him around anyhow"
>
> Rudi
>

--
Les Cargill

[RichL]

"Les Cargill" <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote in message

news:ko144v$206$1...@dont-email.me...

> Rudolf Ziegaus wrote:
>> Am Tue, 28 May 2013 08:52:15 +1200 schrieb Derek Tearne:
>>
>>> Isn't that the point of the song though? Don't assume that, just
>>> because there are confederate flags flying, and we're proud of our
>>> history, that we are proud of *all* of our history. And you northerners
>>> shining that beam at us have a few motes in your own eyes.
>>>
>>> Essentially, who are you to judge us?
>>>
>>> And it wouldn't be the first or last ironic song to be completley and
>>> utterly misenterpreted by many of the people who 'love it for what it
>>> means'.
>>>
>>> "Born in the USA" is probably the type specimen. And anti war, anti
>>> jingoism song that many believe is a pro war anthem.
>>>
>>> --- Derek
>>
>> Well, but I think it's common belief (wisdom?) that the song was meant as
>> a
>> contra-position to "Southern Man" by Neil Young. I think there's not much
>> to misunderstand..
>>
>
> But it's also tongue in cheek. The person singing may not
> be *that* southern man. It also may represent a sort "well,
> <expletive deleted> you then." It also may represent some
> ambiguity on the writer's part.
>
> If we give the writer the benefit of the doubt, it's more
> fun.

I always saw the big picture as "yeah, we may have problems, but you stay
the f**k out of it."

[Steve Freides]

Les Cargill wrote:

> It's an ironic song.

If they can do irony, they can do Mixolydian mode.

-S-

[Oci-One Kanubi]

On Friday, May 24, 2013 8:48:06 AM UTC-4, Brian Running wrote:
> > Given a choice of argreeing with Skynyrd and agreeing with Tom freekin' > > Dowd, I'm going to pick the genius who only got into the record business > > because his original career path in nuclear physics was denied to him > > because he'd done so much top secret stuff saving the free world as part > > of the manhattan project before graduating - stuff that he couldn't talk > > about, and that his tutors didn't know, and disagreed completely with > > the curriculum he would have been greaded against, that he had to change > > lines of work. The guy who invented 8 track recording, linear faders[1] > > and all manner of other stuff. This is a perfect example of the kind of tortured rationalization I'm talking about. You just want - need - Sweet Home Alabama to be in the key of D so bad that you will ignore the composers of the song, and instead go with the producer, because - well, because of a bunch of stuff that has nothing at all to do with music. Okey dokey.

Unfair, Brian! Derek is not agreeing with Tom Dowd because of all those unrelated things. He is merely citing those unrelated things as examples proving Dowd's genius. He is establishing Dowd's cred as a guy who usually knows what he is talking about.

Now I got no dawg in this fight, and though I don't much like Skynyrd's material I respect them as great players, but I wonder if their formal music education might be somewhat less than Dowd's? I play a lot of music with a lot of good 'ol boys here in North Carolina who can play as well or better than I, but who cannot understand when I try to express musical concepts in the language of scale and interval.

There are lots of rock tunes built on a chord structure of 1 or 1m, b7, 4 resolving to the 1 ("Last Dance with Mary Jane", anyone?), which, just like "Sweet Home", might be said to actually belong in the key of the 4. It seems to be a matter of "transcriber's choice". The Mixolydian option is cogent and way more musically sophisticated, but the blues (and its baby, Rock'n'Roll) don't always fit neatly into classical European music theory.

I say: why argue about it when both arguments have a lot of substance on their sides?

-Richard, His Bassic Travesty

[Les Cargill]

I am pretty sure that we've established in this very thread that formal
music training will likely be inadequate to describe SHA in the first
place. I took that as something like a joke to start with...

A *VERY GOOD* joke, I might add - nice and subtle.

My last pianer teacher taught me modes and chord stacking when I was
like 12 or 13, and I never encountered those in school. I have
also seen serious musical professionals for whom modes and such are
completely alien.

> I
> play a lot of music with a lot of good 'ol boys here in North
> Carolina who can play as well or better than I, but who cannot
> understand when I try to express musical concepts in the language of
> scale and interval.
>

When I encounter that, I suspect they may have
used their time better than I have...

> There are lots of rock tunes built on a chord structure of 1 or 1m,
> b7, 4 resolving to the 1 ("Last Dance with Mary Jane", anyone?),
> which, just like "Sweet Home", might be said to actually belong in
> the key of the 4.

Yes, the key being the number of sharps or flats for non-accidental
notes in the song.

> It seems to be a matter of "transcriber's choice".

Yep.

> The Mixolydian option is cogent and way more musically sophisticated,
> but the blues (and its baby, Rock'n'Roll) don't always fit neatly
> into classical European music theory.
>

Oh fooey then. Er, on European music theory. DON'T OPPRESS US WITH
YOUR DIATONIC HEGEMONY, MAAAAN :)

> I say: why argue about it when both arguments have a lot of substance
> on their sides?
>
> -Richard, His Bassic Travesty
>
>

--
Les Cargill

[Derek Tearne]

Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, the key being the number of sharps or flats for non-accidental
> notes in the song.

That narrows it down to two possible 'keys' and 8 western style modes in
each.

> > The Mixolydian option is cogent and way more musically sophisticated,
> > but the blues (and its baby, Rock'n'Roll) don't always fit neatly
> > into classical European music theory.
>
> Oh fooey then. Er, on European music theory. DON'T OPPRESS US WITH
> YOUR DIATONIC HEGEMONY, MAAAAN :)

I do find it kind of ironic that blues, which is the basis of western
popular music, which is for a lot of people the music they are most
familiar with, doesn't always fall neatly into western musical theory
without invoking modes - which as we've established are in the 'huh,
what are you talking about?' region of music theory for most folks.

> > I say: why argue about it when both arguments have a lot of substance
> > on their sides?

In this case it is worthwhile as a greater understanding of the way
music is formed can be gained. As long as it doesn't end up with a
didactic requirement for one party to be 'right'.

And I think we've probably all come across situations where someone has
called out a key and we've started out playing the wrong chords. It
might be because they called out the wrong key, or it might be because
they called out the right key but our method of working out the key was
in the wrong - or - as in this case - both choices are pretty much
evenly matched/likely.

So, after having this discussion, next time someone calls out SHA and
wants to play it in a key other than G or D we will know that it is
important to establish the starting chord/note.

[Les Cargill]

Derek Tearne wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, the key being the number of sharps or flats for non-accidental
>> notes in the song.
>
> That narrows it down to two possible 'keys' and 8 western style modes in
> each.
>

Yep. But it's still one canonical key. One of the two possible "keys"
is also one of those modes.

>>> The Mixolydian option is cogent and way more musically sophisticated,
>>> but the blues (and its baby, Rock'n'Roll) don't always fit neatly
>>> into classical European music theory.
>>
>> Oh fooey then. Er, on European music theory. DON'T OPPRESS US WITH
>> YOUR DIATONIC HEGEMONY, MAAAAN :)
>
> I do find it kind of ironic that blues, which is the basis of western
> popular music, which is for a lot of people the music they are most
> familiar with, doesn't always fall neatly into western musical theory
> without invoking modes - which as we've established are in the 'huh,
> what are you talking about?' region of music theory for most folks.
>

I think it's even funnier that the basis for Afro-Cuban was
from "primitive people." There is probably some guy on a bandstand
right now playing Afro-Cuban that would defy notation at all.

Probably on timbales.

Remember, people thought Johnny B. Goode was going to lead
to some sort of apocolypse.

>>> I say: why argue about it when both arguments have a lot of substance
>>> on their sides?
>
> In this case it is worthwhile as a greater understanding of the way
> music is formed can be gained. As long as it doesn't end up with a
> didactic requirement for one party to be 'right'.
>

Indeed.

> And I think we've probably all come across situations where someone has
> called out a key and we've started out playing the wrong chords. It
> might be because they called out the wrong key, or it might be because
> they called out the right key but our method of working out the key was
> in the wrong - or - as in this case - both choices are pretty much
> evenly matched/likely.
>

"So what does that mean the first chord is?" is a good
question to have ready.

> So, after having this discussion, next time someone calls out SHA and
> wants to play it in a key other than G or D we will know that it is
> important to establish the starting chord/note.
>

+1

> --- Derek
>
>

--
Les Cargill

[Brian Running]

> Unfair, Brian! Derek is not agreeing with Tom Dowd because of all those unrelated things. He is merely citing those unrelated things as examples proving Dowd's genius. He is establishing Dowd's cred as a guy who usually knows what he is talking about.

Not unfair! He's choosing sides between the composers of the song - repeat, the composers, themselves - and the producer, and the reason for preferring the producer over the guys that wrote the song - repeat, the very guys that wrote the song - is because the producer has credentials in areas that have nothing to do with music.

> Now I got no dawg in this fight, and though I don't much like Skynyrd's material I respect them as great players, but I wonder if their formal music education might be somewhat less than Dowd's?

Ask yourself now - why do you want to believe that Tom Dowd had more musical knowledge than the guys in the band? You have nothing other than speculation to go on, you don't know for sure, but you really, really want to say the song's in D, so are biased towards the guy that confirms your belief. Fair!

> There are lots of rock tunes built on a chord structure of 1 or 1m, b7, 4 resolving to the 1 ("Last Dance with Mary Jane", anyone?), which, just like "Sweet Home", might be said to actually belong in the key of the 4.

Not "just like Sweet Home" - the chords in Mary Jane are Am, G, D and Em. That's not the same as D, C and G, all major chords. Mary Jane is in the key of Em.

[Derek Tearne]

Brian Running <runnin...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Unfair, Brian! Derek is not agreeing with Tom Dowd because
> > of all those unrelated things. He is merely citing those unrelated
> > things as examples proving Dowd's genius. He is establishing
> > Dowd's cred as a guy who usually knows what he is talking about.
>
> Not unfair! He's choosing sides between the composers of the song
> - repeat, the composers, themselves - and the producer, and the
> reason for preferring the producer over the guys that wrote the song
> - repeat, the very guys that wrote the song - is because the producer
> has credentials in areas that have nothing to do with music.

Waves!

Hi, I'm here.

Let me make this clear. My basis for siding with Tom Dowd is due to a
rather excellent documentary called Tom Dowd & the Language of Music.

It covers the usual credentials that one wouldn't be surprised that a
music producer had (although many do not). Such as a formal musical
education and ability to play multiple instruments. He came from a
musical family (his mother was and opera singer and father a
concertmaster). He grew up around music and formally trained musicians.
He studied music at the City College of New York. He was even at some
point a conductor of a classical orchestra.

The jaw dropping reveal in the documentary was that he worked on the
Manhattan Project as an undergraduate - and that if he hadn't done so
much top secret stuff that he could not reasonably graduate from
university on the grounds that his tutors would not have high enough
security clearance to grade his work, and he was additionally unable to
publish any of the work he would be likely to do in the same area on the
grounds of national security, he would not have turned to music at all.

And if that hadn't happened we'd be far the poorer - and if he'd
continued in nuclear research he may have come up with some even more
terrible weapons than the atomic bomb. So we would have been doubly
worse off.

By the end of the documentary it becomes pretty clear that Tom Dowd was
a truly remarkable man with many talents, music being just one of them.

Now, if you just hear the statement that Lynyrd Skynyrd disagreed with
their producer over the key signature, you might assume, incorrectly,
that the producer was someone like Phil Spector or Malcolm McLaren, who
really didn't have much of a musical education. In which case on
balance one would expect the composers to have a better idea than the
producer about the key of a song.

However, this was a disagreement between self taught musicians and an
absolutely incredible amazing genius, one of the most important and
innovative people involved in popular music recording, who has a formal
musical education, a mind for sums (which is what a lot of music theory
boils down to), and who knows how to make atomic bombs.

Absolutely, I'd side with that guy in a discussion like this. Even if
the composition in question was my own.

[klaw]

On Friday, May 24, 2013 6:46:31 PM UTC-4, Les Cargill wrote:
> Derek Tearne wrote:

>
> > Brian Running <runnin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> This is a perfect example of the kind of tortured rationalization I'm
>
> >> talking about. You just want - need - Sweet Home Alabama to be
>
> >> in the key of D so bad that you will ignore the composers of the song,
>
> >> and instead go with the producer, because - well, because of a
>
> >> bunch of stuff that has nothing at all to do with music. Okey dokey.
>
> >
>

> > I don't really care what 'key' it is in, personally.
>
> >
>
> > The question was, essentially, "Who would you side with, a bunch of
>
> > self-taught rock musicians or the record producer, who has so many high
>
> > level qualifications in subjects ranging from electronics to music, who
>
> > is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest music producers of all
>
> > time, who had an actual formal music education at City College of New
>
> > York and would have generally been the cleverest person in the room at
>
> > any given time..."
>
> >
>
>
>
> <raises hand> I'd actually take Ed King's word over Tom Dowd's because
>
> Ed hadda play solos on it. Ed King is not exactly chopped liver. None of
>
> those guys are/were.
>
>
>
> Being smart is like four wheel drive. You still get stuck
>
> with four wheel drive you just get stuck deeper.
>
>
>
> > Yup, unless the composer was, say, Beethoven, I'd side with the genius
>
> > music producer with, among other things, formal qualifications in music.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Don't assume those guys were/are dumb. Mebbe get a blister onyer...
>
> little finger...
>
>
>
> > --- Derek
>
> >
>
> >

a while back I played with some southern rock/country guys who'd ask 'what chord is this 'un in?'

[Brian Running]

> Waves!
>
> Hi, I'm here.

Hi, Derek! [waves back]

A few things:

No one has actually quoted Tom Dowd, or given any kind of citation to him saying that SHA is in the key of D. So, I Googled around, looking for that quote, or even a reference to that discussion. Couldn't find any.

I also pulled out "Second Helping" and took a gander at the credits - Tom Dowd was not involved with that album. Al Kooper was the producer, engineer, and re-mix engineer. Seems unlikely that anyone would ask him his opinion on the key of a song with which he was not involved. Taking that lead, I found this:

http://www.al.com/sweet-home-alabama/index.ssf/2010/10/producer_al_kooper_on_sweet_ho.html

I'll bet you a buck-three-eighty that when Boomy brought up the Tom Dowd reference, he was actually thinking of this, and it's Al Kooper we're talking about, not Tom Dowd.

Does this mean we now have to elevate Al Kooper to near-god status, in order to keep insisting that SHA is in D? ;-)

[RichL]

"Brian Running" <runnin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:01fcb1f7-0779-4432...@googlegroups.com...

No, we just have to compare Kooper's musical training and background with
King's, Rossington's, etc.

I'll tell ya what though. Regardless of what key it's in, King playing the
riffs in "G" sure leads to some sour clashes between his single notes and
the chords being played. Check out this version at 1:36, for example. As
the chord shifts from G to D, he bends an A note up to a B. On the "1" of
the D chord.

Another one (not quite so offensive): playing a G note at 2:20, again on the
"1" of the D chord. There's a few more like that in there.

Now in all instances, that chord is D (or, perhaps more accurately, Dsus2).
Not D6 or Dsus4. Now you can say he's intentionally creating tension by
hitting that G note prematurely, but to me it's almost as if he's not on the
same page as everyone else, like he's actually attempting to (unnaturally)
force the issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cyokaj3BJU

[klaw]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:30:19 PM UTC-4, Pt wrote:
> What key is it in?
>
> Chords are D, C, G.
>
>
>
> Pt

same key as magic carpet ride

[Pt]

Can't you see.

Pt

[RichL]

"JimmyM" <m...@nnn.com> wrote in message
news:fl3fq8t5otnoac3mp...@4ax.com...

> Actually, "Can't You See" is in D pretty clearly. All the solos are
> in D, and the D-C9-G-D chord progression starts and ends on D. "Magic
> Carpet Ride," however is clearly G because of the G-Bb-C "Close your
> eyes, girl" part.

Bb is one of the notes in the G major scale? ;-)

[Pt]

> Bb is one of the notes in the G major scale? ;-)-

Minor 3rd?

Pt

[Brian Running]

> Actually, "Can't You See" is in D pretty clearly. All the solos are
> in D, and the D-C9-G-D chord progression starts and ends on D. "Magic
> Carpet Ride," however is clearly G because of the G-Bb-C "Close your
> eyes, girl" part.

I agree. Can't You See revolves around D, and resolves to D. The C there is truly a flat 7 in the key. It serves the same function in the song as the F in Sweet Home Alabama. Try playing Can't You See with the C and G an octave up from where you usually play them.

Magic Carpet Ride is in G for the same reasons. It revolves around G and resolves to G. When Jimmy says the "close your eyes" part proves it, he doesn't mean that the B flat is in the key of G, he means that the part begins on G and resolves to G.

[Les Cargill]

Brian Running wrote:
>> Actually, "Can't You See" is in D pretty clearly. All the solos
>> are in D, and the D-C9-G-D chord progression starts and ends on D.
>> "Magic Carpet Ride," however is clearly G because of the G-Bb-C
>> "Close your eyes, girl" part.
>
> I agree. Can't You See revolves around D, and resolves to D. The C
> there is truly a flat 7 in the key. It serves the same function in
> the song as the F in Sweet Home Alabama. Try playing Can't You See
> with the C and G an octave up from where you usually play them.
>
> Magic Carpet Ride is in G for the same reasons. It revolves around G
> and resolves to G.

Right. The 'verse' is pretty much only in G major.

> When Jimmy says the "close your eyes" part proves
> it, he doesn't mean that the B flat is in the key of G, he means that
> the part begins on G and resolves to G.
>

Right. The Bbmaj is a passing element. It even tolerates a dom7,
although the dom7 is cheezy.

--
Les Cargill

[RichL]

What key is "Gloria" in?
The chords are E, D, A (repeated incessantly).
Explain your reasoning, and contrast with SHA (if necessary).

[Derek Tearne]

RichL <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What key is "Gloria" in?

Excellent question.

There are around 30 songs called 'Gloria', several could fit into EDA -
we could be arguing this one for months without ever realised we're
talking about different songs.

[RichL]

"Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message

news:1l3w07v.5clwde8zvfbwN%de...@url.co.nz...

> RichL <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> What key is "Gloria" in?
>
> Excellent question.
>
> There are around 30 songs called 'Gloria', several could fit into EDA -
> we could be arguing this one for months without ever realised we're
> talking about different songs.

Sorry, should have been more specific.

The one originally recorded by Them (with Van Morrison):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkaMVLHxzWE

[RichL]

"JimmyM" <m...@nnn.com> wrote in message

news:jgnnq89jf4apnuq7h...@4ax.com...

> Clearly E is the tonal center of the entire song and D and A are
> passing chords.

Right, and I think the vast majority of musicians would agree that it's in
E.

But in my mind at least, the reasoning that results in Gloria being in E
leads me to think that SHA is in D. D strikes me as being the tonal center.
Obviously others disagree (based on this thread, we seem to be split about
50:50). So for those who think SHA is in G, what factors make the reasoning
different for Gloria? The durations of each of the chords?