Re: alt.gothic.bookworms- 50 books
Dark Phoenix
do-it-yerselfers), is Victorian People and Ideas by Richard D. Altick. For a
small book (300 pages) it certainly took me long enough to read. The first
half is economics and politics, which bore me to tears. The second half
dwells on education, working situations, religion and the arts, which I
found very interesting.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix
dark_p...@netw.com
"Vampires are make believe. Just like Elves, Gremlins, and Eskimoes."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners/
TenshiKurai9
it before saying anything.
2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel
Xavier. Not every poem is about being queer, but every poem is done by
a queer. One of the things about spoken word poetry is it's unique
performance style, so I wish I could hear these people.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Christmas Eve: Samuel Adams
Cranberry Limbric, Bud Light, Chardonnay, Later Night: Irish Coffee,
Corona, Yesterday: Fuzzy Navel, Grape Crush, Gin & Tonic. Fuzzy Navel
works for me.)
Matthew King
: (Christmas Eve: Samuel Adams Cranberry Limbric, Bud Light, Chardonnay,
: Gin & Tonic. Fuzzy Navel works for me.)
By God, I think you've got something: 50 boozes!
Except that's way too easy. So I say: 50 beers!
Here's what I've got so far:
1. Keith's
2. Carlsberg
#50 will, naturally, have to be 50.
Matthew
--
Let's take it slow, make it last,
don't want to lose it, love will die.
Love will go.
I've done it all before.
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. <snip>
> 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel
> Xavier.
3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
Recently-turned writer Russell Hokes quits his job as a painter of
center lines on interstates to write a 50,000 word book on the
dissapearance of the small town from America. When his car breaks down
while doing research he happens upon Wigfield, a small town of illegal
squatters whose main business is strip clubs. Wigfield is threatened
by State Representative Bill Farber's plan to tear the Bulkwaller Dam
down. While in Wigfield, Hokes decides to fill his book with
interviews from the town residents. The denizens seem to be a bit dull
(except when it comes to being scam artists), but their interviews
certainly aren't. Reading their interviews will show the effects of
the town's plutonium, mercury, arsenic, and lead on their minds.
Though granted, most of them probably would still have a thing for
murder even without the poisoning. Good for the laughs it was intended
for.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Hey look, the lesbian couple next
door are being more supportive than my Dad over me calling the Health
Department.)
Dark Phoenix
"TenshiKurai9" <Tenshi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137702107....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
> Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
>
> door are being more supportive than my Dad over me calling the Health
> Department.)
>
Stephen Colbert as in the Comedy Central guy?
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix, imagines your dad is embarrassed as hell
dark_p...@netw.com
"Vampires are make believe. Just like Elves, Gremlins, and Eskimoes."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners/
http://www.geocities.com/dark_phoenix54/50booksin2006
TenshiKurai9
> TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. <snip>
> > 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel
> > Xavier.
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
> Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
4. Hackers by Steven Levy
The history of hacking as told in three generations of hacking. MIT's
The Model Railroad Club, West Coast hardware hacking, and software,
mainly games, hacking. Fact that was the most useful for gaining a
general view on today for me was the mentioning of TMRC's sci-fi
interest's and the West Coast's Tolkien interests.
5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
Real-life tale of tracking a cracker that started with noticing a $.75
deficit for Berkley's computer time. Favourite part was how Stoll
tells us about everday life going-on around and being interrupted by
the hunt.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Time to start some more Jargon
File Bibliography mentioned books.)
TenshiKurai9
> "TenshiKurai9" <Tenshi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1137702107....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
> > Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> Stephen Colbert as in the Comedy Central guy?
Yes.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (::kicks ball to a.g.:: ~~~o)
Dark Phoenix
I've been reading too many magazines and how to do things books, but just
bits and pieces of them, to get any actual book reading and book finishing
here. Gardening, making soap & other bath sort of things, cookbooks,
backyard astronomy. Lot lot gone through, but I'm too lazy to write about
every one that I read a part of, just to make up one book credit.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix
TenshiKurai9
> TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > > 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. <snip>
> > > 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel
> > > Xavier.
> > 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
> > Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
Doubled-up and did this week's and next week's reading.
6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
I never thought about the potential office politics that might come
into play when designing a computer until I started this.
7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
Had fun occasionally commenting on entries when IMing Coffin. Example,
home page, definition 1, "The term 'home page' is perhaps a bit
misleading because home directories and physical homes in RL are
private, but home pages are designed to be very public." Response,
continual open house.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Has started Gödel Escher Bach.
This is not going to be a one week book and not just because of
length.)
Fascinet and the Falx of Sarmizegetusa
TenshiKurai9 wrote:
>
> -TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Has started Gödel Escher Bach.
> This is not going to be a one week book and not just because of
> length.)
>
I'll race you.
-F
Tiny Human Ferret
Good luck with that.
I tried reading that once and it precipitated a 20-year-long
schizophrenic break and furthermore subscribed me to no less than fifty
different sweepstakes entries from Publisher's Clearinghouse.
I strongly advise against reading this book because it will make your
number of brain cells double and you will also develop 100 times the
synaptic connectivity. Shortly thereafter you will encrypt all of your
memories and logic paths with an unbreakable code and throw the
decryption keys into the nearest surrealistic puddle dripping off of a
clock face. You will sign your bank cheques "Salvador Dali" and
embroider your own scalp with a realistic copy "Guernica". People will
want to pet the cow and you will let them but only for a dollar.
--
nam primi in omnibus proeliis oculi vincuntur.
The Scythian Boogaloo of Fascinet
Would a bottle or two of Delerium Tremens I have in by refrigerator
help at all you think?
It would relax my brain, making it impossible to connect synapses in
any orderly way.
-F
Tiny Human Ferret
Considering that all of the prescriptions given me by my well-informed
doctors have eventually been linked to insanity, incontinence,
convulsions, memory loss, permanent paralysis and enrichment of
pharmaceutical companies and their stockholders, and also haven't been
rigorously demonstrated to do a whole lot of positive good, I have been
forced to take matters into my own hands and drink lots of beer. Now I
am no longer skinny and can't drive for about 12 hours a day, however I
have my memory, an ability to concentrate, and interestingly enough seem
to be on the mend all around. None of that last "on the mend" part was
happening before, so I must concur doctor that clearly non-binge
drinking may be rightly thought to be good for one's mental health.
Or, to paraphrase and summarize, "better a free bottle in front of me
than a pre-frontal lobotomy", especially if the beer is of decent
quality and served by wuvvwy waitwesses.
Dark Phoenix
collection of short stories- some crime, some science fiction, some
westerns- all connected by a sense of weirdness. I never expected weirdness
from a western- I never expected to read a western, but I was enjoying the
other stories so what the hell- but Gorman makes it work, flawlessly. It's
not all sci-fi weird, a lot of the stories are just human weird, which may
be the weirdest kind of weird. The writing is edgy, some of it bringing film
noir to mind. I picked this book up on a whim- it had 'dead' in the title-
but just may look for more of this author's work.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix
dark_p...@netw.com
"Vampires are make believe. Just like Elves, Gremlins, and Eskimoes."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners/
http://www.geocities.com/dark_phoenix54/50booksin2006
TenshiKurai9
Shall we determine a start date/time (expressed in ICT)?
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (An opportunity came to watch A
Clockwork Orange in the theater with discussion so I watched it a
second time without reading the international edition yet.)
Fascinet and the Falx of Sarmizegetusa
TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> Fascinet and the Falx of Sarmizegetusa wrote:
> > TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > -TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Has started Gödel Escher Bach.
> > > This is not going to be a one week book and not just because of
> > > length.)
> > >
> >
> > I'll race you.
>
> Shall we determine a start date/time (expressed in ICT)?
>
I've got a gratuitous NSK book coming in in the next day or two, so how
about a week plus some?
1200 Feb 24th?
How long have you been Vietnamese?
-F
TenshiKurai9
> TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > > TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > > > 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. <snip>
> > > > 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel
> > > > Xavier.
> > > 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
> > > Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> > 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> > 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
List B, comic books
1. Lenore: Noogies by Roman Dirge
2. Lenore: Wedgies! by Roman Dirge
So innocent about death. . .even after attending her own funeral.
3. Little Scrowlie: Dawn of the Living Fashion Victim written by Todd
Meister and drawn by Jennifer Feinberg
Doesn't take the supernatural to get people to act like Zombies and
shop. I like Feinberg's tale better than consumerism and psychology
though.
4. Outlook:Grim The Dead Nasties by Black Olive
I definitely want to see what happens to Wren's forced career as
psychic goes.
5. The Cat with a Really Big Head and One Other Story that isn't as
Good by Roman Dirge
A part of me wants to predict what aberration his body will take in his
seven other lives.
6. Bunnywith 2 by Alex Pardee
Simple gag with many twists executed finely.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (What I get for not reading even
comic strips regularly, ODing on the above.)
TenshiKurai9
> TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > Fascinet and the Falx of Sarmizegetusa wrote:
> > > TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > -TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Has started Gödel Escher Bach.
> > > > This is not going to be a one week book and not just because of
> > > > length.)
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll race you.
> >
> > Shall we determine a start date/time (expressed in ICT)?
> >
>
> I've got a gratuitous NSK book coming in in the next day or two, so how
> about a week plus some?
>
> 1200 Feb 24th?
Deal.
> How long have you been Vietnamese?
Never and don't even know what about my remarks reminds you of them.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Phở is good though.)
Dark Phoenix
different process (hot process rat her than cold) from the one the local
soapers use, but sounds a lot more fool proof. I *think* I understand enough
to not screw it up, and if I do, to fix it. The beauty of this method is
that almost everything is fixable, rather than throwing out errors. Dyes
stay colored rather than muddy, fragrances stay, well, fragrant. But there
is math involved. And chemistry. Makes brain huurrrttt.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix
dark_p...@netw.com
"Vampires are make believe. Just like Elves, Gremlins, and Eskimoes."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners/
http://www.geocities.com/dark_phoenix54/50booksin2006
TenshiKurai9
> > > > > 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. <snip>
> > > > > 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel
> > > > > Xavier.
> > > > 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
> > > > Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> > > 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> > > 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> > 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> > 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
>
> List B, comic books
>
> 1. Lenore: Noogies by Roman Dirge
> 2. Lenore: Wedgies! by Roman Dirge
> Meister and drawn by Jennifer Feinberg
> Good by Roman Dirge
7. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Beatiful Beasts by Serena Valentino and
FSc
I have a feeling that if I did my research, I'd be able to point to
inspirations in more tales than I currently can. In the meanwhile, I
do like such things as the queer twist in Beauty and the Beast.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (finds the comic books pretty)
Dark Phoenix
but if so, it's very mature writing for a first. In some ways the story is
very grim- joblessness, poverty, alcoholism, drugs, violence- but in the
end, things look better. Mama wants better things for her kids than she has
had, and it happens, or at least it seems that it will happen for them all.
There is even some hope that, with no one dependant on her anymore, Mama
will manage to break out of her rut, too.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix
dark_p...@netw.com
"Vampires are make believe. Just like Elves, Gremlins, and Eskimoes."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners/
http://www.geocities.com/dark_phoenix54/50booksin2006
Dark Phoenix
novel's action pivots on a Renaissance book, the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili,
and the unraveling of it's secrets. (I was surprised to find that the book
was real, assuming it to be a Necronomicron sort of thing. I checked several
sources, not trusting that some weren't internet hoaxes.) At the same time,
it's a coming of age story and a murder mystery.
It's a remarkably mature work for a first novel, although there is some
failure to develop characters fully. I didn't notice any holes in the plot
(other than that a victim of a massive burn would have been sent to a Burn
Unit, not left at the campus hospital), the motives hold well, and the
characters go on to lives that are consistent with what we know about them.
Thankfully, there was no secret society involved. I hope to see the authors
write more books. They have a good start.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix
dark_p...@netw.com
"Vampires are make believe. Just like Elves, Gremlins, and Eskimoes."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners/
http://www.geocities.com/dark_phoenix54/50booksin2006
TenshiKurai9
> Fascinet and the Falx of Sarmizegetusa wrote:
> > TenshiKurai9 wrote:
> > > Shall we determine a start date/time (expressed in ICT)?
> > How long have you been Vietnamese?
>
> Never and don't even know what about my remarks reminds you of them.
>
> -TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Phở is good though.)
Oops. Got my TLAs mixed up. Severely mixed-up. (As in accidently
thought it was International Co-ordinated Time.) The time still stands
as is though.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Does like Far East culture beyond
Japan.)
naomi walker
channel, and it was hard to get back to Peer, since it was like reading a
fairy tale right after watching the evening news. Wasn't as bad as watching
High Tension right after The Devil's Rejects by Lions Gate Studio's, but
that book and Lovecract definately Clash with each other. Purchased the
entire Lovecraft series carried by Barnes and Nobles, read Ulthar's Cats,
and Lenore by Edgar Allen Poe. Lost the book title that was voted on for
this month, sorry, if someone has it, please let me know. As for comics,
reread the entire V1 of Wolverine published by Marvel, Bloodhound published
by DC Comics, and the 4 short Sabretooth Series publisehd by Marvel. Havent
decided if I should start reading Wars of the Roses, try to finish V2 of
Varney the Vampyre or the Feast of Blood, or start reading Vikrahm [sp?] and
the Vampyre. Did finish reading an unusual little short story titled The
Fat Vampyre, in which the "heroine" is a hefty young lady who meets a man
whom at first seems to good to be true. Unfortunately in this case, his
"evil designs" are nothing more than to suck the "fat" right out of her ^.^
Needless to say, our poor heroine soon learns the "error" of her ways. I
found this at http://www.memoware.com under the horror section, not sure if
it's still posted there or not. As it stands, I am at a loss as to what to
read next. I have Flatland and Flatterland [flatland can be found at
http://www.gutenberg.net ] [am not spoiling bk2 before i read bk1 :) ] On
my reading list, missing the voted on new book is Varney v2, Wars of the
Roses, Count Magnus, Flatland and Flatterland, anything from Shakespear, Poe
or Lovecraft. Suggestions anyone?! All this on top of making 7 handmade
cards, a lapquilt, and putting together a care package with Tale of Two
Cities for a friend with cancer, who just left the hospital.
ningi
** KaminoNeko puts on a cthulhu costume**
<ningi> *stands there with a blank look on face, [if i say cthulhu 3x's
fast, will i get a trillionaire boyfriend?] *
<KaminoNeko> No, you'll likely get a sprained tongue. <_<
<ningi> hehhaaaha
<ningi> oh well, guess calling cthulhu is out of the question, back to
wishing for a rich sugardaddy *hangs up the phone*
<KaminoNeko> Trying to order one?
<ningi> what? a cthulhu or a sugardaddy?
<KaminoNeko> Sugardaddy
Dark Phoenix
"naomi walker" <ni...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:o4MKf.18109$UD1....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
Lost the book title that was voted on for
> this month, sorry, if someone has it, please let me know.
"Ananzi Boys" by Neil Gaiman.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix
dark_p...@netw.com
"Vampires are make believe. Just like Elves, Gremlins, and Eskimoes."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners/
http://www.geocities.com/dark_phoenix54/50booksin2006
naomi walker
news:Mfidnb0LmJT...@povn.com...
I checked that out from block buster, and never did get to watch/read it.
Will see if I can find it ^.^ Thank you Dark Phoenix!
ningi-naomi
lunacia
_Anansi Boys_ is not a film, just a book... At least so far.
lunacia
--
[alt.gothic.bookworms] - homepage:
http://home.no.net/lunacia/agb/
The 50 Books a Year Challenge:
http://50books.lunacia.net/index.html
naomi walker
news:ut8vv1lvtjsshlp0u...@4ax.com...
> Blinded by darkness, "naomi walker" <ni...@bellsouth.net> scribbled:
>
> >"Dark Phoenix" <dark_p...@netw.com> wrote in message
> >news:Mfidnb0LmJT...@povn.com...
> >>
> >> "naomi walker" <ni...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> news:o4MKf.18109$UD1....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> >> Lost the book title that was voted on for
> >> > this month, sorry, if someone has it, please let me know.
> >>
> >> "Ananzi Boys" by Neil Gaiman.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Laurie, Dark Phoenix
> >> dark_p...@netw.com
> >> "Vampires are make believe. Just like Elves, Gremlins, and Eskimoes."
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners/
> >> http://www.geocities.com/dark_phoenix54/50booksin2006
> >>
> >
> >I checked that out from block buster, and never did get to watch/read it.
> >Will see if I can find it ^.^ Thank you Dark Phoenix!
>
> _Anansi Boys_ is not a film, just a book... At least so far.
>
>
>
> lunacia
>
it at my local block buster, and didn't get to see if it was an interactive
dvd book or an animation of the book. ^.^ Either way, I didn't get to use
the dvd before it was due back to blockbuster :(
*hugs* ningi
TenshiKurai9
> > > > > > 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. <snip>
> > > > > > 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel
> > > > > > Xavier.
> > > > > 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
> > > > > Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> > > > 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> > > > 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> > > 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> > > 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
Hafner and John Markoff
I found reading Part Two: Pengo and Project Equalizer interesting to
read after The Cuckoo's Egg. Just because it's the different
perspective of what was going-on on the other side of the story.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Time to return it and face the
fines.)
Dark Phoenix
Having not enjoyed Count Zero and Neuromancer (although I did recognize them
as well written and innovative), I'm not even sure why I picked up Pattern
Recognition, but it's totally unlike those two books. While it does use
cyberspace for part of it's action, it's more of an adventure/spy story set
in meat space. The protagonist- a quirky, tough woman- is easy to like, a
large change from Neuro or CZ, where there was absolutely no one I'd ever
want to meet. I enjoyed the mix of cyber and physical world, and the
characters were well done, the puzzle the hero solves fascinating. I found
it very compelling, but I wonder if the fan's of Gibson's earlier work find
it a sell out.
Now reading: The Voyage Out by Virginia Woolf.
Tiny Human Ferret
I thoroughly enjoyed it. As noted on the cover blurb, it might indeed be
one of the very first mainstream novels dealing realistically with the
21st Century and the "world of young people". The way he dealt with WTC
Day was masterful IMHO.
kest
> Finished reading late last night: Pattern Recognition by William
> Gibson.
>
*snip*
I found it very compelling,
> but I wonder if the fan's of Gibson's earlier work find it a sell out.
Personally, as a lover of Gibson's short work (and Count Zero, didn't like
the Idoru trilogy as much), I think Pattern Recognition is one of his best.
k
Dark Phoenix
"kest" <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> wrote in message
news:Xns97769128BBDB...@kest.ninehells.com...
Was there anything in particular about Idoru you didn't like? Now that I've
really liked Pattern Recognition, I was thinking of picking those up...
Tiny Human Ferret
> "kest" <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns97769128BBDB...@kest.ninehells.com...
>
>>"Dark Phoenix" <dark_p...@netw.com> scrawled:
>>
>>
>>>Finished reading late last night: Pattern Recognition by William
>>>Gibson.
>>>
>>
>>*snip*
>>
>>I found it very compelling,
>>
>>>but I wonder if the fan's of Gibson's earlier work find it a sell out.
>>
>>Personally, as a lover of Gibson's short work (and Count Zero, didn't like
>>the Idoru trilogy as much), I think Pattern Recognition is one of his
>>best.
>>
>>k
>
>
> Was there anything in particular about Idoru you didn't like? Now that I've
> really liked Pattern Recognition, I was thinking of picking those up...
IMHO _Idoru_ isn't really a trilogy, but they're set in a "ficton" (a
sort of fictional future parallel to other fictional futures) which
really hangs together along the same lines, more of a triptych, really.
The _Neuromancer_ cycle was definitely a trilogy, the _Idoru_ cycle
shared a lot of "world features" with that first trilogy but that was
mostly along the lines of things predictable and perhaps to be expected
given the state of the technical arts at the time of the writing. But
_Idoru_ is more scattershot and the related works each have a life of
their own. Wikipedia has a very good article on Gibson and his works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Gibson_%28novelist%29
"...I felt that I was trying to describe an unthinkable present and I
actually feel that science fiction's best use today is the exploration
of contemporary reality rather than any attempt to predict where we are
going... The best thing you can do with science today is use it to
explore the present. Earth is the alien planet now." --William Ford
Gibson, from an interview on CNNfn, August 26, 1997.
I couldn't agree more.
Dark Phoenix
"Tiny Human Ferret" <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> wrote in message
news:440259AB...@earthops.net...
> IMHO _Idoru_ isn't really a trilogy, but they're set in a "ficton" (a sort
> of fictional future parallel to other fictional futures) which really
> hangs together along the same lines, more of a triptych, really.
>
> The _Neuromancer_ cycle was definitely a trilogy, the _Idoru_ cycle shared
> a lot of "world features" with that first trilogy but that was mostly
> along the lines of things predictable and perhaps to be expected given the
> state of the technical arts at the time of the writing. But _Idoru_ is
> more scattershot and the related works each have a life of their own.
> Wikipedia has a very good article on Gibson and his works.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Gibson_%28novelist%29
>
> "...I felt that I was trying to describe an unthinkable present and I
> actually feel that science fiction's best use today is the exploration of
> contemporary reality rather than any attempt to predict where we are
> going... The best thing you can do with science today is use it to explore
> the present. Earth is the alien planet now." --William Ford Gibson, from
> an interview on CNNfn, August 26, 1997.
>
> I couldn't agree more.
Thanks. I'll give it a try if it crosses my path.
oonh
> TenshiKurai9 wrote:
>> TenshiKurai9 wrote:
>> > 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman. <snip>
>> > 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel
>> > Xavier.
>> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul
>> Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
>
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
>
> The Model Railroad Club, West Coast hardware hacking, and software,
> mainly games, hacking. Fact that was the most useful for gaining a
> general view on today for me was the mentioning of TMRC's sci-fi
> interest's and the West Coast's Tolkien interests.
>
Currently SIPB.
oonh
kest
>
> Was there anything in particular about Idoru you didn't like? Now that
> I've really liked Pattern Recognition, I was thinking of picking those
> up...
>
Um, the writing? It's hard to define exactly, but they seemed more vague,
less tethered to the concrete. They just didn't grip me the way his other
stuff does.
k
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
> 8. Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier by Katie
> Hafner and John Markoff
The Devouring Fungus: Tales from the Computer Age by Karla Jennings
The fact that the stories have examples that aren't just the ignorant
meets computers I find reassuring. Or the fact that they're not
limited to computer geek meets real world.
-TenshiKurai9 (#altgothic on EFNet) (Current plans, start week with one
book and then go back to GEB.)
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman
> 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel Xavier
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
> 8. Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier by Katie Hafner and John Markoff
10. True Names. . .and Other Dangers by Vernor Vinge
Bookworm, Run!-I have to wonder how large Norman's memory is in order
to have all the information of the U.S. government within him.
True Names-Replace Other Plane with today's online world and Warlocks
with denizens of said world and Mr. Slippery's observations of who the
users are and that some prefer their Other Plane/online identities
definitely hold true.
The Peddler's Apprentice (with Joan D. Vinge)-The World Governor was
right that Wim had leadership potential, just not as the Governor.
The Ungoverned-Something intriguing about how not all of those farmers
have signed-up for protection with any service.
Long Shot-Now why Ilse be programmed in such a way that she was at risk
for forgetting her mission, I don't know.
-TenshiKurai9
Joseph Brenner
kest <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> writes:
Yes, I was just thinking that if I were going to recommend one
Gibson book, it would probably be that collection of his early
short stories "Burning Chrome". (The official theme of the
upcoming Burning Man is "The Future", and I've been wondering if
someone is going to think to do a "Gernsback Continuum" camp.)
In general, Gibson is a little problematic, because he's truly a
great writer, but not really a very heavy-weight thinker. A lot
of his ideas collapse under really close examination: they only
seem weighty at first glance because of a flair for language and
a delicate touch that doesn't explain too thoroughly, doesn't
encourage you to dwell on the weak spots.
And yet Gibson stumbles through the maze somehow, and actually
manages to get places in this particular "literature of ideas"...
Taking "Neuromancer" as an example. This is a book that
genuinely inspired a bunch of techies to take the idea of
"virtual reality" seriously... if any of the threads of virtual
reality ever go anywhere, you're going to find Gibson's novel
near the beginning of that thread.
And as far as literature goes, it's the book that put "cyberpunk"
on the map, the book that Bruce Sterling managed to hitch a ride
on to publicize his own work (Sterling's stuff is much weightier
in my opinion, but it's so emotionally cold, so anti-romantic,
that there was a period there where it looked like he was never
going to catch on).
But. Neuromancer is full of things that just flat out dumb.
My favorite example: what is "flatlining" about? Note: hackers
go flatline when they're talking to Neuromancer. So the idea is
that their soul has gone somewhere else? Huh?
Another: the rastafarian space men is a cute idea... but these
guys are conned by Neuromancer just because he plays dub music? [1]
(It's easy to get darkie natives to think you're a god, right?
That's the way it always goes in those jungle explorer stories.)
One of Gibson's maxims is that science fiction isn't really
about the future, really it's about romanticized versions of
the present. Now, that's a thesis that's not without merit,
but I suggest that it's also a thesis that's death for a
science fiction writer that takes it seriously -- it
paralyzes the imagination, it says at the outset that you
shouldn't even *try* to work up a plausible future...
And I think this has been a big problem with a lot of Gibson's
recent novels.
All of them have some good things about them, but they rarely
achieve any sense of excitement, they don't give you the feeling
that Gibson has all that much to say about anything.
I thought "Pattern Recognition" was pretty impressive in a number
of ways... it's a story set in the world of on-line discussion
groups, and it gets it all right. He touches all of the bases
(the games with anonymity, the first meeting face-to-face of
people you know very well already), and does it without seeming
dorky, or self-consciously hip (I've been living in that world
for decades now, and I still don't think I'd want to try and
write about it in fiction...).
But there's all sorts of things about the book that seem oddly
weak. The female main character isn't particularly interesting
(she's not made of cardboard, but I think she might've been
bought at Ikea). Her super power is okay by me -- she has a
weird sensitivity to the power of corporate logos, so she can (a)
predict when one will be successful (b) has trouble living in a
world surrounded by such logos, she's prone to a kind of anxiety
attack induced by them.
But Gibson hasn't really done a good job of imagining what life
would be like for a person like this: not only would she be
tormented by *other peoples* logos, she would be living in a
world where she's haunted by logos that she herself has worked
on, that she had a hand in putting over. A cab going down the
street would be sporting images of power that *she* selected.
She can't possibly *enjoy* living in a world like this, but she
seems to have no sense of guilt or responsiblity about it. She
doesn't for example, dream about cutting and running to live in a
little village in Brazil. She doesn't talk about the time she
tried to take a break from in all in Baja and ended up getting
assaulted by Coke and Nike logos anyway, because they're
*everywhere* now.
Do you guys see what I'm getting at? I don't think I'm
quibbling.
The Game is to take a weird premise and push at just as far as
you can, to try and work out the implications, to get the conceit
to take on weight... but Gibson doesn't really believe in The
Game. He plays at it, but doesn't play it.
[1] A point I've borrowed from Delany.
Dark Phoenix
"Joseph Brenner" <do...@kzsu.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:m3irqk8v...@crack.obsidianrook.com...
> <snip>
> But. Neuromancer is full of things that just flat out dumb. <snip>
> Another: the rastafarian space men is a cute idea... but these
> guys are conned by Neuromancer just because he plays dub music? [1]
> (It's easy to get darkie natives to think you're a god, right?
> That's the way it always goes in those jungle explorer stories.)
I agree; that was damn near offensive. Surely he could have given some more
depth to why Neuromancer was a god to them?
<giganta snip>
> But there's all sorts of things about the book that seem oddly
> weak. The female main character isn't particularly interesting
> (she's not made of cardboard, but I think she might've been
> bought at Ikea). Her super power is okay by me -- she has a
> weird sensitivity to the power of corporate logos, so she can (a)
> predict when one will be successful (b) has trouble living in a
> world surrounded by such logos, she's prone to a kind of anxiety
> attack induced by them.
>
> But Gibson hasn't really done a good job of imagining what life
> would be like for a person like this: not only would she be
> tormented by *other peoples* logos, she would be living in a
> world where she's haunted by logos that she herself has worked
> on, that she had a hand in putting over. A cab going down the
> street would be sporting images of power that *she* selected.
>
> She can't possibly *enjoy* living in a world like this, but she
> seems to have no sense of guilt or responsiblity about it. She
> doesn't for example, dream about cutting and running to live in a
> little village in Brazil. She doesn't talk about the time she
> tried to take a break from in all in Baja and ended up getting
> assaulted by Coke and Nike logos anyway, because they're
> *everywhere* now.
>
> Do you guys see what I'm getting at? I don't think I'm
> quibbling.
Agree again. I liked Cayce and thought she had a lot of potential that
wasn't realized. But I hadn't thought about the fact that she has a hand in
giving logos their power. You're right, she *should* feel guilt! And it
would have been interesting to see at what point a logo would gain the power
to set off her phobia.
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman
> 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel Xavier
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
> 8. Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier by Katie Hafner and John Markoff
> 9. The Devouring Fungus: Tales from the Computer Age by Karla Jennings
> 10. True Names. . .and Other Dangers by Vernor Vinge
11. Gödel, Escher, and Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter
On the one hand, I read it, on the other hand, I only partially
understood it. Since there were a few sentences where re-reading them
made understanding more difficult, I can figure-out it's not solely a
matter of pacing. To be read again in a year.
Easiest parts for me to comprehend were the dialogues. Hardest parts
were at times when he wanted us to figure-out something, but I couldn't
see how. Also easy for me to comprehend was discussion about the
artwork.
I'm considering finding the Bach pieces mentioned and having them on
hand before the re-read.
12. The Eye in the Pyramid by Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
Anyone else notice that the books mentioned in the memos do exist? I
want a copy of How to Torture Your Mind by Ralph L. Woods now because
of those memos.
-TenshiKurai9
TenshiKurai9
> List B, comic books
> 1. Lenore: Noogies by Roman Dirge
> 2. Lenore: Wedgies! by Roman Dirge
> 3. Little Scrowlie: Dawn of the Living Fashion Victim written by Todd Meister and drawn by Jennifer Feinberg
> 4. Outlook:Grim The Dead Nasties by Black Olive
> 5. The Cat with a Really Big Head and One Other Story that isn't as Good by Roman Dirge
> 6. Bunnywith 2 by Alex Pardee
> 7. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Beatiful Beasts by Serena Valentino and FSc
8. Lenore: Cooties by Roman Dirge
You can't keep a good girl dead, or at least not in Hell. This is so
even when Hell attempts to send it's armies forth to get her.
9. Scary Godmother: Ghoul's Out for Summer by Jill Thompson
It's actually my first introduction to these characters. So their
vacations from their normal routinues means I have to read other pieces
in the series to know what their everyday lives are written/drawn as.
10. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Once Upon a Time by Serena Valentino &
FSc
I know it's Volume one and I'm fine that it starts-off with the lesbian
vampire frames former lover story right away instead of where did this
doll come from? Reminds me how storytellers would start their tale in
mid-epic.
11. Death: The High Cost of Living by Neil Gaiman
Wondering what kind of re-writes to the universe it takes to create a
family that doesn't exist and have people remember it.
-TenshiKurai9
Jennie Kermode
lists here only every ten books; this is also due to a shortage of time
(the reason I've been neglacting this place lately), which is also the
reason why I've only just made it to ten. Time, that is, when I've been
well enough to concentrate sufficiently; recent drugs have not been
kind.
Anyway, my list so far:-
1. 'Strange and Secret People: Fairies and Victorian Consciousness' by
Carole G Silver, and 'The Light Princess, and other Stories' by George
MacDonald - counted as one item because I read approximately half of
each before 2006 began.
2. 'Ghostly Tales: Volume 5' by Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu.
3. 'The Chrysalids' by John Wyndham. A re-read.
4. 'Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft' by Ronald
Hutton.
5. 'Saturday' by Ian McEwan.
6. 'The Crystal World' by JG Ballard. A re-read.
7. 'Perfume' by Patrick Suskind.
8. 'Madness and Civilisation' by Michel Foucault.
9. 'Asylum' by Patrick McGrath.
10. 'Outlaws and Highwaymen: The Cult of the Robber in England from the
Middle Ages to the Nineteenth Century' by Gillian Spraggs.
I shall try to make time to discuss any of these which people
are interested in.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
Dark Phoenix
1910 (or so) Vienna. I thought this book would be great- loosely based on
one of Freud's real patients, an inspector using the early beginnings of
modern criminalistics, an amateur detective who is using intuition- it
seemed to have a lot going for it. But it fails it's promise. The characters
are lifeless and poorly drawn (I couldn't even care about the murder victim-
'eh, one less drama queen'). There are more loose ends than a season finale.
Clues that seem to be very important lead nowhere. The ending is very
unsatisfying. (not as in "I didn't like it" but as in "it didn't explain
what happened to the murderer")
Where the writer shines is in her descriptions. The food (do these people
ever stop eating?), the clothes, the parks and buildings, the superstitions
are all given in loving detail. After finishing the book, I looked the
author up and found that she has written a couple of books of fashion
history. I suspect these would be very well written as they are about
objects; sadly, her grasp of plot and character is nearly nil.
Rob
> 3. 'The Chrysalids' by John Wyndham. A re-read.
I've never read this but I recently discovered I have a tape of the
1981 BBC radio production of it (now safely MP3ed as part of my
ongoing campaign to digitise my entire life). I couldn't really
remember the story but I did recall being quite disturbed by it when
it was broadcast.
Rob
kest
>
> I shall try to make time to discuss any of these which people
> are interested in.
I would like at least to know which ones you liked and which you didn't, if
that would be possible?
k
TenshiKurai9
> List B, comic books
> 1. Lenore: Noogies by Roman Dirge
> 2. Lenore: Wedgies! by Roman Dirge
> 3. Little Scrowlie: Dawn of the Living Fashion Victim written by Todd Meister and drawn by Jennifer Feinberg
> 4. Outlook:Grim The Dead Nasties by Black Olive
> 5. The Cat with a Really Big Head and One Other Story that isn't as Good by Roman Dirge
> 6. Bunnywith 2 by Alex Pardee
> 7. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Beatiful Beasts by Serena Valentino and FSc
> 8. Lenore: Cooties by Roman Dirge
12. Gloomcookie Volume Two by Serena Valentino & John Gebbia
The part of the story with the two lovers doomed to never be able to be
together lifetime-after-lifetime reminds me. . .I should be looking-up
which two major Hindu deities are in a similiar position.
-TenshiKurai9
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman
> 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel Xavier
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
> 8. Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier by Katie Hafner and John Markoff
> 9. The Devouring Fungus: Tales from the Computer Age by Karla Jennings
> 10. True Names. . .and Other Dangers by Vernor Vinge
> 11. Gödel, Escher, and Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter
13. The Computer Contradictionary, Second Edition by Stan Kelly-Bootle
Reading GEB first and learning how to read "~X" as not X helped make
sure some humour was a bit more understandable than it would have been
otherwise.
-TenshiKurai9
Jennie Kermode
> I would like at least to know which ones you liked and which you didn't, if
> that would be possible?
Okay. Sorry, I had meant to write more about them here as I
read each one, but I've been under a lot more pressure of time recently
than I'd expected, between work and medical stuff. I have written small
amounts about each book on my website at
htp://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie/50book.html, but even tjose are
really just passing comments. Anyway:-
Recommended:-
'Strange and Secret People: Fairies and Victorian Consciousness' by
Carole G Silver.
'The Chrysalids' by John Wynham.
'The Crystal World' by JG Ballard.
'Perfume' by Patrick Süskind.
'Madness and Civilisation' by Michel Foucault.
'Asylum' by Patrick McGrath.
These are all excellent books which I would happily read again
(and which, in the case of the first two novels there, I _was_ reading
again).
Interesting but leaving something to be desired:-
'The Light Princess, and other Stories' by George MacDonald.
'Ghostly Tales: Volume 5' by Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu.
'Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft' by Ronald
Hutton.
'Outlaws and Highwaymen: The Cult of the Robber in England from the
Middle Ages to the Nineteenth Century' by Gillian Spraggs.
Which leaves:-
'Saturday' by Ian McEwan.
I used to think happily that one day Ian McEwan would die and then I
could own everything he'd ever written. Now he can live for all I care.
Dark Phoenix
"Jennie Kermode" <"Jennie Kermode"@triffid.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrne2kpkm.6bg...@laocoon.triffid.demon.co.uk...
Recommended:-
> 'Perfume' by Patrick Süskind.
I found this to be a very enthralling and very different novel. The premise
that one can control what others think of you by how you smell is unique, I
believe (other than the usual idea that one can attract men by smelling like
a deer's butt, of course) and the writing downright hypnotic.
Jennie Kermode
> "Jennie Kermode" <"Jennie Kermode"@triffid.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:slrne2kpkm.6bg...@laocoon.triffid.demon.co.uk...
> Recommended:-
>> 'Perfume' by Patrick Süskind.
> I found this to be a very enthralling and very different novel. The premise
> that one can control what others think of you by how you smell is unique, I
> believe (other than the usual idea that one can attract men by smelling like
> a deer's butt, of course) and the writing downright hypnotic.
It's not new to science, but it's the first time I've seen
such an intensive treatment of it in literature. It works, I think,
because it's been built so elegantly into the larger story, which has
been wonderfully well researched. Süskind's passing remarks quickly draw
the reader into a world where odours of all kinds have a much more
powerful conscious influence. I also really like this book because it's
one of few successful attempts I've seen at writing a gothic novel after
the end of the gothic period proper, and I'm amazed by how well the
author carries it off. He seems to have succeeded in persuading a modern
readership to make that leap of faith which so many stories struggle
with. I look forward to reading more of his work.
Dark Phoenix
March 27.
I really enjoyed this book. I've been reading a lot of historical fiction
lately, and so much of it is (realistically) depressing. If you're born to
low station in the past, you were stuck there. End of story. Good things did
not happen to these people. So the novels generally went along the lines of
"Person is born to be a maid or something equally low status. Shitty things
happen to them. Then really shitty things happen to them. Then spectacularly
shitty things happen to them. The end." (Yes, I've been greatly influenced
by Slammerkin and The Quincunx)
While this girl's life generally sucks- poverty, back-breakingly hard work,
blinded parent, a couple of nasty people where she works/lives- she never
starves or has no place to go. There are some light spots in her life- her
suitor, the beauty of the paintings that Vermeer does. It's balanced, like
most people's lives are.
I loved the descriptions of how the paints were made, how Vermeer worked,
how he looked at color. Life in Delft is given in sparkling detail. A
luminous little book.
Dark Phoenix
Blue Flower is a based on fact tale set in Goethe's Germany. A young
philosopher, destined to by poverty to be an inspector of salt mines, falls
in love with a 12 year old girl, calling her his heart's heart and his
Philosophy. He feels her youthful innocence represents all that is good. I
found the book a pleasant diversion, but maybe not the masterpiece that A.S.
Byatt declared it.
The Bookshop, about a widow who decides to open a bookstore in a small town,
I found witty and all to familiar. Even though this small town setting is in
coastal East Anglia, and the time is 1959, I swear I know all these people.
All small towns must have the same cast. She runs afoul of the town's rich
woman and arbiter of all things cultural, who wants the building for her own
purposes. The building is haunted by a poltergeist. When she stocks Lolita
when it's first published, and crowds gather, the other merchants become
angry. All these things together make success in a small town impossible.
This book has one of my all time favorite lines in it. The widow has
employed an 11 year old girl as her assistant. The rich woman sics the
government on her for employing a minor. They investigate, and find that,
while the employment has not hurt the girl's school performance in any way
"her health and safety and welfare are at risk in your premises which are
haunted in an objectionable manner.. I am advised that under the provisions
of the Act the supernatural would be classed with bacon-slicers and other
machinery through which young persons must not be exposed to the risk of
injury" I just love that a bureaucracy has a rating for the supernatural.
Dark Phoenix
of the Dying" by Maggie Callanan and Patricia Kelley.
This is an interesting book written by two long time hospice nurses. They
tell about the things that many dying people go through- not just the
standard denial/bargaining/acceptance thing, but things like seeing and
talking to people already dead, seeing some place beyond our earth, and
needing closure and sometimes permission to go by their loved ones. I think
it's a very useful book for those dealing with the dying- it gives, for
instance, hints on how to get the dying person to talk about what they see,
and how to draw them out so what they need for closure and peace can be
learned and provided. But it's a little too pretty, perhaps. All the people
in the book die peacefully and painlessly. If this is the only death and
dying book one were to read, they would be woefully unprepared for what can
be the reality of caring for a dying loved one. Not all die wreathed in
beatific smiles; some go puking blood, in agony and shitting themselves. Not
all doctors will provide adequate pain control. Not all have a large, loving
family to pitch in and provide the hands to care for the dying, rather than
leaving one or two people to do it all. But despite this shortcoming, I
think it's a good book to have.
Dark Phoenix
to post before, and now am sitting here with my foot up- a ladder fell with
me, and I think my foot is broken. Dr's appt this PM.
"lost boy lost girl" by Peter Straub.
Straub is a writer I usually have mixed feelings about. I like this work,
but it always leaves me a little unsatisfied. This book had that effect on
me. He takes the threads of the supernatural and two different serial
killers and tries to braid them together. The serial killers go together
well, but the supernatural seems a bit forced. It works, but not terribly
well. Character is never Straub's strong point, and this is apparent again.
One of the main characters (the father of the lost boy) is pure caricature.
The two teens were well done, though, and the sometime narrator, the lost
boy's uncle, has promise. The shifting POV is a little annoying.
My feeling was that the book was a first draft, and some rewriting would
have improved it immensely.
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman
> 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel Xavier
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
> 8. Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier by Katie Hafner and John Markoff
> 9. The Devouring Fungus: Tales from the Computer Age by Karla Jennings
> 10. True Names. . .and Other Dangers by Vernor Vinge
> 11. Gödel, Escher, and Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter
> 12. The Eye in the Pyramid by Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
> 13. The Computer Contradictionary, Second Edition by Stan Kelly-Bootle
14. Angels & Demons Special Illustrated Edition by Dan Brown
The book is a two-week loan so I had to read it now.
My fingers are twitching to at least find Wikipedia entries to
everything referenced within the story.
Right now I'm wondering how long a person can be kept going by
adrenaline. It does feel like I have to go through some suspension of
disbelief in order to believe that Robert Langdon can go through so
much in such a short time. For example. . .
*Spoiler Warning*
decoding clues to find the Path of Illumination to find where four
cardinals are going to executed along which he's almost crushed by a
sarcophagus under which he passes-out, almost drowns after an
underwater fight, falls-out of a helicopter that is destroyed by
anti-matter with a windshield tarp into a river.
Oh did I mention that that's only some of what happened? And that
happened within a few hours? And the entire book takes place in barely
over a day?
At least the story kept me tense and in suspense during all the action.
-TenshiKurai9
Dark Phoenix
"TenshiKurai9" <Tenshi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1144277684.2...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
14. Angels & Demons Special Illustrated Edition by Dan Brown
The book is a two-week loan so I had to read it now.
My fingers are twitching to at least find Wikipedia entries to
everything referenced within the story.
Right now I'm wondering how long a person can be kept going by
adrenaline. It does feel like I have to go through some suspension of
disbelief in order to believe that Robert Langdon can go through so
much in such a short time. For example. . .
*Spoiler Warning*
decoding clues to find the Path of Illumination to find where four
cardinals are going to executed along which he's almost crushed by a
sarcophagus under which he passes-out, almost drowns after an
underwater fight, falls-out of a helicopter that is destroyed by
anti-matter with a windshield tarp into a river.
Oh did I mention that that's only some of what happened? And that
happened within a few hours? And the entire book takes place in barely
over a day?
At least the story kept me tense and in suspense during all the action.
****************
Oh, it's a ridiculous story, but it's such *fun*! I loved it, and DaVinci
Code. A great romp.
Dark Phoenix
Moon by Armistead Maupin.
Written in diary style, this is the tale of Cady Roth, a dwarf who was the
operator inside an 'elf' in a wildly popular movie that sounds suspiciously
like "ET". Since her success in that role, success has eluded her because
society will not take a little person, no matter how talented, seriously.
Love is also a problem for her. Finally she is reduced to working kids
parties.
At last, things start to look up for her when she finds a sensitive lover,
and also plots a perfect way to show the world her singing talent *and* get
back at the producer of the movie who had turned his back on her.
The characters are so full and well drawn in the book I felt I knew them.
Even the one who starts out seeming like a caricature (her roommate) ends up
a rounded, real, personality. All together an excellent book.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix- oh, yeah, the goddamn thing is broken.
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman
> 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel Xavier
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
> 8. Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier by Katie Hafner and John Markoff
> 9. The Devouring Fungus: Tales from the Computer Age by Karla Jennings
> 10. True Names. . .and Other Dangers by Vernor Vinge
> 11. Gödel, Escher, and Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter
> 12. The Eye in the Pyramid by Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
> 13. The Computer Contradictionary, Second Edition by Stan Kelly-Bootle
> 14. Angels & Demons Special Illustrated Edition by Dan Brown
15. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
Only read the first book so far. I'll wait until I'm done with the
entire story arc before commenting.
16. Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson
I'm wondering how real or not neurolinguistic hacking can be because of
this book.
-TenshiKurai9
Dark Phoenix
I picked this up ages ago because it was written by Bradley, and I had loved
The Mists of Avalon. This book is totally unlike that one.
Catch Trap is about two things- the circus, and trapeze work in particular,
and gay love back in the 40s and 50s, when it was seriously NOT okay to be
gay. Apparently, Bradley had quite an interest in the history of the flying
trapeze and she proves this over almost 700 pages.
This book seemed to go on forever, and a few times I thought about putting
it down. But I had come to care about the characters and wanted to see where
Bradley took them. The book covers 9 years, from the main characters early
teens to his maturity, both physically and emotionally. He loves Mario, a
member of a great 'flying' family, and Mario loves him, but their love seems
doomed in that time and place. Even though Mario is the older of the two, he
is one who needs constant babying and emotional propping up by the younger
Tommy, being both emotionally and physically abusive to time. To make
matters worse, some of Mario's large family are seriously homophobic.
The characters are great and the setting perfectly realized but the book
really could have been a bit shorter.
--
Laurie, Dark Phoenix
Dark Phoenix
I have loved Bolen's other books and was rather disappointed by this one.
Her other books were a type of Jungian psychology and archetype; this one is
her personal experiences, both physical and spiritual, on a pilgrimage to
European (mostly British Isles) spiritual centers with a couple of other
women. I ended up putting the book down halfway through, and picking it back
up after I read Catch Trap, because I just couldn't get into it. It was
pretty fluffy, although not without value. She uses her own discoveries and
old myths to illuminate the stages we can get stuck in at mid-life. Not her
best book, but useful.
TenshiKurai9
> List B, comic books
> 1. Lenore: Noogies by Roman Dirge
> 2. Lenore: Wedgies! by Roman Dirge
> 3. Little Scrowlie: Dawn of the Living Fashion Victim written by Todd Meister and drawn by Jennifer Feinberg
> 4. Outlook:Grim The Dead Nasties by Black Olive
> 5. The Cat with a Really Big Head and One Other Story that isn't as Good by Roman Dirge
> 6. Bunnywith 2 by Alex Pardee
> 7. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Beatiful Beasts by Serena Valentino and FSc
> 8. Lenore: Cooties by Roman Dirge
> 9. Scary Godmother: Ghoul's Out for Summer by Jill Thompson
> 10. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Once Upon a Time by Serena Valentino & FSc
> 11. Death: The High Cost of Living by Neil Gaiman
> 12. Gloomcookie Volume Two by Serena Valentino & John Gebbia
13. The Monsters in My Tummy by Roman Dirge
Boy meets girl. Girl dumps guy. Anthromorphosized pain assainates
boys heart. Pain holds celebrations for anthromorphosized concepts.
Death follows. What else is there to say except buy it?
14. The Crow by J. O'Barr
I get the general theme of self-harm, I just don't know why he's
drawing the Cat in the Hat after an incident.
15. Death: The Time of Your Life by Neil Gaiman
With the Buddhist jockey shorts guy asking about Boris' medical history
and mentioning the need to call an ambulance, I wonder if he even
remembers everyone meeting Death.
16. Wet Moon Book 1: Feeble Wanderings by Ross Campbell
With Fern seeming to know about Penny's younger sister Cleo's existance
without reasonable cause to know, I'm wondering what explanations will
rise in Book 2.
17. The Sandman: Endless Nights by Neil Gaiman
Death: I wonder how May the 23rd, 1751 came to be a place temporarily
out of Death's reach.
Desire: Desire in and of hirself isn't innately bad. Someone like the
main woman character who knows how to use desire to avoid the entire
village being slaughtered.
Dream: So he arrives with Killalla, their relationship isn't clear, and
he feels hurt when she kisses the Light of Oa? Dream doesn't seem to
be to be the kind of being to have the easiest time in expressing his
emotions. (Why does that seem familiar? <whistles> <walks-away>)
Despair: The fictional essay test to re-create a situation in which
people have felt despair was the most different way to express despair
from the other fourteen potraits.
Delirium: Looking on the story in a lens of madness was definitely
needed to even see what the group led by Barnabas saw.
Destruction: Dissappears in an act of destruction of a hill with
evidence of future destruction.
Destiny: His job is his life so it made sense that his story was a
description of his work.
-TenshiKurai9
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman
> 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel Xavier
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
> 8. Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier by Katie Hafner and John Markoff
> 9. The Devouring Fungus: Tales from the Computer Age by Karla Jennings
> 10. True Names. . .and Other Dangers by Vernor Vinge
> 11. Gödel, Escher, and Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter
> 12. The Eye in the Pyramid by Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
> 13. The Computer Contradictionary, Second Edition by Stan Kelly-Bootle
> 14. Angels & Demons Special Illustrated Edition by Dan Brown
> 15. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
17. The Golden Apple by Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
The story of the midget getting to a point where the police can't be
sure who slept with who because of the web of lies reflects how no one
in the story can be sure of having the full truth on the Illuminatus or
the Erisians. At least who lied about what for what reason we can see
while we still don't have the full story of the Illuminatus and
Erisians.
-TenshiKurai9
Dark Phoenix
This slim book is a book of geometry made simple, in a sort of Sophie's
World style, but it's a lot more than that. While the story is about an
inhabitant of a 2 dimensional universe (A Square is what he goes by) who is
shown how a one dimensional and a non-dimensional world would work, and then
shown the 3 dimensional world of solids, it's also a social satire. Written
during the Victorian era, he mocks the class system & government through is
description of 2-D Flatland. The author has been called a misogynist, but I'm
not sure if he really was, or if he was satirizing the view, commonly held
in his day, of women as emotional, brainless idiots. Given that he also
describes military men as stupid and violent, and has the Square hold the
upper classes (the more oblique your angles, the higher your class- circles
are the top caste) in unwonted awe, I'm going to guess that the misogyny was
part of the satire.
The actual purpose of the book seems to be to get people's heads around the
idea of a 4th dimension. I'm not sure he accomplished that, but it was a
good read and not dated by being over a hundred years old.
Dark Phoenix
I loved this book. The world is distopian, but not so badly as Neuromancer's
world. The characters are well done and you can care about them, unlike
those in Neuromancer. Stephenson has a sense of humor, and he took 1992's
trends and extrapolated them into a world that I can see evolving around the
world today. He didn't get everything right- people aren't gathering in
cyberspace while wearing goggles to get benefit of realistic settings (thank
gawd the trend for endless animations on websites died a few years ago), and
no one is using skateboarders for high speed couriers- but the burbclaves
(gated communities) are very real, as is replacement of independent
businesses by franchises.
The novel weaves Sumerian myth, neuro-linguistic programming, cyberpunk,
virtual reality, and a lot of other things together and the action never
stops. Well, it does slow a few times, while conversations explain about
Sumerian myth and how it applies to computer hackers and viruses from outer
space, but he doesn't over do the stop and talk about it routine.
A thank you to Tenshi for bringing this book to my attention. Oh, and the
main character's name is Hiro Protagonist- how Dickensian can you get?
Jennie Kermode
> Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions, by Edwin A. Abbott.
> idea of a 4th dimension. I'm not sure he accomplished that, but it was a
> good read and not dated by being over a hundred years old.
If you liked it, check out Rudy Rucker's 'Spaceland: A Novel of
the Fourth Dimension'. As well as being a damn fine writer, Rucker works
as a researcher in multi-dimensional mathematics, and this book is
reported to be extremely good at getting across complex concepts
through fiction, following on from where Abbot left off.
Dark Phoenix
> On 2006-05-02, Dark Phoenix <dark_p...@netw.com> wrote:
>> Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions, by Edwin A. Abbott.
> If you liked it, check out Rudy Rucker's 'Spaceland: A Novel of
> the Fourth Dimension'. As well as being a damn fine writer, Rucker works
> as a researcher in multi-dimensional mathematics, and this book is
> reported to be extremely good at getting across complex concepts
> through fiction, following on from where Abbot left off.
>
> Jennie
Pooh, our library doesn't have it, just "Freeware". I'll keep an eye out for
it at the used books.
thanks,
TenshiKurai9
> 1. Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman
> 2. Bullets and Butterflies: Queer Spoken Word Poetry Edited By Emanuel Xavier
> 3. Wigfield: The Can-Do Town That Just May Not by Amy Sedaris, Paul Dinello, and Stephen Colbert
> 4. Hackers by Steven Levy
> 5. The Cuckoo's Egg by Clifford Stoll
> 6. Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder
> 7. The Jargon File (version 4.4.7) edited by Eric Raymond
> 8. Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier by Katie Hafner and John Markoff
> 9. The Devouring Fungus: Tales from the Computer Age by Karla Jennings
> 10. True Names. . .and Other Dangers by Vernor Vinge
> 11. Gödel, Escher, and Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter
> 12. The Eye in the Pyramid by Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
> 13. The Computer Contradictionary, Second Edition by Stan Kelly-Bootle
> 14. Angels & Demons Special Illustrated Edition by Dan Brown
> 15. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
18. Leviathan by Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
*Spoiler*
The Illuminatus throughout the previous books were not the real
Illuminatus. Hagbard was the real Illuminatus. The levels of
conspiracy just layer upon each other (nevermind the recognition that
the characters give to just being characters and not real life.)
19. The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown
Despite the problems with plausibility of stamina in Angels and Demons,
I still prefer it to The Da Vinci Code. Just the fact the statues in
the first book exist and can form a real path while the path in this
book relies more so on the fictional characters.
20. The Restaurant at the End of the Universe by Douglas Adams
I'm still making myself wait until I've finished the series before
remarking.
-TenshiKurai9
TenshiKurai9
> List B, comic books
> 1. Lenore: Noogies by Roman Dirge
> 2. Lenore: Wedgies! by Roman Dirge
> 3. Little Scrowlie: Dawn of the Living Fashion Victim written by Todd Meister and drawn by Jennifer Feinberg
> 4. Outlook:Grim The Dead Nasties by Black Olive
> 5. The Cat with a Really Big Head and One Other Story that isn't as Good by Roman Dirge
> 6. Bunnywith 2 by Alex Pardee
> 7. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Beatiful Beasts by Serena Valentino and FSc
> 8. Lenore: Cooties by Roman Dirge
> 9. Scary Godmother: Ghoul's Out for Summer by Jill Thompson
> 10. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Once Upon a Time by Serena Valentino & FSc
> 11. Death: The High Cost of Living by Neil Gaiman
> 12. Gloomcookie Volume Two by Serena Valentino & John Gebbia
> 13. The Monsters in My Tummy by Roman Dirge
18. Oh My Goth! Version 2.0 by Voltaire
In the, attempt to make a Goth image overhaul through time travel plot,
I love how Posche accidently inspires people to do the very things
he's warning them not to.
>From here down, this how I actually spent Mother's Day and the morning
after.
19. GloomCookie Volume Four: The Carnival Wars by Serena Valentino and
Harley Sparx
*Spoiler*
Sebastian has harnessed his powers to the point of killing with a wish
in order to protect others. So now the question isn't whether he can
control his powers, but of whether he can accept them.
20. Little Gloomy: It was a Dark and Stormy Night by Landry Q. Walker
and Eric Jones
For someone who seems to go through zombie attacks, kidnapping by evil
mad scientist ex-boyfriends, and so forth, Little Gloomy seems to be
really able to adjust to life after nasty events fairly well.
21. The Trouble with Igor by Christopher P. Reilly and Gus Fink
100% silent work in which our hunchback main character lets his
swallowing of a penny and throwing himself down a well be the beginning
of a series of events of meeting other interesting characters. Oh, and
please note that that puppet is capable of murder on it's own, but
usually requires some form of provocation.
22. Something at the Window is Scratching: Children's Tales for
Disturbed Children by Roman Dirge
Short rhyming poems of varying lengths without a common theme, except
for chidren's tales for disturbed children, is all I can say without
giving some away.
23. The Book of Deady by Voltaire
You know, for a lawyer who took the baby step to being pure evil, he
spends very little of his time actively pursuing evil instead of just
chasing ladies.
-TenshiKurai9
Dark Phoenix
This is a collection of the author's columns written for Pacific Northwest
magazine. These short articles are arranged by season, giving a year's worth
of her observations and recommendations. She has several on colors; it was
interesting to compare what she wrote with what I have written on them (my
article on blue was better; hers on yellow starts very differently but we
come to the same conclusions). Although written for the much warmer-than-us
Seattle area, I found the book useful and entertaining. She mentions a lot
of interesting sounding plants I must now look up; hopefully some of them
will be hardy enough to grow here for me.
Hatt...@gmail.com
Guide" and "Getting Started with Lego Trains."
Hatter
TenshiKurai9
> List B, comic books
> 1. Lenore: Noogies by Roman Dirge
> 2. Lenore: Wedgies! by Roman Dirge
> 3. Little Scrowlie: Dawn of the Living Fashion Victim written by Todd Meister and drawn by Jennifer Feinberg
> 4. Outlook:Grim The Dead Nasties by Black Olive
> 5. The Cat with a Really Big Head and One Other Story that isn't as Good by Roman Dirge
> 6. Bunnywith 2 by Alex Pardee
> 7. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Beatiful Beasts by Serena Valentino and FSc
> 8. Lenore: Cooties by Roman Dirge
> 9. Scary Godmother: Ghoul's Out for Summer by Jill Thompson
> 10. Nightmares & Fairy Tales: Once Upon a Time by Serena Valentino & FSc
> 11. Death: The High Cost of Living by Neil Gaiman
> 12. Gloomcookie Volume Two by Serena Valentino & John Gebbia
> 13. The Monsters in My Tummy by Roman Dirge
> 14. The Crow by J. O'Barr
> 15. Death: The Time of Your Life by Neil Gaiman
> 16. Wet Moon Book 1: Feeble Wanderings by Ross Campbell
> 17. The Sandman: Endless Nights by Neil Gaiman
> 18. Oh My Goth! Version 2.0 by Voltaire
24. Bear: Demons by Jamie Smart
The flashback to Karl's childhood and the accident involving the
crossbow and his uncle makes me wonder if a part of him relates to
Looshkin. Maybe the reason why he even has a very destructive cat?
25. Emily the Strange: Boring Issue written by Rob Reger, Brian Brooks,
and Jessica Gruner and Illustrated by Buzz Parker
Just the page of the plant growing-down is such a beautiful use of line
and letting it flow.
26. Emily the Strange: Lost Issues written by Rob Reger, Brian Brooks,
Buffy Visick, and Jessica Gruner and Illustrated by Buzz Parker
Having her lost in the video game inspired-world just lets such a
different colour pallette hit the eyes than in the rest of the comic.
-TenshiKurai9
lunacia
>Latest book read: Plant Life, by Valerie Easton, Sasquatch books, 2002.
Which number on your list is this? I miss you numbering your books...
lunacia
--
[alt.gothic.bookworms] - homepage:
http://home.no.net/lunacia/agb/
The 50 Books a Year Challenge:
http://50books.lunacia.net/index.html
Dark Phoenix
"lunacia" <use...@lunacia.net> wrote in message
news:jgam721oeajcs6rjf...@4ax.com...
> Blinded by darkness, "Dark Phoenix" <dark_p...@netw.com> scribbled:
>
>>Latest book read: Plant Life, by Valerie Easton, Sasquatch books, 2002.
>
> Which number on your list is this? I miss you numbering your books...
That was #36. I've finished 3 since then, as I've got a virus. I'd slowed
down quite a bit after finishing the job that had the hour commute.
Dark Phoenix
A very different novel from Tan's usual. Not worthless, as some of the
reviewers have stated, but definitely not up to her usual standards.
I'm glad that Tan stretched her subject area, although I'd be happy reading
her stories of Asian/Asian American mothers & daughters forever, but this
book really should have been edited heavily before being published. It's
just not that good.
Tan's people have always been where her talents shown, but this novel had
almost no one with a developed character. The narrator, a dead woman, fairs
best, but even she remains largely a cipher. The other people, an ensemble
of travelers in Burma, are more caricature than character.
The book revolves around a group of tourists who travel to Burma and how
they are abducted by a group hidden in the hills because the tribe thinks
that a teenaged boy in the group is their 'god' come back to save them from
the Burmese government, who wants them all dead. The government hinders
rather than helps the rescue effort, the tourists believe the tribe who
tells them that they cannot get out due to a fallen bridge (and don't
question it when things like noodles magically appear) and the incident
brings the tribe first great good fortune, which is soon snatched away from
them. You expect that the characters will grow from this experience, or at
least be changed somehow, but this doesn't seem to happen. No epiphanies, no
post traumatic stress disorder. They just go back to their lives.
I have the feeling that Tan felt she 'should' write a novel with a political
message, but wasn't that into it, and didn't really know how to fit in-depth
characters into it. It's a shame she couldn't manage it; it's a shame that
her editor didn't point out the flaws of this book. Did I feel like giving
up reading it halfway? No. Did I feel let down? Yes.
Dark Phoenix
Or, death takes an apprentice.
I love Death in Pratchett's Diskworld novels. While he is supposed to be an
'anthropomorphic personification', he keeps trying to be more than that. He
tries to find out what this thing that humans call pleasure is. He likes to
cook. He loves cats. He adopts a child. He tries to make life nice for the
child, without really knowing how.
Mort, the apprentice, lets emotion get in the way of doing his job, creating
a rift in reality. Much mayhem ensues while he tries to make things right,
which, since it's Diskworld and there is usually a happy ending there, he
does. Things take a twist at the end that I hadn't expected, which is always
to the good. Well, usually.
Loved it, as usual with Pratchett.
Dark Phoenix
I loved Odd Thomas, so I had great hopes for this sequel. Sadly, it was not
nearly as well written.
The main body of the book was just fine, with humor mixed with horror.
Koontz missed a few chances at some creepy things, but I guess we can't have
everything. But the ending was a total cop out. Right as things seem
hopeless, the problems are solved by.. NOTHING. They just go away. Odd does
not even have any memory of how the problems go away. (actually, that may be
good. Any deus ex machina would just piss me off) Not only does the animated
dead person trying to kill Odd not kill him- or, rather, kill him
permanently- but Odd magically gets out of a storm drain in a flash flood
and across several miles of desert.
Bah.
Dark Phoenix
I had great hopes for this novel- it seemed like a distopian near-future
sci-fi with great promise. I was disappointed.
The premise is that the UK government decides that the family unit has
caused the breakdown of society, and proceeds to divvy up the country into 4
sectors and sort out people by their 'humours'- sanguine, phlegmatic, etc,
tearing apart families, and creating barriers to prevent the people of the
different sectors from associating. Our 'hero' is torn from his parents when
he is 8, sent to a different sector than they go to, and 20 years later
becomes a civil servant to enforce the laws of separation. Later he goes on
a bit of a walkabout, going through the other sectors, having adventures and
experiencing different, submerged parts of his personality.
The problems are several. The hero has an even flatter personality than one
would expect from someone who has had many of his character traits
suppressed. He's quite boring, and one really doesn't give a shit what
happens to him after awhile. Little details, like how this divided kingdom
deals with the outside world, are ignored- how could they allow trade with
other countries without being contaminated? What about TV and radio- did
they do away with it? Tantalizing things happen, not to be followed up. In
the end, we don't even know if he's just had a dream or not. In the end, we
do not care.
Dark Phoenix
A collection of short stories set in China and among Chinese-Americans. All
focus on how the communist regime of China and the traditional mores of
Chinese society shape the lives of people. From a couple who hide a
handicapped daughter because her existence would bring shame to them to a
man who pretends to still be a rocket scientist, even though he was bared
from that work for wrong thinking, these people live lives of quiet
desperation, seeing no way out. Anyone who is alarmed by repression (and,
even more, anyone who isn't) should read this book, to see how very bad it
can get when the people join with the government in watching one's every
move. Well written and moving.
TenshiKurai9
> and Jessica Gruner and Illustrated by Buzz Parker
> Buffy Visick, and Jessica Gruner and Illustrated by Buzz Parker
27. Courtney Crumrin and the Night Things Volume One by Ted Naifeh
Basically Courtney Crumrin and her inept parents move in to help her
Uncle Aloysius in his old age. Aloysius happens to have developed
magic skills over the years to the point of being one of the most
powerful men, the neighbourhood suspects, her parents are oblivious,
and she's busy nicking his books.
28. Courtney Crumrin and the Night Things Volume Two by Ted Naifeh
There's an organization of the local witches in the town and to some
extent, they don't trust Aloysius as much as the rest of the town.
-TenshiKurai9
kest
9) Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, John Gray, PhD
Again, if you have to include the PhD, perhaps your work doesn't stand on
its own merits? Regardless, thousands of people apparently love this book.
I knew before picking it up that I was unlikely to be one of them, but I
hoped it would maybe have some interesting insights. I was doomed to
disappointment.
John Gray's problem is not his insights. It is his all or nothing style.
Frequently I felt he was standing *next to* some interesting insight,
peering at it through the window. But it was generally surrounded with so
much bullshit as to be unlikely to be usable. He doesn't provide any
support his points, makes gross generalizations, gives unhelpful advice,
etc.
If anyone is interested in what this book has to say but doesn't want the
pain of actually reading it, let me know. I can (and have) summarized all
of its main points in one page. It's mostly about men needing to do things
on their own and get appreciation, and women needing to talk it out and get
support.
My one true (potential) revelation from this book is, *if* the things he
says are true (which is a big if), then one big cause of sexism suddenly
makes sense to me. If men never ask for advice unless they're utterly
stuck, and see such asking as an admission that they are incapable, then
*of course* they see women who seek help early on in the problem analysis
process (to get other perspectives, or just to receive affirmation for
their feelings) as being weak. They would see them as constantly admitting
failure, whereas this has likely never occured to the women in question.
10) Never Good Enough, Monica Ramirez Basco PhD
Another PhD, but this one was actually relatively decent. It's about
perfectionism and how to deal with it. I don't know how much of a
perfectionist I am myself, but I'm pretty sure my mother's one, and that I
have some issues developed from relating to that growing up. The book
distinguishes between inward focused perfectionists, that have high
standards for themselves, and outward focused perfectionists that have high
standards for everyone around them.
There were some good techniques in the book to help me deal with some of my
issues, I think, including reminding myself that making mistakes is
*normal*, that even the definition of 'mistake' may vary from person to
person, and if someone has an issue with an occasional misstep its their
problem. That it helps if you (and others) clearly define expectations and
see if they're reasonable. Also that its easy to oversimplify things, see
them in black and white, success or failure, when most things are more like
75% bad 25% good. And a reminder that words, when spoken in frustration,
can be more hurtful than intended.
11) The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down: A Hmong Child, Her American
Doctors, and the Collision of Two Cultures, Anne Fadiman
This was a very interesting book about a girl with epilepsy and
crosscultural lack of understanding, compounded by language difficulties.
The Hmong people seem fascinating, but its distressing that medical
sciences's culture is such that it can result in substandard care for
people with different beliefs. If one lacks western faith that science
actually has the answers, if you have a different set of 'answers', then
the system becomes difficult to work with. And if you can't effectively
communicate, then it becomes practically impossible.
12) The Wisdom of Crowds, Jamie Surowiecki
There is more than one kind of nonfiction book. There are books that
explore an issue and provide you with information. There are books that
aim to be entertaining along with the knowledge spreading. And there are
books that try to give you the tools to apply the knowledge to your life.
I have been lately reading several 'pop science' books that try to do all
of these things and end up doing none of them particularly well, despite
their popularity. Malcolm Gladwell's books are one example. This is
another. The 'information' is basically that groups can make better
decisions than individuals under certain circumstances. It sort of wanders
in and out of what those circumstances are, obfuscating the applicable
information with examples meant to be entertaining but tending towards the
mundane, such as stock markets, management, and restaurant picking. All in
all, an interesting examination, but not quite as good as I was hoping for.
k
The Scythian Boogaloo of Fascinet
kest wrote:
>
> 12) The Wisdom of Crowds, Jamie Surowiecki
>
> decisions than individuals under certain circumstances. It sort of wanders
> in and out of what those circumstances are, obfuscating the applicable
> information with examples meant to be entertaining but tending towards the
> mundane, such as stock markets, management, and restaurant picking. All in
> all, an interesting examination, but not quite as good as I was hoping for.
>
Everyone knows that the best way to choose a restaurant is to use a
random restraunt generator.
Or at least, people start to proffer real suggestions after you've used
the random restraunt generator once or twice.
-F
Jennie Kermode
> 9) Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, John Gray, PhD
One of those things one feels compelled to get round to if
only to be able to join in the general debate in a properly informed
manner, eh? I should perhaps read it some day on that basis, but I
suspect I'd only end up being violent or laughing too much to take in
the words as they were intended. Maybe both. Sometimesb I think thatv I
should read more hateworthy books, just for practice, but then I think
about all the other stresses I have to deal with during my working day
and the thought of curling up on the couch in such company is far from
comforting.
The other problem I see with books like this, general
sweeping generalisations aside, is that they tend to be pathetically
culture-specific, often without realising it. Does that apply in this
case?
> of its main points in one page. It's mostly about men needing to do things
> on their own and get appreciation, and women needing to talk it out and get
> support.
Don't most people need both, at one time or another? Popular
psychology seems to be forever telling women that they'll feel better if
they achieve more and men that they'll feel better if they talk to
somebody. Myself, I'm happiest when I'm achieving things, and usually
when I'm doing them by myself (if only because this protects me from
being angry at others' incompetence - genuinely helpful help is,
however, always appreciated). I do try to talk about feelings and stuff,
but largely in a mechanical manner, because I've been told it's a good
idea - I suspect I tend not to do it enough because there aren't many
people I feel I can really talk to and I constantly worry about
protecting other people from a burden of stress which I ought honourably
to carry alone.
> 10) Never Good Enough, Monica Ramirez Basco PhD
> Another PhD, but this one was actually relatively decent. It's about
> perfectionism and how to deal with it. I don't know how much of a
> perfectionist I am myself, but I'm pretty sure my mother's one, and that I
> have some issues developed from relating to that growing up. The book
> distinguishes between inward focused perfectionists, that have high
> standards for themselves, and outward focused perfectionists that have high
> standards for everyone around them.
Curious. I certainly have high standards for myself (the cause
of much anxiety, which in turn infuriates me with its tendency to impede
my efficiency); I _desire_ high standards from others, but I don't
really expect them. Until I know that an individual is capable of doing
things well, I tend to expect incompetence in any given arena. I guess I
do have high standards from others as regards the effort which I believe
it is their duty to put into trying to do better, mind.
> There were some good techniques in the book to help me deal with some of my
> issues, I think, including reminding myself that making mistakes is
> *normal*, that even the definition of 'mistake' may vary from person to
> person, and if someone has an issue with an occasional misstep its their
> problem.
One thing I've found is that whilst I still find it painful to
recall mistakes I made when I was five, and can do so in excruciating
detail, and still vividly remember such mistakes whenever I'm feeling
depressed, most other people forget about mistakes I've made within mere
hours or days. I suspect that I have a similarly short memory when it
comes to most errors made by others. I have tried, consequently, to be
more relaxed about my own mistakes. If I were more relaxed, you see, I
could be more efficient.
Something I've learned (or, at any rate, started paying proper
attention to) more recently is that making mistakes can actually provide
a social advantage. Getting things right all the time (or appearing to
do so) can intimidate people, whereas the occasional error, subsequently
corrected and treated with good humour, is apparently endearing. Once an
error has been made, it's best to try abd make something positive out of
it.
I have a horrible feeling that most people probably had these
things figured out by the time they were three.
Joseph Brenner
"Dark Phoenix" <dark_p...@netw.com> writes:
> A Thousand Years of Good Prayer, by Yiyun Li. Random House, 2005
>
> A collection of short stories set in China and among Chinese-Americans. All
> focus on how the communist regime of China and the traditional mores of
> Chinese society shape the lives of people. From a couple who hide a
> handicapped daughter because her existence would bring shame to them to a
> man who pretends to still be a rocket scientist, even though he was bared
> from that work for wrong thinking, these people live lives of quiet
> desperation, seeing no way out. Anyone who is alarmed by repression (and,
> even more, anyone who isn't) should read this book, to see how very bad it
> can get when the people join with the government in watching one's every
> move. Well written and moving.
Thankfully, that can't happen here.
One of the things I've been reading of late (really, re-reading,
but this is the first time I've read it straight through from
beginning to end) is H.G. Wells' "Outline of History".
You might expect that Wells commentary on the Roman Empire would
remind me of the present day United States, but instead, the
comparisons with the Catholic Church seem even more striking:
p. 655
In despair of other solutions to its intellectual discords it had
resorted to arbitrary authority.
They no longer wanted to see the Kingdom of God established in
the hearts of men -- they had forgotten about that; they wanted
to see the power of the church, which was their own power,
dominating men. They were prepared to bargain even with the
hates and fears and lusts in men's hearts to ensure that power.
They were intolerant of questions or dissent, not because they
were sure of their faith, but because they were not. They wanted
conformity for reasons of policy.
p. 655
It had no serenity of soul. It was hunting everywhere for
heretics as timid old ladies are said to look under beds and in
cupboards for burlgars before retiring for the night.
p. 657
In her treatment of her own people a streak of real cynicism is
visible. She destroyed her prestige by disregarding her own
teaching of righteousness. ... Her crowning folly in the
sixteenth century was the sale of _indulgences_ ...
p.664:
It is impossible for an intelligent modern student of history
not to sympathize with the underlying idea of the papal court,
with the idea of one universal rule of righteousness keeping the
peace of the earth, and not to recognize the many elements of
nobility that entered into the Lateran policy.
...
The first thing that will strike the student is the intermittence
of the efforts of the church to establish the world City of God.
The policy of the church was not whole-heartedly and continuously
set upon that end.
p. 661:
The church in the thirteenth century was extending its legal
power in the world, and losing its grip upon men's consciences.
It was becoming less persuasive and more violent. No intelligent
man can tell of this process, or read of this process of failure
without very mingled feelings. The church has sheltered
and formed a new Europe throughout the long ages of European
darkness and chaos; it had been the matrix in which the new
civilization had been cast.
p.665:
And it is perhaps possible that a more perfect system of
selecting the cardinals, who were the electors and counsellors of
the Pope, might have been devised. The rules and ways by which
men reach power are of very great importance in human affairs.
The psychology of the ruler is a science that has still to be
properly sutdied. We have seen the Roman Republic wrecked, and
here we see the church failing in its world mission very largely
through ineffective electoral methods.
kest
men are from mars:
> The other problem I see with books like this, general
> sweeping generalisations aside, is that they tend to be pathetically
> culture-specific, often without realising it. Does that apply in this
> case?
>
I doubt its even relevant to this culture.
>
> Don't most people need both, at one time or another? Popular
> psychology seems to be forever telling women that they'll feel better
> if they achieve more and men that they'll feel better if they talk to
> somebody. Myself, I'm happiest when I'm achieving things, and usually
> when I'm doing them by myself (if only because this protects me from
> being angry at others' incompetence - genuinely helpful help is,
> however, always appreciated).
Whereas I like doing things by myself so no one else gets annoyed at *my*
incompetence (real or perceived).
I do try to talk about feelings and
> stuff, but largely in a mechanical manner, because I've been told it's
> a good idea - I suspect I tend not to do it enough because there
> aren't many people I feel I can really talk to and I constantly worry
> about protecting other people from a burden of stress which I ought
> honourably to carry alone.
>
Why would talking about your problems cause other people stress? You're
not demanding they *solve* them. Many people, in fact, find it feels
good to be able to provide a listening ear and possibly some helpful
advice.
never good enough:
> Curious. I certainly have high standards for myself (the
> cause
> of much anxiety, which in turn infuriates me with its tendency to
> impede my efficiency);
yes, that was one of the book's points, that sometimes holding yourself
to certain standards sets you up to fail in other ways.
I _desire_ high standards from others, but I
> don't really expect them. Until I know that an individual is capable
> of doing things well, I tend to expect incompetence in any given
> arena. I guess I do have high standards from others as regards the
> effort which I believe it is their duty to put into trying to do
> better, mind.
>
So you have high standards that you want met but don't ever expect to
actually get? Sounds like a recipe for long term mild annoyance and
disappointment.
> Something I've learned (or, at any rate, started paying
> proper
> attention to) more recently is that making mistakes can actually
> provide a social advantage. Getting things right all the time (or
> appearing to do so) can intimidate people, whereas the occasional
> error, subsequently corrected and treated with good humour, is
> apparently endearing.
Yes, because it gives the other person less pressure to be perfect.
Also, mistakes are a good way to learn, if you can make them without
being judged for them.
k
kest
Men care about achieving results. He wants to do it on his own. Women
care about relationships. Men don't want advice unless they ask, and they
only ask when they need an expert opinion. When women talk about
problems they are not asking for advice.
Men deal with stress by withdrawing (men go to 'their cave' according to
Mr. Gray PhD) and thinking it over. Women deal with stress by talking it
out. If a man withdraws, he is not rejecting his partner. If a woman
talks, she is not holding her partner responsible for the problem.
Men need to be needed. Women need to be supported. Trust vs care. If
women learn to set limits on their giving and ask for support with trust,
men will rise to the occasion. Men need to know it is ok to make
mistakes.
Women mean more with their statements than men. Men are more literal,
with a tendency to take things personally. Women try to read too much
into silence. Small changes can help.
Men are like rubberband - they periodically pull away, then get closer.
This worries women and they cling, preventing the cycle. Talking goes
best when men come back on their own.
Women are like waves, dipping in and out of negative feelings Men try to
'fix' things, but in invariable reoccurs, If given support, women will
pass through the low points and return to the peaks.
There are different kinds of love (twelve according to Mr Gray PhD, but I
didn't write them all down.) Give your partner the kind they need, not
the kind you need.
Emotional reactions trigger arguments - feeling attacked. Men focus on
being right and forget to be loving. Women feel judged and intimidated
and become mistrusting. There are four different defensive reactions:
flight, fight, fake, or fold. A typical fight goes
W: I'm upset
M: you shouldn't be upset because xyz
W: more upset, M: upset
For women, each act of love, big and small, is one point. Men try to
earn more points by going for the big goal but it doesn't work well.
Women continue to work even if the score is uneven but grow resentful.
Men stop, unless you ask.
You can write a letter when you are upset. It should express in order
anger, sadness, fear, regret, and love. You can also express the
response you would like to hear. This heps work through to real
feelings.
When asking a man, you should use 'would you' and 'will you' rather than
'could you' and 'can you', or he will feel ordered around. Women should
ask for what they're getting, then practice asking for more, learn to
accept no but appreciate yes. Don't convince if you get a no, just ask
again and wait.
Our past affects our relationships. Things will not always be good but
that's ok. Summer turns into fall turns into winter turns back into
spring.
Jennie Kermode
from Mars, Woen are from Venus' thus:
> Men care about achieving results. He wants to do it on his own. Women
> care about relationships. Men don't want advice unless they ask, and they
> only ask when they need an expert opinion. When women talk about
> problems they are not asking for advice.
You know, most of these points are not so bad if one just drop
the words 'men' and 'women' and replaces them, in each instance, with
'some people'. Just that minor adjustment, and this guy could hack a
living as an agony aunt.
The paragraph above, standing as it is, doesn't look so very
different from the stuff I was reading in that Gilligan book. So much
for feminism.
> Men deal with stress by withdrawing (men go to 'their cave' according to
> Mr. Gray PhD) and thinking it over.
Heh. Donald is a total cliche in that regard, but he's the
only person I've ever known to take it to that extreme (well, not
actually a cave, but the bedroom with the curtains drawn and lights out,
which I guess is similar). I find it odd, but have learned to ignore it.
The thing is, after an argument, I'm really quite happy to just bugger
off and do something more interesting and let him come and talk when he
feels like being more reasonable, but it took me a while to realise that
I didn't need to feel bad about that because it suited him too.
> Women deal with stress by talking it out.
This I find interesting, in that I think there's a distinction
between talking out stress and reasoning a way around a problem (a
process which often requires the input of more than one person,
especially if it's a problem which exists within a relationship), but
the author in this case seems to risk conflating the two. Is what these
women are doing purely phatic, or could it actually be useful?
> If a man withdraws, he is not rejecting his partner. If a woman
> talks, she is not holding her partner responsible for the problem.
That's a cute theory. I get the impression that this guy has
not had many relationships with either men or women. Does he not realise
that people are sometimes, quite genuinely, just bastards?
> Men need to be needed. Women need to be supported.
How odd. I'm not sure I need either, in general. It's nice to
feel needed insofar as I want to feel I have a place in my loved ones'
lives, but I'd hate to think that they couldn't get by without me - I'd
rather they were with me because they wanted to be, rather than because
they were dependent. I do 'need' support sometimes when I'm really ill
or when I've managed to exhaust myself with overwork, but then again,
I've managed to get by on most of the occasions when it hasn't
materialised, and I certainly don't expect it all to come from my
partners (I contribute to wider society so that it, when required, can
help me). Donald and Stuart can both be wonderfully supportive when I'm
busy with work (I always felt they made very good wives in that regard),
and that's something I _like_, but I'd feel utterly disgusted with
myself if I felt I were taking much more than I could give.
> women learn to set limits on their giving and ask for support with trust,
> men will rise to the occasion.
Ah, the eternal optimism of the sheltered academic!
I bet he was home schooled, too.
> Women are like waves, dipping in and out of negative feelings
Ah, so he's discovered the menstrual cycle. Somebody give him
a badge.
> If given support, women will pass through the low points and return
> to the peaks.
Oh yes. Or one could see it as passing through the peaks and
returning to the low points...
> There are different kinds of love (twelve according to Mr Gray PhD, but I
> didn't write them all down.) Give your partner the kind they need, not
> the kind you need.
Love by numbers? He's projecting his problems onto men at
large, isn't he? This kind of social disfunction is something else.
> Emotional reactions trigger arguments - feeling attacked. Men focus on
> being right and forget to be loving.
This is something I'm terrible at. It creates problems with
Donald, who repeatedly fails to anticipate it once his own temper has
been roused, though it's a pattern with which we're both familiar. I'm
gradually getting better at anticipating it myself and saying, okay, I'm
still right, but I shouldn't have shouted and I'm sure you're probably
right too in your own special way. It helps that Stuart is good at
handling me in those moods and will sidetrack his way out of arguments
or just sit and make big eyes, which makes me more likely to feel loving
and guilty, as opposed to Donald's (understandable) anger, which doesn't.
> Women feel judged and intimidated and become mistrusting.
Does the book explain how, from a certain point of view, this
is infuriating? I really can't handle relationships with people who
react like that. Even close friendships can be difficult. There's a sort
of moral superiority about it which really pisses me off.
> You can write a letter when you are upset. It should express in order
> anger, sadness, fear, regret, and love. You can also express the
> response you would like to hear. This heps work through to real
> feelings.
Oddly enough, I've always found that expressing real feelings
is the best way to communicate real feelings, not approaching
reconciliation as a formula.
I really feel sorry for this man.
TenshiKurai9
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:24:20 -0500, kest wrote:
> > Why would talking about your problems cause other people stress?
> > You're not demanding they *solve* them. Many people, in fact, find
> > it feels good to be able to provide a listening ear and possibly some
> > helpful advice.
>
> help solving them....
I do believe the guy from the World View Dissconnects thread was one of
them.
-TenshiKurai9
Matthew King
: The paragraph above, standing as it is, doesn't look so very
: for feminism.
An "ism" is a banner for fighting under. You fight with whatever weapon is
handy. Poison gas is handy if the wind is blowing one way, not handy if
the wind is blowing the other.
: On 2006-06-27, kest <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> summarised 'Men are
: from Mars, Women are from Venus' thus:
: > Men need to be needed. Women need to be supported.
:
: How odd. I'm not sure I need either, in general.
But you say you're *not* either, in general, don't you? In which case it
wouldn't seem odd at all, would it?
: > women learn to set limits on their giving and ask for support with trust,
: > men will rise to the occasion.
:
: Ah, the eternal optimism of the sheltered academic!
: I bet he was home schooled, too.
*koff*
Mr. John Gray, PhD, does not--going by Wikipedia, at least--hold any
degree from any standardly accredited academic institution. He has two
degrees in "Creative Intelligence" from the Maharishi European Research
University, and his PhD is from a diploma mill that has been shut down by
the California Deparment of Consumer Affairs.
Mr. John Gray, PhD, I would venture, is less a sheltered academic than,
say, you are.
: > You can write a letter when you are upset. It should express in order
: > anger, sadness, fear, regret, and love. You can also express the
: > response you would like to hear. This heps work through to real
: > feelings.
:
: Oddly enough, I've always found that expressing real feelings
: is the best way to communicate real feelings, not approaching
: reconciliation as a formula.
My experience suggests that, the more closely people approximate the
social norm, the more out of the question it is for them to communicate
real feelings--except, possibly, in front of a national television
audience--even supposing that women programmed by Oprah (and her buddy Mr.
John Gray, PhD) and men programmed by talk radio jackasses can have
whatever might be meant by *real* feelings in the first place. For them,
there's just struggle, so it's either strategize or lose. And if there are
win-win ways of strategizing, well, that's a good thing, too.
But I'll concede that it's not entirely clear whether the whole industry
selling strategies to successfully control your relationships is more
chicken or more egg.
Matthew
--
sometime we may go back there
to the country of our defeat
but it's been a long time since
and we must enquire the way of strangers
Joseph Brenner
Jennie Kermode <"Jennie Kermode"@triffid.demon.co.uk> writes:
> kest <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> summarised 'Men are from Mars, Woen are from Venus' thus:
And woen to yea who says nay.
>> Men care about achieving results. He wants to do it on his own. Women
>> care about relationships. Men don't want advice unless they ask, and they
>> only ask when they need an expert opinion. When women talk about
>> problems they are not asking for advice.
>
> You know, most of these points are not so bad if one just drop
> the words 'men' and 'women' and replaces them, in each instance, with
> 'some people'. Just that minor adjustment, and this guy could hack a
> living as an agony aunt.
Funny... I started thinking about writing a piece that would be a
list of generalizations which I would then assign to either men
or women by flipping a coin.
>> Men deal with stress by withdrawing (men go to 'their cave' according to
>> Mr. Gray PhD) and thinking it over.
>
> Heh. Donald is a total cliche in that regard, but he's the
> only person I've ever known to take it to that extreme (well, not
> actually a cave, but the bedroom with the curtains drawn and lights out,
> which I guess is similar).
I am much like this, except that I don't need to be under stress.
>> Men need to be needed. Women need to be supported.
>
> How odd. I'm not sure I need either, in general.
Yes, I had the same thought. I certainly don't *need* to be
needed, but on the other hand, I can think of some women who do
(I think they tend to become "cat ladies").
(It doesn't terribly bother me to be needed, but I'm certainly
cautious about getting into situations like that, because I take
them very seriously... I don't want to accidentally take on an
implicit obligation if I'm not reasonably sure I can deliver.)
>> Emotional reactions trigger arguments - feeling attacked. Men focus on
>> being right and forget to be loving.
>
> This is something I'm terrible at.
> Donald, who repeatedly fails to anticipate it once his own temper has
> been roused, though it's a pattern with which we're both familiar. I'm
> gradually getting better at anticipating it myself and saying, okay, I'm
> still right, but I shouldn't have shouted and I'm sure you're probably
> right too in your own special way.
This kind of thing happens with me sometimes of course, but I
think my own in-built defense is a more egotistic response:
"Oh, she's just being irrational again. Well there's no point in
even talking to her about it right now."