: The Macarena. We hate the Macarena. : How's that for a unifying force?
Disturbing Macarena story #273:
UCF recently held an international students forum/festival/whatever to highlight the many different cultures of their students and the whole diversity thing. The local paper covers it by running a 1/3 page picture and brief caption showing scads of students of all sorts of nationalities do the Macarena. So much for diversity.
--Scarecrow
----------------------------------------- Burn bright, dance hard, burn out and don't give a damn about what others think about your style of dance - as long as it is your own. ----------------------------------------- GothCode v2.5: GoEn6.5$DJ2$ TInAnYcs cDBRw5(8) PLGSa M3 ZGoiGo C6c a26- b65 H179 g5T w6T r3 h3 s10 k5 Rz SsYy N0292 LusFL
Ron Cecchini (Cecchini....@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) wrote:
: As long as you realize that your figures weren't statistically significant, : and that your conclusions are based on a very small set of empirical evidence, : and that your logic is.. well... illogical.
Hang out at Hofstra University for one week. Interview the security and people who work at the library and on campus rape counseling center and then tell me I'm wrong.
> : The Macarena. We hate the Macarena. > : How's that for a unifying force?
> Disturbing Macarena story #273:
> UCF recently held an international students forum/festival/whatever > to highlight the many different cultures of their students and the > whole diversity thing. The local paper covers it by running a > 1/3 page picture and brief caption showing scads of students of all > sorts of nationalities do the Macarena. So much for diversity.
> --Scarecrow
> ----------------------------------------- > Burn bright, dance hard, burn out and > don't give a damn about what others > think about your style of dance - > as long as it is your own. > ----------------------------------------- > GothCode v2.5: GoEn6.5$DJ2$ TInAnYcs cDBRw5(8) PLGSa M3 ZGoiGo C6c a26- > b65 H179 g5T w6T r3 h3 s10 k5 Rz SsYy N0292 LusFL
Does anyone have a copy of N&O's ep cd with "A Dozen Winters..." on it that they'd sell me? da...@surfsupcafe.com
Ron Cecchini wrote: > Boy. > I'm glad that you oh-so-goth (wannabe) types are above resorting to > stereotypes.
Screw you, frankly... Many steroetypes have their basis in reality... For instance, I have lived around rednecks on and off during my life... most of the stereotype fits most of the individual cases...
> Am I the only fucking person who see the apparent contradiction in > a) "goths" lamenting and crying how everyone judges them because of how > they look and act, and then turning around and > b) judging others because of how *they* look or because of what social > group(s) they belong to?
Its like I just read EdVamp saying... playing the odds. If you belong to a Greek organization, the chances of you having that ever so appealing combination of ignorance and arrogance go way up. There is also the fact that frat boys have *chosen* to belong to a group whose identity is often based on beer and fucking vapid women at any cost. BTW, there is nothing wrong with judging other people, we do it every minute of every day... the only problems arise when you become fixed in your judgements, and become blinded to ambiguity and subtle difference...
> But the truth is: get a roomful of goths together, turn up the music, > and... I'll be *damned* if it doesn't look like they're all doin' the > same dance...
They may look like they are doing the same dance... but even a moment of close observation reveals that this is not so... I know one girl that bends down until she is in a standing fetal position, then quivers like Jello... In any case, the point is self-expression, whereas the point of Macarena is conformity...
> Ron Cecchini -- Cecchini....@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com > Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication > No Excuses. Shut Up And Train.
I'm stereotyping you right now. It'll be interesting to see if you turn out how I expect.
: I have been "lurking" in this group for awhile trying to find an : answer. I understand the "look" sort of speak but what exactly do : Goths believe in?
> We have a coalition on campus against all the scary evil > sorority~I~have~not~one~brain~cell and fraternity~I~am~a~date~raper > people here, that the second we hear the macarena, we shall commit mass > suicide in protest.
Ah, yes, but do you have a branch of the UnFraternity (tm), Chi Beta Bicycle? -Fenris (who is glad he's not actually a _student_ at Wake Forest U)
-- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer -- dankm...@wfu.edu -- http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ My opinions are my own. PGP public key available. Surreal poetry on request. "I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night." --Milton
Tarik Dozier (t-doz...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote: > The Macarena. We hate the Macarena. > How's that for a unifying force?
Amen! Praise the God-Buscuit. Pass the ammunition. -Fenris
-- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer -- dankm...@wfu.edu -- http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ My opinions are my own. PGP public key available. Surreal poetry on request. "I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night." --Milton
In article <326ECBD3....@fix.net>, tpar...@fix.net wrote: > Screw you, frankly...
Why thank you, and please don't call me "frankly"...
> Many steroetypes have their basis in reality...
Amen brother - been saying that for years...
But it still doesn't mean it's right, or that the stereotypes holds all of the time, most of the time, or even part of the time. A stereotype is a prejudice - a preconceived notion about something. And reacting to a situation or person based upon a stereotype is called a knee-jerk reaction. Ultimately, ignorant and illogical.
But I agree (as you say later on), that we all have our prejudices. You can't be *alive* without having biases or prejudices of some sort - whether they be good or bad. But it's how you react to 'em that I think is important.
[ Wow. All this coming from a conservative? More on that in a sec - ]
> For instance, I have lived around rednecks on and off during my life... > most of the stereotype fits most of the individual cases...
Well, having lived or worked on a farm most of my life up until the age of 18 [ most people don't know that about me - that I actually, at one time, used to get up at 4:00am to go milk the cows... ] I can say that it *wasn't* my experience that the people around me fit the stereotype. Now, granted, we were the "upstate NY" "rednecks". Maybe we differ from the *Southern* "rednecks". Dunno. But while we (a family transplanted from Yonkers, NY) lived life in the slow(er) lane and enjoyed the simple things, I don't remember once seeing a family of inbred "freaks", or a Klan rally, or a black having to take a seat at the back of the bus (and being that I have a black sister, I probably would've killed anyone that tried to do such a thing).
> Its like I just read EdVamp saying... playing the odds.
Hey, at least you admit you're ignorant.
> If you belong to a Greek organization, the chances of you having that > ever so appealing combination of ignorance and arrogance go way up.
Sort of like claiming to be "goth", right?
Hell! I mean, I keep reading posts about "goth pretentiousness", "gothier-than-thou" attitudes, references to "normals", etc. So I guess it's ok if I *assume* that you're all a bunch of arrogant, self-righteous, judgemental assholes, right?
It's a good thing I don't judge everyone in this group, or even everyone who actually *calls* themself a "goth", based on what a few people post...
> There is also the fact that frat boys have *chosen* to belong to a group > whose identity is often based on beer and fucking vapid women at any cost.
Why don't you tell us what you really *know* about fraternities? It's obvious that you've never belonged to one and, like so many before you, judge the entire Greek system based on the movie "Animal House" and some incidents that occurred at your school.
While I'm on my soapbox, what you don't hear about the fraternal system is the plethora of campus activities and community involvement that most fraternities participate in. All you hear, like on the nightly news, is the *shit* that sometimes happens.
Oh, and let me get this straight Alby, "frat boys" are the only people in college who engage in the mind-numbing and scrotum-pleasing acts of beer drinking and chasing women, right?
> BTW, there is nothing wrong with judging other people, we do it every > minute of every day...
As I mentioned above, I agree that we all do it. Again, doesn't mean it's right, but we all do it. Everyone makes a first impression... And the number of people who can truly *not* judge, or (what's a better word?) *assess*, a person, based on their initial contact with that person, is probably very small.
> the only problems arise when you become fixed in your judgements, and become > blinded to ambiguity and subtle difference...
[ Ron scratches his head ] I'm confused now... So, are you saying that you *do* have a problem? I mean, didn't you just say that you *choose* to "play the odds" and trust in stereotypes?
...
But I agree with your statement. As I also implied above, that used to be more of a problem of mine. I mean, isn't it the stereotype that *all* conservatives are close-minded bigots? It's not true, but that's the stereotype.
And while I've been a moderate on some issues for a long time, I admit to being (oh, I won't use the phrase "close-minded"), um, more *resistant* to the idea that certain types of people were anything other than "freaks". [ hey, that was pretty good... ]
I remember sitting in the Deli Haus in Kenmore Sq. at 3am Saturday after Saturday night staring at the "freaks" (who I now assume were goths), dressed in their all-white long-johns, black fingernails, black spiked hair, black combat boots and white face paint - and just shaking my head...
But now, while having no desire to dress like that exactly, I would just look at that person and, well... probably not think anything. I wouldn't care. Let that person be who/whatever they want to be. I still have a problem with people who are blatant *posers*, but whatever... They're the ones that look stupid.
> > Ron Cecchini -- Cecchini....@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com > > Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication > > No Excuses. Shut Up And Train.
> I'm stereotyping you right now.
No kidding. And I've known right along that my .sig probably turned off alot of people. But I don't give a shit. Why should I change it? To "fit in"? Should I spend 4 days calculating my Goth Code to look "kewl"?
So I *lift* *weights*. Oooooo... That makes me *bad*, right?
I must walk around the gym gruntin' and fartin' and draggin' women on the ground by their hair as part of a neanderthal display of some testosterone- induced male chauvanistic ritual designed to show the world who the boss is as a I beat my chest with the clenched fist that had just been dragging along the ground as I yell "Ooga! Ooga!" at the top of my lungs and dare anyone to challenge me lest I smash them over the head with a barbell while I munch on the raw meat from the leg of a rhino that I just beat to death with my one free hand...
Right?
You don't know anything about me or what I'm like in person...
...
So why am I here, if I am apparently so utterly turned off by so many of you? Why? 'cause I realize that you can't judge the masses based on the actions of a few.
And while *my* prejudices about those that call themselves "goth" prevents me from ever calling *myself* a "goth", the fact is that I am interested in, and gravitate towards, most of the things that most goths are interested in. I can't help that. I am what I am and I like what I like. But I'm not going to change the way I look, act or think because it conflicts with the way that The Elders have defined. [ besides, I'd never find any PVC to fit these legs... ]
> It'll be interesting to see if you turn out how I expect.
I'm more complicated than you could imagine. Don't even try to figure me out. Pros couldn't. Priests and Rabbis couldn't. Neither could good friends of mine with extensive experience in the areas of, oh, let's just say: all things mental.
Have a nice day. And I really don't think you're a bad person. Maybe you've just had some bad experiences...
My oh-so-anti-goth .sig to follow -
-- Ron Cecchini -- Cecchini....@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication No Excuses. Shut Up And Train.
> > Many steroetypes have their basis in reality...
> Amen brother - been saying that for years...
> But it still doesn't mean it's right, or that the stereotypes holds > all of the time, most of the time, or even part of the time. > A stereotype is a prejudice - a preconceived notion about something. > And reacting to a situation or person based upon a stereotype is called > a knee-jerk reaction. Ultimately, ignorant and illogical.
It is only a knee-jerk reaction if your judgement is sudden and final, as I said. It is a matter of your thinking beginning with the general then gravitating to the specific as needed. Hardly illogical.
<snip>
<snip, about living on a farm>
Living on a farm does not make you a redneck. My fathers side of my family owned a large ranch\farm and were very literary people. A redneck is the sort of person you admit to never having met.
will you excuse me if I just snip the rest? Because I dont want to take the time to answer you point for point. In any case, we will probably agree in the end, thats how these things go.
Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? Or have I not been clear.
The original poster made a comment about "frat boys." Now, anyone with half a brain knows what she is talking about. Anyone with half a brain also knows that not all people in fraternities are going to fit the steroetype. In fact there are many fraternities that have a good purpose. If I rememeber right, Raphpat is in a fraternity. BUT, she is speaking of those that do fit the steroetype, and there are many. Whats more, she is not speaking so much of frat boys as she is of a tendency to mass thinking in the university that she rightly finds unbecoming and frightening. If it bothers you so much, a simple, "remember that not all people in a fraternity are clones", would have done the trick.
Instead, you give her a lecture about how goths are misunderstood and arent they hypocrites for judging people then whining about being judged themselves. (I actually like to be misjudged. I'm addicted to it. I go out of my way to give people the wrong idea about me.)
And all I said was, all people judge all people all the time... and it only becomes a problem when people are closed in their judgements, so that they cant see an individual for who they are. And that many steroetypes have there basis in reality.
The term "frat boy", is going to be used around here, not to descibe any particular person, but as a symbol of a certain type of conforming and thoughtless behaviour. Redneck is used in the same way. "Gothier than thou" is used in the same way. When such steroetypes are called on, it is like any other use of language, if you dont know the meaning behind the symbol then you will be misunderstanding.
You may well argue that "frat boy" is not a good symbol. It is a flawed symbol for reasons already stated.
I beleive that you were deliberately misunderstanding the use of the symbol in order to make some self-righteous point.
I was not stereotyping you on the fact that you life weights. More on the "no excuses. shut up and train."
> Now, granted, we were the "upstate NY" "rednecks". Maybe we > differ from the *Southern* "rednecks". Dunno. But while we (a family > transplanted from Yonkers, NY) lived life in the slow(er) lane and enjoyed the > simple things, I don't remember once seeing a family of inbred "freaks", or a > Klan rally, or a black having to take a seat at the back of the bus (and being > that I have a black sister, I probably would've killed anyone that tried to do > such a thing). >The northern 'rednecks' probably differ from the southern 'rednecks',
you're right in that. I've seen enough racism down here to last three lifetimes. I wanted to go to a dance in HS with a african american friend of mine, and my father wouldn't let me. Merely because he was black.
> Hey, at least you admit you're ignorant. > do you? > Hell! I mean, I keep reading posts about "goth pretentiousness", > "gothier-than-thou" attitudes, references to "normals", etc. > So I guess it's ok if I *assume* that you're all a bunch of arrogant, > self-righteous, judgemental assholes, right?
I am to people I don't like.... especially when they try to say I'm a ohsogoth wannabe
> Why don't you tell us what you really *know* about fraternities?
I'll tell you what I know. Wait, I did. You ignored my answer.
> It's obvious that you've never belonged to one and, like so many before you, > judge the entire Greek system based on the movie "Animal House" and some > incidents that occurred at your school.
*some* incidents??? Boy, you just don't know, do you? I've had friends come crying to me because some frat boy tried to rape them at a party. I've heard them make some of the most sexist and racist jokes I've ever heard. One of the fraternities on campus BURNED DOWN a black fraterity's house, and all they got was a year's suspension. I hear comments walking to class about the way I dress, one of my friend's got beat up because she had a lip ring, and they said they wanted to "rid the world of the freaks". Some sorority wench wrote "fuck you you bitch" on my friends door because she has a black boyfriend. Some girl wrote "you a freak" on mine. Some girls in my dorm won't even get into the elevator with me because of the way I look. and still, you assume we're making generalizations??? I'll repeat what you said to me. Get a clue.
> While I'm on my soapbox, what you don't hear about the fraternal system is > the plethora of campus activities and community involvement that most > fraternities participate in. All you hear, like on the nightly news, is > the *shit* that sometimes happens. > not down here. Not down here. > Oh, and let me get this straight Alby, "frat boys" are the only people > in college who engage in the mind-numbing and scrotum-pleasing acts of > beer drinking and chasing women, right?
of course not. Those are the 'wannabe' frat boys.
> I remember sitting in the Deli Haus in Kenmore Sq. at 3am Saturday after > Saturday night staring at the "freaks" (who I now assume were goths), dressed > in their all-white long-johns, black fingernails, black spiked hair, black > combat boots and white face paint - and just shaking my head...
> Should I spend 4 days calculating my Goth Code to look "kewl"?
> So I *lift* *weights*. Oooooo... That makes me *bad*, right?
> I must walk around the gym gruntin' and fartin' and draggin' women on the > ground by their hair as part of a neanderthal display of some testosterone- > induced male chauvanistic ritual designed to show the world who the boss > is as a I beat my chest with the clenched fist that had just been dragging > along the ground as I yell "Ooga! Ooga!" at the top of my lungs and dare > anyone to challenge me lest I smash them over the head with a barbell while > I munch on the raw meat from the leg of a rhino that I just beat to death > with my one free hand...
> Right?
> You don't know anything about me or what I'm like in person...
as you know NOTHING of me or anyone else.
> ...
> So why am I here, if I am apparently so utterly turned off by so many of you? > Why? > I sit here, asking myself the same question
'cause I realize that you can't judge the masses based on the actions of a few.
> I can't help that. I am what I am and I like what I like. > But I'm not going to change the way I look, act or think because it conflicts > with the way that The Elders have defined.
don't. but don't mock me for my beliefs. If I stereotyped frat boys, then I *must* have a reason for it. Every one I've encountered is that way, and I've encountered a *lot*. And I know this wasn't a followup to anything I said, but since you didn't answer what I *did* respond with, I figured I'd put my two cents in for this one. Twilight
> > We have a coalition on campus against all the scary evil > > sorority~I~have~not~one~brain~cell and fraternity~I~am~a~date~raper > > people here, that the second we hear the macarena, we shall commit mass > > suicide in protest.
> Ah, yes, but do you have a branch of the UnFraternity (tm), Chi Beta > Bicycle? > -Fenris (who is glad he's not actually a _student_ at Wake Forest U)
nopers, but we have the ever present Lamda Sigma Delta! <efg> ~T~
tpar...@fix.net wrote: > "remember that not all people in a fraternity are clones", > would have done the trick.
I'll remember that next time.
> (I actually like to be misjudged. I'm addicted to it. > I go out of my way to give people the wrong idea about me.)
Ha. Maybe we are a little alike... While I wouldn't say that I'm "addicted" to it, I have purposely given people the wrong idea before... And I do oftentimes amuse myself with the thought that people are probably labelling me a dumb musclehed because of they way I look & dress in public...
> I beleive that you were deliberately misunderstanding the use of > the symbol in order to make some self-righteous point.
C'mon man... spare me the "self-righteous" dig. I'm not a crusade of any sort. I mean, it's not like this is the first time I've seen fraternities referred to in a less than positive way... I guess I really did misunderstand you (and her). Yeah, I guess I'd prefer a better label for that symbol... But now I know what you're talking about when you use it. So I guess it'd be ok if I said something like: "Why do so many of today's 'goths' exhibit that 'frat boy' image of mass conformity and think they all have to wear black clothes and makeup?"
Peace bro.
-- Ron Cecchini -- Cecchini....@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication No Excuses. Shut Up And Train.
LordDrakon (lorddra...@aol.com) wrote: > You are making the incorrect assumption that there is some set of > qualities which form a kind of "gothic checklist", to which each goth must
This gave me an interesting image...
Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate... -Fenris (Government liscensing of EVERYTHING)
-- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer -- dankm...@wfu.edu -- http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ My opinions are my own. PGP public key available. Surreal poetry on request. "I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night." --Milton
> LordDrakon (lorddra...@aol.com) wrote: > > You are making the incorrect assumption that there is some set of > > qualities which form a kind of "gothic checklist", to which each goth must > This gave me an interesting image... > Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's > apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when > you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate...
And if you fail certification, and are equally lucky, you get the beating of a lifetime. Either way, everybody wins!
"The opinions I have expressed are really your opinions as well, you just refuse to admit it to yourself." -Tom Grassia
> LordDrakon (lorddra...@aol.com) wrote: > > You are making the incorrect assumption that there is some set of > > qualities which form a kind of "gothic checklist", to which each goth must
> This gave me an interesting image...
> Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's > apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when > you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate... > -Fenris (Government liscensing of EVERYTHING)Ack. I and some of my more sick and twisted friends (you should see th
mild ones) were dicussing forming an "Fashion Police" squad and going around and giving out tickets to the particularly offensive...(like the blonde california-tanning creme models in acid-wash denim and pink sweaters and their ken-doll boyfreinds who show up to goth/industrial clubs to gape at the wildlife). It is frightening hearing this idea out of someone else.
: This gave me an interesting image... : : Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's : apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when : you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate... : -Fenris (Government liscensing of EVERYTHING)
This gave ME an interesting flashback...
"What if they come in and tell us we're doing it wrong?" "'They' who?" "The Lesbian Task Force!"
> This gave ME an interesting flashback... > "What if they come in and tell us we're doing it wrong?" > "'They' who?" > "The Lesbian Task Force!" > -From "Floating Rhoda and the Glue Man"
Yes! Yes!!! That play rocked! The Armory Free Theater is one of C-U's most redeeming qualities. Speaking of which... I miss Naked Theater!
"The time has come for us to mount our donkeys and leave, for you are beginning to bore our clearly deranged minds." -Dave Foley
== Tarik John Dozier ======================================================= Webmaster / New Media Center Asst. Coordinator, UIUC Undergraduate Library Computer Systems Specialist / Asst. Network Manager, Hobbico aeonf...@cryogen.com t-doz...@staff.uiuc.edu osi...@deathsdoor.com ===================================== http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/t-dozier ==
Ron Cecchini (Cecchini....@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) wrote:
: Hell! I mean, I keep reading posts about "goth pretentiousness", : "gothier-than-thou" attitudes, references to "normals", etc. : So I guess it's ok if I *assume* that you're all a bunch of arrogant, : self-righteous, judgemental assholes, right?
Yes, now run along and play on the freeway.
: Why don't you tell us what you really *know* about fraternities? : It's obvious that you've never belonged to one and, like so many before you, : judge the entire Greek system based on the movie "Animal House" and some : incidents that occurred at your school.
Odd, isn't it? People making generalizations based on their own experiences.
: Should I spend 4 days calculating my Goth Code to look "kewl"?
If it takes you 4 days to calculate your Goth Code...
: I must walk around the gym gruntin' and fartin' and draggin' women on the : ground by their hair as part of a neanderthal display of some testosterone- : induced male chauvanistic ritual designed to show the world who the boss : is as a I beat my chest with the clenched fist that had just been dragging : along the ground as I yell "Ooga! Ooga!" at the top of my lungs and dare : anyone to challenge me lest I smash them over the head with a barbell while : I munch on the raw meat from the leg of a rhino that I just beat to death : with my one free hand...
Really? Is that a membership requirement of the gym you belong to?
In Twilight <lucre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > The northern 'rednecks' probably differ from the southern 'rednecks', > you're right in that. I've seen enough racism down here to last three > lifetimes. I wanted to go to a dance in HS with a african american friend > of mine, and my father wouldn't let me. Merely because he was black.
Well, that's unfortunate that such attitudes exist in your very family. Hell, even my grandparents (very old world-style Italians) have told my sister that she shouild marry within her "own". I'll spare you the rant that I (in a moment of disrespect) unleashed upon my grandmother.
> > Hey, at least you admit you're ignorant. > do you?
I *am* stubborn, and it does take alot to convince me that I'm wrong, but to answer your question: yes. I will admit when I'm wrong, or when I don't know. But I admit to usually having an opinion of some sort on a given subject - even if it's not a well-researched opinion.
> I am to people I don't like.... especially when they try to say I'm a > ohsogoth wannabe
The reason for that implication was (besides being pretty pissed off at that moment in time) because of the glaring contradiction between your attitude and (what I *thought*) was the Goth attitude/mentality/belief/philosophy of tolerance, open-mindedness and acceptance.
> > Why don't you tell us what you really *know* about fraternities?
> I'll tell you what I know. Wait, I did. You ignored my answer.
Ahh! You mention this twice... Apparently my oh-so-flaky server didn't get your reply (and I thought it was actually behaving recently...) Or maybe I somehow overlooked it. Since I've been replying to every other response in this thread, obviously I'm not ducking your questions. So go ahead and resend/post it (public or private - I don't care), and I'll respond.
> *some* incidents??? Boy, you just don't know, do you? I've had friends > come crying to me because some frat boy tried to rape them at a party. ... > and still, you assume we're making generalizations???
Sure you are.
If you really believe that *all* fraternity/sorority members behave exactly alike, then you *are* making a generalization. Moreover, let me ask: has every act of intolerance/prejudice you've experienced come from a member of the Greek system? I admit to having a *real* hard time believing that...
See, you gotta realize that, having been in a fraternity (as well as some other sub/coutnercultures), I feel a kindred spirit of sorts to any group/subculture/etc that gets maligned because of the actions of *some* of it's members. Sure, fraternities are infinitely more "mainstream" than, say, the Goth sub/counterculture. But don't think for *minute* that I/we didn't suffer from incessant and excessive prejudices from not only the media, the community, but even our campus at times.
People tend to focus only on the negative. That's what sticks in their heads. They forget all the positive and good things. That's fact.
And what's fact is that my fraternity, and the whole Greek system, did more for the campus and community, raised more money for local charities, put on more benefits, provided more Big Brother and tutoring services, etc. - than any single group of FISH (our word for "independents") on campus. [ and we consistently exceeded the All Men's average. Thhhhbt! ]
...
BTW, regarding the rape thing, *I've* had some friends (both fraternal and independent) who's reps were seriously damaged by drunk women claiming date rape and who, both in campus hearings and courts of law, were fully exhonerated off all the charges brought against them by the women.
So excuse me if I'm touchy on *that* subject. Rape is rape. And any every rapist should have his johnson lopped off with a dull spoon. But I have seen *first* *hand* how a false accusation can almost ruin someone. So, while your friends may have truly almost been raped, I feel like I have to throw my 2 cents in when you bring rape into a discussion about fraternities.
> > Oh, and let me get this straight Alby, "frat boys" are the only people > > in college who engage in the mind-numbing and scrotum-pleasing acts of > > beer drinking and chasing women, right?
> of course not. Those are the 'wannabe' frat boys.
Alright Twilight... Now I'm not sure if you're just tryin' to yank my chain, piss me off, or if you really believe that... [ I suspect the former ]
'cause I hardly think that: 1) *no* Goth likes to drink (that's obviously false) 2) *no* (male) Goth likes women (that's probably less obvious than #1, but still obviously false)
> > I remember sitting in the Deli Haus in Kenmore Sq. at 3am Saturday after > > Saturday night staring at the "freaks" (who I now assume were goths), dressed > > in their all-white long-johns, black fingernails, black spiked hair, black > > combat boots and white face paint - and just shaking my head...
> why? because they looked different than you?
Um, yes. I think I pretty much stated than in my initial post. I said I *used* to judge them by the way they looked - but that I don't do it anymore.
[ BTW, I tried the Velvet Elvis for the first time this Friday night. If you haven't tried it: do it! Mmmm... peanut butter... ]
> > So why am I here, ... > I sit here, asking myself the same question
I think I answered that one, Twilight honey.
We all pretty much have alot of the same interests. But we don't all have to agree with every single other person in the group.
Just as, while many member of a fraternity or sorority will have common interests and goals, not every member agrees with (or even *likes*) every other member. Nor does every member necessarily agree with or condone the activities of every other member.
> don't. but don't mock me for my beliefs.
Well, I did't think I was mocking - just pointing out what I perceived to be a contradiction.
> If I stereotyped frat boys, then I *must* have a reason for it.
And maybe some frat boy's mom got bitten by a vampire 'causing him much mental anguish and despair and thus motivating him to spend and devote the entire rest of his godforsaken life to eradicating the undead from the face of this planet and persecuting all those who give the appearance of sympathizing with said creatures of the night with their acrylic fangs black capes and makeup mm t-shirts and crow posters...
See my point? I'm not berating you for making a generalization. We *ALL* do it. But just as I would like someone to educate me when I'm speaking from my ass, I find it necessary to educate those that are doing likewise.
> Every one I've encountered is that way, and I've encountered a *lot*.
Just use your head and realize that whatever prejudices you may be facing cannot be blamed solely on the Greek system or described as being a purely Greek phenomenon.
> And I know this wasn't a followup to anything I said, but since you > didn't answer what I *did* respond with, I figured I'd put my two cents > in for this one.
No prob. Post (or email - if you don't want to continue this on-line) your original response and I'll respond.
...
Thinking about changing my .sig to:
"Gem][ni - The Bipolar Wonder of the Modern World" or "Gem][ni - 'cause 2 heads are better than one!"
[ hmmm... I think I like that... ]
Later
[ I have a certain poster I have to throw out before I get a stake put through my heart... ]
-- Ron Cecchini -- Cecchini....@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication No Excuses. Shut Up And Train.
Ron Cecchini wrote: > the glaring contradiction between your attitude and > (what I *thought*) was the Goth attitude/mentality/belief/philosophy > of tolerance, open-mindedness and acceptance.
<laugh> Um, no, those were the hippies. They're in hiding now; they're pumpin out books about rainbows and the global brain.
A ++++++++++++++++++++ He was a good boy, he was a nice boy, he was a shy boy, and it made him bitter. -Hemingway, from The Sun Also Rises tpar...@fix.net
> > LordDrakon (lorddra...@aol.com) wrote: > > > You are making the incorrect assumption that there is some set of > > > qualities which form a kind of "gothic checklist", to which each goth must
> > This gave me an interesting image...
> > Imagine a "Goth Inspector", someone dressed in black going around one's > > apartment with a clipboard, checking things up. If you're lucky, when > > you're done you get the "Grade A Goth" certificate... > > -Fenris (Government liscensing of EVERYTHING)Ack. I and some of my more sick and twisted friends (you should see th > mild ones) were dicussing forming an "Fashion Police" squad and going > around and giving out tickets to the particularly offensive...(like > the blonde california-tanning creme models in acid-wash denim and pink > sweaters and their ken-doll boyfreinds who show up to goth/industrial > clubs to gape at the wildlife). It is frightening hearing this idea out > of someone else.
Actually, this was a policy instituted in the State of California several years ago, although unfortunately the administration of this horrid task was delegated to someone who senselessly believes in the right of people to dress as they choose. However, in the interest of preserving good taste and the State of California's reputation as being not only a bastion of truth and decency and the American Way (except of course for San Francisco <grin>), he orderd his Fashion Police to restrict themselves to ticketing anyone found wearing anything made of pure polyester, and in fact outlawed all wide-lapelled polyester leisure suits entirely, with the exception of persons from Las Vegas who were entitled under the Freedom of Religion exemptions.
> (hive mind, anyone?)
don't get me started, I live in DC...
> StrangeGirl
-- Be kind to your | When the going gets weird the weird turn pro. neighbors even though | http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/ they be transgenic | Now. chock full of uninteresting links. chimerae. |-- Genesis 19:1-13 - Hebrews 13:2 -- ---- INCOMING! http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/incoming.html --------- "Sarah Connor?" All UseNet and BitNet postings are copyrighted.
> Ron Cecchini (Cecchini....@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com) wrote: > But "goth-dancing" isn't exactly, uh, complicated (?).
Well, I once had an argument with my ex-SO in which he tried to claim that it was more difficult to dance to techno than to goth... (this was back when he actually claimed he WASN'T goth as opposed to the way he tosses the word around now... it's a scary thought that he thinks he's in the same subculture as me now...) I retorted that all you need to do to dance to techno is jump up and down, which seems about right to me (don't get me wrong, I *heart* techno), and yet he still claimed otherwise... I was amused.
-eloquence-
-=<http://arch.housing.wisc.edu/~elly/>=- "Their hipbones met and spoke to each other in a secret bone language. The boy's smile was heartbreakingly sweet." -PZB CO-FOUNDER and QUEEN DIVINE: a.g.CRs -=<PROPERTY OF: Raphrat>=-
: I retorted that all you need to do to dance to techno is jump up : and down, which seems about right to me (don't get me wrong, I : *heart* techno), and yet he still claimed otherwise... I was amused.
This is why it's difficult... 'tis too boring to bother dancing through the entire song.
{You should really do something about that "heart" thing.}
In article <55josq$...@tepe.tezcat.com>, ex...@tezcat.com (Rick Taylor) wrote: > -eloquence- (cre...@lm.com) wrote: > : I retorted that all you need to do to dance to techno is jump up > : and down, which seems about right to me (don't get me wrong, I > : *heart* techno), and yet he still claimed otherwise... I was amused.
> This is why it's difficult... 'tis too boring to bother dancing through > the entire song.
You have a point there... *smirks*
> {You should really do something about that "heart" thing.}
Well, that's what happens when I just wake up... I get all silly and stuff...
-eloquence-
-=<http://arch.housing.wisc.edu/~elly/>=- "Their hipbones met and spoke to each other in a secret bone language. The boy's smile was heartbreakingly sweet." -PZB CO-FOUNDER and QUEEN DIVINE: a.g.CRs -=<PROPERTY OF: Raphrat>=-
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