It is self indulgant. Sign out now.
I have a tendancy to rate value by accomplishment - potential or realized.
My value especially. What I am, how I matter, what I'm worth is equal to
what I can produce, what I can do. Every story I write and every idea I
have contributes to my overall worth as a person. An inability to
accomplish anything equates a lack of value.
I have never had many friends. I know a lot of people, like a lot of
people and hang out with a lot of people, but those friends (you know, the
ones books talk about) who are always there, understand you and are those
you relax with - I've never really had many. I've got two, now. I think
that's a record high, actually. I didn't have any in high school. I've
dated both of my friends.
I have been trying to accomplish. I always try to accomplish, but I have
been less a job lately, giving me extra time to work on my dreams, and to
concentrate on things which I think will give me more value as a person -
projects which embody all I have to offer life. I feel like an artist
that way: What I will give to live is goign to be these ideas. These
projects. And the products of them.
I'm finding it very, very difficult to accomplish anything unsupported.
Phenominally difficult. I can barely describe. I work my ass off for
three twenty hour days ona project, and come up with a framework I'm
proud of, to have my friends say "eh. huh. cool." and go back to their
video games. They ask to see nothing, add nothing, give their opinions on
nothing. (No, I say "well... what do you think?" and they say "good.")
Their lack on enthousiasm, lack of *care* drains me, whipes all creativity
and heart and hope I might have had out...
On one level, I understand that they have other things they care about,
that my projects aren't things that interest them.... but I cannot begin
to describe how much I would *give* to have a single friend who doesn't
just feign interest because we are friendly, but who genuinely believe in
my ideas, want to help out and want to pitch in. I want a single friend
who will be a co-conspirator, someone who will be as enthousiastic as I
am, and help, and add.
I feel as if I am surrounded by apathy. No matter how much I try to start
things, do things and make things, I am blocked with indifference or
worse, a willingness to go along because there's nothing better to do. No
enthousiasm. No care.
I want to put my heart into something and have it some up good, and have
people support me, and tell me it's good. I want to help with something
that takes all of my personal resources. I don't know...
I want to be able to call someone up on a friday night and say "hey, let's
start a zine!" and have them say "fuck, cool! I have just the idea!..."
And together we could make something truely *great*.
I feel like I need support, for just once.
argh.
anyway.
leanan sidhe
--
http://redmolly.dreaming.org
(the future of fantasy filmmaking)
http://members.nbci.com/Leanan/update.html
(last update: April 5 2001)
> I have a tendancy to rate value by accomplishment - potential or realized.
> My value especially. What I am, how I matter, what I'm worth is equal to
> what I can produce, what I can do. Every story I write and every idea I
> have contributes to my overall worth as a person. An inability to
> accomplish anything equates a lack of value.
Why do you think this is? What is keeping you from valuing yourself just for
yourself, without a list of "things I've done"? I'm not knocking you for it,
mind you, it's pretty much the basis of our society. No one ever asks someone
"Who are you? Tell me about yourself," they ask, "What do you do?" I'm not
saying it's bad to accomplish things, but I always wonder how we all got
sucked into judging each other (and ourselves) by what we've accomplished,
insead of who we are.
> I have never had many friends. I know a lot of people, like a lot of
> people and hang out with a lot of people, but those friends (you know, the
> ones books talk about) who are always there, understand you and are those
> you relax with - I've never really had many. I've got two, now. I think
> that's a record high, actually. I didn't have any in high school. I've
> dated both of my friends.
You explain this as if it's a bad thing. Why? (It's not, you know.)
> I have been trying to accomplish. I always try to accomplish, but I have
> been less a job lately, giving me extra time to work on my dreams, and to
> concentrate on things which I think will give me more value as a person -
> projects which embody all I have to offer life. I feel like an artist
> that way: What I will give to live is goign to be these ideas. These
> projects. And the products of them.
I keep re-reading that paragraph and it comes out as if you're trying to
accomplish things for the sake of accomplishing things, not because you have a
burning idea or desire inside you to create something or present your message
to the world. Are you crossing things off a "to-do" list, or are you giving a
part of yourself to the world through various creative mediums?
> I'm finding it very, very difficult to accomplish anything unsupported.
> Phenominally difficult. I can barely describe. I work my ass off for
> three twenty hour days ona project, and come up with a framework I'm
> proud of, to have my friends say "eh. huh. cool." and go back to their
> video games. They ask to see nothing, add nothing, give their opinions on
> nothing. (No, I say "well... what do you think?" and they say "good.")
> Their lack on enthousiasm, lack of *care* drains me, whipes all creativity
> and heart and hope I might have had out...
I don't know your friends and I don't know your projects, so it may or may not
be a case of just not being interested in that particular subject. But even if
you totally love a person, it can be hard to be enthused over a project
they've completed that doesn't directly involve you. For instance, I love Greg
and totally support him in his feedback monitor stuff, but I don't tune in to
his show. The music he plays bores me to tears. Doesn't mean I don't love him
or support him, but because it's something I don't have a creative hand in,
it's not something I'm going to be all that excited about. The same goes for
Greg and toronto-underground. It's pretty much my baby, and getting Greg to
help (or even find the time to help) can be a struggle. We're definitely there
to help one another when necessary, but it's cool that we both have our own
separate projects to work on.
And as for other people being enthused... it can run hot and cold. I got some
great feedback from people when to-u when live, but I also got some "ehh, it's
okay" type responses from people whose opinions I would have loved to have in
more detail.
> On one level, I understand that they have other things they care about,
> that my projects aren't things that interest them.... but I cannot begin
> to describe how much I would *give* to have a single friend who doesn't
> just feign interest because we are friendly, but who genuinely believe in
> my ideas, want to help out and want to pitch in. I want a single friend
> who will be a co-conspirator, someone who will be as enthousiastic as I
> am, and help, and add.
How are you approaching them? Do you have an idea already formed in your head
of what something will be when it's done, or do you go to them with just the
seed of an idea and work to develop it together?
> I feel as if I am surrounded by apathy. No matter how much I try to start
> things, do things and make things, I am blocked with indifference or
> worse, a willingness to go along because there's nothing better to do. No
> enthousiasm. No care.
Welcome to the real world babe.
> I want to put my heart into something and have it some up good, and have
> people support me, and tell me it's good. I want to help with something
> that takes all of my personal resources. I don't know...
Chuck, I think you need to look at your *reasons* for wanting/needing this
support. Is it for attention or self-esteem? Is it for the camaraderie in
working on something together? If you have it in you to create, then that
should be enough, the process and the message should be satisfactory. If you
find yourself needing something more beyond that, it might be an idea to take
a look at *why* you're not happy with just the process and the finished
product.
> I want to be able to call someone up on a friday night and say "hey, let's
> start a zine!" and have them say "fuck, cool! I have just the idea!..."
>
> And together we could make something truely *great*.
Do you do this? Do you call up people you know and ask them to come over and
make a zine? Or do you brush it off as being silly or them not really being
interested?
> I feel like I need support, for just once.
Again, I don't know your friends or the projects you've been working on, but
maybe, in their own way, they *are* supporting you. That's the thing about
support, you don't really get to dictate what type and how much. You can only
take what you're given, and if it's not in the form or quantity that you'd
prefer, then you just have to pull up your boots and keep going.
Have you tried talking to the people closest to you to let them know that
you'd like them to be more enthusiastic over the things you do? Have you made
an effort to make the projects such that they can't help but want to be
involved? And have you tried to find other outlets of social support for your
projects? Art clasees where you can meet other people working in the same
medium as you, for instance. Visiting galleries and networking if photography
is your thing... There are tonnes of groups out there set up specifically for
people looking to meet other like-minded people to work on various projects.
Maybe you should be looking there instead of to your friends for that support.
Sheryl
(PS... you've got mail here... email me with your new address so I can forward
it)
--
http://www.toronto-underground.com
A web directory for the rest of us.
>I'm finding it very, very difficult to accomplish anything unsupported.
>Phenominally difficult. I can barely describe. I work my ass off for
>three twenty hour days ona project, and come up with a framework I'm
>proud of, to have my friends say "eh. huh. cool." and go back to their
>video games. They ask to see nothing, add nothing, give their opinions on
>nothing. (No, I say "well... what do you think?" and they say "good.")
I hate that :). Good means *absolutely nothing* when it comes to
criticism. IT can mean bloody well anything: 'I like it. I'm too dim
to judge. I hate it but I like you. I haven't even listened.'
>Their lack on enthousiasm, lack of *care* drains me, whipes all creativity
>and heart and hope I might have had out...
Hmmn. On one hand, I strongly sympathize with what you're saying.
It's really difficult to create when no one seems interested. On the
other hand, I can't help but think you've landed yourself in a catch
22 through your own actions: You need support to create, but the lack
of creative production can make people think you're just an idle
dreamer who will never follow a project through *anyway*, so why
should they *bother* caring.
Even here, you posted saying that you spend a lot of time coming up
with a framework. A framework is a very good thing to have, but art
is in the details...people may need more before they can begin to
criticize in a constructive way. If someone tells me about a plot
they have for a story, there's very little I can do to criticize, you
know? I can say 'that sounds interesting', but there's no way to know
if you'll be able to pull it off well until it's through and done
with.
>I feel as if I am surrounded by apathy.
You are ;). Creative apathy, anyway.
> No matter how much I try to start
>things, do things and make things, I am blocked with indifference or
>worse, a willingness to go along because there's nothing better to do. No
>enthousiasm. No care.
You realize that an artist's path is primarily a solitary one, right?
>I want to be able to call someone up on a friday night and say "hey, let's
>start a zine!" and have them say "fuck, cool! I have just the idea!..."
See...that's a really difficult thing to do. A magazine takes capital
to get started.
------
Grimm, who is Chris
"If you're so evil, why don't you eat this kitten?"
-The Tick
> Why do you think this is? What is keeping you from valuing yourself just for
> yourself, without a list of "things I've done"? I'm not knocking you for it,
> mind you, it's pretty much the basis of our society. No one ever asks someone
> "Who are you? Tell me about yourself," they ask, "What do you do?" I'm not
> saying it's bad to accomplish things, but I always wonder how we all got
> sucked into judging each other (and ourselves) by what we've accomplished,
> insead of who we are.
I think this largely has to do with how we define ourselves <who we are>.
In a way, we start out as a "tabla Rasa". What we accomplish fills this
page. If I were to ask you "Who are you?" you could give me your name, but
where does the conversation go from there if I am to learn more about you?
I can ask "where do you live?" and you could answer me, but does a name &
a place really tell me much of who you are?
What does answer the question of "Who are you?"
They may be hobbies, interests, etc.. these are the "what you do"
type questions and they start to mold more of an image of who we are.
Accomplishments in the generic sense are siply what we do, whether it be
going to china <travel> dancing in clubs <leisure>. These start to form a
superposition of different identifiers and the composition of all these
things shape our perception of ourselves.
In Charlotte's post, I think she's just putting a weighted value on
accomplishements, in the sense that achievement carries a higher weight in
identification than simply doing things.
I sort of agree with her, in a round about way, simply b/c to achieve
something, there is usually a combination of determination, interest and
either talent or dedication. The interest is an identifier, the dedication
can also be.
I also believe accomplishment is a sort of feedback mechanism for
self-identity. If we do nothing from day to day, it become difficult to
track personal evolution:
"If I was this person, who am I now?"
"If the people I know are not the people I know now, how can I be the same
person I was?"
I think the question to tackle is "How do we define who we are?" ad once
this is answered then we can try to attempt the question:
"What is keeping you from valuing yourself just for yourself?"
b/c it's tough to define yourself without throwing in "what you do" into
the mix. IMO
jv
Leanan, trust me, this is a good thing. That is exactly how it SHOULD be.
True friends are VERY hard to come by, and it's pretty much impossible to
keep several really close friends, because when you have a lot of them, you
end up dividing your time so much that eventually you drift apart to where
they become just normal friends. The best arrangement you can have is a lot
of normal friends, people you can just go and have fun and hang with, and a
very small iner-circle of people you truly trust.
> I'm finding it very, very difficult to accomplish anything unsupported.
> Phenominally difficult. I can barely describe. I work my ass off for
> three twenty hour days ona project, and come up with a framework I'm
> proud of, to have my friends say "eh. huh. cool." and go back to their
> video games.
Do your friends share your interests? What is likely happening here is that
they don't realize how difficult what you've done is, and how much work has
gone into it. I know what you mean, though. That can be incredibly
frustrating when you have poured yourself into something and no one realy
appreciates it. I would suggest, however, that you make an effort to wait
until the people are not pre-occupied with something before you show them
your latest project.
> They ask to see nothing, add nothing, give their opinions on
> nothing. (No, I say "well... what do you think?" and they say "good.")
> Their lack on enthousiasm, lack of *care* drains me, whipes all creativity
> and heart and hope I might have had out...
Don't give up, Leanan. Have you tried looking for people who are really into
what you do? You mentioned writing, correct? A lot of places will have clubs
where writers get together to share their latest works and comment on what
each other have written. I've heard that they are great, because you are
with peers, and they understand what goes into the process. Maybe you could
try forming a Yahoo club or something, and then meeting up somewhere where
you live. Whatever happens, don't give up.
--
-Wraith
-Fear not death, but a life poorly lived
-Carpe nocturne
-http://www.geocities.com/wraithtdk/index.htm
My name is Sheryl, I live in a old Victorian house in the most multi-cultural
part of Toronto. I grew up in Halifax and moved here when I was 18. I have
constant, almost painful yearnings to be back near the ocean, and someday hope
to move back. I have three cats but am really more of a dog person and have a
120 pound dog named Bowie. I don't listen to music anymore and enjoy the peace
and quiet. My house is full of things that I love and completely reflects who
I am. I care about the environment, about the threat of globalization and
about eating healthy food. I am allergic to many perfumes and chemicals. I am
organized and am meticulously neat. I am spiritual, but not religious. I enjoy
good food and love to cook. I enjoy gardens (both my own and those of other
people), walking the dog, feeding birds and sitting in the sun.
I think that gives a fairly good idea of who I am without any kind if specific
"look... I did this!" type of statement.
> They may be hobbies, interests, etc.. these are the "what you do"
> type questions and they start to mold more of an image of who we are.
True... I really meant of a "What job do you do?" which is pretty much the
standard inquiry in any type of situation where you're meeting someone for the
first time.
> Accomplishments in the generic sense are siply what we do, whether it be
> going to china <travel> dancing in clubs <leisure>. These start to form a
> superposition of different identifiers and the composition of all these
> things shape our perception of ourselves.
I don't disagree with you, I just think there's a lot more too it than that
which people don't really look for because it's just so much easier to deal
with accomplishments (especially when there's no other common modifier such as
having a dog, or being neighbours).
> In Charlotte's post, I think she's just putting a weighted value on
> accomplishements, in the sense that achievement carries a higher weight in
> identification than simply doing things.
>
> I sort of agree with her, in a round about way, simply b/c to achieve
> something, there is usually a combination of determination, interest and
> either talent or dedication. The interest is an identifier, the dedication
> can also be.
But my point is that most people are only going to see (and judge) the final
product. Which often diminishes or even negates the sense of doing and the
process of that achievement. For instance... I make cakes. Not often, only for
special occasions, only for people I love, but they are labours of love that
can takes hours, days or even weeks to complete. Sure, people ooh and ahh over
the final product, but they often have no idea of the stress and frustration
that goes into the process. Especially if the cake they see is the second or
third attempt because something fucked up or toppled or the chocolate siezed,
etc, etc. Other than the fact that cake #3 is the one that people get to see,
what makes the effort put into that one worth more than the effort put into
the first two that failed? Does the fact that something in cake #1 and #2 went
wrong make the effort that went into them less important?
> I also believe accomplishment is a sort of feedback mechanism for
> self-identity. If we do nothing from day to day, it become difficult to
> track personal evolution:
>
> "If I was this person, who am I now?"
> "If the people I know are not the people I know now, how can I be the same
> person I was?"
I agree... the things we do *are* a part of who we are. My point is *who* is
defining that? As an artist, you have the choice of making art that conveys
your message, offering up a little bit of your soul on a plate, risking the
possibility that people may hate it. Or you can make tepid, accessible works
in colur schemes that will match peoples sofas and make a lot of money. Now
granted, the two aren't mutually exclusive; some people can make great art and
make money at it, and some people really do have landscapes in muted pastels
as the part of their soul aching to get onto canvas. But it still begs the
question "WHO are you doing it for?" I'm more concerned about Charlotte
judging herself based on other people's reactions to her accomplishments than
to her own sense of fulfillment and satisfaction at having completed a project
that says something about her.
> I think the question to tackle is "How do we define who we are?" ad once
> this is answered then we can try to attempt the question:
>
> "What is keeping you from valuing yourself just for yourself?"
>
> b/c it's tough to define yourself without throwing in "what you do" into
> the mix. IMO
Oh, no, I agree... my point is more about defining yourself to yourself, and
not to other people. It's about figuring out whether you do art for you, the
masses, or to feel good about yourself because the masses like what you've
done.
Sheryl
> >I want to be able to call someone up on a friday night and say "hey, let's
> >start a zine!" and have them say "fuck, cool! I have just the idea!..."
>
> See...that's a really difficult thing to do. A magazine takes capital
> to get started.
A magazine yes. A zine, nuh-uh. If you've got a computer and a printer, or
access to either, you can make a zine. If you've got scissors and glue, you
can make a zine. Some of the best zines I've ever come across have a budget of
absolutely nothing. One of my favourites to this day is a zine called "Snacks"
which is a whole zine (50 pages or so!!) of copies of missing pet posters.
People take them down and send them to this guy and he puts them together. He
gets stuff from all over the world now. The cost of the zine pays for paper,
copying and postage.
I've worked on lots of zines, including my own, and none of them had any
start-up capital. And in fact, anyone that tried to do something like that and
them showed up at a zine fair trying to fit in with the punk-rawk DIY cut and
pasters would get laughed out of the place. That's not to say that some zines
don't get popular and go glossy (BUST, fer instance), but for a start-up, you
need whatever it costs for a ream of paper, some staples and maybe some glue.
Zines are the quickest and easiest form of self-expression and are still
gaining in popularity. Even if the quality of writing is similiar, they are
still taken more seriously than a personal web page, and they're easier to put
together.
>Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>> I want to put my heart into something and have it some up good, and have
>> people support me, and tell me it's good. I want to help with something
>> that takes all of my personal resources. I don't know...
>
>Chuck, I think you need to look at your *reasons* for wanting/needing this
>support. Is it for attention or self-esteem? Is it for the camaraderie in
>working on something together? If you have it in you to create, then that
>should be enough, the process and the message should be satisfactory. If you
>find yourself needing something more beyond that, it might be an idea to take
>a look at *why* you're not happy with just the process and the finished
>product.
I agree. Your projects - who do you do them for? What's your
ultimate goal? To be able to sit back, smile and be proud of yourself
for what you've done and created all by yourself, because it makes
-you- happy? Or do you create -for- others? I know it can be both,
but think about each separately: You've finished a project all by
yourself, and you're happy with it. If there were NO people around
you could show it off too, would you still be as satisfied? Or if you
created something that you thought was damn good, and others didn't
like it, would it then change your mind? Would you then decide maybe
it really is a piece of shit? After all, popular opinion doesn't make
something fact. Personally, if I do something that makes me feel
good, or that I'm really proud of, it doesn't matter to me if anyone
else likes it, b/c it's -mine-. I'm definitely one that spends a lot
of time trying to please others, but at the end of the day, I'm the
one that has to sit and look at my creations. So if you're happy with
what you do, you've done something right. You don't necessarily need
people to like or love what you do/create; you just need them to
support you in your decision to do what makes you happy.
~Stellar
"Easier is what lands you in 'hot water'.
Take the tougher path,
suffer like a good Goth Grrl."
-The Mad Scribbler
I think you're thinking about it differently than I do... I work on
things because it's what I want to do with my life, what I want to have as
my body or work when I die, so that I don't look back ont he whole thing
as a waste of time.
But it is phenominally difficult to work alone. To work when nobody but
you cares about what you're doing. It doesn't mean I am only doing what I
do for others... it just means it's hard to stay focussed or hard to stay
motivated without them. I mean, that's life. People don't live in caves.
People interact because people feed off each other ina million different
ways, creatively among them.
...
gotta run...
etc,
>Sheryl Kirby <she...@stainedproductions.com> Bellowed at the Firmament:
>
>> Why do you think this is? What is keeping you from valuing yourself
>> just for yourself, without a list of "things I've done"? I'm not
>> knocking you for it, mind you, it's pretty much the basis of our
>> society. No one ever asks someone "Who are you? Tell me about
>> yourself," they ask, "What do you do?" I'm not saying it's bad to
>> accomplish things, but I always wonder how we all got sucked into
>> judging each other (and ourselves) by what we've accomplished, insead
>> of who we are.
>
>I think this largely has to do with how we define ourselves <who we
>are>. In a way, we start out as a "tabla Rasa". What we accomplish fills
>this page. If I were to ask you "Who are you?" you could give me your
>name, but where does the conversation go from there if I am to learn
>more about you?
>
I have a list. It's like my own personal netscrape (but shorter) I ask of
practically everyone I'm getting to know. It doesn't tell me _everything_,
but its a nice place to start. And it's become strangely ritual like...my
current friends, when they're introducing me to someone will beg for me to
ask the questions.
k
--
You had to be there.
>On 5 May 2001 20:27:43 GMT, bi...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charlotte
>Ashley) wrote:
>
>>I'm finding it very, very difficult to accomplish anything unsupported.
>>Phenominally difficult. I can barely describe. I work my ass off for
>>three twenty hour days ona project, and come up with a framework I'm
>>proud of, to have my friends say "eh. huh. cool." and go back to
>>their video games. They ask to see nothing, add nothing, give their
>>opinions on nothing. (No, I say "well... what do you think?" and they
>>say "good.")
>
>I hate that :). Good means *absolutely nothing* when it comes to
>criticism. IT can mean bloody well anything: 'I like it. I'm too dim
>to judge. I hate it but I like you. I haven't even listened.'
>
I spent an hour tossing that complaint around last week. Wrote a poem about
it too. The problem is, for me anyway, that I want to know the shape my
thoughts are making in their brain. And I can't get that. They can't tell
me that _ever_ really. All they can do is hand me back other thoughts to
make shapes in my brain, that I can't express to them.
>Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>
I'm not getting your posts dammit.
>> I have a tendancy to rate value by accomplishment - potential or
>> realized. My value especially. What I am, how I matter, what I'm
>> worth is equal to what I can produce, what I can do. Every story I
>> write and every idea I have contributes to my overall worth as a
>> person. An inability to accomplish anything equates a lack of value.
>
Me too. Halfway anyway. The other half is whether or not I'm enjoying
myself.
>> I'm finding it very, very difficult to accomplish anything
>> unsupported. Phenominally difficult. I can barely describe. I work
Yes. Most people suck.
>> On one level, I understand that they have other things they care
>> about, that my projects aren't things that interest them.... but I
>> cannot begin to describe how much I would *give* to have a single
>> friend who doesn't just feign interest because we are friendly, but
>> who genuinely believe in my ideas, want to help out and want to pitch
>> in. I want a single friend who will be a co-conspirator, someone who
>> will be as enthousiastic as I am, and help, and add.
>
*raises hand*
Well. I'm not really volunteering for best buddy status. Nor will I
guarantee I'll always be interested in everything you toss out. Nor will I
praise it if I think its crap. But... I'm always looking for co-
conspirators.
Because I'm always having ideas. And only very rarely do they see full
birth to the cold light of reality. Mainly because a) I lack experience
and/or resources and b) I lack support. I start mailing lists to try to get
a bunch of writers together who all need support and guess what? I'm the
only one posting writing. *sigh*
Go look at this: http://www.placeless.com. (It's mine. All mine. Ok. So it
doesn't look like much yet. But that blankness? It smells like _Potential_.
It's destiny is to be something to fill _exactly_ this need you're
complaining of. And goddammit its going to work if it kills me. Wanna
help?)