50 Illustrations: Number One, Toadstool and "light" Fairies
AOK
I hadn't been able to work at home due to depression and stress and the
ever present ex husband. I am developing a theme with toadstools and
fairies. I did a dark one today (mushroom with three dark fairies in it,
like fallen angels) and my supervisor said "no". I protested and tried
to tell her about the gothic subculture, but she wouldn't hear it. She
wants my drawings to be "cute". I said "I don't do cute, we are going to
have to find a happy medium". We could work with that. She said my
drawings won't sell if they are dark, they need to be marketable to a 12
year old!
I traced a photograph I took of a mushroom noticed by my priest (he is
a mycologist) on a parish hike on Mt. Tam, and then copied that tracing
onto paper. Then started teaching myself how to draw fairies from the
book How To Draw and Paint Fairies by Linda Ravenscroft. A co-worker
brought it in and my supervisor encouraged me to utilize it. I am going
to have to put some light fairies, read non-sexual, in the drawing. I
showed my supervisor a drawing of the dark fairy in the book and she
associated darkness with sexuality (the fairy was wear a red and black
leotard cut down to the breastbone almost with nice sensual detail on
the thighs and had black hair and briars around her arms.)
I am disappointed I can't do gothic pictures for my commercial art as a
newbie to the scene. Later.
Heraldo
> I finally got back to work after three grueling weeks of family issues.
> I hadn't been able to work at home due to depression and stress and the
> ever present ex husband. I am developing a theme with toadstools and
> fairies. I did a dark one today (mushroom with three dark fairies in it,
> like fallen angels)
Although, I do not have any problem with your drawings, I must say
that the Fallen Angels I know are not fairies. Hope you become happy
again.
Gabriel
AOK
> On Mar 5, 5:30�pm, AOK <amkemail2006-goo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I finally got back to work after three grueling weeks of family issues.
>> I hadn't been able to work at home due to depression and stress and the
>> ever present ex husband. I am developing a theme with toadstools and
>> fairies. I did a dark one today (mushroom with three dark fairies in it,
>> like fallen angels)
>
> Although, I do not have any problem with your drawings, I must say
> that the Fallen Angels I know are not fairies. Hope you become happy
> again.
>
> Gabriel
>
>
disagreed with me as well. It is very hard to make it as a Christian
goth artist
who is fascinated with darkness and sexuality. I need to start searching
for that book we had at work yesterday on how to draw fairies. I am
frustrated I can't draw dark fairies for my commercial art. I felt *so*
resistant yesterday to being told what to do! At any rate, I need to
draw today. Its like should I exercise? (I was all set to go for a hike
this morning when I noticed I left my cd player at home. I can't deal
with my thoughts right now and need music to distract me and the radio
has too many damn commercials.) So I went back home to get my cd player
knowing full well once confronted with the laundry that needs to be put
away and the apartment that needs daily tidying I would miss my morning
hike.
Trying to make it as a commercial artist is a lot harder then I could
have ever imagined. I finally got what I wanted, what many *dream* of,
membership in a production orientated artists collective with a business
manager and a market. My
supervisor reminds me every time I go to work that it took all of them
time to get going, that she even rejected her own art work at first. I
did this
really cool one yesterday as I stated and she rejected it because it had
a dark theme to it. She told me to use my imagination. I could not
believe it. I had been suppressing my imagination because all that was
coming out in my art were my psycho-sexual bondage fantasies about my
retired
bishop. Then my supervisor tells me to use my imagination. So I unlocked
the door and out came the dark fairies like that moth that likes to flit
around my bedroom. I dare say that repressing my
imagination is part of what is making me very emotionally sick.
Are you part of the Wet Canvas community by chance? Goth Net? They have
an artists community on goth net. I am starting to reach out to the
artists there. The ones I looked at yesterday are 22 and 19. That was
discouraging as well. If you know of any commercial goth artists, please
ask them to join this group. My job developer wants me to develop my own
micro business. I know I can do my own art once I get off the ground in
our business. Then I can go as dark as I want.
I am also a photographer and I want to go to a SM or goth club as a
photographer, but I have never even been to a SM or goth club as a patron!
You know I was socializing with the people on the bus yesterday and the
guy behind me said I seem happy. I was *brutally* honest with him.
Expressing my cynicism, irony, bitterness, sarcasm, satire and brutal
honesty make me happy. The guy remarked on my bitterness, we were
discussing my marriage I broke. Most guys notice my bitterness right
away. So I asked what's more bitter than bitter? I think cynicism, right?
Since you responded I am going to take this as a sign, although my
retired bishop told me only the faithless required a sign, and try to do
some work and post about. If I could use this group to discipline myself to
do 50 drawings I will be up and running. Everyone pretty much agrees
this group *will* help me with my art. I am here for the art and the
music, and the literature. My co-worker yesterday asked me if I have
ever read H.P. Lovecraft. Not that I know of. And my supervisor told me
to read Stolen Child to find about changelings.
At any rate, I just got back in with Wet Canvas, the cyber community for
artists. I had been ignoring it for a whole year out of discouragement.
I am determined to fight through this depression and get back on my
feet as an artist. I have been fighting it for half my life and I
finally became willing to take medication to treat it because of the
love my beloved retired bishop showed to me by admitting his own
depression. He did so publicly last year. He is still my inspiration.
Olympiada
enigma
news:ogvrc.s...@news.alt.net:
>> The Christian understanding is that fairies are angels. My
> supervisor disagreed with me as well. It is very hard to
> make it as a Christian goth artist
what Christian groups understand fairies as angels? please be
specific, as i don't know of any.
also, why do you identify as "goth"? please be specific.
> who is fascinated with darkness and sexuality. I need to
> start searching for that book we had at work yesterday on
> how to draw fairies. I am frustrated I can't draw dark
> fairies for my commercial art. I felt *so* resistant
> yesterday to being told what to do!
there is no reason you can't draw "dark" fairies as
commercial art, but you do need to realize that the buyers of
that type of art are a very small niche market. your
supervisor, who is working at getting you actual work, is
going to discourage anything that isn't likely to be mass
market. that doesn't mean you can't draw what *you* want
outside of the job training place. as far as selling that type
of work, look for sci-fi/fantasy conventions with art shows.
> At any rate, I need to
> draw today. Its like should I exercise? (I was all set to
> go for a hike this morning when I noticed I left my cd
> player at home. I can't deal with my thoughts right now and
> need music to distract me and the radio has too many damn
> commercials.) So I went back home to get my cd player
> knowing full well once confronted with the laundry that
> needs to be put away and the apartment that needs daily
> tidying I would miss my morning hike.
huh. i'm really good at ignoring messes & laundry. you must
need more practice. where's the laundry & mess going to go?
it'll be there when you get back you know.
> Trying to make it as a commercial artist is a lot harder
> then I could
> have ever imagined. I finally got what I wanted, what many
> *dream* of, membership in a production orientated artists
> collective with a business manager and a market. My
> supervisor reminds me every time I go to work that it took
> all of them time to get going, that she even rejected her
> own art work at first.
a production oriented artist's collective? is that as horrid
as it sounds? i can just imagine a roomful of resentful
artists painting "happy trees & mountains".
making a living as a real artist is hard work. my ex is just
starting to get decent paying jobs after 27 *years* of trying
to break into illustration. yay! pretty soon i can kick him
out ;)
> I did this
> really cool one yesterday as I stated and she rejected it
> because it had a dark theme to it. She told me to use my
> imagination. I could not believe it. I had been suppressing
> my imagination because all that was coming out in my art
> were my psycho-sexual bondage fantasies about my retired
> bishop. Then my supervisor tells me to use my imagination.
guess that wasn't the imagination she wanted you to use...
> So I unlocked the door and out came the dark fairies like
> that moth that likes to flit around my bedroom. I dare say
> that repressing my imagination is part of what is making me
> very emotionally sick.
so, draw the stuff you want at home.
>
> I know I can do my own art
> once I get off the ground in our business. Then I can go as
> dark as I want.
well, no. you can go as dark as you can find buyers for. you
can do whatever pleases you anytime, but that doesn't mean
anyone else wants it or will buy it. if you hope to be self-
supporting as an artist, you have to paint the crap that
sells. that's just a fact of life.
> I am also a photographer and I want to go to a SM or goth
> club as a photographer, but I have never even been to a SM
> or goth club as a patron!
and no SM or goth club wants photographers there. i don't
know of any that allow it.
> Everyone pretty much
> agrees this group *will* help me with my art.
everyone who? please be specific.
lee
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson
AOK
> AOK <amkemail2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:ogvrc.s...@news.alt.net:
>
>>> The Christian understanding is that fairies are angels. My
>> supervisor disagreed with me as well. It is very hard to
>> make it as a Christian goth artist
>
> what Christian groups understand fairies as angels? please be
> specific, as i don't know of any.
> also, why do you identify as "goth"? please be specific.
>
soul, personality and mind. I identify as goth because I like gothic
music, gothic art and gothic literature. I just got back in touch with
the local gothic scene. There are a couple of web communities for the SF
Bay Area goth scene and I shall be posting event notifications as they
come up. You have to remember that my high school friends are goth. It
seems you doubt my authenticity and think I am a poseur. If you do, I am
sorry for that.
>> who is fascinated with darkness and sexuality. I need to
>> start searching for that book we had at work yesterday on
>> how to draw fairies. I am frustrated I can't draw dark
>> fairies for my commercial art. I felt *so* resistant
>> yesterday to being told what to do!
>
> there is no reason you can't draw "dark" fairies as
> commercial art, but you do need to realize that the buyers of
> that type of art are a very small niche market. your
> supervisor, who is working at getting you actual work, is
> going to discourage anything that isn't likely to be mass
> market. that doesn't mean you can't draw what *you* want
> outside of the job training place. as far as selling that type
> of work, look for sci-fi/fantasy conventions with art shows.
>
Dark fairies will not sell to that market. That is what my supervisor
told me. My co-workers are already selling their work. I don't know why
its so hard for people to believe that I already have work. I have been
producing art since early childhood. My mother is an artist. This is why
I have this job. I am talented enough to produce art that will sell. I
am back on track with my productivity. I don't know why so many people
in this group doubt me. Its really frustrating. My supervisor told me to
ignore my critics, as did my co-workers.
Wet Canvas has a fantasy artists' forum and I already joined it a year
or so ago. That missionary who I talk about, his sister introduced me to
Wet Canvas. She is also an artist. He introduced me to her. Anyways,
then I abandoned it. I have returned as of today in my legal name. I am
ready to make it as an artist. There will be no nym for me in the
artistic community, but my real name.
>> At any rate, I need to
>> draw today. Its like should I exercise? (I was all set to
>> go for a hike this morning when I noticed I left my cd
>> player at home. I can't deal with my thoughts right now and
>> need music to distract me and the radio has too many damn
>> commercials.) So I went back home to get my cd player
>> knowing full well once confronted with the laundry that
>> needs to be put away and the apartment that needs daily
>> tidying I would miss my morning hike.
>
> huh. i'm really good at ignoring messes & laundry. you must
> need more practice. where's the laundry & mess going to go?
> it'll be there when you get back you know.
>
Yes, I know. I have also been ignoring the mail and not communicating
with my sponsor enough. My life has become unmanageable. Remember my ex
husband is actively acting out his marijuana addiction and in my life.
It has made my life unmanageable. I am powerless over him. He spent the
night twice in the past week against my will. My daughter is very angry
with me for divorcing him. My life is unmanageable I say again, I am
powerless over him. The mess is with the different systems I am dealing
with right now regarding child care, welfare, Medicare, elementary
school, community center, summer camp, sponsor, fellowship, church, work
and more, as well as the practicing addict in my life.
>> Trying to make it as a commercial artist is a lot harder
>> then I could
>> have ever imagined. I finally got what I wanted, what many
>> *dream* of, membership in a production orientated artists
>> collective with a business manager and a market. My
>> supervisor reminds me every time I go to work that it took
>> all of them time to get going, that she even rejected her
>> own art work at first.
>
> a production oriented artist's collective? is that as horrid
> as it sounds? i can just imagine a roomful of resentful
> artists painting "happy trees & mountains".
No not at all. There are only four of us. The supervisor is an art
therapist. One of my co-workers is drawing butterflies and the other one
fairies. It is so ironic because this ROCOR archpriest told me to think
of butterflies last time I spoke to him on the phone. He got disturbed
by the erotic content of my artwork on my Flickr site and ran away.
Priests can't look at that kind of thing you know. I think that same
thing happened to my retired bishop, he got disturbed by the erotic
nature of my thoughts and cut me off.
> making a living as a real artist is hard work. my ex is just
> starting to get decent paying jobs after 27 *years* of trying
> to break into illustration. yay! pretty soon i can kick him
> out ;)
>
Wow. Your ex still lives with you? I gave mine the boot May 15, 2005 and
he is now technically homeless. He spent the night in a sleeping bag on
the floor in our daughter's room much to her delight thrice last week,
last time was Sunday night. She is furious with me for divorcing him, as
is he. I am in hell right now and so much want to be in another
relationship. I think I am depressed due to the lack of romantic partner
but oh well. He has a friend with benefits. I have nothing, by my own
choice.
>> I did this
>> really cool one yesterday as I stated and she rejected it
>> because it had a dark theme to it. She told me to use my
>> imagination. I could not believe it. I had been suppressing
>> my imagination because all that was coming out in my art
>> were my psycho-sexual bondage fantasies about my retired
>> bishop. Then my supervisor tells me to use my imagination.
>
> guess that wasn't the imagination she wanted you to use...
>
Well it had to come out first. I mean like I said, it is like the moth
that sometimes flits around my bedroom. I am still very fascinated with
the darkness. My priest warns me against this. It comes in confession
*all the time*. I have a very hard conversion I am going through. I used
to be a pagan. I even thought about joining alt.pagan today but then I
went and looked at the subjects and was not interested.
>> So I unlocked the door and out came the dark fairies like
>> that moth that likes to flit around my bedroom. I dare say
>> that repressing my imagination is part of what is making me
>> very emotionally sick.
>
> so, draw the stuff you want at home.
Well I can't afford to right now. I have to produce 50 illustrations I
have decided. I have to work at home. I can't work at home though due to
all the other shit I am dealing with so I drew a picture in the meeting
today while we were discussing the fifth step. I talked about hurt
pride. Tenshi's comment about the cookie's hurt feelings really got to me.
>> I know I can do my own art
>> once I get off the ground in our business. Then I can go as
>> dark as I want.
>
> well, no. you can go as dark as you can find buyers for. you
> can do whatever pleases you anytime, but that doesn't mean
> anyone else wants it or will buy it. if you hope to be self-
> supporting as an artist, you have to paint the crap that
> sells. that's just a fact of life.
>
Yes, I know. I am not painting yet but working in pencil and ink. I have
not taught myself to paint beyond water color. I started learning oils
but got discouraged. I used to paint with a bisexual female friend of
mine in high school. We used to take baths together. I may say more
about her later. My painting is extremely tied up with my sexuality.
That is the problem. I have sublimated my sexuality into my art, and my
sexuality has grown even more darker than I was a teenager. I have
always been into bondage but now fantasizing about an Orthodox bishop?
That's over the top.
>> I am also a photographer and I want to go to a SM or goth
>> club as a photographer, but I have never even been to a SM
>> or goth club as a patron!
>
> and no SM or goth club wants photographers there. i don't
> know of any that allow it.
>
Right. I meant with permission. You didn't think I would do that without
permission do you? You do know I am experienced and respected and
admired Orthodox photographer and that my photographs are used by my
diocese, right? They are all over websites and in commemoration books.
>> Everyone pretty much
>> agrees this group *will* help me with my art.
>
> everyone who? please be specific.
>
> lee
Why? I am afraid to name names. You are one of them, Renate, Jennie, and
others, whoever that guy was that just responded to me, Geraldo. I don't
entirely trust you lee. I think you are proud to be bragging about
knowing how to read at age 3. You reflect my own pride back to me and I
don't like that. I need to STFU about my own intellectual gifts. I don't
want to alienate people. So I thank you for that lesson.
Olympiada
Troia
>...
> huh. i'm really good at ignoring messes & laundry. you must
> need more practice. where's the laundry & mess going to go?
> it'll be there when you get back you know.
While I understand where you are coming from, it may be wise for some
people to stay on top of things like that & not let them build up to the
point they are overwhelming; this tends to be a sort of discipline
especially important to people in recovery, and also especially
important when one has a child to care for and may already have provoked
some concern related to parenting from social services agencies. In
addition, for many people, having a routine that includes their basic
housework is important to their developing a more sane existence overall.
> a production oriented artist's collective? is that as horrid
> as it sounds? i can just imagine a roomful of resentful
> artists painting "happy trees & mountains".
Think "greeting cards"; that is where a lot of people believe they can
develop a business. And once in a blue moon, it actually does work.
-- Troia
enigma
news:ohfei.m...@news.alt.net:
> enigma wrote:
>> AOK <amkemail2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:ogvrc.s...@news.alt.net:
>>
>>>> The Christian understanding is that fairies are angels.
>>>> My
>>> supervisor disagreed with me as well. It is very hard to
>>> make it as a Christian goth artist
>>
>> what Christian groups understand fairies as angels?
>> please be
>> specific, as i don't know of any.
>> also, why do you identify as "goth"? please be specific.
>>
> Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood.
so, that's *one* Orthodox group, right? what about your
diocese? how do the members of your church see it?
anyway, that leaves a *lot* of Christians & non-Christians that
don't see fairies as angels. :)
> I identify as goth
> because of my soul, personality and mind. I identify as
> goth because I like gothic music, gothic art and gothic
> literature. I just got back in touch with the local gothic
> scene. There are a couple of web communities for the SF Bay
> Area goth scene and I shall be posting event notifications
> as they come up. You have to remember that my high school
> friends are goth. It seems you doubt my authenticity and
> think I am a poseur. If you do, I am sorry for that.
since i have no idea who your high school friends are/were, i
really can't remember that. i live on the other coast, remember?
:)
i've been to SF... it was when Michael was working out there. i
had blue & green hair, so i could be a mermaid model. blue &
green over red are... odd.
i was on a couple of the mailing lists then, but that was a
while ago.
>> there is no reason you can't draw "dark" fairies as
>> commercial art, but you do need to realize that the buyers
>> of that type of art are a very small niche market. your
>> supervisor, who is working at getting you actual work, is
>> going to discourage anything that isn't likely to be mass
>> market. that doesn't mean you can't draw what *you* want
>> outside of the job training place. as far as selling that
>> type of work, look for sci-fi/fantasy conventions with art
>> shows.
>>
> Ok, I think I am not being clear. I have actual work. I
> have a market. Dark fairies will not sell to that market.
right, but you can cultivate other markets at the same time. i
was just giving you an idea where the things you *want* to draw
might sell.
> That is what my supervisor told me. My co-workers are
> already selling their work. I don't know why its so hard
> for people to believe that I already have work. I have been
> producing art since early childhood. My mother is an
> artist. This is why I have this job. I am talented enough
> to produce art that will sell. I am back on track with my
> productivity. I don't know why so many people in this group
> doubt me. Its really frustrating. My supervisor told me to
> ignore my critics, as did my co-workers.
well, you don't have the best history here.
>> huh. i'm really good at ignoring messes & laundry. you
>> must
>> need more practice. where's the laundry & mess going to
>> go? it'll be there when you get back you know.
>>
> Yes, I know. I have also been ignoring the mail and not
> communicating with my sponsor enough. My life has become
> unmanageable. Remember my ex husband is actively acting out
> his marijuana addiction and in my life. It has made my life
> unmanageable. I am powerless over him. He spent the night
> twice in the past week against my will. My daughter is very
> angry with me for divorcing him. My life is unmanageable I
> say again, I am powerless over him.
no you aren't. maybe you don't know it yet though. you *can*
say "no, you can't stay here". of course he'll try to guilt you,
but you don't have to accept his guilt trip. you only do because
you're still angry at yourself for leaving & grieving over the
lost relationship.
and, yes, your daughter is going to be angry about the divorce.
have you tried councilling for her? does she have appropriate
ways to work through her anger & grief?
>> a production oriented artist's collective? is that as
>> horrid
>> as it sounds? i can just imagine a roomful of resentful
>> artists painting "happy trees & mountains".
> No not at all. There are only four of us. The supervisor is
> an art therapist. One of my co-workers is drawing
> butterflies and the other one fairies. It is so ironic
> because this ROCOR archpriest told me to think of
> butterflies last time I spoke to him on the phone. He got
> disturbed by the erotic content of my artwork on my Flickr
> site and ran away. Priests can't look at that kind of thing
> you know. I think that same thing happened to my retired
> bishop, he got disturbed by the erotic nature of my
> thoughts and cut me off.
not everything is appropriate for all venues. you need to
respect other's feelings when discussing or showing those types
of work.
>> making a living as a real artist is hard work. my ex is
>> just
>> starting to get decent paying jobs after 27 *years* of
>> trying to break into illustration. yay! pretty soon i can
>> kick him out ;)
>>
> Wow. Your ex still lives with you? I gave mine the boot May
> 15, 2005 and he is now technically homeless. He spent the
> night in a sleeping bag on the floor in our daughter's room
> much to her delight thrice last week, last time was Sunday
> night.
unfortunately, yes, he does. i don't dislike him. i just never
should have married him. we get along ok as friends. i'd just
really like to have my parlor back! i need the room.
> She is furious with me for divorcing him, as is he.
well, yeah. what did you expect? especially a 6 year old, who
really isn't going to understand *why* daddy is away & then
back... and you just can't go telling a child her daddy is an
addict.
she needs somewhere she can safely vent.
> I am in hell right now and so much want to be in another
> relationship. I think I am depressed due to the lack of
> romantic partner but oh well.
> I have nothing, by my own choice.
probably a good choice too. nothing like a rebound relationship
to screw you over... meaning you want to get over the former one
completely before getting into something else.
>> guess that wasn't the imagination she wanted you to
>> use...
>>
> Well it had to come out first. I mean like I said, it is
> like the moth that sometimes flits around my bedroom. I am
> still very fascinated with the darkness. My priest warns me
> against this. It comes in confession *all the time*. I have
> a very hard conversion I am going through. I used to be a
> pagan.
have you really considered if this conversion is right for you?
is this *really* what you need?
>> well, no. you can go as dark as you can find buyers for.
>> you
>> can do whatever pleases you anytime, but that doesn't mean
>> anyone else wants it or will buy it. if you hope to be
>> self- supporting as an artist, you have to paint the crap
>> that sells. that's just a fact of life.
>>
> Yes, I know. I am not painting yet but working in pencil
> and ink. I have not taught myself to paint beyond water
> color.
pen & ink, colored with watercolors is a very nice form of
illustration.
here's some of Michael's work:
http://www.bpib.com/illustra2/kaluta.htm
the more recent stuff is toward the bottom of the page (i'm one
of the models for a couple of things. i'm so in awe of his work,
that it shocks me that i'd possibly be a model)
> I started learning oils but got discouraged. I used
> to paint with a bisexual female friend of mine in high
> school. We used to take baths together. I may say more
> about her later. My painting is extremely tied up with my
> sexuality. That is the problem. I have sublimated my
> sexuality into my art, and my sexuality has grown even more
> darker than I was a teenager. I have always been into
> bondage but now fantasizing about an Orthodox bishop?
> That's over the top.
that's a really stream of consciousness paragraph... IMO, oils
are overrated. they're also toxic, so you don't want them around
a child. the artists i know that use oils have studios separate
from thier living spaces for their painting.
> Right. I meant with permission. You didn't think I would do
> that without permission do you? You do know I am
> experienced and respected and admired Orthodox photographer
> and that my photographs are used by my diocese, right? They
> are all over websites and in commemoration books.
yeah, i know. that doesn't mean that clubs would welcome you
though. consider that the patrons just may not want anyone
outside of the club to know... it's quite different than nature
photography or even the church photography.
>>> Everyone pretty much
>>> agrees this group *will* help me with my art.
>>
>> everyone who? please be specific.
>
> Why? I am afraid to name names. You are one of them,
> Renate, Jennie, and others, whoever that guy was that just
> responded to me, Geraldo. I don't entirely trust you lee. I
> think you are proud to be bragging about knowing how to
> read at age 3.
not really. hyperlexia is autistic spectrum. it's not something
to brag about.
> You reflect my own pride back to me and I
> don't like that. I need to STFU about my own intellectual
> gifts. I don't want to alienate people. So I thank you for
> that lesson.
well, you're welcome, but pride isn't really one of my deadly
sins. :) i think sloth is my biggest sin.
AOK
> AOK <amkemail2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:ohfei.m...@news.alt.net:
>
>> enigma wrote:
>>> AOK <amkemail2...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>> news:ogvrc.s...@news.alt.net:
>>>
>>>>> The Christian understanding is that fairies are angels.
>>>>> My
>>>> supervisor disagreed with me as well. It is very hard to
>>>> make it as a Christian goth artist
>>> what Christian groups understand fairies as angels?
>>> please be
>>> specific, as i don't know of any.
>>> also, why do you identify as "goth"? please be specific.
>>>
>> Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood.
>
> so, that's *one* Orthodox group, right? what about your
> diocese? how do the members of your church see it?
> anyway, that leaves a *lot* of Christians & non-Christians that
> don't see fairies as angels. :)
>
you many years. Yes that is one Orthodox group, a monastic brotherhood.
Also Father Seraphim (Rose) of Blessed Memory sees fairies as angels if
I remember correctly. Listen, when you say my Church, you mean my
diocese. Frankly, I don't care. I would prefer to see fairies as
fairies, so I will.
BTW Please don't listen to Troia all the time regarding me. She is
insane, at times, in regards to *me*.
>> I identify as goth
>> because of my soul, personality and mind. I identify as
>> goth because I like gothic music, gothic art and gothic
>> literature. I just got back in touch with the local gothic
>> scene. There are a couple of web communities for the SF Bay
>> Area goth scene and I shall be posting event notifications
>> as they come up. You have to remember that my high school
>> friends are goth. It seems you doubt my authenticity and
>> think I am a poseur. If you do, I am sorry for that.
>
> since i have no idea who your high school friends are/were, i
> really can't remember that. i live on the other coast, remember?
> :)
Man put it well, my defense system is more impenetrable than NORAD.
However, I will let you in. My high school friends include a bisexual
Eurasian Bondage a Go Go dancer, a black gay Christian who I am in
weekly if not daily contact with, a young couple consisting of another
Eurasian pagan and her boyfriend who had a baby and dropped out. All
artists. I am still in touch with many of them. The aforementioned
Dutch perhaps bisexual woman artist who now has twins and lives in
Humboldt County if I recall. The German naturopathic doctor who lives in
WA with her husband, his child and their newborn, she recently sent me
photographs I haven't even looked at. My internet security friend who
lives in MA who I stay in touch with through our My Space pages. I
created one just for her.
I really apologize for not trusting you. With jerks like Ty and ghod
knows who else laughing at me I have to be extremely cautious in this
group.
> i've been to SF... it was when Michael was working out there. i
> had blue & green hair, so i could be a mermaid model. blue &
> green over red are... odd.
hair. I have long thick brunette curly/wavy hair. I don't think blue and
green hair would look good on me.
BTW I love Mermaids too. I got this really cool mermaid book for my
daughter from the clinic. It has dark mermaids in it. I love dark
fantasy creatures. I was thinking about doing mermaids next. I have
photographs from my trips to Muir Beach with my daughter and her friend
and his mother so I could use those for the reality and then incorporate
the mermaids for the fantasy. It is amazing you mentioned them because I
started thinking them after my last message to you.
> i was on a couple of the mailing lists then, but that was a
> while ago.
>
touch with them before I ended up in alt.gothic. People don't believe
me, but that's their problem. People like TyMeDwn1st think I am a goth
poseur. They are the poseurs. TyMeDwn1st has admitted that she is not a
member of this group. She has come here specifically to net cop and
harass and laugh at me.
>>> there is no reason you can't draw "dark" fairies as
>>> commercial art, but you do need to realize that the buyers
>>> of that type of art are a very small niche market. your
>>> supervisor, who is working at getting you actual work, is
>>> going to discourage anything that isn't likely to be mass
>>> market. that doesn't mean you can't draw what *you* want
>>> outside of the job training place. as far as selling that
>>> type of work, look for sci-fi/fantasy conventions with art
>>> shows.
>>>
>> Ok, I think I am not being clear. I have actual work. I
>> have a market. Dark fairies will not sell to that market.
>
> right, but you can cultivate other markets at the same time. i
> was just giving you an idea where the things you *want* to draw
> might sell.
>
illustrations completed, I might look into the micro business. My job
developer had a business consultant come into our artist's collective
and give a presentation. Help is just a phone call away. I may call my
job developer and tell her about my change of heart regarding the
microbusiness. I will tell her a friend in the alt.gothic group that
reported me to her helped me turn my attitude around. I think she will
pleased to hear that. She was quite concerned about how some people were
treating me here and told me to be careful that they were not my
friends. In addition another one of my job developers told me about a
self employment class for artists *and* sent me a web link regarding
that. I made it clear to both of them I wasn't ready yet, but I may be
getting ready. This is all so incredible. A dream come true.
>> That is what my supervisor told me. My co-workers are
>> already selling their work. I don't know why its so hard
>> for people to believe that I already have work. I have been
>> producing art since early childhood. My mother is an
>> artist. This is why I have this job. I am talented enough
>> to produce art that will sell. I am back on track with my
>> productivity. I don't know why so many people in this group
>> doubt me. Its really frustrating. My supervisor told me to
>> ignore my critics, as did my co-workers.
>
> well, you don't have the best history here.
>
>>> huh. i'm really good at ignoring messes & laundry. you
>>> must
>>> need more practice. where's the laundry & mess going to
>>> go? it'll be there when you get back you know.
>>>
>> Yes, I know. I have also been ignoring the mail and not
>> communicating with my sponsor enough. My life has become
>> unmanageable. Remember my ex husband is actively acting out
>> his marijuana addiction and in my life. It has made my life
>> unmanageable. I am powerless over him. He spent the night
>> twice in the past week against my will. My daughter is very
>> angry with me for divorcing him. My life is unmanageable I
>> say again, I am powerless over him.
>
> no you aren't. maybe you don't know it yet though. you *can*
> say "no, you can't stay here". of course he'll try to guilt you,
> but you don't have to accept his guilt trip. you only do because
> you're still angry at yourself for leaving & grieving over the
> lost relationship.
been working with my counselor since I gave him the boot to keep him
out. Now that he is technically homeless it is harder than ever. My rule
is he can not come in the apartment and yet I keep breaking it. He spent
the night *three* times last week. The first time was against my will
and without my knowledge. The second time was at my invitation because
he had our daughter out past her bedtime and I needed to get to church
early in the morning and I knew she would be tired and I needed his
help. The third time I gave him a choice, that was Sunday night. Either
spend the night and take her to school in the morning or leave. He chose
to stay, he was tired and she was upset that I told him to leave.
Basically this is hell on earth, as I said. I would love to have a
romantic partner but I am committed to not getting into another romantic
relationship until Fall 2009 so I will just have to suffer.
Being angry at oneself is self destructive. Sunday night a man after the
meeting told me not to beat myself up. That is the same thing that
missionary told me in Spring 2005 when he was supporting me through my
decision to divorce through 11,000 miles away.
The other day I realized I felt guilt. There is healthy guilt and there
is toxic guilt.
I am not sure if I am grieving over the lost relationship. Many people
agreed with me that it would have been better to end it as soon as I
begun it. Basically after I slept with him it would have been best to
end it. Instead it took me a religious conversion, a church marriage, a
baby, a business, quitting marijuana, a move to end it. Nine fucking
years. What bullshit.
> and, yes, your daughter is going to be angry about the divorce.
> have you tried councilling for her? does she have appropriate
> ways to work through her anger & grief?
>
Yes. I made sure she had a school counselor this year and last year. Her
kindergarten counselor liked her so much that she took her out on her
own time.
>
>>> a production oriented artist's collective? is that as
>>> horrid
>>> as it sounds? i can just imagine a roomful of resentful
>>> artists painting "happy trees & mountains".
>
>> No not at all. There are only four of us. The supervisor is
>> an art therapist. One of my co-workers is drawing
>> butterflies and the other one fairies. It is so ironic
>> because this ROCOR archpriest told me to think of
>> butterflies last time I spoke to him on the phone. He got
>> disturbed by the erotic content of my artwork on my Flickr
>> site and ran away. Priests can't look at that kind of thing
>> you know. I think that same thing happened to my retired
>> bishop, he got disturbed by the erotic nature of my
>> thoughts and cut me off.
>
> not everything is appropriate for all venues. you need to
> respect other's feelings when discussing or showing those types
> of work.
>
Yes. You are right. That is why I am reaching out to the gothic artists'
community. I am branching out from here *back* to goth net. It is ironic
that this is my springboard to return to both goth net, and Wet Canvas,
and even Inkubus Sukkubus, for I am also a part of that community. I
can't believe that people laugh at me and are so insane about me here.
They don't know me. That is insane. Ty and Troia (at times) are insane
regarding me.
>>> making a living as a real artist is hard work. my ex is
>>> just
>>> starting to get decent paying jobs after 27 *years* of
>>> trying to break into illustration. yay! pretty soon i can
>>> kick him out ;)
>>>
>> Wow. Your ex still lives with you? I gave mine the boot May
>> 15, 2005 and he is now technically homeless. He spent the
>> night in a sleeping bag on the floor in our daughter's room
>> much to her delight thrice last week, last time was Sunday
>> night.
>
> unfortunately, yes, he does. i don't dislike him. i just never
> should have married him. we get along ok as friends. i'd just
> really like to have my parlor back! i need the room.
>
Wow. You know I totally identify with you. It was improper for me to
marry my ex as well. Like I said, a retired religious studies professor
said that my ex priest and I coerced him into marrying me even though I
had every reason to. Then again this Orthodox retired religious studies
professor said he could not marry me due to being on social security and
not being able to provide, so perhaps he was bitter? Who knows. Now I
got this Roman Catholic man in Winston-Salem, NC sweating me. He still
thinks he has a chance at marrying me. No way.
Everyone agrees my ex and I do better as friends, especially my
daughter's godfather. It is pretty amazing how supportive our parish is.
I love my parish very much.
Anyways, I don't know what it is about me and old retired religious
scholars. Fatal attraction?
>> She is furious with me for divorcing him, as is he.
>
> well, yeah. what did you expect? especially a 6 year old, who
> really isn't going to understand *why* daddy is away & then
> back... and you just can't go telling a child her daddy is an
> addict.
> she needs somewhere she can safely vent.
>
Well I gave him the boot when she was 4. She understands actually. Like
I said, it is a mistake to let him into my apartment. I can not control
him nor her. We can not control each other. That is codependent. I have
discussed this thoroughly with my sponsor. Her husband divorced her when
she got sober and left her with three boys. She told me whenever he took
them over the weekend it took three days to get them back to the normal.
She can vent with me. I try to be as emotionally supportive as possible.
I went through Parent Child Interaction Therapy with her, I have my
education and my work and volunteer experience to support me in
supporting her. I am very lucky in this regard.
>> I am in hell right now and so much want to be in another
>> relationship. I think I am depressed due to the lack of
>> romantic partner but oh well.
>> I have nothing, by my own choice.
>
> probably a good choice too. nothing like a rebound relationship
> to screw you over... meaning you want to get over the former one
> completely before getting into something else.
>
Well I have had a lot of rebound relationships, thank ghod none of them
were physical. I have had intellectual affairs.
>>> guess that wasn't the imagination she wanted you to
>>> use...
>>>
>> Well it had to come out first. I mean like I said, it is
>> like the moth that sometimes flits around my bedroom. I am
>> still very fascinated with the darkness. My priest warns me
>> against this. It comes in confession *all the time*. I have
>> a very hard conversion I am going through. I used to be a
>> pagan.
>
> have you really considered if this conversion is right for you?
> is this *really* what you need?
>
That is where we get into my relationship with my bishop. He accepted me
into the Church through chrismation. I am a Christian whether or not I
want to be one. He teaches, to my understanding, that Jesus Christ saves
who He wants to save. Jesus Christ had been hunting me for quite some
time. I finally gave into Him through my bishop. The Orthodox Church
teaches that God knows what we need, not us. I have surrendered to God.
>>> well, no. you can go as dark as you can find buyers for.
>>> you
>>> can do whatever pleases you anytime, but that doesn't mean
>>> anyone else wants it or will buy it. if you hope to be
>>> self- supporting as an artist, you have to paint the crap
>>> that sells. that's just a fact of life.
>>>
>> Yes, I know. I am not painting yet but working in pencil
>> and ink. I have not taught myself to paint beyond water
>> color.
>
> pen & ink, colored with watercolors is a very nice form of
> illustration.
> here's some of Michael's work:
> http://www.bpib.com/illustra2/kaluta.htm
> the more recent stuff is toward the bottom of the page (i'm one
> of the models for a couple of things. i'm so in awe of his work,
> that it shocks me that i'd possibly be a model)
>
Wow. I am also in awe of his work. Very interesting. Thank you for the
link.
>> I started learning oils but got discouraged. I used
>> to paint with a bisexual female friend of mine in high
>> school. We used to take baths together. I may say more
>> about her later. My painting is extremely tied up with my
>> sexuality. That is the problem. I have sublimated my
>> sexuality into my art, and my sexuality has grown even more
>> darker than I was a teenager. I have always been into
>> bondage but now fantasizing about an Orthodox bishop?
>> That's over the top.
>
> that's a really stream of consciousness paragraph... IMO, oils
> are overrated. they're also toxic, so you don't want them around
> a child. the artists i know that use oils have studios separate
> from thier living spaces for their painting.
>
I don't own any oils. I have not touched them since high school. I don't
really like them to be honest. My high school friend used them in her
basement.
>> Right. I meant with permission. You didn't think I would do
>> that without permission do you? You do know I am
>> experienced and respected and admired Orthodox photographer
>> and that my photographs are used by my diocese, right? They
>> are all over websites and in commemoration books.
>
> yeah, i know. that doesn't mean that clubs would welcome you
> though. consider that the patrons just may not want anyone
> outside of the club to know... it's quite different than nature
> photography or even the church photography.
>
Again, I would not do it without permission. I would work with the club
owner. I am very good at building relationships.
>>>> Everyone pretty much
>>>> agrees this group *will* help me with my art.
>>> everyone who? please be specific.
>> Why? I am afraid to name names. You are one of them,
>> Renate, Jennie, and others, whoever that guy was that just
>> responded to me, Geraldo. I don't entirely trust you lee. I
>> think you are proud to be bragging about knowing how to
>> read at age 3.
>
> not really. hyperlexia is autistic spectrum. it's not something
> to brag about.
>
I am very sorry. I did not read that whole message. I actually killed
the thread. I am very sensitive about my own intellectual gifts and am
feeling extremely protective of them now. I am so glad you put up with
my defensiveness.
>> You reflect my own pride back to me and I
>> don't like that. I need to STFU about my own intellectual
>> gifts. I don't want to alienate people. So I thank you for
>> that lesson.
>
> well, you're welcome, but pride isn't really one of my deadly
> sins. :) i think sloth is my biggest sin.
> lee
>
Are you sure? I have so much on my plate that I get overwhelmed and shut
down. I know for a fact I am not lazy. Sloth and depression are not the
same thing. The Church equates despondency with sloth and I disagree.
Thank you for your care and love. I am really benefiting from it. I hope
my anonyma is pleased with our relationship. He is still reading this group.
I shall return to that thread I ignored. Thank you for respecting me and
treating me like a human being. You have the same legal name as my bishop.
Olympiada
Bob Terwilliger
> I identify as goth because of my soul, personality and mind. I identify as
> goth because I like gothic music, gothic art and gothic literature. I just
> got back in touch with the local gothic scene. There are a couple of web
> communities for the SF Bay Area goth scene and I shall be posting event
> notifications as they come up. You have to remember that my high school
> friends are goth. It seems you doubt my authenticity and think I am a
> poseur. If you do, I am sorry for that.
Using the term "poseur" is clear evidence that you are indeed a poser. I
sure hope you don't fuck up the goth scene in your area.
> Ok, I think I am not being clear. I have actual work. I have a market.
> Dark fairies will not sell to that market. That is what my supervisor told
> me. My co-workers are already selling their work. I don't know why its so
> hard for people to believe that I already have work. I have been producing
> art since early childhood. My mother is an artist. This is why I have this
> job. I am talented enough to produce art that will sell. I am back on
> track with my productivity. I don't know why so many people in this group
> doubt me. Its really frustrating. My supervisor told me to ignore my
> critics, as did my co-workers.
What do you mean by your statement, "I am back on track with my
productivity"? Your laziness is well-known, so I find myself disbelieving
that your productivity is anything NEAR what would be required of a bona
fide commercial artist. So let's hear some figures: How many FINISHED
PRODUCTS have you released this year?
> Yes, I know. I have also been ignoring the mail and not communicating with
> my sponsor enough. My life has become unmanageable. Remember my ex husband
> is actively acting out his marijuana addiction and in my life. It has made
> my life unmanageable. I am powerless over him. He spent the night twice in
> the past week against my will. My daughter is very angry with me for
> divorcing him. My life is unmanageable I say again, I am powerless over
> him. The mess is with the different systems I am dealing with right now
> regarding child care, welfare, Medicare, elementary school, community
> center, summer camp, sponsor, fellowship, church, work and more, as well
> as the practicing addict in my life.
No, the problem is with YOU. If your ex staying the night was truly against
your will, why didn't you call 911? I don't believe that his staying *was*
against your will. You're just using weakness as an excuse for your
passivity and laziness.
Besides, why didn't you put on your pit-bull-bitch act? Were you afraid
he'd laugh at you? Or is it that your daughter makes the rules in your
household?
> Wow. Your ex still lives with you? I gave mine the boot May 15, 2005 and
> he is now technically homeless. He spent the night in a sleeping bag on
> the floor in our daughter's room much to her delight thrice last week,
> last time was Sunday night.
If he slept in your house three times last week, then you didn't REALLY
"give him the boot" at all, did you?
> You do know I am experienced and respected and admired Orthodox
> photographer and that my photographs are used by my diocese, right? They
> are all over websites and in commemoration books.
I don't believe you. Point out several of the photographs you claim to have
taken.
Bob
erithromycin
>AOK:
>>I am also a photographer and I want to go to a SM or goth
>>club as a photographer, but I have never even been to a SM
>>or goth club as a patron!
>and no SM or goth club wants photographers there. i don't
>know of any that allow it.
I know of a handful that have photographers of their own, but they are
almost invariably drawn from or recruited by the organisers.
To be blunt, there's too many FIMSs and Kamerapervert out there for it to be
a viable option to try and get involved from the cold.
>>Everyone pretty much agrees this group *will* help me with my art.
>everyone who? please be specific.
I'm curious as to which group she is refering. It can't be us, can it?
--
erith - .sig
AOK
> enigma:
>
> >AOK:
> >>I am also a photographer and I want to go to a SM or goth
> >>club as a photographer, but I have never even been to a SM
> >>or goth club as a patron!
> >and no SM or goth club wants photographers there. i don't
> >know of any that allow it.
>
> I know of a handful that have photographers of their own, but they are
> almost invariably drawn from or recruited by the organisers.
>
> To be blunt, there's too many FIMSs and Kamerapervert out there for it to be
> a viable option to try and get involved from the cold.
>
book. I literally have an assignment book I picked up on sale at Ride
Aid after Christmas on sale. I am going to have to look them up. They
are a UK thing. I am not from the cold. Maybe to you. Anyways, perhaps
that is a distraction. I am not ready for that in my career. First I
have to get up and running as a commercial artist. When I get home I
need to do my illustration for the day.
I stupidly got rid of my college drawing book out of discouragement a
decade ago. Depression sucks. Thank ghod for medication that can treat
it. Depression clouds the mind.
> >>Everyone pretty much agrees this group *will* help me with my art.
> >everyone who? please be specific.
>
> I'm curious as to which group she is refering. It can't be us, can it?
> --
> erith - .sig
Yes it is. Don't worry, you are not part of the conversation. I am
referring to Jennie, enigma, and Renate, and the one I am conversing
with off line right now. I am at the library and I just got a drawing
book for my daughter and one for me. Are you alway this nasty and
hostile? First you try to seduce me and then you are mean to me? Wow.
Is that the goth UK way?
AOK
>
>> Yes, I know. I have also been ignoring the mail and not communicating with
>> my sponsor enough. My life has become unmanageable. Remember my ex husband
>> is actively acting out his marijuana addiction and in my life. It has made
>> my life unmanageable. I am powerless over him. He spent the night twice in
>> the past week against my will. My daughter is very angry with me for
>> divorcing him. My life is unmanageable I say again, I am powerless over
>> him. The mess is with the different systems I am dealing with right now
>> regarding child care, welfare, Medicare, elementary school, community
>> center, summer camp, sponsor, fellowship, church, work and more, as well
>> as the practicing addict in my life.
>
> No, the problem is with YOU. If your ex staying the night was truly against
> your will, why didn't you call 911? I don't believe that his staying *was*
> against your will. You're just using weakness as an excuse for your
> passivity and laziness.
>
> Besides, why didn't you put on your pit-bull-bitch act? Were you afraid
> he'd laugh at you? Or is it that your daughter makes the rules in your
> household?
>
Ok, I have thought about this for a few days now. You are right, the
problem is within me. My former counselor advised me not to let him in
the apartment. I think I have told you what my retired bishop has said
about counselors and alcoholic abusive husbands. He thinks the wife can
still work out her salvation with the alcoholic abusive husband and
ought not divorce him. Now, I made a typo in a prior message when I said
my former counselor advised me to divorce him. She did not. I made that
decision all by my self. However, I suffer from great guilt for
divorcing him, as I am an Orthodox Christian, and I know how my retired
bishop feels about such things. I feel responsible for him being
"technically homeless" as he put it, my ex that is. Ironically enough,
my retired bishop may be dealing with similar struggles as to where he
is going to live now that he is retired.
Ok, I called 911 one *twice* in 2005 when I gave him the boot. I chose
not to file a TRO, I could have. They told him they would arrest him if
they had to come again. I will tell you why his staying was against my
will. It was a Wednesday night. He brought our daughter home after 9pm.
That is her bedtime, like turn off the lights, mom leaves the room
bedtime. That was the night that I first took the double dose of my
night time medication. My doctor told me it would make me tired. I was
scared. My doctor told me to take it at 8pm or 9pm. I could not take it
until my X brought our daughter home. Therefore I reminded him of what I
had to do that night and told him to put her to bed, and I went in my
room and went to sleep. I had no idea he would spend the night.
My X has never laughed at me, and I make the rules. Once again your
prove your vision is clouded regarding me and you are mean nasty troll
who is making my life unpleasant. Cut it out.
>
>> Wow. Your ex still lives with you? I gave mine the boot May 15, 2005 and
>> he is now technically homeless. He spent the night in a sleeping bag on
>> the floor in our daughter's room much to her delight thrice last week,
>> last time was Sunday night.
>
> If he slept in your house three times last week, then you didn't REALLY
> "give him the boot" at all, did you?
>
Yes I gave him the boot. He spent the night Saturday night because he
had not even fed her by her dinner time and called me from SF told me he
was going to bring her back to Marin feed her and bring her home. Church
started early the next morning: Matins at 8:30am. Usually her godmother
and her husband bring us to Church. They would have come at 8am. I knew
my daughter would not be ready to go considering her father brought her
home late. I asked him where he was spending the night that night. He
did not know. I said, "fine I need to get to Church early in the
morning, you are bringing her home late, you are going to have to bring
us to Church in the morning."
Sunday night, same thing, he brought her home *late*, from the beach. He
was lying on her floor on top of the sleeping bag, falling asleep. He
was reading to her. I gave him two choices, either leave now or spend
the night and take her to school in the morning. She pitched a fit, so
of course he stayed.
Believe me, I gave him the boot.
One more time, Mr. Terwilliger, you are deluded regarding me and
flooding this group with your delusions. Stop it.
>
>> You do know I am experienced and respected and admired Orthodox
>> photographer and that my photographs are used by my diocese, right? They
>> are all over websites and in commemoration books.
>
> I don't believe you. Point out several of the photographs you claim to have
> taken.
>
No. I do not need to prove a thing to you. I don't want more tracks
leading to my work laid out. You are mean and nasty and unpleasant to
me. Forget it.
Olympiada
>
> Bob
>
>
Bob Terwilliger
> My X has never laughed at me,
By writing "ex-husband" as "X," are you trying to imply that he's Christ, as
in the abbreviations "Xmas" and "Xtian"?
If he's never laughed at you, he must have a truly stunted sense of humor.
Here in alt.gothic, home of people who are SUPPOSED to be gloomy, you are
the source of unending amusement.
Dance, puppet, dance!
> and I make the rules.
Do you REALLY make the rules? I mean, I'd assume that one of your rules for
your ex-husband would be "you can't sleep at my house." But by your
account, he broke that rule THREE TIMES last week, so your "rules" seem to
mean less than nothing.
> Yes I gave him the boot. He spent the night Saturday night because he had
> not even fed her by her dinner time and called me from SF told me he was
> going to bring her back to Marin feed her and bring her home. Church
> started early the next morning: Matins at 8:30am. Usually her godmother
> and her husband bring us to Church. They would have come at 8am. I knew my
> daughter would not be ready to go considering her father brought her home
> late. I asked him where he was spending the night that night. He did not
> know. I said, "fine I need to get to Church early in the morning, you are
> bringing her home late, you are going to have to bring us to Church in the
> morning."
...and WHY would your daughter not be ready to go at 8 AM, again? Hey, given
my personal choice, I'd sleep in until about 2 PM every day, but I am more
RESPONSIBLE than that. Sounds like there's nobody in your household who can
take on that kind of responsibility.
> Sunday night, same thing, he brought her home *late*, from the beach. He
> was lying on her floor on top of the sleeping bag, falling asleep. He was
> reading to her. I gave him two choices, either leave now or spend the
> night and take her to school in the morning. She pitched a fit, so of
> course he stayed.
"She pitched a fit" so of course you gave her what she wanted. Heaven forbid
you act like a PARENT.
>>> You do know I am experienced and respected and admired Orthodox
>>> photographer and that my photographs are used by my diocese, right? They
>>> are all over websites and in commemoration books.
>>
>> I don't believe you. Point out several of the photographs you claim to
>> have taken.
>>
> No. I do not need to prove a thing to you. I don't want more tracks
> leading to my work laid out. You are mean and nasty and unpleasant to me.
> Forget it.
Okay, so you admit you were lying? If your photos are truly "all over the
websites" they're in the public domain, and you SHOULD get credit for them.
The fact that you are unwilling to point out any of your alleged works means
that such works probably don't exist -- rather like all those greeting cards
you were supposed to have illustrated.
Bob
Wraithlady
> > >everyone who? please be specific.
>
> > I'm curious as to which group she is refering. It can't be us, can it?
> > --
> > erith - .sig
>
> Yes it is.
No, Atlanta, it isn't. We don't care, we don't want to see your non-
existant art.This is not alt.gothic.atlantas-socalledart-
supportandencouragement.
>Don't worry, you are not part of the conversation.
Yes we bloody are. Get this into your thick skull: this is a public
forum. You post here, we all have to suffer it.
>I am
> referring to Jennie, enigma, and Renate, and the one I am conversing
> with off line right now.
And the last one is mentioned *why?*. Jennie et al, although members
of alt.gothic ,are not 'this group' (no offence to those three, but
it's a fact that there are other members) Funny how Bob isn't referred
to although he seems part of 'this group' too.
>I am at the library and I just got a drawing
> book for my daughter and one for me.
And you're telling us this - why? Do we care? You forgot to tell us
what you had for breakfast.
> Are you alway this nasty and
> hostile?
Only to you, Whack Job
>First you try to seduce me and then you are mean to me? Wow.
If I bed you, will you go away?
> Is that the goth UK way?
No. The goth UK way states that you are not worthy of seduction. Even
as a joke or with malicious intent.
You'd better believe it, Dearie.
kest
> well, no. you can go as dark as you can find buyers for. you
> can do whatever pleases you anytime, but that doesn't mean
> anyone else wants it or will buy it. if you hope to be self-
> supporting as an artist, you have to paint the crap that
> sells. that's just a fact of life.
but if you're just painting the crap that sells, are you truly an Artist?
Aren't the great ones usually the ones that follow their heart instead of
the marketplace and blah blah blah?
k
enigma
news:Xns98F3F3E107EDD...@kest.ninehells.com:
and most artists were very poor during their lifetimes unless
they were lucky enough to find a wealthy patron to support
them.
art is not an easy career, but if you *are* a real artist,
it's something you have to do. getting used to living really
frugally is a good idea ;)
NightMist
wrote:
>kest <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> wrote in
>news:Xns98F3F3E107EDD...@kest.ninehells.com:
>
>> enigma <eni...@evil.net> scrawled:
>>
>>> well, no. you can go as dark as you can find buyers for.
>>> you
>>> can do whatever pleases you anytime, but that doesn't mean
>>> anyone else wants it or will buy it. if you hope to be
>>> self- supporting as an artist, you have to paint the crap
>>> that sells. that's just a fact of life.
>>
>> but if you're just painting the crap that sells, are you
>> truly an Artist? Aren't the great ones usually the ones
>> that follow their heart instead of the marketplace and blah
>> blah blah?
>
> and most artists were very poor during their lifetimes unless
>they were lucky enough to find a wealthy patron to support
>them.
> art is not an easy career, but if you *are* a real artist,
>it's something you have to do. getting used to living really
>frugally is a good idea ;)
You have no idea how much I hate the starving artist mythos.
It is not necessary for an artist to be poor their whole life.
OK, maybe I am a bad example, because I pretty much have been poor all
my life. Still....
I have had people tell me I am not a "real artist" because I have sold
paintings and taken commissions. Um, excuse me? Am I supposed to
stack up paintings in my lonely garret, until I get thrown out because
I can't pay the rent? Then starve to death on the street in a muddle
of angst and absinthe? I expect it would do a lot to raise the value
of my paintings if I should come into fashion, the myth of the
starving artist is so ingrained it now adds value to the work sold
after they are convienently dead and cannot take a cut of the sale
prices.
Yes there are and have been people within the last century who have in
essence supported artists at bare subsistance rates by buying work for
cheap, and then sold that same work for sky high prices after the
artist is dead. Puffing the prices with the so tragic tale.
Yes there are artists who starve. There are also artists who make a
damn good living. But wait! The ones making a good living cannot be
"real artists", they are not starving! Bah! You don't hear people
saying that about actors, or journalists (with the possible exception
of starving actors or journalists). Somebody painting fairies sitting
on toadstools can be every bit as much an artist as somebody starving
on a Parisian streetcorner. If they are painting what they want, more
power to them, if they are grinding out product so they can eat while
they paint what they want, more power to them. Why should working
fast food so you can pay the rent be more noble than using your
talents and training to pay the rent?
BTW, there are few artists of note that truly were starving artists.
In addition to patrons, there were abundant studios that did
everything from fresco and murals to portraits and miniatures. The
artist that has been most used in establishing the whole starving
artist idea, is Van Gogh. So in reality we have had barely more than a
century for this whole notion to become established, which it has with
a vengance.
NightMist
--
Come to the dark side.
We have cookies.
enigma
news:45f98f59...@news.madbbs.com:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:31:39 +0000 (UTC), enigma
> <eni...@evil.net> wrote:
>> and most artists were very poor during their lifetimes
>> unless
>>they were lucky enough to find a wealthy patron to support
>>them.
>> art is not an easy career, but if you *are* a real artist,
>>it's something you have to do. getting used to living
>>really frugally is a good idea ;)
>
> You have no idea how much I hate the starving artist
> mythos. It is not necessary for an artist to be poor their
> whole life. OK, maybe I am a bad example, because I pretty
> much have been poor all my life. Still....
ah, but i was not clear. one rarely, if ever, comes tripping
out of art school (or anywhere) into a full-blown well-paid
art career. you are going to have to establish yourself, and
in order to do that, you are going to have to paint the pretty
happy fairies, or the sunny cheerful landscapes or the
impossibly adorable children... because *that* is what is most
likely to keep you from starving while you develop your style
& clientel.
from the people i know that went to art school, they seem to
think they can do *anything*, write an "artist's statement",
waltz into a gallery & sell the art for thousands of dollars.
seriously. i think those people are delusional.
i agree with you, basicly in that any artist that is starving
has issues, but they could be as simple as not knowing how to
sell art (i do know a lot of talented artists that are
absolutely no good at self-promotion) or as serious as Van
Gogh's mental illness.
however, i still maintain that knowing how to live frugally
until one *can* establish onesself, *and* an ability to suck
it up & produce art that sells, even if it's not what you
*want* to be known for, are going to get you further than
thinking you can do whatever you like & people are going to
pay you hundreds or thousands of dollars, when no one knows
who you are...
Satori
"NightMist" <night...@gmail.com> wrote:
>kest <ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org> wrote
>> but if you're just painting the crap that sells, are you
>> truly an Artist? Aren't the great ones usually the ones
>> that follow their heart instead of the marketplace and blah
>> blah blah?
> BTW, there are few artists of note that truly were starving artists.
> In addition to patrons, there were abundant studios that did
> everything from fresco and murals to portraits and miniatures. The
> artist that has been most used in establishing the whole starving
> artist idea, is Van Gogh. So in reality we have had barely more than a
> century for this whole notion to become established, which it has with
> a vengance.
Our whole concept of what art is has changed in a little more than a
century. Historically, art is not about "following your heart" or
"self-expression". These are concepts from the Romantic era. Art is a form
of cultural communication. Successful art needs to have meaning in a
cultural (or at least subcultural) context. That can be anything from
medieval art communicating that culture's ideas about religion, to early
20th century Dadaists essentially saying "the world doesn't make any sense,
anymore, so neither does this art". But the idea of the lone artist
expressing his heart out until someone realizes his unique genius is a myth.
Michaelangelo didn't paint to express himself. He painted to express the
ideals of The Church and other wealthy patrons.
Perhaps some artists in the last couple centuries have picked up on a
cultural zeitgeist before the marketplace was quite ready for it, which has
contributed to the "discovered starving artist" notion.