bored with goth...(pointless, rambling)
XloreleiX
like what it's become. I think most goth bands are fuggin' horrible, and I
can't remember the last 'goth' album I bought that was any good at all (unless
you count the soundtrack to Derek Jarman's "Blue," which has Coil & Miranda Sex
Garden, but I don't consider either to be a goth band, and it's not new
anyway). I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books. I would much rather watch the Simpsons than the
goddamn Crow tv show.
It's dawned on me that most goths are no more interesting or intelligent than
anyone else, and a whole lot of them are dumber than rocks. I consciously avoid
using the word "goth" in my AOL profile because it attracts morons en masse
("do u like SoM"). It feels like someone sucked all the Art out of goth a few
years ago and all the future holds is things like Switchblade Symphony and
Orgy...I find it almost embarrassing that my middle-aged coworkers know what
"goth" is now (sort of) and can identify me as one. Because, you know, they
only learned that word after seeing "shock rocker Marilyn Manson" on the
news... anyway, it's become tedious.
I like the same things I've always liked, but most of the bands I love are
broken up and nothing nearly as good has come to take their place; most of the
"goths" I've encountered in the past couple years ago don't really care about
art or creativity or expanding their mind beyond their tiny gothworld at all,
only about how much stuff they bought at Le Spooky Goth Shoppe last weekend,
and how kinky they think they are (yeah, sure you are), and how lame
whatsisface looked in his plastic cape at the club...maybe I'm a big snob, but
I don't want to be associated with people that vapid. When did "goth" turn into
a synonym for "idiot"? Maybe it's time to move on to Eurotrash or Art Fag 'cos
goth doesn't seem like much fun these days...
(btw, I don't think all goths are idiots, just that the proportion of idiots
who are goths seems to have risen dramatically in the past few years)
~Lorelei~
* * * * * * *
"Wow! They have Nick Cave dolls now? I want one!"~Bongwater
"The Betty Ford Clinic--why, it must be the most glamourous
place on earth!"~John Waters~http://members.aol.com/XloreleiX
The Madd Hatter
but an idiot with a somewhat satirical sense of humour? :)
(ok maybe lame sense of humour :P )
Sheryl Kirby
>
> ..or maybe I've just overdosed on it. Or outgrown it, maybe, but mostly I don't
> like what it's become. I think most goth bands are fuggin' horrible, and I
> can't remember the last 'goth' album I bought that was any good at all (unless
> you count the soundtrack to Derek Jarman's "Blue," which has Coil & Miranda Sex
> Garden, but I don't consider either to be a goth band, and it's not new
> anyway). I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
> Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books. I would much rather watch the Simpsons than the
> goddamn Crow tv show.
Well... yeah. Not to add a "me too" here, but everything you've said rings
true. The cliches are just that, and I find them incredibly boring. The music
collection at House of Stained encompasses everything from classical to my
latest obsession - Punjabi Techno. It's very seldom that any of the goth stuff
makes it to the turntable or CD player anymore.
I think the problem arises when we start thinking of Goth as *just* that
cliched style. I still consider myself Goth, even though lately my look is
much more reminiscent of a black-clad socialite raver chick. (Big sneakers,
long black t-shirt dress with a hood, blonde hair and big sunglasses.) Maybe
it's because I'm getting older, but "looking cool" to impress my friends has
become less and less important. I realized that if I'm going to walk to and
from work every day, and home and back again at lunch to feed to puppy, I
cannot do it in big-ass boots. Out come the white socks and runners... fuck
fashion, comfort and getting home to my furry little boy are far more
important. But do I still consider myself "Goth"... you betcha.
> It's dawned on me that most goths are no more interesting or intelligent than
> anyone else, and a whole lot of them are dumber than rocks. I consciously avoid
> using the word "goth" in my AOL profile because it attracts morons en masse
> ("do u like SoM").
Ook! I can see how this could be annoying, yes.
> It feels like someone sucked all the Art out of goth a few
> years ago and all the future holds is things like Switchblade Symphony and
> Orgy...I find it almost embarrassing that my middle-aged coworkers know what
> "goth" is now (sort of) and can identify me as one. Because, you know, they
> only learned that word after seeing "shock rocker Marilyn Manson" on the
> news... anyway, it's become tedious.
My cow-orkers know bout goth because after the Colorado shootings, I sat down
with all of them and talked about it. And on casual days (which is pretty much
every day for me... but moreso on Fridays) I usually show up in a Convergence
tshirt, which generally provokes some questions. They also know that I work a
flexible schedule because of my involvement in putting on goth events and
shows.
> I like the same things I've always liked, but most of the bands I love are
> broken up and nothing nearly as good has come to take their place; most of the
> "goths" I've encountered in the past couple years ago don't really care about
> art or creativity or expanding their mind beyond their tiny gothworld at all,
> only about how much stuff they bought at Le Spooky Goth Shoppe last weekend,
> and how kinky they think they are (yeah, sure you are), and how lame
> whatsisface looked in his plastic cape at the club...maybe I'm a big snob, but
> I don't want to be associated with people that vapid. When did "goth" turn into
> a synonym for "idiot"? Maybe it's time to move on to Eurotrash or Art Fag 'cos
> goth doesn't seem like much fun these days...
I can relate to what you're going through because I've definitely been there.
You might remember a similar post from me from about a year ago... I had just
been to Vancouver, wanted desperately to move there, get a dog, go blonde and
become all healthy and spiritual. Goth held little promise for me. Well, a
year later, with the exception of actually moving, I've done pretty much
everything that I threatened to do. It wasn't even a conscious thing... it
just kind of happened. But during that period of time, I also had the
opportunity to meet a lot of wonderful people from this group, which made me
realize that it's really less about the superficial aspects... the clothes,
the music, etc. There are so many great people here, with varying points of
view, lifestyles, and cultures. It would be unfair to them, and to yourself,
to write it all off as a Goth cliche...
There's gotta be parts of the scene that you do like. Or at the very least
something that draws you to it and keeps you here. Don't let the idiots and
cliches keep you from a part of yourself.
Sheryl
--
Hallowmas 1999 - October 29th to 31st, Toronto, Canada
http://www.stainedproductions.com/hallowmas/
Because when you live a life where every day is Halloween,
October 31st requires a bit more effort.
Oonh
bunches of random things
have irregular blobs drawn around them
then those blobs are given names
those names become systems, become a canon.
some staunchly defend nascent canons.
others keep seeing the blob stage
The Defenders of Nascent Canons (now
I draw my little circle for a self
referential joke) impart thermodynamics
to these blobs. They become like cells,
or systems. Subject to the second
law, without aggregation or inflow,
they stagnate and die. So don't draw
the circle, and live.
The funny thing here is that without
really trying the Defenders of Nascent
Canons manage to be contradictory:
there will always be people who
start, in any century and in any time.
So there's always an inflow, and
there system remains stable.
Oonh
The Madd Hatter
(Lost me after Defenders of Nascent Canon) ;)
olivia
XloreleiX wrote:
>
> ..or maybe I've just overdosed on it. Or outgrown it, maybe, but mostly I don't
> like what it's become.
<..>
"loveyakbyebye."
and,
"hello, welcome to humanity."
i say, goth schmoth. be you.
--
We're gonna ride forever
You can't keep horsemen in a cage
Should the angels call, well it's only then
I might pull in the reins
http://members.tripod.com/ivy___/
olivia
The Madd Hatter wrote:
>
> Geez, you're making some of us feel stupid now
> (Lost me after Defenders of Nascent Canon) ;)
heh.. actually, i think that's the first oonh post i *have*
understood.
Jetrock
>..or maybe I've just overdosed on it. Or outgrown it, maybe, but mostly I don't
>can't remember the last 'goth' album I bought that was any good at all (unless
>It's dawned on me that most goths are no more interesting or intelligent than
>anyone else, and a whole lot of them are dumber than rocks. I consciously avoid
>using the word "goth" in my AOL profile because it attracts morons en masse
>years ago and all the future holds is things like Switchblade Symphony and
>Orgy...I find it almost embarrassing that my middle-aged coworkers know what
>"goth" is now (sort of) and can identify me as one. Because, you know, they
>only learned that word after seeing "shock rocker Marilyn Manson" on the
>news... anyway, it's become tedious.
>whatsisface looked in his plastic cape at the club...maybe I'm a big snob, but
>I don't want to be associated with people that vapid. When did "goth" turn into
>a synonym for "idiot"? Maybe it's time to move on to Eurotrash or Art Fag 'cos
>goth doesn't seem like much fun these days...
>who are goths seems to have risen dramatically in the past few years)
>
I've been through this particular irritant several times now, and it's
never particularly pleasant.
Basically, what happens is that a few bands vaguely related with the music
and scene you like become popular, and then the hordes of normals move in.
I remember making a sarcastic comment about "in a couple years you'll see
jocks wearing eyeliner" in around 1996 or so (check dejanews on this),
being sarcastic, and now it's come true.
But then again, when I got into metal in 1984 or so, I never would have
predicted that metal would be mainstreamed within a few years (albeit by
garbage bands like Winger, Whitesnake, Guns & Roses, Poison, etc.) When I
ran from metal into the punk scene around 1987-88, I figured that stuff
would never be popular--until a few years when garbage bands like the
Offspring and Green Day hit the mainstream Top 40. So a few years ago I
started drifting away from the charred remains of the punk scene and
swung more towards the gothic/industrial scene and liked it. And now look
what happens--again, a scene gets misrepresented by a few bands, and the
lemmings run in and mess it all up.
Wait a while, it'll pass, the few interesting people will hang around and
the lemmings will go bombard whatever scene comes next. Personally I'm
getting more into my noise/experimental stuff because I figure there is no
way that the mass-mind of teen jocks will EVER start rocking out to
Merzbow or the Haters. The punk scene is currently going through this
shakedown/healing process: all the normals have jumped ship, which leaves
just the geeks who were into it before it became popular, and a few
like-minded folks--the next few years will be ripe with experimentation
since the scene isn't as dependent on "popularity", and then in a few
years a few bands will start getting big and a few specific styles/schools
will emerge and the cycle will start again. It was fun last time around:
I kind of miss the days when I'd mention that I was into punk and people
would say, "Didn't punk disappear around 1979?" (this was around 1991)
So if you feel that sticking with Goth is worth it, even if you don't want
to admit it right now, just hold tight and the lemmings will eventually
leave, and the interesting folks will still be around, if scared and
scarred and jaded. Personally, I'm more of a "scene floater" who doesn't
get too hung up about which bunch of alienated weirdos I'm hanging out
with, as long as there's a few decent tunes to listen to and a little
interesting conversation.
--
--Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!
Other
wrote:
>Geez, you're making some of us feel stupid now
>(Lost me after Defenders of Nascent Canon) ;)
Basically what he said was, if you label and enwheel something you put
little fences around it which prevent energies from entering it. So it
stagnates and dies. If you avoid the labeling and the enwheeling there
is a free flow from within and without which keeps the unnamed and
undefined thing fresh and vital.
People have a certain amount of themselves invested in that naming and
the circling (( this is g*th, this is not )) becuase in doing so they
get to belong and be part of a group. By activating the elitism gene
they get to feel special while the thing that hey treasured turns to
shit.
*but*
There is always fresh meat for the hungry mouth of the MGB. But the
character of the MGB changed with what it consumes. If you leave the
circle, you might still be the same person but others can't see you as
g*th becuase you have left the circle.
You can't g*th seriously though. There is too much to point at and
laugh with though.
I take g*th half-seriously. I want to belong, I want to believe and be
accepted. But I recognize that there is a joke and can laugh at myself
and others when they don't see it.
Why is pink goth? Becuase it makes fun of the monochrome sterotype, so
wearing all pink can be GAF, becuase you show that you don't take it
seriously. Only the small and the mean will think that you suck,
because they haven't got the joke yet.
I'm serious about goth to the mundies, but with other goths it is
joke.
Why else would things like Hand-Staple-Forhead be considered humorous?
If you took it seriously it would be offensive becuase no one can
understand your.... ~* insert mopey-goth-wank *~.
Other
I'm not a unicorn.
You're not a dying sun, there is always a ray to your heart.
Necr0angel
> I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
>Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books. I would much rather watch the Simpsons than
>the
>goddamn Crow tv show.
Well, I have to agree with you there.
Poppy Z. Brite stinks, and I accidently watched 10 minutes of the Crow tv show
last night without realizing what it was, and wondering how something so bad
was allowed to be aired...then at the commercial break they told me what it
was, and it all made sense.
necroangel
http://www.design-tech.net/necroangel/
"Quit asking me why you moron." - Hojo
"I'm not capricious, or cruel. I used you because I had no choice." - Bester
ICQ # 6471503
Kath
Yah, it happens.
Got a kick out somebody at work the other day...young, innocent IT guy with
hair to his ass (always wears it in a pony, with a black baseball cap,
sometimes backwards, always wears either black banded-collar shirt or plaid
flannel, always wears black boots...) comes up to me and is kind of lurking
uncomfortably...kind of had this one "labeled" myself as a nephew of grunge or
maybe even sort of on the edge of industrial/goth...
I ask him if I can help him...
He says "uh, I was looking at Amazon yesterday for music and came across some,
uh, Celtic (pronounces it carefully, then spells out C-E-L-T ic...)
stuff...and I was wondering, are *you* a Celt?"
I smiled, looked at him being all innocent and stuff and said "Well, yeah,
I've been known to answer to that description before (being half Irish/Scot
and the other half Cherokee, D.A.R. melting pot mix)...
And he said "I was just wondering, the way you dress, the jewelry you
wear...it said there was a religion..."
I said "Well, there are Celtic religions, and there are some modern versions
now that have borrowed some from the older ones..."
He said "oh, then is that like Pagan...are you Pagan?" (still being all polite
and innocent and stuff)...I said, "well, yeah, I've also been known to answer
to that description before as well."
Funny, he never mentioned Goth. (but of course I don't "goth out" dresswise at
work anyway, and when I do dress up it's usually eclectic)
I love being ambiguous. Helps when you need to blend into a crowd. I draw the
line at blending in with the country music or "top 40" scene, though!
Want to blend in, not necessarily "fit"...then I can stand out when I want.
Maybe that's why as things like goth become more "regimented"... I like to
change up and see what's happening outside the fringe...keeps the complacency
and boredom down. But look at the history of PIBs--Beatniks etc....go back
further into previous times as well...and look at the fringes of culture,
where the envelope of creativity is really pushed--there are always the real
thinkers on the edge, and there are always the clingers-on...
If more people start to get fed up with the present scene-we-call-goth, then
something new and even more different is bound to come from it.
(damn, does that mean I'm still an optimist?)
--Kath
XloreleiX
after I sent my original post, but hey, that wouldn't be a first ;) ). You're
all right, of course...it's not that I'm really hung up on what is/isn't goth
and whether or not I am one, and I certainly don't take myself too seriously,
although my writing style occasionally belies that. I spent a long time as one
of those people who recoiled in horror at the thought of being classified as
anything, and then I realised that trying so hard to not be labelled is no
different than accepting that labels exist, and that I wasn't really unique
anyway, so I might as well just be a goth.
What I wish is that there was a little more 'quality control' going on. Maybe
my art student-ness is showing, but I wish there was more genuine creativity in
goth music and imagery, instead of the attitude that all things dark and
spooky=goth. I think, for example, that Projekt has the right idea. I wish
there was more of a dark avant-garde movement happening, something that would
require a bit more thought and would turn off the kids who just wanna look
"freaky". Or perhaps there is, and I'm just not cool enough to know about it (I
suppose the experimental/noise scene supplies this to some degree, which I like
to a degree, but I get a headache if I try to listen to a whole Whitehouse
album)
well... I realise I'm just whingeing pointlessly about things that I can't
expect anyone else to do. Must be the weather...
Tetsab
Lorelei.
I'm afraid I've got some bad news.
You've become an American.
***
Exhibit A: You never, ever hear UK goths angsting over "what is
goth[ic]" and "am I really a goth? I don't want to call myself one,
because labels are too confining!!" For god's sake, who cares! I guess
it's a typically American adolescent phase of tiresome introspection
that leads to these incessantly irritating questions. It's also very
typically American to voice these concerns aloud without considering
that nobody else gives a toss!
***
> I don't like what it's become. I think most goth bands are fuggin' > horrible, and I can't remember the last 'goth' album I bought that was > any good at all
This may seem odd but, what's your point?
Personally I think most *bands* are fuggin' horrible. Doesn't make me
any less of a music fan - doesn't make you any less of a <thatdamnword>
> I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
> Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books.
Again.. what's your point! So would I based on what I have experienced
of her (i.e. 2 short stories and that was quiet enough thank you.)
I've got better books to consume. Like the Adrian (or is that Adrain ;)
Mole books. Books that have more of a point neatly hidden in the humour
than random bodies hanging from hooks a la Z. Brite.
[Oi! Disclamer right here. There's a reason I've never been involved in
the Brite battles of the past and that is because I don't care to argue
them, in the end such things are all personal opinion, subjective taste,
yadda yadda yadda. Besides I've not read *nearly* enough of her work to
have any sort of qualified opinon. So there!]
> I would much rather watch the Simpsons than the goddamn Crow tv show.
My crows breath smells like crow food.
I've never even seen the movie. Besides I thought the general concensus
here was that the Crow tv show reaked to high hell.
> It's dawned on me that most goths are no more interesting or intelligent than
> anyone else, and a whole lot of them are dumber than rocks.
Agreed.
I don't like bright & cool goths.
I like bright & cool people.
[If they happen to be goth, bonus, there's a slightly higher chance
we'll have similar tastes (By the way it frightened me the first time I
saw your page because our opinions on various things/taste in
music/etc.. were very close to my own)]
Again, why is it a concern?
> I consciously avoid using the word "goth" in my AOL profile.
I consciously avoid using the word goth. ;)
Labels are things other people are supposed to attach to you, not things
you utilize to define yourself (they're virtually useless in that
respect).
The best way I've found to throw people off is if they ask you if you're
a goth, ask them what's a goth. Hilarious results have yet to fail me.
> It feels like someone sucked all the Art out of goth a few
> years ago and all the future holds is things like Switchblade Symphony > and Orgy
Are you sure you're not just romanticing the past? Just curious
perceptions are easy things to screw with when you're hearing "Clown"
for the thousanth time.
How much art has there actually been?
> I like the same things I've always liked, but most of the bands I love are
> broken up and nothing nearly as good has come to take their place;
Agreed wholeheartedly.
> I don't want to be associated with people that vapid.
Admittedly all of the "goths" <What's a goth? Hyuk> I know personally
are people from online and they are wonderful, wonderful people.
I've met 2 goths other than that. 1 of them kept going on about how
their house was haunted and other such stuff. The other one was talking
about how "these sorts" of goths (meaning non-'Victorians') aren't the
REAL GOTHS and are ruining the scene. I don't want to be associated with
them, but I do adore the listmeet people. [Some names you'll recognize:
Silentq, Siobhan, Axel, Capser].
> (btw, I don't think all goths are idiots, just that the proportion of idiots
> who are goths seems to have risen dramatically in the past few years)
I can't help but agree with that, but I think that's due quite strongly
to the number of goths rising dramatically in the past few years. I
mean, case in point this newgroup.
Anyway, goths aren't real people; I'm sixty percent black papier mache.
Tetsab.
>^..^< [P&M]
--
Sig-na-a-ture is dead. http://members.home.net/tetsab/
The bytes have left the bell-tower.
GOT...@webtv.net
>(damn, does that mean I'm still an optimist?)
Of course, but I guess I am too.... Just a little. I agree with you. I
think the scene is changing, not just for the worse.
I was introduced to this thing just a few years ago, and as much as I
fell in love with it, I saw right away that there were a lot of idiots
and poseurs.... but the majority of the world is made up of morons. Why
should the goth scene be immune? It seems to me, that most of these
idiots are just scared "children" trying so despretly to fit in
somewhere, and Goth is what seems to fit them at the moment. Most will
be gone in a year or two, others will mature and might actually make a
contribution.
Yes, there does seem to be a definite lack of new talent, musically. I'm
definately not one to judge in this area, as I'm still learning about
the old. But, I have seen that the biggest problem is the fact that
these new groups are trying so hard to fit into the "goth" mold, they
aren't breaking any new ground. They are not using their talent fully
(and many are very talented) Some friends and I were going to start a
band a couple of years ago, it never worked out for many reasons. I gave
up because I got sick of arguing with the question "Don't you want to be
like _____? (Insert any great band) No! The only thing that happens when
you try to be like something else, is you become a sad mockery of it.
(Remember that Beatles wanna-be group, Oasis?)
I can definately see where someone can become bored with Goth. I think
the best way to deal with it is to do something new, rather than walk
away. You can't possibly have expressed every part of your personality,
why not do something new? I hate seeing people try so hard to blend in,
and many elitists seem to look down on those who try to do something
new. Personally, I like to stand out. I love going to a club dressed
totally in white, when everyone else is dressed totally in black. It
makes me feel like a lilly amongst a field of dried roses.
My advice is this:
If you are sick of the new music, start your own band. (But,
different!!!!!!) Become someone that other new bands will try to
emulate.
Sick of Poopie Z. and Bland Rice? Write something new!!! Most people
with the ability to recognize overated writing, are usually excellent
writers themselves. Don't be afraid to piss people off or scare them
with new ideas. The world needs it.
Don't sit around being bored, do something different. (I should also
follow my own advice) You were creative enough to make something of it
for this long, and creative wells don't dry up. Sometimes we just forget
where they are.
Catherine, who wishes she could write like Oonh because this babble
would have been much more interesting.
-*`*~*-*`*-.,.-.-*`*- ^^o,,o^^
XloreleiX
>XloreleiX wrote:
>
>Lorelei.
>
>I'm afraid I've got some bad news.
>
>You've become an American.
>
>***
>
>Exhibit A: You never, ever hear UK goths angsting over "what is
>goth[ic]" and "am I really a goth? I don't want to call myself one,
>because labels are too confining!!" For god's sake, who cares! I guess
>it's a typically American adolescent phase of tiresome introspection
>that leads to these incessantly irritating questions. It's also very
>typically American to voice these concerns aloud without considering
>that nobody else gives a toss!
>
>***
Yabbut, see, well, I know what goth meant to me and what everyone else thought
used to matter naught. (haven't I deleted my webpage yet? it's so sucky and
outdated, I'm ashamed people even look at it...) It just seems like the rest of
the world--the "nouveaux goth" and the non-goths just starting to grasp what it
is--has decided that goth is something altogether craptacularly different,
which is fine for them, but I'm not sure if there's any point in reading goth
newsgroups, reading goth magazines, seeking out goth music, etc.--bothering
with "goth," period, when I feel 180 degrees away from the rest of it.
Why I rambled about it here, I don't know. Boredom coupled with procrastination
(I've got 2 papers due tomorrow), mostly. I apologise for those who don't care,
but I did say it was pointless.
>> I don't like what it's become. I think most goth bands are fuggin' >
>horrible, and I can't remember the last 'goth' album I bought that was > any
>good at all
>
>This may seem odd but, what's your point?
>
>Personally I think most *bands* are fuggin' horrible. Doesn't make me
>any less of a music fan - doesn't make you any less of a <thatdamnword>
True. I meant, f'r instance, I would so much rather listen to the new
Underworld album than anything by, say, the Cruxshadows or the Wake or LAM, etc
etc. I don't really give a toss about the new CoX album. Yes, a lot of what I
like is goth-friendly, but "goth rock" it is not. My point is that this is just
one more area wherein I feel alienated from "goth" (that word again!).
>> I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
>> Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books.
>
>Again.. what's your point! So would I based on what I have experienced
>of her (i.e. 2 short stories and that was quiet enough thank you.)
>
>I've got better books to consume. Like the Adrian (or is that Adrain ;)
>Mole books. Books that have more of a point neatly hidden in the humour
>than random bodies hanging from hooks a la Z. Brite.
>
>[Oi! Disclamer right here. There's a reason I've never been involved in
>the Brite battles of the past and that is because I don't care to argue
>them, in the end such things are all personal opinion, subjective taste,
>yadda yadda yadda. Besides I've not read *nearly* enough of her work to
>have any sort of qualified opinon. So there!]
Unfortunately, I've read most of her work. Why? Partly because it's so
screamingly bad that it's like watching a car wreck...I am forever in awe that
she actually got that crap published. I suspect I'm also a little bit
masochistic when it comes to entertainment, which would explain why I read
Usenet and watch insipid game shows sometimes. ;) Why do I harbour such a
vendetta against PZB? Well, I think she probably likes it, actually. Writers
get off on that sort of thing.
>> I would much rather watch the Simpsons than the goddamn Crow tv show.
>
>My crows breath smells like crow food.
>
>I've never even seen the movie. Besides I thought the general concensus
>here was that the Crow tv show reaked to high hell.
True, like so much other goth-oriented media, it indeed reeks. This is what I
don't get. Goth! In theory, it should offer a whole world of fantastic
possibilities...so why does the execution usually disappoint (or is it just
me)?
(snip)
>I don't like bright & cool goths.
>I like bright & cool people.
>
>[If they happen to be goth, bonus, there's a slightly higher chance
>we'll have similar tastes (By the way it frightened me the first time I
>saw your page because our opinions on various things/taste in
>music/etc.. were very close to my own)]
>
>Again, why is it a concern?
Well, I've never known many bright and cool people, period, and I suppose I
always wished I knew people who didn't think I was some kind of hyper-deviant
alien who read "weird" books and listened to "weird" music. Colour me an
idealist, I guess, but it seemed for a brief spell that goths would necessarily
be easier to relate to. Not so...
>> I consciously avoid using the word "goth" in my AOL profile.
>
>I consciously avoid using the word goth. ;)
>
>Labels are things other people are supposed to attach to you, not things
>you utilize to define yourself (they're virtually useless in that
>respect).
I think I explained that bit elsewhere...it was something that was attached to
me, in the beginning. I got used to it and found it was a quick and easy way to
sum up most of the important things.
(snip)
>> It feels like someone sucked all the Art out of goth a few
>> years ago and all the future holds is things like Switchblade Symphony >
>and Orgy
>
>Are you sure you're not just romanticing the past? Just curious
>perceptions are easy things to screw with when you're hearing "Clown"
>for the thousanth time.
>
>How much art has there actually been?
Oh, there's always been good alongside the bad--I never liked the Mission or
All About Eve, but Bauhaus and Joy Division were pretty brilliant even outside
of the fact that they're "goth." That's the litmus test, IMHO...would I like
this book/band/whatever if it *wasn't* aimed at goths? I suppose there's more
stuff failing the test because there's more goth-geared stuff out there now,
it's true, but that just means it's more important for the crap to be
counteracted. IMHO again.
>> I like the same things I've always liked, but most of the bands I love are
>> broken up and nothing nearly as good has come to take their place;
>
>Agreed wholeheartedly.
>
>> I don't want to be associated with people that vapid.
>
>Admittedly all of the "goths" <What's a goth? Hyuk> I know personally
>are people from online and they are wonderful, wonderful people.
>
>I've met 2 goths other than that. 1 of them kept going on about how
>their house was haunted and other such stuff. The other one was talking
>about how "these sorts" of goths (meaning non-'Victorians') aren't the
>REAL GOTHS and are ruining the scene. I don't want to be associated with
>them, but I do adore the listmeet people. [Some names you'll recognize:
>Silentq, Siobhan, Axel, Capser].
Well, the netgoths I know and remain friends with (or friendly, at least) are
wonderful people, and then there's all the Others. The ones who ask me if I
like to drink blood too. Or greet me with "happy Halloween" when it's not, and
so forth. The reallyreally *dumb* ones.
The RL goths I've known (around 6, plus a few sortabutnotreallys who don't call
themselves goth) have run the gamut from very cool to downright psychotic.
>> (btw, I don't think all goths are idiots, just that the proportion of
>idiots
>> who are goths seems to have risen dramatically in the past few years)
>
>I can't help but agree with that, but I think that's due quite strongly
>to the number of goths rising dramatically in the past few years. I
>mean, case in point this newgroup.
>
>Anyway, goths aren't real people; I'm sixty percent black papier mache.
heehee.
Lorelei, wasting time whilst writing my sociology paper on deviance (I went to
an academic website w/links pertaining to deviance and found a link to the
NYCgoth site listed under "Satanism and Satanic Crime"!!!)
Edvamp
>>the
>>goddamn Crow tv show.
That has nothing to do with being goth or not being goth. That has to do
with having taste. As I have tried to point out on numerous occassions, being
goth is not about liking or doing X, Y and Z. Take the aspects you like and
leave the rest, like a salad bar.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
posby
XloreleiX wrote in message <19990516162723...@ng24.aol.com>...
>>What I wish is that there was a little more 'quality control' going on.
Maybe
>my art student-ness is showing, but I wish there was more genuine
creativity in
>goth music and imagery, instead of the attitude that all things dark and
>spooky=goth. I think, for example, that Projekt has the right idea. I wish
>there was more of a dark avant-garde movement happening, something that
would
>require a bit more thought and would turn off the kids who just wanna look
>"freaky". Or perhaps there is, and I'm just not cool enough to know about
it (I
>suppose the experimental/noise scene supplies this to some degree, which I
like
>to a degree, but I get a headache if I try to listen to a whole Whitehouse
>album)
It's all become a cliche of a cliche.
There _are_ some genuinely good and interesting bands out there...
Ivoux, The Moon Lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud, Stella Mara, Rhea's Obsession,
My Scarlet Life...
But I've always had an ear for the ehtereal, so perhaps that's not what you
mean.
As far as the "goth sound" goes. Who decided that every male goth band on
the planet had to be a direct rip-off of <insert classic goth band of
choice>?
Aside from Theatre of Tregedy, I have yet to hear a CD by a male fronted
band that doesn't fall into the big bad stereotypical sound. But even
Theatre of Tragedy use female vocals as well...
And I'm talking new bands.
But there are bands like Legendary Pink Dots who have been going strong for
many many years who fall into that fringe group, as well as their
side-project The Tear Garden.
Unfortunately, it seems any of the real interesting avant-garde type music
that was being produced was happening in the 80's (at least that which
would fall into the fringe-goth genre... things like Durutti Column, for
example.)
Maybe _I'm_ getting old, but it's becoming harder and harder to wade through
the mire and find the gems - though they do exist.
I just don't have the time to listen to a zillion CDs every time I go
shopping, and I'm too damned picky to up and order something just because
the description in whatever review or catalog sounds good.
I've learned my lesson there...
-Posbina
posby
XloreleiX wrote in message <19990516193030...@ng22.aol.com>...
>>>True, like so much other goth-oriented media, it indeed reeks. This is
what I
>don't get. Goth! In theory, it should offer a whole world of fantastic
>possibilities...so why does the execution usually disappoint (or is it just
>me)?
it's not just you. It's because people get _sooo_ stuck on what they
thing the goth that is the lable is supposed to be, that they look past
anything that might possibly simply be something that would appeal to people
who happen to fit the lable.
Personally, I could name a number of films that could be considered goth,
and are so considered not because someone had to go to all this effort to
compartmentalize them and make them so, but because they are simply
beautiful or full of subject matter that would appeal to most of us (that
most probably being a lot smaller than it was a few years ago, judging by
how hard it is to strike up a conversation about films other than those
which are meant to be goth.)
here are just a few.
Elizabeth
Immortal Beloved
The Piano
Dante's Inferno (and just about any other Ken Russel film, now that I think
of it...)
City of Lost Children
I could go on, but you get the point...
>
>Well, I've never known many bright and cool people, period, and I suppose I
>always wished I knew people who didn't think I was some kind of
hyper-deviant
>alien who read "weird" books and listened to "weird" music. Colour me an
>idealist, I guess, but it seemed for a brief spell that goths would
necessarily
>be easier to relate to. Not so...
some of them are, but usually they are the ones who are who they are and
just happen to be goth.
Not the ones whose whole life revolves around being goth and making fun of
anything that doesn't fit the mold.
It gets to be a little more than tiresome... But at least there are good
souls to be found on a.g.
I've about given up trying to have a conversation with most of the goths I
meet IRL around here.
If it doesn't center around the petty dramas, they don't know about it.
*sigh*
I miss being a freaky art student mixed in with a bunch of other freaky art
students whose tastes all overlapped and cross pollinated.
>>.
>
>Lorelei, wasting time whilst writing my sociology paper on deviance (I went
to
>an academic website w/links pertaining to deviance and found a link to the
>NYCgoth site listed under "Satanism and Satanic Crime"!!!)
>
*sigh*
>"Wow! They have Nick Cave dolls now? I want one!"~Bongwater
*giggle*
-Posbina
Sleepycat
> Geez, you're making some of us feel stupid now
> (Lost me after Defenders of Nascent Canon) ;)
>
>
> Oonh wrote:
He's defending Wittgenstein's concept of family resemblance as an antidote
to the alternate concept of essential pre-definitionism, and using it to
comment on the futility of the deliberate ossification of the subcultural
conformity norm in opposition to the process of continual re-definition.
HTH.
(*smacks self on paws*)
----///---- Kevin J. Bonham (Sleepycat) ----///----
"Sleepycat and Friends" will be off air 24 April - 6 June. The Broadcasting
Tribunal have suspending the show, claiming the Sleepycat character is too
inactive and encourages laziness.
The Madd Hatter
I guess would make more sense to me. What is a Nascent Canon? Does it
have to do with Physics or Social Philosphy?
olivia wrote:
>
> The Madd Hatter wrote:
> >
> > Geez, you're making some of us feel stupid now
> > (Lost me after Defenders of Nascent Canon) ;)
>
XloreleiX
>It's all become a cliche of a cliche.
>There _are_ some genuinely good and interesting bands out there...
>Ivoux, The Moon Lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud, Stella Mara, Rhea's Obsession,
>My Scarlet Life...
>But I've always had an ear for the ehtereal, so perhaps that's not what you
>mean.
No...TMLHBAC, from what I've heard, is the kind of direction I'm talking
about--I can't really see them as being part of the goth scene, and yet it's
what I wish more goth bands aspired to--same with all the weird esoteric
European "fringe" bands. I guess that's my point (took me long enough to get to
it, I know ;) )--why aren't *they* the bands that everyone recognises as
"goth," instead of a long parade of mediocre Sisters ripoffs with nothing to
say and no new way of saying it?
And ethereal stuff is ok with me...but I've heard very few newish bands that I
didn't end up thinking was a poor man's Cocteau Twins or DCD. Exceptions would
be some of the Projekt bands, maybe Amber Asylum...
>As far as the "goth sound" goes. Who decided that every male goth band on
>the planet had to be a direct rip-off of <insert classic goth band of
>choice>?
>Aside from Theatre of Tregedy, I have yet to hear a CD by a male fronted
>band that doesn't fall into the big bad stereotypical sound. But even
>Theatre of Tragedy use female vocals as well...
>And I'm talking new bands.
hmm...if we're talking "gothcore" bands, I can't think of any, either. But
they're all SoM and Christian Death ripoffs, anyhow. :)
>But there are bands like Legendary Pink Dots who have been going strong for
>many many years who fall into that fringe group, as well as their
>side-project The Tear Garden.
>
>Unfortunately, it seems any of the real interesting avant-garde type music
>that was being produced was happening in the 80's (at least that which
>would fall into the fringe-goth genre... things like Durutti Column, for
>example.)
yum! Although a lot of those like-minded bands are still going (LPD,
Einsturzende Neubauten, In The Nursery, Coil, C93, DIJ, Swans...if not in
Swan-form, anyhow, etc), and are still making interesting music, though it's
not nearly so radical anymore. I guess everyone gets old eventually, or starts
repeating themselves because they've already said what they had to say...
>Maybe _I'm_ getting old, but it's becoming harder and harder to wade through
>the mire and find the gems - though they do exist.
>I just don't have the time to listen to a zillion CDs every time I go
>shopping, and I'm too damned picky to up and order something just because
>the description in whatever review or catalog sounds good.
>I've learned my lesson there...
I think we all have...
~Lorelei~
* * * * * * *
"Wow! They have Nick Cave dolls now? I want one!"~Bongwater
posby
XloreleiX wrote in message <19990517052300...@ng-da1.aol.com>...
>posby wrote:
>
>>But I've always had an ear for the ehtereal, so perhaps that's not what
you
>>mean.
>
>No...TMLHBAC, from what I've heard, is the kind of direction I'm talking
>about--I can't really see them as being part of the goth scene, and yet
it's
>what I wish more goth bands aspired to--same with all the weird esoteric
>European "fringe" bands. I guess that's my point (took me long enough to
get to
>it, I know ;) )--why aren't *they* the bands that everyone recognises as
>"goth," instead of a long parade of mediocre Sisters ripoffs with nothing
to
>say and no new way of saying it?
I've often thought the same thing. Before I started going out a lot and
paying attention to what it was "everyone" was listening to for the purpose
of the various club DJ gigs I had, I thought _everyone_ must love Coil, Bel
Canto, Area, and various other "fringe" bands that my college radio DJ pals
and I adored.
A good portion of our art department friends listened to our shows, and even
went to see Zoviet France with us... Because of this, I thought that surely
the uber cool goths would know the bands I knew, and even think them passe.
Needless to say, 1993 was the year I learned differently.
Of course, I was fortunate to grow up with good college radio. Bands like
Swans and Coil were fed to me on a silver spoon in 1987, and I ate up every
glorious minute of it. Alone. The only other people i knew then when even
knew what bands I was talking about were the people playing my requests and
giving me record titles.
But would you really be happy if _everyone_ liked TMLHBC? Yeah, it'd be
nice if more people liked them... but... I think it's always been this
way. There are those who like the mainstream sound of whatever genre of
music, and then there are those who somehow get exposed to and love the
stuff that nobody knows about.
My husband has recently started collecting records by some of the bands that
influenced bands like Current 93 and legendary pink dots. totally strange
progressive/avant-rock stuff. That nobody knew about...
>
>And ethereal stuff is ok with me...but I've heard very few newish bands
that I
>didn't end up thinking was a poor man's Cocteau Twins or DCD. Exceptions
would
>be some of the Projekt bands, maybe Amber Asylum...
>
I adore Amber Asylum. But I also don't mind the DCD or Cocteau Twins
sound when done well.
I really like bands like Rhea's Obsession or Faith and the Muse that have
obvious 70's folk-rock influences (early Steeleye Span or Fairport
Convention, to name the better known... )
>
>yum! Although a lot of those like-minded bands are still going (LPD,
>Einsturzende Neubauten, In The Nursery, Coil, C93, DIJ, Swans...if not in
>Swan-form, anyhow, etc), and are still making interesting music, though
it's
>not nearly so radical anymore. I guess everyone gets old eventually, or
starts
>repeating themselves because they've already said what they had to say...
But is it not as radical because you've become used to the sound, or
because the sound has changed?
Personally, I don't think LPD have sounded better than they do in their
current state.
Though the last C93 left a bit to be desired... it was too... static.
*shrug*
I'm just goofy girl with strange tastes who happens to like spooky stuff and
read far too many books when she was a kid.
-Posbina
"Talent is a vampire. Talent is a whore..." -Bongwater
olivia
Jetrock wrote:
> welcome to the world of what happens when the Pinks discover your scene.
> I've been through this particular irritant several times now, and it's
> never particularly pleasant.
<..>
> But then again, when I got into metal in 1984 or so, I never would have
> predicted that metal would be mainstreamed within a few years (albeit by
> garbage bands like Winger, Whitesnake, Guns & Roses, Poison, etc.) When I
> ran from metal into the punk scene around 1987-88, I figured that stuff
> would never be popular--until a few years when garbage bands like the
> Offspring and Green Day hit the mainstream Top 40. So a few years ago I
> started drifting away from the charred remains of the punk scene and
> swung more towards the gothic/industrial scene and liked it. And now look
> what happens--again, a scene gets misrepresented by a few bands, and the
> lemmings run in and mess it all up.
>
> Wait a while, it'll pass, the few interesting people will hang around and
> the lemmings will go bombard whatever scene comes next. Personally I'm
> getting more into my noise/experimental stuff because I figure there is no
> way that the mass-mind of teen jocks will EVER start rocking out to
> Merzbow or the Haters.
seems to me you're just a lemming running the other way.
which is fine and dandy if that's your thing.
olivia
Other wrote:
<..>
> I'm serious about goth to the mundies, but with other goths it is
> joke.
i've never really understood the whole gothic = joke thing.
beauty is something i take seriously. people don't take enough
things seriously.
goths = joke, yes. this i can see.
Robert Vincent
Sheryl Kirby (she...@stainedproductions.com) writes:
>
> I think the problem arises when we start thinking of Goth as *just* that
> cliched style. I still consider myself Goth, even though lately my look is
> much more reminiscent of a black-clad socialite raver chick. (Big sneakers,
> long black t-shirt dress with a hood, blonde hair and big sunglasses.) Maybe
> it's because I'm getting older, but "looking cool" to impress my friends has
> become less and less important. I realized that if I'm going to walk to and
> from work every day, and home and back again at lunch to feed to puppy, I
> cannot do it in big-ass boots. Out come the white socks and runners... fuck
> fashion, comfort and getting home to my furry little boy are far more
> important. But do I still consider myself "Goth"... you betcha.
Thanks for putting my mind at rest, Sheryl. It sounds silly, but I've been
worried for some time now as to whether I was some sort of poseur for
calling myself Goth, even though all I was being was myself ... I mean, I
love the people, but wasn't sure that I really fit in (I don't dress Goth
24-7, no tatoos or piercings, don't particularly care for Industrial
music, not wild about horror or vampire lit/film) but still felt such an
affinity for Goth. I guess it is a case of me defining my own take on the
style, not the style defining me.
Rainmaker
--
Elijah Snow : It's a strange world
Jakita Wagner : Let's keep it that way
Planetary #1
I think we've all learned something here! - Sam & Max
Other
>Other wrote:
>
><..>
>> I'm serious about goth to the mundies, but with other goths it is
>> joke.
>
>i've never really understood the whole gothic = joke thing.
>beauty is something i take seriously. people don't take enough
>things seriously.
Perhaps I laugh at the beautiful becuase I am Not One Of Them.
Pure envy.
Nah. Their antics are too entertianing. ;)
>goths = joke, yes. this i can see.
I was having a confrence with a dear friend of mine and he was talking
about this film that he was planning on purchasing that pictured
exceedingly disturbing scenes juxtaposed with other images that were
complementory and enhanced the disturbingness. He asked if I wanted to
see it and I told him I didn't. He then called my "gothic credibility"
in to question, I was *supposed* to like this sort of thing. I got
pretty hot about that, because someone "outside" was belittling
something that I treasured. This whet on for a bit until I realized
how stupid I was being. I then laughed and shared the reasons for my
stupidity with my friend.
I was on delayed joke response on that one. ;)
Oonh
> I guess would make more sense to me. What is a Nascent Canon? Does it
> have to do with Physics or Social Philosphy?
They are defined to be those people who take to heart the insides
of a circle and try to protect its integrity from the rest of the
influences. Now there are two problems with this view, both are
self referential.
To call them "Defenders of the Nascent Canon", or "Roxygrelb",
or even (heaven forbid) "Lallystatic Anticrastifracters" is
to draw a circle around them and remove their unnamed charm.
That was the first self referential bit. Here is the second.
Since they don't get named or lumped into a group, and since
different pathways (people who defend whatever, no matter
how recent or old it is from influences), manage to be accomplishing
the same goal with different materials and people.
Oonh
Oonh
> I can understand the rest of the context but I would like to know what a
> Nascent Canon is so it would process through my head here.
You know, this is very funny considering your quiz post.
Oonh
Marjorie
Besides everyone knows that the truly cool people didn't like The Crow
at all, except maybe the comic book and that only years before they
thought of making it into a movie.
;-)
-Marjorie
Mike Lane
wrote:
>here's what happens:
>
>bunches of random things
>have irregular blobs drawn around them
>then those blobs are given names
>those names become systems, become a canon.
>
>some staunchly defend nascent canons.
>others keep seeing the blob stage
>The Defenders of Nascent Canons (now
>I draw my little circle for a self
>referential joke) impart thermodynamics
>to these blobs. They become like cells,
>or systems. Subject to the second
>law, without aggregation or inflow,
>they stagnate and die. So don't draw
>the circle, and live.
>
>
>The funny thing here is that without
>really trying the Defenders of Nascent
>Canons manage to be contradictory:
>there will always be people who
>start, in any century and in any time.
>So there's always an inflow, and
>there system remains stable.
>
>
>
> Oonh
Knapik, is that you?
--
ML
Support Steve Kidwell, Founding Member, PusBag Cabal
www.midwestsupplements.com
------
"We come to find love not by finding the perfect person,
but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly"
Marcus Pan
> Knapik, is that you?
After a half dozen posts of shite of this nature, one-liners,
uninteresting tidbits, etc, so far you're making out to be a troll.
--
===>StealthGoth Pan<===A.G.S-F US East!
The Pan Pages - http://www.zenweb.com/pan
Net.Goth Directory - http://www.zenweb.com/pan/netgoth
Legends Online - http://www.zenweb.com/pan/legends
TSM
>anyway). I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
>Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books. I would much rather watch the Simpsons than the
>goddamn Crow tv show.
No one with any sense likes
the TV version of The Crow.
<Look, if you just got really offended right then,
let me be the first to tell you that you have
-awful- taste. Go read a book.>
I hate fuckin' Anne Rice, too.
I turned 20 any everything she wrote
suddenly lost all it's mystique
not that a middle-aged woman's male homoerotic
fantasies ever had much in the way of mystique.
I respect Brite's ability to describe
what having your hand inside a dead body feels like,
but then I'm forced to ask myself what's the
point of -reading- the same material I could get out
of a "Faces of Death" marathon.
At least that way I can drink a beer at the same
time and make fun of it with my freinds.
I like the Simpsons.
I like Futurama, too.
I really dig the squid-guy.
My most listened-to CD as of late is
Motorhead '78-'84.
Down in NOLA,
I was the guy whom,
as Lord Biran so eloquently put it to me,
made the bold blue-denim statement
at the meet and greet.
But despite all this,
I'll still gladly describe myself as a Goth.
>It's dawned on me that most goths are no more interesting or intelligent than
>anyone else, and a whole lot of them are dumber than rocks. I consciously avoid
>using the word "goth" in my AOL profile because it attracts morons en masse
>("do u like SoM"). It feels like someone sucked all the Art out of goth a few
>years ago and all the future holds is things like Switchblade Symphony and
>Orgy...I find it almost embarrassing that my middle-aged coworkers know what
>"goth" is now (sort of) and can identify me as one. Because, you know, they
>only learned that word after seeing "shock rocker Marilyn Manson" on the
>news... anyway, it's become tedious.
I've come to the decision that a subculture,
assuming you're doing it right,
is something you do exclusively for yourself.
I don't dress-out too much anymore,
who are these people that I have to impress them?
I already -know- I'm an impressive sonofabitch.
If people think I'm a geek or whatever,
fine,
that's no great loss.
I've found that now that I've adopted this philosiphy,
my good friends are at least as impressive as I am.
It's neat.
Part of this thing is not giving a
shit what people think about you.
As for them "knowing" what a goth is,
okay.
You "know" what the sun is and where to find it,
but we still can't tell one-another how it works.
People knowing the name of your poison is
off-putting, I'll give you that.
It's like someone knowing your club's secret handshake,
but it's still a mystery to these people even
if they don't know it themselves.
>whatsisface looked in his plastic cape at the club...maybe I'm a big snob, but
>I don't want to be associated with people that vapid. When did "goth" turn into
>a synonym for "idiot"? Maybe it's time to move on to Eurotrash or Art Fag 'cos
>goth doesn't seem like much fun these days...
This past generation saw old hippies.
The generations to come will see old deathrockers.
What I'm getting at is that there are always
going to be people who latch onto the "next big thing"
and put money in the coffers of establishments such as Hot Topic.
Once again,
who gives a -damn-?
These people are assholes,
They will never reach a point where they are not assholes.
You, you'll never reach a point where you don't
like your art and your Miranda.
Will you ever stop liking black clothes?
Will you ever prefer day to night?
Will you change?
Culture-bunnies will fade away,
we will shine on,
well,
maybe "shine" isn't the right word. . .
As for the detractors,
if they'll just make that knee-jerk assumption that you're
a moron just because of the way you dress,
I say again,
who cares what they think?
I cannot emphasize enough the inherent importance
of the proverbial Six-Pack of Fuck It.
<Alternately:
24 pack of I-don't-give-a-good-Goddamn,
and the Keg of I don't care.>
Not to put words in your mouth,
but I'd think that you're not tired
of the goth-bit so much as you're
tired of people in general,
which is nothing new,
and probably makes you a better person anyway.
>~Lorelei~
--TSM
oddlystrange
xlor...@aol.combatrock (XloreleiX) wrote:
> ..or maybe I've just overdosed on it. Or outgrown it, maybe, but mostly
I don't
> like what it's become.
I went through a funk like this a while ago.. Until I realised it doesn't
MATTER if your goth, if you like goth or whatever. You will be whatever
you end up being, do not let youself be defined within the narrow
definition of what YOU define as goth.
the problem with trying to define yourself is eventually you are confined
within the defintion.
Be goth, don't be goth.
Enjoy yourself in the meantime.
oddlystrange
(who is goth just cause its there or something like that)
--
the godmother of perkygoff has been deemed MOSTLY HARMLESS
_Requisite Homepage URL: <http://www.obscure.org/~perky>_
QUOTE: "Words are useless, especially sentences" -- Bjork
$$ gur Bapr naq Sberire Dhrra $$
Oonh
> If a canon fell in the woods and there were no neurons to register its
> existance would it make a paradigm? Maybe I'm skipping ahead.
Pachelbel would most likely commit bloody murder with a small
piece of inoffensive cellophane.
> Don't you mean sphere? A circle covers precious little of the surface
> area of the system unless one lives in a two dimensional universe.
> And why did you skip the development constraints of the the zeroth and
> first law? Details my friend.....it is all in the details. Why do
> you tease me so!!??
I don't have to give out details, unless you want Kustom Paint
Streaks.
>>
>>The funny thing here is that without
>>really trying the Defenders of Nascent
>>Canons manage to be contradictory:
>>there will always be people who
>>start, in any century and in any time.
>>So there's always an inflow, and
>>there system remains stable.
> But exactly which blobs are in thermal equilibrium? Who are the
> conspiratory blobs?? WHO?? WHO DAMN IT?!?
No one. You care too much. I suppose you're from the
same ghola tree as Billy Mitchell.
Oonh
Ron Cecchini
incen...@earthlink.net (TSM) wrote:
> No one with any sense likes
> the TV version of The Crow.
BAH!
i may be lactose intolerant, but i loves that *cheeeese*!
Crow!Crow!Crow!
Plus, it's on right before Psi Factor, so i'm already "in place".
> <Look, if you just got really offended right then,
> let me be the first to tell you that you have
> -awful- taste.
Well, look who i hang out with...
> Go read a book.>
What is that??
][
David Gerard
:Labels are things other people are supposed to attach to you, not things
:you utilize to define yourself (they're virtually useless in that
:respect).
:The best way I've found to throw people off is if they ask you if you're
:a goth, ask them what's a goth. Hilarious results have yet to fail me.
Those last two sentences should be in the FAQ under 'What Is Goth?'.
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ http://xenu.netizen.com.au/
ALERT! Australian government attempts to censor Australian internet out of
existence! - See http://www.efa.org.au/ for the gory details ...
David Gerard
:Other wrote:
:> I'm serious about goth to the mundies, but with other goths it is
:> joke.
:i've never really understood the whole gothic = joke thing.
:beauty is something i take seriously. people don't take enough
:things seriously.
:goths = joke, yes. this i can see.
Yes. Beauty is important. People are endlessly amusing. [1]
[1] in some cases, of course, you may need a spit and an open fire.
Grimm
decree:
>..or maybe I've just overdosed on it. Or outgrown it, maybe, but mostly I don't
>like what it's become. I think most goth bands are fuggin' horrible
You know, I came to that conclusion myself ;). There aren't many
bands that could be labled as purely goth that I like. Bauhaus, some
Sisters, some Swans...granted, I'm not an expert, but most modern goth
bands seem to write the same bloodly thing. Besides Bauhaus, my
favourite bands aren't goth (unless you count Nick Cave. I don't.).
For the most part, I'd rather listen to something like Tool than say,
Corups Delecti.
> I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
>Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books. I would much rather watch the Simpsons than the
>goddamn Crow tv show.
Not much of a Poppy Z. fan myself. Bought one paperback, read a bit
of it, and put it down.
Is it possible to like the Crow tv show? ::shudder::
*snip*
I consider myself lucky; the only goths I've come in contact with are
the ones here, and really, there's a lot of diversity and intelligence
in this group.
Though I haven't been around for a while, and for all I know, it could
be overrun with morons who profess 'Ah cut myself to bleed mah inner
anguish out!' . Wait. There have been a lot of trolls lately...
>I like the same things I've always liked, but most of the bands I love are
>broken up and nothing nearly as good has come to take their place; most of the
>"goths" I've encountered in the past couple years ago don't really care about
>art or creativity or expanding their mind beyond their tiny gothworld at all,
>only about how much stuff they bought at Le Spooky Goth Shoppe last weekend,
>and how kinky they think they are (yeah, sure you are), and how lame
>whatsisface looked in his plastic cape at the club...
See, the thing is, there are idiots in every subculture. God knows we
have our fair share of wankers. But there are also people worth
knowing. The same can be said about any culture, really. You just
have to make friends with the people who interest you; who have
something to offer. What it ends up coming down to is this - change
your taste in music. Change your method of dress. Or not. It
doesn't matter; you will still be you, and you'll still have friends
here.
"Dogs fucked the pope.
No fault of mine."
-Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
Jeff Blanks
> ...I know what goth meant to me and what everyone else thought
> used to matter naught.
So what's the problem??
> It just seems like the rest of
> the world--the "nouveaux goth" and the non-goths just starting to grasp
what it
> is--has decided that goth is something altogether craptacularly different,
Umm... <twiddles thumbs behind back, guiltily diverts gaze, tries to whistle>
> which is fine for them, but I'm not sure if there's any point in reading goth
> newsgroups, reading goth magazines, seeking out goth music, etc.--bothering
> with "goth," period, when I feel 180 degrees away from the rest of it.
Well, then, just set up Your Very Own Goth Subgenre!!! "XloreleiX-Goth"!! ;-)
Oh, and try these, too:
http://members.aol.com/strngout/index.html
http://www.iuma.com/Braindance/
http://www.totalzoo.com/present/
These are _not_ "Goth bands" (even if Braindance has decided after the
fact to go explicitly for the Goth crowd), but maybe they realize some of
the "fantastic possibilities" you're envisioning for the Goth scene.
> Yes, a lot of what I
> like is goth-friendly, but "goth rock" it is not. My point is that this
is just
> one more area wherein I feel alienated from "goth" (that word again!).
OTOH, I think it's been suggested that "Goth music" is simply whatever
music Goths tend to listen to, so maybe "goth-friendly" and "goth rock"
could be synonymous after all.
> True, like so much other goth-oriented media, it indeed reeks. This is what I
> don't get. Goth! In theory, it should offer a whole world of fantastic
> possibilities...so why does the execution usually disappoint (or is it just
> me)?
(PERSONAL NOTE: My alienation kept me away from the scene for
_years_--ever since its inception, as a matter of fact. Eventually (like,
_last_year_), I just decided to put that alienation aside and not worry
about who might think I _ought_not_to_be_here_. I've always been
interested in Goth _as_an_abstraction_ (or as someone else said here
months ago, an aesthetic theme), and I _know_ I can contribute something
to _that_. The "Goth music" I listen to is the stuff in _my_head_, and
_that_ doesn't sound very much like SoM, Bauhaus, or Joy Division. One of
these days I need to stop procrastinating and get some of it on tape, but
since it can be pretty complex harmonically and/or rhythmically, it's very
hard to _write_ I can't just bang out three chords (whatever those chords
might sound like) and call that a song; I wind up niggling over every note
of every chord.)
Anyway... My answer is that since the Goth scene came out of punk, it's
been saddled with punk's value system, where regard for musical or
technical craft is actually considered a _vice_ to a great extent. That
isn't true when it comes to clothes, writing, or the visual arts; for some
reason, the sort of anti-virtuosic attitude that would be considered
downright touched-in-the-head anywhere else is considered a virtue when it
comes to music, supposedly the center of popular culture. But that
doesn't make for a culture that discovers very much.
> ...I've never known many bright and cool people, period, and I suppose I
> always wished I knew people who didn't think I was some kind of hyper-deviant
> alien who read "weird" books and listened to "weird" music. Colour me an
> idealist, I guess, but it seemed for a brief spell that goths would
necessarily
> be easier to relate to. Not so...
Fortunately for me, I've had better luck.
> ...it was something that was attached to
> me, in the beginning. I got used to it and found it was a quick and easy
way to
> sum up most of the important things.
I've never called myself a Goth, but I've been called one once or twice.
But then that just was a case of normals reacting to a really-dressed-up
PIB with whiteface on. (I remember this fairly-Goth-herself woman telling
me I "looked like Death," and I knew she meant it as a compliment.) ;-)
> I suppose there's more
> stuff failing the test because there's more goth-geared stuff out there now,
Hey--Sturgeon's Law.
> it's true, but that just means it's more important for the crap to be
> counteracted.
I hope I'll be able to help out one day, then. And with that, I suppose
I'll debut a new .sig file. Hey--stuck-up arrogance is GAF, right?? ;-)
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some strangeness in the proportion." --Francis Bacon
Grimm
decree:
> I like the Simpsons.
> I like Futurama, too.
> I really dig the squid-guy.
The squid guy *is* pretty cool, but no one in any Matt Groening show
comes even close to the coolness of Bender. (except maybe Monty
Burns). I really like the Mom idea, too.
'Now I'm off to some charity auction for knocked up teenage sluts'.
XloreleiX
>xlor...@aol.combatrock (XloreleiX) wrote:
>
>> ...I know what goth meant to me and what everyone else thought
>> used to matter naught.
>
>So what's the problem??
I don't know--obviously I'm not expressing it very well. My disillusionment
really has absolutely nothing to do with the label 'goth' as it applies to me
or you or the subculture at large. I'm having an ennui crisis, not an identity
crisis. It's not Goth's fault, I know. ;) But when I try to figure out how to
get over it, all I can think of is that I need something fabulous and new in my
life...and that the future can never be as exciting as it seemed in the
beginning, so maybe goth isn't ever going to be the place where I find
fabulosity and newness again.
No, I'm still not explaining this very well, sorry.
XloreleiX
>Though I haven't been around for a while, and for all I know, it could
>be overrun with morons who profess 'Ah cut myself to bleed mah inner
>anguish out!' . Wait. There have been a lot of trolls lately...
"Ah wash myself with a rag on a stick" ;P
>See, the thing is, there are idiots in every subculture. God knows we
>have our fair share of wankers. But there are also people worth
>knowing. The same can be said about any culture, really. You just
>have to make friends with the people who interest you; who have
>something to offer.
I know...maybe I just wish real life was that easy. How come there are *so
many* wankers, and all that. Anyway, ok, yeah, I realise there are decent (and
occasionally even better than decent) people around...I don't like to admit it,
though, it detracts from my cool misanthropic demeanour. ;)
(wow, you're like, here and stuff!)
ro...@elis.demon.co.uk
>welcome to the world of what happens when the Pinks discover your scene.
>I've been through this particular irritant several times now, and it's
>never particularly pleasant.
I've yet to see a U.K. scene get "invaded". -Most goth events over
here are held in such charmingly scuzzy and 'orrible places that your
average trendy runs out with its jaw dropped. The only real problem is that
a lot of the younger members start off with a very fixed idea of what goth is
meant to be, so they are easily shocked, scandalised and provoked into
bitching. Not knowing what the hell goth is meant to be or whether you even
like it that much is a good sign. :)
I might try it the other way around. An allegedly "alternative" club
has started up in my town (i.e. cheezy metal, Run D.M.C. haven't died yet)
and some of the punters have "potential". Bouncing around to Korn in lousy
make-up may not be ideal, but it's a start. -It's infinitely better than
swarming around theme-pub hell a few streets away. Since they haven't been
exposed to anything more interesting, I might consider doing a bit of
flyering. We have an excellent (but latent) goth/industrial D.J. and one of
the current idiots could easily be, ahem "disposed of". All it needs is a
kick start and the scene could become quite healthy again.
>Offspring and Green Day hit the mainstream Top 40. So a few years ago I
>started drifting away from the charred remains of the punk scene and
>swung more towards the gothic/industrial scene and liked it. And now look
>what happens--again, a scene gets misrepresented by a few bands, and the
>lemmings run in and mess it all up.
As soon as the likes of Goon Day and Offspring went to major labels
they ceased to have much to do with punk, not that the vaccuous "pop-punk"
genre ever did. Yep, I'm a major label snob, and it's no-one's business but
my own. The soul of punk comes from it's D.I.Y. spirit, given some of the
nasty pies some music industry conglomerates have their fingers in, most
of the overtly political stuff wouldn't emerge any other way. Even the non
-political garage stuff I listen to is extremely fierce about holding on to
it's independence. (That being said, despite my lack of enthusiasm for
hardcore I wouldn't mind giving the new Aus Rotten album a listen.) If I ever
get hold of major label stuff it tends to be second hand, reduced or deleted.
Truly independant releases are usually cheaper and much more fun. The key-
chain and baggy shorts brigade haven't won yet, there's still interesting
material out there, since it's harder to find, it's more enjoyable to look
for.
Since goth bands don't stand a snowflake in hell's chance
commercially, goth is managing to keep to the old punk ethic rather well.
The only culture that is trully goth (except when it gets used as a literary
genre[1]) somes from within the scene. Anything else falls under the category
of "stuff that goths may or may not like", so The Crow becomes an
irrelevance. Disliking half the content within the scene is another matter.
I reckon the U.K. goth scene is getting quite healthy. I haven't seen a
Sisters-clone in ages, (we have to import the likes of the Merry Thoughts
now) and it looks as though we've finally re-discovered how to produce
good, honest nasty pop-songs. (Horatii, Manuskript, Faitfull Dawn, Nervosa
etc...) Slightly more experimental stuff is slowly taking a grip with the
likes of Leisure Hive and Passion Play. As for real noise, it's a shame I
can never find any Leech-Woman.
Personally, I preffer to do my "scene-floating" in the wrong scenes.
Showing up at goth events in a tweed jacket and skinny tie then swanning
round mod shops on Carnaby street in black combats and foundry boots can be
rather amusing. Later this week the Reading goths will invade the local
trance-techno night in *vastly* greater numbers than ever before :)
Have Fun,
"Augeas"
[1] This is one area where goth 'zines could extend their coverage. While
punk 'zines like MRR feature the writing of Noam Chomsky, Carpe-bloody-
Noctern is still full of make-up tips. There used to be something over here
called "Udolpho". Even though it was meant to be a literary 'zine I think it
did run a couple of articles on sub-cultures at one point. That being said,
I still think that half its contributors would recoil in horror if they
knew what half their readership looked like. It mutated into something else,
which is where I lose track. What became of it ? Thank god the days of
photocopied A5 'zines with bad poetry and worse vampire stories are at an
end....
--
* ____________________________ *
* / \ aug...@elis.demon.co.uk \ "I'm only ever punk in drublic, and *
* \/_\ ________________________\__ I'd rather be a gunk than a poth." *
* \/__________________________/ *
Charlotte Ashley
> On 16 May 1999 10:05:44 GMT, xlor...@aol.combatrock (XloreleiX) wrote:
>
>>anyway). I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
>>Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books. I would much rather watch the Simpsons than the
>>goddamn Crow tv show.
>
I don't think you are at *all* alone on that. But Poppy Z is to goth as
John Grisham is to lawyers.... kinda lame, half-assed excitement that
creates wanna-bes.
(um, well, I suppose it has it's points. She discribes purdy people.
*shrugs* ;)
Everything you've described tends towards the lame and superficial... goth
for angsty teens looking to rebel and goth for sociopaths who can't get a
second look anywhere else. It can be fun as, say, a sarcastic trip t the
mall, but it sure doesn't make for a lifestyle...
I gave up wearing black 24/7 and makeup in my sleep ages ago, and thought
I was completely free of the subculture who's reluctance to appreciate
life gave me ulcers, but I still had to come back-
It's more than the interests. The only people who dopn't make faces at my
cynicism and sarcastic sense of humour are goths. The only place I can
find geeks with fashion sense is within goth. Nobody has mastered the art
of self-mockery like goths....
And you have to admit, few subcultures value intelligence and literacy
like goths do... even if the weekenders are less intelligent and liuterate
than they'd like to think. :)
leanan sidhe (less intelligent and literate than she'd like to think)
--
Mysterious are thy laws; http://members.xoom.com/Leanan
The vision's finer then the view;
Her landscape nature never drew
So Fair as Fancy draws.
Mike Lane
>Mike Lane wrote:
>> Knapik, is that you?
>
>After a half dozen posts of shite of this nature, one-liners,
>uninteresting tidbits, etc, so far you're making out to be a troll.
>
What is a troll? I'm new to this room and I don't know what you mean.
If I go over to the AOL internet can I get the same chat room as this
one?
Mike Lane
wrote:
>here's what happens:
>
>bunches of random things
>have irregular blobs drawn around them
>then those blobs are given names
>those names become systems, become a canon.
>
If a canon fell in the woods and there were no neurons to register its
existance would it make a paradigm? Maybe I'm skipping ahead.
>some staunchly defend nascent canons.
>others keep seeing the blob stage
>The Defenders of Nascent Canons (now
>I draw my little circle for a self
>referential joke) impart thermodynamics
>to these blobs. They become like cells,
>or systems. Subject to the second
>law, without aggregation or inflow,
>they stagnate and die. So don't draw
>the circle, and live.
>
Don't you mean sphere? A circle covers precious little of the surface
area of the system unless one lives in a two dimensional universe.
And why did you skip the development constraints of the the zeroth and
first law? Details my friend.....it is all in the details. Why do
you tease me so!!??
>
>The funny thing here is that without
>really trying the Defenders of Nascent
>Canons manage to be contradictory:
>there will always be people who
>start, in any century and in any time.
>So there's always an inflow, and
>there system remains stable.
But exactly which blobs are in thermal equilibrium? Who are the
conspiratory blobs?? WHO?? WHO DAMN IT?!?
Synn
<snipperooo>
> I would rather have a big ol' hole drilled through my skull than read
> Poppy Z. Brite's lame-o books. I would much rather watch the Simpsons
than the
> goddamn Crow tv show.
Well, I don't exactly agree with you on the Poppy Z. thing(don't get me
wrong, I don't *only* read Anne Rice and Poppy Z., but I like their
writing...to each their own), but I agree whole heartedly on the Crow
tv show thing. It bites! But then, that's Corporate America for ya...
> It's dawned on me that most goths are no more interesting or
intelligent than
> anyone else, and a whole lot of them are dumber than rocks.
I can definitely understand this. This is mostly because the scene has
become full of "lemming kids" in the last few years. We can give a
great deal of credit for this to Marilyn Manson, Korn and a few other
shock rockers that have been misconstrued as goth. These lemming kids
don't know the first thing about art or the appreciation there of.
This is apparent in the angst-filled poetry they write, and the casket
strewn drawings they produce. The day I see a high school kid that
went from preppie to surfer, to grunge to "goth" within the span of 2
years appreciating the literature that they are required to read in
English class will be the day I turn "normal".
> I consciously avoid
> using the word "goth" in my AOL profile because it attracts morons en
masse
> ("do u like SoM").
I can thoroughly understand. I get this shit quite often thanks to my
website, and the many webrings I belong to...
Example:Two weeks ago, I went to check my e-mail. I checked the inbox
for the address that is on my site, and I found like 5 e-mails from
kiddies with return addresses like "satan666" and "twiggy69" and
"dopeshow" @soandso.com. I decided I'd take the bait and read them,
since (on a very rare occasion) one of them might be worth the
dignification of a response. I opened the first one, and all this
kiddie had to say was something to the effect of"Huhuh, kewl syte. What
bands do u like? Do u like Manson? I do. UR so Gothic!" deleted...
So I reluctantly read the next and the next, and they were all fairly
similar. I also got things like"RU a satanist?" and "why did u write
in purple? that is so un-goth. u shoulda wrote in red."
deleted.... but that last one goes into that whole taking goth too
seriously, taking oneself too seriously, and that whole elitist 'this
is goth/this is not goth" thing...
<le snippe>
> most of the
> "goths" I've encountered in the past couple years ago don't really
care about
> art or creativity or expanding their mind beyond their tiny gothworld
at all,
> only about how much stuff they bought at Le Spooky Goth Shoppe last
weekend,
> and how kinky they think they are (yeah, sure you are), and how lame
> whatsisface looked in his plastic cape at the club...
Once again, you have lemming kiddies. I know I'm not really one to
judge, especially since my personal philosophy is that goth is what you
make it, but these kiddies don't really sound all that goffy to me.
This is, however, my humble opinion. I've dealt with a lot of these
lemming kiddies in the last few years, and, well, umm, they pretty much
all fit that description.
>maybe I'm a big snob, but
> I don't want to be associated with people that vapid. When did "goth"
turn into
> a synonym for "idiot"?
You're not a snob, you just have standards:) I personally don't like
being lumped into this big gaping hole of shit that the "normals" have
come to consider "goth" either. Another example:I was at Perkins with
some of my SCA buddies, and someone mentioned how annoying goths were.
I kinda jumped on the defensive a little. One girl mentioned that
where she was from, all the goths were in their mid-twenties to mid-
thirties, had no jobs, no lives, and never bathed. They didn't care
about how they looked and all that crap. I then went on my lemming
tirade, explaining how the majority of goths I know, that are what I
would consider goth, are really intelligent, have lives, jobs, families
and are the exact opposite of the "goths" she described...Anyway, I
think "goth" became a synonym for idiot when Marilyn Manson entered the
picture. You know how that worked...Misuse of labels and all that crap.
>Maybe it's time to move on to Eurotrash or Art Fag 'cos
> goth doesn't seem like much fun these days...
Well, if you're dead set on leaving the scene, Art Fag is fun:)...I
have my Art Fag moments, and they've been some of the most fun moments
in my life(but then, my best friend is an Art Fag, so..)
:)
>
> (btw, I don't think all goths are idiots, just that the proportion of
idiots
> who are goths seems to have risen dramatically in the past few years)
The majority of the world are morons, no social group or subculture is
impenetrable...
Synn
Who really doesn't mean to sound like an elitist snotrag.
--
"Know thyself? If I knew myself, I'd run away!"
-Goethe
"Monkey see, monkey do, monkey will destroy you"
-Henry Rollins
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Tetsab
> (haven't I deleted my webpage yet? it's so sucky and
> outdated, I'm ashamed people even look at it...)
Then the fact that I like it shouldn't reflect very well on me as a
person. Besides you're horrifically biased regarding suckyness, though
the outdated bit I can't argue against.
> I'm not sure if there's any point in reading goth
> newsgroups, reading goth magazines, seeking out goth music, bothering
> with "goth," period, when I feel 180 degrees away from the rest of it.
Personal choice naturally. (I see you out there screaming "Thank you
Captain Obvious" but humour me ;) Personally I'd miss you. David G would
miss your Nice Boots musical taste. (Heck, I'd miss your Nice Boots
musical taste but I'm biased 'cause I've got the 10 hole version of your
thigh highs)
All that can be said is it's a case of you take what little you can get
where you can get it. Get an unbelivably huge shit filter until
something breaks and you find the old "artfagish" scene revived in
something else. Perhaps it will never be revived, it seems to have
become too easy to devalutate, package and sell.
In any case you either have the luck to find a small group of people who
you relate to, or you take what little you can get elsewhere, or you
just shut off from it all.
> True. I meant, f'r instance, I would so much rather listen to the new
> Underworld album than anything by, say, the Cruxshadows or the Wake
> or LAM, etc
Underworld isn't for me, but neither are the rest of the bands on that
list. Or Switchblade Symphony, or Nosferatu, or <bunch of others>.
They don't speak to me. There lyrics mean little to me or in the case of
some are astoundingly laughable. I'll just melt my Joy Division albums
from overplaying and suffer that there's not more I like. (But at the
same time when you don't have a dispoable income it's even harder to
find what you like. Woe, well at least it's first on my list).
> Goth! In theory, it should offer a whole world of fantastic
> possibilities...so why does the execution usually disappoint
> (or is it just me)?
Depends on your definition of goth don't it? ;)
I should also specifically ask what goth-orientated media you're talking
about here before I answer with any sort of opinion.
> Well, I've never known many bright and cool people, period, and I suppose I
> always wished I knew people who didn't think I was some kind of hyper-deviant
> alien who read "weird" books and listened to "weird" music.
My best friend is a Backstreet Boy listening, "friends" hair cut
getting, "tommy hilfiger" wearing homophobe.
My other friend refuses to read 'Johnny the Homicidal Manic' because of
the content. She also asked me to stop sending her dirty jokes and blew
up at me with an anti-drug lecture when I made a joke about LSD.
Odd mix we are.
Incidently the first friend isn't a homophobe anymore, after years of me
picking away at her with logic she understood, it wasn't her fault
(whose is it anyway, you aren't born like that) it was naturally her
family background.
I wish that they didn't think the same hyper-deviant thing of me when I
think I'm about as deviant as a glass of freshly squeezed orange juice,
it's very easy for me to forget that most find my perspective on life
*very* differnet.
> Colour me an idealist, I guess, but it seemed for a brief spell
> that goths would necessarily be easier to relate to. Not so...
Naturally some are, I'm one of the aforementioned lucky ones that found
them.
> he ones who ask me if I like to drink blood too. Or greet me with
> "happy Halloween" when it's not, and so forth.
Yet again. Luck on my side. I know none <knock wood> etc..
> Lorelei, wasting time whilst writing my sociology paper on deviance
Tetsab. Procrastinating away from writing her sociology paper on teen
>^..^< rebellion AKA "youth expression". (Some of my survey results were *scary*!)
--
Sig-na-a-ture is dead. http://members.home.net/tetsab/
The bytes have left the bell-tower.
XloreleiX
>XloreleiX wrote:
>
>> (haven't I deleted my webpage yet? it's so sucky and
>> outdated, I'm ashamed people even look at it...)
>
>Then the fact that I like it shouldn't reflect very well on me as a
>person. Besides you're horrifically biased regarding suckyness, though
>the outdated bit I can't argue against.
*sniffle* thanks. I feel like I need some new photos, though, at least a couple
of me tarting about in a cemetery or draped on an altar in a pvc catsuit or
something. ;) And I need remedial HTML lessons, of course.
>> I'm not sure if there's any point in reading goth
>> newsgroups, reading goth magazines, seeking out goth music, bothering
>> with "goth," period, when I feel 180 degrees away from the rest of it.
>
>Personal choice naturally. (I see you out there screaming "Thank you
>Captain Obvious" but humour me ;) Personally I'd miss you. David G would
>miss your Nice Boots musical taste. (Heck, I'd miss your Nice Boots
>musical taste but I'm biased 'cause I've got the 10 hole version of your
>thigh highs)
thank you again, m'dear. I didn't mean to sound like I was threatening to leave
or anything--when I do leave, it will be quietly (it would seem kinda
presumptuous if I made some grand exit), and in the meantime, what else would I
do when I'm at work and dead bored? And I would miss all the nice Adrian Mole
fans. ;)
>All that can be said is it's a case of you take what little you can get
>where you can get it. Get an unbelivably huge shit filter until
>something breaks and you find the old "artfagish" scene revived in
>something else. Perhaps it will never be revived, it seems to have
>become too easy to devalutate, package and sell.
>
>In any case you either have the luck to find a small group of people who
>you relate to, or you take what little you can get elsewhere, or you
>just shut off from it all.
Or you create it yourself just how you like, which I really want to do--I just
need a change of scene so I can have the will to do things again...this place
is killing me. Change is forthcoming, but not nearly soon enough.
>> True. I meant, f'r instance, I would so much rather listen to the new
>> Underworld album than anything by, say, the Cruxshadows or the Wake
>> or LAM, etc
>
>Underworld isn't for me, but neither are the rest of the bands on that
>list. Or Switchblade Symphony, or Nosferatu, or <bunch of others>.
>They don't speak to me. There lyrics mean little to me or in the case of
>some are astoundingly laughable. I'll just melt my Joy Division albums
>from overplaying and suffer that there's not more I like. (But at the
>same time when you don't have a dispoable income it's even harder to
>find what you like. Woe, well at least it's first on my list).
Maybe Joy Division records are all a person really needs, anyhow.
>> Goth! In theory, it should offer a whole world of fantastic
>> possibilities...so why does the execution usually disappoint
>> (or is it just me)?
>
>Depends on your definition of goth don't it? ;)
Ooh, here we go again :)
>I should also specifically ask what goth-orientated media you're talking
>about here before I answer with any sort of opinion.
The books, the films (it's scary to me that I know people just like the Craft
girls), the music that's pushed by all those myriad compilations. It's only
natural that goth would eventually be commodified, but I just wish there
weren't so many people willing to just accept that and let Hot Topic and
Cleopatra spoonfeed them their watered-down, cheapened version of 'goth'. How
can *anyone* think that, for example, Nosferatu is any good at all? Seriously?
>> Well, I've never known many bright and cool people, period, and I suppose I
>> always wished I knew people who didn't think I was some kind of
>hyper-deviant
>> alien who read "weird" books and listened to "weird" music.
>
>My best friend is a Backstreet Boy listening, "friends" hair cut
>getting, "tommy hilfiger" wearing homophobe.
>
>My other friend refuses to read 'Johnny the Homicidal Manic' because of
>the content. She also asked me to stop sending her dirty jokes and blew
>up at me with an anti-drug lecture when I made a joke about LSD.
>
>Odd mix we are.
Hehe. One of my RL friends is a comic geek (he does like JTHM) whose music
taste runs toward Manson (though he's *not* a Mansonite) and Rob Zombie. I
played him a Bauhaus cd once and he asked me which member killed himself.
Another friend is a born-again Christian who listens to Christian
goth/industrial, but it's increasingly difficult for me to be around him. All
that talk about Jesus!
>Incidently the first friend isn't a homophobe anymore, after years of me
>picking away at her with logic she understood, it wasn't her fault
>(whose is it anyway, you aren't born like that) it was naturally her
>family background.
That's pretty cool. It's nice to know that people can eventually open their
mind up, even if it's only a little bit...
>I wish that they didn't think the same hyper-deviant thing of me when I
>think I'm about as deviant as a glass of freshly squeezed orange juice,
>it's very easy for me to forget that most find my perspective on life
>*very* differnet.
It's odd, isn't it. I sometimes wonder how I turned out so very different than
most people with similarly "normal" backgrounds. My cousin did drop me on my
head when I was young.
(snip)
>Tetsab. Procrastinating away from writing her sociology paper on teen
>>^..^< rebellion AKA "youth expression". (Some of my survey results
>were *scary*!)
How so?
FatherHoly
jbl...@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) writes:
>xlor...@aol.combatrock (XloreleiX) wrote:
>> It just seems like the rest of
>> the world--the "nouveaux goth" and the non-goths just starting to grasp
>what it
>> is--has decided that goth is something altogether craptacularly different,
>> which is fine for them, but I'm not sure if there's any point in reading
>goth
>> newsgroups, reading goth magazines, seeking out goth music, etc.--bothering
>> with "goth," period, when I feel 180 degrees away from the rest of it.
You feel 180 degrees opposed to the misconception of what you are supposed to
be? Sounds like you're right on track to me. Pinks understanding cynicism and
black humour has very little to do with understanding the culture I (and
likely, you) are part of. They will no more understand it in 2005 than they
did in 1985.
I never said that I was "gothic" or a "goth". It just seems that most of the
folks whose company I enjoy happen to be people who have interests that have
been defined by others as "goth" or "gothic". And as such, it is a bit easier
fior me to find somewhat like minded folks by using such a label.
>(PERSONAL NOTE: My alienation kept me away from the scene for
>_years_--ever since its inception, as a matter of fact. Eventually (like,
>_last_year_), I just decided to put that alienation aside and not worry
>about who might think I _ought_not_to_be_here_.
Wow. Is this just a mass hallucination or are we all coming back to the tribe?
>> ...I've never known many bright and cool people, period, and I suppose I
>> always wished I knew people who didn't think I was some kind of
>hyper-deviant
Cool. An active intellect is, for me, one of the requisite goth traits.
>> ...it was something that was attached to
>> me, in the beginning. I got used to it and found it was a quick and easy
>way to
>> sum up most of the important things.
Yup.
>> it's true, but that just means it's more important for the crap to be
>> counteracted.
Why do you feel that you have to counter something that actually doesn't apply
to you or yours? You're cool, they're not - that's really all there is to it.
I am not about to let some bible thumping frat boy turd take away the moments I
enjoy smoking pot and listening to Current 93 with folks I give a shit about.
No one should be able to steal your moments either.
Fr. P.P. Holy, OBL
If Christus died for our sins, isn't it a mockery of his
death to fail to commit the very sins he died for?
"Fuck 'em anyway - if they mattered, I would care."
Other
wrote:
~* ultra snip *~
>Hehe. One of my RL friends is a comic geek (he does like JTHM) whose music
>taste runs toward Manson (though he's *not* a Mansonite)
Shocking, they do exist. One thing that you can say for it is that you
can certianly dance to it. The "DOOM....DOOM...DOOM..DOOM...." lyrics
lead themselves to extremes of dance-floor expression which usually
lead me gain more dance floor space than I am entitled to. ;)
> and Rob Zombie.
I'm not a big fan of them. Not too bad, but won't buy the CDs.
> I
>played him a Bauhaus cd once and he asked me which member killed himself.
Hm, I like Bauhaus, not a big big fan, but it doesn't shatter the
eardrums. I don't jump on the floor when I hear most of the catalogue
though. I made it though Bela *once* and have no intention of
repeating the experience.
I like my "New Wave" more than most goth anyway. Perhaps this is why I
like Xymox and such things so much is becuase the resonate with that
chord somewhere *and* appeal to my d00m-c00kieness.
>Another friend is a born-again Christian who listens to Christian
>goth/industrial,
I've seen such things at mp3.com, but haven't had the heart to d/l
them.
Joke: How do you make a song Christian? Replace all references to
girl/boy with Jesus and throw in a couple references to prayer and
God. Voila!
> but it's increasingly difficult for me to be around him. All
>that talk about Jesus!
There was once a person of my aquantence who was such a creature. I
was just coming of my virulent atheist phase due to Personal
Experience, but such prolestetizing was pushing my buttons.
So, I sat his ass down and told him that I believed what I did and he
believed what he did and kindly keep such things to himself unless it
was a subject of general conversation. I explain that I got just as
much from my faith as he did from his and didn't anticipate a brand
change any time in the near future.
Everything was peachy after that, thank the <diety>, else I might have
started slinging back bilbe quotes at him to piss him off. ;)
Dag
>
> I've often thought the same thing. Before I started going out a lot and
>paying attention to what it was "everyone" was listening to for the purpose
>of the various club DJ gigs I had, I thought _everyone_ must love Coil, Bel
>Canto, Area, and various other "fringe" bands that my college radio DJ pals
>and I adored.
Indeed. The dance floor at my local goth club is just like that. It's not
really the DJ's fault though, we have a great DJ with a great taste in music.
But people don't listen to the music when they dance. For example last time
I was there the DJ put on the Spice Girls (He did it to be funny, and he
usually does stuff like that so as such it wasn't that out of the ordinary)
and people kept dancing. Not kept dancing out of self irony or just to be
funny, but kept dancing as if nothing had happened. However at another time
he put on a band called Haus Arrafna, an excellent dark German synth/ethereal
type band, and most people left the dance floor because it was too hard to
dance to. So really people generally don't care what is playing as long as
they can dance to it.
They've realized this at my club (and many others no doubt) and are trying
to get two dance floors so that they can have one where you can dance and
one where you can hear good/new/different music.
Dag
Greylock Starkiller: Jedi Knight
the two-step and proclaim:
>The books, the films (it's scary to me that I know people just like the Craft
>girls), the music that's pushed by all those myriad compilations. It's only
>natural that goth would eventually be commodified, but I just wish there
>weren't so many people willing to just accept that and let Hot Topic and
>Cleopatra spoonfeed them their watered-down, cheapened version of 'goth'.
Cleopatra didn't initially, and I'm sad to say its been an entirely
money-driven revolution for Brian and the boys - but if you remember when
Cleopatra first came out they were doing some very good stuff, reissuing a lot
of old punk/goth discs and they played a significant part in the resurgence of
the most recent wave.
Modern Cleopatra is giving people a chance, for all their faults the discs do
include the hidden gems, the odd track which might open the listener's ears to
another world.
It *is* a pity Cleo can't use their not inconsiderable financial resources for
the forces of good more frequently - but the future, the one which you and I
will live in, will look back on the embarrassing Cleopatra releases with a
combination of fondness and dread. I call it the Duran Duran factor.
> How can *anyone* think that, for example, Nosferatu is any good at all? Seriously?
Nosferatu were quite good between the 'Legends/Rise' era if you can appreciate
the guitar rock aesthetic, which I know you're sick of. These days they appear
to be quite embarrassing, because they've become quite the cliche of
themselves, which is quite terrifying given that they started as an
unintentional pastiche band in the first place.
Sure there's come sterility to them, and they aren't the most musically
challenging band in the world, but not everyone can be Throbbing Gristle.
Then again my cheese appreciation factor is quite high - I like early 90s Two
Witches.
H*ydn: who, Yoda-like, is busy following his own tangled threads.
-----
H*ydn
breaking apart like I'm made of glass again
Greylock Starkiller: Jedi Knight
two-step and proclaim:
>
>Other
>I'm not a unicorn.
>You're not a dying sun, there is always a ray to your heart.
Benton?
Other
Starkiller: Jedi Knight) wrote:
~* snip *~
It is interesting. Few people reply to my posts when they don't know
who I am.
Was it the belly quote? ;)
Greylock Starkiller: Jedi Knight
two-step and proclaim:
>On Thu, 20 May 1999 10:01:35 GMT, Hyd...@hotmail.gov (Greylock
>Starkiller: Jedi Knight) wrote:
>It is interesting. Few people reply to my posts when they don't know
>who I am.
I think it's because in these days of Greycat Wars and the Convergence Scandle
or other such worthless threads, people surf by name more and more often.
If it helps, I've read almost all your posts, just didn't have anything to add
- but I think you're writing style shines through.
The mediaone address helped confirm my suspicions.
Loki feyD'kin
XloreleiX <xlor...@aol.combatrock> wrote in message
news:19990516060544...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
> It's dawned on me that most goths are no more interesting or intelligent
than
avoid
> using the word "goth" in my AOL profile because it attracts morons en
masse
Very interesting. I am backposting, after reading alot of the replies.
Anyhow... I skipped the actual introduction into Gothism while I was growing
up. Was busy doing a few other things. However, from what I have gleaned
from straining through a ton of internet information I do not think anyone
that is truely a Goth can up and quit. Sorry.
How does one go about not being Goth? Quit listening to the music that is
defined as such? I actually believe that the music has little to do with it,
though it has had an influence. Some people think that there would be no
Goth subculture today if it wasn't for Punk music... There may not be Goth
music today, but I think the subculture has always been there.
In order to stop being Goth you would have to redefine yourself on a very
basic level. You will have to stop dressing as an individual, and do you
want to do that? You would have to complain only about very basic normal
things. Never talk about taboo subjects, use only one-dimensional humor, be
politically correct all the time, do the expected thing when and where it's
expected....etc. (Sheesh, I may be ill...)
Now true, there are allot of transitional Goths with varying depth to them.
Why on earth are you comparing yourself or even care? They are bats in the
night, and will perish come dawn. (Couldn't help it.) Anyone that is a Goth
true to the heart will see the light, (from the moon of course), and remain.
The label means little, the music means little, (ducking), it's the
individual expressing individualism, that is the all. If the majority of
people who called themselves Goths decided tomorrow to put on coneheads,
would only accomplish one thing; show how very little they know about being
individuals, and being Goth.
Goth to me is being sad and depressed that you are so much an individual
that absolutely no one could ever possibly understand you completely. (Plus
we dress far better.)
Now, bottom line. Do you really want to be happy, and have people actually
understand you? Do you want to dress normally in that dull colourful manner?
Have you gone sane?
Loki
Other
<lord...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>XloreleiX <xlor...@aol.combatrock> wrote in message
>news:19990516060544...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
>> It's dawned on me that most goths are no more interesting or intelligent
>than
>> anyone else, and a whole lot of them are dumber than rocks. I consciously
>avoid
>> using the word "goth" in my AOL profile because it attracts morons en
>masse
><snip>
>Very interesting. I am backposting, after reading alot of the replies.
>Anyhow... I skipped the actual introduction into Gothism while I was growing
>up. Was busy doing a few other things. However, from what I have gleaned
>from straining through a ton of internet information I do not think anyone
>that is truely a Goth can up and quit. Sorry.
Certainly. If I find something that reflects my tastes more accurately
that goth then I shall move on to that. The chance of this happening
can be presumed to be small. If I grew up in the early eighties rather
than the early ninties, I would have probably be more interested in
New Romantic and "New Wave". More Devo than Bauhaus.
And what is this "truely a goth"? This creates the gother than thou
argument, as if third graders were entitled to look down on second
graders by mere longevity.
>How does one go about not being Goth? Quit listening to the music that is
>defined as such?
I know very few people that listen to naught but goth. Goth is not a
particularly vast or terribly interesting genere. I listen to many
types of music.
> I actually believe that the music has little to do with it,
>though it has had an influence. Some people think that there would be no
>Goth subculture today if it wasn't for Punk music... There may not be Goth
>music today, but I think the subculture has always been there.
Oi, now we have the "goth has always been here". It isn't a rose if
you can't call it such. You can see threads of things that resonate,
but no "goth".
>In order to stop being Goth you would have to redefine yourself on a very
>basic level.
What is wrong with that? I've redefined myself several times. This is
called growing up and moving out into the Real World. I'm not the
person that I was when I was sixteen, when I was eighteen, or when I
was ten. I imagine that when I'm twenty-five I'll be quite different
than I am now and look up the me that was twenty with askance.
Without growth there is death.
> You will have to stop dressing as an individual, and do you
>want to do that?
Talk about your leading questions!
How can you be an individual when you look like anyone else and can
not step out of the bounds of what is considered correct in your own
subculture? You've traded one set of limitations for another. Granted,
the limitations of goth are more in resonance with my own tastes, but
who are you to argue that one is superior to the other simply becuase
you like one more? They are all valid.
> You would have to complain only about very basic normal
>things.
~* snort *~
This is a foolish assumption.
> Never talk about taboo subjects, use only one-dimensional humor, be
>politically correct all the time, do the expected thing when and where it's
>expected....etc. (Sheesh, I may be ill...)
I'm amused in the extreme. Not goth does not mean mundane.
>Now true, there are allot of transitional Goths with varying depth to them.
And you suggest yardsticking them according to your definitions? To do
so is to invite well deserved indications to your absurdity.
>Why on earth are you comparing yourself or even care?
Becuase your statements suggest that you must in order to determine
one's own superiority of goth. We vilify the mansonites becuase it is
fashionable and the music is distasteful to our older sensibilities.
When I have the opportunity to speak to them, I try to expand and
educate rather than damning and dismissing.
"Have you ever heard... Have you ever read... Have you experienced..."
-rather than-
"What you like sucks, how dare you!"
Perhaps my suggestions fall upon the deaf, but I hope that something
takes root and germinates.
> They are bats in the
>night, and will perish come dawn. (Couldn't help it.)
Feh.
> Anyone that is a Goth
>true to the heart will see the light, (from the moon of course), and remain.
Feh. Goth is a social construct, not a outspringing of some mystical
desire. A subculture, not a religion.
>The label means little, the music means little, (ducking), it's the
>individual expressing individualism, that is the all.
Again, how much individuality is expressed in a place where the rules
are just as narrowly written as in other subcultures or the greater
world?
> If the majority of
>people who called themselves Goths decided tomorrow to put on coneheads,
>would only accomplish one thing; show how very little they know about being
>individuals, and being Goth.
And I suppose that you have the answers, hmmm?
>Goth to me is being sad and depressed that you are so much an individual
>that absolutely no one could ever possibly understand you completely. (Plus
>we dress far better.)
We just had an amusing thread on people putting their own
interpretations on what goth is. I take the fullest and longest view:
"Goth is what three goths can agree is."
The statement is recursive, of course. What you seem to want is to
chisel it down as far as you can so that you can feel as special and
as superior as possible. Elitism is death.
>Now, bottom line. Do you really want to be happy,
Yes.
> and have people actually
>understand you?
Yes.
> Do you want to dress normally in that dull colourful manner?
No, but this is not a reflection of what someone is.
>Have you gone sane?
Feh. This doesn't deserve a response of weight.
Loki feyD'kin
My original post was meant to be light hearted, humorous, and pretty much a
joke.
Other <ot...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:37471821...@enews.newsguy.com...
> Feh. This doesn't deserve a response of weight.
Ditto.
Loki
Panurge
> "Loki feyD'kin" <lord...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >How does one go about not being Goth? Quit listening to the music that is
> >defined as such?
>
> I know very few people that listen to naught but goth.
I think Loki's question is a way of pointing out that very same thing.
Turning your back on something that you feel has gone bad, even when it
still involves stuff you like, seems to me like a solution that hasn't had
much thought put into it. But then I don't really think XloreleiX means
to do that.
> > I actually believe that the music has little to do with it,
> >though it has had an influence. Some people think that there would be no
> >Goth subculture today if it wasn't for Punk music... There may not be Goth
> >music today, but I think the subculture has always been there.
>
> Oi, now we have the "goth has always been here". It isn't a rose if
> you can't call it such. You can see threads of things that resonate,
> but no "goth".
Well, "Goth" is an abstraction, and as such, the answer to the
what-is-Goth question must be somewhat fluid. You say about as much later
on in your post.
> Goth is a social construct, not a outspringing of some mystical
> desire. A subculture, not a religion.
OTOH, something _inspires_ that social construct that lies outside purely
social relations.
> Again, how much individuality is expressed in a place where the rules
> are just as narrowly written as in other subcultures or the greater
> world?
That depends on how well The Goth Idea jibes with what you would've wanted
to do anyway.
> > If the majority of
> >people who called themselves Goths decided tomorrow to put on coneheads,
> >would only accomplish one thing; show how very little they know about being
> >individuals, and being Goth.
Actually, it would show what kind of relationship they had to The Goth
Idea--one that makes room for a little levity.
> > Do you want to dress normally in that dull colourful manner?
> No, but this is not a reflection of what someone is.
Why wouldn't it be?? Why wouldn't one's tastes be a reflection of oneself?
--
"I didn't come here to learn from you;
I came here to show you what _I've_ learned." --Heitor Villa-Lobos
Other
wrote:
>ot...@mediaone.net (Other) wrote:
>
>> "Loki feyD'kin" <lord...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>> >How does one go about not being Goth? Quit listening to the music that is
>> >defined as such?
>>
>> I know very few people that listen to naught but goth.
>
>I think Loki's question is a way of pointing out that very same thing.
It came off as serious.
~* hits humor detector *~
Must get a replacement for this thing. Damn [nationality] parts.
>Turning your back on something that you feel has gone bad, even when it
>still involves stuff you like, seems to me like a solution that hasn't had
>much thought put into it. But then I don't really think XloreleiX means
>to do that.
I agree. Her statements connoted a certian frustration with something
that she enjoyed being perverted. It suggested irritation, not
revokation.
>> > I actually believe that the music has little to do with it,
>> >though it has had an influence. Some people think that there would be no
>> >Goth subculture today if it wasn't for Punk music... There may not be Goth
>> >music today, but I think the subculture has always been there.
>>
>> Oi, now we have the "goth has always been here". It isn't a rose if
>> you can't call it such. You can see threads of things that resonate,
>> but no "goth".
>
>Well, "Goth" is an abstraction, and as such, the answer to the
>what-is-Goth question must be somewhat fluid. You say about as much later
>on in your post.
Like nailing down mercury. This is very hard of the analytical portion
of my brain which wants to put everything into happy little boxes
where it can be understood and thus rendered safe. The fluid part of
my scoffs at such an idea and points and laughs at the idea of
encapsulating something so amorphous.
So I can utter things like:
"Goth is X, goth is not X"
and then turn around and say:
"The goth that is called goth is not the true goth."
And be perfectly comfortable with that. You don't want to look at my
chart. It is a horror of opposing aspects.
>> Goth is a social construct, not a outspringing of some mystical
>> desire. A subculture, not a religion.
>
>OTOH, something _inspires_ that social construct that lies outside purely
>social relations.
We emulate what we admire.
I admire intelligence, sensitivity, eloquence, and creativity.
I would hazard to say that goth has the highest concentration of
people with these traits of the major subcultures currently.
We also seek what is like us.
I would like to flatter myself and say that I have some of those
qualities in a degree which is significant. Your opinion of me my
vary. ~* grin *~
>> Again, how much individuality is expressed in a place where the rules
>> are just as narrowly written as in other subcultures or the greater
>> world?
>
>That depends on how well The Goth Idea jibes with what you would've wanted
>to do anyway.
I think goth is "individual enough". It is a construct that many
people find attractions to and is significantly enough outside what is
generally accepted that a sufficent degree of individuality can be
applied to it.
One goth's dress my have much in common with another's but within that
construct there is much variation. Perhaps, those within the
subculture are able to discern these variations and appriciate them
more than the outside culture.
Someone outside might not make as great distinction between a
mansonite, a victoriangoth, and a jeans and t-shirt goth as someone
from inside the subculture. Becuase the variances can be small, there
is a sense of greater attunation to them.
To the mundies we are all PIB. To us we are a glitter goth, an
antiquity goth, and a fetish goth.
>> > If the majority of
>> >people who called themselves Goths decided tomorrow to put on coneheads,
>> >would only accomplish one thing; show how very little they know about being
>> >individuals, and being Goth.
>
>Actually, it would show what kind of relationship they had to The Goth
>Idea--one that makes room for a little levity.
Goth is a joke.
Goth is deathly serious.
This is why people dancing in chicken suits at the club while wearing
an ankh are GAF. ;)
>> > Do you want to dress normally in that dull colourful manner?
>
>> No, but this is not a reflection of what someone is.
>
>Why wouldn't it be?? Why wouldn't one's tastes be a reflection of oneself?
A reflection, not a mirror image. Not all people in white baseball
caps fit nicely into the box that I've relegated them to. ;)
Panurge
> jbl...@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) writes:
> >(PERSONAL NOTE: My alienation kept me away from the scene for
> >_years_--ever since its inception, as a matter of fact. Eventually (like,
> >_last_year_), I just decided to put that alienation aside and not worry
> >about who might think I _ought_not_to_be_here_.
>
> Wow. Is this just a mass hallucination or are we all coming back to the
tribe?
It's not quite the same thing. I was never a member of "the tribe" in the
first place. But I eventually decided to see if I could make The Goth
Thing work for me. These "Things"--The Goth Thing, The Metal Thing, The
Punk Thing, The Rock Thing, The Prog Thing, The Jazz Thing, The Country
Thing--whatever--are there for our use, not vice versa.
Panurge
> An allegedly "alternative" club
> has started up in my town (i.e. cheezy metal, Run D.M.C. haven't died yet)
> and some of the punters have "potential". Bouncing around to Korn in lousy
> make-up may not be ideal, but it's a start.
What do you consider "cheesy metal" these days? The post-MM music made by
dudes who would've been listening to Motley Crue ten years ago?? Or bands
like Korn themselves (whose listeners compare them favorably to yon same
Crue)??
> The soul of punk comes from it's D.I.Y. spirit...
> Since goth bands don't stand a snowflake in hell's chance
> commercially, goth is managing to keep to the old punk ethic rather well.
But this outlook tends to make the music a mere _container_ for an outlook
and a subculture rather than the center of attention.
Tell you what--as most people know here, I'm a '70s prog fan
PUT DOWN THAT MACHETE! ...Thank you.
Anyway... Over the past six or seven years, hundreds of acts in the
Americas, Europe, and Japan have started putting out prog albums, either
on their own or on microscopically small labels that can't get the time of
day even from the institutions (and they are institutions) of the
self-styled "indie" scene--labels and promoters that lose money hand over
fist and are happy to pay for the privilege. (One band did get a chance
to make a major-label record--and _they_ took that opportunity to make
much of their _least_ commercial music.) Now tell me--just _who_ here is
better exemplifying The Spirit Of Punk??
And does it matter if some of those self-produced albums _sound_ like
major-label releases??
> The only culture that is trully goth (except when it gets used as a literary
> genre[1]) somes from within the scene.
So if I Make The Scene <tm>, can I do what I would've done anyway and get
it accepted as Truly Goff??
> Disliking half the content within the scene is another matter.
Remember Sturgeon's Law!
BTW, thanks for the recommendations.
> While punk 'zines like MRR feature the writing of Noam Chomsky,
> Carpe-bloody-Noctem is still full of make-up tips.
"When they serve you coffee, don't go looking for beer." --Anton Chekhov
wally
join a mostly "groupless" group of individuals? Nah, ain't happening. If you are
making yourself goth, you could just as easily make yourself preppy, and it would
have the same amount of meaning, except for the fact that your parents wouldn't
be quite as angry.
And, being goth doesn't mean being sad....
http://www.angelfire.com/mn/psychophreak/
Loki feyD'kin
A.K. <ak...@is7.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.95.99052...@is7.nyu.edu...
> Buy A Clue. Please read the FAQs. PLEASE.
I read the FAQ. Clues cost way too much. Post was meant to be humorous,
instead it was replied to by the humorless, go figure. :P
Loki
----
Sure we can make you Goth. First we have to remove your sense of humor.
Then...
FatherHoly
jbl...@mindspring.com (Panurge) writes:
>It's not quite the same thing. I was never a member of "the tribe" in the
>first place. But I eventually decided to see if I could make The Goth
>Thing work for me. These "Things"--The Goth Thing, The Metal Thing, The
>Punk Thing, The Rock Thing, The Prog Thing, The Jazz Thing, The Country
>Thing--whatever--are there for our use, not vice versa.
I don't think anyone is *really* a member. We all just kinda ended up
together. I see your point on "Things." It's always been a Me Thing. I've
stopped trying to make anything work (except this damn computer and my camera)
and have been learning how to go with the flows. Just seems that I'm a bit
more comfortable with these folks.
Catty as they are.
ro...@elis.demon.co.uk
>aug...@elis.demon.co.uk wrote:
>What do you consider "cheesy metal" these days? The post-MM music made by
>dudes who would've been listening to Motley Crue ten years ago?? Or bands
>like Korn themselves (whose listeners compare them favorably to yon same
>Crue)??
I wouldn't call the likes of Korn cheesy metal, that would imply that
they were vaugely fun to listen to ! It just beggars belief what's survived
from the 80's. Early Alice Cooper was rather influential, so why these kids
were bouncing around to "Poison" (his worst song ever ?) I shall never know.
Get a bunch of pissed net.goths to Laughton's next Whitby, then watch them,
air_tennis_rackets in hand, grunt and grimace their way through "Walk This
Way". As far as these kids were concerned, though, it was deadly serious. ;)
It's still better than being a crop-headed nedlette....
>
>> The soul of punk comes from it's D.I.Y. spirit...
>> Since goth bands don't stand a snowflake in hell's chance
>> commercially, goth is managing to keep to the old punk ethic rather well.
>
>But this outlook tends to make the music a mere _container_ for an outlook
>and a subculture rather than the center of attention.
Oh absolutely, I just like approaching black pirate-shirted mopelings
and saying "Guess what !? You're a *punk* rocker !"
>
>Tell you what--as most people know here, I'm a '70s prog fan
>
>PUT DOWN THAT MACHETE! ...Thank you.
Well, just this once... <Whistles tunelessly as elbow slides over
acid-jazz CD....> You wouldn't believe the number of Blue Oyster Cult threads
that get started on UPG...
>Anyway... Over the past six or seven years, hundreds of acts in the
>Americas, Europe, and Japan have started putting out prog albums, either
^^^^
Erm, does this have anything to do with Visual Rock, the nearest
Japan got to having a goth scene ? Can you recommend any ?
>on their own or on microscopically small labels that can't get the time of
>day even from the institutions (and they are institutions) of the
>self-styled "indie" scene--labels and promoters that lose money hand over
Yep, Epitaph who sign the likes of Rancid, behave just like majors
and can treat other bands like dirt. (One could dredge up the Furious George
debacle...) I was talking about labels way smaller than that... The words
alternative indie as used by the music press mean absolutely bog all.
"If the Doors or John Lennon were getting started now, the industry
wouldn't sign them in a million years." -Jello Biafra
>And does it matter if some of those self-produced albums _sound_ like
>major-label releases??
No. I think that majors have become a lot nastier since punk arrived
in the U.K. Faithfull Dawn could be described as "Republica, only almost
good...", it's just that I can pay less to see them in an intimate venue
amongst friends rather than dodge flying cups of flat lager in a dodgy
leisure centre.
>> The only culture that is trully goth (except when it gets used as a literary
>> genre[1]) somes from within the scene.
>
>So if I Make The Scene <tm>, can I do what I would've done anyway and get
>it accepted as Truly Goff??
You might do. It just shows how pointless defining goth or asking
if something is gothic really is. The only definition of goth that even
begins to be consistent is music descended from the post-punk of the likes
of UK Decay and Joy Division. (Take a look at Pete's pages,
www.scathe.demon.co.uk) No matter how much people would like to believe
that there was always a thread of gothic-inspired culture before that, I
don't think it holds water. The influences of goth culture are so widely
spread that their only common denominator is that we have chosen them.
I'm sure most would agree that the second part of Goethe's Faust
belongs on the gothic book list, but: "The Night and Graveyard poets send
their apologies, explaining that they are in the middle of a highly
interesting discussion with a freshly resurrected vampire, from which a new
poetic genre may perhaps be developed." -He hated the fad of the gothic
novel. Celtic knot-work, german expressionism, flying goggles and four feet
of pink wool in your hair: -if they stick, then you have to call them part
of the culture. Hopefully, Magic The Snoring and bad vampire novels won't.
One can afford to be optimistic, goth's quite good at sorting the wheat from
the chaff really. Ten years ago the likes of the Shamen, Pop Will Shit
Itself, The Levellers and New Model Army all co-existed in the clubs. We
held onto the Army and the Poppies and dumped the rest, it just takes time.
Perhaps we'll hold onto Curve and Purescence and ditch Garbage ?
This also means that that the "No-Wave" movement with the likes of
Lydia Lunch, Nick Cave, 'Neubauten and Diamanda Gallas, who split off from
punk before goth really emerged as a culture can't be called part of the
scene either. Fair enough. Most of them have quite a touching fondness for
goths. Gallas, who's seen enough death of her own, tends to think that goths
should be more pre-occupied with life, but said in her own scarey fashion:
"...But they're verrrrry sweeeeet, open to good influences."
If they don't consider themselves part of the movement, so be it.
It's a damn sight better than watching the Mission or All About Eve try and
wriggle out of the goth tag, they're almost as bad as the Aviatored king Twat
himself.
>BTW, thanks for the recommendations.
All that was on the right side of pop. I really think that Mansonitis
will be much easier to shift and less destructive than the pseudo-indie
Sisters era. Even Chaos Engine at their noisiest are rather cheerfull. I
tend to pick up on goth bands by seeing them at gigs, (it was years until
I started enjoying goth bands live again) so I've yet to get into the
Projekt / Cold Meat Industry side of things. -They tend not to come here.
Well, I once saw Attrition. Perhaps I'll just kick the counter at
Resurrection and take what falls off.
Have Fun,
"Augeas"
Panurge
> on Sun 23-05-99 20:08 Panurge wrote:
>
> >Over the past six or seven years, hundreds of acts in the
> >Americas, Europe, and Japan have started putting out prog albums,...
> ^^^^
> Erm, does this have anything to do with Visual Rock, the nearest
> Japan got to having a goth scene ?
Not at all. Think "Genesis with Peter Gabriel" or "Yes with Rick Wakeman
before Rick came down with the Cheez Dizeez"--IOW, the music that punk
purists consider the very antithesis of punk musically. Now, if _they_
catch the DIY bug, are they still somehow anathema just because of the
nature of the music they make, whatever their social or political stands
might be?
Is a DIY prog band more or less punk than Green Day??
> >...either on their own or on microscopically small labels that can't get the
> >time of day even from the institutions (and they are institutions) of the
> >self-styled "indie" scene--labels and promoters that lose money hand over
>
> Yep, Epitaph who sign the likes of Rancid, behave just like majors
> and can treat other bands like dirt. (One could dredge up the Furious George
> debacle...) I was talking about labels way smaller than that...
So am I, actually.
SIDE STORY: I sent a tape of mine to the head of a tiny prog-rock label a
couple of years ago. He was interested, but he asked me to send him
enough music for a full album, get a "real" singer, and record with...
a Mellotron.
> "If the Doors or John Lennon were getting started now, the industry
> wouldn't sign them in a million years." -Jello Biafra
Well, that works both ways. No one would've signed Neubaten in '65, most
likely, either.
> >And does it matter if some of those self-produced albums _sound_ like
> >major-label releases??
I want to point out that I was addressing the "lo-fi" ethic here.
> No matter how much people would like to believe
> that there was always a thread of gothic-inspired culture before that, I
> don't think it holds water.
Culture?? Maybe not. But there's a _reason_ the word "Goth" was
chosen--because it communicated something people already knew about
without there being a subculture specifically dedicated to it.
> The influences of goth culture are so widely
> spread that their only common denominator is that we have chosen them.
True.
> Diamanda Galas, who's seen enough death of her own, tends to think that goths
> should be more pre-occupied with life,...
Jon Swinghammer
>> ^^^^
>> Erm, does this have anything to do with Visual Rock, the nearest
>> Japan got to having a goth scene ?
>Not at all. Think "Genesis with Peter Gabriel" or "Yes with Rick Wakeman
>before Rick came down with the Cheez Dizeez"--IOW, the music that punk
>purists consider the very antithesis of punk musically. Now, if _they_
>catch the DIY bug, are they still somehow anathema just because of the
>nature of the music they make, whatever their social or political stands
>might be?
Hm I don't follow but Genesis with Gabriel is very punk just listen to the
Lamb.
>Is a DIY prog band more or less punk than Green Day??
>
>> >...either on their own or on microscopically small labels that can't get
the
>> >time of day even from the institutions (and they are institutions) of
the
>> >self-styled "indie" scene--labels and promoters that lose money hand
over
>>
>> Yep, Epitaph who sign the likes of Rancid, behave just like
majors
>> and can treat other bands like dirt. (One could dredge up the Furious
George
>> debacle...) I was talking about labels way smaller than that...
>So am I, actually.
Epitaph, signs some good bands like Wayne Kramer and RL Burnside.
>SIDE STORY: I sent a tape of mine to the head of a tiny prog-rock label a
>couple of years ago. He was interested, but he asked me to send him
>enough music for a full album, get a "real" singer, and record with...
>
>a Mellotron.
>
>> "If the Doors or John Lennon were getting started now, the
industry
>> wouldn't sign them in a million years." -Jello Biafra
>
>Well, that works both ways. No one would've signed Neubaten in '65, most
>likely, either.
Yeah I guess, you can get just about any music published if you're good and
there is an excellent label called Discipline Global Mobile run by Mr.
Robert Fripp of King Crimson who sings the best acts in circulation today I
believe.
>> >And does it matter if some of those self-produced albums _sound_ like
>> >major-label releases??
Not really so long as its good music who cares?
>I want to point out that I was addressing the "lo-fi" ethic here.
>
>> No matter how much people would like to believe
>> that there was always a thread of gothic-inspired culture before that, I
>> don't think it holds water.
>
>Culture?? Maybe not. But there's a _reason_ the word "Goth" was
>chosen--because it communicated something people already knew about
>without there being a subculture specifically dedicated to it.
The sounds and the ideas that are in goth are very strong within progressive
rock of the 70s just listen to King Crimson's first album or some of the
Genesis stuff on the Lamb. That's very very dark to me much darker than
anything goth I've ever heard.
>> The influences of goth culture are so widely
>> spread that their only common denominator is that we have chosen them.
>
>True.
I'd agree with that.
>> Diamanda Galas, who's seen enough death of her own, tends to think that
goths
>> should be more pre-occupied with life,...
Hm who says that they're not? I mean death isn't the subject of Goth just
listen to Joy Division, there is an artistic reason as to why they are
exploring the "dark" side of their souls. Ian Curtis was a genius because
he found beauty of life in a place where no one thought to really look
before...well not really but for all intensive purposes. Goth isn't about
death if it were there would be more suicides :-)
Jon