Goth Gaydar
E.S.
on the radio, and some brilliant passerby made a trenchant
observation:
"OHMYGOD. She must be a total lesbo if she likes Melissa Etheridge."
Responds the companion, "Yeah, she totally set off my gaydar the
minute I walked in here."
Now, I am neither particularly butch nor particularly lesbian (not
that I have any reservations about pursuing attractive ladies, but I
am committed to my boyfriend, so it wasn't like I was leering at
anybody). I do not, however, feel particularly feminine outside of my
lacey dresses, which are not work attire. This got me to thinking
about if they would have said the same thing had they seen me in my
nonwork apparel, which brings me to my point:
Does the concept of "Gaydar" apply to goths in the same way it does to
the average person walking down the street? I mean, sometimes you have
a hard enough time pinning a gender on somebody, if that's something
important to you. If you think gaydar even exists, do you think the
fact that goth culture sometimes deliberately skews gender lines,
regardless of sexuality, throws the whole thing off? Do you think that
at a Convergence or in the average goth club, you can usually tell
within a few minutes whether ot not somebody is straight?
Of course, there are people who don't believe gaydar is real, and who
think it's just stereotype. The people who attribute it to pheremones,
too, will still say that looks mean nothing. I am very curious to know
different opinions on this, as mine are mixed. Please feel free to
tell me off if this is off topic or overly inflammatory; I do not
intend it to be either.
--ES
maestro
>yes. gothdar is real. *g*
well, though not perfectly on topic this is what i was thinking about
for a long time too...i mean besides of the typical characterisitics
that make a goth probably stand out from the rest of the crowd it's
amazing that if you go through a shopping mall or anything else you
will _always_ recognize the goths there, no matter how "downstyled"
they are, how subliminal their "gothness" is. it's almost as if you
can smell it
the only question is if nature equipped you with that so you can find
likeminded people...or to be able to flree from them :p
M
---
http://www.vampyres.tk
vampyres, sex and industrial music
Alain Cislaghi
I'm not a goth and I frequent goths (some of'em even ignoring they're
fuckin'goths, so genuine and country side isolated they are) since I'm
fifteen. I'd say that with the fashion, attitude and frequency of
particular types of personalities found in this sub culture, it's
often easy to take an essentially straight thing for a homo and vice
versa, so my best guess is that a so called "gaydar"'s gotta be very
sensitive to work in such a setting. But, then, it's not such an
important tool in a group of people supposed to deal allright with
mistakes over such matters.
(Not that it should still be a matter in any strate or section of our
modern, boring society where everything's been banalised and accepted,
where you gotta be conservative or frankly retrograde to cause any
shock. heh. I think.)
Tiny Human Ferret
> E.S. wrote:
>
>
>>At work the other day, I was tapping my foot to the Melissa Etheridge
>>on the radio, and some brilliant passerby made a trenchant
>>observation:
>
>
>>"OHMYGOD. She must be a total lesbo if she likes Melissa Etheridge."
>>Responds the companion, "Yeah, she totally set off my gaydar the
>>minute I walked in here."
>
>
> the music they listen to. i mean, i really like melissa etheridge, and
> the indigo girls. but as i glance at my music collection, i also so goth,
> 70's & 80's metal, jazz, acid rock, classic rock, wierd ambient shit, and
> whatever else catches my fancy.
Heh, one of the local newsgroup participants (Aristeia) and I hung out one
day, and her observation was that according to my taste in tapes, I was
clearly hardcore lesbian with severe butch leanings. My only possible
rejoinder was that "okay you've heard this before, but I _really am_ a
lesbian trapped in a man's body". Hell, Indigo Girls on one side of the tape
and Tori Amos on the other side of the tape? Heh. But I think it was the
"Til Tuesday" tape ("voices carry") that convinced her that I might not be a
lesbian, but a really romantic if slightly bi grrl, trapped in a man's body.
*snicker*
Supposedly I set off gaydar from miles away, unfortunately historically it's
mostly been the gaydar of chickenhawks possessed of the belief that it is
their mission in life to wake me from my boring heteroness into the glory of
getting buggered. Delusion or something.
Tetsab
> it's amazing that if you go through a shopping mall or anything else you
> you will _always_ recognize the goths there, no matter how "downstyled"
> they are, how subliminal their "gothness" is.
Once Upon a Time I was in a mall for Christmas shopping and I picked up
a shadow in a PJ Pets uniform. He tracked me from seeing me from that
store all the way down the far corner of the bottom floor in another
store And Then ... He Pounced.
Hi, I saw you from the store and I just had to talk to you. You see it's
not so often that I see a Real Victorian Goth around these parts -- not
one of those Alien Sex Fiend Goths.
Cough. Splutter. Cough. Er...
So ya'll better watch out on the whole gothdar thing. Maybe it's better
to be subtle-goth for those things, or you may misread the scale by
going right over the top [or the top hat, as the case was here ;) ].
Tetsab.
>^..^<
IHCOYC XPICTOC
> Supposedly I set off gaydar from miles away, unfortunately historically
it's
> mostly been the gaydar of chickenhawks possessed of the belief that it is
> their mission in life to wake me from my boring heteroness into the glory
of
> getting buggered. Delusion or something.
I have a malfunctioning set or something. Create a group of women, some of
whom are gay and others not, and I will inevitably be attracted to the
lesbians.
Maybe it's sensible shoes or something.
--
At the age of five years to enter a spinning-cotton or other factory, and
from that time forth to sit there daily, first ten, then twelve, and
ultimately fourteen hours, performing the same mechanical labour, is to
purchase dearly the satisfaction of drawing breath. But this is the fate of
millions, and that of millions more is analogous to it.
--- Arthur Schopenhauer
Tiny Human Ferret
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>
>>Supposedly I set off gaydar from miles away,
>>unfortunately historically it's
>>mostly been the gaydar of chickenhawks possessed of the
>>belief that it is their mission in life to wake me from my
>>boring heteroness into the glory of
>>getting buggered. Delusion or something.
>
>
> I have a malfunctioning set or something. Create a group of women, some of
> whom are gay and others not, and I will inevitably be attracted to the
> lesbians.
>
> Maybe it's sensible shoes or something.
Maybe I wear goofy shoes that are um sending the wrong message?
However, I seem to have a problem similar to yours, though a bit worse.
Create a group of women, all of whom are actively hetero but half of whom
have the general concept that the proper place of a man is nicely chipped
and shredded into the compost pile once you're done with them. Guess which
ones hit on me at parties[1]. Hint, it's not the ones that don't own a lot
of high-horsepower gardening equipment[2].
Ref:
1. This would be why I don't go to parties.
2. This might be a DC thing but maybe it's not.
Trizia
>At work the other day, I was tapping my foot to the Melissa Etheridge
>on the radio, and some brilliant passerby made a trenchant
>observation:
>
>"OHMYGOD. She must be a total lesbo if she likes Melissa Etheridge."
>Responds the companion, "Yeah, she totally set off my gaydar the
>minute I walked in here."
>
I go all stompy and fierce when I listen to Melissa :-) But the main
problem is remembering not to sing along when listening to the
walkman.
-----
Trizia
Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there with open arms
http:www.livejournal.com/users/trizia
http:www.livejournal.com/users/thepoetryhaven
Trizia
<ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> scribbled:
>IHCOYC XPICTOC wrote:
>> I have a malfunctioning set or something. Create a group of women, some of
>> whom are gay and others not, and I will inevitably be attracted to the
>> lesbians.
>>
>> Maybe it's sensible shoes or something.
>
>Maybe I wear goofy shoes that are um sending the wrong message?
>
I nearly always seem to get hit on by the scary tracksuit wearing
lesbians :-(
Tiny Human Ferret
> On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 08:39:28 -0400, Tiny Human Ferret
> <ixnayamsp...@earthops.net> scribbled:
>
>
>>IHCOYC XPICTOC wrote:
>
>
>>>I have a malfunctioning set or something. Create a group of women, some of
>>>whom are gay and others not, and I will inevitably be attracted to the
>>>lesbians.
>>>
>>>Maybe it's sensible shoes or something.
>>
>>Maybe I wear goofy shoes that are um sending the wrong message?
>>
>
> I nearly always seem to get hit on by the scary tracksuit wearing
> lesbians :-(
Obviously we all have fashion-message problems.
Is there some bestseller pop-culture book that we forgot to buy?
Oddly enough, Ellen DeGeneris is on my TV even as I type, and I find myself
inexplicably attracted. Nice hug she's giving Jennifer Aniston, too. I think
my brain just turned to mush.
I think I know what Ihcoyc and I are having happen, it's our
Attracted-to-Tomboys proclivity manifesting even as the gaydar malfunctions.
Nyx
wrote in
news:ns_de_cybax__yahoo.com_not.re...@news.news
guy.com:
> 70's & 80's metal, jazz, acid rock, classic rock, wierd ambient shit,
> and whatever else catches my fancy.
You're gay if you don't listen to Skynyrd.
Plus, you used the word "fancy" so that's gay.
Nyx
--
Fair and Balanced
www.sxxxy.org
Jennie
> "OHMYGOD. She must be a total lesbo if she likes Melissa Etheridge."
> Responds the companion, "Yeah, she totally set off my gaydar the
> minute I walked in here."
I don't know who Melissa Etheridge is, but I suspect that basing
assumptions about sexuality on music alone is not terribly reliable - you
might just as easily have been Klaatu.
Otoh, when I first met Donald, he listened to Andrew Eldritch
and Dolly Parton and he liked the young Elizabeth Taylor, and I was amazed
that his otherwise well educated mother hadn't realised. :\
> I do not, however, feel particularly feminine outside of my
> lacey dresses, which are not work attire.
A lot of people do still confuse other aspects of sexual
identity and comfort (or otherwise) with traditional sex roles with
gayness. It's one of the things that pushes naive young queer people into
stereotypes which might make them as unhappy as trying to be straight.
> Does the concept of "Gaydar" apply to goths in the same way it does to
> the average person walking down the street? I mean, sometimes you have
> a hard enough time pinning a gender on somebody, if that's something
> important to you. If you think gaydar even exists, do you think the
> fact that goth culture sometimes deliberately skews gender lines,
> regardless of sexuality, throws the whole thing off?
I don't tend to try particularly to figure out strange goths'
sexuality because there's less at stake. That is, a straight goth is still
extremely unlikely to be a homophobic goth, and even more unlikely to be
an aggressively homophobic goth. This means that hir sexuality isn't a big
deal to me unless I actually want to sleep with hir, in which case there
are more specific issues, ie: does sie fancy _me_. So my experience of
consciously using gaydar on goths is somewhat limited. Sometimes, however,
I have used it on behalf of other people, and it tends to be reasonably
accurate. I think it does take a little longer than usual, particularly
with men, because camp oo girly behaviour is quite common among the
straight ones too.
> Of course, there are people who don't believe gaydar is real, and who
> think it's just stereotype.
Stereotypes are still relevant, because a lot of people play up
to them in order to send particular signals.
> The people who attribute it to pheremones, too, will still say that
> looks mean nothing.
Pheromones only work close up, and their messages are more
subtle. They can often tell me if someone's interested in me personally;
other times, they can make it clear that said person is interested in
somebody immediately relevant (ie: physically proximate or prominent in
the imagination); they can't tell me who else that person might fancy in
other circumstances. So they're of limited usefulness.
I don't do the gaydar thing entirely by looks. Body language is
more of it, and patterns of speech, and particular behaviours.
Now gothdar, as is already being discussed elsewhere in this
thread, is another interesting phenomenon - for one reason or another,
many of us seem able to identify (oo be identified by) others of our kind
in all sorts of unhelpful circumstances. Me, I tend to be obvious, so I
can determine this stuff partly on the basis of how people react to me,
but I'm always interested in the experiences of those who recognise and
are recognised despite dressing down.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
IHCOYC XPICTOC
> I think I know what Ihcoyc and I are having happen, it's our
> Attracted-to-Tomboys proclivity manifesting even as the gaydar
malfunctions.
Any number of people remember me mostly for the line:
"That's OK, I like to watch, too. . . ."
erithromycin
>Does the concept of "Gaydar" apply to goths in the same way it does to
>the average person walking down the street?
Oh, I mean, dude, yeah. Though often wrong. It's the black see? Gaydar
absorbent. I bet you didn't know it, but goth was invented by the Ministry
of Defence during the early 1980s, but it didn't have any real military
applications [outwith, you know, not setting off gaydar and therefore
avoiding a whole heap of lawsuits and stuff, but that tends to get hushed
up - it's one of the main reasons why the armed forces are so big on
polished leather though] so it was released to the public, but some
Mancunian chancers bought the rights and started distributing it.
>I mean, sometimes you have a hard enough time pinning a gender on
>somebody,
That's easy to fix - just carry a large pin with a card that says 'girl' on
it, and it's as easy as mounting butterflies.
>if that's something important to you. If you think gaydar even exists, do
>you think the fact that goth culture sometimes deliberately skews gender
>lines, regardless of sexuality, throws the whole thing off?
I'm not convinced. It depends how the gaydar in question is tuned - if it's
"what genitals are they after in (ahem) a partner" then you might get one
set of response, but usually you'll get better results with an IFF* ping.
>Do you think that at a Convergence or in the average goth club, you can
>usually tell within a few minutes whether ot not somebody is straight?
If I know them, yes. Hmm. I don't think it's an either or, but a continuum,
much like gender and sex, so you just try to place them on the track. It
gets straightforward after a while, especially when you can compare notes.
>Of course, there are people who don't believe gaydar is real, and who
>think it's just stereotype. The people who attribute it to pheremones,
>too, will still say that looks mean nothing.
Body language and shape can have something to do with it. Certainly the way
someone carries themselves can tell you almost as much as what they had for
breakfast, and it's easier to tell how someone walks, and less icky than
them showing you their breakfast in a club. Unless they've actually brought
their breakfast into a club, or their dinner, both of which I've done.
>I am very curious to know different opinions on this, as mine are mixed.
Well, surely you know different opinions then, don't you? What you mean is
other people's, but I understand your confusion.
>Please feel free to tell me off if this is off topic or overly
>inflammatory; I do not intend it to be either.
For fuck's sake, less of this worry about off topicality or inflammation. I
mean, look at those other threads on going at the moment. We talk about a
bunch of stuff here. Fuck, I mean this thread even has 'goth' in the title.
*That's "Identification: Friend or Fuck. Some folk carry transponders, but
on covert missions it's often wise to go stealth until within range of your
target. Though now I'm having complicated thoughts about broadcast and
receiving, and encryption too, and now I'm trying to figure out how to avoid
using the words keys or "look down shoot down". Bugger.
--
erith - .sig
E.S.
<snip>
>
> > Of course, there are people who don't believe gaydar is real, and who
> > think it's just stereotype.
>
> Stereotypes are still relevant, because a lot of people play up
> to them in order to send particular signals.
>
> > The people who attribute it to pheremones, too, will still say that
> > looks mean nothing.
>
> Pheromones only work close up, and their messages are more
> subtle. They can often tell me if someone's interested in me personally;
> other times, they can make it clear that said person is interested in
> somebody immediately relevant (ie: physically proximate or prominent in
> the imagination); they can't tell me who else that person might fancy in
> other circumstances. So they're of limited usefulness.
> I don't do the gaydar thing entirely by looks. Body language is
> more of it, and patterns of speech, and particular behaviours.
> Now gothdar, as is already being discussed elsewhere in this
> thread, is another interesting phenomenon - for one reason or another,
> many of us seem able to identify (oo be identified by) others of our kind
> in all sorts of unhelpful circumstances. Me, I tend to be obvious, so I
> can determine this stuff partly on the basis of how people react to me,
> but I'm always interested in the experiences of those who recognise and
> are recognised despite dressing down.
>
> Jennie
Interesting point there, about stereotypes. I wonder how many gay men
lisped before they wanted to attract other gay men. It seems that many
of the ones I know actually developed one when they came out. Very few
people actually lisp as adults, so it is very odd that a lisp would
signal cultural desirability. Now that I think about it, I wonder how
many that traits subcultures pick up as signals were from "the
outside." I mean, certainly gay men didn't come up with the idea,
rather, straight society tended to portray them that way, and now many
of them play it up and wear it like a badge.
Similarly, the smell of clove usually sets off my gothdar. I hate
smoke and don't smoke myself, but when I smell clove cigarettes, I
suddenly feel more...at home, I suppose. I wonder how many people in
the goth subculture picked up the habit as a signal and use it like a
robin's chest. (I myself use a dab of clove and cinammon aromatherapy
oil on the pulse points as a relaxer, but now I wonder if
subconsciously I want the scent to get picked up when I am dressed
down, sort of a less short-distance gothdar pheromone.)
--E.S.
E.S.
> E.S.:
>
> >Does the concept of "Gaydar" apply to goths in the same way it does to
> >the average person walking down the street?
>
> Oh, I mean, dude, yeah. Though often wrong. It's the black see? Gaydar
> absorbent. I bet you didn't know it, but goth was invented by the Ministry
> of Defence during the early 1980s
That explains the occasional urge to shoot my boyfriend.
>I am very curious to know different opinions on this, as mine are mixed.
>
> Well, surely you know different opinions then, don't you? What you mean is
> other people's, but I understand your confusion.
::sticks out tongue::
>
> >Please feel free to tell me off if this is off topic or overly
> >inflammatory; I do not intend it to be either.
>
> For fuck's sake, less of this worry about off topicality or inflammation. I
> mean, look at those other threads on going at the moment. We talk about a
> bunch of stuff here. Fuck, I mean this thread even has 'goth' in the title.
>
I was just trying to be nice....
::sticks out tongue again::
Are you always such a smartass?
--E.S.
Jennie
news.newsguy.com>, --nightshade-- wrote:
> i suppose everyone is entitled to their own bizarre yoonique definitions
> of their own gender, but if someone told me they didn't particularly have
> any heterosexual leanings, though they had no qualms with pursuing the odd
> MOTOS, but since they weren't doing so _right_ _now_...
My flatmate ran into trouble with a girl like that last year.
This chick had no concept of bisexuality, but was "being straight at the
moment" when she had a boyfriend, and "back to being gay now" when she
started chasing women again. She was trying to make some kind of cultural
change each time she changed her sexual preferences, and making a much
bigger deal of cultural differences than anybody else did.
Peter H. Coffin
> Similarly, the smell of clove usually sets off my gothdar. I hate
> smoke and don't smoke myself, but when I smell clove cigarettes, I
> suddenly feel more...at home, I suppose. I wonder how many people in
> the goth subculture picked up the habit as a signal and use it like a
> robin's chest. (I myself use a dab of clove and cinammon aromatherapy
> oil on the pulse points as a relaxer, but now I wonder if
> subconsciously I want the scent to get picked up when I am dressed
> down, sort of a less short-distance gothdar pheromone.)
There's nothing that will turn my head faster than a whiff of clove
smoke from across a street or crowded room...
--
_ o
|/)
Vojerleda
<Sniap>
> Similarly, the smell of clove usually sets off my gothdar. I hate
> smoke and don't smoke myself, but when I smell clove cigarettes, I
> suddenly feel more...at home, I suppose. I wonder how many people in
> the goth subculture picked up the habit as a signal and use it like a
> robin's chest. (I myself use a dab of clove and cinammon aromatherapy
> oil on the pulse points as a relaxer, but now I wonder if
> subconsciously I want the scent to get picked up when I am dressed
> down, sort of a less short-distance gothdar pheromone.)
>
> --E.S.
I spotted one at our local WalMart. and that's pretty fucking rare in the
town that I live in. Our University's school of Education has the highest
amount of goth-looking folks in it- Kind of makes me wonder what the draw
is. Perhaps it is an abberant hate of ignorance that forces us to teach, and
teach "the right way" whatever way that may be.
I know that reason is part of my decision to teach- another factor is that I
want to foster appreciation for the dying art of public music performance
and listening. Also, I can't stand to see people mess up a good thing. When
I DO see someone messing something up, that can't be fixed, I want to smak
them.
Vojerleda....
go to the goddamn symphony!!! get some fucking culture!!!
or just have a biscuit...
Whisky-Dave
"Vojerleda" <oj...@magnolia-net.com> wrote in message
news:bjomcc$llv7i$1...@ID-203364.news.uni-berlin.de...
> and listening. Also, I can't stand to see people mess up a good thing.
When
> I DO see someone messing something up, that can't be fixed, I want to smak
> them.
I know the feeling :-)
Whisky-Dave
"erithromycin" <erithr...@ananzi.co.za> wrote in message
news:3f5def74$0$12652$afc3...@news.ukonline.co.uk...
> E.S.:
> That's easy to fix - just carry a large pin with a card that says 'girl'
on
> it, and it's as easy as mounting butterflies.
Never tried that, how do you managed it, they're so small and delicate
how do you balance I bet the wings stick together too.
> set of response, but usually you'll get better results with an IFF* ping.
Is that the 'finger' command ?
> gets straightforward after a while, especially when you can compare notes.
Like trainspotting ;-)
> For fuck's sake, less of this worry about off topicality or inflammation.
If it gets inflammed I'd go see a doctor, or a sex clinic.
> mean, look at those other threads on going at the moment. We talk about a
> bunch of stuff here. Fuck, I mean this thread even has 'goth' in the
title.
I believe the word Gaydar was also added to the Oxford dictionary a couple
years ago too, so it must exist. :)
Mech
villag...@hotmail.com (E.S.) wrote:
> Does the concept of "Gaydar" apply to goths in the same way it does
> to the average person walking down the street? I mean, sometimes
> you have a hard enough time pinning a gender on somebody, if that's
> something important to you.
Actually my 'genderdar' is pretty good. Even when viewing from a
distance it's hardly ever been fooled.
> If you think gaydar even exists, do you think the fact that goth
> culture sometimes deliberately skews gender lines, regardless of
> sexuality, throws the whole thing off?
Not really, as I'd never assume a guy who was feminine was
necessarily gay. It might make 'genderdar' more difficult, but
mine's fairly well tuned - I'm used to being around lots of thin,
long-haired guys, so I habitually resort to more reliable indicators.
My 'gaydar' isn't as good. Things that it's been fooled by include
assuming feminine guys with short hair are gay (except I've learnt
that lesson now) and bisexual girls are difficult to guess too.
Apart from that it's pretty reliable.
Can't say the same for the typical Mancunian... all I need to do
is put on PVC pants and apparently that makes me gay. How many gays
have long hair? I can't think of one!
> Do you think that at a Convergence or in the average goth club, you
> can usually tell within a few minutes whether ot not somebody is
> straight?
A few minutes of what? Talking to them, viewing them up close,
or from a distance? If they were a guy I can usually tell. If they
were a bi girl, I probably couldn't decide without getting to know
them first.
> Of course, there are people who don't believe gaydar is real, and
> who think it's just stereotype. The people who attribute it to
> pheremones, too, will still say that looks mean nothing. I am very
> curious to know different opinions on this, as mine are mixed.
It's not pheromones. Pheromones might help with other things, but
not 'gaydar'. It's partly body language and partly fashion. And
maybe it is stereotype, but in practice stereotypes can serve a
purpose.
> Please feel free to tell me off if this is off topic or overly
> inflammatory; I do not intend it to be either.
Cheers,
Dan.
--
__ _______ ___ __ __
/ |/ / __/ __// // / # Dan Maloney.
/ /|_/ / _// /_ / _ / # Disclaimer: ICBW.
/_/ /_/___/\__//_//_/ # mailto:me...@toth.org.uk
Alain Cislaghi
wrote:
> It's not pheromones. Pheromones might help with other things, but
>not 'gaydar'. It's partly body language and partly fashion. And
>maybe it is stereotype, but in practice stereotypes can serve a
>purpose.
Oh, hey, cool, I was wondering what pheromones truly are and how they
really work... So, what's their role and what are they really doing,
how they work, y'know, for or against animals (like us, I presume,
altho I wouldn't swear), uh yeah, that are sensitive to'em, eh?
Peter H. Coffin
> and, well, the stereotypes came from somewhere. sometimes they're
> fabricated, but they often have a basis in reality.
THANK YOU!
Finally, someone else chimes in with what I've been getting evil looks
for saying for years: Stereotypes cannot exist where there isn't at
least a respectable background for the characteristic. Not all Irish
have red hair, but a lot more of them do than Egyptians.
--
Christian Biblical literalists are trusting themselves to an archaic English
translation of a Latin translation of (help me here) Greek? Aramaic? source.
I wouldn't even trust a VCR manual to make it through that intact. - Dr. Dee
Arius
"--nightshade--"
> Vojerleda wrote:
>
> > Our University's school of Education has the highest amount of
> > goth-looking folks in it- Kind of makes me wonder what the draw is.
>
Strangely effective strategy. I had a substitute teacher in elementary
school who was Goth (even if I didn't know what that was at the time) who
would take up on field trips of the cemetary next door to the school.
And recetly I've been debating taking on sub. teaching as a second job.
--
-Arius
"I never laugh until I've had my coffee." ---Clark Gable
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/gothpoet7
http://www.livejournal.com/users/von_arius/
http://portal.southerngothic.net/
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Vojerleda
> 'those who can, do...'
and those who can teach do more.. I don't like the 50's version of the rest
of that phrase. (those who can't, teach.) If I couldn't understand, perform,
and generally DO music, then I wouldn't teach it. I'm not that much of an
idiot. The idiots are out there, but there are many people in ALL fields of
education who say to themselves, "I want to teach X" not "I can't do X in
real life so I'll teach X in school." That latter idea is so dated.
Anywho,
toast your favorite dying art, whether it is reading a book instead of a
computer screen, gardening your own food, carving, or creating / listening
to music.
*clink*
my glass is half full.
Vojerleda
Rachael
> Finally, someone else chimes in with what I've been getting evil looks
> for saying for years: Stereotypes cannot exist where there isn't at
> least a respectable background for the characteristic. Not all Irish
> have red hair, but a lot more of them do than Egyptians.
Oh come on. It's only four per cent of the Irish that have red hair.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: Tourists expect to see lots of Irish
redheads, thus they look out for them.
Rachael
listening to Tiamat - The Astral Sleep
--
"Suavia musae... me delectant, me deiciunt, me consolantur."
Take your time, have in mind and remember... This is not supposed
to be a comfortable land / They live... Forced by an Ancient Entity
Tiny Human Ferret
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>
>>I think I know what Ihcoyc and I are having happen, it's our
>>Attracted-to-Tomboys proclivity manifesting even as the gaydar
>
> malfunctions.
>
> Any number of people remember me mostly for the line:
>
> "That's OK, I like to watch, too. . . ."
Heh, I was going to make some remark amounting to "there there" but then
again, sometimes watching could be made to work. Reminds me of the pizza guy
who fell victim to the old "I could get pregnant over the phone" joke and
was accosted with a turkey-baster and a packing crate full of smut, and
wound up paying child support a few years after what he thought was going to
be merely another case of "I like to watch, too".
What was his name? Devin, Evan... (ponder ponder)
Tiny Human Ferret
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>>
>>>Tiny Human Ferret:
>>>
>>>>IHCOYC XPICTOC wrote:
>>>
>
>>>>>I have a malfunctioning set or something. Create a group of
>>>>>women, some of whom are gay and others not, and I will
>>>>>inevitably be attracted to the lesbians.
>>>>
>
>>>>>Maybe it's sensible shoes or something.
>>>>
>
>>>>Maybe I wear goofy shoes that are um sending the wrong message?
>>>
>
>>>I nearly always seem to get hit on by the scary tracksuit
>>>wearing lesbians :-(
>>
>
>>Obviously we all have fashion-message problems.
>
>
>>Is there some bestseller pop-culture book that we forgot to buy?
>
>
> affliction.
Nah, the scary tracksuit lesbians will hit on _anyone_, except of course the
people with the sensible shoes. But don't feel bad, it could be worse, could
be obese women in spandex asking you to help them read the headlines on the
"Tattler". Or their twin brothers asking you if they look better with or
without their fake front teeth.
Tiny Human Ferret
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>
>>historically it's mostly been the gaydar of chickenhawks possessed
>>of the belief that it is their mission in life to wake me from my
>>boring heteroness into the glory of getting buggered. Delusion or
>>something.
>
>
> devices. from my own, admittedly flawed, observation of who
> expresses interest in me, i appear to be taken about 50/50
> either way.
Hrm.
After some years out of town, I made it back to the District. Walked into a
bar, and oveheard some very strange conversation, apparently regarding
myself. I was predictably dressed in some fairly loose jeans and a nice
shirt suitable for the office, no tie, and cheap black sneakers. The
conversation went something like "don't think of it that way, you can't fuck
'em" and the other part went something like "yeah, well okay, but is it male
or female" followed by "I guess we can tell by which bathroom it picks".
Maybe it's not so much 50-50 but they're trying to figure out if you're
their species or not.
Or, most likely, I'm just crazy.
Tiny Human Ferret
<much snippage>
> I don't do the gaydar thing entirely by looks. Body language is
> more of it, and patterns of speech, and particular behaviours.
Heh, $DEITY only knows what I'm sending, then.
Probably best summed up as "severely weird spooky fuck, with no font
sufficiently large to tattoo 'freak' on his forehead".
Oh, you said "particular', not "peculiar".
;-}
Tiny Human Ferret
> Vojerleda wrote:
>
>
>>Our University's school of Education has the highest amount of
>>goth-looking folks in it- Kind of makes me wonder what the draw is.
>
>
Woo, stole a march from the communists who destroyed US public-school math
teaching and made "politically correct" a 3rd-grade catchphrase.
How will history judge us.
Tiny Human Ferret
> Jennie wrote:
>
>>E.S. wrote:
>
>
>>>"OHMYGOD. She must be a total lesbo if she likes Melissa
>>>Etheridge." Responds the companion, "Yeah, she totally set off my
>>>gaydar the minute I walked in here."
>>
>
>> I don't know who Melissa Etheridge is,
>
>
> good stuff, if you enjoy that style.
>
>
>
>>but I suspect that basing assumptions about sexuality on music
>>alone is not terribly reliable - you might just as easily have
>>been Klaatu.
I keep confusing her with Tracy Chapman, for some reason. Not that Tracy
Chapman is bad; I happen to love her song "Fast Car". Lyrics are at
http://www.jellekok.nl/lyrics/tracy_chapman.html
<snips>
Tiny Human Ferret
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:45:41 -0400, --nightshade-- wrote:
>
>>and, well, the stereotypes came from somewhere. sometimes they're
>>fabricated, but they often have a basis in reality.
>
>
> THANK YOU!
>
> Finally, someone else chimes in with what I've been getting evil looks
> for saying for years: Stereotypes cannot exist where there isn't at
> least a respectable background for the characteristic. Not all Irish
> have red hair, but a lot more of them do than Egyptians.
I have to interject at this point in time that there are in fact germanic
types who are tan, disorganized and refuse to drink beer.
But it's probably not the way to sensibly bet.
Tiny Human Ferret
> "erithromycin" <erithr...@ananzi.co.za> wrote in message news:<3f5def74$0$12652$afc3...@news.ukonline.co.uk>...
>
>>E.S.:
<gobble>
>>>Please feel free to tell me off if this is off topic or overly
>>>inflammatory; I do not intend it to be either.
>>
>>For fuck's sake, less of this worry about off topicality or inflammation. I
>>mean, look at those other threads on going at the moment. We talk about a
>>bunch of stuff here. Fuck, I mean this thread even has 'goth' in the title.
>>
>
>
> I was just trying to be nice....
> ::sticks out tongue again::
>
> Are you always such a smartass?
You've barely scratched the surface.
I suspect... it's time for a p*ll!
How many of you guys have a seasonal thing going on, not necesarily SAD or
depressive in wintertime, but sort of inspired to a general freneticness or
dashing about as fall creeps in on its little cat feet? You know, probably
some holdover of gearing you up for the harvest so you won't both starve and
freeze come winter, but mostly manifesting as a sort of escalation of
zippiness?
Erith may be exhibiting such a thing, or I may have simply pushed him over
the edge with a recent post about Cellphone Abusers.
Tiny Human Ferret
> Whisky-Dave wrote:
>
>>erithromycin:
>>
>>>E.S.:
>>
>
>>>That's easy to fix - just carry a large pin with a card that says
>>>'girl' on it, and it's as easy as mounting butterflies.
>>
>
>>Never tried that, how do you managed it, they're so small and
>>delicate how do you balance I bet the wings stick together too.
>
>
>
>
>
>>>set of response, but usually you'll get better results with an IFF*
>>> ping.
>
>
>>Is that the 'finger' command ?
>
>
>
> `watch;
> wish;
> pine;
> date;
> expect;
> talk || ytalk;
> touch && finger && unzip && strip;
> head && tail && mount && tangle && bash && yes | more;
> umount;
> sleep;
> split;
> dump;
> whoami`
I know a geek mailing list, and if I crosspost this to it, I'll get about
100 responses of "so are they single and can I fix that problem" and about
30 more offers of "if they've got TS/Poly I can get them $100K just to make
the military coders amused and of good cheer enough to actually get some
work done; I don't care if they actually know anything but e-mails like that
triple productivity for 72 hours after they're received".
Looking for work? <evil grin>
Jennie
> How many of you guys have a seasonal thing going on, not necesarily SAD or
> depressive in wintertime, but sort of inspired to a general freneticness or
> dashing about as fall creeps in on its little cat feet?
Not me. I'm affected by the weather, in that excess heat will
make me sleepy, and pressure changes will make my joints ache, but
otherwise the seasons don't have much effect on me.
> Erith may be exhibiting such a thing, or I may have simply pushed him over
> the edge with a recent post about Cellphone Abusers.
Erith goes through such mood swings on a weekly cycle. ;)
Vojerleda
> Vojerleda wrote:
> > --nightshade-- wrote
>
> > > 'those who can, do...'
>
> > and those who can teach do more..
>
> that has no flow.
I happen to agree- wouldn't put it on a tote-bag (yes i've seen it) I was
just hoping to dispell a myth? perhaps? or maybe not.
> > I don't like the 50's version of the rest of that phrase. (those who
> > can't, teach.)
>
> i don't agree with it. i was stating it because it was obvious, and
> therefore less-than-witty. you'll find my humor to be sub-par.
that's ok, I can't golf either.
> > If I couldn't understand, perform,
> > and generally DO music, then I wouldn't teach it.
>
> i've had some excellent teachers and professors. the better ones have
> almost always been the ones with field experience. it may be the
> real-workd experience, oo it may be that the ones capable of 'doing' often
> 'do.'
>
> the other reason i disagree with the statement is that there is FAR more
> to being an effective teacher than being able to do the thing yourself.
> most primary school teachers can probably read and write at _at_leat_ a
> highschool level, but that doesn't make them effective.
And, most people who start college thinking, I"m good at this, i'd like to
teach it, don't think immediately about how well you explain things to
others. It just doesn't occur to them at first, then once they realise that
that is MOST of what teaching is, then hell.. they move to business or
something.
> > I'm not that much of an idiot. The idiots are out there, but there are
> > many people in ALL fields of education who say to themselves, "I want
> > to teach X" not "I can't do X in real life so I'll teach X in school."
> > That latter idea is so dated. Anywho,
>
> there are lots of idiots in every field who are incapable of doing
> whatever it is that they've been appointed to do. if everyone were
> competant, there wouldn't be enough work to keep half of society employed.
I had not thought of that before- should have been painfully obvious, given
the amount of idiots I encounter just in my piddly night-job.
> > toast your favorite dying art, whether it is reading a book instead of a
> > computer screen, gardening your own food, carving, or creating /
listening
> > to music.
>
> amen.
>
>
> > *clink*
> > my glass is half full.
>
> *clink*
> my glass is half broken.
Yay, broken glass! you could make a mosaic out of it....or not.
Voj
Jennie
> And, most people who start college thinking, I"m good at this, i'd like to
> teach it, don't think immediately about how well you explain things to
> others. It just doesn't occur to them at first, then once they realise that
> that is MOST of what teaching is, then hell.. they move to business or
> something.
Very often, when negotiating editing jobs, I find myself having
to insist "I can do this job _despite_ my degree!" People see an
impressive set of qualifications and assume that I won't have the
patience to work with writers who can hardly string a sentence together.
Personally, I have always seen that kind of work as an important part of
how I can pay society back for enabling me to get my degree in the first
place. The first responsibility of those with knowledge is, in most
instances, to share it.
IHCOYC XPICTOC
> I keep confusing her with Tracy Chapman, for some reason. Not that Tracy
> Chapman is bad; I happen to love her song "Fast Car". Lyrics are at
> http://www.jellekok.nl/lyrics/tracy_chapman.html
I like Tracy Chapman. She is solidly made. I suppose they both appeared at
about the same time, IIRC. I also like the "Fast Car" song, while I can't
seem to remember the names or lyrics of any of Melissa Etheridge's songs,
though I seem to recall that she is more traditionally rock. Of course
neither of 'em can hold a candle to Joan Jett.
But then I learned on a bad night visiting a friend in the hospital that
Melissa Etheridge chose David Crosby to be the father of her child. This is
not eugenic.
--
At the age of five years to enter a spinning-cotton or other factory, and
from that time forth to sit there daily, first ten, then twelve, and
ultimately fourteen hours, performing the same mechanical labour, is to
purchase dearly the satisfaction of drawing breath. But this is the fate of
millions, and that of millions more is analogous to it.
--- Arthur Schopenhauer
Joseph Brenner
> maestro wrote:
>
> > it's amazing that if you go through a shopping mall or anything else you
> > you will _always_ recognize the goths there, no matter how "downstyled"
> > they are, how subliminal their "gothness" is.
>
> Once Upon a Time I was in a mall for Christmas shopping and I picked up
> a shadow in a PJ Pets uniform. He tracked me from seeing me
> from that store all the way down the far corner of the
> bottom floor in another
> store And Then ... He Pounced.
>
> Hi, I saw you from the store and I just had to talk to you. You see it's
> not so often that I see a Real Victorian Goth around these parts -- not
> one of those Alien Sex Fiend Goths.
>
> Cough. Splutter. Cough. Er...
>
> So ya'll better watch out on the whole gothdar thing. Maybe it's better
> to be subtle-goth for those things, or you may misread the scale by
> going right over the top [or the top hat, as the case was here ;) ].
If you want us to understand this story, I think you need to
tell us how you were dressed at the time... is the point
that you're really an "Alien Sex Fiend Goth" who just
happened to be looking like a "Victorian Goth" that day?
Joseph Brenner
Jennie <jen...@penelope.triffid.demon.co.uk> writes:
> --nightshade-- wrote:
> > i suppose everyone is entitled to their own bizarre yoonique definitions
> > of their own gender, but if someone told me they didn't particularly have
> > any heterosexual leanings, though they had no qualms with pursuing the odd
> > MOTOS, but since they weren't doing so _right_ _now_...
>
> My flatmate ran into trouble with a girl like that last year.
> This chick had no concept of bisexuality, but was "being straight at the
> moment" when she had a boyfriend, and "back to being gay now" when she
> started chasing women again. She was trying to make some kind of cultural
> change each time she changed her sexual preferences, and making a much
> bigger deal of cultural differences than anybody else did.
That's kind of interesting. I've been wondering a bit
lately if there are still a bunch of people around who think
that their sexual preference matters a real lot. Just saw
the movie "Chasing Amy", which I found a haunting mix of
things that are effective, and things that strain
plausibility a lot. One of the harder things for me to
believe in was the idea that this mid-1990s New York hipster
lesbian would have some sort of identity crisis at the
thought of falling in love with a man. I thought that kind
of rigidity went out of style with the 70s...
(In general, all of the major characters in "Chasing Amy"
seem excessively rigid, as a device for cranking up the level
melodrama.)
Joseph Brenner
villag...@hotmail.com (E.S.) writes:
> Jennie <jen...@penelope.triffid.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Stereotypes are still relevant, because a lot of people play up
> > to them in order to send particular signals.
> Interesting point there, about stereotypes. I wonder how many gay men
> lisped before they wanted to attract other gay men. It seems that many
> of the ones I know actually developed one when they came out. Very few
> people actually lisp as adults, so it is very odd that a lisp would
> signal cultural desirability. Now that I think about it, I wonder how
> many that traits subcultures pick up as signals were from "the
> outside." I mean, certainly gay men didn't come up with the idea,
> rather, straight society tended to portray them that way, and now many
> of them play it up and wear it like a badge.
Well, why do you think that most convention-going science
fictions fans talk like refugees from some eastern european
country you've never heard of? I think they pick it up from
each other by contact.
Joseph Brenner
> I suspect... it's time for a p*ll!
>
> How many of you guys have a seasonal thing going on, not
> necesarily SAD or depressive in wintertime, but sort of
> inspired to a general freneticness or dashing about as fall
> creeps in on its little cat feet? You know, probably some
> holdover of gearing you up for the harvest so you won't both
> starve and freeze come winter, but mostly manifesting as a
> sort of escalation of zippiness?
I wish I was living some place that was creeping toward the
autumnal. Fucking 90 degree weather in San Francsico again...
this is not what I signed up for.
It does always make me feel better to see fog pouring down
out of the hills again.
erithromycin
>erith:
>>E.S.:
>>>Does the concept of "Gaydar" apply to goths in the same way it does to
>>>the average person walking down the street?
>>Oh, I mean, dude, yeah. Though often wrong. It's the black see? Gaydar
>>absorbent. I bet you didn't know it, but goth was invented by the
>>Ministry of Defence during the early 1980s
>That explains the occasional urge to shoot my boyfriend.
Indeed. In the trade, that's usually known as "green on green".
>>I am very curious to know different opinions on this, as mine are mixed.
>>Well, surely you know different opinions then, don't you? What you mean
>>is other people's, but I understand your confusion.
>::sticks out tongue::
If you're not careful the wind will change and you'll be kidnapped by a
lesbian commune and brainwashed. Well, something like that, anyway.
>>>Please feel free to tell me off if this is off topic or overly
>>>inflammatory; I do not intend it to be either.
>>For fuck's sake, less of this worry about off topicality or inflammation.
>>I mean, look at those other threads on going at the moment. We talk about
>>a bunch of stuff here. Fuck, I mean this thread even has 'goth' in the
>>title.
>I was just trying to be nice....
>::sticks out tongue again::
That could well be catching.
>Are you always such a smartass?
Jennie kindly refrained from replying to this, and told me so too.
Yes.
--
erith - well, when I'm not monstrously hungover
erithromycin
>erith:
>>E.S.:
>>That's easy to fix - just carry a large pin with a card that says 'girl'
>>on it, and it's as easy as mounting butterflies.
>Never tried that, how do you managed it, they're so small and delicate
>how do you balance I bet the wings stick together too.
Ah. This vaunted English sense of humour, no? You've infered that I was
using the word "mounted" to refer to the act of coition. How I laugh.
>>set of response, but usually you'll get better results with an IFF* ping.
>Is that the 'finger' command ?
See, this one's almost funny. No. You could never refer to an IFF ping as a
'finger' command because of that wee lecture of Tarantino's about 'Top Gun'.
Speaking of which, 'Kill Bill' Volume 1 is out the week before my Birthday,
which is, rather neatly, just before Whitby. I shall be seeing it. Oh yes.
How could I not see it? A sequence used _hundreds_of_gallons_ of stage
blood. _Hundreds!_
>>gets straightforward after a while, especially when you can compare
>>notes.
>Like trainspotting ;-)
Oh, yeah. Trainspotting is a worthy hobby. I have planespotted a tad, and am
capable of being interested in the extended demise of the slam door train. I
even have a mild fondness for weak lemon drink.
--
erith - i have even invented a hobby
erithromycin
>erithromycin wrote:
>>For fuck's sake, less of this worry about off topicality or inflammation.
>topical inflamation can be problematic. perhaps you need an ointment.
I 'as an ointerment for tereating crahbs. Will 'at do, d'yu think?
--
erith - I bain't goin' to be buyinn any more o' it but, i's a bit dear
erithromycin
>E.S. wrote:
>>erithromycin
>>>E.S.
><gobble>
>>>>Please feel free to tell me off if this is off topic or overly
>>>>inflammatory; I do not intend it to be either.
>>>For fuck's sake, less of this worry about off topicality or
>>>inflammation. I mean, look at those other threads on going at the
>>>moment. We talk about a bunch of stuff here. Fuck, I mean this thread
>>>even has 'goth' in the title.
>>I was just trying to be nice....
>>::sticks out tongue again::
>>Are you always such a smartass?
>You've barely scratched the surface.
Indeed. I am like a gothic iceberg. Which is much like a normal iceberg,
only gothic.
>I suspect... it's time for a p*ll!
>How many of you guys have a seasonal thing going on, not necesarily SAD or
>depressive in wintertime, but sort of inspired to a general freneticness
>or dashing about as fall creeps in on its little cat feet? You know,
>probably some holdover of gearing you up for the harvest so you won't
>both starve and freeze come winter, but mostly manifesting as a sort of
>escalation of zippiness?
Maybe. I think it's that I will be a whole 23 in a month and thirteen days,
and I am excited. Or that I intend to buy a graphics tablet next week. Or
maybe that I've got deadlines. It may be a lingering effect from stopping
drinking as much caffeine. Or it could be that I'm just a bit more cheerful
of late, which is expressing itself as it should, vitriolic outbursts.
Though yes, these are the months for _getting_things_done_, which are not to
be underestimated. So many shiny things to get. Oh yes.
Anyway, the nights are getting longer so I can make more use of the day, and
the moon has been fat and almost full these last few nights, which has
cheered me some. Summer is nearly over, so life can begin again. The day
star's dominion is fading! Long live the new sun!
>Erith may be exhibiting such a thing, or I may have simply pushed him over
>the edge with a recent post about Cellphone Abusers.
Thanks to the powers of my remarkable omni-directional post-punk hair, I am
all edge. Why, I even sleep as if I have been dropped from a great height.
As for abuse of cellphones, I have not even begun to start. It is simply a
device. For goodness sake, I even play Pokemon while walking down the
street. If that's not diversionary of attention, more so than reading a
book, then why would a text message be? You just lack faith.
--
erith - have some snake oil!
Jennie
> Indeed. I am like a gothic iceberg. Which is much like a normal iceberg,
> only gothic.
Does this mean you should beware of Penguins? [1]
> Maybe. I think it's that I will be a whole 23 in a month and thirteen days,
> and I am excited.
I had thought that you were not a great believer in birthdays,
at least not for yourself. Still, on this occasion, you know that if you
don't let us get you drunk at the time then we'll have other people get
you drunk at Whitby. ;)
> Anyway, the nights are getting longer so I can make more use of the day, and
> the moon has been fat and almost full these last few nights, which has
> cheered me some. Summer is nearly over, so life can begin again.
Indeed. At this time of year, everything sort of relaxes. Most
people have more energy. Sex ceases to be so exhaustingly sticky, and
social contact is more pleasant when shared body heat becomes a good
thing. The air is beginning to taste fresh again. I can smell the first of
the autumn gales approaching.
> The day star's dominion is fading! Long live the new sun!
Death to the Sons of Freyr! ;)
> As for abuse of cellphones, I have not even begun to start. It is simply a
> device. For goodness sake, I even play Pokemon while walking down the
> street. If that's not diversionary of attention, more so than reading a
> book, then why would a text message be? You just lack faith.
I am very careful if I use my phone whilst walking. I'm far more
likely to bump into people because I've been distracted by an interesting
bit of scenery, some curious behaviour, or a girl.
Jennie
[1] At least after their co-workers get their virus patches in gear, so
that they can regain access.
Jennie
> Speaking of which, 'Kill Bill' Volume 1 is out the week before my Birthday,
> which is, rather neatly, just before Whitby. I shall be seeing it. Oh yes.
> How could I not see it? A sequence used _hundreds_of_gallons_ of stage
> blood. _Hundreds!_
Is it all on screen, or did some of it end up on the cutting
room floor?
Jennie
Tetsab
> If you want us to understand this story, I think you need to
> tell us how you were dressed at the time...
But everyone should already know this from years and years
of reading my Netscrapes and Posts [my top hat and little
lace gloves are famous across the land]!
> is the point that you're really an "Alien Sex Fiend Goth"
> who just happened to be looking like a "Victorian Goth"
> that day?
Maybe this is a generational thing [note at this point that
I'm 23], but how many folks have you bumped into who choose
Alien Sex Fiend to be Best Representive of 'Fake Goth'?
[but mostly the point is (and that I assumed from years and
years of my hammering on and on about it) that I'm a big ole
flag waver for Early English Goth (& I mean flag waver in the
worst possible way; I'm a downright propagandist).
Ha ha. Veddy Funny.
Tetsab.
>^..^< [ach.. maybe it made H*ydn laugh. No, wait it's H*ydn].
Whisky-Dave
"Jennie" <jen...@penelope.triffid.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnbm6l97...@penelope.triffid.demon.co.uk...
> place. The first responsibility of those with knowledge is, in most
> instances, to share it.
But at what cost ?
Not forgetting that those that do have the knowledge usualy charge
a lot for parting with that knowledge, from computer programers
to doctors, to mechanics. I think everyone knows how expensive education
is, can we really afford to educate so many so highly just to be 'educated'
Do we really need 1000s of art and history students ?
Peter H. Coffin
> Do we really need 1000s of art and history students ?
I'd be in favor of it if they had better taste or actually knew some
history later.
--
"Meet it is I set it down
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain"
Vojerleda
<snip>
> Do we really need 1000s of art and history students ?
well, I have a theory about this. There is a large ( in my geographic region
anyway) margin of dropouts for the arts, whether they quit the degree plan
OR they complete it and 5 years into the game, decide it's worthless or not
for them. Of the handfuls left, only a few are actually really fucking GOOD
at what they do/discover/create, to the point that more than one person in
the entire world cares about what they are are up to, and give them money to
do so.
So, in this manner, the art students are the million or billion sperm (not
sure on the figures) heading for the creative genius of the egg. what are
the odds that ONE will rock totally, and make something of itself?
Vojerleda
erithromycin
>erithromycin wrote:
>>Indeed. I am like a gothic iceberg. Which is much like a normal iceberg,
>>only gothic.
>Does this mean you should beware of Penguins? [1]
Only because they induce me to spend money. I have a new graphics tablet
drawing thing, and it is dead good. However, my hatred of all Corel products
continues unabated. They are just wrong. Absolutely so, in fact. I do not
understand how one thing can be so wrong. Perhaps it is just the way in
which I am wired.
>>Maybe. I think it's that I will be a whole 23 in a month and thirteen
>>days, and I am excited.
> I had thought that you were not a great believer in birthdays,
>at least not for yourself.
I'm not. At least, I never have been. However, 23 seems like a reasonable
age to start, does it not? Anyway, there are six weeks in which I might
change my mind. The future is a malleable thing, only vaguely shaped by the
extruding vanes of the present, and more influenced by concentrations of
ingredients that have yet to pass. Where time is pasta, of course.
>Still, on this occasion, you know that if you don't let us get you drunk
>at the time then we'll have other people get you drunk at Whitby. ;)
I shall endeavour to remain sober so long as my public needs me. Though I
may need energy to build a fire, and I know not yet how I shall feel about
this football match that is in the offing. I may just go and get a pie, but
I itch for my old number*, but only in a vague way. Anyway, there will be
driving to do. Well, some, anyway, sometimes.
>>As for abuse of cellphones, I have not even begun to start. It is simply
>>a device. For goodness sake, I even play Pokemon while walking down the
>>street. If that's not diversionary of attention, more so than reading a
>>book, then why would a text message be? You just lack faith.
>I am very careful if I use my phone whilst walking. I'm far more
>likely to bump into people because I've been distracted by an interesting
>bit of scenery, some curious behaviour, or a girl.
I walk into things anyway. A telephone is no more distraction than continued
existence.
--
erith - *14, actually. In a proper squad numbering system (that is, one
which doesn't go to 40, because, let's face it, we weren't Chelsea), it'd
have been 5, since we tended to run a flat back 4-4-2, and I was way out on
the right. No, I don't think that influenced my political thinking. Ta.
erithromycin
>erithromycin wrote:
>>Speaking of which, 'Kill Bill' Volume 1 is out the week before my
>>Birthday, which is, rather neatly, just before Whitby. I shall be seeing
>>it. Oh yes. How could I not see it? A sequence used _hundreds_of_gallons_
>>of stage blood. _Hundreds!_
>Is it all on screen, or did some of it end up on the cutting
>room floor?
I'd imagine that all of it that they wanted on screen is on screen, though I
may have to wait for Volume II to see it. It matters not though. I am sure
that Volume I will be important for context. Even if it is just one big
fight from start to finish to start to finish, I am sure there will be
context, or at least context that is not boring.
--
erith - oh! tedious justification!
Jennie
> Jennie:
>>Does this mean you should beware of Penguins? [1]
> Only because they induce me to spend money. I have a new graphics tablet
> drawing thing, and it is dead good.
Is that the Emperor's fault, then? ;)
It does sound pretty cool. I am looking forward to trying it.
> However, my hatred of all Corel products continues unabated. They are
> just wrong. Absolutely so, in fact.
I spent part of this morning familiarising myself with the KDE
product Korganiser, which is fundamentally quite straightforward but does
its best to pretend otherwise.
> I'm not. At least, I never have been. However, 23 seems like a reasonable
> age to start, does it not?
As Gotterdammerung once told me (here or in upg). "Twenty three
is a very discordian age." :)
> The future is a malleable thing, only vaguely shaped by the
> extruding vanes of the present, and more influenced by concentrations of
> ingredients that have yet to pass. Where time is pasta, of course.
Now you're making me hungry.
I put on three pounds! Despite not eating much for the past week
(it can't all be moules). I'm dead pleased. :) This is me now at eight
stone ten, the heaviest I've been since I was on 15mg of prednisolone per
day, and it bodes well for building up weight before the pregnancy. I
think it must be due to the fact I've managed to get more exercise, so
food is turning into something useful instead of just going through me.
In less cool news, I have osteopaenia of the spine. Because of
my weird calcium metabolism, no-one knows what (if anything) can be done
about it. They've chickened out of giving me a calcium supplement but have
basically told me to consume more by myself, even if I have to do it in
pill form - they just don't want to take responsibility. Osteopaenia is
not immediately dangerous, but it might become so if exacerbated by the
pregnancy. :(
On my way home from the hospital, I bought a big block of
mozzarella and ate it all, raw. It's a start.
> I shall endeavour to remain sober so long as my public needs me.
I think your public is often better entertained when you're
drunk. ;)
> Though I may need energy to build a fire,
What's happening about the fire, anyway? Didn't some idiot
schedule bands for that day?
> and I know not yet how I shall feel about this football match that is
> in the offing.
Damn it, I'd love to play, but I really doubt my knees will let
me; November is just about the worst time of year for them, after all,
because of the pressure changes and damp. Maybe I can get them into good
enough condition to have a go in April.
> I may just go and get a pie, but I itch for my old number*,
I used to be quite good at football, but I never did get the
hang of that sort of pie. :\
> Anyway, there will be driving to do. Well, some, anyway, sometimes.
No way are you driving all the time. We can get taxis if
necessary. You need to be able to enjoy yourself.
Jennie
Nightfall
"E.S." ...
<snip>
> Similarly, the smell of clove usually sets off my gothdar. I hate
> smoke and don't smoke myself, but when I smell clove cigarettes, I
> suddenly feel more...at home, I suppose. I wonder how many people in
> the goth subculture picked up the habit as a signal and use it like a
> robin's chest. (I myself use a dab of clove and cinammon aromatherapy
> oil on the pulse points as a relaxer, but now I wonder if
> subconsciously I want the scent to get picked up when I am dressed
> down, sort of a less short-distance gothdar pheromone.)
Are you using a perfume oil or the pure essentials? I adore both clove and
cinnamon (probably to do with baking and my mother as much as with goth),
but have a difficult time with the essential oils' heating quality. Well,
with cinnamon, anyway; I don't think I've been able to locate clove in
essential oil form.
I have a hard time wearing commercial perfumes, with all of their
additives, and generally prefer simple, warm scents such as clove,
cinnamon, vanilla, etc. I find that people also tend to react particularly
well to me when wearing such, plus they put me in a good mood. Not to
mention which, short-distance gothdar pheromones could be incredibly
useful, as far as I'm concerned. Ah. aromatherapy is a useful tool.
Nightfall
Nightfall
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
> > I keep confusing her with Tracy Chapman, for some reason. Not that
Tracy
> > Chapman is bad; I happen to love her song "Fast Car". Lyrics are at
> > http://www.jellekok.nl/lyrics/tracy_chapman.html
>
> I like Tracy Chapman. She is solidly made. I suppose they both appeared
at
> about the same time, IIRC. I also like the "Fast Car" song, while I
can't
> seem to remember the names or lyrics of any of Melissa Etheridge's songs,
> though I seem to recall that she is more traditionally rock. Of course
> neither of 'em can hold a candle to Joan Jett.
I thought Melissa Etheridge had been around much longer, but you’re right.
I had no idea that the album I had was her first. There are some
beautifully tragic songs on it, though, and some excellent angry break-up
ones. But yes, more traditional sounding than Tracy Chapman.
Nightfall
Nightfall
> <gobble>
>
> I suspect... it's time for a p*ll!
>
> How many of you guys have a seasonal thing going on, not necesarily SAD
or
> depressive in wintertime, but sort of inspired to a general freneticness
or
> dashing about as fall creeps in on its little cat feet? You know,
probably
> some holdover of gearing you up for the harvest so you won't both starve
and
> freeze come winter, but mostly manifesting as a sort of escalation of
> zippiness?
>
> Erith may be exhibiting such a thing, or I may have simply pushed him
over
> the edge with a recent post about Cellphone Abusers.
Hmm, I always assumed it was a holdover from back when school used to start
up in September - new year, fresh start and all. It has always seemed to me
to be the beginning of the cycle; far, far more than New Year's ever did.
That, and the earlier onset of twilight seems to fill me with energy. I
love the breeze that picks up just as the sun drifts to the horizon - it
gives me more bounce than I have generally had since May (my other favorite
month).
Plus, October is just around the corner, which in our family means scads of
birthdays, plus Halloween.
I'd never thought of it as a remainder of harvesting instinct, but you may
well be right. Hmph. Interesting.
Nightfall
Nightfall
"Jennie" ...
>
> I put on three pounds! Despite not eating much for the past
week
> (it can't all be moules). I'm dead pleased. :) This is me now at eight
> stone ten, the heaviest I've been since I was on 15mg of prednisolone per
> day, and it bodes well for building up weight before the pregnancy. I
> think it must be due to the fact I've managed to get more exercise, so
> food is turning into something useful instead of just going through me.
> In less cool news, I have osteopaenia of the spine. Because of
> my weird calcium metabolism, no-one knows what (if anything) can be done
> about it. They've chickened out of giving me a calcium supplement but
have
> basically told me to consume more by myself, even if I have to do it in
> pill form - they just don't want to take responsibility. Osteopaenia is
> not immediately dangerous, but it might become so if exacerbated by the
> pregnancy. :(
Is osteopaenia similar to osteoporosis? How frustrating – calcium buildup
where you don’t want it, yet not enough where you *need* it. Good luck with
the supplementation. Will eating it naturally (dairy, spinach, etc) fare
better than pill form, wherein it’s concentrated?
Nightfall
Nightfall
"Joseph Brenner" ...
>
> Jennie <jen...@penelope.triffid.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> > --nightshade-- wrote:
>
> > > i suppose everyone is entitled to their own bizarre yoonique
definitions
> > > of their own gender, but if someone told me they didn't particularly
have
> > > any heterosexual leanings, though they had no qualms with pursuing
the odd
> > > MOTOS, but since they weren't doing so _right_ _now_...
> >
> > My flatmate ran into trouble with a girl like that last
year.
> > This chick had no concept of bisexuality, but was "being straight at
the
> > moment" when she had a boyfriend, and "back to being gay now" when she
> > started chasing women again. She was trying to make some kind of
cultural
> > change each time she changed her sexual preferences, and making a much
> > bigger deal of cultural differences than anybody else did.
>
> That's kind of interesting. I've been wondering a bit
> lately if there are still a bunch of people around who think
> that their sexual preference matters a real lot. Just saw
I think Erith said this somewhere back a bit, but I believe sexuality falls
along a continuum, with the majority of people weighted towards the
straight end of the line, and what, 10%-ish? (I seem to recall having read
that somewhere) weighted towards the gay end. Everyone else falls somewhere
in-between. Was it Rome where being all the way on _either_ end was
considered dysfunctional? I seem to recall reading that somewhere, too.
Is this liable to start the torches oo flamethrowers, I wonder?
It's interesting, also, how people tend to equate bisexuality with having
both at the same time, as if you unequivocally sacrifice something by
committing to one person of (presumably) one gender. I am, however, able to
be attracted to people without _having_ to sleep with them. I wouldn't be
able to be monogamous - whether straight, gay or mutt - otherwise.
> the movie "Chasing Amy", which I found a haunting mix of
> things that are effective, and things that strain
> plausibility a lot. One of the harder things for me to
> believe in was the idea that this mid-1990s New York hipster
> lesbian would have some sort of identity crisis at the
> thought of falling in love with a man. I thought that kind
> of rigidity went out of style with the 70s...
I liked Chasing Amy a lot, although I'll agree it was a little on the
melodramatic side. But I think that has less to do with mainstream culture
than it does with my biased opinions and perspective. The Silent Bob
concept, though, of eternally chasing after something you'd accidentally
lost, I found very poignant.
Nightfall
Tiny Human Ferret
> Vojerleda wrote:
>
>>--nightshade-- wrote
>>
>>>
>>>>--nightshade-- wrote
<CHOMP>
>>I happen to agree- wouldn't put it on a tote-bag (yes i've seen it) I was
>>just hoping to dispell a myth? perhaps? or maybe not.
>
>
> perhaps you were, or perhaps you were successful? myths are funny things.
> they don't go away. and we have all the wrong ones. we need more, but
> different kinds.
I suppose I really should get back to work. Now where did Poppy get off to,
anyway?
<snipx>
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
Tiny Human Ferret
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>
>>I keep confusing her with Tracy Chapman, for some reason. Not that Tracy
>>Chapman is bad; I happen to love her song "Fast Car". Lyrics are at
>>http://www.jellekok.nl/lyrics/tracy_chapman.html
>
>
> I like Tracy Chapman. She is solidly made. I suppose they both appeared at
> about the same time, IIRC. I also like the "Fast Car" song, while I can't
> seem to remember the names or lyrics of any of Melissa Etheridge's songs,
> though I seem to recall that she is more traditionally rock. Of course
> neither of 'em can hold a candle to Joan Jett.
D00d: Joan Jett, and I shit you not, was the daughter of my
elementary-school principal. She ran away from home in, like, 6th grade. Now
that is punk-rock cred.
Then again there was this DC event where Joan Jett, Power Station, and the
Beach Boys were all on the same bill for July Fourth. I got off the
metrorail to hear a stinging lead from Jimmy Page leading back into the
refrain of "Help Me Rhonda (da do ron ron)" vocals. It got weirder from
there. I went full-tilt Goth shortly thereafter. You would too. Um okay you
did. Heh.
>
> But then I learned on a bad night visiting a friend in the hospital that
> Melissa Etheridge chose David Crosby to be the father of her child. This is
> not eugenic.
More proof that shit is seriously wrong on planet earth.
Tiny Human Ferret
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>>
>>>Jennie wrote:
>>
>
>>>> I don't know who Melissa Etheridge is,
>>>
>
>>>lezbo musician/singer. kinda folky rock. sexy voice. energetic.
>>>good stuff, if you enjoy that style.
>>
>
>>>>but I suspect that basing assumptions about sexuality on music
>>>>alone is not terribly reliable - you might just as easily have
>>>>been Klaatu.
>>>
>
>>I keep confusing her with Tracy Chapman, for some reason. Not that Tracy
>>Chapman is bad; I happen to love her song "Fast Car". Lyrics are at
>>http://www.jellekok.nl/lyrics/tracy_chapman.html
>
>
>
> compare and contrast:
>
> http://www.lyricsfind.com/lyrics/301/3338.php
>
>
> not as political, similar personal feel, IMO.
Um yes. both songs have sentiments as old as the Model-T and the roads that
were built for it.
"We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's 300 miles to
Chicago, and we're wearing sunglasses in the dark."
"Got a lighter?"
"Yeah."
"Let's roll."
Love the Blues Brothers.
BTW, there's a correction to the Tracy Chapman lyrics
And I remember
We were driving
Driving in your car
Speeding so fast, felt like I was drunk
City lights laid out before us
My arms and legs wrapped 'round your shoulders and
I, I
I felt like I belonged and
I, I
I felt like I could be someone,
Be someone, be someone
Jennie
> "Jennie" ...
>> In less cool news, I have osteopaenia of the spine. Because of
>> my weird calcium metabolism, no-one knows what (if anything) can be done
>> about it.
> Is osteopaenia similar to osteoporosis?
It's the term used when bones have below average calcium, but
are not sufficiently lacking in it to be fragile as a result. Osteopaenia
isn't an immediate problem, but the danger is that it'll get worse until
osteoporosis occurs. Of course, during pregnancy, one can lose up to a
quarter of the calcium stored in one's bones. It tends to be replaced
pretty quickly afterwards, but this could mean I'm vulnerable to
osteoporosis for a while. :( Not what I want when I'm off balance and
carrying extra weight around. The other issue is that I'm relatively
young, and calcium tends to be lost from bones as part of the aging process.
> How frustrating – calcium buildupwhere you don’t want it, yet not
> enough where you *need* it.
I am hoping that some of the calcium in the wrong places will be
reabsorbed during pregnancy, which would help to reduce the loss from my
bones and which is also probably my best chance of surgery-free recovery.
It's because of the calcinosis that nobody really knows how to
treat the osteopaenia. Although it seems unlikely to me, and most
researchers in the field agree, there are still those who worry than an
increased intake of calcium will make the calcinosis worse, perhaps
dangerously so. However, I figure my skeleton is of greater immediate
importance, and that, if not all the calcium I consume is going to the
right place, I really should have more.
> Good luck with the supplementation. Will eating it naturally (dairy,
> spinach, etc) fare better than pill form, wherein it’s concentrated?
You know, that's a really good point, which no doctor has
mentioned. I'm pretty sure you're right - that is, eating it should mean
that it's metabolised more slowly, or over a longer period of time, which
may improve the chances of it being metabolised correctly.
Erith bought me a big vanilla milkshake today, and I had salmon
sushi, and I bought a book about fish, so that's a start. :) It's not
the best time for me to be trying to add dairy to my diet, however, as
I've been feeling nauseous a lot lately anyway, and have consequently had
trouble eating much of anything - I think I have just a wee touch of a
cold. I did my best to drive that out with wasabi. I guess I'll see how it
goes.
Jennie
> I think everyone knows how expensive education is,
Education isn't all about schools and universities. We can all
find opportunities to teach and to learn all around us, in the course of
our daily lives.
> can we really afford to educate so many so highly just to be 'educated'
> Do we really need 1000s of art and history students ?
There's a difference between putting people through a formal
education and having them actually learn something. The trouble with the
UK government's current approach is that they're pushing into universities
all sorts of people who are neither sufficiently capable nor sufficiently
interested to make something of that experience. Lowering standards to
ensure plenty of people pass does not equate to successfully creating more
people with real academic skills and knowledge.
Art and history both have value to us as a society, and we need
good students to learn about them; but you're right, we don't need
thousands, not when many among them won't make the effort to understand
what they're being taught. I'm for giving everyone access to education
so far as financial and social factors are concerned, but a successful
education system must base itself on merit, with only those who perform
well enough [1] being allowed to continue. For those who don't make the
mark, there ought to be more practical opportunities, opportunities for
them to gain ceryification that means something. Better technical
education facilities are something which the UK desperately needs.
Jennie
[1] There will always be some appropriate exceptions to this, where, for
instance, a student's recent performance has been affected by serious
personal difficulties but other evidence suggests that student is
otherwise very capable.
Jennie
news.newsguy.com>, --nightshade-- wrote:
> others might say that an educated populace would collapse the society
> we've built, which plainly requires ignorance.
I used to know a guy who managed a production line where people
stuffed envelopes. He would go out of his way to find intelligent people
to work on that line, because, he said, they were the ones who stuck at it
the longest, despite having better than average prospects elsewhere. His
reasoning was that intelligent, educated people can stand boring work
because they have something to talk about, and because they can entertain
themselves inside their own heads, with thoughts. People who lacked those
abilities, he observed, got bored much more quickly.
Jennie
Jennie
> I don't think I've been able to locate clove in essential oil form.
Would that be different from clove oil as used in cooking? If
not, a cookery store might be what you're after - there are bound to be
spice specialists online who carry it.
Jennie
> That's kind of interesting. I've been wondering a bit
> lately if there are still a bunch of people around who think
> that their sexual preference matters a real lot.
Maybe, given where you live, you've been leading a rather
sheltered life. Which is not an unenviable thing. This certainly is still
a big issue to a lot of people in most cities where I've spent any time.
People tend to take more of a live and let live attitude than they did,
say, ten years ago, but many still set very strict standards for themselves,
connecting sexual preference strongly to identity.
> One of the harder things for me to believe in was the idea that this
> mid-1990s New York hipster lesbian would have some sort of identity
> crisis at the thought of falling in love with a man.
One would think she would at least have encountered such things,
if not, previously, directly experienced them.
I know women who have male partners and still think of
themselves as lesbian. I guess that makes a certain amount of sense if
their attraction to men is very rare. Rather more in that position
identify themselves as bisexual but 'mostly lesbian', which is, again, all
about communicating life experiences and future probabilities.
It does piss me off when I hear people in the gay scene refer to
any motos couple as 'straight'. On the last Pride march I attended, there
were whoops and cheers when a young man and woman who had been standing
beside one another on the kerb chose to join the parade. "Look, that
straight couple are joining us" and "He's really queer" were among the
comments which followed. It seemed to me very rude to assume (a) that they
were a couple (as if people never have opposite sex friends), and (b) that
their current relationship, if such it was, defined their sexual
identities and identified their sexual histories. But some gay people are
like recovering Christians - they think their big revelation has led them
to understand everything, and they don't think about the bigger picture.
Jennie
> I think Erith said this somewhere back a bit, but I believe sexuality falls
> along a continuum, with the majority of people weighted towards the
> straight end of the line, and what, 10%-ish? (I seem to recall having read
> that somewhere) weighted towards the gay end.
Aye; and this is often misinterpreted as 'ten percent of people
are gay or bisexual, everyone else is straight'. It also encourages the
common (and demonstrably incorrect) assumption that bisexuals will always
settle down with opposite sex partners in the end. Then we get the
'bi-curious' people, which is fair enough in and of itself, but many
refuse to consider identifying any other way even if they are repeatedly,
frequently and exuberantly curious. ;)
I am curious as to what kind of debate the forthcoming Kinsey
film is going to provoke, since the climate has changed so much since he
conducted his famous studies. Of course, there are any number of people
studying sexuality now, but still relatively few who employ stringent
methods. It's a field rife with personal agendas.
> Is this liable to start the torches oo flamethrowers, I wonder?
I suspect most of that's been done. ;) Besides, so far as a.g.
is concerned, what you've suggested is largely supported by years of
Netscrape data.
One interesting observation which can be made about the
Netscrapes is that, over the past three years or so, there has been an
increasing trend toward fuzzy definitions of sexuality. The proportion of
gay people hasn't changed; the proportion of people labelling themselves
as bisexual has gone down slightly, and the proportion of people
describing themselves as 'straight, but with some exceptions' or 'straight
but curious' has increased, most notably among males. I suspect this tells
us something about wider social changes. Has it become more acceptable for
a straight men to admit to a few gay episodes without having to
re-identify himself and change his cultural affiliations?
> It's interesting, also, how people tend to equate bisexuality with having
> both at the same time, as if you unequivocally sacrifice something by
> committing to one person of (presumably) one gender. I am, however, able to
> be attracted to people without _having_ to sleep with them. I wouldn't be
> able to be monogamous - whether straight, gay or mutt - otherwise.
I think this is different for different people. I've a friend
who broke up with her last boyfriend partly because she really missed
sleeping with women, and he wanted to be monogamous. She now feels that
she can only ever be happy if she is free to sleep with at least one man
and one woman. In my own case, I find that the sex of other people I'm
attracted to doesn't change depending on the sex of my partner(s) at the
time. I haven't slept with a woman for about three years, and I don't
specifically miss it; I don't think that would be different the other way
round. I find that sex with different individuals is always such a
distinct experience that there will always be something I like which we
can't do, but that's not a big deal, provided that most of it works.
There's been more difference in the sex I've had between vanilla and
SM-inclined partners than between men and women.
Erin Nelson
> I have a hard time wearing commercial perfumes, with all of their
> additives, and generally prefer simple, warm scents such as clove,
> cinnamon, vanilla, etc. I find that people also tend to react particularly
> well to me when wearing such, plus they put me in a good mood. Not to
mmm. I used to wear straight vanilla extract (the clear, glycerin kind
used for decorative icing) as scent. But even the most mild forms
eventually irritated my skin so i gave up on scent. *sigh* I liked
smelling like tasty baked goods!
erin
E.S.
I use clove essential oil in which cinnamon bark has been dissolved.
Most perfumes give me a rash, as would an undiluted oil, but this is
mixed with just enough safflower oil. I purchased it at either Bath
and Body Works or The Body Shop. I can't recall which one. The only
other scent I wear regularly is a vanilla body spray from Victoria's
secret. I can only use a little bit at a time, but I have the matching
lotion and shower gel.
I smell like a baker's, but I find that much nicer than smelling like
a refrigerator full of rotting fruit or an abandoned greenhouse, which
seems to be quite popular nowadays.
I also have this odd chewing gum that makes my breath smell like
violet and clove as well as violet breathmints made by the same
company. I eagerly await the day when I find breathmints or gum with
real violet extract. As far as I know the only company that ever
imported them into the country is based in France and no longer cares
to share its bounty with this francophobe nation. Victorian women used
them because real violets contain a chemical that deadens the nose
temporarily, creating a cycle of intense flower aroma that disappears
as soon as you detect it. Kissing somebody who has used them is
allegedly a fascinating event. Since so few people use the
artificially flavored ones, though, it knocked my boyfriend's socks
off the first time we kissed. Most people have never tasted violets.
--E.S.
Erin Nelson
> BTW, there's a correction to the Tracy Chapman lyrics
>
> My arms and legs wrapped 'round your shoulders and
um, not the song I have and listen to. "Your arm felt nice wrapped
round my shoulder and"
erin
Tiny Human Ferret
She sings it one way, I sing along the other way. More interesting dontcha know.
The Emperor Penguin
> >erithromycin wrote:
>
> >>Indeed. I am like a gothic iceberg. Which is much like a normal iceberg,
> >>only gothic.
>
> >Does this mean you should beware of Penguins? [1]
>
> Only because they induce me to spend money.
That's good. I shouldn't like you to think you had any other reasons
to beware of Penguins. No. Not at all.
> I have a new graphics tablet
> drawing thing, and it is dead good. However, my hatred of all Corel products
> continues unabated. They are just wrong. Absolutely so, in fact. I do not
> understand how one thing can be so wrong. Perhaps it is just the way in
> which I am wired.
Must be. Lets face it, the rest of your wiring ain't always too hot.
Personally, I like Corel Photopaint. Of course, I was kind of brought
up on it, so maybe it's a nurture thing. OTOH and my brother has been
involved in product development for it, so perhaps it's a nature
thing.
Mind you, I haven't even installed the software that came with the
tablet (there didn't seem much point in installing a "sketchpad" when
I already have the whole "studio", as it were), so maybe it is indeed
evil
~~~
The Emperor Penguin
Erin Nelson
> She sings it one way, I sing along the other way. More interesting dontcha know.
dOOd, donthca know by now that i need some kind of warning or standy when
you're going to be funny?
erin the literal minded
Tiny Human Ferret
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
>>--nightshade-- wrote:
>>
>>>Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>>>
>>>>--nightshade-- wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Jennie wrote:
>>>>
>
>>>>I keep confusing her with Tracy Chapman, for some reason. Not that Tracy
>>>>Chapman is bad; I happen to love her song "Fast Car". Lyrics are at
>>>>http://www.jellekok.nl/lyrics/tracy_chapman.html
>>>
>
>>>that song keeps popping up in the soundtrack to my life.
>>
>
>>>compare and contrast:
>>
>
>>> http://www.lyricsfind.com/lyrics/301/3338.php
>>
>
>>>not as political, similar personal feel, IMO.
>>
>
>>Um yes. both songs have sentiments as old as the Model-T and the roads that
>>were built for it.
>
>
>
>
>
>>"We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's 300 miles to
>>Chicago, and we're wearing sunglasses in the dark."
>
>
>>"Got a lighter?"
>
>
>>"Yeah."
>
>
>>"Let's roll."
>
>
>>Love the Blues Brothers.
>
>
> miles to chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes,
> it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses. / hit it."
>
> i suppose i was exposed an inordinate amount to that film, living there.
Hey, you can only watch that and "Animal House" night after night in drunken
stupors before it all starts to blur. Plus the last time I saw that was a
while back...
>
>
>
>>BTW, there's a correction to the Tracy Chapman lyrics
>
>
>>My arms and legs wrapped 'round your shoulders and
>
>
> that's an, umm, interesting, correction.
>
> but yes, i hear people do that in cars, too.
And unless you've got an old Detroit behemoth, that's about the only
position that will work in the modern tiny back seat, with the doors shut,
anyway.
Holy crap, I actually degenerated this _back_ into a Sex Thread.
Nightfall
> In article <adP9b.481956$uu5.82789@sccrnsc04>, Nightfall wrote:
> > I think Erith said this somewhere back a bit, but I believe sexuality
falls
> > along a continuum, with the majority of people weighted towards the
> > straight end of the line, and what, 10%-ish? (I seem to recall having
read
> > that somewhere) weighted towards the gay end.
>
> Aye; and this is often misinterpreted as 'ten percent of people
> are gay or bisexual, everyone else is straight'. It also encourages the
> common (and demonstrably incorrect) assumption that bisexuals will always
> settle down with opposite sex partners in the end. Then we get the
> 'bi-curious' people, which is fair enough in and of itself, but many
> refuse to consider identifying any other way even if they are repeatedly,
> frequently and exuberantly curious. ;)
My personal opinion is that virtually everybody is bi-curious, bisexual, or
whatever you want to call it (in differing amounts), whether they admit it
or are aware of it. If someone were absolutely 100% straight, I don’t think
they would be able to conceptualize oo judge the attractiveness of a MOTSS.
If absolutely 100% gay, the same to a MOTOS. I don’t think they would have
any frame of reference. Of course I could be wrong; one possible argument
might involve judging others’ attractiveness in reference to one’s own
appearance, but I’m not sure how I feel about that.
This isn’t to say that if social restrictions were lifted everyone would
suddenly be interested in having sex with both sides of the fence, just
that, like I said, sexuality falls along a continuum, and while people may
be weighted to one end or the other, I suspect very, very few define either
endpoint.
> One interesting observation which can be made about the
> Netscrapes is that, over the past three years or so, there has been an
> increasing trend toward fuzzy definitions of sexuality. The proportion of
> gay people hasn't changed; the proportion of people labelling themselves
> as bisexual has gone down slightly, and the proportion of people
> describing themselves as 'straight, but with some exceptions' or
'straight
> but curious' has increased, most notably among males. I suspect this
tells
> us something about wider social changes. Has it become more acceptable
for
> a straight men to admit to a few gay episodes without having to
> re-identify himself and change his cultural affiliations?
I don’t know that it’s gone so far as that, but I have noticed that it is
becoming more acceptable for men to admit to finding other men attractive
and such. This is in my observed portion of the general populace. In terms
of the goth community, I think they tend to be a bit more progressive in
such things, so you may be right.
> > It's interesting, also, how people tend to equate bisexuality with
having
> > both at the same time, as if you unequivocally sacrifice something by
> > committing to one person of (presumably) one gender. I am, however,
able to
> > be attracted to people without _having_ to sleep with them. I wouldn't
be
> > able to be monogamous - whether straight, gay or mutt - otherwise.
>
> I think this is different for different people. I've a friend
> who broke up with her last boyfriend partly because she really missed
> sleeping with women, and he wanted to be monogamous. She now feels that
> she can only ever be happy if she is free to sleep with at least one man
> and one woman. In my own case, I find that the sex of other people I'm
> attracted to doesn't change depending on the sex of my partner(s) at the
> time. I haven't slept with a woman for about three years, and I don't
> specifically miss it; I don't think that would be different the other way
> round. I find that sex with different individuals is always such a
> distinct experience that there will always be something I like which we
> can't do, but that's not a big deal, provided that most of it works.
> There's been more difference in the sex I've had between vanilla and
> SM-inclined partners than between men and women.
I agree completely that YMMV, and probably should have said so more clearly
in my post. My experience runs more closely to yours, although I am, I
think, shifted more to the ‘straight side’ than you. If I were with a woman
long-term, I think I would miss a man, more so than I currently miss women.
Either way, I’m still attracted to both men and women, I just choose my
partner over any of them, unless or until the rules of our relationship
change.
Nightfall
Nightfall
> In article <E3P9b.477043$YN5.324213@sccrnsc01>, Nightfall wrote:
> > I don't think I've been able to locate clove in essential oil form.
>
> Would that be different from clove oil as used in cooking? If
> not, a cookery store might be what you're after - there are bound to be
> spice specialists online who carry it.
It probably would be the same, which is actually a good thought for the
kitchen, as I like to cook with clove, too. For the skin, though, I am
almost certain it would be too strong and end up burning me. Clove and
cinnamon both have _very_ warming properties, and I have annoyingly
sensitive skin.
Nightfall
Nightfall
You could try www.gardenbotanika.com for pure vanilla perfume. That's what
I use, and I have no problems with it, as it isn't an essential oil, and it
's diluted by perfumer's alcohol. I bought mine quite a while ago, however;
before they closed their retail stores and changed their packaging, so I
can't guarantee they haven't changed the ingredients or the quality.
Unfortunately, they carry neither cinnamon nor clove, and their spice is
too sweet for me (I suspect it includes elements of licorice). I also
occasionally use Vanilla Musk from the Body Shop, although I have to let it
air out for a bit before I get into the car or another enclosed area, and
it's not as simple a fragrance.
A lot of people that post on agf (or at least used to) raved about Demeter
fragrances, especially in terms of smelling like foods. I don't know if
they're still in business or what the irritation factor was, but you might
try inquiring there, or Googling for old threads.
Nightfall
Nyx
$uu5.85881@sccrnsc04:
> For the skin, though, I am
> almost certain it would be too strong and end up burning me.
Dilute it with jojoba oil.
Nyx
--
Fair and Balanced
www.sxxxy.org
Nightfall
> "Nightfall" <nigh...@spamthirteen74.com> wrote in news:eSsab.512425
> $uu5.85881@sccrnsc04:
>
> > For the skin, though, I am
> > almost certain it would be too strong and end up burning me.
>
> Dilute it with jojoba oil.
But then I'd end up greasy, no?
Nightfall
Nightfall
> "Nightfall" ...
> > "E.S." ...
> > <snip>
> > I have a hard time wearing commercial perfumes, with all of their
> > additives, and generally prefer simple, warm scents such as clove,
> > cinnamon, vanilla, etc. I find that people also tend to react
particularly
> > well to me when wearing such, plus they put me in a good mood. Not to
> > mention which, short-distance gothdar pheromones could be incredibly
> > useful, as far as I'm concerned. Ah. aromatherapy is a useful tool.
>
> Most perfumes give me a rash, as would an undiluted oil, but this is
> mixed with just enough safflower oil. I purchased it at either Bath
> and Body Works or The Body Shop. I can't recall which one. The only
> other scent I wear regularly is a vanilla body spray from Victoria's
> secret. I can only use a little bit at a time, but I have the matching
> lotion and shower gel.
Was the clove/cinnamon/safflower one of the customized blends, or something
pre-packaged? I think I smell a shopping expedition coming on...
> I also have this odd chewing gum that makes my breath smell like
> violet and clove as well as violet breathmints made by the same
> company. I eagerly await the day when I find breathmints or gum with
> real violet extract. As far as I know the only company that ever
> imported them into the country is based in France and no longer cares
> to share its bounty with this francophobe nation. Victorian women used
> them because real violets contain a chemical that deadens the nose
> temporarily, creating a cycle of intense flower aroma that disappears
> as soon as you detect it. Kissing somebody who has used them is
> allegedly a fascinating event. Since so few people use the
> artificially flavored ones, though, it knocked my boyfriend's socks
> off the first time we kissed. Most people have never tasted violets.
Where do you get these? I love trying new flavors, and I, too, have never
tasted violets. ;)
Nightfall
Nightfall
> In article <_8P9b.481914$uu5.82479@sccrnsc04>, Nightfall wrote:
> > "Jennie" ...
> >> In less cool news, I have osteopaenia of the spine. Because
of
> >> my weird calcium metabolism, no-one knows what (if anything) can be
done
> >> about it.
> > Good luck with the supplementation. Will eating it naturally (dairy,
> > spinach, etc) fare better than pill form, wherein it's concentrated?
>
> You know, that's a really good point, which no doctor has
> mentioned. I'm pretty sure you're right - that is, eating it should mean
> that it's metabolised more slowly, or over a longer period of time, which
> may improve the chances of it being metabolised correctly.
> Erith bought me a big vanilla milkshake today, and I had salmon
> sushi, and I bought a book about fish, so that's a start. :) It's not
> the best time for me to be trying to add dairy to my diet, however, as
> I've been feeling nauseous a lot lately anyway, and have consequently had
> trouble eating much of anything - I think I have just a wee touch of a
> cold. I did my best to drive that out with wasabi. I guess I'll see how
it
> goes.
Don't forget that many of the leafy green veggies have a fair amount of
calcium: http://carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html probably isn't the best site
out there, but it was the first that showed up on a quick search, and it
does list a lot of different options. Fortified orange juice got me through
for a while when I wasn't eating dairy, but I seem to recall that orange
juice aids iron absorption over calcium (they're absorbed by the same
receptors), so don't eat iron-rich foods at the same time. Cereal's usually
good too, especially if you get one you like and just eat it like granola.
Nightfall
Can you tell that my md used to ride me about calcium intake?
E.S.
>
> Was the clove/cinnamon/safflower one of the customized blends, or something
> pre-packaged? I think I smell a shopping expedition coming on...
Yes, it came premixed, although Whole Foods and some smaller health
food/natural remedy shops I've been to have had pure oil. I also have
lavender mint oil, but that's for headaches and massages, not regular
wear.
>
> > I also have this odd chewing gum that makes my breath smell like
> > violet and clove as well as violet breathmints made by the same
> > company.
>
> Where do you get these? I love trying new flavors, and I, too, have never
> tasted violets. ;)
>
> Nightfall
The brand is C. Howard's, and I get them from the candy & magazine
vendors by the Fullerton or Belmont red line el stops in Chicago. A
few gas stations sell them, too.
--E.S.
E.S.
Since becoming first vegetarian and then vegan, I have found that both
iron and calcium aren't as hard to get as some people would have you
believe. Supplemental pills (and almost anything else with a time
release--I don't know why, but my childhood iron supplement would
leave my stomach very upset) tend to make me sick, so they aren't an
option for me unless I want to feel barfy. I consume large amounts of
spinach, broccoli, calcium-fortified OJ, enriched pastas and enriched
soy/rice milks, plus I have a book with absorption charts to get a
better idea of how long I should wait between supplemental foods.
I found at the same time that although my doctors always told me to
drink whol emilk and eat liver (as close to raw as safely possible), I
read that nutrients bound with animal proteins are more difficult to
absorb. These were the same docs who told me I would need time-release
iron supplements for my whole life lest my absoption-hating body
become severely anemic. I have had normal to above-normal iron levels
for over two years now, ever since I decided that I and nobody else
would decide what goes into my body.
Anyhow, my point was that with some light reading you can gain the
knowledge to keep a body that doesn't absorb nutrients very well in
great shape without pills or a high-cholesterol diet of whole milk and
liver, and that the leafy greens plan works very well. If you don't
like spinach, try spinach pasta--it doesn't really taste like spinach,
and the taste is easily covered with sauce if you still don't like it.
There are all sorts of ways to sneak leafy greens into normal meals.
Good luck!
--E.S.
Jennie
> mmm. I used to wear straight vanilla extract (the clear, glycerin kind
> used for decorative icing) as scent. But even the most mild forms
> eventually irritated my skin so i gave up on scent. *sigh* I liked
> smelling like tasty baked goods!
How about incorporating a small amount when you condition your
hair?
Erin Nelson
> How about incorporating a small amount when you condition your
> hair?
hrm, that's a very intriguing idea. Especially since my hair is the only
part of me that's been scented in many years :) The conditioner i have
right now smells faintly of lavendar and sage, but i might be able to find
one that blends better with vanilla.
erin
Imoreh
wearing a natural scent as opposed to a perfume. I may have overlooked
something, but did you try saturating a cotton ball with your
favourite scent and tucking it into your vest or brassiere or what
have you?
(I like violet candy, too, btw. Obtainable via mailorder from Vermont
Country Store. It may also be for sale through their website.
http://www.vermontcountrystore.com )
Moreh
Lucy Bond
Erin Nelson <ni...@obscure.buggeroff.org> writes
That should work, but you should avoid adding neat essential oils to
your hair. I read too much Anais Nin one day, & brushed sandalwood oil
through my long hair. I woke up the next day with narrow scarlet
pinstripes across my face, where I had lain on the hair.
It *is* possible to buy vanilla as an essential oil, but in my
experience it is not as strongly scented as pure vanilla essence.
For those requiring a dilution of clove oil to be used as perfume, I
suggest making a solid perfume. Take a 20ml glass jar & fill (but not
pack it down solid) with grated beeswax. Now top it up to just below the
brim with jojoba, peach kernel or your preferred base oil. Microwave for
a few seconds, watching closely. Remove carefully, & stir with a
toothpick as it cools. Now add your essential oils, being cautious with
quantities. Stir & cover. You now have an easily portable perfume which
is less greasy than using straight oil, won't spill in your bag, & is
good for your skin. Don't add the essential oils before heating, as this
can reduce their perfume.
The Demeter perfumes can be found here:
http://www.fashion-planet.com/shopping/demeter/demeterhome.html
However, they are designed to be a brief pick-me-up, & the perfumes do
not linger long on the skin, so don't expect them to last all day.
Lucy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucy Bond : www.technokitty.com sells Dane cybery tops, dresses & bustiers,
glammy fake fur, Cybertart fun, glittery make-up, rubber spiky goodness & all
things futuristic! *Updated! New goodies now available!*
Joseph Brenner
Jennie <jen...@penelope.triffid.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Joseph Brenner wrote:
> > That's kind of interesting. I've been wondering a bit
> > lately if there are still a bunch of people around who think
> > that their sexual preference matters a real lot.
> Maybe, given where you live, you've been leading a rather
> sheltered life. Which is not an unenviable thing.
Entirely possible. Like I said, I was wondering about it.
"Chasing Amy" to my eye had people acting like the calendar
was set to 1975. But on the other hand "progress" is often
partial, if not illusory, and while it might be a suprise
for me to find today's twenty-somethings acting like no-one
had learned anything in the last three decades, this
wouldn't be a *huge* surprise... [1]
> This certainly is still a big issue to a lot of people in
> most cities where I've spent any time. People tend to
> take more of a live and let live attitude than they did,
> say, ten years ago, but many still set very strict
> standards for themselves, connecting sexual preference
> strongly to identity.
Around these parts, it seems like many of the lesbians I know
have occasional flings with men, and then just go back to
being lesbians. It's also not regarded as tremendously
unusual for someone's preferences to shift over time. If you
find someone obessesed with the issue, the standard advice
is "Get over yourself!"
> > One of the harder things for me to believe in was the idea that this
> > mid-1990s New York hipster lesbian would have some sort of identity
> > crisis at the thought of falling in love with a man.
>
> One would think she would at least have encountered such things,
> if not, previously, directly experienced them.
Exactly.
> I know women who have male partners and still think of
> themselves as lesbian. I guess that makes a certain amount of sense if
> their attraction to men is very rare. Rather more in that position
> identify themselves as bisexual but 'mostly lesbian', which is, again, all
> about communicating life experiences and future probabilities.
In the mid-70s some people started talking about being "ambisexual",
i.e. bisexual but not with evenly balanced attraction between the
sexes. It seems like that term has fallen out of favor (probably
because it seems too fussy to worry about at that level of
detail... "Are you 60-40 or 80-20?").
> It does piss me off when I hear people in the gay scene
> refer to any motos couple as 'straight'. On the last Pride march I
> attended, there were whoops and cheers when a young man and woman
> who had been standing beside one another on the kerb chose to join
> the parade. "Look, that straight couple are joining us" and "He's
> really queer" were among the comments which followed. It seemed to
> me very rude to assume (a) that they were a couple (as if people
> never have opposite sex friends), and (b) that their current
> relationship, if such it was, defined their sexual identities and
> identified their sexual histories.
Okay, I've been living a sheltered life. The SF Pride march
has all sorts of people marching in it, including special
groups like straight family members declaring support for gay
relatives, and so on. It isn't so much a march of gay folks,
as a march of people who don't care if anyone thinks that
they're gay.
[1] In the last Margret Cho movie, she talks about a boy friend
that hit her with the line "Why can't you just come when I'm
fucking you?"
Lucy Bond
<do...@kzsu.stanford.edu> writes
>snip<
>Okay, I've been living a sheltered life. The SF Pride march
>has all sorts of people marching in it, including special
>groups like straight family members declaring support for gay
>relatives, and so on. It isn't so much a march of gay folks,
>as a march of people who don't care if anyone thinks that
>they're gay.
Having marched in the London & Scottish Pride some years ago, but never
participated in the Manchester event (one year they decided to take
'bisexual' out of the name of the festival, & I got the hump & stayed
that way) I found myself in town on the day of the parade.
I was very surprised to see quite a number of people marching or on
floats, masked. And I don't mean as part of a costume. Masked men in
sharp city suits, for instance.
Surely, if you are 'gay & proud' you attend such an event bare-faced.
And one would think if a person wasn't comfortable being 'out' to
everyone, they wouldn't be in an organised part of the parade, or on a
float? I just don't get it. If you don't want to identify yourself
behind a particular banner (the groups marching together) un-masked,
then surely you can join the cheery rabble at the back...?
Lucy (baffled)
Jennie
> Don't forget that many of the leafy green veggies have a fair amount of
> calcium: http://carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html probably isn't the best site
> out there, but it was the first that showed up on a quick search, and it
> does list a lot of different options.
I've been advised that most leafy green vegetables (which I eat
lots of) contain a sufficient amount of oxalic acid to block the
absorption of most of the calcium they contain. Apparenly kale and Chinese
cabbage flower are exceptions.
> Cereal's usually good too, especially if you get one you like and just
> eat it like granola.
I used to like snacking on cereal the way other people eat
crisps, but lately ours have been going the way of US ones - they all
taste far too sugary now, and are prone to put me on a sugar high (during
which I'm distracted and can't work) following which there is a nasty low
(during which I'm sleepy and can't work). There are some exceptions, but
they're too expensive for me to afford regularly. I do eat lots of nuts,
which I'm told are similarly good as a calcium source, but I'm not
supposed to overindulge there for fear of spiking my testosterone up too
high again.
It's all terribly complicated; but yesterday I had salmon and
stilton pasta, which ought to do something useful.
Jennie
> Since becoming first vegetarian and then vegan, I have found that both
> iron and calcium aren't as hard to get as some people would have you believe.
I have been taking advice from vegan friends on my current
situation. :) Apparently one of my local shops sells miniature soya yoghurt
pots which contain most of the calcium needed in anyone's daily diet.
> These were the same docs who told me I would need time-release
> iron supplements for my whole life lest my absoption-hating body
> become severely anemic.
If you have an iron absorption problem, do you know if you're
getting sufficient B12? Some people's bodies don't produce enough
naturally, and need to have it supplemented (it's easy to do this through
diet, with cereals and mushrooms). I ate iron-rich foods for years and
still struggled with anaemia until I decided to try B12, and then I was
better within days.
Jennie
news.comcast.giganews.com>, --nightshade-- wrote:
> weather, the scenery, and the clothing of autumn, i also find it rather
> sad. if it's due to lack of light, it has a funny way of manifesting
> itself, as it often subsides as midwinter approaches. if it's due to a
> decrease in light (the rate of change, rather than the change itself),
> then that's also odd, as it waits until well after the daylight starts to
> wane.
Perhaps your body has to learn, each time, to scavenge more
vitamin D from other sources, and your reserves have to run down first
before you feel the effects of the lack of it. You might try eating lots
of extra vitamin D rich foods before the depression gets a grip.
Jennie
> My personal opinion is that virtually everybody is bi-curious, bisexual, or
> whatever you want to call it (in differing amounts), whether they admit it
> or are aware of it. If someone were absolutely 100% straight, I don’t think
> they would be able to conceptualize oo judge the attractiveness of a MOTSS.
I suppose this is semantic. I'm not sexually attracted to
horses, but I can appreciate the difference between a beautiful horse and
an ugly one; but maybe some people would define that appreciation as
being, in a degree, sexual. Can't we conceptualize attractiveness in
aesthetic as well as lustful ways?
I used to have a friend who was a body-builder. Lots of people
swooned over him, and he had a reputation for handsomeness. I admired the
way he looked, after a fashion, rather as I might have admired a classic
car or a beautifully carved piece of furniture - there was an elegance
about his appearance, a sleekness of design. Occasionally, when we were
drunk, we'd flirt, and I did consider having sex with him - I asked
myself, why not? because he was beautiful - yet I felt no sexual desire
for him whatsoever. My body didn't respond. I'm just not wired to be
attracted to masculine men, and aesthetic appreciation did nothing to
override that.
> This isn’t to say that if social restrictions were lifted everyone would
> suddenly be interested in having sex with both sides of the fence, just
> that, like I said, sexuality falls along a continuum, and while people may
> be weighted to one end or the other, I suspect very, very few define either
> endpoint.
I'm thinking about the straight men I've known well. I can think
of four who stated a specific interest in my intersexual characteristics; one
who has a stronger aesthetic appreciation of masculine beauty than I do;
four or five who have never shown nor expressed any interest in men
whatsoever; and two who have never shown nor expressed any interest in
_anyone_ whatsoever, though they don't consider themselves asexual.
I don't know many straight women. The first one who comes to
mind is Christian, and as a religious thing she would choose not to
consider lesbianism, and she doesn't express herself much sexually in any
context. Another is a gleeful tart, but just doesn't seem to get that
physical response thing going with women.
Jennie
> Around these parts, it seems like many of the lesbians I know
> have occasional flings with men, and then just go back to
> being lesbians.
That seems perfectly sensible. I'm uncomfortable with models
which fail to take into account people being attracted to people - there
are all sorts of things which factor into that, besides routine sexual
preference.
> It's also not regarded as tremendously
> unusual for someone's preferences to shift over time.
I encountered lots of people with this approach when I was
growing up, though they were, at that time, saying something revolutionary
so far as most of the scene was concerned. In that context, I'm surprised
by how constant my own sexual preferences have remained.
> In the mid-70s some people started talking about being "ambisexual",
> i.e. bisexual but not with evenly balanced attraction between the
> sexes. It seems like that term has fallen out of favor
These terms continually come and go. Remember when everybody was
attracted to pans? When I look at it morphologically, I think 'bisexual'
is a rather silly term for me to be using as an intersexed person who is
often attracted to other intersexed people; but in the wider semantic
context, it's the practical choice of term, because pretty much everybody
understands it, and the masses don't worry about morphology.
> Okay, I've been living a sheltered life. The SF Pride march
> has all sorts of people marching in it, including special
> groups like straight family members declaring support for gay
> relatives, and so on. It isn't so much a march of gay folks,
> as a march of people who don't care if anyone thinks that
> they're gay.
I've met quite a few straight people on the marches here -
people who wish to assist the campaign for gay equality; but I think there
is another, scene-centered section of the march which remains in utter
ignorance of their presence. It's impressive how such an 'open' group of
people, united by their political concerns, can be so deeply divided by
their social practices.
Jennie
> Having marched in the London & Scottish Pride some years ago, but never
> participated in the Manchester event (one year they decided to take
> 'bisexual' out of the name of the festival, & I got the hump & stayed
> that way) I found myself in town on the day of the parade.
What was the reason for their decision? I can see the argument
that longer lists of categories become awkward, but in that case I would
personally prefer to go back to one single word like 'gay' or 'queer'
which most people could identify with. I am aware that, whatever word one
chooses, somebody will object, but it seems that having more than one word
increases the sense that the unnamed are not wanted.
> I was very surprised to see quite a number of people marching or on
> floats, masked. And I don't mean as part of a costume. Masked men in
> sharp city suits, for instance.
I can't think of one instance of that that I've seen up here,
except for masks which were part of costumes.
> Surely, if you are 'gay & proud' you attend such an event bare-faced.
There are occasional people who are proud of being gay (or, to
put it more succinctly, of having summoned up the courage to admit to it
to themselves and others) who are, nevertheless, in considerable potential
danger from just one or two people (usually family members or work
colleagues) who might spot them on news footage etc. It can be good for
these people to go along and enjoy a sense of support, and they may wish
to make their presence felt for political reasons, but they daren't be
visible. I've a Muslim friend who was in this position. She wanted to be
visible there as a Muslim, but hid her face throughout because she feared
violence if her parents should recognise her.
Lucy Bond
<jen...@penelope.triffid.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <1B9hFpBHcXb$Mw...@newaeonbooks.demon.co.uk>, Lucy Bond wrote:
>> Having marched in the London & Scottish Pride some years ago, but never
>> participated in the Manchester event (one year they decided to take
>> 'bisexual' out of the name of the festival, & I got the hump & stayed
>> that way) I found myself in town on the day of the parade.
>
> What was the reason for their decision? I can see the argument
>that longer lists of categories become awkward, but in that case I would
>personally prefer to go back to one single word like 'gay' or 'queer'
>which most people could identify with. I am aware that, whatever word one
>chooses, somebody will object, but it seems that having more than one word
>increases the sense that the unnamed are not wanted.
I don't know the reason for their decision. I just know that previously,
the title included 'bisexual' but then they removed it. If they had
never used the word, I wouldn't have objected, but to use it, then take
it out seemed... rude...
>> I was very surprised to see quite a number of people marching or on
>> floats, masked. And I don't mean as part of a costume. Masked men in
>> sharp city suits, for instance.
>
> I can't think of one instance of that that I've seen up here,
>except for masks which were part of costumes.
I had never seen it before myself.
>> Surely, if you are 'gay & proud' you attend such an event bare-faced.
>
> There are occasional people who are proud of being gay (or, to
>put it more succinctly, of having summoned up the courage to admit to it
>to themselves and others) who are, nevertheless, in considerable potential
>danger from just one or two people (usually family members or work
>colleagues) who might spot them on news footage etc. It can be good for
>these people to go along and enjoy a sense of support, and they may wish
>to make their presence felt for political reasons, but they daren't be
>visible. I've a Muslim friend who was in this position. She wanted to be
>visible there as a Muslim, but hid her face throughout because she feared
>violence if her parents should recognise her.
I can understand to an extent... but it still seems strange to want to
participate in something as 'exhibitionist' as being on a float, or in a
group (such as the bears) but masked...
Lucy