random notes on german vs american goth scene
lorelei
the only US expat resident here (?). It's always intriguing to me to hear about
cultural variances in the goth scene, but I dunno if it interests anyone else.
If not, sorry.
(disclaimer--I have only been here for 3 months and make no claims at being an
expert on the German scene. Also, I haven't really been out of Berlin, so can't
speak much for the rest of Germany (though I can attest that there are lively
scenes in nearly every large city here))
Notes...
-It's almost always referred to as the "black scene" rather than the goth(ic)
scene. A bit confusing for me at first...
-Just how popular is the black scene in Germany? Well, in a country with less
than 1/3 the population of the States, there are no less than 4 major monthly
magazines devoted to gothic music & lifestyle: Orkus, Zillo, Gothic and Sonic
Seducer. These are not obscure, xeroxed "zines" (although there are plenty of
these as well)--all are available from regular newsagents, found in any large
train station & on main streets. And you probably know about some of the huge
summer festivals here: Wave-Gotik Treffen in Leipzig, Zillo Festival, M'era
Luna...I missed them all this year. Next year will be different.
-Berlin has a population not much larger than Boston's, yet on weekend nights
one can often select from 5 or 6 different events. There is usually something on
every night of the week. Besides the many regular clubs, one-off parties are
very common here, not just in the goth scene. East Berliners are very fond of
opening up a squatted-out cellar or building into an illegal bar or club
whenever the mood strikes.
-German gothic music varies so much in style and quality, it's impossible for me
to make many generalities. EBM & "synthie-pop" are hugely popular. Depeche Mode
are worshipped as gods (a boy I met last weekend told me of a friend he had who
kept in his room a big rock with "DEPECHE MODE" carved into it). On the other
hand, black/gothic/doom metal is also huge, often with the same people. I don't
understand this bit of the culture, although there are a few such bands that
throw in bagpipes or other traditional instruments which makes it mildly more
interesting.
-The German bands I like best at present usually are described as "romantic" or
neo-folk. Silke Bischoff, Engelsstaub, Hekate, Orplid, Forseti, Darkwood, Dies
Natalis...I've yet to find a club night in Berlin that plays very much of this
stuff, although the monthly clubdate flyer "L'Etoile Noire" often lists nights
that state they will play neo-folk. A friend of mine tells me that "they write
it but it doesn't mean they play it"...
-I have been unimpressed with the local indie record shops, but you can go into
any large department store here and find CDs from most popular bands (Sopor
Aeturnus, Lacrimosa, Wolfsheim, Project Pitchfork, Wumpscut, Coil, etc etc etc,
plus the ever-popular German "samplers"). You can also buy underwear, condoms,
pudding, and a crate of beer at the same time. (And have a very interesting
night afterward, I'm sure...)
-Grufties can't dance. Or, rather, they all dance like Lurch, or zombies, or
C-3PO, or some combination of the above. Germans understand rhythm like nobody
else, but they've got no *groove*! (Though I note they dance a fair bit better
in the fetish/techno clubs, no doubt due to copious consumption of Ecstasy)
-Although every German goth I know is someone I met through Berlin's sex/fetish
clubs, I wouldn't say there's any huge amount of crossover between the two
scenes--there aren't many listings for "gothic fetish" nights, in other words.
That said, many people will frequently go to goth clubs and then on to the
KitKat Club (huge & infamous Berlin sex club) early in the morning.
-Clubs here don't usually get started until 1AM, and go until late into the
morning. The KitKat is usually open until 3PM or so. When I tell people here
that Boston clubs *close* at 1AM, they think I'm joking!
-Pot is more or less legal to smoke in Berlin. Alcohol is available 24 hours and
can be consumed wherever you like. (Lots of kids sit outside the clubs and drink
until 4AM or so, when they can get in free). You are considered an esoteric
weirdo in Berlin if you don't smoke cigarettes.
-Many people in the Berlin scene come from the former GDR (East Germany), and as
such, there is a visible faction that is rather right-wing, but I couldn't make
any kind of guess to what extent. It's difficult for me to speak with many
Easterners as my German is still quite rudimentary and most of them never
studied English. But I tend to like the ones I do meet & they certainly aren't
all fascists.
I still haven't figured out just what it is that makes "goth" culture so much
more pronounced here than in most other places. Germans as a rule seem to have
very intense natures, and no small amount of Weltschmerz. But this isn't enough
to form a theory. Any other thoughts?
lorelei
~~~~
"I'm going to leave work and go to the park
to suckle some sunshine! Jippi!"--eirik
fuzzy pink satan
fpevooyrq onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>I still haven't figured out just what it is that makes "goth" culture so much
>more pronounced here than in most other places. Germans as a rule seem to have
>very intense natures, and no small amount of Weltschmerz. But this isn't enough
>to form a theory. Any other thoughts?
i am positively -drowning- in envy. that is all for now.
carrie
---> mutilation @ fuzzy pink satan . com
---> scarred & smiling dying slow i'll scream to no-one left at all
---> i told you so i told you so i told you so..
---> new model army.
Darren
>
> (disclaimer--I have only been here for 3 months and make no claims at
being an
> expert on the German scene. Also, I haven't really been out of Berlin, so
can't
> speak much for the rest of Germany (though I can attest that there are
lively
> scenes in nearly every large city here))
>
Alas, had you only posted this four weeks ago... Oh, well. I have just
returned to the states from Europe. I was in Berlin from Sept. 26th through
Oct. 5th. I had a hard time finding anything, but my German is not very
good. Eventually, I managed to come across K-17, but not until two days
before I left. The Tuesday night at K-17 before 3 October was great,
though... really good music, cheap (compared to what I am used to) drinks,
lots of pretty German goth girls and boys...
Did not like the Kit Kat club, though... the night I was there it was a
rave for 500 people with a few girls wearing no tops and a creepy guy
jerking off in one corner... not really what I expected from 'Berlin's most
infamous sex club'... ;) and I get tired of rave music _real_ quick...
I loved Berlin, though, and will eventually go back, when time and money
allows.
Darren
Canticle
"lorelei" <lemon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ql6n...@drn.newsguy.com...
> I still haven't figured out just what it is that makes "goth" culture so
much
> more pronounced here than in most other places. Germans as a rule seem to
have
> very intense natures, and no small amount of Weltschmerz. But this isn't
enough
> to form a theory. Any other thoughts?
Well, it is a nation that was pretty much destroyed at the tail end of World
War II, and not a single, solitary family wasn't deeply impacted by it.
Afterwards, East Germany got to live the good life under one of the most Big
Brotheresque regimes to ever grace the face of the earth. It tends to
produce, even in later generations, a far different outlook than what North
Americans are used to. There is no shortage of families in Winnipeg who are
from Germany (the former East Germany among them), and they definitely have
a more realistic outlook on the world than North Americans appear to have.
Jeff-boy, Eater of Worlds
"No flesh shall be spared"
Jodi
>I've yet to find a club night in Berlin that plays very much of this
>stuff, although the monthly clubdate flyer "L'Etoile Noire" often lists nights
>that state they will play neo-folk. A friend of mine tells me that "they write
>it but it doesn't mean they play it"...
Oh, so that's a universal phenomenon then...
Aside from that, I join fuzzy pink satan in the turning positively green
with envy stakes.
Jodi
I am angry I am ill and I'm as ugly as sin
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking
- Magazine, "A Song from Under the Floorboards"
lorelei
>Alas, had you only posted this four weeks ago... Oh, well. I have just
>returned to the states from Europe. I was in Berlin from Sept. 26th through
>Oct. 5th. I had a hard time finding anything, but my German is not very
>good.
neither is mine, but even the big events guides (Zitty, Tip, 030) list the major
goth nights. It's too bad...there's so much to see here.
>Eventually, I managed to come across K-17, but not until two days
>before I left. The Tuesday night at K-17 before 3 October was great,
>though... really good music, cheap (compared to what I am used to) drinks,
>lots of pretty German goth girls and boys...
Alcohol is definitely cheap here, as are many other things. K17 is a good place,
and Duncker & Kato are nice as well.
>Did not like the Kit Kat club, though... the night I was there it was a
>rave for 500 people with a few girls wearing no tops and a creepy guy
>jerking off in one corner... not really what I expected from 'Berlin's most
>infamous sex club'... ;) and I get tired of rave music _real_ quick...
Oh, you went on Saturday night then. If that "creepy guy" is the one I think you
mean (by the toilets, with the flashlight?), he's a famous German porn star
employed by the club. He's there all the time and never takes a break!
On the other hand, on any given weekend night there's at least a hundred creepy
guys masturbating somewhere in the KitKat, but That Guy is usually the one
people remember. ;)
Sat. nights attract a lot of people who just are there to gawk and snicker
and/or dance(!). As such, there are inevitably a lot of unpleasant folks, but I
actually like this because it makes the truly interesting people stand out so
much more. It's also a lot more fun when you get to know some of the regulars
(and there are definitely a number of goths among them). Friday nights are far
less packed & generally more for the real hardcore perv types. I'm told they
occasionally they throw special gothic parties as well, but I'm still waiting...
>I loved Berlin, though, and will eventually go back, when time and money
>allows.
Cool. Let me know when you pass through...
lorelei
(snip)
>i am positively -drowning- in envy. that is all for now.
Well, it's a fantastic place, but hardly perfect. It's nigh impossible to buy a
cup of coffee larger than a thimble, the shops all close at 8PM, and Marilyn
M*nson is--well, I won't say "highly respected," but certainly he's far more
appreciated here (by people with otherwise good taste, even) than in his
homeland. And his gothickness is not at all held in question. Though it is
refreshing, I admit, to be spared from that stale & tedious debate.
You just eventually learn to accept some of the strange quirks of German taste.
Nena. Trio. Right Said Fred. David Hasselhoff.
lorelei (had expected Berlin to be populated only by beautiful Blixaesque
cadaverous avant-garde types, but reality had to hit sometime)
fuzzy pink satan
fpevooyrq onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>Well, it's a fantastic place, but hardly perfect. It's nigh impossible to buy a
>cup of coffee larger than a thimble,
..what the hell is -that- all about? do they not drink coffee?
>the shops all close at 8PM,
eh, everything here closes at 9, wouldn't be so very different.
>and Marilyn
>M*nson is--well, I won't say "highly respected," but certainly he's far more
>appreciated here (by people with otherwise good taste, even) than in his
>homeland.
well, while i only own the portrait cassette (which i doubt even works
anymore), i must say that i don't mind him. ;)
>You just eventually learn to accept some of the strange quirks of German taste.
>Nena. Trio. Right Said Fred. David Hasselhoff.
i'll tolerate the hass, but i'll never accept him!
>lorelei (had expected Berlin to be populated only by beautiful Blixaesque
>cadaverous avant-garde types, but reality had to hit sometime)
an ex-orker of mine once proclaimed loudly that german women are ugly.
i took quite a bit of offense as i am quite a bit german, as well as
quite a bit woman. so is it true? ;)
carrie, wanting a deiter of her very own.
---> mutilation @ fuzzy pink satan . com
---> *
---> in power we trust.
---> fla.
Mazurian1
larger than Boston. Is it true about Berlin though, that it's very drab
looking?
Darren
I did not find it drab looking at all, though I have a much wider range of
architectural appreciation than, apparently, many folks. I rather like the
Bauhaus school of design and what is, at least in America, known as the
International style. I rather enjoyed most of the architecture, though I
did notice the color pallet was a bit off from what one would expect in
America... Lots of pale yellows and such...
I spent much of my time in the former East, specifically around
Karl-Marx-Allee, which was pretty much flattened in 1945 and rebuilt by the
GDR in the 50's as a 'testament to the workers paradise'. I have heard that
ten years ago it was rather run down, and that the whole city was covered
with a layer of grime due to nearby East German factories with little or no
pollution controls. But after ten years of renovations and improvements, I
was barely able to tell where the former line between East and West would
have been.
I have some pictures up, don't know if it will really give any impression of
what it was like, though...
Darren
http://www.bluebuddhalounge.com
Jennie
<mutil...@fuzzypinksatan.com> wrote:
>an ex-orker of mine once proclaimed loudly that german women are ugly.
>i took quite a bit of offense as i am quite a bit german, as well as
>quite a bit woman. so is it true? ;)
Not in my experience. I've known some extremely attractive
German women. What was your ex-orker's experience of them?
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
"When I last saw my baby she was turning blue
"And I knew that pretty soon her sweet life was through."
Scarab
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:08:49 GMT, fuzzy pink satan
> <mutil...@fuzzypinksatan.com> wrote:
> >an ex-orker of mine once proclaimed loudly that german women are ugly.
> >i took quite a bit of offense as i am quite a bit german, as well as
> >quite a bit woman. so is it true? ;)
>
> Not in my experience. I've known some extremely attractive
> German women. What was your ex-orker's experience of them?
>
> Jennie
When I was in the Army and in Korea (the people there are
beautiful/gorgeous/stunning appearance-wise but they stink terribly),
I heard that German women do not shave their legs ad that they smell
bad according to American standards. The topic of Germany came up
because some soldiers in my unit wanted to be transferred straight
from Korea to Germany, so the experienced ones were telling everyone
about how German women are. Anyway, I heard (and I could be
misinformed) that Germans do not practice hygeine the way Americans do
(eg- use deodorant) and that their women don't shave.
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> jen...@triffid.demon.co.uk (Jennie) wrote in message news:<slrn9t1j7p...@triffid.demon.co.uk>...
> > On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:08:49 GMT, fuzzy pink satan
> > <mutil...@fuzzypinksatan.com> wrote:
> > >an ex-orker of mine once proclaimed loudly that german women are ugly.
> > >i took quite a bit of offense as i am quite a bit german, as well as
> > >quite a bit woman. so is it true? ;)
> >
> > Not in my experience. I've known some extremely attractive
> > German women. What was your ex-orker's experience of them?
> >
> > Jennie
>
> When I was in the Army and in Korea (the people there are
> beautiful/gorgeous/stunning appearance-wise but they stink terribly),
Troll From Hell.
Eat shit and die, fuckwad.
As for those of us of German extraction... we might not all of us be all
that pretty. But the same can be said of anyone else, and we certainly
produce our fair share of beauties. There's so much I want to say to you,
but with your remarks [snipped] judging people on the artificial standard of
whether or not people slather themselves with harmful commercial odorant
chemicals, I don't trust myself to even attempt to remain coherent.
Maybe I don't have the best nose, but to me German-American women fresh from
the shower smell like well-tended farmlands: clean, fertile, 100-percent
full of life and up to the task of providing anything you need to live if
only you will treat them right.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow. <-----> http://earthops.net/klaatu/
skerry.
On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:03:56 -0400, Tiny Human Ferret <kla...@clark.net>
fpevooyrq onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>> > On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:08:49 GMT, fuzzy pink satan
>> > <mutil...@fuzzypinksatan.com> wrote:
>> > >an ex-orker of mine once proclaimed loudly that german women are ugly.
>> > >i took quite a bit of offense as i am quite a bit german, as well as
>> > >quite a bit woman. so is it true? ;)
>> >
>> > Not in my experience. I've known some extremely attractive
>> > German women. What was your ex-orker's experience of them?
i don't know, i didn't care to ask. the problem with working in a
"mainstream" tattoo shop in milwaukee is that most people you will
encounter are ignorant rednecks.
carrie (quite glad she isn't there anymore.)
skerry.
fpevooyrq onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>piggie-backing, i didn't receive this post!
>
>On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:03:56 -0400, Tiny Human Ferret <kla...@clark.net>
>fpevooyrq onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
bleh. & i goofed it up, too. jennie wrote what i am replying
to, not tiny human ferret. bad satan, no donut. :<
carrie
Jennie
>When I was in the Army and in Korea (the people there are
>beautiful/gorgeous/stunning appearance-wise but they stink terribly),
Heh. Most people from that part of the world think Westerners
stink terribly, and call us 'sour milk', because they can detect the smell
of the milk we drink in our sweat (as we might detect, say, garlic); it's
a smell which they would normally find among their own people only on
babies.
>I heard that German women do not shave their legs ad that they smell
>bad according to American standards.
Shaving legs (and armpits, for that matter) is less common in
Europe, though certainly not unheard of. It's just a different standard of
beauty. Personally, when I see an attractive woman, the texture of her
legs is not the first thing I think about. ;) As for smell, again that's
probably just a different cultural standard. To my European nose, most
Americans I meet (though by no means all) use far too much perfume or
scented deoderant, which gives them a sickly, artificial smell. I prefer
people who just smell like people, and I have nothing against the smell of
sweat provided it's not stale.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
"It was for this that Rubin had been arrested. People in the unit who
disliked him had accused him of speaking out, after the offensive of
January 1945, against the slogan 'Blood for blood and death for death'."
Jennie
>bleh. & i goofed it up, too. jennie wrote what i am replying
>to, not tiny human ferret. bad satan, no donut. :<
Poor satan. These things happen. You can have a doughnut anyway.
The Germans make very good doughnuts.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
Ecthelion
<snip>
> an ex-orker of mine once proclaimed loudly that german women are ugly.
> i took quite a bit of offense as i am quite a bit german, as well as
> quite a bit woman. so is it true? ;)
From my (rather)limited experiance I would have to strongly disagree.
I have personally met a number of very lovely German women.
Oh gawd, and the German language/accent! *swoon*
I really must resume learning the language some day.
John_
(also quite a bit German and a little biased in this matter)
lorelei
says...
>
>Last I saw Berlin almost had the population of LA, over 3 million people, thus
>larger than Boston. Is it true about Berlin though, that it's very drab
>looking?
Including suburbs I think Boston & Berlin both fall somewhere around 4 million
(give or take a few hundred thousand). The metro LA area is something like 7 or
8 million.
Drab-looking? Well...there's tons of really beautiful ultramodern steel & glass
buildings (and more on the way...much of the city is still a giant construction
zone). There are also some really beautiful older sections that look more
trad-"European". Lots & lots of cobblestone streets, gaslights, gorgeous
parks...and yes, there are a lot of giant cement-block highrises that could be
described as ugly, but I like all the contrasts.
Oh, and every flat surface in town is covered with graffiti...
lorelei
>As for those of us of German extraction... we might not all of us be all
>that pretty. But the same can be said of anyone else, and we certainly
>produce our fair share of beauties.
There's quite a lot of variance in German appearances (though I do know an
alarming number of men who resemble Klaus Kinski...). Plenty of very, very
good-looking people here.
And not only do (most) women shave their legs, but everywhere else. As do many
men, much to my delight.
Germans seem to be extraordinarily fond of going nekkid at any available
opportunity and as such, keep quite high standards of hygeine. Generally
speaking, of course.
lorelei
IHCOYC XPICTOC
>snip< . . . Germans do not practice hygeine the way Americans do
> (eg- use deodorant) and that their women don't shave.
If you bathe semi-regularly, deodorant is probably not urgently needed, at
least in temperate weather. And women who don't shave have always been a
minor fetish for me. Especially since -Easter- came out in '78.
--
IHCOYC XPICTOC D.G. IMP. LAURASIAE ET GONDWANALANDIAE
http://members.iglou.com/gustavus
True Religion, and undefiled, is this, To make restitution
of the Earth which hath been taken and held from the
Common people, by the power of Conquests formerly,
and so set the oppressed free.
--- Gerrard Winstanley
Darren
>
> From my (rather)limited experiance I would have to strongly disagree.
> I have personally met a number of very lovely German women.
> Oh gawd, and the German language/accent! *swoon*
> I really must resume learning the language some day.
>
Well, based upon my completely non-scientific 'riding the subway' poll,
Berlin compares quite favorably with London, Chicago, New York, etc. Though
I did not keep count, there were no small number of "Oh, my God" 's.
And I completely agree about the accent thing... sigh...
Though as to shaving habits, I, sadly, never had an opportunity to
investigate.
Darren
Scarab
> On 20 Oct 2001 19:26:30 -0700, Scarab <sacr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >When I was in the Army and in Korea (the people there are
> >beautiful/gorgeous/stunning appearance-wise but they stink terribly),
>
> Heh. Most people from that part of the world think Westerners
> stink terribly, and call us 'sour milk', because they can detect the smell
> of the milk we drink in our sweat (as we might detect, say, garlic); it's
> a smell which they would normally find among their own people only on
> babies.
>
We used to say that Koreans smelled like Kimchi (a korean specialty
side dish that has a very strong odor). A cute Korean guy I knew
smelled like that. I suspect the smell was because of his diet; he ate
korean food all the time. Whenever I was in his room I smelled the
odor very strongly. It permeated the entire place, from clothes to
bedsheets to books. It all probably came from his sweat and his breath
had a peculiar smell to it also. It smelled bad, but since liked him,
I didn't mind it much at all.
I come in contact with Koreans here in the States frequently, yet I
have never smelled any that had the odor I rememer from Korea. I know
the smell isn't just my imagination because other American guys in
Korea smelled it too. Also, when I was in High school a Japanese
friend of mine named Yoshi told me that this other guy named Michael
smelled like "fish eggs". Well, the other guy was Korean (and very
cute too! What is it with korean guys? *L*). In hindsight I see that
Yoshi said Michael smelled not simply out of prejudice (for some
reason some japanese people hate koreans and vice versa) but because
apparently Koreans are known for their peculiar odor *shrugs*
I haven't been to Germany though, so I have yet to see how their body
chemistry is.
> >I heard that German women do not shave their legs ad that they smell
> >bad according to American standards.
>
> Shaving legs (and armpits, for that matter) is less common in
> Europe, though certainly not unheard of. It's just a different standard of
> beauty. Personally, when I see an attractive woman, the texture of her
> legs is not the first thing I think about. ;) As for smell, again that's
> probably just a different cultural standard. To my European nose, most
> Americans I meet (though by no means all) use far too much perfume or
> scented deoderant, which gives them a sickly, artificial smell. I prefer
> people who just smell like people, and I have nothing against the smell of
> sweat provided it's not stale.
That's funny. I *like* the smell of stale sweat, at least at a gym.
The kickboxing class I went to in Oklahoma reeked of sweat. The
communal gloves were always damp and sweaty smelling. Far from being
revulsed, I actually liked the odor. Mabe it was because of pheromones
or something. And no I'm not a perv! There's other people who like the
smell of sweat too (as long as it's not emanating from someone you
can't stand. That woud definitely be repulsive!).
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 04:57:13 GMT, skerry. <mutil...@fuzzypinksatan.com> wrote:
> >bleh. & i goofed it up, too. jennie wrote what i am replying
> >to, not tiny human ferret. bad satan, no donut. :<
>
> Poor satan. These things happen. You can have a doughnut anyway.
> The Germans make very good doughnuts.
And wash it down with some nice Oktoberfest beer.
>
> Jennie
David Gerard
Jennie <jen...@triffid.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: I prefer
:people who just smell like people, and I have nothing against the smell of
:sweat provided it's not stale.
Fresh sweat (if it isn't by the bucket) is oh my goodness nice.
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ http://www.rocknerd.org/
"One of my remaining ambitions is to receive a blowjob while remotely
configuring someone's router." (Lionel Lauer)
Erika V.
> -It's almost always referred to as the "black scene" rather than the goth(ic)
> scene. A bit confusing for me at first...
A sign outside one of the venues at Leipzig last year (paraphrased and
translated from drunken memory):
NO aeresol cans
NO drugs
NO animals of any kind
etc.
etc.
Yes, we know, this means (then in English) NO FUN FOR YOU BLACKY!
. . .
I've posted this theory of mine to other lists, but I don't think I've
approached it here. Here is the simple equation version:
Kraftwerk, FM Einheit, DaF, Klaus Nomi, and general late 70s German
neo-cabaret scene (electric cabaret) + Nick Cave, David Bowie, Iggy
Pop, and Blixa Bargeld = 'Goth'
'Goth' + Punk = whatever we feel we want to call or not call ourselves
today. Why do you think they called the band Bauhaus? ;) Goths are
Germans, na?
In all honesty, I went 'goth' as a pre-teen because I was a German
American trying to form a cultural identity. I had always felt
separate from my peers (not unsusual among this group), and this
started to manifest itself as punkiness in the early 80s. But I spent
alot of time in Germany, and we often had exchange students living
with us. That is where I got the feel for the neo-cabaret style. At
the time I thought of it as punk in a silent film (i.e. Fritz Lang,
though I wasn't learned enough to know that at the time), and as
definitely a German thing.
> -The German bands I like best at present usually are described as "romantic" or
> neo-folk. Silke Bischoff, Engelsstaub, Hekate, Orplid, Forseti, Darkwood, Dies
> Natalis...I've yet to find a club night in Berlin that plays very much of this
> stuff, although the monthly clubdate flyer "L'Etoile Noire" often lists nights
> that state they will play neo-folk. A friend of mine tells me that "they write
> it but it doesn't mean they play it"...
Anyone who hasn't had a listen to Goethe's Erben or Stendal Blast
should do so. Now. I can also make a plug for German New Wave here.
There are many many many Neue Deutsche Welle bands that never got
released outside of Germany. Some hardcore Einsturzende Neubauten fans
may know of Palais Schaumburg (which, incidentally, babelfish will
translate for you as 'Palace Foam Castle', haha!), Abwaerts, and
Malaria. If you are a Kraftwerk head, give Grauzone or Der Plan a
listen. Speaking of Der Plan, DaF freaks? - go for Fehlfarben and
Mittagspause too. This could be a whole other thread. I'll stop now.
Deutschrockgirl.org will be up eventually. I promise.
> -Although every German goth I know is someone I met through Berlin's sex/fetish
> clubs, I wouldn't say there's any huge amount of crossover between the two
> scenes--there aren't many listings for "gothic fetish" nights, in other words.
> That said, many people will frequently go to goth clubs and then on to the
> KitKat Club (huge & infamous Berlin sex club) early in the morning.
I don't know where you're from originally, but I found the massive
crossover between the scenes very odd and more than slightly
disturbing when I moved to Toronto. It wasn't like that in NY, London,
SF - maybe a little in LA. My sex life and my cultural identity are
separate things. They do mingle, but when I'm getting down to Nick
Cave in a club I am SO not interested in whips and chains.
> -Clubs here don't usually get started until 1AM, and go until late into the
> morning. The KitKat is usually open until 3PM or so. When I tell people here
> that Boston clubs *close* at 1AM, they think I'm joking!
A quote from a friend: "You cannot drink in the streets in America?!?
I am NEVER going to America!"
> It's difficult for me to speak with many
> Easterners as my German is still quite rudimentary and most of them never
> studied English.
Rest assured, the Sachsen dialect, for example, is lost on most native
Germans also. I can't make out much of it myself. I'm not a native
speaker, but I'm fairly fluent. And drunken Sachsen? Forget it! I once
had a conversation with my brain that went something like this:
"Ooooo, cute German boy talking to me in club . . . understanding,
understanding, ooo, I'm getting good at this dialect" Then . . .
"Ummmmmmmm, are you still speaking German?" Cute boy: "Ach scheisse!
Mein Dialekt." My brain: "Fuck."
> I still haven't figured out just what it is that makes "goth" culture so much
> more pronounced here than in most other places. Germans as a rule seem to have
> very intense natures, and no small amount of Weltschmerz. But this isn't enough
> to form a theory. Any other thoughts?
Well I gave you my theory. My feeling is that there there was a
cabaret revival in Berlin in the 70s. Punk got a hold of it, and
voila. In fact, there were people in artistic circles as early as the
mid-18th century who called themselves goths and were,
philosophically, not much different from us. At that time it was
retro-medievalism, the 19th century added romanticism to
retro-medievalism, the 30s added decadence to retro-romantic
medievalism, and the 70's added electronic music to decadent
retro-romantic medievalism. Why does this happen mainly in Germany and
the UK? In the face of the overwhelming worship of Mediterranean
tastes and culture as the basis of Western society, both countries
feel the need to embrace a separate, equally powerful northern
'gothic' identity. Nothing new under the sun, folkies!
There is your history lesson for today.
:)
Lisiblac
Erika V.
Lisi...@neverwhen.net
- who was planning on moving to Germany after her Ph.D. when an angry
Canadian mob attacked her and made her feel too at home to leave.
skerry.
onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>A quote from a friend: "You cannot drink in the streets in America?!?
>I am NEVER going to America!"
i guess you aren't allowed to.
we always did it anyway. ;)
carrie, who just did so last night.
---> skerry [oot] ossuary [dawt] net
Tiny Human Ferret
>
<CHOMP>
> A quote from a friend: "You cannot drink in the streets in America?!?
> I am NEVER going to America!"
Heh heh. Tell them, "nope, but you can shoot at things instead! It's almost
as much fun and you're less likely to be run over by a bus."
Seriously, the whole Puritanism thing has gone waaaay too far.
<snips>
>
> Lisiblac
> Erika V.
> Lisi...@neverwhen.net
> - who was planning on moving to Germany after her Ph.D. when an angry
> Canadian mob attacked her and made her feel too at home to leave.
--
Father Holy
news:rocjttk4ofrv346sq...@4ax.com...
> On 26 Oct 2001 10:25:00 -0700, Lisi...@neverwhen.net (Erika V.) fpevooyrq
> onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>
> >A quote from a friend: "You cannot drink in the streets in America?!?
> >I am NEVER going to America!"
>
> i guess you aren't allowed to.
>
> we always did it anyway. ;)
That's part of the beauty of being a law abiding American citizen.
We have lots of laws, but we don't pay attention to any of them.
PP
Matthew King
: Kraftwerk, FM Einheit, DaF, Klaus Nomi, and general late 70s German
: neo-cabaret scene (electric cabaret) + Nick Cave, David Bowie, Iggy
: Pop, and Blixa Bargeld = 'Goth'
Zees eez ein eenteresting teory, ya.
For some reason it never struck me before how absent the Germans are from
the standard anglocentric histories of "goth".
But then, at what point did electric cabaret + Nick Cave etc. become
Gothik? If the idea/label was imported from the UK, then I think your
theory kind of falls apart. But if it predates Siouxsie and Joy Division
and (particularly) the Sex Gang Children, then I think you're on to
something (and you might be Everett's new hero.;)
By the by, a couple of months ago, I did a gooja search for "Nick Cave
isn't goth" and variations thereon. Came up with surprisingly few hits
(mostly of the "yeah yeah I know Nick Cave isn't goth" variety; as far as
I can tell, gooja records no alt.gothic debate over the gothicity of Nick
Cave), leading me to wonder how I got such a strong impression early in my
tenure here that Nick Cave Isn't Goth (and Everyone Hates The Sisters).
: 'Goth' + Punk = whatever we feel we want to call or not call ourselves
: today.
Er. What *do* we want or not to call ourselves today?
And what do you have to say to the Pete Scathe line that "goth" was
invented in response to Sex Gang Children and thus directly descended from
punk?
: Why do you think they called the band Bauhaus?
Postmodernist pastiche? A poke at high-modernist pretension?
: Well I gave you my theory. My feeling is that there there was a
: cabaret revival in Berlin in the 70s. Punk got a hold of it, and
: voila. In fact, there were people in artistic circles as early as the
: mid-18th century who called themselves goths
Got any handy-dandy references on that?
: and were, philosophically, not much different from us.
Eep. What's our philosophy?
: the 30s added decadence to retro-romantic medievalism
Not to mention NAZISM! :D
: Why does this happen mainly in Germany and the UK?
Two-bit cultural analysis has it that the UK produces subcultures at such
an alarming rate because of its Rigid Class Structure and consequent Youth
Alienation. Does that map onto Germany at all well?
: In the face of the overwhelming worship of Mediterranean
: tastes and culture as the basis of Western society, both countries
: feel the need to embrace a separate, equally powerful northern
: 'gothic' identity.
But not the *countries*, right, it's their Disaffected Youth. (Looking for
family, searching for tribe.) Of course, from what I gather, nationalism
in the UK is a curious thing--it's somehow subversive and almost un-
patriotic to be pro-British. Strange how a country with no effective
liberal party could have become so immersed in its liberal non-identity. I
can only suppose that it's just the same but infinitely moreso in Germany.
But anyway. How much of The Scene over there is or ever was really
searching for some kind of Ancient Gothic Heritage (the true north strong
and free!)? From here, that sounds like it could be sociological
overinterpretation, but maybe that's just because, applied to here, it
*is* sociological overinterpretation.
Matthew
-Matthew-King---"I-tried-to-tell-her-about-Marx-and-Engels------------
-Toronto---------God-and-angels-I-don't-really-know-what-for----------
-Canada----------but-she-looked-good-in-ribbons"-The-Sisters-of-Mercy-
Erika V.
> But then, at what point did electric cabaret + Nick Cave etc. become
> Gothik? If the idea/label was imported from the UK, then I think your
> theory kind of falls apart. But if it predates Siouxsie and Joy Division
> and (particularly) the Sex Gang Children, then I think you're on to
> something (and you might be Everett's new hero.;)
Well, the problem here is nomenclature. If we want to say that 'goth'
only existed when people started calling it 'goth', then we are using
labels in a manner that many people in the scene would shoot us for.
Putting so much stock in that word, we then postulate that the
movement started after it was named, and why would you name something
that didn't already exist? On the contrary, most artistic movements
are subject to labelling somewhere between the peak of their influence
and their decline. There is much debate in the field of art history
about the labelling of movements (such as Romanesque, Rococo, Dada, or
what have you.) Really it all boils down to the fact that the human
brain uses clusters and categories to sort and interpret sensory data.
We can't understand and synthesize without it. Point is: 'goth' and
'goths' as a concept had to be around for some time before joe band
member or critic perceived it as coherent and persistent enough an
idea to deserve a name.
> By the by, a couple of months ago, I did a gooja search for "Nick Cave
> isn't goth" and variations thereon. Came up with surprisingly few hits
> (mostly of the "yeah yeah I know Nick Cave isn't goth" variety;
Siouxsie's not goth either, remember? Pahleeeeease! Goth exists, and
they were both formative elements of it. Get over it.
> Er. What *do* we want or not to call ourselves today?
alt.gothic apparently, though none of us are goth. We just found this
newsgroup randomly with no prior understanding that the word 'gothic'
represents a group of ideas that are interesting to us. What a
coincidence! (If you haven't noticed - the 'I'm not goth' thing really
irks me. Stop using language altogether if you find representing
common ideas with words or other signals so offensive. Maybe you can
use a ridiculous symbol like Prince. :P)
> And what do you have to say to the Pete Scathe line that "goth" was
> invented in response to Sex Gang Children and thus directly descended from
> punk?
I would say, well, what were the ideas that went into Sex Gang
Children that these people found so interesting? As far as I have
gleaned, people merely attribute the name 'goth' to Ian Astbury
calling Andi Sex Gang 'Count Visigoth' and his followers 'goths'. Yes,
fine, but Andi Sex Gang is not a biblical god. He did not invent that
aesthetic in a void.
> : Why do you think they called the band Bauhaus?
>
> Postmodernist pastiche? A poke at high-modernist pretension?
Minimalist aesthetic. Murphy has said so in interviews.
> : voila. In fact, there were people in artistic circles as early as the
> : mid-18th century who called themselves goths
> Got any handy-dandy references on that?
*Rummages through her 18th century architectural theory notes*
Here's a funny concept: Consider one Horace Walpole (1717-1797) as the
Andi Sex Gang of the 18th century. Again, when reading about Walpole
and his followers, bear in mind that he didn't create 18th century
neo-gothic, he merely gave a strong voice to a pre-existing
undercurrent of culture. I don't remember which book I read that
referred to people calling Walpole's circle 'goths', (I read this
subject two years ago) but it was probably one of these:
Chalcroft, Anna. A Paper House: Horace Walpole at Strawberry Hill.
Beverley, 1998.
Clark, Kenneth. The Gothic Revival: An Essay in the History of Taste.
London, 1950.
McCarthy, Michael. The Origins of the Gothic Revival. Yale, 1987.
I seem also to remember that various members of the Pre-Raphaelite
Brotherhood were also labelled as 'goths' by their contemporaries.
I'll see if I can dig up some lit on that.
> : and were, philosophically, not much different from us.
>
> Eep. What's our philosophy?
Embracing cultural phenomena traditionally scorned by mainstream
society as 'evil', 'barbaric', or 'lacking order.' I think it's safe
to say that this is true for most of us, ja?
> : the 30s added decadence to retro-romantic medievalism
>
> Not to mention NAZISM! :D
Good that you brought this up - I'd like to find out more about what
was happening in mid-1970s Europe that led to the youth culture
fascination with Nazism - perhaps it merely drew the attention of
people who embrace the 'evil', 'barbaric' 'lack of order'. In the
mid-70s, Throbbing Gristle, for example, organized a holiday outing to
Auschwitz for people within their circle of influence. David Bowie
became fascinated with Nazism, probably partially leading to his
relocation to Berlin at that time. Any ideas as to why Nazism became
particularly interesting in that era?
> : Why does this happen mainly in Germany and the UK?
>
> Two-bit cultural analysis has it that the UK produces subcultures at such
> an alarming rate because of its Rigid Class Structure and consequent Youth
> Alienation. Does that map onto Germany at all well?
Hmmmmmmmm. Not really. And I wouldn't say that Germany produces many
youth subcultures in the commercial sense. In the 60s, Germany tended
to import US hippie love shit (this is a technical term :P) But in the
early to mid 70s, people like Tangerine Dream, Can, Kraftwerk, etc.
bucked off that trend to express the mass technological
industrialization of their country. German ingenuity had to go
somewhere - and the country isn't that big. What did they see around
them? Factories (Werks), linearity, and minimalist industrial design a
la the 1919 Bauhaus. Add to that a country split in two (Berlin Wall
built 1961.) What did German youth see and hear about every day?
Barbed wire, wall, minefields, and tanks. In my personal experience,
actually seeing the iron curtain as a kid while on a train from East
to West was the single most influential and personality-molding event
of my life, hands-fucking-down. Expressionist industrial ideas such as
those of Fritz Lang and Walter Gropius were ripe for a serious revival
at the time.
Generally, the most popular youth cultures in Germany now are still
industrial, gothic, and, of course, millions of serious-ass
techno-ravers (and some like to think that stuff all boils down to the
Kraftwerk influence too.)
> : In the face of the overwhelming worship of Mediterranean
> : tastes and culture as the basis of Western society, both countries
> : feel the need to embrace a separate, equally powerful northern
> : 'gothic' identity.
>
> But not the *countries*, right, it's their Disaffected Youth.
I was thinking earlier, like the late 18th and 19th centuries - the
height of both empires - where Germany and England were virtually
fighting over the right to claim gothic as their national style. Many
many critical essays exist by both Germans and English staking their
claim to gothic design as a national style. You have an empire - you
need a visual national identity to impose on your colonies. No,
disaffected youth are not thinking imperialist colonial identity,
haha! I'm sure by the later 20th century, the origin of thinking that
gothic style was a German or English thing was probably completely
lost on Joe street kid. People are just affected by what they see
around them. They assimilate that and use it according to their own
experience and tastes.
Should I start copywriting this?
Crap, it's 3 a.m. Man, Matthew, you make me work for my cookie.
skerry.
onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>Maybe you can
>use a ridiculous symbol like Prince. :P)
IIRC, that had more to do with record contracts than
his ub3r1337n355.
carrie
---> skerry [oot] ossuary [dawt] net
---> *
---> the heart bowed down by weight of woe to weakest hope will cling.
---> alfred bunn.
lorelei
Lisi...@neverwhen.net says...
(snip)
>Anyone who hasn't had a listen to Goethe's Erben or Stendal Blast
>should do so. Now. I can also make a plug for German New Wave here.
>There are many many many Neue Deutsche Welle bands that never got
>released outside of Germany. Some hardcore Einsturzende Neubauten fans
>may know of Palais Schaumburg (which, incidentally, babelfish will
>translate for you as 'Palace Foam Castle', haha!), Abwaerts, and
>Malaria. If you are a Kraftwerk head, give Grauzone or Der Plan a
>listen. Speaking of Der Plan, DaF freaks? - go for Fehlfarben and
>Mittagspause too. This could be a whole other thread. I'll stop now.
>Deutschrockgirl.org will be up eventually. I promise.
Ooh, I hope so. I've been to a few NDW nights here now (took me 3 months to get
the courage to ask someone what the hell NDW meant!) and it's so refreshing to
hear 80s tunes that are totally unfamiliar to me. Really good stuff.
(snip)
>Rest assured, the Sachsen dialect, for example, is lost on most native
>Germans also. I can't make out much of it myself. I'm not a native
>speaker, but I'm fairly fluent. And drunken Sachsen? Forget it! I once
>had a conversation with my brain that went something like this:
>"Ooooo, cute German boy talking to me in club . . . understanding,
>understanding, ooo, I'm getting good at this dialect" Then . . .
>"Ummmmmmmm, are you still speaking German?" Cute boy: "Ach scheisse!
>Mein Dialekt." My brain: "Fuck."
ha, ha! I don't know why, but I mostly seem to attract Ossies who've studied no
English whatsoever. It's nice sometimes, as I find the Easterners totally
fascinating and the language barrier means no stupid small talk. But things tend
to screech to a halt after a certain point.
Mein gott, such sexy boys, those Ossies. A friend of mine tells me that people
in the DDR had sex like they had dinner!
Matthew King
Erika V. (lisi...@neverwhen.net) wrote:
: mak...@yorku.ca (Matthew King) wrote in message news:<9rk06l$gfv$1...@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca>...
:
: > But then, at what point did electric cabaret + Nick Cave etc. become
: > Gothik? If the idea/label was imported from the UK, then I think your
: > theory kind of falls apart. But if it predates Siouxsie and Joy Division
: > and (particularly) the Sex Gang Children, then I think you're on to
: > something (and you might be Everett's new hero.;)
:
: Well, the problem here is nomenclature. If we want to say that 'goth'
: only existed when people started calling it 'goth', then we are using
: labels in a manner that many people in the scene would shoot us for.
: Putting so much stock in that word, we then postulate that the
: movement started after it was named, and why would you name something
: that didn't already exist?
Movement do typically take place under a banner, don't they? The Communist
movement may be an apt analogy. There were already socialistic
revolutionary movements in Europe before Marx, sure--my vague impression
is that the Communist Manifesto was written to focus the revolts of
1848--but they weren't Communist; proto-Communist, maybe, but not
Communist.
: On the contrary, most artistic movements are subject to labelling
: somewhere between the peak of their influence and their decline.
My impression, which could be mistaken, is that this has been less and
less true since at least the mid- to late 19th century. Didn't Monet and
his buddies set out to create a movement called impressionism? If not,
they certainly did set out to create a movement, whatever anyone wanted to
call it, didn't they? At any rate: it was *self-conscious* as a movement
more or less from its beginnings--wasn't it? Isn't the same true of
surrealism and abstract expressionism (the latter of which had its
critical theorists and champions right from the beginning)? I do know for
sure that the same is true of Canada's Group of Seven early in the 20th
century, who conceived themselves as a school that attracted, and a
movement that inspired, other artists (even if no one ever named what they
were doing, apart from what-those-guys-are-doing).
: Really it all boils down to the fact that the human
: brain uses clusters and categories to sort and interpret sensory data.
: We can't understand and synthesize without it. Point is: 'goth' and
: 'goths' as a concept had to be around for some time before joe band
: member or critic perceived it as coherent and persistent enough an
: idea to deserve a name.
But we need to distinguish the idea(s) from the movement. (As I've been
suggesting here and there over the last several months: certain "gothic"
ideas from the post-punk "goth" movement/subculture/scene/whathaveyou.)
: > By the by, a couple of months ago, I did a gooja search for "Nick Cave
: > isn't goth" and variations thereon. Came up with surprisingly few hits
: > (mostly of the "yeah yeah I know Nick Cave isn't goth" variety;
:
: Siouxsie's not goth either, remember?
Well, no, I don't :). But the reason I was looking was that I wanted to
know what the arguments were for Nick Cave's ungothitude. Best I can
figure is it's because he never wore eyeliner or fetish gear. I dunno. You
know, if you ask me, Birthday Party and early NCatBS sounds a lot like Joy
Division. I haven't seen anyone say "Joy Division isn't goth", which may
either be because Pete Scathe says they invented goth, or because they're
so not goth that their not-gothness isn't even worth mentioning.
This stuff is all so hard to figure.
It sure seems, though, like the culture of this newsgroup as well as the
clubs is a hell of a lot more musically inclusive than it was when I
arrived three years ago. Then, you had to apologize for mentioning Nick
Cave. Now, you don't have to apologize for mentioning VNV Nation (or even
quoting them liberally--sorry, skerry;).
: Goth exists, and they were both formative elements of it. Get over it.
*Formative* elements? You mean they were there at the beginning of it, or
that they shaped it as it was passing through their hands? Do you mean
goth as "idea" or goth as movement here?
: > Er. What *do* we want or not to call ourselves today?
:
: alt.gothic apparently, though none of us are goth. We just found this
: newsgroup randomly with no prior understanding that the word 'gothic'
: represents a group of ideas that are interesting to us.
I doubt very many people are here to discuss Gothic Ideas (TM). I mean,
how many threads here are concerned with Gothic Ideas? Two or three in a
year, maybe? That's the central point in Everett's schtick, you
know--ain't nothing Gothic going on in alt.gothic; it's just a bunch of
hippies in black! (And a lot of them aren't even in black, from what I
understand.) Anyway, look at the holy FAQ: once upon a time, somebody was
deluded into thinking that goth had something to do with Pre-Raphaelites
and all that crap. Joke's on them! Goth is really about snakebite and
black, cloves, and Nice Boots.
*My* problem talking about The Goth Thing is that I don't know a damn
thing about goths and what they think except for net.goths. And firstly,
there are a lot of people who aren't goths in real life but play goths on
the internet (I'm a borderline case of that myself). Secondly, my
impression is that a lot of people who think they're goths out there IRL
have a tendency to take it all a whole hell of a lot more seriously than
net.goths do. But I really, really don't know.
: If you haven't noticed - the 'I'm not goth' thing really irks me.
"I'm not goth", or "I'm not *a* goth"? Personally, saying "I'm goth"
sounds silly to me--too much like "I have the Inner Darkness (TM)" (and
lends itself too much to silliness like a friend of mine calling people "a
bit goth" if they wear black shirts now and then). *A* goth is different--
but then, how goth do you have to be before you're a goth? ;)
Whether or not I'd think of myself as "a goth" is entirely dependent on
context. When I'm out at a listmeet, or if I was at Convergence, then,
sure, I'd be one of the goths. If I'm at the front of a classroom, I'm not
a goth teaching--even if I look exactly the same as I do at a listmeet.
Sometimes it's a relevant category, sometimes it's not. But then, if
you're "really goth", you're always a goth, no matter where you are,
right? If I was teaching in whiteface, I could hardly avoid being a goth
teaching, could I. But then, being "really goth" here isn't about anything
but fashion....
: > : Why do you think they called the band Bauhaus?
: >
: > Postmodernist pastiche? A poke at high-modernist pretension?
:
: Minimalist aesthetic. Murphy has said so in interviews.
Oh. So it wasn't a poke, it was the pretension itself.
: Clark, Kenneth. The Gothic Revival: An Essay in the History of Taste.
: London, 1950.
I happened to pull this book off my shelf last week to read on the subway,
not having noticed that it was on your list. Now I guess I'll have to
actually finish the thing. :)
: I seem also to remember that various members of the Pre-Raphaelite
: Brotherhood were also labelled as 'goths' by their contemporaries.
: I'll see if I can dig up some lit on that.
Everett promised me references on this a few weeks ago too, but he seems
to be jet-setting again.
: > : and were, philosophically, not much different from us.
: >
: > Eep. What's our philosophy?
:
: Embracing cultural phenomena traditionally scorned by mainstream
: society as 'evil', 'barbaric', or 'lacking order.' I think it's safe
: to say that this is true for most of us, ja?
Who is "us"? It doesn't describe me, anyway. So can I safely say that I'm
not goth? ;) (The main problem with all of this business of definition is
that the *what* needs to be defined in terms of the *us*--and vice versa.
You have to arbitrarily nail one down and tie the other one to it.)
On the specific point above, I guess part of the trouble is that the goth
aesthetic today, insofar as it's inspired by things Victorian, is largely
about embracing traditional cultural phenomena faddishly scorned by
mainstream society as old-fashioned, high-brow, and constricting--more or
less the opposite of what you identify as "goth philosophy".
: > : the 30s added decadence to retro-romantic medievalism
: >
: > Not to mention NAZISM! :D
:
: Good that you brought this up - I'd like to find out more about what
: was happening in mid-1970s Europe that led to the youth culture
: fascination with Nazism - perhaps it merely drew the attention of
: people who embrace the 'evil', 'barbaric' 'lack of order'.
Associating Nazism with barbarism is questionable--after all, Hitler and
Speer wanted to rebuild Rome (as, certainly, did the Italian fascists), to
return Europe to its Imperial grandeur, before the barbarians (including
the Christians) sent everything to hell, didn't they? And lack of order
... well, I was going to say that Nazism is about the very opposite of
lack of order, but then I went to a Death in June site to look up the
dude's name, and here's this: "suddenly here you have the Do What Thou
Wilt ethos guarded with the fanaticism and rigour of an SS
Einsatzkommando. The aesthetic is occult fascist anarchism and the message
is that 'Dangerous Ideas' shall triumph over those who would impinge our
freedoms."
Anyway, Germany in the early '70s was going through what was called a
"legitimation crisis"--more or less, as I understand it, the state was
struggling to maintain the allegiance of civil society in light of its
shift from being the embodiment of a volk to a social service-provider for
client-citizens. Presumably the interest in Nazism may have been a
manifestation of that. More generally, I suppose, the '70s were the
beginning of the continuing push to a united Europe; naturally,
nationalistic movements will spring up when people are faced with that
kind of threat to national identities.
Blahblediblah. I dunno. Panurge is the expert on the '70s around here. I
don't know if he does Europe, though. ;)
: What did German youth see and hear about every day?
: Barbed wire, wall, minefields, and tanks. In my personal experience,
: actually seeing the iron curtain as a kid while on a train from East
: to West was the single most influential and personality-molding event
: of my life, hands-fucking-down.
Do you get the feeling that Germans generally take their "goth" a lot more
seriously than Anglos?
: I'm sure by the later 20th century, the origin of thinking that
: gothic style was a German or English thing was probably completely
: lost on Joe street kid.
But not to Douglas Pearce, right ... and around and around in circles we
go. Zut alors.
: People are just affected by what they see around them. They assimilate
: that and use it according to their own experience and tastes.
Exactly. We all make our own styles, man! I am a beautiful and unique
snowflake! You can't keep me down with your labels!
: Should I start copywriting this?
The thing I always wonder is, should I be writing this somewhere else? ;)
: Crap, it's 3 a.m. Man, Matthew, you make me work for my cookie.
Well, somebody's got to keep you in shape for when the Postmodernist
Hordes kick off, right? ;)
John Everett
> Everett promised me references on this a few weeks ago
> too, but he seems to be jet-setting again.
I hit Delta Platnium with this trip to Phoenix, actually. (Right next to my
hotel, the expressway that I take to the worksite says, "202 to Los
Angeles" -- I keep thinking that a sweet visit to Jimbo is just a short
drive away.)
> : Embracing cultural phenomena traditionally scorned
> : by mainstream society as 'evil', 'barbaric', or 'lacking
> : order.' I think it's safe to say that this is true for most
> : of us, ja?
>
> Who is "us"? It doesn't describe me, anyway. So can I
> safely say that I'm not goth? ;)
No, she's talking art fags, not goths. The 'cabaret' codeword should have
first tipped you off. The second tip off is her surreptitious inclusion of
'evil' above. The Pre-Raphelites certainly never considered themselves
'evil'. You don't get metaphors of 'evil' usually until your dealing with
the petty rebellions of adolescents and/or pansies.
> Exactly. We all make our own styles, man! I am
> a beautiful and unique snowflake! You can't keep
> me down with your labels!
Don't forget to swap your tie-dye for black before the next spin of your
"Free to Be You and Me" record.
John
Tiny Human Ferret
<CHOMP>
> You don't get metaphors of 'evil' usually until your dealing with
> the petty rebellions of adolescents and/or pansies.
Tell that to the President or whoever's writing his speeches.
Lucid H. Dreaming
>John Everett wrote:
>
><CHOMP>
>
>
>> You don't get metaphors of 'evil' usually until your dealing with
>> the petty rebellions of adolescents and/or pansies.
>
>Tell that to the President or whoever's writing his speeches.
Your president is obviously a pansie.
?
--
you're schroedinger's collateral.
you're dead, but you both are and are not a military target;
and they won't know until they search your corpse for a gun. -- nightshade
Matthew King
: No, she's talking art fags, not goths. The 'cabaret' codeword should have
: first tipped you off. The second tip off is her surreptitious inclusion of
: 'evil' above. The Pre-Raphelites certainly never considered themselves
: 'evil'.
I'm not sure how they considered themselves on the subject, but having
seen just a bit of their work, and on the evidence of their champion's
apparent inability to get it up for Effie (even if, of course, your
namesake suffered no such affliction), I doubt that "art fag" misses their
mark by much.
Matthew
Matthew-King---Toronto---Canada---"Have-you-come-here-to-play-Jesus-
-----------------------------------to-the-lepers-in-your-head?"-U2--
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> In article <3BF3C63D...@clark.net>, Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
> >John Everett wrote:
> >
> ><CHOMP>
> >
> >
> >> You don't get metaphors of 'evil' usually until your dealing with
> >> the petty rebellions of adolescents and/or pansies.
> >
> >Tell that to the President or whoever's writing his speeches.
>
> Your president is obviously a pansie.
On behalf of Mr President, who is busy getting rained on in Texas, allow me
to say "bite me crank then".
Personally I'd have thought he would be more into adolescence, but what do I
know.
hold it, what's the Secret Service doing in a _Goth Bar_??
IHCOYC XPICTOC
> hold it, what's the Secret Service doing in a _Goth Bar_??
Not to worry. They just need to ask as to where's a good place to buy
sunglasses. . .
--
IHCOYC XPICTOC D.G. IMP. LAURASIAE ET GONDWANALANDIAE
http://members.iglou.com/gustavus
All the malesouns and waresouns that ever gat warldlie creatur sen the
begynnyng of the warlde to this hour mot licht apon thaim. The maledictioun
of God, that lichtit upon Lucifer and all his fallowis, that strak thaim
frae the hie hevin to the deip hell, mot licht apon theim.
--- Gavin Dunbar, Archbishop of Glasgow (1525)
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
> > hold it, what's the Secret Service doing in a _Goth Bar_??
>
> Not to worry. They just need to ask as to where's a good place to buy
> sunglasses. . .
Or trying to track down the partying daughters...
Erika V.
> But we need to distinguish the idea(s) from the movement.
Why? One doesn't function without the other.
> : Goth exists, and they were both formative elements of it. Get over it.
>
> *Formative* elements? You mean they were there at the beginning of it, or
> that they shaped it as it was passing through their hands? Do you mean
> goth as "idea" or goth as movement here?
Shaped it as it passed through their hands. I like that phraseology.
Thankyou. :)
> understand.) Anyway, look at the holy FAQ: once upon a time, somebody was
> deluded into thinking that goth had something to do with Pre-Raphaelites
> and all that crap. Joke's on them! Goth is really about snakebite and
> black, cloves, and Nice Boots.
Haha! And the Pre-Raphaelites weren't about these things? I very much
beg to differ! And they did it far more grandly than us!
> : If you haven't noticed - the 'I'm not goth' thing really irks me.
>
> "I'm not goth", or "I'm not *a* goth"? Personally, saying "I'm goth"
> sounds silly to me--too much like "I have the Inner Darkness (TM)"
Well, I personally have the Inner Darkness (TM) and I'm damn proud of
it, though I try really hard to not use it to act like a teenager.
> but then, how goth do you have to be before you're a goth? ;)
It's all up to the individual really. How much Grateful Dead and
student protesting do you need to call yourself a hippie? It's really
up to the individual if they want to align themselves with a
philosophical title or not. I'm proud of my friends and my culture and
my interests. So I have no problem with calling myself goth if that's
what will help me be with more friends and culture and interests that
I will enjoy.
> right? If I was teaching in whiteface, I could hardly avoid being a goth
> teaching, could I. But then, being "really goth" here isn't about anything
> but fashion....
On the other hand, I teach in professional albeit slightly romantic
gear. Yet there's always a posse of my students who are able to 'spot
the goth' real quick just from my mannerisms and philosophical bent.
> : > : Why do you think they called the band Bauhaus?
> : >
> : > Postmodernist pastiche? A poke at high-modernist pretension?
> :
> : Minimalist aesthetic. Murphy has said so in interviews.
>
> Oh. So it wasn't a poke, it was the pretension itself.
Did you expect more? :P
> On the specific point above, I guess part of the trouble is that the goth
> aesthetic today, insofar as it's inspired by things Victorian, is largely
> about embracing traditional cultural phenomena faddishly scorned by
> mainstream society as old-fashioned, high-brow, and constricting--more or
> less the opposite of what you identify as "goth philosophy".
As I recall I was speaking of 'goths' as people who embrace what other
people scorn as barbaric. Barbaric = old-fashioned and constricting in
this context methinks.
> Do you get the feeling that Germans generally take their "goth" a lot more
> seriously than Anglos?
Yes I really really do. Much more pervasive cutural angstiness going
on there for a whole lot of reasons.
> Well, somebody's got to keep you in shape for when the Postmodernist
> Hordes kick off, right? ;)
My anti-establishment ass is killing me. Time for more pumpkin pie.
Lisiblac
Erika V.
Lisi...@neverwhen.net
Erika V.
> > : Embracing cultural phenomena traditionally scorned
> > : by mainstream society as 'evil', 'barbaric', or 'lacking
> > : order.' I think it's safe to say that this is true for most
> > : of us, ja?
Matthew King wrote:
> > Who is "us"? It doesn't describe me, anyway. So can I
> > safely say that I'm not goth? ;)
Then John Everett wrote:
> No, she's talking art fags, not goths. The 'cabaret' codeword should have
> first tipped you off. The second tip off is her surreptitious inclusion of
> 'evil' above. The Pre-Raphelites certainly never considered themselves
> 'evil'. You don't get metaphors of 'evil' usually until your dealing with
> the petty rebellions of adolescents and/or pansies.
Please read carefully there, I said nothing of the sort. I said that
mainstream society traditionally connotes such things as 'evil'.
Obviously if the Pre-Raphaelites or we are embracing it, we don't
think it's evil. It can come down very simply to the idea that by the
mid-nineteenth century mainstream British society still had a bit of
Mediterranean worship going on. That is, many saw Greco-Roman ideals
as true and orderly, while 'Gothic' or medieval ideas were seen as
false or disorderly. A smaller group (Ruskin and the Pre-Raphaelites
included,) however, embraced Gothic ideals and held them up as
something true to rival or even surpass Greco-Roman modes of thought.
It is an entire book to go into their basis for this, but the point is
they were holding Gothic ideals up as being true and good, while most
mainstream purveyors of taste were still attempting to say they were
false and evil.
Please for not to cut down someone's argument without reading it
carefully. There are few things more annoying.
Lisiblac
Erika V.
Lisi...@neverwhen.net
Back from rassling gators.
rad...@spam.earthlink.net
<eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> wrote:
> "Matthew King" wrote...
> > Everett promised me references on this a few weeks ago
> > too, but he seems to be jet-setting again.
>
> I hit Delta Platnium with this trip to Phoenix, actually. (Right next to my
> hotel, the expressway that I take to the worksite says, "202 to Los
> Angeles" -- I keep thinking that a sweet visit to Jimbo is just a short
> drive away.)
Good thing you reconsidered, since as of your writing I was six
thousand miles away being bombarded by as much Pre-Raphaelite and
aesthetic movement claptrap as I could stomach.
> > : Embracing cultural phenomena traditionally scorned
> > : by mainstream society as 'evil', 'barbaric', or 'lacking
> > : order.' I think it's safe to say that this is true for most
> > : of us, ja?
> >
> > Who is "us"? It doesn't describe me, anyway. So can I
> > safely say that I'm not goth? ;)
>
> No, she's talking art fags, not goths. The 'cabaret' codeword should have
> first tipped you off. The second tip off is her surreptitious inclusion of
> 'evil' above. The Pre-Raphelites certainly never considered themselves
> 'evil'.
No, but their critics certainly dismissed their aesthetics as primtive
and steeped in barbarism. Evil is seldom defined by its proponants,
but rather by its opponants.
> You don't get metaphors of 'evil' usually until your dealing with
> the petty rebellions of adolescents and/or pansies.
Or the late aesthetic movement, which while far too vital for the staid
Mr. Ruskin is absolutely an outgrowth of his philosophies.
> > Exactly. We all make our own styles, man! I am
> > a beautiful and unique snowflake! You can't keep
> > me down with your labels!
>
> Don't forget to swap your tie-dye for black before the next spin of your
> "Free to Be You and Me" record.
I think youve found you calling, John. I think its high time for new
icons of paternalistic order and decency, the old ones being rather
dusty at this point. Sort of a Morris type revivalism. You could call
your album "Free to do as Youre Told and Like it." You could include
tracks like "Puritains are People", "My Dog is a Plantagenet", replace
Atalanta with Leda as a cautionary tale about the dangers of unwed
motherhood and of course Ladies First is pretty much just fine as it
is, you just have to change the end to having her locked in a loveless
but financialy secure marriage instead of devoured alive.
A few well placed words from Rush and the American Spectator and you'll
have a whole new bully pulpit. Just dont forget the little people.
Jim Dugan
lorelei
Lisi...@neverwhen.net says...(snip)
>> Do you get the feeling that Germans generally take their "goth" a lot more
>> seriously than Anglos?
>
>Yes I really really do. Much more pervasive cutural angstiness going
>on there for a whole lot of reasons.
I dunno about this--depends how you look at it. I think Merkin goths win hands
down when it comes to taking themselves *too* seriously. Just look how much of
this newsgroup's content is comprised of self-important pseudo-literate moaning
and navel-gazing, as opposed to any of the other regional goth NGs. Though they
may not take the piss out of themselves to quite the degree that the Brits do,
the Germans I know are generally much more grounded in reality than most
American goths I've known. ;)
But if we speak of the degree of interest they take in their subculture, then
yes, I think the Germans are infinitely more serious about their "goth". I
sometimes wonder if there even *is* a goth "culture" left at all in the States,
as the apathy level seems to be ever-increasing. Maybe this newsgroup isn't the
best yardstick by which to measure such a thing, but...doesn't anyone listen to
music (let alone *make* music, go to gigs, etc) anymore?
lorelei (more in love with Berlin every day)
~~~~
"A European says: "I can't understand this, what's wrong with me?" An American
says: "I can't understand this, what's wrong with him?"--terry pratchett
Matthew King
: mak...@yorku.ca (Matthew King) wrote in message
: > But we need to distinguish the idea(s) from the movement.
:
: Why? One doesn't function without the other.
Well, I'm talking about the movement which I, following the Unofficial
Official History of Goth (Pete Scathe and all that jazz), take to have
sprung out of punk and/or whatever twenty-odd years ago, which led to kids
dressing up in black and calling themselves "goths" and thinking they're
part of a subculture or a lifestyle or something. You could talk about the
movement which you take to have taken off slightly before that, out of
"electro-cabaret", David Bowie, and all that, and which quickly
cross-pollinated with the anglo one. Before that, for however many years,
there was no movement, right? But I take it you want to argue that the
goth idea was always there.
: > Anyway, look at the holy FAQ: once upon a time, somebody was
: > deluded into thinking that goth had something to do with Pre-Raphaelites
: > and all that crap. Joke's on them! Goth is really about snakebite and
: > black, cloves, and Nice Boots.
:
: Haha! And the Pre-Raphaelites weren't about these things? I very much
: beg to differ! And they did it far more grandly than us!
Maybe. But I think "we" tend to like our paintings to balance their light
with darkness--at least. Most of their actual paintings (that I've seen,
anyway, though I know some like that Ophelia for its Renn Faire appeal)
seem like the un-goffiest things going, by most contemporary colloquial
standards of gofficity. They're just so bloody bright and colourful!
: > right? If I was teaching in whiteface, I could hardly avoid being a goth
: > teaching, could I. But then, being "really goth" here isn't about anything
: > but fashion....
:
: On the other hand, I teach in professional albeit slightly romantic
: gear. Yet there's always a posse of my students who are able to 'spot
: the goth' real quick just from my mannerisms and philosophical bent.
Mannerisms? Philosophical bent? Explain. :)
: > : > : Why do you think they called the band Bauhaus?
: > : >
: > : > Postmodernist pastiche? A poke at high-modernist pretension?
: > :
: > : Minimalist aesthetic. Murphy has said so in interviews.
: >
: > Oh. So it wasn't a poke, it was the pretension itself.
:
: Did you expect more? :P
See .sig.
Matthew
Matthew-King---Toronto---Canada---"Now-I-am-silly-Now-I-am-silly-Silly-
-----------------------------------Silly-silly-silly-silly"--Bauhaus---