Am I gothic?
Damion
have a reason to post.
I'm out of dreaded high-school early and I'm already missing it.
I must be crazy to think that way. Sure I hated school, but there was
something I liked about it. It must have been the self-expression
thing people are always talking about. Plus I miss being able to
'rebel'. Even though I didn't do that often. Let me see them try to
ask me to not wear my coat again. Its amazing how many things the
authorities in school get away with because nobody does anything about
it. They fuck it all to Hell, those school authorities. They aren't
even consistent in their motives. For one thing they will claim they
are trying to prepare the students for adult life, but then they turn
around and give them childish privilages. Anyone could tell they have
different motives.
But I only have about exactly 13 years until my first kid gets
into jr high. Heheh. We're gonna give the schools Hell. Mwahahaha.
Being an adult has its advantages.
***
I used to have an all-black wardrobe, but now I somehow mixed
some blue jeans into there, and some grey and white shirts. I don't
really mind the shirts -- white goes good with black -- but the jeans
don't become me. Becky says they look sexy on me....I guess they're
okay. As long as I wear all black or some black most of the time.
Funny I wear so much black when blue is my favorite color.
So I don't have any mental depression conditions and I'm seeing a
shrink for no apparent reason. I was only suicidal for a few months
and my grades have improved gradually. I don't think I need her for
any obvious reasons, and most definitely not for psychological
disorders.
I don't write poetry, and I don't particularly like much of the
music associated with goth. I like Oingo Boingo.
I've never worn makeup to school, but I dyed my hair black once
just for kicks. Its still growing out. I adopted the same mundane
haircut throughout most of my school. But I do wear makeup on occasion
to parties and dances, however rare they are.
I wear a trenchcoat regularly, but so do news reporters,
sometimes Dave Matthews band, and that Airtouch Cellular guy (he's
chizz.) I like it partially because of the large and numerous (5)
sometimes concealed pockets.
I don't have any piercings or tatoos, and I don't wear much
jewelry. I don't wear fishnets, but I might.
However I do so love nighttime and cloudy days, and have such an
aversion to the sun I only go out in it if I sorta have to.
I probably left out a lot of stuff, but my mind scatters when I
start to write.
magdalene
>Well I'm not really asking.
Well, I'm answering.
No.
And before you object...yes, I AM the
Gothic Police.
*writes you out a ticket*
There's a mandatory court date on this
one, son.
~magdalene
what the fuck does 'chizz' mean?
---
"That coloured chalk was forged by Lucifer himself!"
http://www.manifest-angel.com/magdalene
Nick/Yaruar
magdalene <batsinth...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011013213803...@mb-fy.aol.com...
> Damion wrote:
>
> >Well I'm not really asking.
>
> Well, I'm answering.
>
> No.
>
> And before you object...yes, I AM the
> Gothic Police.
>
> *writes you out a ticket*
> There's a mandatory court date on this
> one, son.
But who is the judge?
Nick/Yaruar
Edvamp
Dredd
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Not Perky Today
zcatcurious
> Well I'm not really asking. I'm just putting that there to pretend I
> have a reason to post.
i'm not and i don't have one
> I used to have an all-black wardrobe
i have a cat. she's black and white and on my lap and purry and the
only other person i've ever wanted to be. and today she dealt a
lesson in prudence to a dog eight times her size
> I was only suicidal for a few months
> and my grades have improved gradually.
i wonder if that would work for me?
> I don't write poetry
i write poetry, even though it's bad. for two reasons; 1/ so that
when i get good at it i have something to show myself how far i've
come, and 2/ so i can eventually claim to understand it enough to
justifiably critique someone else's
> I've never worn makeup to school
i did, but my wife laughed at me; i was an hour late because of the
designs i put on my nails
> I wear a trenchcoat regularly ... I like it partially because of the large and numerous (5)
> sometimes concealed pockets.
i wear an old patrolman's coat; i like it because it's warm, and
because it's almost catproof
> I don't have any piercings or tatoos
<see under "cat", above>
-zcatshredded
Father Holy
news:1213b68b.01101...@posting.google.com...
> Well I'm not really asking. I'm just putting that there to pretend I
> have a reason to post.
> I'm out of dreaded high-school early and I'm already missing it.
> I must be crazy to think that way. Sure I hated school, but there was
> something I liked about it.
Something you liked about high school?
-1 point
> thing people are always talking about. Plus I miss being able to
> 'rebel'.
You can't do that now?
-1 point
> ask me to not wear my coat again.
Your trench defines you?
-1 point
> Funny I wear so much black when blue is my favorite color.
Do I even have to?
-1 point
> I wear a trenchcoat regularly, but so do news reporters,
Creativity?
(We already took a point for the trench, I'll be nice.)
> I don't have any piercings or tatoos, and I don't wear much
> jewelry. I don't wear fishnets, but I might.
Let's see, body art -1, jewelry -1.
-2 points
Sum of 7 negative points.
Magdalene, detain the perp immediately.
Pump him full of Type-O and MM until he thinks Slipknot is god.
Then turn him loose at the Bratcave.
That ought to fix him up.
PP
magdalene
>Magdalene, detain the perp immediately.
>Pump him full of Type-O and MM until he thinks Slipknot is god.
My operatives are moving in, as
we speak. This guy will be sp00ky as
fuck in no time.
~magdalene
magdalene
>But who is the judge?
Me, me, me.
*dances with glee*
Damion
> No.
Okay. Nice to clear that up. Now why do people mistake me for
such all the time O.o
> And before you object...yes, I AM the
> Gothic Police.
>
> *writes you out a ticket*
> There's a mandatory court date on this
> one, son.
Aw, shit.
Father Holy
> > No.
>
> Okay. Nice to clear that up. Now why do people mistake me for
> such all the time O.o
Most people on the street don't know the first thing about this culture.
Most believe that if you're in black, you're one of them.
They learned this from the news, Jerry Springer and other sources of dubious
credit.
When was the last time you went dumpster diving?
PP
Joe Brenner
>Sum of 7 negative points.
But wait, doesn't he get some positive points for this:
Damion
/Anyway/, I'd had that on my mind for some time and I thought I
might get an 'official' outside opinion.
> > thing people are always talking about. Plus I miss being able to
> > 'rebel'.
> You can't do that now?
> -1 point
Note the fact I put that in quotes :P Of course I can do that
now, but I'm no longer in the school environment, which is a great
staging ground. I'm just dissapointed I can not provoke admins into
detaining me for no valid reason and laughing in their faces about it.
Course..... I never much got to do that in the first place..... guess
I wasn't too outstanding.
> > ask me to not wear my coat again.
> Your trench defines you?
> -1 point
No my trenchcoat doesn't define me. Did I say that? I guess I
did... but my main point was that the administrators trying to get it
off me was utterly..... er..... damn where's my thesaurus.
> > Funny I wear so much black when blue is my favorite color.
> Do I even have to?
> -1 point
Black goes good on me. Plus I don't have to match colors. Much
easier.
> > I wear a trenchcoat regularly, but so do news reporters,
> Creativity?
> (We already took a point for the trench, I'll be nice.)
I keep on forgetting its not even a trenchcoat. Just a regular
long coat. I only wear it 'cuz it looks good on me... at least people
tell me so.
> > I don't have any piercings or tatoos, and I don't wear much
> > jewelry. I don't wear fishnets, but I might.
> Let's see, body art -1, jewelry -1.
> -2 points
>
> Sum of 7 negative points.
>
> Magdalene, detain the perp immediately.
> Pump him full of Type-O and MM until he thinks Slipknot is god.
Meep.
I guess I was never cut out for it. I don't even put enough time
and effort into it. Hell, look at my track record. No makeup,
piercings, tatoos, hairstyle, depression, poetry, suicide, rebellion.
Maybe I just think there's better things to worry about.
fuzzy pink satan
onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
> I guess I was never cut out for it. I don't even put enough time
>and effort into it. Hell, look at my track record. No makeup,
>piercings, tatoos, hairstyle, depression, poetry, suicide, rebellion.
>Maybe I just think there's better things to worry about.
i hate it when people can't spell "tattoo" correctly.
there is a whole world of things to talk about; pick something
other than how gothic you are but really aren't because jesus,
you're so above it all.
carrie
---> mutilation @ fuzzy pink satan . com
---> scarred & smiling dying slow i'll scream to no-one left at all
---> i told you so i told you so i told you so..
---> new model army.
A.K.
>Well I'm not really asking. I'm just putting that there to pretend I
>have a reason to post.
No. In fact, it sounds like you're white trash. Or a troll. Probably
a troll.
> I'm out of dreaded high-school early and I'm already missing it.
>I must be crazy to think that way. Sure I hated school, but there was
>something I liked about it.
It made you feel like you had some kind of purpose or goal in life.
Now you realize how meaningless and stupid your life is. You are
incapable of generating your own meaning, and must get it simply by
opposing someone else's.
You are like the Vandals who, seeing the Roman mosaics, shattered
them, but who could never do anything as beautiful themselves.
> It must have been the self-expression
>thing people are always talking about. Plus I miss being able to
>'rebel'. Even though I didn't do that often. Let me see them try to
>ask me to not wear my coat again.
How pathetic that your main meaning in life came from disobeying
arbitrary rules arbitrarily. It would be one thing if you understood
the stystem under the rules and wished to flaunt that. But you object
merely to the exoteric manifestation.
> Its amazing how many things the
>authorities in school get away with because nobody does anything about
>it. They fuck it all to Hell, those school authorities. They aren't
>even consistent in their motives. For one thing they will claim they
>are trying to prepare the students for adult life, but then they turn
>around and give them childish privilages. Anyone could tell they have
>different motives.
So what are their motives? What are your motives? Why do you object to
them so much?
I have a hard time believing that you are not still in high school.
You sound really immature.
> But I only have about exactly 13 years until my first kid gets
>into jr high. Heheh. We're gonna give the schools Hell. Mwahahaha.
>Being an adult has its advantages.
Dear god, who let you breed?
And is that what the focus of your life is going to be? To wait 13
years until your genetic spew enters high school so you can re-live
those glory years of rebelling agains the Man?
High School is a pale shadow of what the Man can do (to you). If
you're must rebel, why not choose something that actually matters?
> I used to have an all-black wardrobe,
So?
>but now I somehow mixed
>some blue jeans into there, and some grey and white shirts. I don't
>really mind the shirts -- white goes good with black -- but the jeans
>don't become me. Becky says they look sexy on me....I guess they're
>okay. As long as I wear all black or some black most of the time.
As long as you wear black, what? Monekys will not fly out of your ass?
You failed to complete the sentence.
>Funny I wear so much black when blue is my favorite color.
No, it's not funny. It's not even vaguely interesting. Thanks for
sharing. Now shut up.
> So I don't have any mental depression conditions and I'm seeing a
>shrink for no apparent reason. I was only suicidal for a few months
>and my grades have improved gradually. I don't think I need her for
>any obvious reasons, and most definitely not for psychological
>disorders.
I would say that being suicidal is a pretty apparent reason. There
you go again seeing only the manifestations but not examining the
underlying causes. When one is "suicidal for a few months" one tends
to have underlying psychological problems. Hence, you probably do.
But I could have told you that from the rebelling against high school
with your offspring comment.
> I don't write poetry, and I don't particularly like much of the
>music associated with goth.
I reiterate. You Are Not A Goth.
>I like Oingo Boingo.
A shred of taste among all the drivel. But Oingo Boingo isn't goth.
> I've never worn makeup to school, but I dyed my hair black once
>just for kicks.
How subversive of you..
>Its still growing out. I adopted the same mundane
>haircut throughout most of my school. But I do wear makeup on occasion
>to parties and dances, however rare they are.
If you are as socially inept as one might guess from your writing,
they must be pretty rare. Plus I imagine the whole breeding thing
must interfere with having a life.
> I wear a trenchcoat regularly, but so do news reporters,
And I should care because...? There is nothing inherently goth in
trenchcoats.
>sometimes Dave Matthews band, and that Airtouch Cellular guy (he's
>chizz.) I like it partially because of the large and numerous (5)
>sometimes concealed pockets.
So you're a druggie?
> I don't have any piercings or tatoos, and I don't wear much
>jewelry. I don't wear fishnets, but I might.
I'm not the queen of Uzbekistan, but one day, I might be...
> However I do so love nighttime and cloudy days, and have such an
>aversion to the sun I only go out in it if I sorta have to.
There you go confusing goths and vampires. Nothing in the goth
manifesto says you must hate the sun. It's a good idea to wear
sunblock to keep that cute pasty-white complexion, or at least prevent
skin cancer, but it's not a rule.
All it takes to be a goth is to wear black and like goth music. You,
dear sir, don't appear to do either. Ergo, not goth. No matter how
open you might be to the idea of wearing fishnets.
> I probably left out a lot of stuff, but my mind scatters when I
>start to write.
It's a good thing you did, because that was extremely tedious as it
was.
}..{
Agnieszka
fuzzy pink satan
<mutil...@fuzzypinksatan.com> fpevooyrq onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>i hate it when people can't spell "tattoo" correctly.
also, while making sure that "tatoo" wasn't a valid spelling,
i ran across this:
Tatou \Ta*tou"\, n. [Cf. Tatouay.] (Zo["o]l.) The giant armadillo
(Priodontes gigas) of tropical South America. It becomes nearly five
feet long including the tail. It is noted for its burrowing powers,
feeds largely upon dead animals, and sometimes invades human graves.
keen!
Fireraven9
>(Priodontes gigas) of tropical South America. It becomes nearly five
>feet long including the tail. It is noted for its burrowing powers,
>feeds largely upon dead animals, and sometimes invades human graves.
>
>keen!
>
>carrie
>
ravenous Tatou.
Fireraven9
"Zombies fear my tofu" DW
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GothicGardeners
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GardeninginNewMexicoandColorado
Damion
> On 12 Oct 2001 22:52:53 -0700, vir...@hotmail.com (Damion) wrote:
> No. In fact, it sounds like you're white trash. Or a troll. Probably
> a troll.
> It made you feel like you had some kind of purpose or goal in life.
> Now you realize how meaningless and stupid your life is. You are
> incapable of generating your own meaning, and must get it simply by
> opposing someone else's.
I always knew how meaningless my life was, just now I understand
how much it doesn't matter. No one else seems to care, anyway.
> You are like the Vandals who, seeing the Roman mosaics, shattered
> them, but who could never do anything as beautiful themselves.
I wish I could make the connection.
> How pathetic that your main meaning in life came from disobeying
> arbitrary rules arbitrarily. It would be one thing if you understood
> the stystem under the rules and wished to flaunt that. But you object
> merely to the exoteric manifestation.
Main meaning? I have no meaning in life but to live and learn.
The fact is I wasn't going around disobeying rules just because they
were there, but if a rule interfered with me and it had no motive, I
sure wasn't going to obey it.
Whatever system under the rules there was is lost in the minds of
the authorities. The only system they know is making rules against
things they don't like and trying to enforce them.
> > Its amazing how many things the
> >authorities in school get away with because nobody does anything about
> >it. They fuck it all to Hell, those school authorities. They aren't
> >even consistent in their motives. For one thing they will claim they
> >are trying to prepare the students for adult life, but then they turn
> >around and give them childish privilages. Anyone could tell they have
> >different motives.
>
> So what are their motives? What are your motives? Why do you object to
> them so much?
Who knows. My motives were superficial (I never really believed I
had a real purpose.) And I only object to them because I don't like
them, not because I think I matter.
> I have a hard time believing that you are not still in high school.
> You sound really immature.
Even if I do, you sound less mature than you indirectly claim to
be.
> > But I only have about exactly 13 years until my first kid gets
> >into jr high. Heheh. We're gonna give the schools Hell. Mwahahaha.
> >Being an adult has its advantages.
>
> Dear god, who let you breed?
>
> And is that what the focus of your life is going to be? To wait 13
> years until your genetic spew enters high school so you can re-live
> those glory years of rebelling agains the Man?
Far from it. I never had any glory-years, but if my kids are ever
betrayed by the rules like I was I'm going to
> High School is a pale shadow of what the Man can do (to you). If
> you're must rebel, why not choose something that actually matters?
Does it not matter if people try to impose authority over me?
I'll 'rebel' against what matters when it comes to me.
It seems that you are more obsessed with me rebelling than I am
obsessed with me rebelling.
> > I used to have an all-black wardrobe,
>
> So?
I didn't say it meant anything.
> As long as you wear black, what? Monekys will not fly out of your ass?
> You failed to complete the sentence.
As long as I wear black I won't feel like it was just a passing
fad, which it may well have been.
> >Funny I wear so much black when blue is my favorite color.
>
> No, it's not funny. It's not even vaguely interesting. Thanks for
> sharing. Now shut up.
Thanks for pointing that out. I would never have noticed how
inanely stupid I was for saying anything without you telling me.
Please, teach me more.*
(*sarcasm tag because you don't seem to be keen on spotting it.)
> > So I don't have any mental depression conditions and I'm seeing a
> >shrink for no apparent reason. I was only suicidal for a few months
> >and my grades have improved gradually. I don't think I need her for
> >any obvious reasons, and most definitely not for psychological
> >disorders.
>
> I would say that being suicidal is a pretty apparent reason. There
> you go again seeing only the manifestations but not examining the
> underlying causes. When one is "suicidal for a few months" one tends
> to have underlying psychological problems. Hence, you probably do.
> But I could have told you that from the rebelling against high school
> with your offspring comment.
I already discovered the underlying psychological reason for my
suicidal period. In fact that's how I brought myself out of it. I was
simply loosing perspective, and I fixed that.
> > I don't write poetry, and I don't particularly like much of the
> >music associated with goth.
>
> I reiterate. You Are Not A Goth.
I reiterate: I never said I was.
> >I like Oingo Boingo.
>
> A shred of taste among all the drivel. But Oingo Boingo isn't goth.
I sense an underlying bias in your insults now. I didn't say or
think Oingo Boingo was goth, and I didn't think that made me goth
either. And, because you obviously didn't sense my sarcasm, the entire
point of that statement and many others in my post was to suggest that
I /probably wasn't/ goth.
> > I've never worn makeup to school, but I dyed my hair black once
> >just for kicks.
>
> How subversive of you..
I was testing the color out.
> >Its still growing out. I adopted the same mundane
> >haircut throughout most of my school. But I do wear makeup on occasion
> >to parties and dances, however rare they are.
>
> If you are as socially inept as one might guess from your writing,
> they must be pretty rare. Plus I imagine the whole breeding thing
> must interfere with having a life.
I never had a life. Sorry.
> > I wear a trenchcoat regularly, but so do news reporters,
>
> And I should care because...? There is nothing inherently goth in
> trenchcoats.
I never said there was, and I never said you should care.
> >sometimes Dave Matthews band, and that Airtouch Cellular guy (he's
> >chizz.) I like it partially because of the large and numerous (5)
> >sometimes concealed pockets.
>
> So you're a druggie?
Not to my knowledge.
> > I don't have any piercings or tatoos, and I don't wear much
> >jewelry. I don't wear fishnets, but I might.
>
> I'm not the queen of Uzbekistan, but one day, I might be...
I plan to live forever. So far so good.
> > However I do so love nighttime and cloudy days, and have such an
> >aversion to the sun I only go out in it if I sorta have to.
>
> There you go confusing goths and vampires. Nothing in the goth
> manifesto says you must hate the sun. It's a good idea to wear
> sunblock to keep that cute pasty-white complexion, or at least prevent
> skin cancer, but it's not a rule.
I'm not confusing goths with vampires, and I wasn't suggesting
that my aversion meant I was goth /or/ vampire. Don't make me post "Am
I a Vampire?" :P*
(*I hope you notice my smiley, because you seem to be the kind of
person who would miss it and take me seriously.)
> All it takes to be a goth is to wear black and like goth music.
Is that true? And here I am thinking it is more envolved. Silly
me.
> You, dear sir, don't appear to do either. Ergo, not goth. No matter how
> open you might be to the idea of wearing fishnets.
Good. Now I can tell people I'm not.
> > I probably left out a lot of stuff, but my mind scatters when I
> >start to write.
>
> It's a good thing you did, because that was extremely tedious as it
> was.
You didn't have to read it, silly :P
I would join your pathetic game of insults, but I realize that
you only say most of these things because you don't know me as closely
as you pretend you do.
And in case no one noticed, most of the presentations in my
original post were meant to suggest that I'm probably not goth.
A.K.
<snip>
>> I reiterate. You Are Not A Goth.
>
> I reiterate: I never said I was.
>
<snip>
> I sense an underlying bias in your insults now. I didn't say or
>think Oingo Boingo was goth, and I didn't think that made me goth
>either. And, because you obviously didn't sense my sarcasm, the entire
>point of that statement and many others in my post was to suggest that
>I /probably wasn't/ goth.
<snp>
> I'm not confusing goths with vampires, and I wasn't suggesting
>that my aversion meant I was goth /or/ vampire. Don't make me post "Am
>I a Vampire?" :P*
>
>(*I hope you notice my smiley, because you seem to be the kind of
>person who would miss it and take me seriously.)
No, I woldn't miss it. I'm the kind of person who likes to be bitchy
to newbies, but I don't miss smileys. Anyway.
>> All it takes to be a goth is to wear black and like goth music.
>
> Is that true? And here I am thinking it is more envolved. Silly
>me.
Yes. Really. I am not shitting you at all.
Some people will disagree with me and say all kind so stuff about how
you have to be deep and dark and shit.
But really that is not it.
Goth is not a lifestyle. It is not a "preception of the world". It
is music and fashion.
We (goths) can hope and say and pretend it's otherwise, but really it
just comes down to music and fashion in the end.
>> You, dear sir, don't appear to do either. Ergo, not goth. No matter how
>> open you might be to the idea of wearing fishnets.
>
> Good. Now I can tell people I'm not.
Good.
> And in case no one noticed, most of the presentations in my
>original post were meant to suggest that I'm probably not goth.
This and all the other things I have not snipped lead me to my final
question:
Why the hell are you here, posting on a gothic newsgroup? Really?
And with a subject line like "Am I gothic"?
That is all.
}..{
Agnieszka (feeling more mellow this evening)
Joe Brenner
>On 15 Oct 2001 20:18:21 -0700, vir...@hotmail.com (Damion) wrote:
>>> All it takes to be a goth is to wear black and like goth music.
>> Is that true? And here I am thinking it is more
>> envolved. Silly me.
That's involved. (Or maybe evolved?) But yes, it's more
involved than that. Ask anyone, and they'll tell you that.
Except for "A.K.":
>Some people will disagree with me and say all kind so stuff
>about how you have to be deep and dark and shit.
Uh, oh. You admitted that you're not the voice of god.
Minus 1 point.
>But really that is not it.
>Goth is not a lifestyle. It is not a "preception of the
>world". It is music and fashion.
>We (goths) can hope and say and pretend it's otherwise, but
>really it just comes down to music and fashion in the end.
Oh so that's all. Mere music and fashion. Good thing that
has nothing to do with lifestyles or perceptions or any of
that kind of heavy shit.
kest
>>> All it takes to be a goth is to wear black and like goth music.
>>
>> Is that true? And here I am thinking it is more envolved. Silly
>>me.
>
>Yes. Really. I am not shitting you at all.
>
Actually, it doesn't even take that much.
You know, this question is clearly covered in the mythological FAQ. You
know, the one that doesn't exist but we all think it does. In that FAQ
that doesn't exist, I'm pretty sure it says that Goth, as a category,
doesn't really exist. The goth that can be spoken is not the eternal goth.
The only true goths insist on their notagothness. And so forth.
The whole scene, this newsgroup included, is really just one big joke, of
the cosmic kind.
k, being weird tonight
--
Sound and Fury [TM]
zcatcurious
> The goth that can be spoken is not the eternal goth.
are you sure? i thought a few people around here were starting to
appear eternal, or at least interminable...
;P
A.K.
wrote:
>ak...@nyu.edu (A.K.) writes:
>
>>On 15 Oct 2001 20:18:21 -0700, vir...@hotmail.com (Damion) wrote:
>
>>>> All it takes to be a goth is to wear black and like goth music.
>
>>> Is that true? And here I am thinking it is more
>>> envolved. Silly me.
>
>That's involved. (Or maybe evolved?) But yes, it's more
>involved than that. Ask anyone, and they'll tell you that.
>Except for "A.K.":
Agnieszka to you buddy :-)
Anyway, I really think that's the key to it. The other goth stuff is
all an accident. It all just sot of came together.
But the essence, the root, is music and fashion.
The reason I insist on this is as follows: Many people insist on
calling themselves goth just because they like spooky things or write
bad poetry or are suicidal.
To me that's like having a bucket of icing and calling it "cake".
Music and fashion are the "cake". The other stuff is icing. The cake
is not as good with out the icing, but if I have to chose one, and in
additon choose one that's easier to explain, I will describe the cake
part.
Before this metaphor gets out of hand.
On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:13:00 GMT, ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org (kest)
wrote:
>doesn't really exist. The goth that can be spoken is not the eternal goth.
>The only true goths insist on their notagothness. And so forth.
This is also true.
But if you start out being notagoth you are simply not a goth.
Only if you start out goth, and then deny it, are you notagoth and
thefore, even more goth. Oi.
A sensible art teacher first teaches to draw things as they are, and
only after to break from the form and draw abstractly.
It is similarly with goth. Before you can become a notagoth you must
master the basics of goth.
And someone who doesn't listen to goth music and doesn't wear goth
clothing has not mastered the basics.
Furthermore, going bakc to the orginal writer (not Kest)
>Oh so that's all. Mere music and fashion. Good thing that
>has nothing to do with lifestyles or perceptions or any of
>that kind of heavy shit.
Yes that is all,l and no, it doesn't. These things sometimes go along
with it, but they are not it. Sometimes trees have little fences
around them so dogs don't pee on them. But this is not essential to
the trees tree-ness. Goths no more need to be deep (or intelligent, or
interesting, or spooky) than trees need to have a little fence around
them.
If my net dick is not big enough for your esteemed self, I refer you
to EdVamp:
"There is no gothic philosophy, no gothic beliefs, no gothic secret
fucking handshake."
}..{
Agnieszka
Damion
> question:
>
> Why the hell are you here, posting on a gothic newsgroup? Really?
>
> And with a subject line like "Am I gothic"?
Nothing, really. Speaking of the subject line "Am I Gothic?": now
that the subject has been resolved, I'm going to drop it, and if
anyone decides to pick it back up, I will track them down with my
nonexistant hacking skills and shoot them with my nonexistant sniper
rifle..... er I mean I'll ignore them.
> }..{
> Agnieszka (feeling more mellow this evening)
Thank goodness.
A.K.
>> This and all the other things I have not snipped lead me to my final
>> question:
>>
>> Why the hell are you here, posting on a gothic newsgroup? Really?
>>
>> And with a subject line like "Am I gothic"?
>
> Nothing, really. Speaking of the subject line "Am I Gothic?": now
>that the subject has been resolved, I'm going to drop it, and if
>anyone decides to pick it back up, I will track them down with my
>nonexistant hacking skills and shoot them with my nonexistant sniper
>rifle..... er I mean I'll ignore them.
Very good then. If you write interesting things, I'll probably end up
forgetting the whole 'not a goth' problem anyway.
>> Agnieszka (feeling more mellow this evening)
>
> Thank goodness.
No, thank laziness.
You caught me in a bad mood with a pet peeve subject. But you didn't
flame back so what fun is it poking you?
Anyway.
}..{
Agnieszka
Jennie
>Well I'm not really asking. I'm just putting that there to pretend I
>have a reason to post.
It's a dangerous subject header for a delurk; you can see how
much negative attention you've attracted (some of which is also due to the
content of your post, but it's likely that your detractors wouldn't have
got that far if you'd used a more obscure header). It may make people
wonder if they are expected to get out the dulux gloss black and paint you
up until you at least look spooky. ;)
So, what's your _real_ reason to post? What made you want to
talk to people here?
> I'm out of dreaded high-school early and I'm already missing it.
So did you have your kid while you were still in school? Sounds
like hard work. Bear in mind that many parents of young children look back
on _whatever_ they were doing before with longing. High school may suck,
but at least you can sleep through it, eh? ;)
>I must be crazy to think that way. Sure I hated school, but there was
>something I liked about it.
I can still plainly remember getting told that I'd feel like
that when I got older. "You'll think of these as the best years of your
life." Maybe they expected me to grow older and take lots of hard drugs
like the other kids in the area. <shrug> I still think of school as one
of the ugliest things I had to put up with, although there's been plenty
of shit since then.
>It must have been the self-expression thing people are always talking
>about. Plus I miss being able to 'rebel'.
See, self expression is something which school 'permits' up to
a point, and then you get the shit kicked out of you for it. Prejudice and
violence often have a free hand in a school environment. I've always found
it much easier being an adult. Sure, there are still groups of people out
there who would delight in attacking me for my appearance, my politics, my
sexuality, or whatever, but nothing forces me to associate with them.
Maybe that's the difference between people who want to rebel
and people who simply want to exist (and, preferably, have similar people
exist also) without having to put on a sort of disguise all the time (by
which I don't mean not wearing black - that's a side issue - I mean
pretending to be stupid, pretending to be entertained by the same
obnoxious activities (like beating up _other_ people), etc.) I can't
imagine having the time and energy spare to go out _looking_ for conflict.
>even consistent in their motives. For one thing they will claim they
>are trying to prepare the students for adult life, but then they turn
>around and give them childish privilages.
Preparing people for adult life should surely mean just that:
_preparing_ them, not forcing them the whole way into it immediately.
Still, I think that "in a few years, other people will treat
you like shit" is a pretty poor excuse for treating people like shit in
any circumstances. It's like people who say "life's not fair" as an excuse
for their personal perpetuation of unfairness. With young people
especially, I think it discourages useful forms of resistance (such as
having the will to seek out a job where one isn't treated so badly).
> I used to have an all-black wardrobe, but now I somehow mixed
>some blue jeans into there, and some grey and white shirts.
Offhand, I can't think of anyone here who has an entirely black
wardrobe. Neither can I think of anyone who would consider such a thing to
be of great significance. What I wonder about here is whether it is of
significance to _you_, since you chose to raise it. Do you think that the
change in your wardrobe represents a change in your personality?
>Funny I wear so much black when blue is my favorite color.
Favourite things don't always flatter us. That's a bad reason
for wearing anything.
> So I don't have any mental depression conditions and I'm seeing a
>shrink for no apparent reason. I was only suicidal for a few months
>and my grades have improved gradually. I don't think I need her for
>any obvious reasons, and most definitely not for psychological
>disorders.
So why _are_ you seeing her? Out of habit? Are you paying her
money for that? Do you think that ceasing to see her would have a negative
impact on your life?
> I don't have any piercings or tatoos, and I don't wear much
>jewelry. I don't wear fishnets, but I might.
There is no uniform. You do realise that, right? We will not
make you wear a shirt and little peaked cap to make you look identical to
the rest of us. I am sorry; we are not the rebellion you are looking for.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
"I read to myself 'The chance of a lifetime to see new horizons.'"
Joe Brenner
>On 16 Oct 2001 05:27:11 GMT, do...@kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
>wrote:
>>ak...@nyu.edu (A.K.) writes:
>>
>>>On 15 Oct 2001 20:18:21 -0700, vir...@hotmail.com (Damion) wrote:
>>
>>>>> All it takes to be a goth is to wear black and like goth music.
>>
>>>> Is that true? And here I am thinking it is more
>>>> envolved. Silly me.
>>
>>That's involved. (Or maybe evolved?) But yes, it's more
>>involved than that. Ask anyone, and they'll tell you that.
>>Except for "A.K.":
>Agnieszka to you buddy :-)
>Anyway, I really think that's the key to it. The other goth stuff is
>all an accident. It all just sot of came together.
I was going to silently change "sot" to "sort", but I kind
of like "sot" better.
Anyway, you don't think it's possible it means something
when stuff just "comes together"?
What's the "correct" way for cultures to develop?
>But the essence, the root, is music and fashion.
'Sokay. But not exactly what you were saying, no?
>The reason I insist on this is as follows: Many people insist on
>calling themselves goth just because they like spooky things or write
>bad poetry or are suicidal.
And many such people *deny* that they're goths despite
obvious symptoms, and those people strike me as being much
sillier.
>To me that's like having a bucket of icing and calling it "cake".
>Music and fashion are the "cake". The other stuff is icing. The cake
>is not as good with out the icing, but if I have to chose one, and in
>additon choose one that's easier to explain, I will describe the cake
>part.
>Before this metaphor gets out of hand.
Sorry, I'm already imagining giving up on this argument and
inviting everyone to dive into tubs full of icing.
>A sensible art teacher first teaches to draw things as they are, and
>only after to break from the form and draw abstractly.
Um. Sensible. Things as they are. Abstractions. Um....
>Furthermore, going bakc to the orginal writer (not Kest)
Ah, the Original Writer. At last I am recognized.
>>Oh so that's all. Mere music and fashion. Good thing that
>>has nothing to do with lifestyles or perceptions or any of
>>that kind of heavy shit.
>Yes that is all,l and no, it doesn't. These things sometimes go along
>with it, but they are not it. Sometimes trees have little fences
>around them so dogs don't pee on them. But this is not essential to
>the trees tree-ness. Goths no more need to be deep (or intelligent, or
>interesting, or spooky) than trees need to have a little fence around
>them.
Well, maybe you've got something here. But watch where you
point that reductionism, it might go off.
>If my net dick is not big enough for your esteemed self, I refer you
>to EdVamp:
>"There is no gothic philosophy, no gothic beliefs, no gothic secret
>fucking handshake."
Well sure, that's what he *says*.
Joe Brenner
> I can still plainly remember getting told that
>I'd feel like that when I got older. "You'll think of these
>as the best years of your life." Maybe they expected me to
>grow older and take lots of hard drugs like the other kids
>in the area. <shrug> I still think of school as one of the
>ugliest things I had to put up with, although there's been
>plenty of shit since then.
Well personally, I think "Junior High School, Long Island"
is another name for hell. You're defenses aren't quite in
place yet, and they lock you up with a bunch of unsocialized
animals that haven't yet learned to conceal how viciously
cruel they are.
I also did not enjoy listening to teachers lecture about
"freedom" when we all were pretty clearly serving 10 year
sentences without cause.
> Maybe that's the difference between people who
>want to rebel and people who simply want to exist (and,
>preferably, have similar people exist also) without having
>to put on a sort of disguise all the time (by which I don't
>mean not wearing black - that's a side issue - I mean
>pretending to be stupid, pretending to be entertained by
>the same obnoxious activities (like beating up _other_
>people), etc.) I can't imagine having the time and energy
>spare to go out _looking_ for conflict.
I spent most of my school years keeping my head down, and
getting out of there as quickly as possible so I could go
home and read and listen to music.
In retrospect, I think I missed a lot of excellent
opportunities to cause trouble. The position that teachers
are placed in is so obviously untenable, it wouldn't be hard
for a relatively bright kid to put them through hell just by
raising your hand a lot and asking awkward questions.
A friend of mine was telling me that she felt the same after
getting out of high school. She was taking a bunch of art
classes, and regrets not turning in projects like a canvas
covered with penises dangling off of it.
But on the other hand, maybe the poor teachers don't really
deserve the abuse, right?
> Preparing people for adult life should surely mean just that:
>_preparing_ them, not forcing them the whole way into it immediately.
> Still, I think that "in a few years, other people will treat
>you like shit" is a pretty poor excuse for treating people like shit in
>any circumstances. It's like people who say "life's not fair" as an excuse
>for their personal perpetuation of unfairness. With young people
>especially, I think it discourages useful forms of resistance (such as
>having the will to seek out a job where one isn't treated so badly).
It's always seemed to me that "teaching someone to think for
themselves" is a near impossible, contradictory task.
If you do a good job, you're setting yourself up as a
benevolent authority figure, and the student, no matter how
sincerely motivated, is fundamentally only going to be
putting on a show for you.
In that light, it could be that the right thing to do is to
be a capricious, arbitrary authority figure. You need to put
the student in a bind where the only right thing to do is to
"rebel" on some level, to strike out on their own without
guidance.
So there may be an accidental method in the madness of the
school system (Koan High?).
> Offhand, I can't think of anyone here who has an
>entirely black wardrobe.
Well, maybe only 90% for me. I also do murky greens and
purple/maroon.
>Neither can I think of anyone who would consider such a
>thing to be of great significance.
It does mean something though. I feel like I'm living in a
time and a place where people have more freedom to look like
anything they want than at any time in history. So what's
with all the gap clones? You can say that they're just
being practical/lazy, but it's not exactly difficult to get
dressed in the morning when most of your clothes are solid
black.
Joe Brenner
>> This and all the other things I have not snipped lead me to my final
>> question:
>>
>> Why the hell are you here, posting on a gothic newsgroup? Really?
>>
>> And with a subject line like "Am I gothic"?
> Nothing, really. Speaking of the subject line "Am I Gothic?": now
>that the subject has been resolved, I'm going to drop it,
I hereby propose that from this day forward, all subject
lines in alt.gothic shall be of the form "Is X gothic?".
Is Mesh in Toronto gothic?
Is (playlist) Hexentanz 10.12.01 (milw) gothic?
Is Schwarze Sonne gothic?
Is Well, okay... gothic?
Is Am I gothic? gothic?
Tiny Human Ferret
Oh boy... I get to have a nice rant, maybe! Comments interspersed...
"A.K." wrote:
>
> On 16 Oct 2001 05:27:11 GMT, do...@kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner)
> wrote:
>
> >ak...@nyu.edu (A.K.) writes:
> >
> >>On 15 Oct 2001 20:18:21 -0700, vir...@hotmail.com (Damion) wrote:
> >
> >>>> All it takes to be a goth is to wear black and like goth music.
> >
> >>> Is that true? And here I am thinking it is more
> >>> envolved. Silly me.
> >
> >That's involved. (Or maybe evolved?) But yes, it's more
> >involved than that. Ask anyone, and they'll tell you that.
> >Except for "A.K.":
>
> Agnieszka to you buddy :-)
>
> Anyway, I really think that's the key to it. The other goth stuff is
> all an accident. It all just sot of came together.
>
> But the essence, the root, is music and fashion.
Bah! Humbug!
Maybe that's the essence of "Goth" but it's hardly the essence of "Gothic"!
"Gothic", especially as regards the news:alt.gothic newsgroup, is "all
things mournful and dark".
Spooky? Gloomy? Fascinated by the eternal questions such as "what happens to
our personalities or spirit after death?", "which came first, essence or
existence, and does this mean I should be cremated or buried or set adrift
on a rowboat with all of my earthly possession and if I'm married should my
wife light me afire as she sets me adrift, or be lit on fire as she's set
adrift with me?", or, "how the hell am I going to get cigarette money after
spending the rent on heroin and ephedrine?" -- these are some of the things
that are Gothic, rather than merely being Goth.
>
> The reason I insist on this is as follows: Many people insist on
> calling themselves goth just because they like spooky things or write
> bad poetry or are suicidal.
>
> To me that's like having a bucket of icing and calling it "cake".
>
> Music and fashion are the "cake". The other stuff is icing. The cake
> is not as good with out the icing, but if I have to chose one, and in
> additon choose one that's easier to explain, I will describe the cake
> part.
>
> Before this metaphor gets out of hand.
But you see, you've got it precisely backwards. You're confusing what is
eternal, what existed in the ages before VNV Nation came along -- or even
before Siouxsie sang about being buried in volcanic ash along with the rest
of your civilization -- with what is really awesomely ephemeral. The music?
Well, considering that half of the music amounts to the auditory element of
the fashion defining a rapidly mutating subculture, the only thing that's
more ephemeral than the music is the fashion.
The fashion is, other than a general -- in the most loose sense -- tendency
towards the somber, highly variable. There are the Somber Gothic People, and
on the other extreme, there are those I'd call the Death Mockers. The Somber
Gothic People IMHO tend to be really very somber and often thoughtful people
who often have a great deal of personal depth and experience of the less
cheerful side of life. The "Death Mockers" IMHO comprise one group o people
making a high art out of relentlessly juxtaposing images iconic of the
trappings of death and those images suggesting of the essentials of life.
For instance, a very fetching dance done in black lingerie and with a
madwoman's hair and bangles entice the unprepared observer into a reverie
from which emerge conflicting emotions and unexpected thoughts delving into
the details of the cycle of birth, school, adulthood and death, and how all
of those interrelate with each of the other of those elements, and with
other persons expressing those elements, and with life and culture itself.
In this last case, properly done, indeed -- the art is in the fashion and
the cascade of unconscious reflections engendered. But all too commonly,
this fashion art isn't properly done -- or more likely, it's done merely as
fashion and not as art because the people wearing the costume "just don't
get the idea". It's people declaring a subcultural affiliation, rather than
being a walking piece of art. It's the rare and wonderful "goth" or "death
mocker" who actually understands this at this level; not just to be artful,
not just to be art, but to be art that _means something_ and _forces people
to understand it_.
By contrast, often the Somber Gothic People can write a short piece and do
everything to your stream of consciousness that the best of the Death
Mockers can do... and seemingly with less effort, and you won't have
troubles getting the lipstick out of your collar in the morning.
>
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:13:00 GMT, ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org (kest)
> wrote:
> >doesn't really exist. The goth that can be spoken is not the eternal goth.
> >The only true goths insist on their notagothness. And so forth.
>
> This is also true.
>
> But if you start out being notagoth you are simply not a goth.
>
> Only if you start out goth, and then deny it, are you notagoth and
> thefore, even more goth. Oi.
>
> A sensible art teacher first teaches to draw things as they are, and
> only after to break from the form and draw abstractly.
>
> It is similarly with goth. Before you can become a notagoth you must
> master the basics of goth.
>
> And someone who doesn't listen to goth music and doesn't wear goth
> clothing has not mastered the basics.
I agree with you absolutely up until that last statement.
The Gothic subculture is inherently Goth. However, Goth is hardly inevitably
Gothic. Goth as a subculture is a subset of Gothic sensibilities, I do
believe. You don't have to be a fashion victim of the funky western
civilization in order to be Gothic As Fuck. I've met people who just fell
off of the turnip wagon that dragged them here from Rwanda who were a
thousand times more Gothic, and in broad daylight, than the most overdressed
whimpering suburban white boy with a jillion CDs from people nobody _should_
have heard-of. These latter dolts might have the nicest damned boots, but
they really need to go listen to _Holiday in Cambodia_ with all knobs turned
completely clockwise; people who have had to hide within piles of corpses
for days in order to survive, are inherently Way More Gothic than them.
I once corresponded with a nice friendly coroner. I asked her what she
thought about Goths and the Gothic mystique, and she said something to the
effect that one night she took lunch at a nearby Goth bar, and had some gal
with fangs and a cape and corset wander by, look her up and down, and
actually sniff and dismiss her. The point is, here is an immensely educated
and very literate person of extreme talent, standing there in the bar with
the blood of the horribly murdered all over her shoes, and she's just been
_dismissed_ by a _Party Girl_.
If there's anything I really have against what Goth has become since someone
hijacked our (1980s) scene and crashed it into a few skyscrapers and gave
bastard birth to the present RivetGoth Scene, it's this last bit: people who
are genuinely Gothic As Fuck and may even be way beyond that, are getting
dismissed by Party Girls.
If "Goth" is just about being a Party Girl, feh. Sorry, I'll stick to being
NotAGoth. But I'll always be Gothic.
>
> Furthermore, going bakc to the orginal writer (not Kest)
>
> >Oh so that's all. Mere music and fashion. Good thing that
> >has nothing to do with lifestyles or perceptions or any of
> >that kind of heavy shit.
>
> Yes that is all,l and no, it doesn't. These things sometimes go along
> with it, but they are not it. Sometimes trees have little fences
> around them so dogs don't pee on them. But this is not essential to
> the trees tree-ness. Goths no more need to be deep (or intelligent, or
> interesting, or spooky) than trees need to have a little fence around
> them.
You hate me, right? You're trying to terrorize me?
You're pretty much describing, actually, that little fences and dogpiss are
what make someone Gothic, and the tree (intelligence, spooky darkness woo
etc) is just windowdressing and not what makes a tree.
>
> If my net dick is not big enough for your esteemed self, I refer you
> to EdVamp:
>
> "There is no gothic philosophy, no gothic beliefs, no gothic secret
> fucking handshake."
But you're soooo wrong.
Allow me to prove that we do to have a philosophy, beliefs, and handshake
with two words:
"Nice Boots."
>
> }..{
> Agnieszka
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow. <-----> http://earthops.net/klaatu/
A.K.
<kla...@clark.net> wrote:
>
>Oh boy... I get to have a nice rant, maybe! Comments interspersed...
Yay, back and forth rant time.
>"A.K." wrote:
>>
>Bah! Humbug!
>
>Maybe that's the essence of "Goth" but it's hardly the essence of "Gothic"!
Aw, you just broke my whole rant.
You are speaking of "gothic" I am speaking of "goth".
>"Gothic", especially as regards the news:alt.gothic newsgroup, is "all
>things mournful and dark".
And all along I've been under the impression that alt.gothic was the
newsgroup for goths. Not "gothics". Oi. I wonder often why this
newsgroup is called alt.gothic instead of alt.goth . The FAQ seems to
be much more about goth than it about gothic, and seems to conflate
the two terms, only perpetuating the discussion.
>Spooky? Gloomy? Fascinated by the eternal questions such as "what happens to
>our personalities or spirit after death?", "which came first, essence or
>existence, and does this mean I should be cremated or buried or set adrift
>on a rowboat with all of my earthly possession and if I'm married should my
>wife light me afire as she sets me adrift, or be lit on fire as she's set
>adrift with me?", or, "how the hell am I going to get cigarette money after
>spending the rent on heroin and ephedrine?" -- these are some of the things
>that are Gothic, rather than merely being Goth.
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. These things are not goth.
>> The reason I insist on this is as follows: Many people insist on
>> calling themselves goth just because they like spooky things or write
>> bad poetry or are suicidal.
>>
>> To me that's like having a bucket of icing and calling it "cake".
>>
>> Music and fashion are the "cake". The other stuff is icing. The cake
>> is not as good with out the icing, but if I have to chose one, and in
>> additon choose one that's easier to explain, I will describe the cake
>> part.
>>
>> Before this metaphor gets out of hand.
>
>But you see, you've got it precisely backwards. You're confusing what is
>eternal, what existed in the ages before VNV Nation came along -- or even
>before Siouxsie sang about being buried in volcanic ash along with the rest
>of your civilization -- with what is really awesomely ephemeral. The music?
>Well, considering that half of the music amounts to the auditory element of
>the fashion defining a rapidly mutating subculture, the only thing that's
>more ephemeral than the music is the fashion.
If I were talking about "gothickness" that irascable and difficult to
pin down thing, maybe you'd be right.
But I am speaking of goth.
Though at this point I admit that the person who started all this
asked "Am I gothic". However, from the context of his post (focusing
on music and fashion) I infered that he probably actually meant "am I
goth", doing the same sort of goth/gothic conflation which occurst in
the FAQ.
<snip>
>> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:13:00 GMT, ke...@spamfree.nettrip.org (kest)
>> wrote:
>> >doesn't really exist. The goth that can be spoken is not the eternal goth.
>> >The only true goths insist on their notagothness. And so forth.
>>
>> This is also true.
>>
>> But if you start out being notagoth you are simply not a goth.
>>
>> Only if you start out goth, and then deny it, are you notagoth and
>> thefore, even more goth. Oi.
>>
>> A sensible art teacher first teaches to draw things as they are, and
>> only after to break from the form and draw abstractly.
>>
>> It is similarly with goth. Before you can become a notagoth you must
>> master the basics of goth.
>>
>> And someone who doesn't listen to goth music and doesn't wear goth
>> clothing has not mastered the basics.
>
>I agree with you absolutely up until that last statement.
>
>The Gothic subculture is inherently Goth.
Well, it seems that it is not, judging from the many spooky type I've
met who couldn't give a rat's ass about Joy Division or Bauhaus et
all.
>However, Goth is hardly inevitably
>Gothic.
I agree.
>Goth as a subculture is a subset of Gothic sensibilities, I do
>believe.
Weeeeell. I don't know. I wasn't there when goth was born but I
understand it had more to do with punk music and silly clothes than
any kind of Gothic sensibility.
Now things are somewhat different, but that deosn't mean I won't
continue being annoyed about it.
>You don't have to be a fashion victim of the funky western
>civilization in order to be Gothic As Fuck. I've met people who just fell
>off of the turnip wagon that dragged them here from Rwanda who were a
>thousand times more Gothic, and in broad daylight, than the most overdressed
>whimpering suburban white boy with a jillion CDs from people nobody _should_
>have heard-of.
Oh certainly possible. But as we can probably agree at this point,
goth and gothic are not quite the same thing.
<snip>
>I once corresponded with a nice friendly coroner. I asked her what she
>thought about Goths and the Gothic mystique, and she said something to the
>effect that one night she took lunch at a nearby Goth bar, and had some gal
>with fangs and a cape and corset wander by, look her up and down, and
>actually sniff and dismiss her. The point is, here is an immensely educated
>and very literate person of extreme talent, standing there in the bar with
>the blood of the horribly murdered all over her shoes, and she's just been
>_dismissed_ by a _Party Girl_.
For one that's funny and a great story.
But for two, that is an excellent examply of Gothic meets Goth. Goth
has way more to do with being a party girl than it does with being a
coroner. It's music and fashion, music and fashion.
<snip>
>If "Goth" is just about being a Party Girl, feh. Sorry, I'll stick to being
>NotAGoth. But I'll always be Gothic.
I think isn't just, but it is largely that.
>> Yes that is all,l and no, it doesn't. These things sometimes go along
>> with it, but they are not it. Sometimes trees have little fences
>> around them so dogs don't pee on them. But this is not essential to
>> the trees tree-ness. Goths no more need to be deep (or intelligent, or
>> interesting, or spooky) than trees need to have a little fence around
>> them.
>
>You hate me, right? You're trying to terrorize me?
Me and the CIA, man.
No, I'm just writing my opinion on this whole goth/gothic etc mess.
>You're pretty much describing, actually, that little fences and dogpiss are
>what make someone Gothic, and the tree (intelligence, spooky darkness woo
>etc) is just windowdressing and not what makes a tree.
Well, no I'm talking about what makes someone goth. I do not think
that being goth is cool or interesting or even good. It's actually
kind of dorky and silly. I don't think there's a much better chance
of finding interesting or intelligent people among goths than there is
among non-goths. They just seem to go to the same nightclubs as I do
so we end up hanging out together.
>Allow me to prove that we do to have a philosophy, beliefs, and handshake
>with two words:
>
>"Nice Boots."
But it's not essential. It is icing.
So from now on I'll just say I like post-punk and death rock music.
Goth seems to mean to many things to many people that is very
different than what it means to me.
}..{
Agnieszka
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:49:08 -0400, Tiny Human Ferret
> <kla...@clark.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Oh boy... I get to have a nice rant, maybe! Comments interspersed...
>
> Yay, back and forth rant time.
>
> >"A.K." wrote:
> >>
> >Bah! Humbug!
> >
> >Maybe that's the essence of "Goth" but it's hardly the essence of "Gothic"!
>
> Aw, you just broke my whole rant.
>
> You are speaking of "gothic" I am speaking of "goth".
Right right. But surely you've heard the rationale that the origin of the
word "Goth" was due to the fact that it's just terrible English to use an
adjective for a noun, as in "Oi, look mates, it's one of those Gothics!" --
there was a point in time when the adjective was really more applicable than
any noun... but the noun (misnomer, actually, see your Roman history, heh)
having come into use, I can only assume that the definition of "Goth" tended
to become more concrete.
>
> >"Gothic", especially as regards the news:alt.gothic newsgroup, is "all
> >things mournful and dark".
>
> And all along I've been under the impression that alt.gothic was the
> newsgroup for goths. Not "gothics". Oi. I wonder often why this
> newsgroup is called alt.gothic instead of alt.goth . The FAQ seems to
> be much more about goth than it about gothic, and seems to conflate
> the two terms, only perpetuating the discussion.
And this is me doing my "the FAQ isn't always entirely right especially
since it got hijacked" rant. And _that_ discussion has been going on
interminably for as long as I've been here, probably 1995-1997 or so there
was little question that the NG was for the Gothic... possibly most people
here used `tin` or somesuch text-based reader and the newsgroup comment line
definitely reads "all things dark and mournful". This was long before the
so-called "vampire wars" which led to most of the "I'm a sp00ky 400-YO
waampire from Pennsylvania" types being evicted to news:alt.culture.vampires
or news:alt.bitterness which acquired a lot of the merely Mopey people. From
about late 1997 onwards (IIRC) there was a massive culture war in here, with
AGSF in many cases becoming merely the enforcement arm of the Goth Ideology
Council. Aside from repelling a large numbers of actual trolls, there was
what seemed to be a concerted effort to repel anyone who wasn't clearly a
Goth, and many people who had been mostly Gothic were sent packing. Many of
those sent packing left over the issue of whether or not the FAQ had been
hijacked, or was being hijacked; a powerful sub-issue was whether or not
people who _were_ into the music but weren't into doing dress-up would be
allowed into clubs, extending the conforming pressures seen in
news:alt.gothic into the real world -- or perhaps real-world issues had
intruded forcefully into the newsgroup.
The long and short of it is that since the FAQ Wars, the NG is almost
exclusively about Goth, which I figure will last for a few years at best;
already Goth is being largely devoured by Industrial. What's left is
basically just what we used to call Freaks, more or less alternateens in
black and post-alternateens.
>
> >Spooky? Gloomy? Fascinated by the eternal questions such as "what happens to
> >our personalities or spirit after death?", "which came first, essence or
> >existence, and does this mean I should be cremated or buried or set adrift
> >on a rowboat with all of my earthly possession and if I'm married should my
> >wife light me afire as she sets me adrift, or be lit on fire as she's set
> >adrift with me?", or, "how the hell am I going to get cigarette money after
> >spending the rent on heroin and ephedrine?" -- these are some of the things
> >that are Gothic, rather than merely being Goth.
>
> Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. These things are not goth.
Actually, the last example is pretty emblematic of Goth, in some scenes at
least.
>
> >> The reason I insist on this is as follows: Many people insist on
> >> calling themselves goth just because they like spooky things or write
> >> bad poetry or are suicidal.
> >>
> >> To me that's like having a bucket of icing and calling it "cake".
> >>
> >> Music and fashion are the "cake". The other stuff is icing. The cake
> >> is not as good with out the icing, but if I have to chose one, and in
> >> additon choose one that's easier to explain, I will describe the cake
> >> part.
> >>
> >> Before this metaphor gets out of hand.
> >
> >But you see, you've got it precisely backwards. You're confusing what is
> >eternal, what existed in the ages before VNV Nation came along -- or even
> >before Siouxsie sang about being buried in volcanic ash along with the rest
> >of your civilization -- with what is really awesomely ephemeral. The music?
> >Well, considering that half of the music amounts to the auditory element of
> >the fashion defining a rapidly mutating subculture, the only thing that's
> >more ephemeral than the music is the fashion.
>
> If I were talking about "gothickness" that irascable and difficult to
> pin down thing, maybe you'd be right.
>
> But I am speaking of goth.
>
> Though at this point I admit that the person who started all this
> asked "Am I gothic". However, from the context of his post (focusing
> on music and fashion) I infered that he probably actually meant "am I
> goth", doing the same sort of goth/gothic conflation which occurst in
> the FAQ.
Right. Okay, look, a lot of Goths, especially the younger ones, are really
truly "Goths", and especially the Perkies are about as Gothic as a ham
sandwich at a sunny picnic. But quite a few "Goths" are "Goths" only because
that's the handiest label to attach to them. This is generally most true of
the Ancient Dinosaurs, many of us were possessed of Gothic sensibilities
back when the major division in the Youth Music scenes was whether or not
this new Punk Rock sucked worse than Disco and was Genesis or Toto any
better than Punk or Disco. I can't speak for the rest of the Ancients but
back at that time I was working as a rent-a-cop, sleeping by day and armed
in a black uniform at night, slinking around a mothballed factory hoping I
didn't get shot, and breathing the unlovely scents of things that had
crawled into the processes and died, praying to the nether gods that
something fun to listen to would come on the radio before Judgement Day
came. Now, it's open to discussion whether this is Gothic or just sad. But
for years after I left that job, I was working and playing at night,
generally slinking around in navy blue or black, seldom seeing the daylight,
listening to the awesomely odd and "afflicted by art" music of WHFS-FM. I
loved a good horror story or film-noir. When punk became actually
established in the US, I was to some degree on the scene, starting in
Houston in 1978 or so, less so back in the DC area until maybe 1984 or so.
But from then on until maybe 1992, I was around downtown and all dressed in
black, as were a fair amount of other people, but there wasn't any name for
us other than People In Black, though if any of us had been asked if we had
gothic sensibilities we'd almost certainly have said "yes". I never even
_heard_ such people commonly called "Goths" until maybe 1993 or so. But
evidently I'd been one for 15 or more years.
I expect many of the Ancients will tell you much the same in general,
details will vary.
For some, it might have been. Probably this is true of the folks who
eventually sorted out as Perkies. Lots of the people I knew was back when,
who eventually coalesced into what's became the "gothic scene" and is now
essentially the goth/industrial scene, they started out as people who liked
Punk Rock mostly because Disco Sucked and Commercial Rock sucked worse, or
they liked Punk because it was a part of the Local Music scene in the
cities. Personally I place the "Death of Rock and Roll" as being the 1982
Rolling Stones tour. At $35 a ticket _from the box office_ the whole
Commercial Rock fandom thing was dead and besides, the new young bands had
occasional skill and guaranteed energy.
But after a while, a lot of folks got really tired of some fuckwad in a
leather jacket screaming about "Anarchy Rules, Okay?" and
generally-speaking, Deathrock was the province of Ozzy Osbourne and his
clones. Alice Cooper had a brief impact on the scene but quickly faded.
Bands like Talking Heads occasionally popped in but the albums didn't get
much airplay, but they had some exquisite dark music such as "Wind in my
Heart, Dust in my Head", rather a prophetic tune considering the events of
9-11. About this time the New Romantics got fairly popular, and so did a lot
of bands that were either mostly or marginally the Dark Romantics. Bauhaus
had been around and so was Joy Division but probably the closest thing to
Gothic music was stuff by The Stranglers and Peter Murphy and even Phil
Collins had a few fairly dark numbers, and so did acts like the Hooters.
Bands like the Psychedelic Furs or English Beat put out thoughtful artful
stuff and even as Punk mostly was singing about anarchy and fighting and
blowing stuff up and being generally awfully tedious for something played so
loud and fast, the People In Black and the Darkside/Darkwave people were
gravitating to the so-called "Art Fag" music. So the Gothic Scene did emerge
mostly from Mainstream Punk (sic) but it wasn't about being silly, mostly,
it was more about indicating that you were alternative as fuck, but not some
stupid punk obsessed with violence, crime and street drugs.
>
> Now things are somewhat different, but that deosn't mean I won't
> continue being annoyed about it.
I think that is my new Mantra. Thanks. For different reasons than you might
have...
>
> >You don't have to be a fashion victim of the funky western
> >civilization in order to be Gothic As Fuck. I've met people who just fell
> >off of the turnip wagon that dragged them here from Rwanda who were a
> >thousand times more Gothic, and in broad daylight, than the most overdressed
> >whimpering suburban white boy with a jillion CDs from people nobody _should_
> >have heard-of.
>
> Oh certainly possible. But as we can probably agree at this point,
> goth and gothic are not quite the same thing.
>
> <snip>
> >I once corresponded with a nice friendly coroner. I asked her what she
> >thought about Goths and the Gothic mystique, and she said something to the
> >effect that one night she took lunch at a nearby Goth bar, and had some gal
> >with fangs and a cape and corset wander by, look her up and down, and
> >actually sniff and dismiss her. The point is, here is an immensely educated
> >and very literate person of extreme talent, standing there in the bar with
> >the blood of the horribly murdered all over her shoes, and she's just been
> >_dismissed_ by a _Party Girl_.
>
> For one that's funny and a great story.
>
> But for two, that is an excellent examply of Gothic meets Goth. Goth
> has way more to do with being a party girl than it does with being a
> coroner. It's music and fashion, music and fashion.
Which is why I spend a lot of time sitting at home drinking by myself and
playing MP3s rather than going to Industrial/Goth Nite(tm). Strangely
enough, about the only club scene I can stand at this point in time are
more-or-less Urban Biker Bars where I can throw five bucks in the jukebox
and listen to not one single doof-doof tune.
>
> <snip>
> >If "Goth" is just about being a Party Girl, feh. Sorry, I'll stick to being
> >NotAGoth. But I'll always be Gothic.
>
> I think isn't just, but it is largely that.
Clearly then, it's time for the same sort of subcultural abreaction that
caused Gothic to emerge as the New Romantics did, flinching from a clicheed
and repetitive banality as was then expressed by Punk.
>
> >> Yes that is all,l and no, it doesn't. These things sometimes go along
> >> with it, but they are not it. Sometimes trees have little fences
> >> around them so dogs don't pee on them. But this is not essential to
> >> the trees tree-ness. Goths no more need to be deep (or intelligent, or
> >> interesting, or spooky) than trees need to have a little fence around
> >> them.
> >
> >You hate me, right? You're trying to terrorize me?
>
> Me and the CIA, man.
>
> No, I'm just writing my opinion on this whole goth/gothic etc mess.
>
> >You're pretty much describing, actually, that little fences and dogpiss are
> >what make someone Gothic, and the tree (intelligence, spooky darkness woo
> >etc) is just windowdressing and not what makes a tree.
>
> Well, no I'm talking about what makes someone goth. I do not think
> that being goth is cool or interesting or even good. It's actually
> kind of dorky and silly. I don't think there's a much better chance
> of finding interesting or intelligent people among goths than there is
> among non-goths.
<fogey> It didn't _use_ to be that way, sniffle sob whimper... </geezing>
> They just seem to go to the same nightclubs as I do
> so we end up hanging out together.
>
> >Allow me to prove that we do to have a philosophy, beliefs, and handshake
> >with two words:
> >
> >"Nice Boots."
>
> But it's not essential. It is icing.
>
> So from now on I'll just say I like post-punk and death rock music.
> Goth seems to mean to many things to many people that is very
> different than what it means to me.
Actually this is probably good... maybe the definitions will drift and the
subbculture will drift... and hopefully some of that drift will be _away
from_ rather than towards ear-shattering doof-doof music with insipid
lyrics. Crap, give me Sisters of Mercy anyday, and save me lords of
darkness, from Apoptygma clones.
Jeremiah
> (Priodontes gigas) of tropical South America. It becomes nearly five
> feet long including the tail. It is noted for its burrowing powers,
> feeds largely upon dead animals, and sometimes invades human graves.
>
Now I want a Tatou tattoo :D
Madmiah
Jennie
>It's always seemed to me that "teaching someone to think for
>themselves" is a near impossible, contradictory task.
Well, yes and no. It's not something which can be done
directly. I do think, though, that most schools fail to teach pupils that
there can be different ways of approaching problems, that people can hold
different points of view for which they might all be able to offer some
ethical justification, and so forth. It seems to me unnecesssary (though
quite probably politically convenient) that so many kids come away from
school believing that there is only one right way to think about anything.
So, I'm not so much for teaching them _how_ to think for themselves as for
attempting to demonstrate to them that it is possible.
>If you do a good job, you're setting yourself up as a
>benevolent authority figure, and the student, no matter how
>sincerely motivated, is fundamentally only going to be
>putting on a show for you.
More often, IME, students tend to resent those who teach them
such things. Most young people (and quite a few older ones) carry round
big bundles of hate and frustration which they haven't yet figured out how
to express. The first person who enable them to express themselves will
often be the first target of that. This shouldn't necessarily be
prohibitive, but it is going to get to a good teacher after a while.
>It does mean something though. I feel like I'm living in a
>time and a place where people have more freedom to look like
>anything they want than at any time in history. So what's
>with all the gap clones? You can say that they're just
>being practical/lazy, but it's not exactly difficult to get
>dressed in the morning when most of your clothes are solid
>black.
That's a good point. I guess that the idea of goths weraring
black all the time is, in itself, less powerful over here in the UK, where
wearing black is not unusual for anybody; I'm told that it stands out a
lot more in the 'States and thus comes to be seen as a statement. So, over
here, a mostly black wardrobe is a matter of taste more than a matter of
rebellion or even of asserted individuality.
There are, of course, clothes which are distinctly gothy beyond
just being black, and they stand out here as they would anywhere. Maybe
half of the goths in this country could wander around without anyone
particularly noticing them or identifying them as such; the others would
stand out as people distinct from the norm.
The Gap phenomenon, and its relatives, strike me as an attempt
to conform made by people who lack what they perceive as the security of a
uniform; Gap, in particular, seem to have recognised something fundamental
there and exploited it in their marketing. I suspect that there are a lot
of people who, because they want a simple, peaceful life, or because they
are afraid of the world, want very much to blend in, to find a look which
is so popular and ordinary that nobody will ever single them out. It
might, in a sense, give them power: they can attract attention with
personality or behaviour when they really want to, but the rest of the
time they are invisible, whereas a distinctive goth has to cope with that
attention all the time, regardless of exhaustion etc.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
"I don't care which shadow gets me."
Bloostone
: "Father Holy" <fathe...@home.com> wrote in message news:<Zpky7.60332$w62.36...@news1.denver1.co.home.com>...
:> > thing people are always talking about. Plus I miss being able to
:> > 'rebel'.
:> You can't do that now?
:> -1 point
: Note the fact I put that in quotes :P Of course I can do that
: now, but I'm no longer in the school environment, which is a great
: staging ground. I'm just dissapointed I can not provoke admins into
: detaining me for no valid reason and laughing in their faces about it.
I miss that. To a certain extent you get it just after leaving school
for just being young and odd looking. I used to get stopped on the
street by the fuzz quite a lot when I was under 20.
I've not significantly changed the way I dress, yet I don't seem to get
that sort of hassle now, and to be honest I do miss it.
:> > ask me to not wear my coat again.
:> Your trench defines you?
:> -1 point
: No my trenchcoat doesn't define me. Did I say that? I guess I
: did...
No... I didn't think you did either. It's an easy assumption to make
though as the trenchcoat is part of the GothKit(tm) available in all
good high street stores.
: but my main point was that the administrators trying to get it
: off me was utterly..... er..... damn where's my thesaurus.
When my school started taking exception to my leather jacket (I guess I
must have painted one two many band names/emblems onto it) I bought a
good quality long black (cashmere) overcoat. It was extremely smart and
really, really annoyed one or two of the teachers.
:> > Funny I wear so much black when blue is my favorite color.
:> Do I even have to?
:> -1 point
: Black goes good on me. Plus I don't have to match colors. Much
: easier.
Yup, my fave colour is probably blue, but I can't imagine myself going
out dressed head to toe in it!
In fact of all the (non-black) colours I probably wear most green
because I think it looks best on me.
:> > I wear a trenchcoat regularly, but so do news reporters,
:> Creativity?
:> (We already took a point for the trench, I'll be nice.)
: I keep on forgetting its not even a trenchcoat. Just a regular
: long coat. I only wear it 'cuz it looks good on me... at least people
: tell me so.
Good enough reason. In goth circles though you will cop some flak as it
is, for a goth, totally unoriginal.
:> > I don't have any piercings or tatoos, and I don't wear much
:> > jewelry. I don't wear fishnets, but I might.
:> Let's see, body art -1, jewelry -1.
:> -2 points
As a matter of fact, I wear very little jewelry (only gets knackered at
gigs, and then carves pieces out of me), and have by way of piercings
just two earrings.
I tend to wear gaffer tape more than fishnet.
:>
:> Sum of 7 negative points.
:>
:> Magdalene, detain the perp immediately.
:> Pump him full of Type-O and MM until he thinks Slipknot is god.
They all suck donkey's cheesey bell-end if you ask me.
: Meep.
: I guess I was never cut out for it. I don't even put enough time
: and effort into it. Hell, look at my track record. No makeup,
I rarely wear make-up nowadays... I'm gettting older, less need.
: piercings,
Just the two.
: tatoos,
Nope.
: hairstyle,
Can't be arsed. Never really could. It looks good long.
: depression,
Nope.
: poetry,
Ah. I do occasionally write poetry though. Unfortunately it's not
terrible so I actually score negative points there.
: suicide,
Nope.
: rebellion.
Asserting your personality is important. Rebelling against authority
isn't. If disagreement with authority happens because authority is
attempting to (unreasonably) limit your self-expression then there is a
reason to disobey, and you may be seen as a rebel as a result.
There is no place IMHO for disobeying authority simply for the sake of
doing so.
: Maybe I just think there's better things to worry about.
Very wise. If you are yourself and people call you a goth, so be it. If
not, who cares? It's only a label.
--
<BLOODSTONE> ^ . ^ * .
~ I don't sleep * . ~
~ ^ So I don't dream ^ . ^
. . So I don't wake up frightened.
kest
>
>It's always seemed to me that "teaching someone to think for
>themselves" is a near impossible, contradictory task.
I think high schools would be much better if they were more like good small
liberal arts colleges.
k
kest
A guy walked into alt.artist (which doesn't exist, btw, mores the pity) and
asked 'What is art?' He said 'Am I an artist?'
How would you answer him?
Now, if it were me, I would tell that guy that everything is art, and he's
an artist if he looks at the world as art and calls himself an artist.
And I still say nothing is goth, in the most profound of ways, and that you
are a goth if you look at the world as it is and that anyone who calls
themselves a goth is certainly not one.
We are the subculture of outcasts and independent thinkers. It's a happy
coincidence that we tend to like the same music and the same weird clothing
styles but all those who think that being into the music and the clothing
means they are *about* something, has, I think, beautifully missed the
point, in the same way as people who worship statues of the Buddha.
k, being philosophical
Audrey DeLong
> do...@kzsu.stanford.edu (Joe Brenner) challenged the world with:
>
> >
> >It's always seemed to me that "teaching someone to think for
> >themselves" is a near impossible, contradictory task.
as someone who teaches, i have to say, yes. you can lead a horse
to water, and then you just have to kick them until they fall
in. however, there are so many PC protections on their egos that you
can't say anything that doesnt' sound completelly supportive. If a
student hands in a shallow vapid pointless diffuse paper based on a
ridiculous, and here in the south probably proselytizing paper, i have
to say that it showed he worked really hard.
tehn when they get a b or c, they want to hunt me down and kill
me. ahh, bracing!
>
> I think high schools would be much better if they were more like good small
> liberal arts colleges.
i think high schools would be better if htey didn't have high
school students. back in teh bronze age, when i was in school, high school
culture was bad enough, with fashion and dating and all that. barely time
for the average person to crack a book. At the very least, grade
inflation needs to stop. People are getting into college who really,
well, shouldn't. Good small liberal arts colleges have already weeded out
the lame and the fashion focussed and have left the people who actually
give hlaf a rats ass about school. that's why they're better. Trust me,
its not teh teachers!
Audrey deLong
RHODOPHIL: "I am thinking over all my sins, to find for which of them it
was i marry'd thee." Dryden _Marriage a-la-Mode_ Act III scene 1.
David Gerard
Tiny Human Ferret <kla...@clark.net> wrote:
:And this is me doing my "the FAQ isn't always entirely right especially
:since it got hijacked" rant.
Details, please. Who 'hijacked' it and when, and what happened?
(I have been here for versions 1, 2 and 3 all being current.)
:bitterness which acquired a lot of the merely Mopey people. From
:about late 1997 onwards (IIRC) there was a massive culture war in here, with
:AGSF in many cases becoming merely the enforcement arm of the Goth Ideology
:Council. Aside from repelling a large numbers of actual trolls, there was
:what seemed to be a concerted effort to repel anyone who wasn't clearly a
:Goth, and many people who had been mostly Gothic were sent packing. Many of
:those sent packing left over the issue of whether or not the FAQ had been
:hijacked, or was being hijacked;
No. As I recall it at the time, *you* wanked on for ages that FAQs were
inherently fascist and evil, and when pinned down you tried to weasel that
they *might* be.
If you disagree, name someone other than yourself that was making a fuss
about it at the time.
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ http://www.rocknerd.org/
"May your porn collect become corrupt, your spanking hand develop arthritis,
and your relatives discover your hobbies." (Kieran)
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:14:19 -0400,
> Tiny Human Ferret <kla...@clark.net> wrote:
>
> :And this is me doing my "the FAQ isn't always entirely right especially
> :since it got hijacked" rant.
>
> Details, please. Who 'hijacked' it and when, and what happened?
As I recall, this was at the time of one of the worst troll invasions ever
(remember the Guns'n'Roses spew?) and and a lot of people went essentially
bugfuck and were FAQ-smacking everyone, the instant any newcomers came,
regardless of whether they were well-behaved or not, bang, thirty copies of
the FAQ in their mailbox or a dozen copies of links to the FAQ in their
mailbox, etc.
Here's a prime example:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=FAQ-Smaq+AGSF+group:alt.gothic&hl=en&scoring=d&rnum=4&selm=3587730A.EFD4ED51%40tampabay.rr.com
An excellent post which contains what might be a good summary, mentioning
many of the parties both centrist and extremist, is here:
As an example of even more of the "what are the rules, then?" type postings
may be found here:
And some very good common sense from oddlystrange may be found here:
In part,
But do NOT try to legislate this crap.
Do you *realise* how utterly
confusing a hail of flames for not
properly following the alt.gothic
messages tagging methods would be for a newbie?
Its not *netiquette* is just an added bonus.
Tag or not tag and let time and culture
develope as a result. If tagging
catches on it *will* become the culture
of the newsgroup. If not, then it
was never meant to be in the first place.
You *cannot* willfilly legislate a *new*
direction for a newsgroup. You
*CANNOT* it evolves over time.
Quit trying to make *rules* and start doing
shit that you think will work.
When it does work *Viola* the newsgroup
has a new culture.
...
I seem to recall, also, that the whole AGSF thing got a bit out of hand at
one point in time with regard to the FAQ. Didn't a (there is no) cabal
essentially demand that the FAQ be re-written to make it lots easier to
ToS/LART people merely for not leaving AG if asked to? Something along that
line, that's how it wound up getting used a lot, IIRC. Also as I seem to
recall, this annoying tendency towards pouncing on all newcomers ended only
with the Littleton episode which understandably gave people other things to
do.
> (I have been here for versions 1, 2 and 3 all being current.)
Actually, haven't you been the FAQ-keeper through all versions?
>
> :bitterness which acquired a lot of the merely Mopey people. From
> :about late 1997 onwards (IIRC) there was a massive culture war in here, with
> :AGSF in many cases becoming merely the enforcement arm of the Goth Ideology
> :Council. Aside from repelling a large numbers of actual trolls, there was
> :what seemed to be a concerted effort to repel anyone who wasn't clearly a
> :Goth, and many people who had been mostly Gothic were sent packing. Many of
> :those sent packing left over the issue of whether or not the FAQ had been
> :hijacked, or was being hijacked;
>
> No. As I recall it at the time, *you* wanked on for ages that FAQs were
> inherently fascist and evil, and when pinned down you tried to weasel that
> they *might* be.
No, I didn't wank on about how all FAQs were evil, however they are
inherently fascist when they're more a list of rules than answers to
commonly asked questions. That sort of stuff belongs in the Charter, or at
best the FAQ should refer to another FAQ or similar generally-recognized
document that addresses posting guidelines, etc.
That's not weaseling, that's just common sense. But then again, this isn't a
NG in the Big 8, it's in the ALT heirarchy, "anarchists, lunatics, and
terrorists".
Mostly what I had to say is well summarized here:
You probably will admit that the fascism is more about what one does with
the FAQ than with the FAQ itself. In any case, "The FAQ that must be read
before posting is not the True FAQ". It might be a perfectly good and
helpful FAQ (or it might not be) and it might save a lot of trouble.
However, the only way a FAQ that must be read before posting can be a True
FAQ is if the group Charter says that "posters must demonstrate that they've
read the FAQ before posting, by posting in conformity with the guidelines in
the FAQ".
> If you disagree, name someone other than yourself that was making a fuss
> about it at the time.
There weren't many; most people who were bothered by it bailed on the NG and
got their online gothnicity needs met elsewhere. You may of course look
through any of the whole-threads cited above and draw up your own lists
according to "so you say that the trains do not run on time? you will now
give us the names of these people who say the trains do not run on time."
Lucid H. Dreaming
, Lucid H. Dreaming wrote:
>
>I remember the whole thing blew over after went just a little
>too far.
After ?Xandrius? went a little bit too far that is.
?
--
you're schroedinger's collateral.
you're dead, but you both are and are not a military target;
and they won't know until they search your corpse for a gun. -- nightshade
Lucid H. Dreaming
>
>> (I have been here for versions 1, 2 and 3 all being current.)
>
>Actually, haven't you been the FAQ-keeper through all versions?
No that's H*dyn. And before that Bloodrose I think.
David Gerard posts the FAQ pointers and other assorted useful links here
every month.
>
>> If you disagree, name someone other than yourself that was making a fuss
>> about it at the time.
>
>There weren't many; most people who were bothered by it bailed on the NG and
>got their online gothnicity needs met elsewhere. You may of course look
>through any of the whole-threads cited above and draw up your own lists
>according to "so you say that the trains do not run on time? you will now
>give us the names of these people who say the trains do not run on time."
Holy f*ck. I was here for this.
I remember the whole thing blew over after went just a little
too far.
?
kest
>On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, kest wrote:
>
>> I think high schools would be much better if they were more like good
>> small liberal arts colleges.
> i think high schools would be better if htey didn't have high
>school students. back in teh bronze age, when i was in school, high
I think high schools would be a *lot* better if everyone gave proper credit
to the potential of high school students. Of course they goof off. Why
should they care about the shit being thrown at them? They're mainly there
because they have no choice. You think some magical change comes over these
people when they go to college? No, they just know they need to do certain
things for their own benefit, so they do them.
"Punishing" students by being extra harsh doesn't do any good either. It
just makes them feel like they're stupid and can't learn. You gotta show
them why they should *care*.
>better. Trust me, its not teh teachers!
>
I didn't say it was the teachers (although, *cough*...). Its the way of
teaching. Its the entire societal attitude towards education and youth and
thinking itself. (As in 'please don't, be a nice little wageslave.' Which,
ya know, has its good side, but we're outgrowing it.)
Matthew King
: You are speaking of "gothic" I am speaking of "goth".
Jeez. Deja vu all over again.
My new epiphany this time around: I don't know a damn thing about "goth"
because all the goths I know are net.goths, which is not the same thing at
all. Or something.
That's all. See ya next time.
Matthew
Matthew-King---Toronto---Canada---"Have-you-come-here-to-play-Jesus-
-----------------------------------to-the-lepers-in-your-head?"-U2--
John Everett
> We are the subculture of outcasts and independent
> thinkers.
Outcasts?
"The plan was always to be as big as possible. We want to play stadiums."
-- Andrew Eldritch
Independent thinkers?
"We recognize that we're working within certain clichés and conventions."
-- Andrew Eldritch
It's funny how you sound less like Andrew Eldritch -- and more like Abbie
Hoffman.
John
John Everett
> I wasn't there when goth was born but I
> understand it had more to do with punk
> music and silly clothes than any kind of
> Gothic sensibility.
Well, I was there when goth was born and can assure you that your
understanding is mistaken. Compared to the Johnny Rottens and the Watties
of the day, goths wore positively sensible clothes and normal haircuts, from
Joy Division to UK Decay to Sisters of Mercy. Just look at Ben and Craig:
http://jeverett0902.tripod.com/GDP/Sisters.jpg
Moreover, there was nothing punk whatsoever about goth bands. Punk music
was rebellious, energetic, and wild. Goth music was controlled, deliberate,
and plodding. Trust me, back in the day, you just didn't walk up to a DJ
spinning "Alternative Ulster" and ask to hear "Alice", nor did you walk up
to someone playing Broken Bones and ask to hear Joy Division. Totally
different heads, man.
Goth was a counter-point to punk -- the tribal in the face of the
anachistic, the structured in the face of the destroyed.
> Goth has way more to do with being a party girl
> than it does with being a coroner. It's music
> and fashion, music and fashion.
"In matters of great importance style, not substance is the crucial matter."
Hate to crash into your naive Progessivist elitism, but as trite as a party
girl might be, it's far less trite than a People's Poet(tm).
John
John Everett
> Goth as a subculture is a subset of Gothic
> sensibilities, I do believe.
I think you have it backwards. I prefer goth, not gothic. Goth is an
artistic orientation -- decadent rather than progressive, tribal rather than
individualistic, 'dark' rather than Enlightened(tm), etc.
'Gothic', however, is particular manifestations of the Goth artistic
orientation. Moreover, some things which are gothic may have been Goth in
the past, but are no longer in the present. Cases in point, a gothic
artifact like pagan spirituality -- back in the early 80's, in counterpoint
to the Dead Kennedy's "All Religions Suck" and Crass' "On Earth I have
ambassadors: minister, vicar, Pope..." -- was indeed Goth. However, in the
present cultural context -- when paganism is essentially a metaphor for
countercultural non-conformance -- it is not even remotely Goth. Likewise
with the fetish scene. As a counter-point to the austere, abstract climate
of the Au Pairs' "Equal, but Different" and the Gang of Four's "It's Her
Factory", the appropriation of archetypal sexual elements was Goth.
However, in the present cultural context -- when the fetish scene is
essentially a metaphor for rebellion and self-indulgence -- it is not even
remotely Goth.
> "Gothic", especially as regards the news:alt.gothic
> newsgroup, is "all things mournful and dark".
Not *all* things mornful and dark -- *some* things mornful and dark. The
mornfulness of Gene Loves Jezebel's "Influenza" was Goth. The darkness of
Danse Society's _Falling Apart_ was Goth. Nothing Depeche Mode, The Cure,
or Tears for Fears ever produced -- no matter how mournful and dark -- was
ever Gothic.
Which reminds me of an incredulous email I received from a friend of mine
from Miami. He lived in London in the early 80's, saw Southern Death Cult
play live at Heaven, used to do a radio show in Miami around '84. Anyway,
he wrote:
last week they had a story in The Street, that's a New Times like rag The
Herald puts out, about some gothic club out near the airport. the report
was some 30-something former gothic chic and she says, and im not making
this up, the club reminded her of the days when she would go to gothic clubs
and they would play depeche mode all night long. when the hell did depeche
mode become gothic?
I can't really give him a good answer, although I can commiserate with the
misconception. The best I can figure is that somewhere along the line a
sythpop, homo-disco band like Depeche Mode decided to incorporate Gothic
elements into their work (that is to say more accurately, they decided to
copy particular historic manifestations of the Goth artistic orientation.)
Despite copying the Gothic surfaces of some Goths, however, they never even
came close to approximating the Goth core. And of course, people who don't
know any better -- and who talk about the Gothic sensibility or aesthetic,
rather than the Goth artistic orientation and phenomenon -- just made the
sloppy association.
John
~BlackWing~
... i'm drinking blackberry manechewitz, TWO glasses so far while i wait for
the boi to come get me, and i STILL have enough sense not to get in on some
frikken' [is X goth] thread.
don't i?
..oh BL00DY hell.
~B~
Blondie: The Hardest Part
Metamorph
> Joy Division to UK Decay to Sisters of Mercy. Just look at Ben and Craig:
> http://jeverett0902.tripod.com/GDP/Sisters.jpg
Why is it that I can never access your links? Is there a secret code?
Metamorph *pouting*
--
Paul Revere Virus - Warns of an impending virus infection:
1 if by LAN, 2 if by C:\
David Gerard
John Everett <eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> wrote:
:"kest" wrote...
:> We are the subculture of outcasts and independent
:> thinkers.
:Outcasts?
:"The plan was always to be as big as possible. We want to play stadiums."
:-- Andrew Eldritch
:Independent thinkers?
:"We recognize that we're working within certain clichés and conventions."
:-- Andrew Eldritch
But he's not goth.
(might as well be me)
John Everett
> If my net dick is not big enough for your esteemed
> self, I refer you to EdVamp:
>
> "There is no gothic philosophy, no gothic beliefs, no
> gothic secret fucking handshake."
Uh, do try another strap on. EdVamp is a heavy metal kid from suburban Long
Island. Hardly an authority -- unless of course this is your paragon of
Goth:
http://jeverett0902.tripod.com/GDP/Goth1.jpg
John
John Everett
> Goth is the subculture that is based around or inspired
> by this aesthetic, and whoever identifies with and is part
> of that culture could be described as 'a goth'
Heavens, you are defining an art -- not by the art itself, nor by the artist
which created the work, nor by the muse which inpired that art -- but by the
drooling, ignorant *fans* of the art! From what circle of Reader Response
Hell have you emerged?
Why ever would you refer to Goth, not as that which inspires an aesthetic,
but rather as those who are inspired by that aesthetic -- particularly
regardless of whether those inpired are clueless copycats, hacks, poseurs,
or misfit twits just looking for a Freak Culture(tm) in which to finally
find a club which would actually have them as a member.
Goth is not a subculture. Goth is an artistic orentation and phenomenon.
Goth *produces* gothic works -- it is not produced by them. The audience is
not the subject of discussion.
John
Lucid H. Dreaming
, John Everett wrote:
*snip*
>essentially a metaphor for rebellion and self-indulgence -- it is not even
>remotely Goth.
So what is goth _right_now_?
>
>John
John Everett
> > http://jeverett0902.tripod.com/GDP/Sisters.jpg
>
> Why is it that I can never access your links? Is there
> a secret code?
The way you're coming to the link must look like remote linking to
Tripod.com, which blocks that sort of bandwidth stealing. Try backing the
URL down to the GDP directory and then chosing the file out of the listing.
John
~BlackWing~
"Lucid H. Dreaming" wrote:
> So what is goth _right_now_?
well, i can tell you where it is, or how fast it's moving but not ..
oh wait, here comes your .sig...
> --
> you're schroedinger's collateral.
>
> you're dead, but you both are and are not a military target;
> and they won't know until they search your corpse for a gun. -- nightshade
Wheeee!
~B~
David Gerard
John Everett <eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> wrote:
:Goth is not a subculture. Goth is an artistic orentation and phenomenon.
:Goth *produces* gothic works -- it is not produced by them. The audience is
:not the subject of discussion.
Goth is a subculture. Goth is not an artistic orientation or phenomenon.
Goth does not *produce* gothic works - it is produced by them. The audience
is the subject of discussion.
John Everett
> The audience is the subject of discussion.
No, the audience -- as clearly evidenced by your gallery of Melbourne
hippies in lederhosen and matronly dowdies in black -- are the object of
derision.
John
Lucid H. Dreaming
David Gerard
John Everett <eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> wrote:
:"David Gerard" wrote...
My apologies. I will be sure to Photoshop your beard onto the next set.
Father Holy
news:3bcf...@news.alphalink.com.au...
>
> A.K. wrote
>
> :Anyway, I really think that's the key to it. The other goth stuff is
> :all an accident. It all just sot of came together.
> :
> :But the essence, the root, is music and fashion.
>
> Wow, people are still trying to claim that their own viewpoint is the
> definitive definition of goth?
That's part of what I like about this scene.
It manages to hold together despite everybody being in charge.
> So, if it is all about music and fashion, does that mean that i become a
I honestly don't know when, or if, I ever became "goth. (for lack of a
better term). Somewhere around 1993 or 1994, people started accusing me of
that. But, I never thought that was accurate. They didn't know what a goth
was anyway. They could hardly recognize a punk. I was into everything from
old country music (Gene Autry, Hank Sr, Patsy, Marty) to serious industrial
(the Throbbing Gristle kind, not the NIN kind). I was finishing up my BsBA.
I had long hair and wore lots of military surplus & thrift store stuff.
Yes, I did have a thing for black. It was just easy for gawd sakes. I
still stay as inebriated as possible.
I think that the fashion and music ultimately drew me into a group of people
who I could never walk away from now. What I used to think was no more than
a party turned into a big big love. I certainly have a different lifestyle
than I thought I would 15 years ago. It's definitely different than that of
my neighbors. Much better than I could have imagined. It became an easy
way of finding folks who are somewhat likeminded. That said, I'm finding
less and less in common with people who identify themselves as goth or
gothic everyday.
> And each of these interpretations has its own expression in fashion, in
> music, in attitudes and behaviour, which is why you have so many different
> kinds of taste within the scene, and so many little sub-genres and
> sub-scenes.
And again, it magically holds together. Evidence of the MGB?
> :"There is no gothic philosophy, no gothic beliefs, no gothic
> :secret fucking handshake."
>
> Opinions are like genitals - everybody's are different, and which ones are
> better is merely a matter of personal preference.
Yes, but EdVamp's _IS_ bigger.
Ask him.
PP
Father Holy
"John Everett" <eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> wrote in message
news:4L7A7.199998$Xz1.33...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
Dude, I have that album.
And Crue fukkin' rocks.
Dude.
PP
Edvamp
>Island. Hardly an authority
Merely attacking my 'qualifications' to discuss goth music is not sufficient to
disprove a point that I do agree with. I've always readily admitted that I
didn't come out of the womb goth, that I grew up liking metal, and that I
didn't get my phd in Goth Studies from Miskatonic U. Of course, these aren't
exactly things a person should be ashamed of.
I got into goth late in the game, 90-91, so I already knew I'd missed it. But
from living in England and talking with people who had been into it far longer
than I had is what made me come to the point that AK was mentioning, that I
have never seen, noticed or observed some overriding gothic philosophy or
mindset.
But, that opinion is not engraved in stone. I would be more than happy to
discuss the possibility that there is one. That must be the reason that you
chimed in, that you believe that there is a overall gothic philosophy and
mindset, and you wanted to debate that point openly and honestly. It couldn't
have been that you do agree with me, but just saw an opening to take a cheap
shot.
Ever and Always
Edvamp
Not Perky Today
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> In article <slrn9stlge....@zen.art.rmit.edu.au>
> , Lucid H. Dreaming wrote:
> >
> >I remember the whole thing blew over after went just a little
> >too far.
>
> After ?Xandrius? went a little bit too far that is.
I think that's safely characterized as going beyond "ballistic" into
"non-Euclidian" in terms of narrative trajectory.
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> In article <1e7A7.199753$Xz1.33...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>
> , John Everett wrote:
> *snip*
> >essentially a metaphor for rebellion and self-indulgence -- it is not even
> >remotely Goth.
>
> So what is goth _right_now_?
A bunch of guys in black leather jackets and clompy boots doing the two-step
to VNV Nation? Fetishy Grrls in Black doing the "swooping witch" or "heroin
ballerina" dance?
That's mostly what it seems to be in the clubs around here.
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> "stranger.." wrote...
> > Goth is the subculture that is based around or inspired
> > by this aesthetic, and whoever identifies with and is part
> > of that culture could be described as 'a goth'
<snips>
> Goth is not a subculture. Goth is an artistic orentation and phenomenon.
> Goth *produces* gothic works -- it is not produced by them. The audience is
> not the subject of discussion.
Egads, you've stood it on its head as well as getting it all backwards.
The Goth subculture grew out of Gothic arts, specifically the Gothic Novel
and subsequent deriviative film-noir, but probably most directly out of
campy spoofs of said film-noir, specifically Rocky Horror Picture Show...
where the audience is _definitely_ the thing of interest.
>
> John
~BlackWing~
Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
> Egads, you've stood it on its head as well as getting it all backwards.
>
maybe he's hanging from the ceiling by his toes, looking in a mirror, describing
what he sees: the ultimate self-regarding goffy bat-boy's perspective.
"HEED my VEINS!"
~B~
John Everett
> The Goth subculture grew out of Gothic arts,
> specifically the Gothic Novel and subsequent
> deriviative film-noir, but probably most directly
> out of campy spoofs of said film-noir, specifically
> Rocky Horror Picture Show... where the audience
> is _definitely_ the thing of interest.
"Groups generally don't recognise, or rather they try and forget, that
there's a barrier between band and audience. They pretend it doesn't exist.
What we do, we've got this really big barrier and it's really intricate and
ornate, and elaborately decorated, and it's got BARRIER painted all over it;
and it's a very funny thing, although it's quite serious."
-- Andrew Eldritch, _Sounds_, December 18, 1982.
Perhaps in your text above you accurately described the bastard genealogy of
the Subculture(tm) of 'Freaks, alternateens, and post-alternateens in
black' -- but you aren't even scratching the surface of Goth, merely
describing the follies of 4th and 5th generation clueless copycats.
Again, the audience is not the subject of discussion. Goth is the artist
and muse who create the art -- not the twit fans who are mere consumers and
imitators of the art. Create for yourself this really big -- intricate,
ornate, elaborately decorated, and BOLDLY labeled -- barrier between the
two.
John
John Everett
> Dude, I have that album.
Have a ever mentioned that: no, you don't look like John Everett -- you look
instead like David Crosby dressed in 80's Madonna drag?
John Everett
> But from living in England and talking with people who had
> been into it far longer than I had is what made me come to
> the point that AK was mentioning, that I have never seen,
> noticed or observed some overriding gothic philosophy or
> mindset.
Ever notice that, when I discuss the matter, I refer -- not to fans 'into
it' -- but rather to the works of art themselves, the cultural context in
which the art was produced, and the interview comments of those who produced
the art?
> But, that opinion is not engraved in stone. I would be more
> than happy to discuss the possibility that there is one. That
> must be the reason that you chimed in, that you believe that
> there is a overall gothic philosophy and mindset, and you
> wanted to debate that point openly and honestly.
Feel free to be the first to comment on any of the points -- and in
particular the direct references to the art works and artists -- which I
have already made.
John
Siobhan
<eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> wrote:
>"stranger.." wrote...
>> Goth is the subculture that is based around or inspired
>> by this aesthetic, and whoever identifies with and is part
>> of that culture could be described as 'a goth'
>
>Heavens, you are defining an art -- not by the art itself, nor by the artist
>which created the work, nor by the muse which inpired that art -- but by the
>drooling, ignorant *fans* of the art! From what circle of Reader Response
>Hell have you emerged?
Whenever I see someone using the word "heavens" as an expletive, I
always get an immediate mental image of them wearing a blue floral
print dress with a white handbag.
Siobhan
....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail...
{http://www.virulent.org} sio...@virulent.org
Convergence VIII Montreal Committee Alpha Male
Angels Among Us http://altgothic.com/c8montreal/
Tiny Human Ferret
No no no, Mr Everett. Once again, you have confused the Goth, with the Goth
As Fuck and Formatively So.
Nice bit of delineation of the higher contours of the subcultural
topography, however.
And I might also add that, at least in the past, the "twit fans... and
imitators" at least aspire to the art, rather than towards mere consumerism.
witness to this latter, how fast the people posting to the group for the
address of the nearest "Hot Topic(tm) are rousted.
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 05:36:03 GMT, "John Everett"
> <eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> wrote:
>
> >"stranger.." wrote...
> >> Goth is the subculture that is based around or inspired
> >> by this aesthetic, and whoever identifies with and is part
> >> of that culture could be described as 'a goth'
> >
> >Heavens, you are defining an art -- not by the art itself, nor by the artist
> >which created the work, nor by the muse which inpired that art -- but by the
> >drooling, ignorant *fans* of the art! From what circle of Reader Response
> >Hell have you emerged?
>
> Whenever I see someone using the word "heavens" as an expletive, I
> always get an immediate mental image of them wearing a blue floral
> print dress with a white handbag.
Will you people just quit SPYING on me!
Heavens!
--klaatu, runs away giggling...
>
> Siobhan
--
Tiny Human Ferret
Who the hell pissed in _your_ Count Chocula?
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
David Gerard
Tiny Human Ferret <kla...@clark.net> wrote:
:"Lucid H. Dreaming" wrote:
:> In article <1e7A7.199753$Xz1.33...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>
:> , John Everett wrote:
:> >essentially a metaphor for rebellion and self-indulgence -- it is not even
:> >remotely Goth.
:> So what is goth _right_now_?
:A bunch of guys in black leather jackets and clompy boots doing the two-step
:to VNV Nation? Fetishy Grrls in Black doing the "swooping witch" or "heroin
:ballerina" dance?
:That's mostly what it seems to be in the clubs around here.
Except for the band, that's what it was in Perth in the late eighties as well.
Sounds GAF to me.
David Gerard
Siobhan <sio...@virulent.org> wrote:
:On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 05:36:03 GMT, "John Everett"
:<eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> wrote:
:>"stranger.." wrote...
:>> Goth is the subculture that is based around or inspired
:>> by this aesthetic, and whoever identifies with and is part
:>> of that culture could be described as 'a goth'
:>Heavens, you are defining an art -- not by the art itself, nor by the artist
:>which created the work, nor by the muse which inpired that art -- but by the
:>drooling, ignorant *fans* of the art! From what circle of Reader Response
:>Hell have you emerged?
: Whenever I see someone using the word "heavens" as an expletive, I
:always get an immediate mental image of them wearing a blue floral
:print dress with a white handbag.
That and the beard. John Everett as Aunty Jack?
Father Holy
You took that awfully personal.
Must be tough for you to look in the mirror from time to time.
Hope things get better for you.
PP
Cavalorn
Everett <eve...@virtu.sar.usf.edu> writes
>Again, the audience is not the subject of discussion. Goth is the artist
>and muse who create the art -- not the twit fans who are mere consumers and
>imitators of the art. Create for yourself this really big -- intricate,
>ornate, elaborately decorated, and BOLDLY labeled -- barrier between the
>two.
So when are you going to write the book you came here to research? ;)
Cav
--
Give me a woman who's taken her knocks,
Who's tasted both gutter and stars.
Give me a lady with holes in her socks.
Give me a princess with scars.
Edvamp
>it' -- but rather to the works of art themselves, the cultural context in
>which the art was produced, and the interview comments of those who produced
>the art?
I did a Google search on this topic and found some references to Goth as a
counterpoint for Punk in a Trolling For Kicks thread about a year ago, but
nothing really more specific. I'll keep looking, but if you know the thread it
was discussed in, I'd be happy to check it out to get the points you are
talking about.
As an aside, how important do you think the fans are in establishing the
cultural context and philosophy of a band? Bands generally don't like to
define themselves, so their context and associations with other bands is often
made by fans and the music press.
kest
>>I got into goth late in the game, 90-91, so I already knew I'd missed
>it. But from living in England and talking with people who had been
Why do I get the feeling, from reading this, that the true secret power of
Goth comes from it having Always Been Dead?
k
--
Sound and Fury [TM]
Damion
> So, what's your _real_ reason to post? What made you want to
> talk to people here?
I really don't know... I'm convinced that it was probably some
subconscious need to tell someone about me who doesn't know me.
> So did you have your kid while you were still in school?
No. We haven't had her yet. Due in January. However I did need to
get out of school in the regular sense so I would have the articulacy
(is that a word?) to get a job, which I finally did the other day.
My advice to anyone planning to be sexually active had better 1:
love the person to death, and 2: plan on having a baby, regardless of
whatever preventative methods they are using. Goodness knows we
followed both rules without really knowing it. We didn't plan on
having a baby, but we planned what to do if and when it happened.
> I can't imagine having the time and energy spare to go out _looking_ for
> conflict.
Well on my end it is less about looking for a conflict and more
about looking at a potential conflict that I think should be resolved,
either to set a precedent of some sort or to prove something to
myself.
> > I used to have an all-black wardrobe, but now I somehow mixed
> >some blue jeans into there, and some grey and white shirts.
>
> Offhand, I can't think of anyone here who has an entirely black
> wardrobe. Neither can I think of anyone who would consider such a thing to
> be of great significance. What I wonder about here is whether it is of
> significance to _you_, since you chose to raise it. Do you think that the
> change in your wardrobe represents a change in your personality?
Maybe... I think it represents more of a change in my life. It
doesn't matter much to me, though. My whole idea is to wear what I
want, not to wear what someone else wants. It works. I'm starting to
like the change anyway.
> So why _are_ you seeing her? Out of habit? Are you paying her
> money for that? Do you think that ceasing to see her would have a negative
> impact on your life?
Habit, probably, or maybe because we've become friends... a
friend that I pay to see O.o No I don't think ceasing the sessions
would make bad things happen... I don't plan to see her often in the
future, though.
> There is no uniform. You do realise that, right? We will not
> make you wear a shirt and little peaked cap to make you look identical to
> the rest of us. I am sorry; we are not the rebellion you are looking for.
Not really looking for anyone. I hung out with your type, if you
can call it that, in school enough. I did so because there was no
better group to 'hang' with. Black was no uniform there, anyway. I was
probably the only one who did such a thing.
skerry.
onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>My advice to anyone planning to be sexually active had better 1:
>love the person to death, and 2: plan on having a baby, regardless of
>whatever preventative methods they are using.
i need a t-shirt that says PRO-COATHANGER.
carrie, who never plans on "having a baby".
---> mutilation @ fuzzy pink satan . com
---> *
---> in power we trust.
`Una
>On 21 Oct 2001 17:04:11 -0700, vir...@hotmail.com (Damion) fpevooyrq
>onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>
>>My advice to anyone planning to be sexually active had better 1:
>>love the person to death, and 2: plan on having a baby, regardless of
>>whatever preventative methods they are using.
>
>i need a t-shirt that says PRO-COATHANGER.
I *heart* <insert herbal abortificant>.
Miscarriages happen all the time.
It isn't a viable life form until it can breathe
on it's own. I've been immersed in the pro-life
propoganda until I've choked on it. I don't buy it.
But that's just my opinion.
`Una - the love platypus
when I say NEVER having a baby, I mean it.
--
Gothae Una Verus, The Young Locust
http://www.velvet.net/~una
We should go brush our teeth and have sex.
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:49:57 -0400,
> Tiny Human Ferret <kla...@clark.net> wrote:
> :"Lucid H. Dreaming" wrote:
> :> In article <1e7A7.199753$Xz1.33...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>
> :> , John Everett wrote:
>
> :> >essentially a metaphor for rebellion and self-indulgence -- it is not even
> :> >remotely Goth.
>
> :> So what is goth _right_now_?
>
> :A bunch of guys in black leather jackets and clompy boots doing the two-step
> :to VNV Nation? Fetishy Grrls in Black doing the "swooping witch" or "heroin
> :ballerina" dance?
> :That's mostly what it seems to be in the clubs around here.
>
> Except for the band, that's what it was in Perth in the late eighties as well.
> Sounds GAF to me.
All of the proof I've ever need to convince me that we've been successfully
invaded by Western Australia. </joke>
Nah, seriously, it's pretty much the Freaks scene, but around here it's a
lot more Industrial than anything remotely Goth, though actually there are a
lot of folks who aren't too thrilled with Apoptygma Berzerk in excessive
doses, but can be pretty easily convinced to play Clan of Xymox or Cabaret
Voltaire. The thing is, I've often heard stuff more to my taste with respect
to "Gothic" in some of the clubs that are supposedly more "Retro" than
"Goth".
maggot
"skerry." wrote:
>
> On 21 Oct 2001 17:04:11 -0700, vir...@hotmail.com (Damion) fpevooyrq
> onpxjneqf sbe fngna:
>
> >My advice to anyone planning to be sexually active had better 1:
> >love the person to death, and 2: plan on having a baby, regardless of
> >whatever preventative methods they are using.
>
> i need a t-shirt that says PRO-COATHANGER.
>
> carrie, who never plans on "having a baby".
I once saw a T-shirt with a coathanger on the front and a splatter of
blood on the back. No words, but I'm pretty sure the meaning was clear.
maggot
--
-Hollywood. Reality imitates film. Kids get missiles from
the film 'Atlantis' in their McDonald's Happy Meals and
it gets harder and harder to tell blood from ketchup. - Eduardo
Galeano
http://www.notanexit.org
Glenn Olson
<kla...@clark.net> wrote:
>John Everett wrote:
>>
>> "Father Holy" wrote...
>> > Dude, I have that album.
>>
>> Have a ever mentioned that: no, you don't look like John Everett -- you look
>> instead like David Crosby dressed in 80's Madonna drag?
>
>Who the hell pissed in _your_ Count Chocula?
He did it himself.
Stoicism, and all that.
(Cept it was organic-grown wheaties in soy milk, cause dairy's bad for
his blood type.)
--
"I want to be pretty *and* kick butt"
- 19 y/o girl's reaction to Angelina Jolie as Lara Croft
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4894-2001Jun14.html
maggot
Glenn Olson wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:37:28 -0400, Tiny Human Ferret
> <kla...@clark.net> wrote:
>
> >John Everett wrote:
> >>
> >> "Father Holy" wrote...
> >> > Dude, I have that album.
> >>
> >> Have a ever mentioned that: no, you don't look like John Everett -- you look
> >> instead like David Crosby dressed in 80's Madonna drag?
> >
> >Who the hell pissed in _your_ Count Chocula?
>
> He did it himself.
>
> Stoicism, and all that.
Nuff said, that's goin in my quote book.
Or at the very least, one I'm gonna be usin for a while.
Jodi
> So the Gothic Scene did emerge
>mostly from Mainstream Punk (sic) but it wasn't about being silly, mostly,
>it was more about indicating that you were alternative as fuck, but not some
>stupid punk obsessed with violence, crime and street drugs.
Oh my. That totally describes my existence at the age of 18 and 19.
.sig file!!!
Jodi
I am angry I am ill and I'm as ugly as sin
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking
- Magazine, "A Song from Under the Floorboards"
maggot
Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
> "Lucid H. Dreaming" wrote:
> >
> > In article <1e7A7.199753$Xz1.33...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>
> > , John Everett wrote:
> > *snip*
> > >essentially a metaphor for rebellion and self-indulgence -- it is not even
> > >remotely Goth.
> >
> > So what is goth _right_now_?
>
> A bunch of guys in black leather jackets and clompy boots doing the two-step
> to VNV Nation? Fetishy Grrls in Black doing the "swooping witch" or "heroin
> ballerina" dance?
>
> That's mostly what it seems to be in the clubs around here.
Oh come on, there's either a gothic frame of mind or there isn't,
getcher story straight :P
Endymion
> Heavens, you are defining an art -- not by the art itself, nor by the
artist
> which created the work, nor by the muse which inpired that art -- but by
the
> drooling, ignorant *fans* of the art! From what circle of Reader Response
> Hell have you emerged?
John, are you (and Andrew Eldritch) trying to judge and define mass
entertainment by the standards of art? How terribly postmodern of you!
--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com
Endymion
> I hung out with your type, if you
> can call it that, in school enough.
If you had even one person of Jennie's "type" in your high school, it was
the coolest and most unique high school in the history of public education.
Please don't mistake people with rich and diverse interests, talents,
backgrounds, and education who congregate here for the Sp00kY lil' doom
cookies with whom you went to school.
--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com
John Everett
> John, are you (and Andrew Eldritch) trying to judge
> and define mass entertainment by the standards of art?
> How terribly postmodern of you!
Hey, don't blame me and Uncle Andy. Jim Morrison started it.
At any rate, I'm don't think it's entirely fair to associate 'mass
entertainment' with the music scene of the early 80's English indie charts.
For better or worse, it was an art/alternative scene -- back when such words
actually meant something.
John
Jennie
>Miscarriages happen all the time.
>It isn't a viable life form until it can breathe
>on it's own. I've been immersed in the pro-life
>propoganda until I've choked on it. I don't buy it.
If you consider the initial advice as 'you'd better plan on how
you would deal with an unintended pregnancy' instead of '...with having a
baby', it would make plenty of sense for any potentially fertile people
engaging in heterosexual PIV sex, though, wouldn't it? I've a feeling
that's the advice which was intended; practical, more than political.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
"It was for this that Rubin had been arrested. People in the unit who
disliked him had accused him of speaking out, after the offensive of
January 1945, against the slogan 'Blood for blood and death for death'."
Tiny Human Ferret
>
> Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
> >
> > "Lucid H. Dreaming" wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <1e7A7.199753$Xz1.33...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>
> > > , John Everett wrote:
> > > *snip*
> > > >essentially a metaphor for rebellion and self-indulgence -- it is not even
> > > >remotely Goth.
> > >
> > > So what is goth _right_now_?
> >
> > A bunch of guys in black leather jackets and clompy boots doing the two-step
> > to VNV Nation? Fetishy Grrls in Black doing the "swooping witch" or "heroin
> > ballerina" dance?
> >
> > That's mostly what it seems to be in the clubs around here.
>
> Oh come on, there's either a gothic frame of mind or there isn't,
> getcher story straight :P
I dunno, you tell me: some of these so-called Goths have _tans_.
>
> maggot
Jennie
>jen...@triffid.demon.co.uk (Jennie) wrote in message
>news:<slrn9soc76...@triffid.demon.co.uk>...
>> So, what's your _real_ reason to post? What made you want to
>> talk to people here?
> I really don't know... I'm convinced that it was probably some
>subconscious need to tell someone about me who doesn't know me.
Ah, but you never know who might be lurking. ;) It's unwise
to post to usenet under the illusion that your friends, spouse or boss
will never see it. Then again, that may not be what you meant; you just
wanted to talk to some new people, right?
> No. We haven't had her yet. Due in January. However I did need to
>get out of school in the regular sense so I would have the articulacy
>(is that a word?) to get a job, which I finally did the other day.
I'm glad things worked out for you; as best they could, anyway,
by the sounds of it. :)
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
http://www.triffid.demon.co.uk/jennie
"You're thinking too much about who will think badly of you
"You throw away chances, let love pass you by
"But remember: there is never forever, only the moment."
Jennie
<disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>If you had even one person of Jennie's "type" in your high school, it was
>the coolest and most unique high school in the history of public education.
Aw, leave it out, Endymion. It's sweet of you to say that, but
really, I haven't been referred to as a 'type' in so long... it makes me
all nostalgic. ;) Anyway, I think young Damion was only trying to find a
convenient way to describe goths as a group; maybe he's too refined to
resort to my usual strategy and say simply 'species'.
That aside, I should add that _I_ went to my own secondary
school and that I would seem to have been quite unable to redeem that.
maggot
Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
>
> maggot wrote:
> >
> > Tiny Human Ferret wrote:
> > >
> > > "Lucid H. Dreaming" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <1e7A7.199753$Xz1.33...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>
> > > > , John Everett wrote:
> > > > *snip*
> > > > >essentially a metaphor for rebellion and self-indulgence -- it is not even
> > > > >remotely Goth.
> > > >
> > > > So what is goth _right_now_?
> > >
> > > A bunch of guys in black leather jackets and clompy boots doing the two-step
> > > to VNV Nation? Fetishy Grrls in Black doing the "swooping witch" or "heroin
> > > ballerina" dance?
> > >
> > > That's mostly what it seems to be in the clubs around here.
> >
> > Oh come on, there's either a gothic frame of mind or there isn't,
> > getcher story straight :P
>
> I dunno, you tell me: some of these so-called Goths have _tans_.
SoCal exports, you can't blame them, it's like coming back from Vietnam
with malaria.
Zoe J Selengut
On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Jennie wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:57:38 GMT, `Una <u...@nettrip.org> wrote:
> >Miscarriages happen all the time.
> >It isn't a viable life form until it can breathe
> >on it's own. I've been immersed in the pro-life
> >propoganda until I've choked on it. I don't buy it.
>
> If you consider the initial advice as 'you'd better plan on how
> you would deal with an unintended pregnancy' instead of '...with having a
> baby', it would make plenty of sense for any potentially fertile people
> engaging in heterosexual PIV sex, though, wouldn't it? I've a feeling
> that's the advice which was intended; practical, more than political.
That may be so in this case. But I've heard a lot of people say that thing
about not having sex w/anyone you aren't willing to make a baby with, and
when you point out that for most responsible women that rules out casual
sex altogether, it turns out that's exactly what they were getting at.
Having an abortion provider/morning after pill at the ready is not the
kind of responsibility they have in mind.
Zoe
Siobhan
<sele...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Jennie wrote:
>> If you consider the initial advice as 'you'd better plan on how
>> you would deal with an unintended pregnancy' instead of '...with having a
>> baby', it would make plenty of sense for any potentially fertile people
>> engaging in heterosexual PIV sex, though, wouldn't it? I've a feeling
>> that's the advice which was intended; practical, more than political.
>
>That may be so in this case. But I've heard a lot of people say that thing
>about not having sex w/anyone you aren't willing to make a baby with, and
>when you point out that for most responsible women that rules out casual
>sex altogether, it turns out that's exactly what they were getting at.
It does nothing of the kind.
There are lots of forms of sex that do not carry the risk of
pregnancy.
Siobhan
....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail...
{http://www.virulent.org} sio...@virulent.org
Convergence VIII Montreal Committee Alpha Male
Angels Among Us http://altgothic.com/c8montreal/
Endymion
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:26:59 -0400, Endymion
> <disinte...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >If you had even one person of Jennie's "type" in your high school, it was
> >the coolest and most unique high school in the history of public
education.
>
> Aw, leave it out, Endymion.
Last time I say something nice about *you*, then! ;-p
> That aside, I should add that _I_ went to my own secondary
> school and that I would seem to have been quite unable to redeem that.
I thought of that, of course, but then you at that age, while doubtless a
person worth knowing, could hardly have been the same "type" as you here and
now, could you? The education and experience do make a difference. Not that
anyone without them is necessarily to be dismissed, but I think it's foolish
to judge the potential of the butterflies only by looking at their larvae.
--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com
John Everett
> There are lots of forms of sex that do not
> carry the risk of pregnancy.
Free Love(tm) men don't think like that:
Empirically speaking, sexual liberation was practiced by women on a wide
scale in the sixties and it did not work: that is, it did not free women.
Its purpose -- it turned out -- was to free men to use women without
bourgeois constraints, and in that it was successful.... The sexual
standard was the male-to-female fuck, and women served it -- it did not
serve women.
-- Andrea Dworkin
Endymion
> "Endymion" wrote...
> > John, are you (and Andrew Eldritch) trying to judge
> > and define mass entertainment by the standards of art?
> > How terribly postmodern of you!
>
> Hey, don't blame me and Uncle Andy. Jim Morrison started it.
And, as we know, Jim was goth because many goths today think of him as goth.
> At any rate, I'm don't think it's entirely fair to associate 'mass
> entertainment' with the music scene of the early 80's English indie
charts.
> For better or worse, it was an art/alternative scene -- back when such
words
> actually meant something.
Fine; "pop entertainment" rather than "mass entertainment". Entertainment
aimed at a snobbish, self-defined elite is still entertainment, and while
I'll accept the idea of some artistic aspirations from members of that
creative scene, I think it was still mostly entertainment and posturing -
even if original and highly enjoyable entertainment and posturing. But then
my critical opinion and $1.95 will get you a soy milk latte.
--
Endymion
disinte...@mindspring.com