Christina of Denmark
RCLOVELY
Christina of Denmark? When she was approached by HenryVIII's ambisidors with a
proposal of marrage she replied.....
" that the King's Majesty was in so little space rid of the queens that she
dare not trust his Council for her council suspected that her great-aunt was
poisoned, that the second was innocently put to death and the third lost for
lack of keeping in her childbed. If she had two heads, one whould be at his
Grace's service"
Quite outspoken for the 16century. What hapened to her, is it known?
RC
PPill
matrimonial woes of Henry VIII.
PPill
walk...@hom.net wrote:
> > RCLOVELY wrote:
> >
> >
walk...@hom.net
> RCLOVELY wrote:
>
> Candace, what is known about the lively, young,
> Dowager Duchess of Milan, Christina of Denmark?
>
> When she was approached by Henry VIII's
> replied..... "that the King's Majesty was in so little
> space rid of the queens that she dare not trust his
> Council for her council suspected that her great-aunt
> was poisoned, that the second was innocently put to
> death and the third lost for lack of keeping in her
> his Grace's service"
>
> Quite outspoken for the 16th century. What
> happened to her, is it known?
Christina is one of at least two women alleged to
have made such a witty, albeit stinging, observation
when Henry VIII s bridal-fact-finders came a-calling.
The other was the widowed Marie de Guise, who
was engaged to James V of Scotland, Henry's
nephew through his elder sister, Margaret, the
Dowager Queen of Scotland.
Marie, like her daughter by James would be, was
a tall woman, probably close to six feet tall (Mary,
Queen of Scots, is variously described as being
between 5'10 and 6" tall... at any rate, very tall
for a woman of the 15th century, and both women
would tower over most men of their time.)
Declaring himself "a big man... who hath need of
a big wife," Henry wanted the Marie-James
engagement broken. Marie is alleged to have said
that though she was a big woman (i.e., a tall
woman) she had a very small neck and head, and
that if she had two, one would be at Henry's
disposal. Marie was 22 soon after the death of
Queen Jane, and was the widow of the Louis,
the Duc de Longueville. She was not only a
"handsome woman," she was demonstrably fertile.
Through her marriage to the late Duc, she was
already the mother of two sons, which undoubtedly
gave her a certain cachet in Henry's eyes. In an
age where the gender of children was supposed to
be determined by their mothers, Henry was eager
to bolster the Succession, which, at that moment,
rested solely on the life of Prince Edward, the son
left behind at Queen Jane's death, and his two
bastardized daughters from his first two marriages,
Mary (Catherine of Aragon) and Elizabeth (Anne
Boleyn.) In the three years of Marie's marriage to
Louis, she had produced two living sons (though
one would die as an infant and the elder not reach
his 20th birthday.)
Though Henry was very keen to have Marie as
Queen Number Four, it was not the plan of her
wily Guise relations, and she was contracted
to marry James V (and one would think that Henry
had had enough of premarital entanglements.)
Though to be Queen Consort of England was
very arguably a "better catch" than to be Queen
Consort of Scotland, there were many other
factors at work here.
First of all, Marie would not have been the first
French bride for a Scottish monarch. Her intended
husband, James V, was himself a widower: his
first wife had been the frail and lovely Madeleine
de France. Madeleine had failed to survive her
first harsh winter in Scotland, dying in the Spring
after her January wedding. The Gallo-Scots
alliance would be maintained with another French
bride.
Secondly, all of Royal Europe had taken note of
Henry s marital situation. He was hardly the first
(not would he be the last) monarch to discard a
wife, but Henry had married and buried three,
all three women dying (the first arguably from
neglect, strain and a broken heart) in a dizzying
18th month period beginning in January 1536.
Catherine died under what amounted to house
arrest at Kimbolton in January 1536, Anne was
executed on Tower Green in May 1536, and
Jane died of puerperal fever in October 1537.
There was also the undeniable fact that though
noble and Royally-descended, the last two of
Henry s wives had been commoners, both of
them courted and wooed in the lifetimes (and
marriages) of their predecessors. Kings slept
with whom they liked, that was very true, but
none had put aside a crowned and anointed
Queen and Consort for her servant, a lady-in-
waiting.
If Catherine of Aragon, the daughter of the
famous Catholic Kings and maternal aunt
to Holy Roman Emperors, could, after two
decades if honouurable, if not particularly
fruitful, marriage could be so firmly set aside
for a nobody, what assurance would any Royal
lady have that Henry might not accord her the
same treatment?
Also, there would be a built-in "loophole."
Precontracture could be nullified by a
dispensation from the Pope, but Henry had
proved himself quite content to feel nettled
by a dispensated impediment if he felt a
marriage was not working out to his
satisfaction. Catherine of Aragon had been
previously married to Henry's elder brother
Arthur, Prince of Wales, in 1501. Though
Catherine swore to her dying day that that
marriage remained unconsummated, the
broadest dispensation had been given
just in case it had. When Henry wished to
rid himself of Catherine, decades later, he
protested haunted and cursed by God
because he had married his brother's wife.
If the Gallo-Scots engagement (that of Marie
and James) was broken, even with a
dispensation, and Marie married Henry, what
should happen if Marie failed to provide Henry
with more sons? She could easily find herself
in Catherine's unhappy position.
Henry whined and blustered - he wanted Marie.
He belittled his nephew, saying that he could
not imagine that Marie wanted a callow,
scraggly-bearded youth when she could have...
well... him (the Great I-Ham ;) The matter
was finally pounded home to Henry with an
exasperated, "Sire! Would you have your
nephew's wife?"
As it turned out, Marie de Guise produced
three children in the scant four years she was
married to James V; two boys and a girl.
The boys did not last long, both dying as
infants, but the girl reigned as the great
tragic heroine Mary, Queen of Scots.
For Henry, the hunt for Wife Number Four
continued, which brings us, Gentle Readers,
to the second woman alleged to have given the
witty "two-headed" reply, Christina of Denmark.
Christina stood for the Tudor master artist
Hans Holbein the Younger in Spring 1538.
Henry fell in love at first sight with the lovely
portrait. Like the lost Marie de Guise, Christina
was tall. Like Jane Seymour, she was very
demure and modest. Like Anne Boleyn, she
loved to hunt. Like Catherine of Aragon, she
was skilled at playing cards.
However, it appears that the Emperor had no
true desire to marry the much-sought-after
Christina into England. Henry tried to sweeten
the deal by negotiating another Habsburg match
simultaneously, that of his disgraced daughter
Mary to Dom Luis of Portugal, the Emperor's
brother-in-law. (There would not have been
any problem vis-a-vis Mary's legitimacy as
the Habsburgs held the marriage of Mary's
parents to have been a valid and true one,
and therefore Mary undeniably legitimate.
Jane and Henry had been married, and Edward
had been born, after the death of Catherine
of Aragon, so they had no arguments with
Edward's legitimacy and precedence over
Mary in the English Succession.)
The Emperor was stringing Henry along: his
true aim was to scuttle any negotiations Henry
could make for French brides, and therefore
an Anglo-French alliance.
Charles V and Francois I declared a truce at
Nice in June 1538, leaving England out and
politically isolated, but the negotiations in
Brussels for the hand of Christina of Denmark
continued. There was actually little hope that
she would become the next Queen Consort of
England, but Henry was not ready to give up,
not yet.
Henry dispatched Charles Wriothesley to
Brussels, and he was received by Christina
there in February 1539. Permitted by her
aunt, the Regent, Wriothesley asked Christina
is she "minded" to marry Henry, for he had
heard that she was of a different opinion on
the subject. Christina denied this, and said,
"As for my inclination, what should I say?
You know I am at the Emperor's commandment."
She even repeated her words.
This was entirely true, and though it was not
as pithy and memorable as the "two-headed"
comment, it is probably the extent that
Christina truly said. As she was well aware,
she was a pawn on the Emperor's chessboard,
and however marriage to Henry may have
given her pause, or even caused her fear, had
the Emperor decided it in the Habsburg interest,
she would be sent to England forthwith.
Christina was no fool, and unlikely to have
offended a powerful - and infamously techty -
future husband by dismissing him as an
effective wife-murderer. However willing Henry
might have been to overlook such an ingracious
comment in the beginning, he might later feel
he had cause to use such words against her.
Wriothesley then went for broke, and pressed
his luck. He began to sing Henry's praises,
laying it on with a trowel. He assured Christina
that, should the engagement with Henry be
agreed to, "ye shall be matched with the most
gentle Gentleman that liveth; his nature so
benign and pleasant, that I think to this day
no man hath heard many angry words pass his
mouth!"
It was extremely unlikely that Christina,
already a widow who had lived in a husband's
Court, would be unaware of all of the
dizzying details of the gossip that made the
rounds of the Courts of Europe about the
marriages of England's King, and his
behaviour during and after them.
Hearing the flattery of Wriothesley, the young
Dowager Duchess smiled and reacted "like
one (methought) that was tickled." It would
have been indelicate and rude for her to
laugh outright in Wriothesley's face, but it
is understandable that Christina was very
likely amused.
The Emperor decided against the English
proposal, and the lovely Christina married
Francis of Lorraine in 1541. Henry had
tired of the game the year before, and
married Anna of Cleves in 1540. As in
the case of Christina, Henry had "fallen in
love" with a portrait painted by Master
Holbein. Henry would later swear bitterly
that the portrait had been grossly misleading,
and the marriage ended in divorce. He then
married Katheryn Howard, and by the time
Christina was marrying Francis, Henry was
entertaining high hopes that Katheryn would
become pregnant and bear him sons.
She didn't, and Katheryn went the way of
her Howard cousin, Anne Boleyn, though for
more justifiable cause but without any
issue. Henry's final marriage, made in
1543 to Catherine Parr, was childless, and
Catherine had the good fortune (after a
very close call) of outliving "the English
Bluebeard." Henry died in 1547.
Shortly before their fourth wedding anniversary,
Francis died in 1545, leaving Christina a widow
again. This widowhood was different however.
This time, Christina was a mother of a son, who
ascended to his father s place and reigned
as Duc de Lorraine. He was called Charles III,
"the Great."
Christina lived on until 1590, long outliving
Henry and two of his successors (Edward VI
and Mary I.) Her son, Charles, lived until
1608.
Had Henry could have seen it, he would
hardly have been amused. Charles III
outlived all of Henry's heirs (which also
resulted in the end of the Tudor line on
the Throne of England) and had two sons
of his own to continue his line.
Copyright© 2000 C.E. Metz-Longinette-Gahring
All Rights Reserved
--
- CEM-L-G
Personal Homepage: http://www.hom.net/~walkuere/
"Bis Ihre Lebensdauer beendet wird, haben Sie gerade
genug erlernt, es gut anzufangen." - Eleanore Marx
"Who can refute a sneer?" - William Paley (1743-1805):
Moral Philosophy. Vol. ii. Book v. Chap. 9.
"Se desiderassi sentire il vostro parere, Vi darei uno."
Italian common sense ;)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
the Fleming
Could you expand a little on Catherine Parr's 'near miss'? That was news to
me.
the Fleming
(who got unexpectedly stumped last night when the quiz's history round
contained the questions "Who was Henry VIII's *4th* wife" and "What was her
fate". Nothing like a question where the reply matters, to be uncertain
about what you knew for certain before. *Now* I'll remember the succession
of wives went:
divorced - beheaded - died -
divorced - beheaded - survived,
which is much easier to remember.
What a repetitive fellow he was, eh? ;o)
walk...@hom.net wrote in message <8aeoer$24p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
BZ Lane
Clever Christina; to not be mislead by the Worthy Wriothesley_"the most
gentle Gentleman that liveth"_the beastly Hal? It must have taken
enormous effort to avoid dissolving into tears of laughter.
I wonder if Good King Hal ever developed a fancy for any more of
Holbein's subjects?I have wondered if Anne of Cleeves was Quite as
unappealing as Henry purported and whinged over. I saw a miniature
likeness of her in the National Portrait Gallery, London wherein she was
pretty.It's a pity Holbein wasn't as graphic as Hogarth!
BZ
"George the First was always reckoned
Vile, but viler George the Second; And what mortal ever heard Any good
of George the Third? When from earth the Fourth descended, God be
praised, the Georges ended!"
Walter Landor 1775-1864
(Poor bloke didn't fathom Five and Six and Possibly Seven aka Chaz)
PPill
BZ Lane wrote:
> Merci, Candace!
>
> Clever Christina; to not be mislead by the Worthy Wriothesley_"the most
> gentle Gentleman that liveth"_the beastly Hal? It must have taken
> enormous effort to avoid dissolving into tears of laughter.
>
> I wonder if Good King Hal ever developed a fancy for any more of
> Holbein's subjects?I have wondered if Anne of Cleeves was Quite as
> unappealing as Henry purported and whinged over. I saw a miniature
> likeness of her in the National Portrait Gallery, London wherein she was
> pretty.It's a pity Holbein wasn't as graphic as Hogarth!
> BZ
>
> Holbein was said to have fallen in love with his subject when he painted
> Anne of Cleves, and thus, saw her through rose colored glasses, and
> depicted her that way. It is frustrating that we will never know what
> these folks really looked like, because portrait painters, knowing which
> side their bread was buttered on, frequently flattered their subjects.
> Many of the women who were reputed to be great beauties don't look
> beautiful to me in portraits. Standards of beauty are a fickle thing,
> aren't they? I am always amazed however, that anyone can paint those tiny
> minatures! Whether or not they are accurate, they are lovely to look at.
PPill
>
>
walk...@hom.net
> > Henry's final marriage, made in 1543 to
> > Catherine Parr, was childless, and
> > Catherine had the good fortune (after a
> > very close call) of outliving "the English
> > Bluebeard." Henry died in 1547.
> The Fleming wrote:
>
> Riveting as always, Candace.
Thank you. :)
> Could you expand a little on Catherine Parr's
> 'near miss'? That was news to me.
Willingly. :) I just want to warn everyone that
this is a long and detailed answer!
Catherine Parr came within a hair of trodding
the same tragic path as Anne Boleyn and
Katheryn Howard. The situation was so
serious, and so life-threatening that Catherine
almost collapsed into a nervous breakdown.
She had to pull herself together, her very Life
depended on her next actions.
To understand the gravity of the situation in
which Catherine found herself, to appreciate
the very edge of a precipice over which she
was dangling, one must understand all that
happened before, and the man to whom
Catherine was married.
Henry's reign had begun in a golden light.
Henry VII was seen as old, embittered and
miserly, not a jolly, fun man at all. The
Throne which he had won on a field of battle
had not brought him personal happiness. His
gentle Queen was dead in childbed, gone after
a final attempt to bolster the English
Succession. Elizabeth of York had born Henry
three sons that survived childbirth, and two
of them, Arthur (the Prince of Wales) and
toddler Edmund, were already gone. Only
Prince Henry remained. No King, especially
Henry VII, the first King of a fledgling dynasty,
felt secure with just one Life between him
and the extinction of his line.
Henry VII had played with the idea of
remarriage. His daughter-in-law, Catherine
of Aragon, widow of the Prince of Wales, was
considered. Her parents were immensely
against it - not because of any romantic
considerations for the young girl, but because
it would, at best, result in Catherine being
the widowed second wife of a King, mother
of superfluous Royal children. Catherine's
destiny, they felt and desired, was to be
a Queen Consort and mother of a King,
someone who could raise a half-Spanish son
for the Throne of England, strengthening
the ties and alliances to Spain. It appeared
that Prince Henry was robust and strong, and
was likely to succeed his father. Catherine
would thus be just the widow of a King, the
majority of her influence would end with
Henry VII's Life. Any sons she would have
would only be useful until the new King,
Henry VIII, had sons of his own. Further
and further removed from the Succession,
Catherine's influence would wane and
finally disappear completely.
Another possibility was Juana of Castile,
Catherine s widowed elder sister, who became
Queen in her own right of Castile. Henry VII
had met her when she and her husband
visited England. She was rumoured to be
seriously disturbed at best, but Henry had
been pleased by her pretty face and, most
important of all, her hyper-fertile uterus.
Juana had tons of babies, and most of them
were thriving. On that count, it did not
concern Henry that Juana might be a few
beans short of a burrito. To be blunt,
the final analysis of a woman was her
abilities below the waist. Her face could be
scarred and her skull largely empty, but if
she could bear healthy, thriving sons, she
was worth her weight in gold.
Henry did not marry Juana either, though
he considered it. No other marriage
negotiations ever came to serious plans.
It is very arguable that despite the cold of
Henry's personality, he had simply adored
the meek and retiring wife who had been
content to love him, adorn his Court and
bear his children, and when push came
to shove, he was not truly willing to
replace her in his Life or in his bed.
The ascension of 18 year old Henry was
like the summer sun that warms the world
after days of wet skies. Everything was
golden, and Henry's first act was to marry
the woman with whom he had effectively
grown up: Catherine of Aragon. Henry was
a romantic, and there was much romance
to Catherine s unhappy story. She had
been a social and political coup for Henry VII,
and too soon after a dazzling wedding in
1501, she had been widowed and left
alone. Her father, Ferdinand of Aragon,
had been content to live Catherine, almost
alone and destitute in England, and Henry VII,
saw her as an accountant who sees a
failed investment. Catherine spent many
bitter years living with a penniless retinue
circle of Royal retainers. A Spanish
amabassador once complained that the
widowed Princess of Wales served old
fish at her table. Catherine replied
practically that day-old fish was cheaper
than fresh fish, and she was doing all she
could to stretch the meagre funds she had.
Though Henry VIII, as the new heir, been
contracted to marry Catherine, Henry VII had
had Henry renounce the engagement. Henry
later said it had been his father's dying
wish that he married Catherine. How much
validity there was to that is unknown: it
bears saying that Henry VII was not a
romantic man. Henry VIII was.
Everyone noticed the unwearying attentions
the new King showered on his bride.
One dynamic of their relationship was that
Catherine was six years older than Henry.
There was a certain element of, well,
bossiness, that existed. Henry was an
exuberant teenager who was thrilled with
his new position and Life itself. Though
Catherine kept pace, she was no longer a
kid. It was only a matter of time before
their age difference caught up with them.
And then there was the sad fact that despite
their enthusiasm and love for one another,
there would be no huge Royal Family to
bind them together. Initially, Henry had
been thrilled with the birth of their daughter,
Mary, and by that baby's ability to thrive.
He took it as a happy omen that sons would
surely follow. No sons born, before or after
Mary, were able to do the same.
Originally, Catherine was able to convince
Henry that, like her own mother, a woman
could be very capable of reigning in her own
right. Henry was further pleased by the idea
that young Mary could be married to her
cousin, Charles, the Habsburg Emperor. This
marriage would make Mary an Empress, and
a grandson the ruler of an enormous and
powerful group of nations.
It was not to be, and Charles' treachery
provided the turning point in the relationship
of Henry and Catherine. From there, there
was no effective "turning back."
If Catherine had been every inch a Queen
and certain of her place in the world, Henry
had been titillated by the fiery personality of
Anne Boleyn. She had been unlike any
women Henry had ever known. Unlike his
retiring mother, who had been content to
walk demurely behind his father. Unlike his
wife, whose personality had been channelled
into pastimes and interests considered
"acceptable" for Royal women. Henry had
never encountered a woman who told him,
"no." Except where it touched her faith,
Catherine had been ever-accommodating to
Henry s every whim and will. The crook of
his finger could bring any beauty to his bed,
and he had to give nothing in return.
Anne Boleyn's flat refusal to become his
mistress piqued Henry's interest. There
was something different about this woman.
In the grand drama that became the
Catherine-Henry-Anne triangle, Henry found
himself between two strong women, and
different from one another than night
and day.
Catherine would never have raised her voice
to Henry. She submitted to his commands,
but never crumbled before him. When Anne
was displeased, she let Henry know it, and
it was novelty of something new. Henry was
put in the position of constantly having to
woo a woman of whom he was not certain.
He could behave like a cad, or a spoiled
child, and Catherine always forgave and
welcomed him. If he became bored with a
woman, he was in control, it was he who
decided when an affair was over. Anne
held the cards, and it inflamed Henry, like
a child who ignores all other options but
the one toy he is forbidden.
As with Catherine, the fatal flaw came when
there was nothing to bind Henry; to wit, a
son. The novelty of Anne's behaviour
wore thin and the clock began to tick even
before the crown matrimonial rested on
Anne's raven tresses. Henry and Anne
brawled like fishwives., and Henry reminded
Anne that he "could lower [her] even as
[he] had raised [her]" and further advised
her that she should "shut [her] eyes [and
mouth, undoubtedly] as [her] betters [meaning
the Royal Catherine] had done!" Anne made
a rapid transition from the pampered and spoiled
mistress who had the power to a discontented
and abused wife who was only the mother
of yet another useless daughter almost
overnight.
Both Catherine and Anne dared argue with
Henry, and he would not make the same
mistake with Wife Number Three.
The fates of her predecessors weighed
heavily on Jane Seymour. She was neither
as naturally intelligent nor educated as
Catherine or Anne. When Henry said,
"jump!" Queen Jane leapt into the air. When
Jane once beseeched Henry on her knees
to spare the abbeys and monasteries, Henry
coldly snarled that she would do well to get
off her knees and busy herself with other
subjects. She was not his equal and she
was not his advisor, and he would have no
more such scenes. Jane's blood must have
run cold when Henry darkly alluded to the
fact that he would not tolerate any more of
the meddling of women in his policies,
actions and reign.
It was easy for Henry to later romanticize
Jane Seymour. She had died after giving
birth to their son, and their marriage had
lasted a scant 18 months. There had not
been much time for personality rubs, and
Jane was very unlike Catherine or Anne.
Henry lionized her as his one true wife
and this status was no doubt in large part
to Jane's gift of a son.
It was very easy for Henry to see Jane
Seymour as perfect after her death.
Arguably, Henry would have tired of such
a retiring, bland little wife - Henry loved
excitement, and from what is known of
Jane Seymour and her personality, it
is debatable whether or not Henry would
have been enthralled with her for
decades. Unless Jane cheated on him
(unlikely, not her personality) Henry would
never have put her aside, because she
was the mother of a son. However, he
would have very likely returned to amusing
himself otherwise, and Jane would have
went the way of many Queens - the
relationship would have been publicly
perfect, but in private, perhaps they would
go their separate ways (or, to be more
succinct, Henry would have went his own
way, women were not allowed such
options.)
After Jane's death, Henry cast around for
a new wife. He blamed his advisors for
wishing him to remarry, but no one ever
truly made Henry do something he did
not want, and bottom line, Henry was
probably lonely, and then there was the
fact that the English Succession could
use as many healthy male heirs as could
be got.
The marriage of Henry with Anna of Cleves
was a disaster. It was the only marriage
Henry made purely for reasons of State,
and Henry behaved like the perfect cad.
Unlike many of his peers, who compliantly
married women sight unseen and did their
best ("their best" being according to the
times) Henry had very impractical (again,
for his time) views on romance. He had
never married a woman he had not known
and been able, in a way, to "date." He had
not dated Catherine of Aragon per se,
but he had known her since he was a child.
Anna was quick on the uptake and knew the
danger of her position. She was thrilled
to be a Queen, but aware of how Henry
treated people who crossed him. All of
Europe knew that Henry had sent many of
his nearest-and-dearest to the block (though
he thought he had good reason and for
many of the executions, he later blamed
other people for influencing them. For
example, he blamed the judicial murders of
many of his friends on Anne Boleyn.)
Henry got exactly what he wanted from Anna
in the way of the end of their relationship.
She agreed to his every suggestion, and
did not demur when he almost immediately
married one of her ladies-in-waiting. Anna
lived out the rest of her Life in England as
"Henry's dearest sister."
Anna had never challenged Henry. She
was even meeker than Jane Seymour, at
least when it counted, which was in every
way to Henry's will. Whatever Henry did,
Anna never questioned him, nor asked
for anything.
He remembered her fondly, and they got
along for the rest of his Life. It was even
wondered, after the execution of Katheryn
Howard, whether Henry would call Anna
back to her place as his wife. In the
years following their divorce, Anna had
remedied many of the things which Henry
had found objectionable in her: she learned
English (though she would always speak it
with a strong accent and not perfectly
fluently) she adopted English fashions, she
became fond of English wine and food and
enjoyed such courtly pastimes as gambling
and cards.
The story of Henry's fifth marriage could be
easily summed up with "there is no fool
like an old fool." Katheryn Howard was a
dangerous combination of naivete and
foolishness, and she went the way of her
cousin, to the block.
After the execution of Katheryn, it was
observed that Henry, for the first time
without a waiting list of possible Queens,
mourned like a woman widowed for the
tenth time.
The heady days of romance were long
over. Henry was no longer young, and
families that would have put forward their
daughters (after all, Henry had, by this
date, married three commoners) worried
because the past had proved that most
girls could not pass the scrutiny that
an elevation to Queen would bring.
Katheryn Howard, at first glance, had
appeared acceptable. She came from
a good (if huge) family and had been
raised in the strict and pious household
of her step-grandmother. However,
this environment had not guaranteed
Katheryn's chastity, and when it was
proved that the little golden Howard
goose had led a wanton Life - before
and after her Royal marriage, her Fate
was sealed.
The smallest peccadilloes could be
fanned into great sins, and considering
the penalties (and Henry laid about him
for people to blame when he was
angry) the possibilities seemed to be
too great a risk for many families.
The aging, ailing and disappointed King
settled on a widow for his sixth and
final marriage. Catherine Parr's chastity
was not called into question - it was
supposed that her marriages had been
consummated, though Catherine had
not borne any children. She had the
skills of a nurse, and had always been
seen as a compliant and submissive
wife.
Catherine had fallen in love with Thomas
Seymour prior to Henry's attention
falling on her, but, being an immensely
sensible woman, she knew she could
not turn Henry down (Henry had proven
himself not very amiable to rejection.)
Her flirtation with doom came because
Catherine was her own person, and
used to speaking her mind. Outwardly,
she appeared to be submissive. In
reality, Catherine had become very
interested in, and devoted to, "the New
Religion."
Henry, despite his celebrated break with
Rome, was a natural Catholic. Though
he had named himself the titular Head
of the Church, he still observed all the
rites and rituals of the Church in which
he had been raised. After all, he was
the same person who had been given
the title "Fidei Defensor" by the Pope
for his response to Luther's doctrines.
Catherine was a Protestant. She had
written her own book of devotions and
spent time labouriously learning Latin
that she might read things in their
original. She was very interested in
discussing the New Religion.
Henry was not, and soon found himself
in a marriage with a wife who liked to
debate. Henry's days of debate had
ended in 1536, with the deaths of Catherine
of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. He had
become a despot, and no longer liked to
even entertain other points of view.
He had crushed Jane Seymour when
she challenged him, even though it was
in the most demure, "womanly" way
possible.
Catherine had "dangerous" friends -
men and women who, like herself,
espoused the New Religion, and some
were even willing to die for it. Like
Anne Boleyn before her, Catherine
supported the reformers and tried to
help them when she could.
In the summer of 1545, things came
to a head. Catherine was under
investigation. One of Henry's legs
had ulcerated, and he was in
increasing pain and his temper was,
at best, uncertain. People who felt
they had cause to oppose Catherine
and her influence on Henry (especially
since she was seen to be meddling
in the dangerous issue of religion)
moved to present their case to the
irritable King. Henry could see
their points, after all, every time he
found himself in Catherine's company,
all she did was chatter about the
New Religion and its merits and
doctrines.
It would not do for a woman to see
herself so knowledgeable - to
challenge, even obliquely, the
natural supremacy of men, especially
a man who was not only her husband,
but her King, as well as the Head of
the Church.
Henry confided that he had signed
orders for Catherine's arrest, and even
a fool knew where the arrest of a
Queen led... inevitably, to the block.
He confided in his doctor, and the
doctor told someone else, and a
copy of the signed charges was
dropped outside the Queen's rooms.
Catherine immediately saw the danger,
and seized her one opportunity for
escape.
Naturally, she was scared to death.
Henry had not proved generous with
people with whom he had disagreed.
Two wives had perished on Tower
Green and a third had ended her days
in a dank castle, deprived of everything.
It would be only too easy for Henry to
rid himself of a Queen with no powerful
allies, no great family, just a former
subject whom he had honoured and
elevated with his hand in marriage.
Catherine gathered her wits and courage
and hurried to visit Henry. Henry was
waiting, like a great, hungry spider in
a web. Catherine would have to tread
lightly indeed not to become fatally stuck
in the strands.
Henry greeted her, and suddenly wanted
to discuss, of all things, religion. Whereas
once Catherine had been an eager and
spirited participant, now she was suddenly
demure and refused to take part. When
Henry, with great wiliness, tried to
encourage her, she still declined. "Women,"
she told Henry, "by their first creation were
made subject to men. Being made after the
image of God, as the women were after
their image, men ought to instruct their
wives, who would do all their learning
from them."
The game was not yet over, and Henry
tried to flatter Catherine and coax her
into her usual spirited stand. Catherine
still declined, and matched his flattery
with her own, assuring Henry that she had
"extra reason" to "be taught by His
Majesty, who was a prince of such
excellent learning and wisdom."
The surest way to Henry's heart was
through womanly submission and
the proper tone of awestruck flattery,
and Henry did not miss the allusion to
his theological expertise.
Henry reminded Catherine of their
many past discussions by saying, "not
so by St. Mary! You are become a
Doctor [of the Church] able to instruct
us and not be instructed by us."
This was a challenge, and Catherine
knew it. Henry's days of being "instructed"
by women had ended in 1536, and she
knew it. Henry did not relish debate with
anyone since that time, and had not
even before that - he had long before
tired of Anne Boleyn and Catherine of
Aragon's arguments.
Catherine replied with a perfect defense.
She effected great surprise and protested
that, far from wishing to argue with or
instruct her husband, her natural master,
to say nothing of her King, she had only
been trying to distract His Majesty from
the pain of his ulcerated leg. She again
made the argument that she was hardly
in a position to have any kind of
superiority over the King: she was a
woman, she was his wife, she was his
subject, she was not in any way his
intellectual equal...
Henry was finally convinced, and said,
"and it is even so? Then, my Kate, we
are perfect friends again!" Catherine
must have trembled with how close she
had come to disaster, and Henry enfolded
her in embraces and gave her "very
tender assurances of constant love."
At that moment, the men charged with
arresting Catherine appeared. What
would Henry do?
"Be gone, vartlet!" Henry told the men,
kicking at them, as he "gallantly" kept
Catherine behind him.
It is arguable that perhaps the danger
to Catherine was not so certain, but
given Henry's past behaviour, to men
and women with whom he had shared
even longer and more intimate relationships,
what was important is that Catherine
certainly believed her doom was imminent
and almost certain.
Catherine duly kept her passionate interest
in the New Religion under closer wraps.
She would not risk a repeat nor lose the
faith of which she had convinced Henry.
Though Jane Seymour is often lauded as
the "Protestant Queen," in reality, that
title is better applied to Catherine Parr.
She was more devout to the cause than
Anne Boleyn, and it was through her
influence that the young Edward VI was
raised an absolute Protestant.
Jane Seymour, she that had begged Henry
to "spare the abbeys!" died as she had
lived... a Catholic, and unlike Catherine
Parr, had had a very proper Catholic
funeral (though it was appropriately
"tuned down" for Henry.)
walk...@hom.net
> BZ Lane wrote:
>
> Merci, Candace!
Il était rien. :)
> I wonder if Good King Hal ever developed a
> fancy for any more of Holbein's subjects?
Holbein was quite busy after the death of
Jane Seymour in September 1537. In the
days before Kodak-capturing-the-moment,
a portrait was the closest many people came
to be able to get some idea of how a
future spouse looked.
It was in the best interests of the "host
country" to have their Court painter paint
the portraits that were sent around to
prospective spouses, however, many
sovereigns, if their interest was piqued by
a portrait, to send their own Court painter
to paint a second portrait.
Arguably, a Court painter of the Spanish
Court would be likely to gild the lily,
making Spanish Royals appear more
attractive than they were. If they did not
outright "lie" in their paintings, they
certainly would portray their sitters at
the most attractive angles, wearing
flattering fashions. A good example of
this is that the most attractive portraits
of Charles V show the Holy Roman
Emperor on horseback. He was "long-
bodied," but "short-legged." On
horseback, this was not as noticeable.
Certainly, Spanish Court painters were
faced with many opportunities with
the Spanish Royals, as their inter-
marrying led to recessive genes becoming
dominant, bringing into usage such terms
as "the Habsburg jaw" etc usw.
A painter sent by a foreign Court was
more likely to be more honest in his
depictions. After all, it was a dangerous
business to paint a plain princess as
a great beauty, and then have to deal
with Royal disappointment when the
(usually already-married) princess arrived
at her new Court and was not "as promised."
Some Courts sent portraits - and portrait-
painters - unsolicited. After the death of
Jane Seymour, Henry, hearing of the
attractiveness of this princess and that,
sent Holbein scurrying through the Courts
of Europe so Henry could "see" which he
fancied.
Another "idea" of Henry's did not go over
as well. Learning that the French Court
had several promising candidates, he
inquired whether the ladies concerned
could be amassed for what amounted to
a beauty contest. The French ambassador
was aghast, the idea was unprecedented,
not to mention rather insulting. French
ladies of Royal birth, he told Henry, could
hardly be paraded like ponies before the
English King. He slyly added that, should
such a contest take place, would the
English King also expect to want to
"mount" the favourites, to determine which
was the "best ride"?
Henry had the good sense to blush and
be embarrassed, and the "French Royal
Beauty Contest" idea was abandoned,
though, of course, the story that the
English King was so crass to even suggest
it made the rounds.
Of the many portraits that Holbein created,
Henry was most taken with those of
Christina of Denmark and Anna of Cleves.
I have already described how Christina
alluded Henry s interest, but Anna of
Cleves became his fourth wife, albeit
briefly.
Henry's painters (Holbein and Hoby)
painted Princesse Marguerite (daughter
of François I) Princesse Marie de Vendôme
(although this is not certain) Louise and
Renée de Guise, the two younger sisters
of Marie de Guise (though Renée was
already slated to enter a convent, and
later did) as well as another Guise
relation, Anne de Lorraine. These
paintings were wasted efforts, as all
of the ladies died or continued with
original plans, and Henry's favourite
remained Christina of Denmark.
> I have wondered if Anne of Cleves was
> quite as unappealing as Henry purported
> and whinged over. I saw a miniature
> likeness of her in the National Portrait
> Gallery, London wherein she was pretty.
"Beauty," the saying goes, "is in the eye
of the Beholder."
Had Anna of Cleves been as atrocious
as she is popularly believed to have
been, given Henry's reaction, she hardly
would have even been considered for
Henry's wife. There are no contemporary
accounts that have it that Anna was
ugly, though her speech and dress made
her appear very odd indeed to the English,
who were used to elegant French ladies
and the grave, austere grace of the
Spanish.
As for the infamous comment, alleged to
have made by Henry, described the hapless
Anna as the "Flander mare," it is fiction.
Henry was not taken with Anna, but the
majority of unkind descriptions were
not contemporary.
Henry, as I have written before, was a
romantic. He was taken by the portrait
painted by Holbein, as well as reports
that Anna was beautiful. His imagination
went from there.
Anna was hardly Queen material, and
especially not for Henry. Henry had been
used to accomplished women: the
style of the Clevian Court was in stark
contrast. Unlike Catherine of Aragon or
Anne Boleyn, Anna, despite her Royal
birth, was largely uneducated. She had
also not been educated in any way to
be amusing. Again unlike Catherine or
Anne, she could not sing nor play an
instrument. The Clevian Court also did
not go in for grand amusements like
masques and balls. Like Catherine of
Aragon, Anna was proficient with her
needle, but more because her Court was
poor and Anna more than likely made
many of her own clothes, whereas
Catherine made her husband's shirts
(and decorated them) because she
felt it was her wifely duty, not because
she had to. In comparison to all three
of her potential predecessors, Anna
was unsophisticated in the extreme.
Even Jane Seymour had been a "lady of
the Court" prior to her marriage, and
however personally demure she was in
her own behaviour, she was not unaware
of the more sophisticated "amusements"
of the English Court.
Parallels could be seen between Anna
and Jane Seymour, who was also not
as educated or talented as her
predecessors, but Henry had known
Jane, and in fact wooed her long before
she became his wife. He was the one
who had decided on her relative merits,
not relied on the reports of others.
Also, the Clevian match was a political
one. An alliance of Protestant nations,
though Anna's brother had adopted
Protestantism as a convenience, and
Henry was a natural Catholic. Anna was,
and remained, Catholic herself, and
continued to worship as such.
It was said that Anna was as pretty as
Jane Seymour, and prettier than Catherine
Parr. Anna flirted with danger when,
years after her divorce, she began to
believe Court scuttlebutt and thought it
possible that Henry would recall her
after the Katheryn Howard debacle. She
was offended when Henry settled on
Catherine Parr as his sixth wife, and
declared herself much prettier than
Catherine. Observers at the time did
not contradict Anna's assertions, which
they certainly would have had Anna's
claims been blatantly untrue.
Henry simply preferred a certain type
of woman, and the final ingredient was
that he preferred to chose them himself,
not have them chosen for him or
pressed into service for a political
reason. Anna had been ill-prepared to
appeal to Henry, and once Henry
decided she would not do, no matter
what anyone else said or thought, she
was on her way out.
Anna cleverly saw that to fight Henry
and try to keep her position was fraught
with very real danger. At best, she
would have been returned to Cleves as
a discarded wife, which would have been
embarrassing and demeaning. At worst,
she could be accorded the same treatment
as Catherine of Aragon. It was unlikely
that Henry would have had her executed,
for nothing in Anna's actions would have
given much cause for such extreme action.
Still, Anna had probably heard of Anne
Boleyn and her fate, and as much as
Europe tittered that Anne had perhaps
gotten her just desserts by presuming to
a Queen's crown, not many truly believed
all the calumnies spread about her.
Unpopular while she lived, her death (and
the courage she displayed facing it) lent
credence that Anne was simply a wife
that had become inconvenient to Henry, and
had no one to protect or save her.
> It's a pity Holbein wasn't as graphic as
> Hogarth!
Holbein's art is the best resource we have
to see what people of the time "really
looked like." His depictions are very
realistic. Especially interesting are his
quick charcoal sketches of the men and
women of the time, many of whom he
would have had no reason to make appear
other than they did.
LostNgl
me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Parr had not shown herself to be preggers, and the piggy little eyes were
getting piggier!!!
Also, Queen Catherine, Like AB was much interestd in the protestant religion,
and had many scheming against her!
The King had actually signed a warrant for her arrest, when Katherine found out
about it.... that night she pretended to awaken from a nightmare screaming and
when Henry went to her she sobbed that she had dreamt he tired of her....and
assured him, that she only argued with him 1) in order to take his mind off
the pain of his leg, 2) in order that he explain dogma in the intellignet way
that only thedefender of the Faith could, and 3) she was only a silly ,
uneducated woman who would never think of arguing with her sovereign,husband
and a Male to boot!
This worked, and the next day, as the gaurds marched in to guide yet another
Queen to the tower, Henry{who legend has it, had the festering and smelly leg
on Kate's lap}, jumped up and demanded to know "whats was going on!".
Poor Catherine, saved by this, only to fall victum to Seymours wiles.
walk...@hom.net
> PPill wrote:
>
> Holbein was said to have fallen in love with
> and thus, saw her through rose colored glasses,
> and depicted her that way.
I have never read that Holbein fell in love
with Anna while painting her portrait, but
it would not be surprising that he was
charmed by her and her situation. Anna's
was literally the possibility of a Cinderella-
story, where an unknown princess with
few prospects could become the Queen
Consort in one of the most famous and
powerful Courts. Holbein was also German
by nationality. Anna's speech and dress
would not have seemed as outlandish to
his eyes as they did to the English.
One of the problems with Holbein's
portrait is that he depicted Anna "head-on."
He therefore, perhaps very unintentionally,
softened one of her least successful
features: she had a long, prominent nose
with a somewhat bulbous tip.
Holbein had depicted others in profile
and "3/4s face" by in showing Anna "head-
on" the length of her nose and the
appearance of its tip was not as noticeable
as it would have been if he had positioned
her differently. He did not necessarily
do this to intentionally mis-lead Henry.
Perhaps Anna was at her most charming
and attractive positioned as she was,
with her hands demurely clasping one
another above her waist.
Anna was strictly raised, and probably
had received few visitors in her Life,
to say nothing of a famous painter from
a powerful foreign Court. It is possible
that Holbein positioned Anna so because
she kept turning and moving to speak
with him when she was in profile or
in "3/4s face." It's entirely possible that,
her interest in the visitor, to say nothing
of what he might be able to tell her
about England, its Court, its King and
its people, inspired Anna's understandable
curiosity.
> It is frustrating that we will never know
> what these folks really looked like, because
> portrait painters, knowing which side their
> bread was buttered on, frequently flattered
> their subjects.
As I said in another post, it was not in
the interest of portrait painters from *foreign*
Courts to depict their sitters more flatteringly
than they appeared. A Clevian artist would
have had every reason to show Anna at
her finest, and perhaps to take considerable
license in capturing her likeness. But
Holbein was sent by the *English* King,
and Henry was the one paying his bill
and expenses. Holbein had no reason to
deliberately mislead Henry, especially
given Henry's famous irascibility.
It would have made no difference to
Holbein if Henry married a French princess
or a Clevian one. Holbein had drawn
Anne Boleyn, Mary Tudor (the King s
daughter) and other women of the Tudor
Court. It was not within his purvue to
decide the relative merits of each woman.
He drew and painted the women Henry
wanted him to depict.
There is another portrait of Anna, from
the workshop of Barthel Bruywn the Elder
in Köln, Germany. It possibly was painted
by Master Bruywn himself. Anna's rather
bulbous nose is clearly seen because her
face is shown in 3/4s profile, and recent
x-rays reveal that her nose is even longer
in the original painting beneath the paint
on top. It's arguable that the painter had
changed the nose because it was an honest
mistake, but it could also have been to make
Anna more attractive.
> Many of the women who were reputed to
> be great beauties don't look beautiful to me
> in portraits. Standards of beauty are a fickle
> thing, aren't they?
Yes, they are, and portraits rarely are able
to capture the personality of the sitters. It
was the fashion to depict people with grave
visages - smiles were taken to mean that
someone was of a light and frivolous nature.
Besides, smiles would have revealed the
teeth, and in that age, even the highest
born often had rotten teeth. (A discreet
way to determine the state of someone's
teeth was to ask after their breath - rotten
teeth made for atrocious breath. Henry VII,
while bride-shopping after the death of
Elizabeth of York, inquired if a certain
lady's breasts were "high and firm" and
whether her "breath was sweet or no?")
There were also the contemporary
standards of beauty. Henry and his
family had made popular "Tudor gold."
"Fair and light" were considered "good"
(and would continue to be, for centuries)
whereas dark was considered "bad."
Anne Boleyn's raven tresses were
lightened in her famous "B" portrait
(in which she is wearing a necklace
with her monogram in gold with three
pearls hanging from the "B") to show
auburn highlights, when Anne was famous
for the inky black of her hair and eyes.
Christina of Denmark, like Anne, had
a somewhat darkish complexion, but
though contemporaries describe her
"brown face," her portrait shows the
more desirable pale white.
Jane Seymour's portrait shows a
thick roll of flesh beneath her chin, but
plumpness, in that age, was thought
to bespeak fertility. Henry later
complained of Anne Boleyn being
a "thin, cantankerous old nag," but
did not complain of Catherine of
Aragon's weight gain (evidently she
gained weight with each pregnancy
and was very short besides, there
are unkind contemporary accounts
that describe Catherine as Henry's
"old, deformed wife.") Katheryn Howard
was shorter still, as was considered
plump and pinchable.
Beauty was not only subjective, and
according to the different perspectives
of different nations, it was also very
often intertwined with the ability of
a woman to bear healthy sons. A
fertile woman held a certain cachet.
A woman could have the plainest
face, but if she had given her Royal
husband sons and otherwise performed
her other "queenly duties" well, she
was seen as admirable.
Claude of France limped and had
a deformed foot. But since she was
almost constantly pregnant during her
10 year marriage to François I,
she was seen as an unqualified
success as Queen Consort of
France.
Truly deformed or damaged Royal
daughters were often hidden away
in convents. One of the reasons for
this was that handicaps were seen
as evidence of the displeasure of God.
If a woman lost her sight, it could be
taken to mean that God was punishing
her for her sins. A deformed baby
was the punishment of God for the
sins of one or both of the parents.
Some handicaps could be hidden or
"glossed over" - a retarded princess
was not a problem, as long as she
was fertile. If not, it was an easy
dispensation to be rid of her. The
last Habsburg King of Spain, Carlos II,
was a genetic mess from centuries
of inbreeding, but still, brides were
sought for him and he reigned.
His portraits- by Habsburg painters,
of course - do not accurately depict
his many physical problems that
were detailed in contemporary
accounts.
Anna of Cleves did not appeal to
Henry in the crucial window of
opportunity when she "had" to -
right after she met him. This was
probably also enhanced by the
fact that Anna, unprepared for
any "surprises" and certainly not
versed in the courtly "games"
Henry liked to play, failed to be
"bowled over" by the King, who was,
at the time of their meeting, long
past his own prime.
Henry had decided to first meet
Anna in disguise. It was a ruse
that would have been instantly
familiar to Catherine of Aragon,
and Anne Boleyn and Jane
Seymour would have recognized
the "game" fairly quickly, too.
The unspoken "rules" were that
the Royal lady greeted her "visitor"
though he might appear in the
guise of Robin Hood or whomever.
She would then entertain him;
bid her musicians to play and
tasty treats to be offered. She
would then effect great surprise when
lo! Her "visitor" turned out to be
the King, often accompanied by
his gentlemen, also in disguise.
Henry disguised himself as a
servant and had himself admitted
to Anna s presence with the ploy
of delivering a letter and gift from
the King to his fianceé. Anna
received him and treated him like
the servant she thought he was - she
was polite, but her interest was in,
and her attention on, the stated
purpose of the visit, not its bearer.
It was an inauspicious beginning.
Henry was stunned - accounts do
not mention he immediately
complained about her appearance,
more that he was unhappy with her
reaction. She did not recognize
the "game" and failed to be thrilled
when he revealed himself.
There was a problem with her
appearance. She had had a terrible
Channel crossing, and her visage
was not at its best. She appeared
tired and even somewhat green
from the experience, and observers
noted her complexion was darker
than the desired perfect white.
For her part, Anna was embarrassed -
she had treated the King as a servant,
and felt badly. She had been unprepared
for Henry's age and appearance -
though he had seen her portrait, this
was very likely the first time she laid
eyes on him. Henry, at 48, was nearly
twice Anna's age (of 25 - Anna was
rather old for a first marriage of a
princess, which says something about
her options in Cleves.) Though not as
grotesque as he would become, Henry
was certain past the stage where he
had been described as "the most
handsome Prince in Christendom."
Poor first impressions are hard to
overcome. It is arguable that Anna's
fate might have been different had
she recognized the "game" and
when Henry revealed himself, stated
herself overwhelmed by his beauty
and the great good luck she had to
be affianced to him. As it was, she
immediately curtsied to the floor,
and the King raised her, and there
were attempts to communicate.
Encumbered by the language problem,
the relative "strangeness" of her dress
and her failure to "play the game,"
Anna was at a distinct disadvantage.
To Henry, Anna had appeared "bored"
when he had appeared in his guise
(he also was announced to be bringing
a New Year's gift to the King's bride.)
Not meeting the visitor's eye, Anna
had continued to modestly look out
a window, further giving the appearance
of disinterest in her visitor. Making
the matters worse, the visitor embraced
her - this had to have come as a shock
to Anna, who had likely never touched
a man outside a member of her own
family. It would seem that the servant
sent by the King took liberties, or the
English Court was a much freer one
than anyone had warned her.
When Henry left the room, leaving
the stunned and uncertain Anna behind,
he stated, "I like her not."
However, it says something that when
Henry went about trying to prevent
the marriage, and later, when he
went through the actions to end it,
he did not blame Holbein. Had Holbein s
portrait been completely misleading,
he could have easily - and justifiably -
done this.
For whatever reason, and how much
Anna's actions discomfited him, Henry
had not been attracted by Anna. The
essential erotic element of attraction
had been missing, and Henry refused
to consummate the marriage. He did
blame Anna for this, though his
conclusions drawn from her undressed
appearance about her chastity were
erroneous - Henry later destroyed
whatever credibility he might have had
in this area by later proclaiming Katheryn
Howard virginal when she had not been.
Henry parted from Anna on good terms
(considering the situation) and remained on
good terms with the woman henceforth
termed "His Majesty's dearest sister."
Holbein remained in Henry's employ until his
own death, three years later, during an
outbreak of plague in London. It was
Thomas Cromwell, who had encouraged
the Clevian match (though he had not
painted her portrait) who paid the ultimate
price for misleading Henry on the very day
that the newly-divorced King took Anna's
lady-in-waiting as his fifth wife.
Copyright Š 2000 C.E. Metz-Longinette-Gahring
LostNgl
whatever credibility he might have had
in this area by later proclaiming Katheryn
Howard virginal when she had not been.
Not to mention his first wife. Did Arthur or was he indeed too "sickly"?
walk...@hom.net
LostNgl's post with some questions I
received in some e-mails on the same
subject. :)
> LostNgl wrote:
>
> Parr had not shown herself to be preggers,
> and the piggy little eyes were getting piggier!!!
marriage to Henry VIII in 1543, that Catherine
Parr was barren, as she had not become
pregnant during either of her previous
marriages.
Catherine is often described as having been
married to two elderly men before her
marriage to Henry. However, her first husband,
Edward de Burgh, the 2nd Baron Borough, was
around Catherine's age, possibly a few years
older at the most. Catherine was 17 at the
time of her first marriage. Another canard is
that Borough was insane. There is no
evidence that Borough, while sickly, was
actually crazy.
The marriage did not last long; Borough's date
of death is variously given as 1529 and 1532.
At any rate, Catherine was widowed and there
was no issue from her first marriage.
Her second husband, John Nevill, the 3rd Baron
Latimer, was inarguably older than Catherine,
though hardly "an old man." He was about
40 when he and the 21 year old Catherine
married in 1533. Catherine was his third wife.
The idea that Catherine was barren was bolstered
by the fact that Latimer had fathered children,
but despite the fact that Catherine and he were
married for 10 years, they would have no
children together. Catherine was an excellent
stepmother to the Latimer children. Years later,
one of them, Margaret, would remember
Catherine in her will, saying, "I was never able
to render her grace sufficient thanks for the
godly education and tender love and bountiful
goodness which I have ever more found in her."
Latimer got involved in the "Pilgrimage of
Grace," and though he survived the sweeping
executions that took place afterwards, his
health never recovered from the strain of
his disgrace and imprisonment. He died in
March 1543, by which time Catherine had
caught the eye of both Henry VIII and Thomas
Seymour.
It was during Latimer's final illness that Seymour
and Catherine had been taken with one another,
but Henry chose Catherine as his valentine in
February 1543 and both Catherine and Seymour
knew that Henry's suit could not be denied.
A mere four months after her second husband's
death, Catherine, at the age of 31, was Henry's
sixth bride and Queen Consort of England.
She was middle-aged by the standards of the
time, but since she had failed to become
pregnant before (and especially since it was
known that Latimer had children) it was
assumed that Catherine would not bear
Henry a son.
Henry, of course, hoped otherwise, but he
was well aware that given Catherine's
history, it was unlikely.
Catherine's measure was that she had been
a good, loyal and submissive wife to her
previous husbands. After the debacle
of Katheryn Howard, it was hoped she would
continue in the same vein as she had before.
After all, she had proved herself an
excellent stepmother, a thrifty manageress
of a large household and a good nurse.
Just what Henry needed, it was thought.
No more flighty young girls likely to cuckold
the King.
If it was not the infatuation Henry had felt
for Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn,
Jane Seymour or Katheryn Howard, neither
was it a bloodless match like Anna of Cleves.
Henry was fond of her and she appeared to
be good Queen Consort material.
Henry was massively past his prime, and
did indeed have little piggy eyes set in
his chubby face. "The most handsome Prince
in Christendom" now more resembled "King
Potato Head." The once shapely legs of
which he had been so proud were ulcerated
and weak, her physique was bloated. He
was short-tempered and prone to over-
indulgence. Everyone knew that he had
discarded four wives, two by execution.
He was not promising material, but he was
the King, and as such, could not be
denied.
> Also, Queen Catherine, Like AB was much
> and had many scheming against her!
unpopular) but there was also the jousting
that went on by people hoping to dislodge
her in the hopes of interesting Henry in
their own candidates, who, of course, would
support their agendas.
Henry's marital track record had proved
that he could rid himself of a wife with
relative ease. He had discarded two
Royally-born wives, as well as elevated
three commoners. This made the field
more open to candidates that previously
were unlikely to have even been
considered.
There is a story that Catherine was
horrified that Henry proposed to her, and
her piety notwithstanding, she begged to
become his mistress rather than face
the dangers of becoming his wife.
Catherine would have been aware of
the dangers - that she instantly become
the target of political intrigue, personally-
motivated and not - but she was also
aware of the benefits. Catherine had
been rather upwardly-mobile, and
probably confident that she could weather
the pitfalls of marriage to Henry. After
all, she was experienced, twice-married
adult woman, as well has having been
a lady of the Court.
> The King had actually signed a warrant for
> her arrest, when Katherine found out
> about it....
doctor had leaked the story to an advisor
supportive of Catherine. A copy of the
charges were dropped outside of Catherine's
rooms, where she would be certain to
learn of them.
She did.
> that night she pretended to awaken from a
> nightmare screaming and when Henry went
> to her she sobbed that she had dreamt he
> tired of her....and assured him, that she only
> argued with him 1) in order to take his mind
> off the pain of his leg, 2) in order that he
> the defender of the Faith could, and 3) she
> was only a silly ,uneducated woman who would
> never think of arguing with her sovereign,
Catherine actually rushed for a face-to-face
with Henry, and he greeted her with plans
for a theological discussion. Catherine,
forewarned, immediately recognized the
trap, and reacted accordingly.
> This worked, and the next day, as the guards
> marched in to guide yet another Queen to the
> festering and smelly leg on Kate's lap), jumped
> up and demanded to know "whats was going
> on!".
had come to arrest her, and doubtless they
were amazed that the King, who had so
recently given that order, had obviously
changed his mind, and dispatched them with
physical and verbal abuse.
It was noted that Catherine often took Henry's
leg onto her lap, especially since she was
very "clothes mad" and enjoyed the tons of
pretty gowns and sumptuous ornaments she
received through her marriage to Henry.
Henry loved such devoted nursing, though
Henry expressed no desire to see Catherine
as he lay dying and she was kept from his
bedside.
Depending on which legend one wants to
believe, the dying Henry called for one of
his first three wives. There are those that
believe that he fancied himself back in Time,
married to Catherine of Aragon. Others have
it that Henry was haunted by his treatment of
Anne Boleyn, that he called out, "Sweetheart!
Forgive!" and even that Anne's ghost, her
severed head balanced on her neck with
a slash of red, appeared to the dying King.
Still others believed he addressed his "one
true wife," the mild Jane Seymour, mother
of his son.
> Poor Catherine, saved by this, only to fall
Her fourth and final marriage proved that
it was not a question of Catherine s fertility,
but of the sperm of her husband. To the
surprise of everyone, Catherine's quick
remarriage to the ambitious Thomas
Seymour resulted in a pregnancy.
Unfortunately, Seymour was not as personally
faithful as Catherine, and he indulged in
many outrageous behaviours, including
very questionable behaviour with Catherine's
stepdaughter, the lady Elizabeth (the future
Elizabeth I.) There were many who believed
that Seymour actually seduced Elizabeth,
some even believed that Elizabeth bore
Seymour a child in deepest secrecy. There
is also a school of thought that ascribes
Elizabeth's future reluctance to commit to
a man and marry had its roots in her doomed
relationship with Seymour.
Whatever the extent of Seymour and
Elizabeth's relationship, Catherine sent
the stepchild she had loved away. There
was a scandal. Catherine had, in some
kind of wifely "support" of Seymour's
behaviour, had participated in some very
questionable "teasing" of Elizabeth,
probably to give it the appearance of
all being "in good fun." Whatever her
motivations, Catherine, who had finally
married for love, could not have relished
her husband's attentions to the teenage
Elizabeth in her own house, under her
very nose.
Catherine's pregnancy did not end
happily. After a long labour, Catherine
delivered a daughter she named Mary.
Soon after, she contracted puerperal fever,
and in the accompanying delirium,
accused her husband of causing her
current condition. However, as was the
disease's course, she passed out of
the delirium and withdrew her accusations,
calmly dictating her will and requesting
the strict observance of her desire to be
buried as a Protestant. (It was during
the reign of her hyperly-Protestant stepson
Edward VI, so this was not a problem.)
She left everything to her husband and
Thomas was grief-stricken at her death.
His grief was probably bound up in his
guilt over his treatment of her, as well
as the fact that her death removed a
certain amount of protection: Seymour
had many enemies, and his widowed
status meant he could easily be said
to be plotting to marry one of the King's
half-sisters (he did have such ambitions,
but never made undeniable moves to
realize them. In any event, both ladies
refused to have anything to do with him,
recognizing the danger that was inextricably
bound up with him.)
Thomas Seymour was executed by the
order of his nephew on 10 March 1549.
Elizabeth commented there hath died
"on this date a man of great wit and
very little judgement."
His daughter by Catherine, Mary, was
thus orphaned at the age of seven months.
She was transferred to the custody of
Catherine's close friend Katherine
Willoughby, the widowed Duchess of
Suffolk (who, like Catherine Parr, had
been a "sixth wife" who had survived
a much-married husband.)
Though some English families claim
descent from "the Queen's child," there
are no bonafide accounts of little
Mary Seymour past the age of two,
and she is believed to have died in
childhood.
Catherine's ghost is believed to haunt
her last home at Sudeley Castle,
especially the nursery. The Queen is
thought be "looking" for the baby she
left behind at her death, almost 453
years ago.
Waldt...@webtv.net
books about anna of cleve and found out that she had a catholic funeral
she died in mary's reign . anna was very good friend's with her and
also Elizabeth.anna of cleve was burrid in westminster abby and there is
still part of her toomb visible according to the book.she also received
at her divorce from henry quite a loot including richmond she received
most of thomas cromwell's properties and also nickolas carew's. but she
also liked to spend money and always cried "poor" .
servus,tschuess,baba austrian by
chance, AMERICAN by CHOICE,
VIENNESE FOREVER
BZ Lane
Thank you very much for the detailed reply via email.Holbein was a
fascinating as well as a talented man.The colours from his palette have
endured well and remain warm and vital.I was glad to learn some new
things about him from you.
BZ
MarleneKoenig
>Not to mention his first wife. Did Arthur or was he indeed too "sickly"?
>
There is a very good description of this subject in the new biography about
Henry VIII's sisters.
I loved being a wife. I don't know how to be a widow.
walk...@hom.net
> > I (walkuere) wrote:
> >
> > Henry later destroyed whatever
> > credibility he might have had
> > in this area by later proclaiming
> > Katheryn Howard virginal when she
> > had not been.
> LostNgl wrote:
>
> Not to mention his first wife. Did Arthur
> or was he indeed too "sickly"?
Henry had some pretty flaky ideas of
what "guaranteed" virginity. His complaints
about Anna of Cleves show that he at
least saw her (or felt her) naked from
the waist up. According to Henry, Anna
had slack breasts and a flabby belly, and
he took this as "proof" that she was not
virginal.
It evidently did not cross his mind that
Anna, the product of an "appropriately"
sedate lifestyle as a cloistered German
princess, was not likely to have the
muscles of an athlete. It can be surmised
that Henry liked a "tight" body, and Anna
was soft. He had not the courage to
further investigate.
It is likely that Anna, who had probably
never ridden a horse nor participated in
any activity that could have torn her
hymen, would have still had a hymen for
Henry to break on the wedding night.
Women who are gymnasts or equestriennes
can often break their hymens without
having had sexual intercourse.
Henry evidently found the plump and
pinchable Katheryn Howard more to his
liking, and she was far from virginal.
The question as to whether or not Arthur
of Wales and Catherine of Aragon "did the
deed" is one of the great historical
mysteries, as it was then.
First of all, Arthur was probably not as
sickly as popularly believed. Ferdinand
and Isabella were hardly likely to have
wasted a marriageable daughter on an
alliance that would certain to be short-
lived. While not as famously robust as
his chubby, playful little brother (Henry)
contemporary accounts do not depict
Arthur as being in imminent danger of
dying, nor certain to die young.
Ferdinand and Isabella were staking
Catherine on the possibility that she
would become Queen Consort of England
and bear Arthur a brood of half-Spanish
children. They were certainly cautious
(and ambitious) about whom they matched
their extremely marriageable daughters
with in the cases of Catherine s sisters
(only María had been initially left out of
the "future Queens' Club" but this was
remedied by the demise of her eldest
sister, Isabella, whose widower María
married. Isabella herself had been
married to two successive Kings of
Portigal.)
According to Arthur, he and Catherine
did indeed consummate the marriage.
He is said to have said, famously, "give
me to drink, Sirs! For I have this night
been deep in the midst of Spain! And
aye, it was thirsty work!"
How much of that was bravado, said
by a teenaged boy eager to be treated
and seen as a man? Legally, as a
married man, Arthur was an adult (and
likewise was Catherine, by virtue of
her marriage.) However, Henry VII treated
his sons with the treatment most Royal
men accorded their daughters: they were
almost cloistered. Neither Arthur nor
Henry were likely to have lost their
virginity before their marriages, which
was unusual for Royal men of their
time, unless they had been married in
extreme youth (which neither Arthur,
at fifteen, nor Henry, at eighteen, were,
relatively speaking.)
Though Henry's sons were kept under
far closer wraps than their peers did
not mean they were not exposed to the
ribald jokes and tales of the English
Court. Sex, especially among gentlemen,
was frankly discussed. More so than
marriage, which could be contracted
when the parties reached the canonical
minimum of 12, sexual intercourse was
the ultimate rite of passage. Some
marriages were never consummated,
owing to any number of problems (the
prohibitions of parents, the immaturity -
or inability - of one of the married
partners, the homosexuality of one of
the members - most often the male -
etc usw.)
At any rate, Arthur's words were
remembered, and at the hearing
examining the validity of the marriage
of Catherine and Henry, they were
introduced into evidence as "proof" of
the marriage of 1501 having been
consummated in full.
However, Catherine, to her dying day,
had declared that she had been a
virgin on the day she married Henry VIII
in 1509.
For my money, she was. Catherine was
pious in the extreme. She truly believed
that intentional falsehoods would be
punished by God. She also was in a
position, having been successfully
impregnated by Henry several times, to
have appreciated the difference between
whatever fumblings may have taken
place between her and Arthur and full
sexual intercourse.
In fact, Catherine, during the protracted
divorce proceedings (in effect, Henry
was actually asking for an annulment,
as an annulment would "prove" that no
valid marriage had ever existed, whereas
a divorce tacitly admitted there had
existed a marriage which was ending)
challenged Henry. She put it to Henry
to publicly declare whether she had been
a "maid or no" at the time of their
marriage, putting it to his conscience.
It says something that Henry declined to
answer.
Since Henry had not only slept with
Catherine but at least two other women
(a French girl named Etiennette La Baume
whom he had met during a trip to
Flanders in 1513, and Bessie Blount, by
whom he had an illegitimate son) he
could be presumed to have known the
difference between a virgin and a woman
who had previously had sex. (I left
Anne Boleyn from the list because it is
likely, given the almost complete lack of
birth control at the time, aside from very
primitive measures, that Anne Boleyn did
not permit Henry the "ultimate honour"
until sometime during the Fall or Winter
of 1532, as she gave birth to Elizabeth in
September 1533. This would mean that
in May 1527, when the hearings were
being held, Anne was, presumably, still
a virgin.)
The sticking problem was that the Papal
dispensation given in 1503 when there
was a possibility that the widowed Princess
of Wales (Catherine) might marry her
late husband's brother (Henry) the
dispensation allowed for the marriage of
the Prince and Princess of Wales (Arthur
and Catherine) to have "perhaps"
("forsitan" in Latin) been consummated.
This one little word would later cause
Catherine no end of trouble.
Antonia Fraser, in her magnificent book,
"The Wives of Henry VIII" makes an
excellent argument for the marriage of
1501 to have been unconsummated.
Marriages were not always immediately
consummated, especially when the
parties were considered young. It was
the decision of the parents as to when
the "time was right."
There is also the fact that Catherine and
Arthur did not immediately live their
lives together, although they were legally
man and wife. Originally, after a short
period after their wedding, they were
separated. It was only economy (great
personages required ceremony and
households of their own, and if a
married couple lived together, most of
their expenses could be cut in half)
that inspired Henry VII to allow Catherine
to live with Arthur in the Marches of
Wales, where he went to live in residence
as the Prince of Wales. Soon after
Catherine's arrival to join her husband at
Ludlow Castle in Wales, both she and
Arthur fell ill with the dread "sweating
sickness."
Arthur's health was never robust, but
while he was not as delicate as has often
been supposed, he was not robust, either.
Many historians concluded he had
tuberculosis, but there is no contemporary
support for that diagnosis - Arthur is
not described as having any of the tell-
tale signs of that disease, although,
again, he was never considered to be
robustly healthy. Tuberculosis is only a
"maybe" at best. Another possibility is
plague - there was an outbreak of that
medevial scourge in Wales at the time
of Arthur and Catherine's tenure there.
However, whatever the true cause, both
Arthur and Catherine fell ill. Arguably
owing to a weakened constitution, Arthur
did not survive. Catherine was so weak
and ill that she was unable to attend her
husband's funeral, and it was only after
the fact that Queen Elizabeth of York
sent for the young widow to be brought
back to London.
The hopes began that Catherine might
bear Arthur a posthumous child, but
Catherine and her duenna were steadfast
in their assertions that, as the marriage
was unconsummated, this was impossible.
The word "forsitan" had been inserted at
the insistence of Catherine's father in the
Papal dispensation. He believed this would
protect Catherine's chances to become
Prince Henry's bride. It had nothing to do
with Catherine s assertions, nor, to be
blunt, with any love for his widowed daughter,
and everything to do with his hopes to
preserve the Anglo-Spanish alliance. With
the addition of "forsitan," it didn t matter
what happened between Arthur and Catherine
(whose marriage had created a "degree of
affinity" and thus made her a "relation"
of her possible husband, Prince Henry) during
their brief marriage: the Pope had okayed the
marriage.
Henry and his lawyers, as well as Cardinal
Wolsey, would make cruel use of this
word in the times to come. Why, they argued,
would Ferdinand have pressed for the
"forsitan" if there was no possibility that
his daughter was no longer a virgin? The
possibility that she had must have existed!
Catherine was steadfast in her denial that
there was any such possibility, and tellingly,
Henry never "gave her the lie." Had the
situation been otherwise, Henry, who had
so candidly discussed such personal
events as his own nocturnal ejaculations,
would have hardly missed the opportunity.
Copyright© 2000 C.E. Metz-Longinette-Gahring
JLickl4682
Mare. But she was savy in that she accepted Henry's terms of divorce and took
the title of Princess Dowager. She kept
her head (no pun intended) and she and
Henry were great friends until he died.
Susan Cohen
walk...@hom.net wrote:
> Her fourth and final marriage proved that
> it was not a question of Catherine s fertility,
> but of the sperm of her husband. To the
> surprise of everyone, Catherine's quick
> remarriage to the ambitious Thomas
> Seymour resulted in a pregnancy.
It could have been a menopause baby, where otherwise
infertile women will benefit by the "last ditch effort" the
female body gives off at this point.
Susan
PPill
JLickl4682 wrote:
Beautifully synopsized. That is exactly what I remember!
PPill
Susan Cohen
walk...@hom.net wrote:
I've spoken with medical personael who say that the
"horseback riding" story is what some people resort to
when they can come up with no other explanation for
what *should* be there (i.e., not a lie), that it's not very
easy for a small *inside* membrane to break from
*any* exercise. Also, the membrane can be so thin it just
breaks on its own from the growth of the woman, or so
thick that it needs to be medically snipped.
> Henry evidently found the plump and
> pinchable Katheryn Howard more to his
> liking, and she was far from virginal.
Or a very good actress with a fruite knife & a ready heel...
(Got that from "Norah Lofts" (I think) about Catharine &
Arthur)
> According to Arthur, he and Catherine
> did indeed consummate the marriage.
> He is said to have said, famously, "give
> me to drink, Sirs! For I have this night
> been deep in the midst of Spain! And
> aye, it was thirsty work!"
>
> Though Henry's sons were kept under
> far closer wraps than their peers did
> not mean they were not exposed to the
> ribald jokes and tales of the English
> Court.
Well, Arthur certainly managed to pick up enough
if he said the above!! To me it sounds like he was
laying it on a little thick...
> Since Henry had not only slept with
> Catherine but at least two other women
> (a French girl named Etiennette La Baume
> whom he had met during a trip to
> Flanders in 1513, and Bessie Blount, by
> whom he had an illegitimate son) he
> could be presumed to have known the
> difference between a virgin and a woman
> who had previously had sex.
Of course, you would have to know whether one of
these girls had been a virgin.
In Margaret George's novel, she suggests that he didn't
know the difference & that's why he didn't say anything.
Yes, it's a novel, but it doesn't mean it's not just as good
a theory as
Her justifications for his not knowing boil down mostly to
his having been kept tightly under the King's wing - you had
to go through HVII's bedchamber to get to Harry's. The
other "reasons" are, to my mind, a little lame - that he was
destined for the church [lots of churchmen didn't care about
their vows as they, too, had been stuck in the church because
they were younger sons - which leads to..], he was a younger
son & therefore of no account & the girls didn't chase him.
Ha - he was gorgeous and a prince - any woman willing to
sleep her way to the top (or thereabouts) would have launched
herself at him like a catapault.
> (I left
> Anne Boleyn from the list because it is
> likely, given the almost complete lack of
> birth control at the time, aside from very
> primitive measures, that Anne Boleyn did
> not permit Henry the "ultimate honour"
> until sometime during the Fall or Winter
> of 1532, as she gave birth to Elizabeth in
> September 1533. This would mean that
> in May 1527, when the hearings were
> being held, Anne was, presumably, still
> a virgin.)
And given that she was always held to be so shrewd,
it's a safe bet she was still holding out.
> The hopes began that Catherine might
> bear Arthur a posthumous child, but
> Catherine and her duenna were steadfast
> in their assertions that, as the marriage
> was unconsummated, this was impossible.
To my mind, this is another reason to believe that she
was telling the truth - as a truly wedded widow, she
would have been undeniably due her dower rights (of
which so much was made by greedy HVII).
> Catherine was steadfast in her denial that
> there was any such possibility, and tellingly,
> Henry never "gave her the lie." Had the
> situation been otherwise, Henry, who had
> so candidly discussed such personal
> events as his own nocturnal ejaculations,
> would have hardly missed the opportunity.
Gee, I'm glad I missed those bon mots.
Susan
the Fleming
>
>
>walk...@hom.net wrote:
>
>> Her fourth and final marriage proved that
>> it was not a question of Catherine s fertility,
>> but of the sperm of her husband. To the
>> surprise of everyone, Catherine's quick
>> remarriage to the ambitious Thomas
>> Seymour resulted in a pregnancy.
>
>infertile women will benefit by the "last ditch effort" the
>female body gives off at this point.
>
>Susan
That throws up an interesting question, Susan. I know that by convention
(of the times) Catherine at 31 was probably assumed to be beyond
child-bearing years, or at least to be a matron, but - laying aside for a
moment the fact that on average the expected life span was so much shorter
in those days - did menopause occur earlier than it does nowadays?
the Fleming
(fascinated at the fluctuations in age [maturing, ageing] matters
over the decades/centuries)
walk...@hom.net
> > > walk...@hom.net wrote:
> > >
> > > Her fourth and final marriage proved that
> > > it was not a question of Catherine s fertility,
> > > but of the sperm of her husband. To the
> > > surprise of everyone, Catherine's quick
> > > remarriage to the ambitious Thomas
> > > Seymour resulted in a pregnancy.
> > Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > It could have been a menopause baby, where
> > otherwise infertile women will benefit by the
> > "last ditch effort" the female body gives off at
> > this point.
> The Fleming wrote:
>
> That throws up an interesting question, Susan.
> I know that by convention (of the times) Catherine
> at 31 was probably assumed to be beyond
> child-bearing years, or at least to be a matron,
> but - laying aside for a moment the fact that on
> average the expected life span was so much
> shorter in those days - did menopause occur
> earlier than it does nowadays?
Okay, let s look at this point by point.
In the broadest sense, "anything's possible"
and there are many things about the Tudor and
other eras which we will never know for
absolutely, positively, beyond-a-doubt
certainty.
Whether or not Catherine Parr was truly
infertile is subjective. What is factual
is that she was presumed to be at the time
of her marriage to Henry VIII by the people
of her time. This conclusion was based on
the hypothesis that as Catherine had been
married twice before, and one of those
husbands had fathered children, and yet
she had never become pregnant.
In the age in which she lived, women were
at a distinct disadvantage vis-a-vis the
creation of children. In a marriage,
especially one where the husband "looked"
okay, if there failed to be children,
there was often the immediate assumption
that this failure to procreate rested with
the woman. This was not a time where there
was any understanding of sperm and how it
could be effected by any number of things,
such as the male concerned having suffered
diseases like mumps (which can cause
sterility in males.) As I said before,
women were considered responsible for the
gender of the child.
Catherine was also given leeway for her
"failure" during her marriage to Henry
because, though it certainly was not
openly discussed (by any one who had a
gram of sense) Henry had been... ahemm...
having "trouble" since his marriage to
Anne Boleyn.
Naturally, Henry was not in any hurry
to publicize this, though, on occasion,
he was put in the position of "having
protested too much." Some of his
accusations against Anne Boleyn of
sorcery had to do with the fact that
the King couldn't perform at some
crucial moments. (Anne was not so
polite that she did not take note of
this.) Henry once again made reference
to this as a reason for his divorce
from Anna of Cleves, though again, it
wasn't the "fault" of the Great I-Ham,
it was the "fault" of the woman
concerned.
Henry went through a brief sexual
renaissance with Katheryn Howard, but
even then, it was obvious the King was
past his prime. Whereas his teenage
bride could dance all night - and did -
the King was forced by the limitations
of his aged and swollen body to retire
early. And then there is the fact that,
though she undoubtedly gave Henry a
tumble whenever he wanted and was
"capable," Katheryn sought out other
amusements.
Another interesting fact is that Henry
said he had suffered from a tumour of
the testicles. He also claimed that he
recognized this, came up with a plan of
treatment and cured himself.
A fact of nature is that men are fertile
for much longer than women. Today, there
are fertility drugs that can lengthen the
time of a woman's fertility and allow
menopausal women to become mothers.
However, though it has happened, it is
rare for a woman in her fifties and above
to become pregnant (and even rarer for
them to give birth to a perfectly healthy
child; the chances of chromosomal defects
rises exponentially after the age of 35.)
It is not as unusual for men of the same
age to father children.
Biologically, as I understand it, this is
possible because women have a given amount
(of course this amount varies among women)
of follicles that develop. There is no
"rhyme or reason" why the body chooses
this follicle or that to ripen at the time
of ovulation. The older the follicle, the
greater the chances that there will be
problems.
The testicles, on the other hand, are like
a bakery shop. "Sperm made fresh daily,
every day."
It was not so much that lifespans were
truly shorter in ages past as the fact
that there were far more incidences of
accidents and disease which could not be
overcome. A simple ear infection could
run wild and end up in death (as in the
case of the first husband of Mary, Queen
of Scots, François II of France.)
The biggest killer of women was
childbirth. There was nothing in the way
of "germ theory" and doctors brought the
germs from other locations and patients
right into the birthing chamber with them.
Bleeding and leeches were liberally applied
to drain "bad blood" from weakened patients
who could ill afford to lose a drop. No
one was washing their hands before touching
a patient, to say nothing of a woman into
whose body a doctor was about to put his
dirty hands.
Despite these factors, there were incidences
of women who lived to what would be
considered, even now, to be ripe old ages.
Eleanor d Aquitaine, who lived almost four
hundred years before Catherine Parr lived
into her eighties, and her life was hardly a
sedentary one. When many of her
contemporaries, male and female, were in
their graves, Eleanor was travelling hither
and yon all over Europe, including crossing
mountain ranges on her journeys. She not
only survived many childbirths, she gave
birth to her last child (the future King
John) when she was 38. The cousin of
Elizabeth I, Leticia Knollys, had five
children that survived infancy and lived to
be 94.
Back to Catherine: In the Courts of times
past, there was precious little in the way of
what we, in this age, consider privacy.
Because of the Succession, there was
great and vested interest in the Queen's
reproductive health. The dates, durations
and any anomalies of the Queen's menstrual
cycles were all duly noted. People of the
time did not understand the full process,
and confused animal fertility cycles for
human ones. With this theory, they often
mistook the time when a woman was most
fertile - there was a school of thought
that believed that a woman was infertile
two weeks after her menses, when that is
usually the time of greatest fertility -
as well as believing "old wives' tales"
such as nursing a baby was an effective
measure of contraception, when it is not.
Many a marriage treaty was held up waiting
for a girl to begin her menarche - her first
menstrual period. In Tudor times, many girls
were married off as children (Mary, Queen of
Scots, was married at the age of six.)
However, failure to begin menarche was a
reason for a marriage to be annulled.
Because there was such interest, the menarche
of great heiresses and princesses was duly
noted. Probably, somewhere, in the volumes
of correspondence that travelled between
England and Spain during the negotiations
for the marriage of Catherine of Aragon to
Arthur of Wales, or in the records within the
Spanish Court, there is mention of Catherine's
menarche.
However, Catherine Parr had not been pre-
destined for greatness. It was assumed that
the widowed Maud Parr would make the best
marriage possible for her daughter, but Maud
would have been very surprised that one
day her daughter married the King. Catherine
obviously did have a menarche - Maud would
have hardly been able to arrange even the
match she did if Catherine was known to not
have even menstruated. No man sought out
a known "problem" in a wife.
Because the fate of kingdoms did not rest
on Catherine's health, the time of
Catherine's menarche more than likely went
unrecorded.
Why the timing would be important is
because there are some known things about
the duration of a woman's fertility.
Again, for every "known," there are
exceptions. However, a common "rule of
thumb" is that the earlier a girl begins
her menarche, the longer she will be
fertile. Thus a girl who matures early,
say 11, is fertile longer than a woman who
matures later, such as 15 or 16. It would
seem the opposite would be true, if every
woman could be thought to have the same
duration of fertility, but it's not.
There was no reason for ordinary women to
marry in extreme youth. They were not in
the position to have to take advantage of
every second of fertility, even if that
fertility began when she was 12. That
that hurry to take advantage of every
moment of fertility could have adverse
effects was not often considered. A girl's
body chemistry may have been "ready,"
but her body itself was not - Henry VIII's
paternal grandmother gave birth at the age
of 12. She had no further children. Many
girls had not ended whatever growth spurt
they may have had, and their bodies were
ill-equipped to deal with the strains and
demands of pregnancy on their incompletely-
developed bodies.
Catherine Parr's first marriage did not
take place until she was 17. Because the
time of her menarche is unknown, it also
cannot be known how fast "the clock" was
ticking.
By the time of her marriage to Henry VIII,
Catherine was 31. She must have had
periods, for after Henry's death it was
wondered whether or not he had left
Catherine pregnant. Catherine's women
would have recognized infrequent periods
or "the clock winding down" in the 34
year old widowed Queen. That Catherine
quickly remarried Thomas Seymour was
considered scandalous. This was only
because she had not mourned for a length
of time before remarrying (Henry and
Catherine themselves had quickly married
after the death of her second husband, but
it can be argued that when the King said
"NOW!" mourning could be abbreviated.)
It was also because should Catherine
become immediately pregnant by Thomas
Seymour, it could be wondered whose
child she carried, since the time when she
could have conceived a time by Henry and
the time she could conceive a child by
Thomas could be thought to overlap.
Unless Catherine and Thomas were having
a sexual affair before the death of
Henry this would be impossible, as they
did not marry until five months after the
death of the King. However, Thomas pressed
for marriage - and everyone knew it -
before the body of Henry was even cold.
Thus, if Thomas could have convinced
Catherine to accept his suit IMMEDIATELY
after the death of the King, the time
period COULD have overlapped.
That there was even that concern lends
credence to the idea that, in the eyes of
Catherine's women who knew the details
of Catherine's menstrual health, Catherine
was fertile. Thus, the opinion of
Catherine's reproductive health had
changed. Before, these details had only
been known to a far smaller group of
people. In Catherine's previous
marriages, she undoubtedly had serving
women who waited on her and did her
laundry, and therefore were in a position
to know what was going on with that
aspect of Catherine's life.
Because of her previous lack of children,
outside observers, including Henry
himself, could come to the "reasonable"
conclusion that the twice-widowed
Catherine was barren. However, this
opinion could change when Catherine
joined the Royal Household and there
was thus a greater amount of people
observing that she did menstruate as
other women and that the cycles
appeared "normal." They must have
appeared so, or her waiting women would
not have concluded that there was even
a possibility that Henry could have left
Catherine pregnant at the time of her
death (this also means that the failing
King was still having sexual relations
with the Queen; the occasions when the
Royal Couple had sex, as with everything
else in their lives, was duly noted by
the people who served them.)
There was such interest in the
reproductive lives of Royal women,
especially queens, that such information
was often bought. Spies, to say nothing
of Court officials, generously "tipped"
the women who served the Queen for such
information.
Menopause was recognized. It was noted
and discussed when Catherine of Aragon
became menopausal. In fact, it was
considered one of the reasons that though
Henry still made his visits to Catherine's
rooms, and spent time in her company, they
"came together as man and wife" less and
less.
Catherine Parr was 36 at the time of her
death, 6 days after she gave birth to Mary
Seymour. There are no records, as far
as I know, that speak of her fertility
during her marriage to Thomas Seymour.
She married Thomas Seymour on 12 July
1543. Supposing that her pregnancy was
a normal one, her date of conception was
around the end of November 1547. She
gave birth to Mary on 29 August 1548.
There is some mention of the pregnancy
wearing on Catherine, who was indeed
considered "old," especially for a first
pregnancy. After leaving Catherine's
household, her step-daughter Elizabeth
wrote that she would see Catherine's
baby (she referred to it as "he")
"beaten for the trouble he hath put
[Catherine] to."
This would mean that Catherine conceived
fairly quickly (about five months) after
her marriage to Thomas Seymour.
walk...@hom.net
> > JLickl4682 wrote:
> >
> > Henry VIII said when he met Anna in
> > person that she looked like a Flanders
> > accepted Henry's terms of divorce and
> > took the title of Princess Dowager. She
> > kept her head (no pun intended) and
> > she and Henry were great friends until
> > he died.
> PPill wrote:
>
> Beautifully synopsized. That is exactly
> what I remember!
Hmmm.
Although such comments are always
remembered, they are often apocryphal.
Henry VIII is alleged to have sworn, after
seeing Anna, "they hath brought the
Flanders Mare over to [him]."
However, the source of that comment was
Bishop Burnet, who was relating it at the
end of the 17th century, long after the
deaths of Henry and Anna, and all present
at the fateful first meeting. He did not
back up his assertion that Henry said that
with any contemporary sources, and it
is very arguable Burnet fabricated the tale
out of whole cloth, knowing the end of
Henry and Anna's story.
The term "Flanders Mare" was again used
to describe Anna, this time by the 18th
century book, "Anecdotes of Painting in
England" in which he refers to her as such
while describing her famous portrait by
Holbein. He further accused Holbein of
practicing no small flattery in depicting
the Clevian princess.
Henry VIII went on record only to say, "I
like her not" and his conclusions that Anna
was not virginal. He likened his situation,
in being "forced" to marry Anna, who had
arrived not to be "approved" but to be
his bride, to being "yoked."
Apocryphal stories, especially if they are
pithy or come at decisive times, take on
a Life on their own. It is often taken for
fact that Katheryn Howard announced from
the scaffold on 13 February 1541 "I die a
Queen, but I would rather die the wife of
Culpepper." It's very romantic, in a dark
way, but it's not true. The contemporary
accounts of the doomed Queen's final
words make no mention of her love
affair. Katheryn had been determined to
"die well." She would have been foolish
to make blatant mention of one of the
crimes that had brought her to that place
and situation, and thus offend the King.
Katheryn was also aware that, though her
Life was shortly to end, her family would
live on, and basically giving the finger to
her enraged husband from the scaffold
could have serious repercussions on them.
It was also simply "not good form."
As with others executed before and after
her, Katheryn made polite mention of the
man who had ensured her doom (Henry)
and bid the people to pray for her.
As for Anna of Cleves, she was never given
the title of "Princess Dowager." The title
"Dowager" was given to widows, which Anna
was not. She was referred to as "the lady
Anna," even though she was, by birth, a
princess. She was naturalized as an English
citizen (this was done because of certain
arguments made by Catherine of Aragon
during her divorce) and given precedence
by Henry over all ladies of the Court,
excepting only the Queen (shortly to be
Wife Number Five, Katheryn Howard) any
daughters he might have by future marriages,
and his two daughters borne of his first
two marriages (Mary and Elizabeth.) He
also stipulated that Anna could not leave
the country (Anna didn't want to, so this
was not a sticking point.)
For her part, Anna always signed herself
"Anna, the daughter of Cleves." There is
an example of her penmanship and this
self-description in a Book of Hours she
gave Henry VIII.
BZ Lane
Waldt...@webtv.net Re: The Appearance of Anna of Cleves
Hi Waldtraube!
Anna received Richmond Palace?The Park alone is lovely, which is about
all that remains today.Heavens! Nicky Carew and Crommy were Wealthy
indeed.Anna was more or less "bought off" by the sound of it.It would
take a great deal of capital to keep those establishments going!!
Please email me the info on the books you are reading if they are
translated into English or ?
Always a Treat to hear from you.
Susan Cohen
walk...@hom.net wrote:
> Catherine was also given leeway for her
> "failure" during her marriage to Henry
> because, though it certainly was not
> openly discussed (by any one who had a
> gram of sense) Henry had been... ahemm...
> having "trouble" since his marriage to
> Anne Boleyn.
Oh, heck - she ws probably *picked* for that reason -
this way, no one would know that the King "couldn't"
anymore.
> Naturally, Henry was not in any hurry
> to publicize this, though, on occasion,
> he was put in the position of "having
> protested too much." Some of his
> accusations against Anne Boleyn of
> sorcery had to do with the fact that
> the King couldn't perform at some
> crucial moments. (Anne was not so
> polite that she did not take note of
> this.)
Is the story about George Boleyn making gratuitous
casual mention of this fact during his trial true?
> Henry once again made reference
> to this as a reason for his divorce
> from Anna of Cleves, though again, it
> wasn't the "fault" of the Great I-Ham,
> it was the "fault" of the woman
> concerned.
Oh yes - either she was too ugly for him, or that
"The Holy Spirit kept us from consumating, as it
would not have been a true union." Both are amusing.
> Another interesting fact is that Henry
> said he had suffered from a tumour of
> the testicles. He also claimed that he
> recognized this, came up with a plan of
> treatment and cured himself.
Oh, I'd love to hear about this (or, then again, maybe not...)
> "old wives' tales"
> such as nursing a baby was an effective
> measure of contraception, when it is not.
Well, if you have a kid hanging off your breast, it's
harder for your husband to get near you.
> Again, for every "known," there are
> exceptions. However, a common "rule of
> thumb" is that the earlier a girl begins
> her menarche, the longer she will be
> fertile. Thus a girl who matures early,
> say 11, is fertile longer than a woman who
> matures later, such as 15 or 16. It would
> seem the opposite would be true, if every
> woman could be thought to have the same
> duration of fertility, but it's not.
That would *have* to vary from individual to individual,
or even in families.
Susan
BZ Lane
walk...@hom.net The "Flanders Mare" Comment
Henry VIII said when he met Anna in
person that she looked like a Flanders Mare.
||||||||||||||||||
Candace ,
Did Anna remain in England because of the properties and wealth she
realized as Henry's ex? Or did she perhaps have a romantic reason_not
Henry but a New Love? If that were the case, a New Love, I would imagine
she couldn't remarry without forfeiting her worldly goods.So it's a bit
confusing.She wasn't permitted to leave but she wanted to remain_just
why one wonders.Many young ladies become homesick in a foreign land and
back in the Court from whence she came, her stature, divorced or no,
would have been elevated immensely.
Did she live a long life?
TIA,
BZ
walk...@hom.net
> Waldtraute wrote:
>
> walkuere great as always !!!!!
Danke schön. :)
> By coincidence I was just reading some books
> about Anna of Cleves and found out that she
> had a Catholic funeral she died in Mary's reign.
> Anna was very good friends with her and also
> Elizabeth.
Anna indeed had a Catholic funeral. Her
brother William, the Duke of Cleves, had
adopted Protestantism out of political
expedience (his land was surrounded by
the Protestant League of Princes and it
made sense for him not to leave Cleves,
which became, by virtue of his conversion,
Protestant as well, out in the political cold.)
Anna, her sister and her mother all
remained Catholic.
Many people assume that because William
had converted, and Cleves thus considered
Protestant, as well as the Henry-Anna match
being considered a "Protestant alliance"
that Anna was herself a Protestant. The
ironic thing is, both she and Henry were
Catholic, remained so and were buried as
such.
This commonality of religion made it easy
for Mary Tudor (Henry's daughter) to
become friendly with Anna. Anna also
adored the young Elizabeth. Mary was in
need of friends and Elizabeth warmed to
the attention and love of a mother-figure.
Anna gave Mary some trouble during the
latter's reign because, for financial reasons,
Anna tried to get her marriage to Henry
declared legal and valid. She was somewhat
of a "white elephant" to the two English
monarchs in whose reigns she lived after
the death of her "brother," Henry VIII.
(She did not live to see Elizabeth ascend.)
Edward VI hoped that she would marry, and
thus become the financial responsibility of
her husband, but Anna had found much
freedom in her unmarried state.
> Anna of Cleves was buried in Westminster
> Abbey and there is still part of her tomb
> visible according to the book.
Of all the wives of Henry VIII, Anna rests in
the place of "greatest honour" and in the
most magnificent tomb, although it is hard
to see, given its location.
Catherine of Aragon rests in Peterborough
Abbey. It was only long after her death
that she was given the honors befitting a
Queen. It was, in fact, Queen Mary (the
consort of George V) who arranged for
banners to be hung over Catherine's
grave and a brass grill has been added.
The vicars of Peterborough are very
protective of "our Catherine."
Anne Boleyn and Katheryn Howard lie
under the floor of the Chapel of St. Peter
ad Vincula within the Tower of London.
Now they have black-and-white marble
markers that lie flush with the floor, and
the bones presumed to be theirs are
encased in silver cylinders. The wooden
coffins (or what served as such, Anne
Boleyn's body was actually stuffed into
a wooden arrow chest) have long since
rotten away.
Jane Seymour lies in a vault with Henry
and her grave, as well as Henry is
marked with a plain slab that reads
"Jane Seymour, a Queen of Henry VIII."
The magnificent monument that
Henry planned for them went unbuilt.
Catherine Parr lies beneath a lovely
effigy in the chapel of Sudeley Castle.
So, the forgotten wife, whose story
is overlooked because of the dark
dramas of the women who flanked
her in the procession of Henry's wives
actually lies in a place most queenly.
Anna would have loved it.
> She also received at her divorce from
> Henry quite a lot, including Richmond.
> She received most of Thomas Cromwell's
> properties and also Nicholas Carew's.
> But she also liked to spend money and
> always cried "poor" .
Anna quickly acclimated to "the high life."
She thoroughly enjoyed the status she
was accorded at the English Court and
the freedom she enjoyed as a lady
of means unencumbered by a husband.
Anna spent freely. She enjoyed
gambling and became notably fond of
a drink. Her English improved (though
she would always speak with a heavy
accent) and thus made socializing
infinitely easier. She adored pretty
clothes, and was always elaborately
dressed.
She and Henry got along very well,
as Henry was predisposed to do with
people who pleased him. Their
relationship was amiable enough that
after the execution of Katheryn Howard,
it was gossiped that Henry would take
Anna back, but he married Catherine
Parr instead. (Anna was not impressed
with Henry's choice; she had hoped he
would remarry her.)
Finding herself short of funds, and Henry's
heirs resentful of paying for a "non-wife"
of their father, Anna did indeed cry poor.
As I mentioned earlier, she even pressed
for retro-active recognition of her marriage
to Henry and wanted it declared valid,
that she might share in a "widow's
portion." It did not escape Anna's notice
that Catherine Parr, Henry's actual widow,
was left well situated at his death.
Copyright© 2000 C.E. Metz-Longinette-Gahring
walk...@hom.net
> > walk...@hom.net wrote:
> >
> > Catherine was also given leeway for her
> > "failure" during her marriage to Henry
> > because, though it certainly was not
> > openly discussed (by any one who had a
> > gram of sense) Henry had been... ahemm...
> > having "trouble" since his marriage to
> > Anne Boleyn.
> Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Oh, heck - she was probably *picked* for
> that reason - this way, no one would know
> that the King "couldn't" anymore.
Initially, she was "picked" by sheer virtue
of the fact that she appealed to Henry.
There must have been something in
Catherine's appearance or demeanour
that, on some level, rang Henry's chimes.
It was seen as a plus that there would
be no problems concerning Catherine's
chastity, as she was a widow and not
expected to be virginal. The Katheryn
Howard fiasco had driven home the
point to Henry and his advisers that
"unmarried" did not equal "pure."
Additionally, there was no scandal
attached to Catherine's name. She had
been a loyal and accommodating wife
to both of her late husbands.
However, those facts were "icing on the
cake." It had to begin with Henry's
attraction. Henry had never been open
to allowing a spouse to be chosen FOR
him, HE always made the final decision.
The only wife whom he had married
without having experienced genuine
attraction, Anna of Cleves, had really
had no chance.
[... About Henry s virility problems...]
> Is the story about George Boleyn making
> gratuitous casual mention of this fact
> during his trial true?
It was Anne Boleyn who made comment
about Henry's little problem during her
trial, which meant it was entered into
the trial record. George may have obliquely
referred to it in defense of his sister,
relating the information from conversations
they probably had that mentioned the
subject.
Anne was deeply in trouble for a comment
she had made prior to her arrest that
concerned Henry s... ahhh... lack of
style and ability in Matters of the
Mattress.
> Oh yes - either she was too ugly for him,
> or that "The Holy Spirit kept us from
> consummating, as it would not have been
> a true union." Both are amusing.
It was never Henry's style to accept blame.
The ironic thing is, he truly convinced
himself of many things and would probably
been able to pass a lie detector test with
flying colours.
> > Another interesting fact is that Henry
> > said he had suffered from a tumour of
> > the testicles. He also claimed that he
> > recognized this, came up with a plan of
> > treatment and cured himself.
>
> Oh, I'd love to hear about this (or, then
> again, maybe not...)
The incident was recorded in Tudor medical
records as well as by Henry having made
mention of it. His own virility was a
sticking point with him. He once protested,
when it was suggested that perhaps it was
the Will of God that he and Catherine not
have any more children, and therefore no
sons, "Am I not a MAN, like other MEN?!"
Of course it is entirely possible that
Henry had invented, or enhanced, a
situation with the idea that it said, "I
had a problem, but I cured it!"
If Henry had had some kind of cancerous
tumour, he would have undoubtedly died.
> > "old wives' tales" such nursing a baby
> > was an effective measure of contraception,
> > when it is not.
> Well, if you have a kid hanging off your
> breast, it's harder for your husband to get
> near you.
;)
Very few highborn ladies actually nursed
their own children. The idea was, similar
to what you stated above, that once she
was past the rigours of childbed, she
was ready to get right back to the
business of procreating.
> > Again, for every "known," there are
> > exceptions. However, a common "rule of
> > thumb" is that the earlier a girl begins
> > her menarche, the longer she will be
> > fertile. Thus a girl who matures early,
> > say 11, is fertile longer than a woman who
> > matures later, such as 15 or 16. It would
> > seem the opposite would be true, if every
> > woman could be thought to have the same
> > duration of fertility, but it's not.
> That would *have* to vary from individual to
> individual, or even in families.
As it was explained to me by an OB-GYN,
the simple fact is, fertility ends somewhere
in a woman's late thirties to late forties.
It's not as if there is some mathematical
equation that can determine that women,
on the whole, are fertile for a period of
thirty years or something like that.
Where each woman falls into that period
can be dependent on many factors. There
will be, of course, women who, for some
reason or another, become prematurely
menopausal, just as there will be women who
make it into their fifties before reaching
menopause.
However, on the average, it remains a
fact that a woman who began her menarche
say, at 12, will thus have more years of
fertility than her sister who began hers at
15. Even if they both were fertile until
their late forties, the one who began earlier
has a three year "jump."
Nowadays, this "jump" is not so much of
a factor as few women seek out pregnancy
at such young ages, and drugs can allow
a woman to conceive much later than in
the past.
walk...@hom.net
> BZ Lane wrote:
>
> Candace,
>
> Did Anna remain in England because of the
> properties and wealth she realized as Henry's
> ex?
One of the stipulations of Henry and Anna's
divorce agreement was that Anna would
not "pass beyond the sea." In other words,
she had to stay in England for the rest of
her Life, unless, of course, Henry sent her
elsewhere.
Anna became a naturalized English citizen.
This was because Henry well remembered
a clever argument of Catherine of Aragon.
Catherine had argued that, if Henry's
assertions were true, and they had never
truly been married, she was not a subject
of Henry's. Therefore, Catherine remained a
Spanish citizen, which means he could
not technically command her.
It was sheer damage control. Henry had
no desire to see Anna at liberty, in a
position, if she chose, to sit up trouble
against him abroad.
William of Cleves, Anna's brother, was
eager for her to return. He protested that
the people of Cleves wanted her back.
More to the point, William wanted a
marriageable sister back, who could
be remarried at his will to further his
policies. Arguably, he could also have
been concerned about Anna's safety -
Henry had been notoriously ungenerous to
previous wives when he ended his
marriages to them.
However, with Anna's agreement to
the divorce terms, the English could
honestly inform William and Cleves that
Anna was staying in England entirely
of her own free will.
For Anna's part, it was not only a
matter of economy (for Henry's
settlement was generous - she had
agreed to his every stipulation and
therefore he was prepared to be very
generous with his "good sister") but
also of pride. She had left Cleves to
become a Queen Consort of a powerful
country (arguably, the world had three
"Super Powers" at the time - England,
France and Spain.) To return to
Cleves after her divorce would be
humiliating, the bride returned like
an unwanted Christmas present that
didn't "fit." News would soon travel
of the King's interest in Anna's
lady-in-waiting and his quick remarriage.
How would that look for Anna? A mere
lady-in-waiting of average birth had
been preferred to the Clevian princess.
> Or did she perhaps have a romantic
> reason - not Henry, but a new love?
> If that were the case, a new love, I
> would imagine she couldn't remarry
> without forfeiting her worldly goods.
Henry's settlement, taken on its face,
looks like a simple matter of his
"buying Anna off." However, one must
understand the customs and traditions
of the time, which made Henry's offer
very attractive indeed.
Anna went from being a pawn of her
brother to the status of a wife, which
means she was the property of her
husband. She had thus passed from the
domination and rule of one man to that
of another.
With Henry's offer, Anna became a
independent lady of means. She
would no longer have to answer to
any man; she would be able to do
what she pleased. Usually, women
were only able to achieve this kind
of status if they were widowed. Of
course, Anna would be subject to
Henry, but Henry was not likely to
object to any innocent activities of
Anna's.
A return to Cleves meant a return
to William's "possession." The only
thing Anna lost by agreeing to her
divorce was Henry and the title of
Queen. Neither was worth fighting
for, given the risks.
> So it's a bit confusing.She wasn't
> permitted to leave but she wanted to
> remain - just why one wonders.
Because it allowed her to, as much
as a woman could of her time, be in
charge of her own destiny. She
could not be forced to marry, nor
deprived of her new status (or Life)
if she failed to bear a child.
> Many young ladies become homesick
> in a foreign land and back in the Court
> from whence she came, her stature,
> divorced or no, would have been elevated
> immensely.
To my knowledge, Anna only felt a
longing for home AFTER the death of
Henry when her financial situation
suffered. Before then, it was somewhat
of a case of "country girl comes to
the big city." Cleves was a backwater
of European Royalty and there, Anna
had led a cloistered Life. When she
came to England, first she was a Queen
and then she was, as I said, an
independent lady of means with a Royal
title and a connection to the Court. She
happily participated in all the social
amusements that her station and
connection offered. Who would long for
little Cleves when there were balls and
masques to attend? When her new
estates and Henry s purse afforded her
pretty clothes and jewels? Whereas
once she had spent hours in endless
needlework projects, now she could
sew when she liked, but "party" all she
wanted.
Anna lost her "special status" when
Henry died. She was neither wife nor
widow, and Henry had not left her a
legacy in his will. She became an
inconvenient financial reminder of
the father of the next sovereigns
(Edward VI and Mary I) chequered marital
history. Neither Edward nor Mary was
eager to continue to financially support
a woman who was not technically a member
of the Royal Family, nor had a place
after their father's death. For Anna,
the "fun" ended with Henry's Life.
A return to Cleves would not have made
her appear to be elevated in status.
She would be put in the humiliating
position of being a princess "returned
to sender" and no future match could
have equalled the one she had made
with Henry.
> Did she live a long life?
Anna of Cleves died on 17 July 1557,
two months before she would have
reached her 42nd birthday. Given the
times in which she lived, it was an
average lifespan for a woman.
Susan Cohen
walk...@hom.net wrote:
> However, on the average, it remains a
> fact that a woman who began her menarche
> say, at 12, will thus have more years of
> fertility than her sister who began hers at
> 15. Even if they both were fertile until
> their late forties, the one who began earlier
> has a three year "jump."
I totally misunderstood what you said.
I thought you were saying that women who started
early last longer *chronologically* than women who
start later - as in, if you start at 12, you will last into
say, your late forties, but if you start at 16, you'll only
last until your mid thirties. Of *course* an earlier
start means a longer period.
Susan
Waldt...@webtv.net
received all that property PLUS 4000pound's a year why was she crying
'POOR'i would think that all these properties gave her more income.and
maybe bringing it close to 10000 pounds ? or did she just have the use
but no income from the same? and also does anybody know the value of the
pound at that time?thanks
walk...@hom.net
> Waldtraute wrote:
>
> Walkuere great posting !!!! superb!!!!
Du bist immer so süß zu mir. :)
> Now I have a question: since Anna
> received all that property PLUS 4000
> pounds a year why was she crying
> "POOR"? Would think that all these
> properties gave her more income.and
> maybe bringing it close to 10000 pounds?
> or did she just have the use but no income
> from the same?
One of the problems was, unlike other
wives of the time, had never managed
a household. Queens only nominally
where in charge of theirs (they had
comptrollers, but these men were
actually in the employ of the King.)
Women who were not married to kings
were often in control of the household
accounts and the deputization of
servants to certain duties.
Anna, as I have written before, was
raised in a cloistered environment. Her
mother, Duchess Maria, was in charge,
while her brother, William, ran Cleves.
Maria, in keeping with the German
tradition of the times, kept her daughters
in almost complete ignorance... of
everything. Very little in the way of
practical education and certainly nothing
in the way of sexual education. A prime
example of the completeness of Anna's
ignorance was that she had no conception
of "what makes babies."
Naturally, everyone was curious how the
wedding night went, especially since
Henry had been less than eager after
the debacle of their first meeting. He
and Anna did share a chamber the first
few nights after the wedding ceremony,
and Anna's new waiting women asked
pointed questions.
Well, they would have been pointed to
someone who had an inkling about to
what the ladies were referring.
Anna, bright-eyed and eager to please,
divulged that Henry kissed her goodnight
each night, and again in the morning.
When the ladies all look confused when
it became apparent that that was all,
Anna, in her turn, became confused by
their seeming disappointment. Finally,
one of them informed the Queen, "but
Madam, there *must* be *more*, or
it will be ere long before we have a
Duke of York!"
Still, Anna was confused, and blushed
deeply. It was suggested that Her Majesty
have a little chat with "Mother Lowe,"
who was the considered the "mother of
the German maids," and whom had children
herself. The English ladies were hoping
that Mother Lowe could give the new Queen
some appropriate nudges in the "right
direction."
Anna turned purple and bid the English
ladies, "Fie! Away! For shame!"
It soon became apparent that no matter
who had a chat with Anna, it wouldn't
matter. No matter what ideas the new
Queen might get, Henry was not of a
mood to experiment.
Whereas it was much the fashion, not
only in Cleves, but elsewhere, to leave
daughters in complete darkness about
sex, it was not common to leave them
ignorant of practical, wifely skills.
After her divorce, Anna suddenly found
herself in charge of money... for the
first time in her Life. She probably
went through a "honeymoon period" where
she did not think of the responsibility
that money and possessions bring, but of
all the fun she could have. And fun she
did have!
As time passed, however, Anna realized
how much things cost; the upkeep of
homes and the pay of servants. It didn't
matter if Anna was not in residence in
one of the manor houses which she had
been given. Her rank demanded a certain
style of living, whether or not the lady of
the manor was there to enjoy it. Servants
had to be paid, clothed and fed. If they
were single and women, it was Anna's job
to see that they had dowries. A good
mistress (or master) gave lovely gifts at
Christmastime, and small gifts of money
at the birth of one of her servants or
tenants children. Anna would attend the
weddings of her servants and tenants (if
she was "in the neighborhood," it is
unlikely, unless there was a special
relationship, that she would leave Court
to attend) and, on occasion, attend their
funerals.
There was the care and upkeep of animals,
for many of these homes and properties
including farms that provided food for the
table. There were horses to ride and
hawks and falcons to take care of. With
these animals came their accessories:
saddles, bridles, leather goods, tethers,
hoods... of which had to also be taken
care of.
It was not as if Henry paid for all this
and Anna's cash annuity was "pin money."
Anna had to take care of all this (or,
more to the point, oversee its care.)
She could have decided to do just all
of this, but Anna, as many fashionable
ladies of the time, had no desire to
"retire to the country." She wanted a
social Life too. Since Anna had entree
to the English Court, that was the arena
in which she enjoyed a social Life, and
it was the most costly arena.
Anna would need the appropriate
wardrobe, as well as be able to exchange
gifts during each season. It was, of
course, good form to give lavish gifts
to the King at the very least. With any
luck, the King would respond in kind.
This could be a gift of cash, or a length
of the best material for a gown. It
could be jewelry or a silver designed by
Master Holbein, or perhaps a brace
of hawks for hunting, or a new horse
to ride.
It probably came as a great surprise to
Anna that her money disappeared
rapidly.
As I wrote before, Henry left no provision
for Anna in his Will. She was not his
widow, and their "special arrangement"
ended with him. From what I understand,
this meant that Anna retained her properties,
but lost the cash annuity. She may have
retained the annuity, but still felt herself
overwhelmed by the responsibilities that
her not-inconsiderable list of properties
brought.
This meant she was literally living on
whatever monies came from her properties,
and the sufferance of the new sovereign.
By the time Henry died, Anna had spent
seven years at Court (though, of course,
she still visited her properties and
stayed there occasionally, she had an
official place at her ex-husband's Court.)
It was undoubtedly, except for situation
where Henry initially rejected her (and
then deigned not to remarry her - she was
insulted by his preference for Catherine
Parr) the happiest, most exciting period
of her Life. She wanted her Life to
continue in the same vein: a lady with a
certain status in and at the Court.
Edward VI was not Henry VIII, and his
passions ran to the ecclesiastical.
Henry's marriages, entertainments, high
standard of living and policies had
depleted the Treasury. Edward was of a
more serious bent. The biggest questions
were, would Edward be able to hold his
own on the religious issues of the day,
and whom would the Boy King marry?
Something of Edward's personality was
revealed when he effectively announced
that he would not be following his father's
example with commoners. Although Edward's
mother had been a commoner (she died when
he was twelve days old and he had never
known her, and there was only one
portrait of her, painted at Henry's
request, that even depicted her top to toe)
he wanted a Royal marriage. The Boy King
let it be known that he desired a "Royal
princess, bejewelled and well-stuffed."
The "well-stuffed" part meant a large
dowry.
There is no evidence that Edward disliked
Anna. He certainly would not have been
fond of her religious inclinations, but he
saved most of his sermonizing on that
count for his godmother, his oldest sister
Mary. Neither would Edward been
supportive of Anna's love for the high
Life. His Court was dour and sombre.
His half-sister Elizabeth courted his
approval by putting aside her love of fine
clothes and jewelry and making it a point
to appear in black or white, sans ornaments
and in gowns of severe and plain cuts.
Anna, like Mary, was fond of jewels and
pretty clothes. It probably occurred to
her that being in Edward's Court, on
some levels, was not very different from
being in Cleves. She probably hoped that
Edward would marry and a wife would
lighten up the King - and his Court.
For his part, Edward was hoping that
Anna would marry, and thus become
the financial responsibility of her new
husband. In fact, when Thomas Seymour
was testing the waters to check the
reaction of Edward to his plan to marry
Catherine Parr, the subject of Anna
came up.
Edward was asked whom he would like
to see marry his bachelor Seymour
uncle. It was a test to see who would
come to the King's mind.
Edward failed the test by immediately
suggesting that he marry Anna of
Cleves. Uh... no. Thomas had no
interest in marrying the by-then 32
year old Anna. Thomas was quite the
ladies' man, and Anna, while not as
ugly as has been reported, was not
very glamourous nor appealing to
Thomas Seymour, either.
Then Edward said, "I would that he
marry my sister [Mary Tudor] that he
might turn her opinions."
Though later Thomas would want to
do just that (though his first choice
was then Elizabeth) he was, at the
time, set on Catherine Parr.
It was finally on the third try that
Edward suggested his widowed stepmother.
He could have hardly been consenting
to her quick remarriage (Edward was
all about observing proper form.)
It was the "style" of even the wealthiest
people to "cry poor." The King would
lament, even as he sat in the midst
of his own largesse, as if he were mere
days away from ruin. Henry VIII was
much more spendthrift than his father,
who enjoyed celebrations, gifts, meals,
and hospitality the most when it came
from someone else s purse (this was
inherited by his personally-thrifty
granddaughter, Elizabeth I.)
The more Anna became aware of the
responsibilities of money and the cost of
things, the more she pestered the Tudor
sovereigns for money. She couldn't
very well badger Henry, for, all things
considered, he had been generous, and
she had accepted his terms. Anna was
personally too astute to risk Henry's
ire by appearing ungrateful, greedy or
make herself appear to be a problem.
She was well aware of the state of
Henry's health and the fact that it often
made him difficult to deal with; the last
things she wanted to do was make
herself a target at which he could lash
out when he was feeling bad.
Edward felt no ties to Anna. To him, she
was but a relic of his father's reign, one
of his father's loose ends with which he
had to deal. Unlike his sisters, Edward
had had little contact with Anna, and so
therefore had little in the way of "warm
and fuzzy" feelings for her. Given his own
personal inclinations, it was also highly
unlikely that Edward would be sympathetic
that Anna felt herself poverty-stricken and
unable to enjoy "the high Life." Had Anna
throw herself at his feet (and Edward loved
obsequious ceremony; whereas his sisters
had curtsied three times on approaching
their father, they curtsied five times in
approaching him.) Edward is likely to have
looked at her blandly and coldly told her
to "economize."
That was if Anna would have occasion
to even see the new King. As it was,
Henry's death removed Anna's reason to
even be at Court at all. She had no
connection with the new King. Neither
Edward nor Mary sent for her (though
she did appear in public to ride in Mary's
coronation procession; she shared a
coach with Elizabeth) though Anna wrote
to both of them.
The idea that a return to Cleves was
looking better and better began to germinate
with Henry's marriage to Catherine Parr.
Anna had really believed that, given the
ease of their relationship and the fact
that she was popular, Henry might remarry
her. That he didn't felt like a slap in the
face. By the time Edward and Mary were
on the Throne, Anna felt more and more
ill-used by her English situation.
It was during Mary's reign that Anna
sought to have her brief and unconsummated
marriage to Henry declared legal and
valid. She was desperate in her hopes
to thus be elevated to the status of the
King's widow that she might therefore
be able to share in his estate.
Both the councils of Edward VI and Mary I
received reams of letters from Anna
complaining about her situation and asking
for financial aid. However, both reigns had
far more troubles than to bother with the
seemingly endless complaints of a divorced
spouse of a late sovereign, and the
majority of her letters simply went
unanswered.
To the English, it certainly did appear
that Anna was whining unaccountably. She
had many properties and establishments
that came to her through her settlement,
including Anne Boleyn's old home at
Hever Castle, Richmond Palace and
Chelsea Manor (where she died.)
> And also does anybody know the value
> of the pound at that time?
A quick rifle through my books did not
produce a quick-access conversion table.
However, the allowance for Katheryn
Howard's household was described as
"lavish" and Anna's annuity was only
600 pounds less.
It is known that there were other suitors
for Anna's hand, and had she truly been
so destitute it is unlikely that there would
have been. Some had to be formally
and officially discouraged.
During the reigns of Edward and Mary,
Anna did retire, finally permanently, to
one of her country estates. There she
became Lady Bountiful, and contented
herself with making a duplicate-in-
miniature of a Rhenish Court. It fell to
Anna to provide for her own funeral,
and it was indeed lavish and to her
requested specifications. Her Will
was generous, and she remembered
every friend and servant, from Queen
Mary down to the laundresses.
Waldt...@webtv.net
and in a debate came up liselotte von der pfalz the granddaughter ?of
frederick V and daughter ?of the "winterking"?was she also thru her
mother a stuart? i know she married louisXIV brother who was a
transvestite but was he truly or just trying to throw everyone of
course? liselotte wrote many many letters in her lifetime and left an
account of the inner circle of louis XIV court but did she have
children? what happened to them descendants?please enlighten thanks
walk...@hom.net
> HELP WALKUERE!
Servus, Waldtraute. :)
> I have misplaced a book and in a debate
> came up Liselotte von der Pfalz the
> granddaughter of Frederick V and daughter
> of the "Winter King"? Was she also
> through her mother a Stuart?
Friedrich V was the "Winter King" of Bohemia
(so called because tenure on the Bohemian
Throne lasted only the season of Winter. ;)
His wife is famously known as "Elizabeth,
the Winter Queen" and she was daughter
of King James I of England and therefore
by birth a Stuart.
Their second son was Karl I Ludwig (Charles
Louis) the Elector of Palatine. By his first
marriage, to Charlotte of Hesse-Cassel
(which ended in divorce after seven years)
he had three children, and the only daughter
was Elizabeth Charlotte, born 27 May 1652.
"Liselotte"'s Stuart descent was thus:
James I - Elizabeth the Winter Queen -
Karl, Elector of Palatine - Liselotte.
Ironically, Liselotte was the Duc d'Orléans
*second* wife of Stuart descent. His
first wife had been Princess Henrietta
Anne, who had been Liselotte's cousin.
(Henrietta Anne was the daughter of
Charles I of England, the younger brother
of Elizabeth, the Winter Queen.)
The first Duchesse d'Orléans died at
the Palace of St. Cloud on 30 June 1670,
just two weeks after her 26th birthday.
The 31 year old Philippe married the 19
year old Liselotte nearly 1-1/2 years
later, on 21 November 1671.
> I know she married Louis XIV s brother who
> was a transvestite but was he truly, or just
> trying to throw everyone off course?
Philippe's penchant for cross-dressing began
when he was very young.
His birth was somewhat of a surprise, as
his parents, Louis XIII and Anne of Austria
cordially loathed one another. Such was
their estrangement that gossip had it that
neither Philippe, nor his older brother, the
future "Roi Soleil" were rumoured to have
been fathered by other than Louis XIII.
Louis XIII was said to have been "thrilled"
by this birth of a second son, because he
had not thought that he would have another
child by Anne.
A pretty baby, Philippe continued to be
pretty, and instead of gravitating towards
more masculine pursuits, preferred the
dress, company and pastimes of women.
In the beginning, Anne of Austria was
content to allow Philippe his way. Perhaps
Anne was allowing herself to enjoy
Philippe as the "daughter" she would
never have. More pragmatically, she
chose to look upon Philippe's personality
as ensuring fraternal harmony: from
the age of five, Louis was the King.
To encourage Philippe to be assertive
or combative would run the risk of him
being the possible focus of disgruntled
parties who could use him to oppose
his brother.
Happily, the Louis adored his baby
brother. Philippe continued to be drawn
to feminine amusements: he was mad
for clothes, enjoyed sewing, gossiping,
sweets and jewellery. Arguably, so did
Louis, but to an entirely different extent
and effect.
Louis first hoped to match Philippe to
their cousin, Anne Marie Louise, Duchesse
de Montpensier, who was known as
"Mademoiselle." Mademoiselle was fond
of Philippe, but soon recognized his
quirks. She determined to "love him
anyway," but Philippe ruined their
relationship by taking offense at her
teasing. She saw him upon his return
from a masquerade for which he had
gorgeously arrayed himself as a girl.
Mademoiselle was shocked to discover
that Philippe was dead in earnest about
his costume, and refused to see the
slightest humour in the situation.
Realizing that his predilection was
likely to cause problems later on,
Mademoiselle retreated from the match.
The Queen Mother (Anne of Austria)
and Louis were disappointed, and further
so by the fact that Philippe soon began
to surround himself with "mignons" -
which, colloquially meant "boyfriends."
(The word literally means "sweets"
or "dainties.") They were of the opinion
that perhaps the right bride might
remedy that potentially dangerous
situation.
In the very beginning of his first marriage,
to the English princess Henrietta Anne,
the first of his Stuart brides, it appeared
that Louis and the Queen Mother were
correct. Philippe reveled in his new
status and his new bride. Unfortunately,
the novelty soon wore off. Philippe's
ardour cooled very rapidly; he felt
everyone, especially his friends, were
paying far too much attention to Henrietta
Anne. Philippe retreated into sulks
and pouts, leaving his new bride
confused by the turn of events.
For all that, Philippe must have enjoyed
sleeping with Henrietta, for she would
have eight pregnancies, producing four
children. None of this bridged his
preference for women's clothing and
accessories, nor his liking for the
"mignons." Of their four children,
only one was a boy, who was titled
the Duc de Valois. Little Philip
Charles died at the age of two.
The relationship of Philippe and Henrietta
was strained enough that when Henrietta
died suddenly, Philippe was suspecting
of poisoning her. The gossip was heated
enough that Henrietta's body was
autopsied, and it was announced that she
had died of "natural causes."
Very possibly because his only son by
Henrietta had died, Philippe was pressed
into marriage again. As he inarguably
needed an heir, the idea was probably
not too repugnant to him. Besides, he
did like women; during both of his
marriages he had mistresses (some of
whom bore him children), though he
also had his "mignons."
This leads me to believe that Philippe
was bi-sexual at the least. He may have
kept mistresses to keep up appearances,
for every man of station seemed somehow
"incomplete" without one. However, his
preference for women's clothing and
accessories was very real.
Not all transvestites are homosexual.
There have always existed men that, for
one reason or another, enjoy dressing in
women's clothing, but have been heterosexual
in sexual orientation. It cannot be
overlooked, however, that Philippe sought
out sexual relationships with men. It is
arguable that had he not lived at the time,
and at the rank, that he did, which demanded
that he marry and father children, he might
have happily lived his Life as a homosexual.
> Liselotte wrote many, many letters in her
> lifetime and left an account of the inner
> circle of Louis XIV s Court, but did she
> have children? What happened to those
> descendants? Please enlighten. Thanks.
Liselotte had a lot to write about... she
lived in a very interesting era. ;)
Philippe and Liselotte had three children:
Alexander Ludwig, born 1673; Philippe,
born 1674 and Elizabeth Charlotte, born
1676.
Little Alexander would die before his 3rd
birthday.
Their only daughter, her mother's namesake,
married Leopold Joseph, the Duke of Lorraine,
in 1698. She would have three sons and
two daughters, and her second son, Franz
Stefan, would marry Maria Theresia of
Austria.
It was the middle child, the heir, who
would cause a break between his father and
paternal uncle. (For the sake of making
things easy because father and son bore
the same Christian name, I am going to
refer to Philippe-the-son by his title -
he was the Duc de Chartes.)
When Chartes was 18, his paternal uncle
arranged a match for him. His choice for
his brother's only son and heir was not
a Royal princess, but the daughter of one
of his numerous mistresses. Liselotte was
thoroughly disgusted by the idea of her
only son marrying an illegitimate girl,
even if she was the daughter of her
brother-in-law the King. The bride was
actually by this time legitimate, as
Louis had married her mother, Françoise
d'Aubigne, soon after their daughter
turned 7 years old.
Despite Liselotte s outrage and disapproval,
the marriage of Françoise Marie de Blois and
Chartes worked out rather well. Together,
they would have eight children.
However, as was the habit in the family,
Chartes marriage vows did not encumber
him in the least from taking mistresses.
Like his paternal uncle, Chartes seemed to
have the attitude of "the more the merrier."
Françoise did not agree, and, in 1701, she
went to her Royal Papa to complain. Chartes
was having a busy year. Françoise was
pregnant, and so was one of his girlfriends,
an actress, Simultaneously, Chartes was
carrying on with one of Liselotte s ladies-
in-waiting.
On 9 June 1701, the King approached
his brother and took him to task for his
son's bad behaviour. Instead of rushing
to reproach his son, Philippe reminded
Louis that, given his own behaviour, it
was rather hypocritical for him to be
so suddenly angered by such a situation.
After all, Louis had mistresses by the score
and had hardly been a faithful husband.
Philippe went even further, and alluded
to the fact that not only did Louis spread
his attentions wide, he had not been above
putting them in his wives' faces. His first
wife, Marie Thérèse (born a Princess of
Spain) had on occasion, been put in the
position of sharing her coach with some
of her husband's mistresses. (In fact, it
was Marie Thérèse's death in 1683 which
cleared the way for Louis to marry his
mistress, the commoner Françoise d'Aubigne,
the following year.)
Louis was livid that his brother would so
blatantly remind him of his own peccadilloes.
They parted on bad terms.
Later that same night, Chartes sent an
urgent message to the King that Philippe
had fallen seriously ill. Still steaming
from their earlier disagreement, Louis
ignored the message and went to bed. Still
later, Chartes sent another, frantic,
message that Philippe was failing. Only
then did Louis rush to his brother's bedside,
but Philippe had already fallen into a coma.
He never regained consciousness, and died
soon after Louis' arrival. He was 60 years
old.
Liselotte survived her husband by 21
years, dying on 8 December 1722, like
her cousin and predecessor, at the
Palace of St.Cloud. She was eighty
years old.
Both Philippe and Liselotte are interred
in the Royal Crypts at the Basilica of
St. Denis in Paris.
As for the descendants of Liselotte and
Philippe through Chartes (who inherited his
father's title of Duc d'Orléans on
Philippe's death) one of his daughters
(Marie Adelaide) became an abbess. Three
of his other surviving daughters married
into the d'Este (Charlotte) Spanish Bórbon
(Louise Elizabeth) and von Conty (Louise
Diana) families. Philippine Elizabeth
remained unmarried. His only son, Louis,
married a Princess of Baden-Baden.
Françoise miscarried the child she was
carrying in 1701. She and Chartes named
the next child to be born Louis, for her
father. Perhaps Chartes hoped it would
help the King forget the unhappy incident
in 1701.
BZ Lane
Almost needless to say, all that you are writing here is greatly
fascinating to read and your further replies, detailed in email are VERY
much enjoyed and appreciated as well.
BZ
walk...@hom.net
> BZ Lane wrote:
>
> Hello there Candace.
BZ:
Lovely of you to think, and say, so. :)
As I have said before, I enjoy posting here,
and when I can, helping people discover new
things of people of the past.
I am eager for people of the past to be seen
as people, not just as titles, but real
people who had virtues and vices; the world
that shaped them and how they effected the
world. If I can inspire one person to want
to read more, to go to a library and/or ask
questions, then it is effort well made.
It's lovely to hear that my efforts are
appeciated. :)
C.
LostNgl
appeciated. :)
C.
Very much appreciated!!!!!
Sue T
los...@aol.com says...
Victoriana Quiz? I can't seem to fins them anyway.
--
Susan T
"I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to."
Waldt...@webtv.net
was liselottes life after her husbands death ?did her mariagecontact did
not say :take thee to a nunnery or vegitate in the country?
walk...@hom.net
> Waldt...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Thank you, Candace and I won my bet!!
> wonderful article!
Nichts zu danken, glücklich zu hören und
kein Problem! :)
> What was Liselotte's life after her
> husband's death ? Her marriage contact
> did not say: take thee to a nunnery or
> vegetate in the country?
Well, it's not as if Liselotte was deep
in mourning or likely to miss Philippe.
Besides his annoying preference for
tarting himself up and his "mignons,"
there was also the insulting fact that
he was not only free with his own money
(of which he did not have a lot) but
especially with hers. Like Edward II,
Philippe enjoyed spending scandalous
amounts of his wife's money on his own
amusements, and most unbearable, on his
extra-marital activities, which usually
amounted to entertaining his "mignons"
in style at Liselotte's expense.
Liselotte was spirited enough to have
enjoyed a good giggle, or at least a
certain level of satisfaction, beneath
her widow's mourning veils.
Though not the type to want to retire
completely, neither was she likely to
have throw herself into the seclusion
of a nunnery. For one thing, Liselotte
was not a devout practitioner of the
Roman faith. In fact, she was a crypto-
Protestant. Liselotte a nun? Now that's
an interesting idea. ;)
Obviously, her marriage had been full of
stress and strain. On many levels, she
probably felt no sorrow that Philippe
was pushing up daisies.
Philippe's death did not cause Liselotte
to retire from Court. She held tenaciously
to her place and rights. When there was
bickering and place-seeking amongst ladies
of the Court, Liselotte put her foot down,
and was not afraid to appeal to the Sun
King himself to assert her rights and
privledges. She was the widow of the
King's brother, and no matter what the
outrageous behaviour of her late husband,
nor her son for that matter, she knew there
was considerable power behind that
connection. If she had to remind Louis of
that from time to time, she was willing to
do so. She struck just the right tone of
respectfulness and self-assertion when
dealing with the powerful King.
The death of Philippe allowed Liselotte to
come more into her own. She had never been
a "shrinking violet," but after his death
she also no longer had to deal with any
embarassment caused by his predilections.
An indefatiguable writer and correspondent,
Liselotte's letters and diaries provide a
fascinating look at her time, within the
"inner circle."
walk...@hom.net
> Sue T wrote:
>
> I, too, am enjoying your posts. Did I miss
> the answers to the Victoriana Quiz? I
Eeeek, I did forget to post those, didn't I!
I've meant to post the answers and simply
forgot to do so, so I will be digging out
the quiz and reposting it, along with the
answers. Because of some other mails, I will
be posting something on contraception in the
Tudor era. :)
For your appreciation, I send thanks. :)
the Fleming
>
>As I have said before, I enjoy posting here,
>and when I can, helping people discover new
>things of people of the past.
>
>I am eager for people of the past to be seen
>as people, not just as titles, but real
>people who had virtues and vices; the world
>that shaped them and how they effected the
>world. If I can inspire one person to want
>to read more, to go to a library and/or ask
>questions, then it is effort well made.
You won't believe this, but having just read the Elizabeth Woodville account
made me think that next time I'm in the library I might get a book out on
English royal history - my knowledge, esp. of their chronology (not being
English, or having been taught English history in detail in school), is
scrappier than I'd like. :o)
So it looks like your effort has gone rewarded. :o))
the Fleming
PPill
Susan Cohen wrote:
> walk...@hom.net wrote:
>
> > Her fourth and final marriage proved that
> > it was not a question of Catherine s fertility,
> > but of the sperm of her husband. To the
> > surprise of everyone, Catherine's quick
> > remarriage to the ambitious Thomas
> > Seymour resulted in a pregnancy.
>
> It could have been a menopause baby, where otherwise
> infertile women will benefit by the "last ditch effort" the
> female body gives off at this point.
>
> Susan
I had always heard that Henry probably was no longer able to perform by
the time he married Catherine. Does anyone else remember reading that?
PPill
Candide
--
"
PPill <pdeb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:38D57474...@ix.netcom.com...
>
>
> Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> > walk...@hom.net wrote:
> > snipped
> I had always heard that Henry probably was no longer able to perform by
> the time he married Catherine. Does anyone else remember reading that?
>
> PPill
>
> Remember reading something along those lines in Antoina Fraser's book "The Wives
of Henry VIII".
*The following is taken from page 373 of The Wives of Henry VIII:
"By now a nurse was probably a greater necessity than a bedmate....in the course
of the King's sixth marriage references to "a Duke of York" died away,while the
practical importance of the Lady Mary noticeably increased"
If Henry had the will and aspirations of Catherine bearing him a "spare heir" Lady
Mary would hardly have been seen as moving up in the rankings as it were.
Henry was sick,grossly overweight with legs full of ulcers that caused him much
discomfort hardly a man capable of performing martial duties even for England.
Besides if Henry was capable and wished to try for another child I am sure he
would not have picked Catherine as a bride. She was at an age which was considered
middle age for the times and had been married twice with no issue of her
body,hardly good breeding material.
Catherine Parr was however an excellent nurse,and it is that which Henry needed at
that stage of his life more than anything else.
Candide
Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing
himself."-Tolstoy
the Fleming
Not to be sniffed at, by any means!
the Fleming
the Fleming
>> > it was not a question of Catherine s fertility,
>> > but of the sperm of her husband. To the
>> > surprise of everyone, Catherine's quick
>> > remarriage to the ambitious Thomas
>> > Seymour resulted in a pregnancy.
>>
>> It could have been a menopause baby, where otherwise
>> infertile women will benefit by the "last ditch effort" the
>> female body gives off at this point.
>>
>> Susan
>
>the time he married Catherine. Does anyone else remember reading that?
>
>PPill
I can only go by how he was portrayed in the series - and if that was
accurate, his girth and the state of his legs by that stage would have
prevented physical proximity where it counted... (nudge nudge, wink wink...)
;o)
the Fleming
PPill
the Fleming wrote:
Gotcha, Fleming, and agree wholeheartedly.
PPill
Candide
--
the Fleming <Agnes....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:8b9s46$sfh$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
> Candide wrote in message <4dgB4.4213$I5.3...@typhoon2.gnilink.net>...
> >
> >PPill <pdeb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >news:38D57474...@ix.netcom.com...
> >>
> >> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >>
> >> > walk...@hom.net wrote:
> >> > snipped
> >> I had always heard that Henry probably was no longer able to perform by
> >> the time he married Catherine. Does anyone else remember reading that?
snipped yet again
> >>
> > >Catherine Parr was however an excellent nurse,and it is that which Henry
> needed at
> >that stage of his life more than anything else. (Candide)
>
> Not to be sniffed at, by any means!
>
> the Fleming
>
So who's sniffing? Not me! Besides if I had my choice of being nurse to HenryVIII
or wife it would seem nurse was a safer choice LOL :)
>
>
>