OT: Lord of the Rings Question w/Spoilers
xfil...@gmail.com
question we are arguing over at work. Major spoiler for the ending is
ahead!!!!!
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Why exactly to Frodo, his uncle, and the others get on the last boat
leaving Middle Earth at the end of the third movie? Some feel that
they are dying (Frodo's wound that never healed, the uncle who
rapidly aged after giving up the ring, Gandalf who escaped Death
before), and others feel that they are being given the gift of going
off to save their species and live forever/longer.
No one can give a direct reason for the side on which they fall, so
I'm hoping that others who are more familiar with the book or movie
can help us determine the meaning of those who were chosen to take that
last "adventure," as Frodo's uncle put it.
jennifer
Smokie Darling (Annie)
Because the One Ring had changed them (the Hobbits) forever. Going
"Into the West" would possibly allow them to live forever, though
that's up for debate (after all Galadriel did state she would go into
the West and fade). Gandalf was neither Elven, nor Hobbit, he was
another, higher, form of life.
Drawing a blank on what it was he (and Saruman) were, but all of them
(the "immortals") had to leave Middle-Earth to the designs of "men".
Then there is the book, in which it's discussed that Legolas (the elf)
stays and he and Gimli explore forests and caves until they have seen
them all, then they too leave (Legolas, being a prince, got permission
to bring Gimli, a dwarf, to "the West").
chef_boyhowdy!
> On Dec 6, 11:43 am, xfile...@gmail.com wrote:
>> For any LotR fans here, hopefully your input will help answer a
>> question we are arguing over at work. Major spoiler for the ending is
>> ahead!!!!!
>>
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>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>>
>> Why exactly to Frodo, his uncle, and the others get on the last boat
>> leaving Middle Earth at the end of the third movie? Some feel that
>> they are dying (Frodo's wound that never healed, the uncle who
>> rapidly aged after giving up the ring, Gandalf who escaped Death
>> before), and others feel that they are being given the gift of going
>> off to save their species and live forever/longer.
>>
>> No one can give a direct reason for the side on which they fall, so
>> I'm hoping that others who are more familiar with the book or movie
>> can help us determine the meaning of those who were chosen to take that
>> last "adventure," as Frodo's uncle put it.
>>
>> jennifer
>
> Because the One Ring had changed them (the Hobbits) forever. Going
> "Into the West" would possibly allow them to live forever, though
> that's up for debate
reminds me of an old joke:
Who founded the city of Chicago?
A bunch of unsatisfied Manhattanites, who said, I'm enjoying the crime and
the poverty, but its just not cold enough. Lets head west.
xfil...@gmail.com
Thanks, Annie!
No one seems to know what living forever meant, though. The assumption
was to keep the species from dying out. But with Frodo and his uncle
being the only hobbits, there would be no procreation. I mean,
wouldn't the wiser choice have been Sam and his wife?
Sure, Frodo, his uncle, Gandalf, etc. went to live on, but since it was
just them, there didn't seem to be a huge point. Unless they were
allowed to mate/socialize with the Elven women who had left earlier....
jennifer
okerry
news:1165430630....@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Because the Elves's dominion over Middle Earth was at an end, they were
leaving on the ships to go into the Uttermost West. There are many legends
from Europe, Britain and Scandinavia about a magical land beyond the western
horizon where one could live forever in comfort and beauty. Call it Avalon,
Atlantis, Heaven, Paradise, whatever - the stories are very similar and
Tolkien merely picked up on the ancient legend for his own stories.
Bilbo and Frodo were given a place on the ship as a reward for their service
with the Ring, since they were so damaged and changed by it that they could
no longer live contentedly in Middle Earth as Sam and Merry and Pippin could
do.
As someone else said, Gandalf is actually an immensely powerful being (a
Valar? Vanyar?) who also no longer had a place in Middle Earth now that the
Time of Men had arrived and was also rewarded for his service.
I also seem to remember something in the book about Frodo being given
Arwen's place on the ship, since she chose to give up her immortality and
remain behind with Aragorn.
okerry
No 33 Secretary
news:1165436118.5...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
You really should read the book, which makes it a bit more clear.
Frodo, et al sailing to the West is the spiritual equivalent to a
saint being bodily assumed in to Heaven. The Silmarillion goes in
to a lot more detail, but The West isn't part of Middle Earth, it's
"Heaven," more or less, for that universe. It can't be gotten to by
simply sailing west; one has to "know the right people" to get
there.
Frodo and Bilbo, as ring bearers, have been (as noted) changed by
the ring, and Frodo, at least, has a wound (from the Nazgul's
blade) that will never heal (and it's implied that the physical
wound actually reflects a wound to his soul). Allowing him to go to
The West is a mercy, as it is the only place he can ever know any
kind of peace. Bilbo, the same, if somewhat less so.
--
"What is the first law?"
"To Protect."
"And the second?"
"Ourselves."
Terry Austin
No 33 Secretary
news:U1Hdh.15955$B42....@newsfe12.phx:
> As someone else said, Gandalf is actually an immensely powerful
> being (a Valar? Vanyar?)
>
Maia, plural Maiar. All the "wizards" are Maiar, including Saruman.
Not sure if Sauron was formally a Maia, but he was of the same order
of power (a servant of Morgoth, a Valar, as Gandalf and the other
wizards were servants of other Valar).
Coop
I thought Sam goes there as well when he is very old.
Coop
No 33 Secretary
news:el7jnl$i13$1...@news.oregonstate.edu:
I was thinking the same thing myself, because he was the ring
bearer for a brief time.
xfil...@gmail.com
Then what of Smeagal? He was changed the most, but sacrificed himself
for the ring. (In a greedy sense.)
I guess I just question Bilbo, too. He got very ugly several times as
well, but was "rewarded." Was that because he was willing/able to give
the ring at the right time to Frodo, even though he sometimes regretted
it?
Was Smeagal considered "less" than Bilbo because the ring was taken
from him, not given away as Bilbo had done? I realize that Smeagal's
undoing was his own, I'm just having a hard time seeing him as a
villian.
jennifer
okerry
news:1165470397.6...@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
That's okay. Frodo felt the same way. ;)
okerry
No 33 Secretary
news:1165470397.6...@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
And he's dead, so it's a moot point.
>
> I guess I just question Bilbo, too. He got very ugly several
> times as well, but was "rewarded." Was that because he was
> willing/able to give the ring at the right time to Frodo, even
> though he sometimes regretted it?
The impression I got was that it was simply because he was a ring
bearer. All the ring bearers (not the the great ring, but all the
rings) except the Nine were accorded special status.
>
> Was Smeagal considered "less" than Bilbo because the ring was
> taken from him, not given away as Bilbo had done? I realize
> that Smeagal's undoing was his own, I'm just having a hard time
> seeing him as a villian.
>
I suspect that, had he survived, he would have been offered a
ticket to the West as well.
mooseb...@hotmail.com
The Lords of the west, the Valar, Tolkein's "gods" decided that frodo
and bilbo had suffered due to the influence of The Ring, so they gave
them the opportunity to find peace and comfort in the West. The lands
of the West, in Tolkein's creation, is equal to a heaven, mostly
because of the influence of the Valar, who have blessed the realm that
they live in. Gandalf went there, because that's where he's from, (See
The Silmarillion, and Book of Unfished Tales) and he's returning their
since his mission is finished.
xfil...@gmail.com
Thanks to all with more knowledge for explaining this all to me!!!
One other thing that I thought of...Smeagal came by the ring via
murder. The others did not. So perhaps he was "tainted" from the
onset....?
Obviously still mulling this all over, but it makes so much more sense
now. Thanks again!
jennifer