James Kim: Fumbles, missteps hindered search
camille
SF Chronicle
For four days, as the snowbound Kim family's food supplies dwindled and
they used up their gas running their stranded car's heater, no one even
knew they were missing.
It was two more days before rescuers narrowed the search to roads
leading across thousands of square miles of western Oregon, and another
day before cell phone transmissions helped to pinpoint the search area.
While the speed of the investigation in some ways was remarkable --
given what little authorities started out with -- it was dogged by
early missteps and obstacles that handicapped investigators.
A Portland hotel where the family had stayed refused to provide credit
card records that might have indicated which way the Kims had gone. An
early search by air and land of the treacherous mountain route that
James and Kati Kim drove out of Grants Pass yielded nothing.
The owner of a lodge on the road where the Kims' car was stuck had told
authorities three days before Kati Kim and her daughters were found
that he had seen tire tracks in the snow, but he hadn't been able to
follow them in his snowmobile once he hit bare ground. No one followed
up.
Finally, cellular phone clues -- gathered by a company engineer who
volunteered his time -- helped searchers with seven state and federal
agencies and crews with three helicopters hired by the family converge
on the right area.
Still, their efforts came up short. In the end, it was an amateur
helicopter pilot who had nothing to do with the official search who
saved Kati Kim and her young daughters. He went up because he had a
hunch, and because a newspaper picture of the girls reminded him of his
own grandkids.
And even his efforts, and those of more than 100 people who took part
in the search for James Kim once they knew where to look, weren't
enough to save the San Francisco resident. Investigators now believe he
probably died the day his wife and children were found. He had trekked
more than 16 miles through the wilderness to try and save them -- 6
miles more than officials originally thought before realizing they'd
made a mapping error.
Early efforts
James Kim, 35, an editor with San Francisco's Cnet, and his wife, Kati,
30, who had once worked for the technology Web site, set off for a
Thanksgiving vacation in their 2005 Saab station wagon on Nov. 17 with
their daughters, 4-year-old Penelope and 7-month-old Sabine.
The couple, who also owned a boutique in the Haight and an apothecary
in Noe Valley near their home, stayed in Seattle, then spent the night
of Nov. 24 in Portland. The plan the next day was to go to Gold Beach,
on the coast 29 miles north of the California border, and then stop in
Mendocino before driving home Nov. 27.
As the world now knows, they became stranded in the snow west of Grants
Pass before they ever got to the coast. But at the time, no one was
expecting to hear from them, so no one knew they were missing.
On Nov. 28, the day after they were due back, the couple missed several
appointments. By the afternoon of Nov. 29, with no word from the
family, their house-sitter reported them missing to San Francisco
police.
By then, the Kims had already been lost for four days.
Detective Mike Weinstein of the Portland police missing persons detail
was out sick Nov. 29 and wasn't able to start work on the call he had
gotten from San Francisco police until Thursday, Nov. 30.
The agencies divided up responsibilities. San Francisco police
Inspector Angela Martin would check cellular records and financial
records, and Weinstein would try to retrace the family's steps in his
state.
Meanwhile, Eva Kim, James Kim's sister, started her own investigation.
She knew that a friend of the Kims' in Portland had told police where
the family had been going, so she called every hotel in Gold Beach on
Nov. 30.
Finally she found Terri Stone, the innkeeper of Tu Tu Tun Lodge. Stone
told her the family had reservations for Nov. 25 and had called her
that day asking that she leave the key out. That call came at 5:45 p.m.
after the Kims had left Salem, more than 200 miles to the north.
The information was critical, Weinstein said. "It told us we needed to
move immediately, because more likely than not they were in our
state.''
San Francisco police also notified the public of the missing family,
and a hot line was created to field tips. The first stories appeared in
the media that night.
An early obstacle
That first day, Weinstein's investigation focused on retracing the
family's route in the state. To do that, he wanted to know what credit
cards the family had been using and where.
He soon found the hotel in Portland where the Kims had stayed Nov. 24
and sent a request on police letterhead for credit-card information.
Logically, the Kims might have continued to use whatever card they used
at the hotel as they made their way through Oregon, and that could
provide a trail for investigators.
But the hotel manager -- on orders from corporate headquarters -- would
not cooperate, citing privacy concerns for their guests. Weinstein, who
wouldn't identify the hotel, said it was a first in his experience.
"To their credit, I could tell the manager truly wanted to help me, but
he was ordered not to provide the information,'' Weinstein said.
At 4 p.m., Weinstein issued a bulletin statewide telling law
enforcement to watch for the family's silver station wagon, with
special attention to Interstate 5, Highway 101 on the coast and the
routes connecting them. The bulletin said they had been going to Gold
Beach.
"We believed they must have run into trouble somewhere along the way,"
Weinstein said. "We just didn't know where it was.''
Bear Camp Road
The morning of Friday, Dec. 1, Lt. Dennis Dinsmore of the Curry County
Sheriff's Department, whose area encompasses Gold Beach, came to work
and learned that all of Oregon was to be on the lookout for the missing
family.
"I saw the destination was Gold Beach -- that's our county seat -- but
their last contact was Salem, 250 miles away,'' Curry said. "It's
pretty difficult to know where to start.''
Still, given all the roads the family could have taken -- there are
five state routes and two U.S. highways leading over to the coast from
central and southern Oregon, and countless back ways -- there was one
Dinsmore knew well: Bear Camp Road.
The way to Bear Camp Road starts off I-5 just north of Grants Pass. At
first it's a two-lane country road called the Merlin-Galice Road, but
as it climbs into the Coast Range over peaks as high as 4,000 feet, it
gets steep and narrow. In places, the dividing line disappears. During
winter, the locals typically won't even try it without a four-wheel
drive.
On some maps, however, Bear Camp looks benign. The paper map the Kims
are believed to have been using shows it as a major route, and gives no
indication of its wintertime dangers.
"We've had tragedies on there before," Dinsmore said. "We have had
people die up there before.''
He recalled the 1994 case of a man who got stuck in the snow near Bear
Camp Road and kept a diary for 52 days. The man starved to death before
anyone found him.
Dinsmore also remembered there had been a storm in southern Oregon the
night the Kims were on the road. He called Sara Rubrecht, the emergency
services coordinator with neighboring Josephine County, which
encompasses the area around I-5 and Grants Pass.
"It's a horrible route, even at best,'' Dinsmore said. "I talked to
Sara and said, 'We need to clear Bear Camp.' "
Sheriff's deputies headed up the road from both Gold Beach and Grants
Pass. Curry County sent two deputies at 10 a.m. Friday from the hamlet
of Agness in a four-wheel-drive truck. "They were told to drive as far
up Bear Camp Road as they could, safely,'' Dinsmore said.
The truck could make it only 7 1/2 miles up the mountain, well short of
the crest. "They kept going until they encountered snow and a solid
sheet of ice," Dinsmore said.
>From Grants Pass, Rubrecht told him her crews with the Josephine County
Sheriff's Department had made it 18 miles before the road became
impassable.
Later, it would become plain that the deputies from Josephine County
had gone 6 miles past a fork in the road where James Kim, struggling
along in the snow at night, had turned the Saab the wrong way and
headed into a maze of old logging roads around the Rogue River. There
was supposed to be a gate blocking the wrong route, but someone had
come along in November and cut the lock.
That Friday morning, John James, the owner of Black Bar Lodge on the
Rogue River, got an e-mail from an employee who had read about the
missing family. The subject heading read, "Whattaya bet they are up on
Bear Camp?''
James said he had redirected "countless'' motorists over the years who
had strayed off of Bear Camp onto the logging road that leads to his
lodge and loops around. "I just had this feeling that they may be out
there somewhere,'' he said.
He left a message with Rubrecht, but she didn't call back. He and his
brother went out in their snowmobiles, but it hadn't snowed for a few
days and they soon hit bare ground. Before that, however, they could
see fresh tire tracks that had been snowed over recently.
Later that day, he ran into Rubrecht and a deputy on Bear Camp Road. He
says he told her that someone needed to check the logging roads
thoroughly, but "to be honest, they weren't in a listening mode.''
Rubrecht did not return calls for comment.
With no searchers having driven about 30 miles of Bear Camp Road,
Dinsmore called for a helicopter from the state Office of Emergency
Management. A Blackhawk military helicopter was dispatched from Salem.
"That took a while,'' Dinsmore said. "Sara and I determined we were
going to clear the road by air. There are stretches of road where
there's heavy tree cover and it's hard to see from the air. Sara
indicated they would have a Sno-Cat clear the entire length.''
The helicopter went up late Friday afternoon, came back to Gold Beach
at 5:30 p.m. to refuel and searched again until midnight. There was no
sign of the Kims. Eventually, Dinsmore believed, Sno-Cat vehicles were
able to make it through the entire road.
"We had cleared Bear Camp,'' Dinsmore said. "We cleared it as far as
people could travel in wheeled vehicles and then with helicopter
flyover into the nighttime hours.''
Tips, and a cell-phone hit
Back in Portland, Weinstein and his colleagues were sifting through
more than 100 tips that had come in regarding the Kims. One of them was
from Taryn Cardenas of Beaverton, who remembered seeing them going into
a Denny's in the central Oregon town of Roseburg the evening of Nov.
25.
It took several hours, but by later Friday night Weinstein had talked
to the waitress who served the Kims.
"This was critical, because at that point we had people searching all
the major highways,'' Weinstein said. The new information meant the 100
miles between Salem and Roseburg could be eliminated.
But "that still puts them 140 miles from Gold Beach,'' Dinsmore noted.
"It narrowed it from 250 miles of road down a lesser distance, but
there were some major highways."
On Saturday, Dec. 2, Weinstein labored over the case for 14 hours from
home. By this time he was working in conjunction with four private
investigators and an attorney James Kim's family had hired.
"They were out there, attempting to gather information that the police
don't necessarily have access to,'' Weinstein said. "Then they would
relay that to us. It really was very much a cooperative effort to make
this all come together. It enabled us to work more efficiently, much
more quickly.''
The family had also hired private helicopters, which first went up
Saturday. Dinsmore said he had a discussion with Kim's father, Spencer
Kim, who rode in one of the choppers during the search.
At 6 p.m., Weinstein got a message that Medford police had been
contacted by Eric Fuqua, a cell phone company engineer who was
"adamant'' that he had to talk to someone about the case.
Fuqua worked for Edge Wireless of Bend, Ore., which is affiliated with
Cingular, the carrier that the Kim family used. Weinstein said Fuqua
had taken it upon himself to contact the family through a Web site that
had been created and had obtained the missing couple's cell phone
numbers.
"They told us they had two very brief hits with one of the cell
phones,'' Weinstein said. The calls were made from a 26-mile radius
surrounding Glendale, a small town 21 miles north of Grants Pass, and
came within four seconds of each other at 1:30 a.m. Sunday, Nov. 26.
The information was passed along to David Steele, a detective with the
Oregon State Police in Salem who was working on the case.
"I took a look at it, and (the location suggested by the transmissions)
was right on Bear Camp Road, right at the top,'' Steele said. "Either
they were receiving a call or trying to use it.''
Authorities now were almost sure the Kims were somewhere off the road
between Grants Pass and Gold Beach. It was a week almost to the hour
since the Kims had become stranded, and about 12 hours after James Kim
had left his family on foot to look for help.
Saturday morning, John Rachor was driving on the way to cut a Christmas
tree 70 miles east of Medford when his wife read him a story about the
Kims from the Medford Mail Tribune. There was a picture of the couple's
daughters, Penelope and Sabine; they reminded Rachor of his
grandchildren, a boy and girl about the same age. He also noticed Kati
Kim's name; his daughter is named Katie.
"I thought about turning around right then (and starting to search),
but they had this plan, so I stayed along,'' he said. Instead, he went
up Sunday in his helicopter, a flame-emblazoned chopper he uses to
commute to the eight Burger Kings he owns and a home he has in Agness.
The newspaper story said the Kims had eaten in Roseburg and were
supposed to have gone to Gold Beach. Rachor figured that they might
have headed over Bear Camp Road and made a wrong turn at that logging
road. A lot of people did.
"I thought they had looked there," he said, "but when I got there, I
found they hadn't checked it.''
After 2 1/2 hours in the air, he saw tire tracks in the snow along one
road but was running low on fuel so he turned back.
Searchers from Jackson County were looking that day in the same area.
Sheriff's Lt. Pat Rowland said his crews asked about the back logging
road, but were told -- incorrectly -- that the owner of the Black Bar
Lodge had "cleared" it himself.
On Monday, Rachor flew over the same road again and saw there was only
the one set of tire tracks; it didn't look like whoever it was had
driven out.
He also saw human footprints, and radioed the find to other searchers.
He went back to Grants Pass to refuel, returned to the road, and 5
miles from where he'd seen the prints he saw Kati Kim, running around
and waving an umbrella.
A disappointing end
The joy of finding Kati Kim and her two daughters alive quickly took a
disturbing turn when she told rescue workers that her husband had taken
off two days earlier to find help. Temperatures had dipped below
freezing both nights, so there wasn't much time.
James Kim's footprints showed he had backtracked along the road 5 miles
until the trail turned into the brush leading toward Big Windy Creek.
Mountain rescue teams from Eugene and Lane County were called in. By
the end of Monday, 100 people were searching on the ground and in the
air, and that night an Air National Guard helicopter equipped with
infrared heat sensors detected two "hot spots" in the canyon along the
creek.
By Tuesday morning, 26 specialists in wilderness search and rescue
operations were attempting to bushwhack their way through the forest to
reach the hot spots. It was clear by now that Kim's situation was, at
best, dire. Rescue workers following his trail were soaked from
dripping trees, brush and snow before they even reached the creek. Once
they got to the creek, it was a treacherous slog over slippery rocks.
Progress in some places was impossible without actually getting into
the water.
On Wednesday morning a man was lowered 200 feet from a helicopter into
the creek gully where he found three shirts, one wool sock, a blue
girl's skirt and what might have been a makeshift pad where Kim might
have slept. The items, and a pair of pants found the day before, might
have been a trail Kim was leaving for searchers.
Kim had disappeared Nov. 25 without anyone knowing it, but by now
millions were following the search on national television. A satellite
was rerouted over the area to try to find him, and a cell phone tower
was constructed to help with communications.
Spencer Kim had already spent thousands of dollars a day for private
search helicopters, and his family put together 18 plastic bags of
survival gear to be dropped Wednesday over a 3-mile section of
wilderness. The packages included a heartfelt letter from a frightened
father. It was a letter his son would never get a chance to read.
It was 33 degrees and fog had just lifted at 12:03 p.m. Wednesday when
a pilot with Carson Helicopters spotted what looked like a person lying
on his back in the creek.
The pilot called it in and another helicopter lowered two Jackson
County SWAT team members down to investigate. It was Kim.
Dr. James Olson, the deputy state medical examiner for southwest
Oregon, said Kim had probably collapsed in the creek and succumbed to
hypothermia.
There was no way to pinpoint the time of death. But at most, Kim
probably survived two days, Olson said. By the time his wife and
children were found, chances are he was gone.
"He was soaked and there was no way to warm himself," Olson said. "He
was not only starving, but he had gone through an exhausting ordeal.
People in this situation can't last for more than a day or so."
Had searchers found the car over the weekend, they might have been able
to save Kim, Rowland said.
But "it was a hard search," he said. "It was rough terrain. If anybody
saw the terrain, it was a needle in a haystack.''
Kris Baker
"camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1165794027.4...@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>
>A FAMILY'S TRAGEDY: Fumbles, missteps hindered search
>
> SF Chronicle
>
> For four days, as the snowbound Kim family's food supplies dwindled and
> they used up their gas running their stranded car's heater, no one even
> knew they were missing.
Thanks for this one.
It pretty much confirms what we've all been saying.
Kris
camille
I've been thinking about this the whole weekend and I agree with you,
the lack of gas was probably the major obstacle, although it was just
one unforseen wrong turn after another as things progressed.
Zeb Quinn
geography, and their very first decision which was to go the way they
chose to go. The Oregon coast range is treachorous during winter
months when being pounded by Pacific storms. No one who is at all
familiar with the coast range would ever journey to the coast over a
logging road. You can get stuck even on the major highways to the
coast during one of these storms. But at least those routes are
well-travelled and you won't be stranded for long. On that remote
logging road they never had a chance, and it was a horrendusly bad
decision to go that way. Apparently they didn't know better. They
hadn't a clue what they were getting themselves into.
camille
Just this Sept. I was in Oregon driving from Portland to Sisters (right
outside Bend). All my relatives said, oh there's this great way to go,
straight shot, yada yada - and I guess for them it was a great way,
but after we got to Salem (and I missed the vaguely noted turnoff four
times), this "major thoroughfare" turned into a winding two lane road
(one lane each direction) with everyone going 55 and a cliff at one
point. We were on it for about an hour and a half and I was a wreck.
I hate driving these types of roads. But this was considered a major
thoroughfare, with lots of traffic (no getting stranded at least), and
all my relatives up there thought it was a great road.
Oregon is different from California. I'm used to big honkin' roads -
and if it's called a thoroughfare I expect a big road. Imagine the
smaller logging roads, which I see all the time shooting off these
roads. I can understand how the Kims, coming from California, would
not understand the difference in roads up there.
Kris Baker
And don't forget that the road is on the maps, unidentified as
hazardous, and would have seemed a logical route to use.
I'd have taken it, if I only had a Rand McNally to go by.
kris
>
CliffB
Especially a tech nerd who left his GPS toy back in Sunnyvale or
wherever.
Coop
camille wrote:
<<There was supposed to be a gate blocking the wrong route, but someone
had come along in November and cut the lock.
Someone has got to be carrying around a lot of guilt.
Coop
Brigid Nelson
Beautiful route, we take it all the way to Bend, but only in the
summer.It runs through some gorgeous scenery, but it is pretty harrowing
at the point where you really are driving on the side of a mountain. My
favorite part of the drive is passing Detroit Lake - I always want to
stop and rent a boat, or walk out over the dam but a four hour drive
with two kids is long enough. We do usually stop at a small county park
with a lovely view of the river and have a picnic lunch.
My MIL doesn't like that we won't go visit her in the winter, but it
was her choice to go live on the other side of the mountains from her
grandchildren. Last summer we had to pay careful attention as the fire
by Sisters was contained but not completely done. Anytime you want to
go through the mountains around here it's a good idea to keep track of
conditions.
brigid
Brigid Nelson
It reminds me of a case I followed on CourtTV a few years ago. A
teenaged girl had been accused of removing a stop sign, and of course,
people died. Turned out though, that maybe she didn't do it - I don't
remember if she got her appeal or how it all went down in the end. The
upshot is that criminal charges were pressed, I don't see why this
instance wouldn't warrent prosecution.
brigid
Kris Baker
"Brigid Nelson" <irja...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:FOOdnVFsqfVbceDY...@comcast.com...
>
> It reminds me of a case I followed on CourtTV a few years ago. A teenaged
> girl had been accused of removing a stop sign, and of course, people died.
> Turned out though, that maybe she didn't do it - I don't remember if she
> got her appeal or how it all went down in the end. The upshot is that
> criminal charges were pressed, I don't see why this instance wouldn't
> warrent prosecution.
>
> brigid
Florida v Cole, et al:
http://www.courttv.com/choices/curriculum/stopsign/
Three people pulled out the stop sign, and three people died in the
resulting car crash. I can't see how it turned out after the appeals.
Kris
Brigid Nelson
That's the one. If I recall correctly, someone came forward later to
state that a truck had run down that specific sign.
brigid
Pokee
> > Oregon is different from California. I'm used to big honkin' roads -
> > and if it's called a thoroughfare I expect a big road. Imagine the
> > smaller logging roads, which I see all the time shooting off these
> > roads. I can understand how the Kims, coming from California, would
> > not understand the difference in roads up there.
>
> And don't forget that the road is on the maps, unidentified as
> hazardous, and would have seemed a logical route to use.
> I'd have taken it, if I only had a Rand McNally to go by.
>
> kris
One does not need a map to tell them that a road is remote, dark, steep
and full of snow. When driving in the dark in cold weather in a
mountainous area, one should assume that EVERY road is a hazardous
road.
I cannot understand why people are insisting to blame this tragedy on
poor signage and bad maps when it was so obviously just poor judgement
- which happens to the best of us.
The Kim family made the mistake of taking a non-interstate mountain
road in cold weather. No map improvements or sign improvements would
have changed this bad decision.
I know a lot of people (including myself) that will not do any road
trip driving at night. I mostly stay away from it due to poor
visibility and for fear of hitting wildlife. This is a risk that some
people are willing to take (like not wearing seatbelts or using a
booster seat in the car for small children). I know people that
consistently drive through the night to save on the hotel costs. We
all have levels of risk that we feel comfortable with.
The Kim family took a risk that cost them a life. James did everything
right after realizing the risk was a big mistake. Thank god he went
for help or the wife and kids may have been found too late. What a
stroke of luck that Kati was still nursing, too. That probably saved
both kids lives.
Very sad story. Made the cover of People Magazine, too. It has really
affected a lot of people.
Paula
Kris Baker
"Pokee" <po...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1165915405....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
OK, now tell us how (with bad signage and no warnings) YOU would
know not to take that road.
You're accusing them of taking a risk. How would they have known it
was a risk?
You can save lives in this identical situation. Tell us how.
Kris
Pokee
> OK, now tell us how (with bad signage and no warnings) YOU would
> know not to take that road.
>
I would not have been out driving in the dark in bad weather in the
first place.
> You're accusing them of taking a risk. How would they have known it
> was a risk?
IMO, they were taking a risk attempting to take a local road in the
dark and snow - AND in a vehicle that is not equipped to handle the
snow very well.
>
> You can save lives in this identical situation. Tell us how.
>
> Kris
I never said I could save a life. But we all can learn from this.
As I said before, I consider ALL ROADS HAZARDOUS in the dark and cold
weather. Obviously, the Kims did not. And others don't either. So
many people each year are killed in bad weather (esp. on hikes or
skiing out of bounds) because of taking unnecessary risks and being
ill-equipped while taking this risk. And then the taxpayers end up
footing the bill and searchers risk their lives to find these people.
The Kims made a mistake, plain and simple. There are many things along
the way that could've helped them overcome this mistake (the gate being
locked, better signs or more visible signs, better/more detailed maps,
a 4x4 car with snow tires/chains).
I am not trying to be critical in a tragic situation. Mistakes happen
and it is very sad. I just think it is irresponsible to blame this
tragedy on bad maps that should have marked a road as 'hazardous'.
Paula
camille
poor signage and bad maps.... >>
If you saw the Anderson Cooper hour special last night you would
understand.
First, the road is noted as a viable way to the coast; in fact, a
major way to the coast, on several maps. It is not dark, steep and
narrow until way further in, and at that point they did try various
maneuvers to back out. On TV, the road looked fine when the TV special
took us down it.
Second, once on that road you literally come to a fork in the road, a
perfect "Y." The road on the right is about 1/3 wider that the smaller
road on the left. Unfortunately, the wider road is NOT the road to
take.
Under the large sign at the fork (with no arrows on the sign pointing
which road to take, and the sign being dead center), there is a teeny
weeny stick of wood under it with a small arrow pointing to the left
that says COAST. It is so tiny I didn't even see it until it was
pointed out, and as they said on the show, the snow would clearly
obscure it. The ranger talking to the interviewer basically said the
signage stunk.
Because this bad signage resulted in so many mistakes, the locals
spray-painted, very amateurishly, the words "DEAD END" on the road on
the right, but the letters are thin and, of course, the snow would
cover it. Up ahead, the gate, which was supposed to be closed, was
open.
As both the ranger and the interviewer noted, anyone not living there
would clearly think the road on the right was the correct road.
Better signage would have clearly prevented this outcome. Not that
this is the only "what if," but it is a big one.
Watch, they're going to change the signage but not right away because
they don't want a lawsuit. They'll wait a bit then quietly update it.
camille
One problem here, it didn't start to snow until after they were on the
logging road (past Bear Creek Road).
LidsvilleNine
One cannot predict the unforseen, but one CAN prepare to avoid it.
Check weather reports. Stop and ask directions. Above all, TURN AROUND
when you miss your turn. They weren't on a turnpike which forbade
turning around.Once these sort of blunders are made, all the "right
actions" a person can take are moot, or at best left up to chance.
I still wonder whether he would have been better off spending a day
trying to dig his car out by hand - had they slid off the road? I
didn't get to see the television reports.Probably wasn't an issue.
Still - had he survived, we're almost looking at child endangerment.
Kris Baker
AND......this sign isn't quite dead center. It's actually up the "right"
road a bit, so you wouldn't be able to read it clearly until you've
taken the left-hand (narrower) road.
This CNN link explains it AND shows how tiny that entire sign is,
and how it's positioned:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/11/griffin.oregon/index.html
click on "(Watch why the wrong road looked so right and how they missed the
'dead end' warning)"
If we didn't drive at night, our winter days would consist of 10 hours of
daylight, wild animals in the backyard, and no husband coming home
from work ;)
Kris
Kris Baker
That's right. Before then, they were just on the road that their map
showed as the direct route to the coast. It's on *all* of my road
atlases and my Microsoft Streets & Trips.
Kris
Kris Baker
"LidsvilleNine" <Lidsvi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1165952584.4...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> One cannot predict the unforseen, but one CAN prepare to avoid it.
> Check weather reports. Stop and ask directions. Above all, TURN AROUND
> when you miss your turn. They weren't on a turnpike which forbade
> turning around.Once these sort of blunders are made, all the "right
> actions" a person can take are moot, or at best left up to chance.
> I still wonder whether he would have been better off spending a day
> trying to dig his car out by hand - had they slid off the road? I
> didn't get to see the television reports.Probably wasn't an issue.
> Still - had he survived, we're almost looking at child endangerment.
Which turn are you saying they missed?
The one to Hwy 42? They *were* on the freeway, and couldn't
turn around right away.
The one that put them on the logging road? They *did* try to
turn around, but by then it was snowing so hard, they decided
to spend the night there. No, they didn't slide off the road,
but they were so cold that they ran out of gas keeping the
kids warm....and then burnt their tires as a signal and warmth.
But no one started looking for them, until days after that.
Has anyone here ever seen the old film "Fate is the Hunter"
about an airline crash? It reminds me of this. Lots of
blameless actions came together at the wrong time.
Kris
Kris Baker
"comadreja" <comad...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:TaWdnTC-ctLikOLY...@giganews.com...
> In article <1165952010.3...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>,
> "camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> If you saw the Anderson Cooper hour special last night you would
>> understand.
>
> shouldn't look at the world like Chance in "Being There".
>>
>> First, the road is noted as a viable way to the coast;
>
> careful on it during a summer day. I wouldn't drive it at night, because
> of all the blind curves and climbing 4000 feet in a couple miles from
> Galice. One should be cautious on it anytime of the year, whether
> because of rockslides and washouts to going down one lane with the worry
> that a logging truck is coming down from the opposite direction.
When is NF-23 closed in the winter? The road that was supposed
to be closed, was the one they went down by mistake, because
the gate was left open.
When a map shows a viable road, you should be able to drive
it.
Kris
camille
Kris Baker wrote:
> "camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1165952010.3...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Pokee wrote:
> >> > > Oregon is different from California. I'm used to big honkin' roads -
> >> > > and if it's called a thoroughfare I expect a big road. Imagine the
> >> > > smaller logging roads, which I see all the time shooting off these
> >> > > roads. I can understand how the Kims, coming from California, would
> >> > > not understand the difference in roads up there.
> >> >
> >> > And don't forget that the road is on the maps, unidentified as
> >> > hazardous, and would have seemed a logical route to use.
> >> > I'd have taken it, if I only had a Rand McNally to go by.
> >> >
> >> > kris
> >>
Kris, as usual, we have agreed on this the whole way.
If someone is willing to say it could happen to any of us, then you
really can't turn around and and start second-guessing everything.
All accidents could have been prevented. If JFK used a bubble top
(which the secret service wanted him to use) he wouldn't have died. Do
we accuse him of causing his own death?
If so and so was not driving on the freeway at 2 a.m. on New Year's Day
he wouldn't have been hit by the drunk drver; if so and so wasn't in
the kayak, if he wasn't on the horse, if he hadn't missed the exit, if
he wasn't trying to put up Christmas tree lights.
If the Oregon authorities are saying there was no negligence on James'
part, then why are people still blaming him?
The simple question is: If there was better signage would James Kim
still be alive? Yes or No.
camille
Brigid,
Glad to hear it is not your most favorite road. The weather was fine
when we went through but I was shocked that everyone else (relatives)
seemed to think it was a fine road. I hardly ever drive through Oregon
- usually, I fly to Portland or Bend. I do remember Detroit Lake and I
did notice the remnants of the fire.
In this case we were going to Sisters (Camp Sherman, actually). Would
ths be the same road directly to Bend from Portland? Because all my
relatives head out there all the time in winter from Salem and
Portland. They have cabins on the Metolius and the Deschutes. Another
has a home in Bend.
camille
100% absolutely no way.
Isn't that what OJ said? :-)
Kris Baker
> In article <sjEfh.7234$Ga1....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
> snowbank and ignore the signs ahead.. there are many other logging
> roads that venture off Forest Service Road 23, not just the one that
> gave access to the Black Bar Lodge. Because Anderson Cooper doesn't
> report about them, then they must be inconsequential....
>
> Once again this is from the BLM website.. Besides they had countless
> warnings from the person at the Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce from the
> road signs. etc. etc.
>
> http://www.blm.gov/or/resources/recreation/rogue/shuttle-routes.php
>
>>
>> When a map shows a viable road, you should be able to drive
>> it.
>
> will find out why what the Kims did it was a reckless choice. Maps
> aren't responsible for cold front originating from the Great Slave Lake
> in Canada that hit the Pacific Northwest region on Nov 25th/Nov. 26th.
> There are lot of factors involved that made this into a tragedy, Rand
> McNally or whatever map services or software was a minimal one. Are maps
> responsible for not filling up their gas tank? not having a space
> blanket in their car? eating toxic berries?
I live near roads like that (I'm on a mountainside) and know the
dangers. But my nearby mountain roads, aren't on my map
*unless* they're shown as "closed in winter". Any road not
marked as such, should have snow removal.
Yes, the Kims did some things wrong. But they used valid
information sources to make their decisions.
They aren't the first to have problems there, after believing
a map.
Kris
Pokee
camille wrote:
>
> The simple question is: If there was better signage would James Kim
> still be alive? Yes or No.
Perhaps it would have saved Mr Kim. But, is it the responsibility of
the state to hold the hands of people that make irresponsible choices?
Also, does Oregon state even have the money and resources to improve
signage at all of the 'confusing' logging road access points to save
the people that use poor judgement and are ill-prepared? If they did
do this, what other state resources would suffer as a result? I mean,
they can't put up one sign and ignore all of the other areas that are
equally 'hazardous' and 'confusing', can they? Or is just because this
specific case has so much media attention that this is the only signage
they need to improve?
All I am trying to point out is that the responsibility was initially
with Mr. & Mrs. Kim to decide how to get to Gold Beach. They picked a
route (whether mapped accurately or not) that was obviously on a
lesser-travelled road that goes through high elevations, in the dark
and in cold weather. As a mother with two kids around the same age as
the Kim's, I cannot even fathom taking such a risk with myself - let
alone with my two babies on board.
I am not sure if this is true or not (can't always believe everything
you read on the net), but I read in another report (apparently Kati has
reported this) that the Kims stopped at a Visitors Center that same day
and were specifically told NOT to take that road because it was a
dangerous road. Can anyone confirm this?
Paula
Pokee
comadreja wrote:
>
> What the Kims did was reckless, driving up the road at night in a
> snowstorm with a seven month old infant was reckless.
>
> -c
Agreed. This is a FACT.
I am getting soooo sick of hearing people blaming poor signage and bad
maps on this tragedy. It's like saying a ski hill should put up signs
in the out-of-bounds areas for those snowboarders that like to go off
the main runs - with a baby strapped on their back!
It's not to say that Oregon state isn't in need of some improvements
here and there (accidents always show ways EVERYONE can improve) -
let's just stop playing the blame game here.
This was an accident that was the direct result of poor judgement (like
most motor vehicle accidents). Mr. & Mrs. Kim are human and made a
mistake - like we all do. Their mistake was a big one, and cost their
family a life. Thank the lord those little kids did not have to pay
with their lives, too.
Paula
Pokee
Kris Baker wrote:
> When a map shows a viable road, you should be able to drive
> it.
>
> Kris
Just because you CAN drive on a specific road, doesn't mean you SHOULD.
We all have common sense, don't we? What a map tells us and the
information we derive from other environmental sources should be enough
to make a sensible decision. The Kims threw all sensibility out the
door when they made the choice to take this road.
If this does turn into a lawsuit, I cannot see it holding any merit -
esp. if the information about the Kims being told NOT to take this road
( when stopping at a Vistitor Center) is true.
camille
I think we're talking around the same thing. I guess my feeling is they
obviously did not see it as a risk and being a person who does not live
in Oregon or a snow-bound area, I don't think they can be blamed for
taking a risk they didn't realize existed. If you never ever took a
dark road you wouldn't ever get anywhere - they even have them here in
Californa. :-)
I think in this gadget age and cars that seem set up to deal with
anything, there is a sense that there isn't a danger. I 'm certainly
not in a postion to cast a stone.
Coop
Portland (Wilsonville) and warned to stay on the main route this time of
year.
Kris Baker
Me, neither.
I'd certain hate to be calling the Kim family (basically) "stupid"
like others here are, because I believe in karma.
Kris
Brigid Nelson
>
>
> Brigid,
>
> Glad to hear it is not your most favorite road. The weather was fine
> when we went through but I was shocked that everyone else (relatives)
> seemed to think it was a fine road. I hardly ever drive through Oregon
> - usually, I fly to Portland or Bend. I do remember Detroit Lake and I
> did notice the remnants of the fire.
>
> In this case we were going to Sisters (Camp Sherman, actually). Would
> ths be the same road directly to Bend from Portland? Because all my
> relatives head out there all the time in winter from Salem and
> Portland. They have cabins on the Metolius and the Deschutes. Another
> has a home in Bend.
>
Actually 22 only goes from Salem to Sisters. 26 goes most of the way
from Portland to Bend but doesn't go through Sisters. I don't think
there is *one* single highway that will take you from Portland all the
way to Sisters.
I'm pretty sure there are only two routes to Grandma's house from here:
Over Mount Hood, through the desert scrublands and the Warm Springs
Reservation, or I5 to Salem and through the much prettier Santiam Pass.
Here's a decent map:
http://masl.to/?I2C552D5E
I know that there are some backroads that some people find attractive -
including me but the spousal unit cringes when I suggest adding hours of
drive time to the trip by taking 99 and I think it's 214 past Silver
Creek Falls which them dumps onto 22 just east of Salem. From the
original report of the amount of time it took you, I would assume that
you did the 22 thing.
brigid
Brigid Nelson
> camille wrote:
>
>
>>The simple question is: If there was better signage would James Kim
>>still be alive? Yes or No.
>
>
> Perhaps it would have saved Mr Kim. But, is it the responsibility of
> the state to hold the hands of people that make irresponsible choices?
> Also, does Oregon state even have the money and resources to improve
> signage at all of the 'confusing' logging road access points to save
> the people that use poor judgement and are ill-prepared? If they did
> do this, what other state resources would suffer as a result? I mean,
> they can't put up one sign and ignore all of the other areas that are
> equally 'hazardous' and 'confusing', can they? Or is just because this
> specific case has so much media attention that this is the only signage
> they need to improve?
>
>
I'm pretty sure that signage on logging roads would be the
responsibility of the feds - BLM.
It's been about a dozen years since my dad retired from ODOT, but he was
the guy that put on the maps where the signs go on the highways. I
won't be talking to him until christmas, but if we're all still
interested then, I'll ask him.
brigid
Kris Baker
Of course we will be, even if you just drop in to alt.true-crime.
(Yeah, I know...but it started out as a possible crime.)
Kris
Brigid Nelson
I had to stop reading ATC - too damned depressing.
b