James Kim Found Dead
camille
Francisco resident James Kim was found in the southern Oregon mountains
today, 11 days after his family's car became stuck on a side road in
the snow and four days after he ventured off to look for help.
A helicopter crew located Kim, 35, in a steep canyon known as the Big
Windy Creek drainage, close to the Rogue River, where searchers had
been focusing their efforts for the past several days.
Arrangements were being made to remove Kim's body from the area,
authorities said.
Josephine County Undersheriff Brian Anderson choked up as he announced
the news at search-and-rescue headquarters in Grants Pass.
"We want the Kim family to know that we appreciate all of their support
-- they have been true champions throughout this whole ordeal,'' Oregon
State Police Lt. Gregg Hastings said. "We just want them to know that
our thoughts and our prayers have been with them from day one."
The discovery marked the end of a saga that was closely watched in San
Francisco, where James Kim worked at the tech news site Cnet, and
around the nation.
Kim left his wife and two daughters Saturday morning to look for help,
a week after the family became stranded off Bear Camp Road in the
mountains between Grants Pass and Gold Beach. His wife, Kati, 30, and
daughters Penelope, 4, and 7-month-old Sabine remained with their car
and were rescued Monday.
Hastings said that "the commitment by those involved in the search for
Kati, for the kids and for James has gone nonstop around the clock.
This is obviously extremely tough on those who have had an emotional
commitment over the last several days here.''
The canyon where James Kim's body was found was a couple of miles from
where the family's 2005 Saab station wagon became stuck. Authorities
had remained upbeat about his prospects for survival, despite
temperatures that dipped into the 20s.
Earlier in the day, authorities said Kim had been leaving clothing and
bits of maps in the ravine, apparently as a trail for searchers to
track.
Authorities had dropped 18 care packages in the area, each including
clothing, a wool blanket, gloves, waterproof overalls, flares, a
flashlight, a hand-warmer and rations. Each package also had a letter
from Kim's family, authorities said. The packages were paid for by
Kim's father, Spencer Kim, whom Hastings called "a devoted, driven
man." The family also hired helicopters to assist in the search.
About 100 searchers have fanned out in the area every day since Monday.
The Kim family left San Francisco on Nov. 18 for a combined vacation
and work trip for James Kim. They spent Thanksgiving in Seattle with
family, then went to Portland, where they had brunch with a friend Nov.
25.
The Kims then left on their way to a stopover in Gold Beach. At 8:30
that night, the family ate dinner in the central Oregon town of
Roseburg, where authorities say they intended to take state Highway 42
over to the coast.
However, they missed the turnoff, consulted a map and decided to drive
the 55 miles down Interstate 5 to Grants Pass. There they turned onto
Bear Camp Road, which is lightly traveled even in the summer and often
is closed in the winter.
It was stormy, and around the 3,000-foot elevation, about 50 miles from
their intended destination, James Kim turned off onto a gravel road. He
drove about 3 miles and got stuck.
The Kims ran the engine of their station wagon to power its heater, and
when the gas was gone, they burned the tires. They ate what little food
they had, and Kati Kim breastfed her two daughters.
Kati Kim was spotted Monday afternoon by a helicopter the family had
hired, waving an umbrella to which she had affixed reflective tape.
JennP.
"camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1165442469....@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> (12-06) 13:42 PST GRANTS PASS, ORE. -- The body of missing San
> Francisco resident James Kim was found in the southern Oregon mountains
> today, 11 days after his family's car became stuck on a side road in
> the snow and four days after he ventured off to look for help.
Very sad.
JennP.
Trey Harlow
"camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1165442469....@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kris Baker
"Trey Harlow" <tha...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8RHdh.8420$wc5....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>
> Thousands of people die every day in tragic ways.
So we won't miss you a bit?
FragileWarrior
@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:
> Thousands of people die every day in tragic ways.
Oh, yeah? Name 'em.
Cassie
wow, Trey..... there's truly no words to respond to your lack of
compassion.
SyVyN11
"JennP." <jennifer...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:27-dnc8m1YpR3-rY...@comcast.com...
The guy was from Louisville, our stations are pushing this story hard.
he graduated High School here.
>
mikesm...@hotmail.com
riverg...@hotmail.com
When I heard last night that they found a pair of his pants, I figured
that was it for him, the way victims of hypothermia actually feel hot,
not cold, and start shedding clothes. (Living near St. Louis, it
happens every year that victims of *hyper*thermia feel cold during a
heat emergency in the city in the summer and turn on their furnaces.) I
was really sad about James Kim.
camille
A home run for Kris!
camille
Yeah, I wondered about their comments that he was dropping things as
trail markers. A scrap of fabric on a tree branch is one thing, your
entire pair of pants, another. Maybe they said that to try and shield
the family.
b
sounds as if he was alive until shortly before he was found - he was
flashing something reflective....... if only he had stayed puut and/or
walked in circles..... but by then he probably couldn't think straight
very sad
camille
Didn't hear about the flashing part. Considering that Kati had two
frostbitten toes (they're going to be all right), one can only imagine
the shape his limbs would've been in had he survived.
It 's just so sad. For some reason, it really hit me hard. I spent the
whole day checking for updates and cried when I heard.
camille
Update from www.cnet.com (where he worked):
"Kim, 35, left his family's stranded car Saturday morning searching
for help and never returned. Kim apparently traveled in an 8-mile
circle and was found less than a mile, separated by a sheer cliff, from
where his family's station wagon got stuck in the snow. Officers said
there was no way to determine whether he was trying to get back or if
he became disoriented."
LidsvilleNine
It's very sad, especially that someone could be such a dumbass. One
wonders if he was trying to get into the Guinness book of World Records
for the longest succession of asinine moves.
>
camille
There are two ways of looking at it:
ME FIRST: thinking solely of himself. So yeah, it was a dumbass move
as there was a very high risk for him by venturing out.
FAMILY FIRST: thinkign beyond himself. Seven days and seven nghts, no
sign of rescue, food almost gone, frostbite setting in. His venturing
out widened the net; if he's found first, either living or dead, the
rescuers would know the car was nearby. He heroically established TWO
POINTS OF REFERENCE for the car rescue. Mathematically, he increased
the odds of dicovery.
While staying together has the highest probability of success, it is
not a 100% gaurantee. Every situation is different. And if it weren't
for those helicopters his family paid for, the outcome for the car
people would have been worse, for sure.
I wished I'd known him. From all accunts, a rational, nice, smart guy.
Kris Baker
>
>
> There are two ways of looking at it:
>
> ME FIRST: thinking solely of himself. So yeah, it was a dumbass move
> as there was a very high risk for him by venturing out.
>
> FAMILY FIRST: thinkign beyond himself. Seven days and seven nghts, no
> sign of rescue, food almost gone, frostbite setting in. His venturing
> out widened the net; if he's found first, either living or dead, the
> rescuers would know the car was nearby. He heroically established TWO
> POINTS OF REFERENCE for the car rescue. Mathematically, he increased
> the odds of dicovery.
>
> While staying together has the highest probability of success, it is
> not a 100% gaurantee. Every situation is different. And if it weren't
> for those helicopters his family paid for, the outcome for the car
> people would have been worse, for sure.
>
> I wished I'd known him. From all accunts, a rational, nice, smart guy.
>
Brava!
I'm listening to Nancy (Ugh!) Grace right now, and they mentioned
the road signs. The road that the Kims took is apparently an
18-mile dead-end, that *looks* like the main road but it is not. There's
some argument whether it's a road sign problem, or whether the
signs were stolen (as previous reports said).
Kris
b
i was wondering about that
around here there are some roads that don't have winter maintenance and
there is an unambiguous posted sign at both ends
avery
"Kris Baker" <kris....@prodigyyyy.net> wrote in message
news:y%Ldh.2905$Ga1...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
Oh, lord. That cross-eyed, sharp-beaked hysteric has to find some *perp* to
shriek about, even if it's a road sign (or lack of one).
camille
Oregon is not outer Mongolia - for God's sake, they really need to get
the signage right up there if these roads are so treacherous. Or how
about just CLOSING them in winter?
camille
Kris Baker wrote:
> "camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1165462291.5...@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > There are two ways of looking at it:
> >
> > ME FIRST: thinking solely of himself. So yeah, it was a dumbass move
> > as there was a very high risk for him by venturing out.
> >
> > FAMILY FIRST: thinkign beyond himself. Seven days and seven nghts, no
> > sign of rescue, food almost gone, frostbite setting in. His venturing
> > out widened the net; if he's found first, either living or dead, the
> > rescuers would know the car was nearby. He heroically established TWO
> > POINTS OF REFERENCE for the car rescue. Mathematically, he increased
> > the odds of dicovery.
> >
> > While staying together has the highest probability of success, it is
> > not a 100% gaurantee. Every situation is different. And if it weren't
> > for those helicopters his family paid for, the outcome for the car
Actually, I can't recall where I saw it today (maybe CNET?) but I saw a
photo of the sign on the road. It says Bear Gulch Road and under it, a
couple of locations with miles and the last location on the sign says
Gold Coast 55 miles. It looked like a legitimate sign telling you this
road took you to the Gold Coast. (I assume this was the sign in
question.)
camille
Road they were found on is wider than main road.
Partial article:
"A private helicopter pilot who says he spotted James Kim's footprints
in the snow and then located Kim's wife and children alive in the
southern Oregon mountains had a hunch the family had made a mistake
common to motorists unfamiliar with the area.
That mistake was taking a wrong turn as Bear Camp Road climbs high into
the mountains out of Grants Pass. Veer left, and the road continues to
Gold Beach, the Kims' intended destination the night of Nov. 25. Veer
right, and it's more than 15 miles down a logging road with no outlet.
The logging road could easily pass for the main route where it splits
off from Bear Camp Road, he said. "It's a major road because they did a
lot of logging -- it is wider than the correct road."
Full article:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/PILOT.TMP
Photo of sign:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/default?o=24&f=/c/a/2006/12/07/FAMILY.TMP&type=default
LidsvilleNine
camille wrote:
> LidsvilleNine wrote:
> > JennP. wrote:
> > > "camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:1165442469....@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > > (12-06) 13:42 PST GRANTS PASS, ORE. -- The body of missing San
> > > > Francisco resident James Kim was found in the southern Oregon mountains
> > > > today, 11 days after his family's car became stuck on a side road in
> > > > the snow and four days after he ventured off to look for help.
> > >
> > > Very sad.
> >
> > It's very sad, especially that someone could be such a dumbass. One
> > wonders if he was trying to get into the Guinness book of World Records
> > for the longest succession of asinine moves.
> > >
>
> There are two ways of looking at it:
Both ways are moot if he doesn't venture onto unused back roads to
cover up a missed turn. All the jerk had to do was turn around and
backtrack. Too late to "put family first" once he gets them stuck in
no-man's land in the dead of Winter.
>
camille
Here is a link to the sign:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/default?o=24&f=/c/a/2006/12/07/FAMILY.TMP&type=default
A.
No, not by all accounts. Well - I know what you mean. When I stranded
myself in the snow one time, I could have been described as rational,
nice and smart (though a gal) at the time. My dad called me: You.
STOOPID. Little. Jerk. It's the only time in my whole life my dad
used the word stupid to or about me. Or Jerk.
I wrote a rather lengthy post on alt.true-crime about all the things he
did wrong - there are too many to mention, and it does give one pause,
to think that a person would not know that about themselves and still
have two children. It takes two to tango though - and I hate to say
that. When two adults are stranded together (with or without children)
their chances of survival *do* increase (than if two people are
stranded separately) - but, only insofar as the two people dialogue and
plan - together.
I totally agree with you that somehow, like Hamlet, this guy is heroic
- but I agree with the earlier poster who points out the series of
asinine moves (it's just so hard to consider someone "smart" and
"rational" in general - when at a crucial point in time, they fail to
show those qualities, I'm sorry - it's just in the nature of some of us
to think that way).
He was heroic, made a series of bad decisions, then panicked, in my
view. But remained true to the heroic ideal, which is why I still pray
for him - and believe he will be remembered and honored by his family,
and by many of us, for a long time to come - but not for his
"smartness" or his "rationality" - or his luck (his was awful, mine -
when I could have faced something similar but out of sheer luck, did
not - was better luck).
For his courage and his heroism - and his risk of himself for others.
Without knowledge, rationality itself is almost worthless in the
wilderness.
A.
camille
Here is the main sign (although I guess he may have turned onto a
smaller road in there):
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/default?o=24&f=/c/a/2006/12/07/FAMILY.TMP&type=default
A.
No, not by all accounts. Well - I know what you mean. When I stranded
chef_boyhowdy!
> For his courage and his heroism - and his risk of himself for others.
> Without knowledge, rationality itself is almost worthless in the
> wilderness.
>
Coulda happened to a lot of people.
this morning on the Today show, somebody mentioned that they saw bear
tracks and wondered if he got spooked off the main road by bears following
him? Good Lord. An awful situation made worse. Poor guy.
A.
No, not by all accounts. Well - I know what you mean. When I stranded
For his courage and his heroism - and his risk of himself for others.
Without knowledge, rationality itself is almost worthless in the
wilderness.
A.
A.
I do feel for him. I've seen lots of bears in that area - but never
felt frightened of them, not even as a kid. The bears prefer strongly
not to interact with people and aside from the rare case of a person
getting in between a mother bear and her cub, virtually no one has been
harmed by a black bear. One black bear - about 50 years ago - started
attacking to protect a fishing hole - in the California Sierras, IIRC,
but none have been known to attack unprovoked (although they'll eat
your food).
Source: Bear Attacks.
A.
Kris Baker
>
> Kris Baker wrote:
>> "camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:1165462291.5...@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > There are two ways of looking at it:
>> >
>> > ME FIRST: thinking solely of himself. So yeah, it was a dumbass move
>> > as there was a very high risk for him by venturing out.
>> >
>> > FAMILY FIRST: thinkign beyond himself. Seven days and seven nghts, no
>> > sign of rescue, food almost gone, frostbite setting in. His venturing
>> > out widened the net; if he's found first, either living or dead, the
>> > rescuers would know the car was nearby. He heroically established TWO
>> > POINTS OF REFERENCE for the car rescue. Mathematically, he increased
>> > the odds of dicovery.
>> >
>> > While staying together has the highest probability of success, it is
>> > not a 100% gaurantee. Every situation is different. And if it weren't
>> > for those helicopters his family paid for, the outcome for the car
>
> Actually, I can't recall where I saw it today (maybe CNET?) but I saw a
> photo of the sign on the road. It says Bear Gulch Road and under it, a
> couple of locations with miles and the last location on the sign says
> Gold Coast 55 miles. It looked like a legitimate sign telling you this
> road took you to the Gold Coast. (I assume this was the sign in
> question.)
That sign is on the road they turned off of.
Kris
Kris Baker
Yeah, and one little arrow that indicates "straight ahead" for the coast.
People tend to stay on the road that looks right to them.
Kris
Kris
Kris Baker
"comadreja" <comad...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mo6dnfZZyNyPrOXY...@comcast.com...
> In article <1165471948.2...@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
> Forest Service Numbers, because they are used mainly by Logging trucks
> and for logging areas.
>
> The State of Oregon has no control over the roads, they are maintained
> and paid for by the US Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management
> via the US taxpayer.
>
> They can't close the roads because some of the roads run through private
> property, and it is against the law to close a gov't road that bars
> access to private property. Thank the property rights movement for that
> one.
State roads here, that lead to private property, are closed every
winter and are closed right now. Monte Cristo (U-39) , High
Uintas and the Idaho highway between Preston and Montpelier
are just a few I can think of right now. Some are closed in the
fall and reopen in late spring; others are temporarily closed
depending upon snowpack. There are physical gates that
are used to close them. (Kind of like the ones on I-80 through
Wyoming.)
Kris
chef_boyhowdy!
not arguing your point, but, out alone backpacking in the Canadian Rockies
once, I got the piss scared out of me by a gigantic black bear, who
suddenly appeared out of nowhere on the trail, about ten feet away.
Frightening.
If it woulda been a grizzly, I guess I wouldnt be here now.
BUT, alone, freezing, disoriented, panic'd, fearing for your life and your
families lives, and then bears of ANY kind appear.. oh man.
I'd be terrified too. His last hours must have been hell.
camille
The road they took has a gate that had not ben closed despite the fact
that the road was not to be used in winter (although it is not winter
yet, technically).
Having been in Oregon a lot, I think they could do a lot to improve
signage. They like things looking natural but there are tons of these
offshoot roads. Even the main roads are smallish. And the guy who
found the amaily said the cut-off road was wider than Bear Gulch - and
people mess up there all the time.
camille
I have no doubt he panicked and he would have been best just staying on
the road they were on, which I think I would've done (but who knows).
It would not be my idea to venture down a rocky dangerous terrain next
to a creek, but I guess they used to say to try and get to water, so
had I been with him - would I have fought that idea - we're making
ourselves harder to be found - or would I go along with what he
probably had read and heard? You just don't know when you get in that
situation. You must just goes nuts in a way.
Basically I feel we could all end up doing the same thing no matter
what we say on high dry ground, so I give him my sympathy. He meant
well.
Trey Harlow
"Cassie" <natura...@email.com> wrote in message
news:1165447581....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>
> Kris Baker wrote:
>> "Trey Harlow" <tha...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:8RHdh.8420$wc5....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>> >
>> > Thousands of people die every day in tragic ways.
>>
>> So we won't miss you a bit?
>
>
> wow, Trey..... there's truly no words to respond to your lack of
> compassion.
Who said I lack compassion? I just don't get teary eyed every time someone
dies who I don't know.
And I don't let the news media tell me which deaths are important to me
becauise they deem them so.
>
Kris Baker
Sounds like it.
I just found an onine story (I posted it on alt.true-crime) that talks
about the mistakes the Kims made.
The most interesting thing is this: they used a paper map to find
that road. I had suspected they'd used online mapping, but
according to Kati Kim, they hadn't done that.
So the road they took, shows on a map. Whether the map says
"closed in winter" (or a warning) we don't know. But they apparently
ignored some signs that indicated there could be trouble ahead.
Never be ashamed to turn back.
Kris
blue
of....they have lost their daddy, and right before the holiday season. The
one is too young to miss him until she's old enough to "know" to miss a
daddy, and the other is definitely old enough for this to be devastating.
Poor kids. My heart is breaking. I feel sad that the wife has lost her
husband of course but it's the kids who really break my heart.
Travoltron
comadreja wrote:
> The Kims continue to their journey on Bear Camp road when there were
> obvious signs that this was a bad idea, there is no lighting, no
> guardrails, it is paved mainly and a one lane road, but it is not
> maintained, and there are plenty of parts that aren't paved because the
> road slid away in years past. They moved rocks/boulders out of the road
> to continue their journey, even that should had been an obvious sign
> they should had turned back. They took this monster in the dark, in the
> winter with a major storm hitting the area, with no proper maps. To get
> off the road, they either had to break open a locked access gate, or it
> was vandalized before they got there. There are plenty of State and
> Federal Highways to the Oregon Coast that don't get up to 4800 feet in
> elevation. They took one of the worst roads possible for their car at
> the one of the worst possible times of the year.
>
> If someone from Talent, Oregon or Phoenix, Oregon did the same thing,
> as the Kims did, they would probably arrest them for child endangerment
> and reckless driving. It is very sad of what happened, but when people
> point fingers at gov't agencies or State gov't for this tragedy, they
> have to realize that the Kims continue their trek, when Mother Nature
> and the road told them countless times it was time to turn back and get
> on a highway to get to the Oregon Coast. They continue being completely
> unprepared if there was an emergency.
>
> -c
LidsvilleNine
It sucks to say this, but it's a true thought: This guy could have
gotten those kids killed if he got another chance to take them out for
adventure.
LidsvilleNine
>
> Never be ashamed to turn back.
Amen, Kris. I hope everyone reads your sentence a couple of times.
"Bumper stickers should be issued" - Neil Young
>
> Kris
camille
While this is true most of the time, I actually think the public
dictacted the media response on this one. It just grabbed people in a
visceral way. For reasons unknown, I felt like I knew him. Obviously
you and others were immune, but I, for one, was not led by the nose by
the media.
Kris Baker
>
> Trey Harlow wrote:
>> >
>
> While this is true most of the time, I actually think the public
> dictacted the media response on this one. It just grabbed people in a
> visceral way. For reasons unknown, I felt like I knew him. Obviously
> you and others were immune, but I, for one, was not led by the nose by
> the media.
Isn't it funny how those who claim to be immune, are the ones
who jump in with venom towards the victim(s)? "I don't let
the news media tell me which deaths are imortant" while
meanwhile showing us his visceral reaction to something he
obviously wanted to read ;)
Kris
avery
"Kris Baker" <kris....@prodigyyyy.net> wrote in message
news:j00eh.5326$hI....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
You know, this may sound unforgivably corny and all but there's something
nice about the fact that a story like this can still strike a chord (and I'm
not referring to the venomous responders -- that's a whole other ball of
wax) with so many people in today's "jaded" age. There were no drugs
involved, no vicious murder, no sleazy crime, no drug intrigue, no
complicated sexual twist, no affairs, no baby on the way, just a real family
tragedy that instills nothing but a pure, heartfelt, almost old-fashioned
kind of sadness.
Dustbunny
I live in Portland and this story has been all over the local news here --
obviously -- anyhoo, the Oregonian said that "official" maps issued by the
OR Dept. of Transportation have a warning not to take that road in winter.
They didn't know which map the Kims used though -- apparently Rand McNally
maps don't have the same warning.
Evelyn
camille
Yeah, exactly. They follow every move in the media unrelentingly.
Kris Baker
"Dustbunny" <who...@earthlinc.net> wrote in message
news:bg3eh.7884$tM1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...>
> I live in Portland and this story has been all over the local news here --
> obviously -- anyhoo, the Oregonian said that "official" maps issued by the
> OR Dept. of Transportation have a warning not to take that road in winter.
> They didn't know which map the Kims used though -- apparently Rand McNally
> maps don't have the same warning.
>
> Evelyn
I've got Rand McNally right in front of me.
The road *is* shown on the Oregon two-pager as a
light gray line that means "Other roads". There's a
note to go to Page 1 for more info on the symbols.
If you go to Page 1:(actually it's about the 8th page in),
it says:
"Other roads (conditions vary - local inquiry suggested)."
In other words, someone travelling in the dark who sees
the road on the map, might just take it without
investigating the entire scope of the road map.
R-M also shows it as a scenic route. There's no warning
about "closed in winter", only that it goes through the
Wild Rogue Wilderness Area.
I've been wondering how far they were past their
turn-off to the good road (Hwy 42, I suspect), that made
this pig-in-a-poke look like the best choice late at night.
From the Glendale turnoff, it's about 60 miles north to
the Hwy 42 turnoff.
Kris
veryrich
Kris, I'm following this obliquely (I'm wildly busy with other stuff)
but on the website for the lodge they were going to stay in -- tu tum
something? -- there's a map that makes this road look both direct -- as
in straight across -- and unrestricted. Of course, the written
directions don't include it, but if I were looking at the Tu Tum map or
had looked at it, I'd think it was an okay road. veryrich
Kris Baker
"veryrich" <vvvr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165549519....@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hi, stranger
http://tututun.com/images/tututun_map.pdf - right?
Oh. My. God.
You're mostly right about it. If you look at it quickly OR if you printed
the map on "color saving", you'd think that's the road to follow. It's
not. That dull-blue color is the Rogue River, but the B&B site
sure as hell makes it look like the road they ended up taking.
We can see so many things wrong in hindsight; it's too bad we
don't have that time machine Denzel and Val have in "Deja Vu".
I wonder if they printed that out? If I were traveling in the dark,
and referred to it...........
Kris
I saved that one to my hard drive, in case "we" need it later.
veryrich
That's exactly the image I had in mind. If they missed the earlier
cutover, I could see one or both of them saying, gee, I remember seeing
a road on the Tututun map...
Thanks for saving it. veryrich
LidsvilleNine
Kris Baker wrote:
>
> Oh. My. God.
>
> You're mostly right about it. If you look at it quickly OR if you printed
> the map on "color saving", you'd think that's the road to follow. It's
> not. That dull-blue color is the Rogue River, but the B&B site
> sure as hell makes it look like the road they ended up taking.
That's quite plausible. Some very intelligent people just aren't great
with maps, and that map isn't too great.
camille
Hmmm, Kris, good detective work. Yeah, when they have some sort of
asterisk with the explanation on another page (or even in small print
at tthe bottom of the page) that isn't something people always see.
But remember, the guy that rescued them said that logging road is wider
than Bear Gulch. So it probably didn't look that puny, at least when
they first got on it.
camille
The only prob with this is they have more info and Kati is saying they
knew they took a wrong road.
camille
Not that it sn't a very good theory, but they had another map because
Kati says that James took off thinking some little town was 4 miles
away (something like Creeley) but it was really 15 miles away. But
Kati told someone they both pored over the map and were convnced it
was four miles away and that was where he was headed.
Although the tututun map fills in some things I didn't understand. The
lodge is right on the Rogue River and Bear Gulch being so close to it
on the lodge map is what probably made him go toward the river,
thinking there was civilization and the lodge, too.
Kris Baker
"LidsvilleNine" <Lidsvi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1165551514....@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
So we now have two maps that could have easily led them astray.
Sheesh. I wonder if they missed the warning signs, because
of the heavy snow?
Kris
Kris Baker
The dead-end road they turned onto after travelling several miles,
was the road that was wider.
NF-23 is a paved one-laner, with gravel at the very top (highest
part), according to what I can find and that's apparently the one
I'm seeing on the map.
Kris
Kris Baker
Oh, definitely. But if they saw it as a recommended possibility.....
Kris
>
Kris Baker
The town he thought he was heading for, was Galice. But since he
wasn't where he thought he was, he didn't find the town. Galice is
north of NF-23 on a different road than they were stuck on, and
I think they thought they were still on 23.
What a mess.
Kris
camille
Right, my mistake. I'm getting confused with all these roads. :-)
Kris Baker
I wish they'd just call them by the numbers, instead of the names.
Kris
camille
No, they didn't. This is based on the same article I read. They got on
the road and then I guess fairly soon saw these warnings signs. She
says they saw warning signs and then it started snowing really hard.
Not sure of the actual step by step here.
They tried to turn around (which is how they got stuck). They had to
get out in the snow and get the car turned around, which they did do
and then they drove back a little ways in the direction they had come,
but then stopped when they hit a fork in the road thinking they could
be found there. They were running out of gas from all the maneuvers
trying to turn around, she said.
camille
Here is the article with Kati's version of events:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/BAGLKMRFBK7.DTL
subscriber1997
"avery" <doom...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Uk0eh.52113$Fw5....@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
yes boyz n girlz underneath that jaded crusty
facade beats a real doomie heart just as trite
and predictable as a Frank Capra movie
and twice as schmaltzy !!!
btw Kim shooda stayed in the car
let that be a lesson to y'all STAY in the car !
Kris Baker
Wasn't one of the warning signs supposedly right when they got
on NF-23, at Merlin? That's when they should have turned
around.
It's looking like "lack of gas" may have been their biggest problem,
because they could have driven out later or set a bigger fire.
Kris
theresa
Sometimes, you die when you stay with the car --
God...@yahoo.com
Like I said before,
Never let your tank get below half a tank when traveling with children
avery
"theresa" <emil...@yoodoo.com> wrote in message
news:4579A93B...@yoodoo.com...
True, but you have to understand that we all suddenly become grizzled
veterans on wilderness/rescue matters, not having been in the car and all
but having read the reports and seen the outcome. Kind of like when, after
9/11, we all suddenly became honorary industrial engineers ,intimately
acquainted with the physics of reinforced-skyscraper collapse patterns, the
melting point of steel, the explosive dynamics of jet-fuel combustion, and
an insider's eye view of the various conspiracy theories being hatched to
misled everybody else.
Coop
At a Thursday press conference, Lt. Gregg Hastings of the Oregon State
Police shared details provided by Kati Kim of how the family became
stranded and what searchers learned about the final days of James Kim’s
life.
Friday, Nov. 17: The Kim family departs San Francisco in family car for
Seattle.
Friday, Nov. 24: The Kims leave Seattle for Portland.
Saturday, Nov. 25: The Kims leave Portland for the Tu Tu Tun Lodge in
Gold Beach. They are last seen eating dinner at a Denny’s in Roseburg,
leaving around 9 pm to drive through the mountains to the coast.
The Kims miss their intended turnoff. At about 10:30 pm, they instead
turn west onto Bear Camp Road. Kati Kim describes the road as
“confusing.” They see signs warning of possible snow ahead. It begins
snowing.
The Kims decide to turn back but the road is difficult to follow. Kati
Kim describes snow falling hard as James drives the car in reverse back
down the road with his driver door open so he can see where he’s going.
At some point, the family winds up on a road that forks off Bear Camp
Road. They continue about 15 more miles before they stop for the night.
It is now about 2 a.m.
Computer records show one of the Kims' cell phones receiving two text
messages around 1:30 a.m.
Sunday, November 26: Snow and rain fall throughout the day. The Kims
stay in their car, turning the engine at times on for warmth.
Monday, November 27: Snow continues, falling heavily at times. Again,
the Kims stay in the car, running the engine briefly for warmth but they
are low on fuel.
Tuesday, November 28: More snow and rain.
Wednesday, November 29: The weather starts to clear.
Thursday, November 30: The Kims take their spare tire and set it on fire
for warmth.
Friday, December 1: The Kims burn all four remaining tires. Kati Kim
reports hearing a helicopter nearby.
Saturday, December 2: James Kim makes a fateful decision to hike out to
get help. He believes, wrongly, that he is only five miles from the town
of Galice. In fact, he is about 15 miles away. He sets out with a
packpack and extra clothes at 7:40 a.m., telling Kati he expects to be
back by 1 p.m. He builds a fire for his wife and children before he
leaves. It is the last time Kati will see her husband alive.
Monday, Dec. 4: At about 1:45 p.m., a helicopter spots Kati Kim and her
two children near the family car. The mother and two girls are rescued
safely.
Tuesday, Dec. 5: Search and rescue personnel find clothes identified as
those of James Kim, arranged in a pattern that may have been intended to
give searchers clues to his whereabouts.
Wednesday, Dec. 6: Shortly after 12 p.m., the body of James Kim is found
at the bottom of Big Windy Creek, half a mile from the Rogue River. He
is found face up, fully clothed, in one to two feet of water.
Searchers conclude that a “highly motivated” James traveled 10 miles in
blue jeans and sneakers over rugged terrain before succumbing to
exposure and hypothermia.
camille
Not necessarily. Aritcle in paper this week: same road the Kims were
on, several years back. A guy got stranded, stayed in his car. They
found his body in the spring (still in the car).
Also in March of this year, same road again, people stranded were saved
after they hiked out. Oregon had no helicopters to search for them,
merely those sno-plow machines.
BTW, the guy who stayed in the car? At the time, a lot of talk that he
should have left the car. It's a crapshoot. You win, you did the
right thing, you lose, you did the wrong thing.
Kris Baker
That's right. And I agree that this is the kind of human story that
we could *all* find ourselves in (including the "I'm above that!" types
in this thread). We could be on that road in the summer, and
get hit by a rockslide, drive or slide off an embankment, etc.
The road was on the map, without warnings. The Tu Tu Tun
website directions have that curious map image that *looks* like
a road (but is the river).
The thing that really did them in, was that they were running low
on gas. Otherwise, they could have driven themselves out
in a couple of days.
Kris
Coop
Kris Baker wrote:
#1 You don't drive up an unfamiliar road into the mountains like that
in the middle of the night when the forecasters had been predicting a
major winter storm hitting that night for a couple of days. The major
roads themselves across the passes can get pretty harry during a winter
storm.
#2 Always leave the valley with a full tank of gas.
camille
Again, it could happen to ALL of us.
Kris Baker
>
>
> Again, it could happen to ALL of us.
>
That's right. If they'd had a full tank of gas, they could have
had a leak. If they'd not taken Hwy 23, a big semi may have
crossed I-5 and hit them head-on. If they'd stayed in Roseburg,
they may have been in the path of a bad storm on a freeway
full of anxious travelers.
Sometimes, it's your time.
Kris
camille
Well I have found my first piece of real evidence that James did a very
foolish thing. Excerpted from SF Chron:
"They passed signs warning Bear Camp Road may be blocked by snow, but
kept going. At times James had to stick his head out the window to see
through the falling snow, said Hastings."
I KNOW that I, for one, would not do that.
Kris Baker
Men do it.
I think the problem is that they thought they were halfway through
the road, so going back may have seemed as bad as driving on.
Kris
camille
Agreed, men do do it. I am still very sympathetic and stick by the
notion that we could all end up in his situation, because even if I
might not have done that particular thing, we all at some point had
warnings pop up in our head but forged ahead anyhow - like you said -
"we've gone this far."
The thing that really haunts me is the end, when he has no strength and
he reaches the impassable part. They said the water was 30 feet across
with cliffs hugging the water on both sides. He's in the ice cold
water looking at that. No hope left at all.
Kris Baker
>
>> Kris
>
> Agreed, men do do it. I am still very sympathetic and stick by the
> notion that we could all end up in his situation, because even if I
> might not have done that particular thing, we all at some point had
> warnings pop up in our head but forged ahead anyhow - like you said -
> "we've gone this far."
>
> The thing that really haunts me is the end, when he has no strength and
> he reaches the impassable part. They said the water was 30 feet across
> with cliffs hugging the water on both sides. He's in the ice cold
> water looking at that. No hope left at all.
Are you watching CNN tonight? They just had a report (on Anderson
Cooper) from the location they were stuck at. They also interviewed
the owner of the Black Bar Lodge, which the family was quite near,
if they had known. They could have actually walked to it, gone in,
got warm, and been safe for a long time.
Kris
LidsvilleNine
camille wrote:
> Coop wrote:
> > Kris Baker wrote:
> >
> > > "camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > >
> > > The thing that really did them in, was that they were running low
> > > on gas. Otherwise, they could have driven themselves out
> > > in a couple of days.
> > >
> > > Kris
> > >
> >
> > #1 You don't drive up an unfamiliar road into the mountains like that
> > in the middle of the night when the forecasters had been predicting a
> > major winter storm hitting that night for a couple of days. The major
> > roads themselves across the passes can get pretty harry during a winter
> > storm.
> >
> > #2 Always leave the valley with a full tank of gas.
>
> Again, it could happen to ALL of us.
Oh pity!
Please speak for yourself. I hope you don't do the driving in your
fambly.
Kris Baker
You're only safe locking yourself in a cell.
ass...@inmail24.com
Exhibition.
ass...@inmail24.com
Dustbunny
> on, several years back. A guy got stranded, stayed in his car. They
> found his body in the spring (still in the car).
>
> Also in March of this year, same road again, people stranded were saved
> after they hiked out. Oregon had no helicopters to search for them,
> merely those sno-plow machines.
Hey, we have helicopters here in Oregon! And running water too : P
I believe the county where the road is located owns only 1 helicopter tho...
Evelyn
FragileWarrior
news:1165628262.1...@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com:
So how do we know he could SEE the sign?
Kris Baker
"FragileWarrior" <FragileWarrior@f'loonsmustdie.com> wrote in message
news:eled9g$kl8$9...@blackhelicopter.databasix.com...
>>
>> "They passed signs warning Bear Camp Road may be blocked by snow, but
>> kept going. At times James had to stick his head out the window to see
>> through the falling snow, said Hastings."
>
>
> So how do we know he could SEE the sign?
I doubt if he could see it. The signs were *before* the took the
wrong turnoff. Also, the road sign with the mileage to their
intended destination, is also beyond that turnoff. Couple that
with the vandalized gate, and they were doomed.
If the gate had been locked, they'd have been forced to go back
to Bear Camp Road....which was searched by vehicle and helicopter
early on in the search. No one predicted they'd turn off onto a
"locked" road.
Kris
camille
Sorry, that was what I meant! :-)
I love Oregon.
Ah...@mactan.gov
begin with. Relying on an aerial search as your primary is grossly
wrong in that kind of country -- The first thing they should have
done was get some bloodhounds from the state of Georgia penal system.
They rarely miss finding what they are let loose on.
Ah...@mactan.gov
Obviously you have never heard the truth that's in Hank Williams Jr.
singing, " Country Boy Will Survive.";
The preacher man says it’s the end of time
And the Mississippi River she’s a goin’ dry
The interest is up and the Stock Markets down
And you only get mugged
If you go down town
I live back in the woods, you see
A woman and the kids, and the dogs and me
I got a shotgun rifle and a 4-wheel drive
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive
I can plow a field all day long
I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
Ain’t too many things these ole boys can’t do
We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive
Because you can’t starve us out
And you cant makes us run
Cause one-of- ‘em old boys raisin ole shotgun
And we say grace and we say Ma’am
And if you ain’t into that we don’t give a damn
We came from the West Virginia coalmines
And the Rocky Mountains and the and the western skies
And we can skin a buck; we can run a crop line
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive
I had a good friend in New York City
He never called me by my name, just hillbilly
My grandpa taught me how to live off the land
And his taught him to be a businessman
He used to send me pictures of the Broadway nights
And I’d send him some homemade wine
But he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife
For 43 dollars my friend lost his life
I'd love to spit some beechnut in that dudes eyes
And shoot him with my old 45
Cause a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive
Cause you can’t starve us out and you can’t make us run
Cause one-of- ‘em old boys raisin ole shotgun
And we say grace and we say Ma’am
And if you ain’t into that we don’t give a damn
We’re from North California and south Alabam
And little towns all around this land
And we can skin a buck; we can run a trot line
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive
Kris Baker
<Ah...@Mactan.gov> wrote in message
news:u9mmn296ehmq59urd...@4ax.com...
> On 8 Dec 2006 17:30:11 -0800, "camille" <lin...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Again, it could happen to ALL of us.
>
>
> Obviously you have never heard the truth that's in Hank Williams Jr.
> singing, " Country Boy Will Survive.";
Yeah. Sure worked for his daddy, didn't it?
Isn't Hank Jr the one who got drunk and went mountain climbing,
and split his face in half?
Kris
earthage
I believe the signs warn of snow miles before there is any snow so
people will be aware of the possibility of snow. Signs should probably
say hazardous conditions ahead.
The timeline says they saw at least one sign warning of snow but
sounds like it was close to the area where it started snowing.
Saturday, Nov. 25:
The Kims miss their intended turnoff. At about 10:30 pm, they instead
turn west onto Bear Camp Road. Kati Kim describes the road as
"confusing." They see signs warning of possible snow ahead. It
begins
snowing.
The Kims decide to turn back but the road is difficult to follow. Kati
Kim describes snow falling hard as James drives the car in reverse back
down the road with his driver door open so he can see where he's
going.
Another article says Kati Kim says they didn't see any signs.
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=4832226
The road the Kims tried to take from Grants Pass to the Oregon coast is
a local legend, but a tourists' trap. Miles before it even starts
climbing, signs warn of winter snow conditions -- four signs along the
route as it narrows to one lane and twists into the forest. But Kati
Kim says they missed the warning signs until they were already in heavy
snow.
Kris Baker
"earthage" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1165714196.5...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I think they were also pressured by the amount of gas they had,
and that heavy snow doesn't make it easy to see any sign (let
alone wonder if that's the road you're on).
Sure, they got themselves into a big mess. But I can see where
road signs, missing gate locks, and (evidently) painted words under
the snow-covered pavement sealed their fate.
Kris
camille
I thought I heard them say that animals couldn't be used due to
slippery terrain.
Alex
news:1165551514....@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Kris Baker wrote:
> >
> > Oh. My. God.
> >
> > You're mostly right about it. If you look at it quickly OR if you printed
> > the map on "color saving", you'd think that's the road to follow. It's
> > not. That dull-blue color is the Rogue River, but the B&B site
> > sure as hell makes it look like the road they ended up taking.
>
> That's quite plausible. Some very intelligent people just aren't great
> with maps, and that map isn't too great.
He was the gadget guy, but they didn't have GPS?
How about their cell phones?
Alex
God...@yahoo.com
If they hadn't missed the signs, the empty gas tank would have still
sunk them.
Beth In Alaska
"Alex" <avdeelen.R...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:457d3fb5$0$15194$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
There are plenty of places on the earth where cell phones dont' have
service. Including the one where these folks were stuck.
Kris Baker
"Beth In Alaska" <beth...@spamfreeclearwire.net> wrote in message
news:12nrkjj...@corp.supernews.com...
There *was* a short ping, tracked early on in the search.
earthage
> >> >
> >> > Kris Baker wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Oh. My. God.
> >> >>
> >> >> You're mostly right about it. If you look at it quickly OR if you
> >> >> printed
> >> >> the map on "color saving", you'd think that's the road to follow.
> >> >> It's
> >> >> not. That dull-blue color is the Rogue River, but the B&B site
> >> >> sure as hell makes it look like the road they ended up taking.
> >> >
> >> > That's quite plausible. Some very intelligent people just aren't great
> >> > with maps, and that map isn't too great.
> >>
> >> Sheesh. I wonder if they missed the warning signs, because
> >> of the heavy snow?
> >>
> >> Kris
> >
> > No, they didn't. This is based on the same article I read. They got on
> > the road and then I guess fairly soon saw these warnings signs. She
> > says they saw warning signs and then it started snowing really hard.
> > Not sure of the actual step by step here.
> >
> > They tried to turn around (which is how they got stuck). They had to
> > get out in the snow and get the car turned around, which they did do
> > and then they drove back a little ways in the direction they had come,
> > but then stopped when they hit a fork in the road thinking they could
> > be found there. They were running out of gas from all the maneuvers
> > trying to turn around, she said.
>
> Wasn't one of the warning signs supposedly right when they got
> on NF-23, at Merlin? That's when they should have turned
> around.
>
> It's looking like "lack of gas" may have been their biggest problem,
> because they could have driven out later or set a bigger fire.
>
> Kris
They went down that road for 15 miles. If they had stayed on the main
road, 15 miles would have brought them to Galice.
I was looking at the directions on Google and look at the directions
from Merlin to Gold Beach:
Continue on Galice Rd - go 11.4 mi
Turn left at BLM-34-8-36 - go 12.3 mi
Continue on NF-23 - go 24.3 mi
They were found on BLM 34-8-36. If you look at the map on Google, you
see that Galice Road becomes BLM 34-8-36 and it continues to the right
and to the left is Bear Camp Road, or NF 23.
Kris Baker
...and right at that junction, where NF-23 goes to the left, is where
the meandering and confusing roads begin. My MS S&T shows
the same numbering, too.
Bear Camp starts out as Merlin-Galice, so no one would have realized
that a warning about snow on Bear Camp applied to their road. IF
Bear Camp is the same as NF-23. I don't think anyone knows;
it's all confusing and inbred between the BLM and state ;)
Kris