Uh-Oh: If You Thought Global CO2 Releases Were a Problem, Here Comes the Methane ...
john fernbach
Warming Of Arctic Current Over 30 Years Triggers Release Of Methane
Gas
ScienceDaily (Aug. 14, 2009) — The warming of an Arctic current over
the last 30 years has triggered the release of methane, a potent
greenhouse gas, from methane hydrate stored in the sediment beneath
the seabed.
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HIGHLIGHT: RESEARCHERS FIND "MORE THAN 250 PLUMES" OF
METHANE GAS RISING FROM ARCTIC WATERS OFF SPITSBERGEN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scientists at the National Oceanography Centre Southampton working in
collaboration with researchers from the University of Birmingham,
Royal Holloway London and IFM-Geomar in Germany have found that more
than 250 plumes of bubbles of methane gas are rising from the seabed
of the West Spitsbergen continental margin in the Arctic, in a depth
range of 150 to 400 metres.
Methane released from gas hydrate in submarine sediments has been
identified in the past as an agent of climate change. The likelihood
of methane being released in this way has been widely predicted.
The data were collected from the royal research ship RRS James Clark
Ross, as part of the Natural Environment Research Council's
International Polar Year Initiative. The bubble plumes were detected
using sonar and then sampled with a water-bottle sampling system over
a range of depths.
The results indicate that the warming of the northward-flowing West
Spitsbergen current by 1° over the last thirty years has caused the
release of methane by breaking down methane hydrate in the sediment
beneath the seabed.
Professor Tim Minshull, Head of the University of Southampton's School
of Ocean and Earth Science based at that the National Oceanography
Centre, says: "Our survey was designed to work out how much methane
might be released by future ocean warming; we did not expect to
discover such strong evidence that this process has already started."
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"WE DID NOT EXPECT TO DISCOVER SUCH STRONG EVIDENCE
THAT THIS PROCESS HAS ALREADY STARTED "
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Methane hydrate is an ice-like substance composed of water and methane
which is stable in conditions of high pressure and low temperature.
At present, methane hydrate is stable at water depths greater than 400
metres in the ocean off Spitsbergen. However, thirty years ago it was
stable at water depths as shallow as 360 metres.
This is the first time that such behaviour in response to climate
change has been observed in the modern period.
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SO FAR, MOST OF THE METHANE BEING RELEASED IS
ABSORBED BY THE OCEAN ... BUT FOR HOW LONG?
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While most of the methane currently released from the seabed is
dissolved in the seawater before it reaches the atmosphere, methane
seeps are episodic and unpredictable and periods of more vigorous
outflow of methane into the atmosphere are possible. Furthermore,
methane dissolved in the seawater contributes to ocean acididfication.
Graham Westbrook Professor of Geophysics at the University of
Birmingham, warns: "If this process becomes widespread along Arctic
continental margins, tens of megatonnes of methane per year –
equivalent to 5-10% of the total amount released globally by natural
sources, could be released into the ocean."
SNIP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Journal reference:
Westbrook, G.K. et al. Escape of methane gas from the seabed along the
West Spitsbergen continental margin. Geophysical Research Letters,
2009; DOI: 10.1029/2009GL039191
Adapted from materials provided by National Oceanography Centre,
Southampton (UK).
For the original Science Daily story, click here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090814103231.htm
doctordave
john fernbach
> Do you have to pay the fart tax if you fart or if you are a fart?
If we keep on heating up the planet, DD, we won't have to worry about
any "fart tax."
Let the oceans warm up enough to make the methane hydrates melt, and
the planet will release such a gargantuan fart that you & I won't be
able to catch up.
At least I won't ...
Catoni
Medieval Warm Period, or the Roman Warm Period, or the Eemian Period
or other warm times?
(How in the world did we survive those disasterous times?)
john fernbach
I didn't live through through the Eemian Period, Catoni.
Did you?
I do know that Wikipedia's article on mass extinction events -- yeah,
I know it's a chancy source -- suggests that a "clathrate bullet" or a
suddenly melting of methane clathrates may have been a cause or even
the main cause of the worst extinction event known to geological and
biological history, the so-called "Great Dying" that occurred at the
end of the Permian and the beginning of the Triassaic Age/Period.
Wikipedia also suggests that a "clathrate bullet" or sudden release of
methane from the ocean floors is suspected as a possible cause of a
"smaller mass extinction" during -- uh -- the Paleocene - Eemian
period. Funny coincidence there, don't you think?
========================
From Wikipedia: on suggested causes of past "extinction events,"
including global cooling and global warming:
=================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event
Clathrate gun hypothesis
Main article: Clathrate gun hypothesis
Clathrates are composites in which a lattice of one substance forms a
cage round another. Methane clathrates (in which water molecules are
the cage) form on continental shelves. These clathrates are likely to
break up rapidly and release the methane if the temperature rises
quickly or the pressure on them drops quickly — for example in
response to sudden global warming or a sudden drop in sea level or
even earthquakes. Methane is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than
carbon dioxide, so a methane eruption ("clathrate gun") could cause
rapid global warming or make it much more severe if the eruption was
itself caused by global warming.
The most likely signature of such a methane eruption would be a sudden
decrease in the ratio of carbon-13 to carbon-12 in sediments, since
methane clathrates are low in carbon-13; but the change would have to
be very large, as other events can also reduce the percentage of
carbon-13.[45]
It has been suggested that "clathrate gun" methane eruptions were
involved in the end-Permian extinction ("the Great Dying") and in the
Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, which was associated with one of the
smaller mass extinctions.
==================
More from Wikipedia on the dimensions of the Permian-Triassic
Extinction Event, aka "the Great Dying"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian%E2%80%93Triassic_extinction_event
The Permian–Triassic (P–Tr) extinction event, informally known as the
Great Dying,[1] was an extinction event that occurred 251.4 million
years ago,[2][3] forming the boundary between the Permian and Triassic
geologic periods.
It was the Earth's most severe extinction event, with up to 96 percent
of all marine species[4] and 70 percent of terrestrial vertebrate
species becoming extinct; it is the only known mass extinction of
insects.[5][6] 57% of all families and 83% of all genera were killed
off. Because so much biodiversity was lost, the recovery of life on
earth took significantly longer than after other extinction events.
[4]
This event has been described as the "mother of all mass extinctions".
[7] The pattern of extinction is still disputed,[8] as different
studies suggest one[2] to three[9] different pulses.
There are several proposed mechanisms for the extinctions; the earlier
peak was likely due to gradualistic environmental change, while the
latter was probably due to a catastrophic event. Possible mechanisms
for the latter include large or multiple bolide impact events,
increased volcanism, or sudden release of methane hydrates from the
sea floor; gradual changes include sea-level change, anoxia,
increasing aridity,[10] and a shift in ocean circulation driven by
climate change ...
SNIP
==========
More from the same Wikipedia on the Permian-Triassic Extinction
Event ...
On the possible role of excessive CO2 levels in the oceans ...
The most vulnerable marine organisms were those which produced
calcareous hard parts (i.e. from calcium carbonate) and had low
metabolic rates and weak respiratory systems - notably calcareous
sponges, rugose and tabulate corals, calciate brachiopods, bryozoans,
and echinoderms; about 81% of such genera became extinct.
Close relatives which did not produce calcareous hard parts suffered
only minor losses, for example sea anemones, from which modern corals
later evolved.
Animals which had high metabolic rates, well-developed respiratory
systems and non-calcareous hard parts had negligible losses - except
for conodonts, in which 33% of genera died out.[52]
This pattern is consistent with what is known about the effects of
hypoxia (shortage but not total absence of oxygen). However hypoxia
cannot have been the only killing mechanism for marine organisms:
nearly all of the continental shelf waters would have had to become
severely hypoxic to account for the magnitude of the extinction, but
such a catastrophe would make it difficult to explain the very
selective pattern of the extinction.
Models of the Late Permian and Early Triassic atmospheres show a
significant but protracted decline in atmospheric oxygen levels, with
no acceleration near the P-Tr boundary and with minimum levels in the
Early Triassic that are never less than present day levels - in other
words, the decline in oxygen levels does not match the temporal
pattern of the extinction.[52]
The observed pattern of marine extinctions is also consistent with
hypercapnia (excessive levels of carbon dioxide). Carbon dioxide (CO2)
is actively toxic at above-normal concentrations, as it: reduces the
ability of respiratory pigments to oxygenate tissues; makes body
fluids more acidic, which hampers the production of carbonate hard
parts (shells, etc.) and, at high concentrations, causes narcosis
("intoxication").
In addition to these direct effects, it reduces the concentration of
carbonates in water by "crowding them out", which further increases
the difficulty of producing carbonate hard parts. Marine organisms are
more sensitive to changes in CO2 levels than terrestrial ones are,
because: CO2 is 28 times more soluble in water than oxygen is; marine
animals normally function with lower concentrations of CO2 in their
bodies than land animals, because in air-breathing animals the removal
of CO2 is impeded by the need for the gas to pass through the
membranes of their respiratory systems (lungs, tracheae, etc.). In
marine organisms relatively modest but sustained increases in CO2
concentrations hamper the synthesis of proteins, reduce fertilization
rates and produce deformities in calcareous hard parts.[52]
SNIP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian%E2%80%93Triassic_extinction_event
john fernbach
levels were about 4-6 meters higher during the Eemian period than they
are today, Catoni.
Does this sound about right to you?
Obviously this fairly large rise in sea levels didn't end all life on
the planet.
But 4 to 6 meters would be .. what? A sea level rise of 13 to 19 feet
above present? That amount of sea level rise would be pretty
horrifying for most of the world's major cities, I think -- New York,
Calcutta, Mumbai, London, Amsterdam, Rome ...etc.
According to Wikipedia, Scandinavia was an island when Eemian ocean
levels were at their peak, and there was a "vast inundation" of big
swathes of Northern Europe and Siberia.
Some of the other web sites discussing the Eemian speculate that
"horrific storms" visited North America during the last part of the
Eemian. It doesn't sound to me like it would be lots & lots of fun to
return to those conditions, actually.
Do you disagree? Do you think it would be kind of pleasant &
interesting?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eemian
On Aug 15, 6:23 pm, Catoni <caton...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Roger Coppock
How about PTEM?
Roger Coppock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene–Eocene_Thermal_Maximum
Roger Coppock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun
On Aug 15, 12:01 pm, john fernbach <fernbach1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Catoni
>"I didn't live through through the Eemian Period, Catoni.
>Did you?"
Reply:
Nope! But our ancestors did. Homo-Sapiens and
Neanderthals were both around during the Eemian warm period that was
warmer then now, with sea level about 25 feet higher then today.
Somehow, they made it through.
Funny thing is, Homo Sapien also survived the following Ice Age.
But Neanderthal didn't make it through the Ice Age. However it is
pretty well agreed on that they were wiped out by not the climate
change, but by Homo Sapien.
I wonder.... do you think that they thought Climate Change was their
fault ?????
Catoni
....>"But 4 to 6 meters would be .. what? A sea level rise of 13 to
19 feet
above present? That amount of sea level rise would be pretty
horrifying for most of the world's major cities, I think -- New York,
Calcutta, Mumbai, London, Amsterdam, Rome ...etc.
According to Wikipedia, Scandinavia was an island when Eemian ocean
levels were at their peak, and there was a "vast inundation" of big
swathes of Northern Europe and Siberia.
Some of the other web sites discussing the Eemian speculate that
"horrific storms" visited North America during the last part of the
Eemian. It doesn't sound to me like it would be lots & lots of fun
to
return to those conditions, actually.
Do you disagree? Do you think it would be kind of pleasant &
interesting? "
Reply:
It may even have been as much as 25 feet higher... And
during the Ice Age, what? 350 feet lower???
And all through Earth's history, sea levels have been rising and
dropping with climate changes... nothing new... and the rise from when
the Ice Age started to retreat was originally very very fast... much
faster then now..
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Post-Glacial_Sea_Level_png
There is evidence now that in some areas of the wrold's oceans, it
may have stopped in the past few years...
In any case... even with the very slow rise we can see in cities
like Boston, New York, the Netherlands, that land reclamation is
going on even with rise of sea level.
Boston for instance, has much more land today, reclaimed from the
sea, then it did 250 years ago.
At the rate the sea is rising, if it still is. the changes of
adjustment and adaptation would be so gradual, that a snail's speed
would be as quick as lightning in comparison.
It is not something that is going to happen right away like in "The
Day After Tomorrow" or in Gore's "Inconvenient Truth"
Anyone that believe's those films need to have their head examined.
Catoni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun
Reply:
Also from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Triassic_extinction_event#Methane_hydrate_gasification
..."One would expect a vast release of methane to cause significant
global warming, since methane is a very powerful greenhouse gas. A
"methane burp" could have released 10,000 billion tons of carbon
dioxide equivalent - twice as much as in all the fossil fuels on Earth.
[35] There is strong evidence that global temperatures increased by
about 6 °C (10.8 °F) near the equator and therefore by more at higher
latitudes: a sharp decrease in oxygen isotope ratios (18O/16O);[94]
the extinction of Glossopteris flora (Glossopteris and plants which
grew in the same areas), which needed a cold climate, and its
replacement by floras typical of lower paleolatitudes.[10][95]
However, the pattern of isotope shifts expected to result from a
massive release of methane do not match the patterns seen throughout
the early Triassic. Not only would a methane cause require the release
of five times as much methane as postulated for the PETM,[11] but it
would also have to be re-buried at an unrealistically high rate to
account for the rapid increases in the 13C/12C ratio (episodes of high
positive δ13C) throughout the early Triassic, before being released
again several times.[11]".......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Triassic_extinction_event#Methane_hydrate_gasification
See above URL for rest of article.
Catoni
>"According to Wikipedia, Scandinavia was an island when Eemian
ocean
>levels were at their peak, and there was a "vast inundation" of big
>swathes of Northern Europe and Siberia. "
>"Some of the other web sites discussing the Eemian speculate that
>"horrific storms" visited North America during the last part of the
>Eemian. It doesn't sound to me like it would be lots & lots of fun to
>return to those conditions, actually."
>"Do you disagree? Do you think it would be kind of pleasant &
>interesting? "
Reply:
Too many people when they hear or read the words
"vast inundation" have pictures in their minds of tremendous tsunami
waves rolling in from the oceans like in the movies "The Day After
Tomorrow" and "Inconvenient Truth"
In actual fact, you would grow old trying to see any change in sea
level while waiting for it to rise.
As far as "horrific storms" being speculated on some websites...
you or I could speculate all we want as well.
That's all it is.... like you said... >"Some of the other web sites
discussing the Eemian speculate that
"horrific storms" visited North America during the last part of the
Eemian."
Key word: "speculate" I wouldn't put much faith in
that..... what happened to the "More and bigger hurricanes" ???
All through the 1500's, 1600s, and 1700s', there were disasterous
hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico area. Just ask the Spanish. They
lost a hell of a lot of gold and silver loaded ships.... sometimes
most of a treasure armadas ships were sunk or otherwise destroyed due
to all the hurricanes.
Nothing new.....
Eric Gisin
55M years ago CO2 levels were already 2000+ ppm, the Holocene was 250-300 ppm.
"Roger Coppock" <rcop...@adnc.com> wrote in message
news:0780b007-a827-4268...@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
Eric Gisin
How many thousands of years would 6m take? How long do cities last?
Greenies need a collective course in arithmetic and critical thing.
"john fernbach" <fernba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:627f318b-8bc1-48f5...@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
Al Bedo
I think you mean the PETM.
That also remains speculative, but yes, the world did survive.
That's what it does.
john fernbach
-- is just an "ad hominem" attack applied to environmentalists as a
collectivity, isn't it?
It doesn't say a frigging thing about whether individual claims made
by individual environmentalists are accurate or inaccurate, plausible
or implausible.
TARZAN GOOD - TARZAN OPTIMISTIC
GREEN PEOPLE BAD - GREEN PEOPLE PESSIMISTIC.
BAD, BAD GREEN PEOPLE
That's all you're saying here, isn't it, Peter?
On Aug 17, 5:39 am, Peter Muehlbauer
<spamtrap...@AT.frankenexpress.de> wrote:
> "Eric Gisin" <gi...@uniserve.com> wrote:
> > So what? When the last ice age ended, they rose 10-20 mm/year.
> > How many thousands of years would 6m take? How long do cities last?
> > Greenies need a collective course in arithmetic and critical thing.
>
> Greenies are so preconditioned by fearmongers, that fear has etched on their
> brains. They are typical paranoiacs.
>
> They simply can't process with what they were confronted with and therefore
> enter the dummy mode (brain off, follow instructions without questions).
> Greenies are in fear of most everything they were told, and it makes no
> difference if it's true or not.
> Asteroid impact, scorched earth, anthropogenic CO2, climate disaster, floods,
> droughts, deforestation, aerosols, volcano eruptions, ozone hole,
> incinerators, nuclear power, mass extinction, endangered species, DHMO, not
> enough bicycle pads, and a thousand examples more.
>
> They really live out their fear and like hypochondriacs, always babbling about
> it, not knowing what the hell they're talking about.
> At the same time, they become more and more self-depressed and enter the nurse
> syndrome, that forces them to make all things better and at final stage they
> morph to a kind of world do-gooders.
> Green is not the term for an attitude, it is the name of a deep-seated mind
> disease.
>
> --
> Sometimes, we hear that global warming causes cooling.
> In this case, global warming causes global averageness.
> In all three cases, it is bad news.
> The three main enemies of environmentalism are warm weather,
> cool weather, and average weather.
> [Environ-mental idiocy]