A bumper sticker that I spotted
Mr Right
Global warming
higher sea levels
more fishing spots
Bring it on
Trevor Wilson
"Mr Right" <Mr.I.A...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e598372c-bcb8-4d94...@p36g2000prp.googlegroups.com...
**Except for a couple of things:
1) More CO2, means higher acidity in the oceans and fewer fish species.
2) Getting to those fishing spots may be more difficult, due to transport
problems.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Buerste
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:6vro0cF...@mid.individual.net...
If the oceans were warmer, doesn't warm water hold LESS CO2?
Trevor Wilson
"Buerste" <Bue...@att.com> wrote in message
news:Vf3ml.13032$D32....@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
**Correct. The oceans are not significantly warmer. Yet. First they become
more acidic, destroying coral reefs and many fish species. THEN they warm
and we're all screwed.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Buerste
At what PH does this happen? How much CO2 per PH #?
Trevor Wilson
"Buerste" <Bue...@att.com> wrote in message
news:4n7ml.10688$8_3....@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com...
**It doesn't happen at a specific ph. As the ph rises then we will see
sensitive species and system fail first. Coral reefs will likely be the
first casualty. Then, it will be the fish species that rely on those systems
for survival. Then, the predators of those fish and so on. All the way up
the food chain to humans.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Fran
> "Trevor Wilson" <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
>
> news:6vro0cF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:e598372c-bcb8-4d94...@p36g2000prp.googlegroups.com...
> >>A bumper sticker that I spotted
>
> >> Global warming
> >> higher sea levels
> >> more fishing spots
> >> Bring it on
>
> > **Except for a couple of things:
>
> > 1) More CO2, means higher acidity in the oceans and fewer fish species.
> > 2) Getting to those fishing spots may be more difficult, due to transport
> > problems.
>
> > --
> > Trevor Wilson
> >www.rageaudio.com.au
>
> If the oceans were warmer, doesn't warm water hold LESS CO2?
It does and that means of course that more CO2 stays in the atmosphere
and that accelerates warming of the near surface atmosphere and drives
higher ocean temperatures in a positive feedback loop. The combination
of thermal expansion and melting glaciers then drives higher sea
levels.
Increasing acidity is a separate but real problem because this attacks
the bottom of the fish food chain and everything higher up then
suffers.
The final observation one might make about the silly bumper sticker is
that while rising sealevels do nothing about the availability of
fishing spots to people on boats or at shorelines they threaten the
docks from which one would fish, so even at the level of the bumper
sticker's logic, it fails.
Fran
IQ
Sounds like one of those redneck stickers, probably carried by the same
breed that hangs a pair of balls under their pickup truck.
Q
--
Whether we can fix this problem? It would be better if nature listens to
us rather than that we listen to nature. That is the solution to climate
change! -- George Bush on Global Warming spoof by Will Ferrell.
Mr Right
>
> - Show quoted text -
If the oceans get warm enough, the fish will be cooked by the time you
land it :)
I forgot to say on the original post, the bumper sticker was on a
Toyota Prius (hybrid).
Fran
Your point being?
Fran
Mr Right
You might expect a bumper sticker like this to be on an SUV. It was
surprising to see it on a Prius.
Fran
Maybe the driver just liked the idea of saving petrol or having a
quieter car.
Fran
Mr Right
And the driver was female.
Fran
Again ... your point would be what? That normally, ignorant yobs are
male?
It's also possible that the comment was tongue-in-cheek.
Fran
Mr Right
I am a firm believer in equality between males and females.
But one of the unfortunate outcomes of equality, is that females have
now taken on many of the negative attributes of males (e.g. binge
drinking).
I am prepared to be fair, and say that half of ignorant yobs are
female.
Buerste
Wouldn't PH have to FALL for the oceans to become more acidic? How can the
oceans absorb more CO2 to a higher molarity beyond the affinity of
absorption at any specific concentration and pressure and exceed
equilibrium, especially at varied temps? Your theory involves some magic
that goes beyond any chemistry I ever knew. I'm sorry, I checked with a
chemical engineer and it just doesn't work that way.
But, since the oceans aren't a homogenous mixture at standard temp and
pressure, there is concern that under certain circumstances, surface waters
CAN be temporarily adversely affected by absorbing more H+ ions from CO2 and
become slightly less alkaline. Some calcifying organisms could be affected
but not the mass extinctions so nicely packaged for consumption by the
gullible.
In a nutshell, the science isn't as simple as some people think, there are
many, many factors involved. The doomsday scenario, although romantic in a
Kumbaya sort of way, is a lot junk science manufactured for the ignorant
masses.
Trevor Wilson
"Buerste" <Bue...@att.com> wrote in message
news:auqml.2117$Lr6....@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
**Well spotted. I claim temporary brain fart. You are, of course correct.
How can the
> oceans absorb more CO2 to a higher molarity beyond the affinity of
> absorption at any specific concentration and pressure and exceed
> equilibrium, especially at varied temps? Your theory involves some magic
> that goes beyond any chemistry I ever knew. I'm sorry, I checked with a
> chemical engineer and it just doesn't work that way.
**It _IS_ working that way. The oceans are already becoming more acidic.
>
> But, since the oceans aren't a homogenous mixture at standard temp and
> pressure, there is concern that under certain circumstances, surface
> waters CAN be temporarily adversely affected by absorbing more H+ ions
> from CO2 and become slightly less alkaline. Some calcifying organisms
> could be affected but not the mass extinctions so nicely packaged for
> consumption by the gullible.
**Prove it. Prove that the oceans will not become more acidic.
>
> In a nutshell, the science isn't as simple as some people think, there are
> many, many factors involved. The doomsday scenario, although romantic in
> a Kumbaya sort of way, is a lot junk science manufactured for the ignorant
> masses.
**And those who do not see the science and prefer to rely on junk 'science'
are morons. Excessive CO2 is not healthy for this planet.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
boonz
Maybe, but how much more and is it significant?
Do you have figures or are you just repeating sermons from whacko alarmists?
>> But, since the oceans aren't a homogenous mixture at standard temp and
>> pressure, there is concern that under certain circumstances, surface
>> waters CAN be temporarily adversely affected by absorbing more H+ ions
>> from CO2 and become slightly less alkaline. Some calcifying organisms
>> could be affected but not the mass extinctions so nicely packaged for
>> consumption by the gullible.
>
> **Prove it. Prove that the oceans will not become more acidic.
Maybe, but how much more acidic?
Don't be a headless chook and give us some facts!
>> In a nutshell, the science isn't as simple as some people think, there
>> are many, many factors involved. The doomsday scenario, although
>> romantic in a Kumbaya sort of way, is a lot junk science manufactured for
>> the ignorant masses.
>
> Excessive CO2 is not healthy for this planet.
How so?
So far it's given us the green revolution.
Warmest Regards
Bonzo
Bill Carter
> Wouldn't PH have to FALL for the oceans to become more acidic? How can the
> oceans absorb more CO2 to a higher molarity beyond the affinity of
> absorption at any specific concentration and pressure and exceed
> equilibrium, especially at varied temps? Your theory involves some magic
> that goes beyond any chemistry I ever knew. I'm sorry, I checked with a
> chemical engineer and it just doesn't work that way.
Maybe he hasn't studied ocean chemistry. Here's an explanation;
http://ioc3.unesco.org/oanet/FAQacidity.html
"Because of the increase in CO2 entering into the ocean from the
atmosphere, the saturation horizons for calcium carbonate have shifted
towards the surface by 50-200 meters compared with their positions
before the industrial revolution (10). This means that the zone occupied
by undersaturated deep waters is growing larger and the zone occupied
by the saturated surface waters is growing smaller."
> But, since the oceans aren't a homogenous mixture at standard temp and
> pressure, there is concern that under certain circumstances, surface waters
> CAN be temporarily adversely affected by absorbing more H+ ions from CO2 and
> become slightly less alkaline. Some calcifying organisms could be affected
> but not the mass extinctions so nicely packaged for consumption by the
> gullible.
I'm thinking you don't know anything about it. Cite your data.
> In a nutshell, the science isn't as simple as some people think, there are
> many, many factors involved. The doomsday scenario, although romantic in a
> Kumbaya sort of way, is a lot junk science manufactured for the ignorant
> masses.
So where's the symposium of scientists debunking these folks?
http://www.ocean-acidification.net/
"More than 150 scientists from 26 countries are calling for immediate action
by policymakers to reduce CO2 emissions sharply to avoid possible widespread
and severe damage to marine ecosystems from ocean acidification."
Trevor Wilson
"boonz" <bo...@h.com> wrote in message news:499a494d$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:6vuu83F...@mid.individual.net...
>> "Buerste" <Bue...@att.com> wrote in message
>> news:auqml.2117$Lr6....@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
>> **It _IS_ working that way. The oceans are already becoming more acidic.
>
>
> Maybe, but how much more and is it significant?
**At the present rate of CO2 increase, expect a decrease in pH of around 0.4
by 2100. It may be very significant. We don't know, since pH values have not
varied by as much and as fast in millions of years.
> Do you have figures or are you just repeating sermons from whacko
> alarmists?
**Yes and no.
>
>
>
>>> But, since the oceans aren't a homogenous mixture at standard temp and
>>> pressure, there is concern that under certain circumstances, surface
>>> waters CAN be temporarily adversely affected by absorbing more H+ ions
>>> from CO2 and become slightly less alkaline. Some calcifying organisms
>>> could be affected but not the mass extinctions so nicely packaged for
>>> consumption by the gullible.
>>
>> **Prove it. Prove that the oceans will not become more acidic.
>
>
> Maybe, but how much more acidic?
**Prove that the oceans will not become more acidic.
> Don't be a headless chook and give us some facts!
**Prove that the oceans will not become more acidic.
>
>
>>> In a nutshell, the science isn't as simple as some people think, there
>>> are many, many factors involved. The doomsday scenario, although
>>> romantic in a Kumbaya sort of way, is a lot junk science manufactured
>>> for the ignorant masses.
>>
>> Excessive CO2 is not healthy for this planet.
>
>
> How so?
**CO2 is a KNOWN GHG. More GHG = more global warming. More CO2 = more acidic
oceans.
> So far it's given us the green revolution.
**Nope. It has given us higher temperatures.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
GrassyNoel
<trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> **Nope. It has given us higher temperatures.
Yes. Because, without the greenhouse effect we would all freeze.
Trevor Wilson
"GrassyNoel" <ger...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:2fa40cc3-bfaa-4f9e...@b8g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
**And, with too much (such as what is happening now), we will face other
dangers. We need to keep CO2 levels to approximately 300ppm for the best
climate on this planet.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Buerste
<snip>
>> But, since the oceans aren't a homogenous mixture at standard temp and
>> pressure, there is concern that under certain circumstances, surface
>> waters CAN be temporarily adversely affected by absorbing more H+ ions
>> from CO2 and become slightly less alkaline. Some calcifying organisms
>> could be affected but not the mass extinctions so nicely packaged for
>> consumption by the gullible.
>
> **Prove it. Prove that the oceans will not become more acidic.
Actually, this whole paragraph is AGREEING with you!
LESS ALKALINE = MORE ACIDIC
Here's a link to help better understand the PH scale:
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html
But, the "acidification" is not linear. My whole point is that it's a
complex set of reactions and the mechanics and dynamics are NOT as
"hunky-dory-done-science" as some people try to lead others to believe.
Sorry, I have to use chemistry every single day and I forget that others
don't.
Buerste
"Bill Carter" <apl...@atown.com> wrote in message
news:x1sml.7297$jZ1....@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...
I'm glad you found a nice website to quote. You seamed to have missed my
point. If you'll notice, I have a certain agreement with reduced alkalinity
in sea water to have adverse effects on some organisms. But, there are
dynamics that your website doesn't mention because it doesn't send the right
message to those targeted and they are difficult to quantify in terms that
most people can understand.
Bill Carter
Unlike some, I don't pretend to know all about ocean chemistry so I
prefer to quote people who do. Your question "How can the oceans absorb
more CO2" and the claim that the "doomsday scenario" is "junk science"
appeared to be operative points in your post and I am glad we put all
that to rest.