Britain needs help to combat Global Cooling.
Androcles
With temperatures dropping to -20C, Britain needs to burn
more fossil fuels to combat global cooling. The situation is
grave, the snow cover is reflecting energy back into space
and increasing the cooling effect. We are doing all we can
to reduce Earth's albedo by clearing snow from our roads
and driving on them to keep them snow free, but we need to
get rid of Gordon Brown and his AGW cranks who are busy
taxing the fuel we so desperately need to save the Earth.
Al Qaeda members can help. Please come and stand in the
middle of open, snow covered fields and detonate yourselves
to move the snow. We'll supply the fertiliser and diesel fuel.
Thank you.
enigma
You need help to comprehend the difference between climate and
weather. They are not the same.
Nor is Britain the globe.
Sam Wormley
His posting record clearly demonstrates that Androcles is just
an attention seeking abuser of USENET. But I will admit he does
not appear to understand the difference between weather and
climate!
Androcles
"enigma" <enigm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a07d2f41-ec21-4a76...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
==============================================
You need to lighten up and find out what a joke is, you dumb bastard.
Androcles
"Sam Wormley" <swor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ap-dnRD24_smUNvW...@mchsi.com...
> On 1/8/10 12:09 AM, enigma wrote:
>> On Jan 7, 8:23 pm, "Androcles"<Headmas...@Hogwarts.physics_r> wrote:
>>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article6980077.ece
>>>
>>> With temperatures dropping to -20C, Britain needs to burn
>>> more fossil fuels to combat global cooling. The situation is
>>> grave, the snow cover is reflecting energy back into space
>>> and increasing the cooling effect. We are doing all we can
>>> to reduce Earth's albedo by clearing snow from our roads
>>> and driving on them to keep them snow free, but we need to
>>> get rid of Gordon Brown and his AGW cranks who are busy
>>> taxing the fuel we so desperately need to save the Earth.
>>> Al Qaeda members can help. Please come and stand in the
>>> middle of open, snow covered fields and detonate yourselves
>>> to move the snow. We'll supply the fertiliser and diesel fuel.
>>> Thank you.
>>
>> You need help to comprehend the difference between climate and
>> weather. They are not the same.
>> Nor is Britain the globe.
>>
>
Androcles stumps the worm again!
Peter Webb
"enigma" <enigm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a07d2f41-ec21-4a76...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
_____________________________
Yeah, warm temperatures are caused by climate, but cold temperatures are
caused by weather.
Jerry
Actually, there have been studies that suggest that continued
global warming could result in result in a slowdown or shutdown
of the thermohaline circulation aka the Great Ocean Conveyor.
This suggestion is quite controversial. If true, however, a
somewhat counterintuitive effect of global warming would be
-cooling- of areas warmed by the North Atlantic Current.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutdown_of_thermohaline_circulation
Androcles is nuts, but localized climate changes are not the
same as global climate changes.
Jerry
Roving rabbit
Besides the thermohaline component there is a wind driven component, and
the latter is already sufficient to keep the circulation in motion.
Q
>
> Androcles is nuts, but localized climate changes are not the
> same as global climate changes.
>
> Jerry
>
>
--
The difference between us and the Titanic is the band.
Jerry
Correct.
> and
> the latter is already sufficient to keep the circulation in motion.
As I stated, the suggestion is rather controversial. But the
possibility is of sufficient importance that continued studies
need to be made, and continued efforts put into slowing down the
contributors to global warming. The Earth has undergone major
climate changes in the past, but generally on a time scale of
hundreds or thousands of years. Rapid climate change is disruptive.
An event such as the shutdown of the thermohaline circulation
-could- result in sudden climate change over a single season.
Jerry
Androcles
"Roving rabbit" <rab...@dot.com> wrote in message
news:4b46e349$0$22917$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Even schoolchildren know there is no temperature change in a tumbler
of ice water until the ice is all gone. With all of Antarctica in permanent
sunlight for 3 more months and the Earth at its closest approach to the
Sun, the Earth's whiteness is at a maximum. When all the ice melts, then
you'll see a global change in temperature. Until then it will remain stable.
Jeery is psychotic, red non-existent localized thermohaline herrings are
not the same as non-existent global temperature changes. I invite Jeery
to stand in a field and do an Al Qaeda for us.
Androcles
"Jerry" <Cephalobu...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1830a964-6537-4e47...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Correct.
Jerry
Jeery is psychotic, the world wide legend of a global flood
is based on fact. The Northern ice cap that reached as far
south as Youngstown, Ohio, and London, melted fast enough
to make mammoth extinct as homo veni vidi vici moved
north and the ice edge retreated. Glacial deposits of morraine
are the evidence of the extent and skin, hair and bones of
mammoth have been carbon dated provide the evidence
of the extinction. Sea levels rising at a foot a year is 70 feet in
a lifetime and FAST. That's a disruptive climate change.
It is also a lot of FRESH water that did not shut down the
circulation but filled the great lakes.
Cold water is carried southwest by the coriolis effect, where
it is heated and returns to Britain as the Gulf Stream.
Cwatters
"Androcles" <Headm...@Hogwarts.physics_r> wrote in message
news:cry1n.10302$t15...@newsfe11.ams2...
I recommend starting with the airports so we can all fly off to Bulgaria...
:-)
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=111730
Bulgaria Sees Record-High Temperatures
January 7, 2010, Thursday
Temperature records were recorded in Southern Bulgaria and the capital Sofia
on Thursday, marking the second period of unusually warm weather since the
new year set in.
Thermometers soared to 14 centigrade in the capital, beating by two
centigrades the previous record, set in 1963. In the southern towns of
Blagoevgrad and Kardzhali and the central parts near Sliven and Sandanski,
the mercury also zoomed up to record highs, ranging from 14 to 16,7
centigrade.
Androcles
"Cwatters" <colin.wat...@TurnersOakNOSPAM.plus.com> wrote in message
news:t-ednWSps7O9ndrW...@brightview.co.uk...
to Britain upon joining the EU (bringing their prayer mats with them,
of course). It used to be Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter-day
Saints that wanted to adopt the missionary role but this latest
lot seem to prefer doggy fashion, arse in the air and face Mecca.
I don't suppose anyone would mind if they brought some sunshine
with them.
I M @ good guy
wrote:
You need a brain, things are so bad in Britain the
industrial users had to reduce gas use so that houses
would have enough gas, if gas line pressure were to
fall below a certain pressure, safety valves would
close and it might take a week to turn off every
meter, then turn on the distribution, and go in
every building to make sure burners with no
safety valve is on, turn on the meter, light the
pilots, and make sure everything is safe, houses
blow up if all this is not done, and if it happened
over a big city area, there would not be enough
men to do the job in even a week.
It really takes a fruitcake to hype Global
Warming when so many people are in danger
of dying because of the cold.
I M @ good guy
wrote:
Things are so serious, it really doesn't matter,
people are dying because of the cold, and AGW nuts
can't keep quiet until the crisis is over.
I M @ good guy
The current extended frigid spell is not only
affecting western Europe, it is almost the entire
Northern Hemisphere that is in crisis mode with
people dying because of the weather, climate,
or any other name the AGW nutcases call it.
Autymn D. C.
> It really takes a fruitcake to hype Global
> Warming when so many people are in danger
> of dying because of the cold.
Cretin who can't recken, where does cold come /from/?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/509559a21a7a6138/84730c80a887d59f
columbiaaccidentinvestigation
so serious, it really doesn't matter,
people are dying because of the cold, and AGW nuts can't keep quiet
until the crisis is over"
so does that mean nuts like you will "keep quiet" during summer time,
or nuts like you promote programs like LIHEAP here in the U.S.?
Because if nuts like you write about people dying because of the cold,
and you dont discuss programs for those less fortunate, than maybe you
should just "keep quiet" in the cold and when its warm.
I M @ good guy
Whereever it is, please send it back, it is beginning
to dash hopes for a climate like Hawaii.
Tom P
He does at least comprehend the ice albedo positive feedback concept.
Tom P
Europe .... face it, the whole thing is wind driven. If the wind blows
from A to B, then wind has to blow from C to A to replace it.
Androcles
"Tom P" <wero...@freent.dd> wrote in message
news:7qpvi4...@mid.individual.net...
every system, be it positive or negative, isn't an engineer.
Engineers also have a sense of ironic humour. Not every one of
us has to write a grin [:-)] to be understood. Thank you, Tom.
Benj
> You need help to comprehend the difference between climate and
> weather. They are not the same.
> Nor is Britain the globe.
Wait a minute. Back when weather was warmer than climate you all told
us that it was the indicator that climate was changing from AGW. But
now when weather is colder than climate that rule no longer applies.
So clearly you are simply talking propaganda and not science. Shill.
Benj
> [...]
> Androcles stumps the worm again!
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, Andro. The Worm-bot
can't even run his spell-checker most of the time. Stumping the bot is
no big deal.
I M @ good guy
Androcles
"Benj" <bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:63ef0e4d-c972-4ede...@21g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
=================================================
Yeah, but according to the Worm-dork, snipping and not responding is
"stumping". So although it is no great achievement, one wins many
a minor point that way. One can add some irrelevant pithy comment
by way of a signature if one wishes.
JohnM
> "Benj" <bjac...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
It is as most of us suspected. Denialism has absolutely zippo to do
with science - it's all about imaginary point scoring. It does help to
explain why these twerps invariably get it wrong when they try to
manufacture scientific argument.
JohnM
> "enigma" <enigma_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
You need to smarten up and find out what the difference is between
joke and irony, you silly twerp.
JohnM
There is no suggestion that this is the reason for the current
weather. It's a weather pattern that develops every so often and seems
to have no origin in CC.There is a description by David Adam in
guardian.co.uk, Monday 4 January 2010.
It isn't actually that bad in England - in the 1972/3 winter I
remember seeing large quantities of sea ice in the English channel.
> Androcles is nuts,
No. He's actually a twerp, but the difference is quite subtle.
> but localized climate changes are not the
> same as global climate changes.
The weather in S. Greenland is very warm just now - it's 283 K
Androcles
"JohnM" <john_howa...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1501ddcf-d85a-4584...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
=================================================
But of course.
One favourite ploy of the twerp is to say
"A {object/expression} is not a {different object/expression} "
as in
"A Lorentz contraction is not an Einstein expansion!"
or
"A sausage is not a dog's breakfast!"
as if the proposer had somehow implied that it was.
The dog may conclude otherwise.
Androcles
=============================================
Please tell me the value of x in the expression
x = joke-irony
and then I'll know the difference.
"It's all about imaginary point scoring. " - Morgan the fuckwit.
JohnM
> "JohnM" <john_howard_mor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
Good to hear it from from the horse's mouth.
Androcles
======================================
Does your writing stutter get worse from from from the horse's arse?
It's all about imaginary point scoring - and you are losing, fuckwit.
Jerry
> "JohnM" <john_howard_mor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> You need to smarten up and find out what the difference is between
>> joke and irony, you silly twerp.
>
> Please tell me the value of x in the expression
> x = joke-irony
> and then I'll know the difference.
>
x = 42
Androcles
=========================================
You need to smart-arse down and find out what the sum is between
Tom and Jeery, you silly schizophrenic.
John M.
So long as I have your reassurance that you know sod all about climate
change, and can only make futile comments about typos, I'm happy to
award you as many points as you can push up your rectum.
John M.
Your joke scores 13 - 2i on the Reamur-Adams scale so you can
calculate the irony yourself.
Henry Wilson DSc
wrote:
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article6980077.ece
>
>With temperatures dropping to -20C, Britain needs to burn
>more fossil fuels to combat global cooling. The situation is
>grave, the snow cover is reflecting energy back into space
>and increasing the cooling effect. We are doing all we can
>to reduce Earth's albedo by clearing snow from our roads
>and driving on them to keep them snow free, but we need to
>get rid of Gordon Brown and his AGW cranks who are busy
>taxing the fuel we so desperately need to save the Earth.
You can reduce the albedo by politely asking all your dark skinned residents to
lie face down in the snow, whilst naked.
>Al Qaeda members can help. Please come and stand in the
>middle of open, snow covered fields and detonate yourselves
>to move the snow. We'll supply the fertiliser and diesel fuel.
>Thank you.
>
Henry Wilson...
Save the Planet....support my ONE-AND-A-HALF CHILD policy.
www.scisite.info/solution.html
Androcles
"Henry Wilson DSc" <..@..> wrote in message
news:fi0mk5h1r19glhdef...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 04:23:09 -0000, "Androcles"
> <Headm...@Hogwarts.physics_r>
> wrote:
>
>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article6980077.ece
>>
>>With temperatures dropping to -20C, Britain needs to burn
>>more fossil fuels to combat global cooling. The situation is
>>grave, the snow cover is reflecting energy back into space
>>and increasing the cooling effect. We are doing all we can
>>to reduce Earth's albedo by clearing snow from our roads
>>and driving on them to keep them snow free, but we need to
>>get rid of Gordon Brown and his AGW cranks who are busy
>>taxing the fuel we so desperately need to save the Earth.
>
> You can reduce the albedo by politely asking all your dark skinned
> residents to
> lie face down in the snow, whilst naked.
On their backs face-up will be ok, as long as the snow covers them.
They can hold their palms and the soles of their feet up.
They were standing on all fours when Gawd sprayed 'em,
He can finish the job and perhaps they'll go home again.
Oh wait... I almost forgot you are upside down, so it would be
face-down from your non-inertial frame of reference. That must be
why you don't get snow in Oz, it's falling the wrong way for you.
I M @ good guy
This is getting more goofy all the time,
everybody is an activist, no need to work
when you can make money with your mouth.
Henry Wilson DSc
wrote:
>
>"Henry Wilson DSc" <..@..> wrote in message
>news:fi0mk5h1r19glhdef...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 04:23:09 -0000, "Androcles"
>> <Headm...@Hogwarts.physics_r>
>> wrote:
>>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article6980077.ece
>>>
>>>With temperatures dropping to -20C, Britain needs to burn
>>>more fossil fuels to combat global cooling. The situation is
>>>grave, the snow cover is reflecting energy back into space
>>>and increasing the cooling effect. We are doing all we can
>>>to reduce Earth's albedo by clearing snow from our roads
>>>and driving on them to keep them snow free, but we need to
>>>get rid of Gordon Brown and his AGW cranks who are busy
>>>taxing the fuel we so desperately need to save the Earth.
>>
>> You can reduce the albedo by politely asking all your dark skinned
>> residents to
>> lie face down in the snow, whilst naked.
>
>On their backs face-up will be ok, as long as the snow covers them.
>They can hold their palms and the soles of their feet up.
>They were standing on all fours when Gawd sprayed 'em,
>He can finish the job and perhaps they'll go home again.
>Oh wait... I almost forgot you are upside down, so it would be
>face-down from your non-inertial frame of reference. That must be
>why you don't get snow in Oz, it's falling the wrong way for you.
Melbourne (32.3C) and other part of OZ just had the hottest nightly minima on
record. 2.3C above the previous record. About half the country is in severe
drought, the other half in flood. Send all your snow over here please.
Androcles
"I M @ good guy" <I...@good.guy> wrote in message
news:fo4nk5l9orpgiamqe...@4ax.com...
do best, and I'll gladly pay them �10 an acre.
I pay by results, they can come and collect their wages as soon
as they've detonated a field of snow. I've got lots of fields that
need snow clearing, much of it on Salisbury Plain. The army
do their best practicing with tanks and artillery but they do a
lousy job on the snow, they don't have the courage to blow
themselves up as well. I'd do it myself, but I'm retired.
Only genuine licensed suicide bombers need apply.
Licenses are available, �20 each.
The management is not responsible for death or injury.
Androcles
"Henry Wilson DSc" <..@..> wrote in message
Ok, I will as soon as I can recruit enough Al Qaeda suicide bombers
to blow it up.
Mike
wrote:
> You need a brain, things are so bad in Britain the
>industrial users had to reduce gas use so that houses
>would have enough gas, if gas line pressure were to
>fall below a certain pressure, safety valves would
>close and it might take a week to turn off every
>meter, then turn on the distribution, and go in
>every building to make sure burners with no
>safety valve is on, turn on the meter, light the
>pilots, and make sure everything is safe, houses
>blow up if all this is not done, and if it happened
>over a big city area, there would not be enough
>men to do the job in even a week.
The complete failure of the gas system, even within a city is of such
low probability as to be a non-credible event. Systems fail safe and
will, under all credible circumstances maintain supply to domestic and
commercial consumers.
The high volume gas users signed up in advance, and with full sight of
contracts that offered substantially lower prices in exchange for an
interruptible supply, just such an arrangement has existed for many
years. Certainly in the case of electricity supplies it has existed
for half a century.
What is worrying is that some electricity generating stations are also
on interrupt able contracts.
--
JohnM
Mike
>Melbourne (32.3C) and other part of OZ just had the hottest nightly minima on
>record. 2.3C above the previous record. About half the country is in severe
>drought, the other half in flood. Send all your snow over here please.
We've already sent all our heat. I blame gravity.
--
Martin Brown
> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 7, 8:23 pm, "Androcles" <Headmas...@Hogwarts.physics_r> wrote:
>>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/weather/article6980077.ece
>>>
>>> With temperatures dropping to -20C, Britain needs to burn
>>> more fossil fuels to combat global cooling. The situation is
>>> grave, the snow cover is reflecting energy back into space
>>> and increasing the cooling effect. We are doing all we can
>>> to reduce Earth's albedo by clearing snow from our roads
>>> and driving on them to keep them snow free, but we need to
>>> get rid of Gordon Brown and his AGW cranks who are busy
>>> taxing the fuel we so desperately need to save the Earth.
>>> Al Qaeda members can help. Please come and stand in the
>>> middle of open, snow covered fields and detonate yourselves
>>> to move the snow. We'll supply the fertiliser and diesel fuel.
>>> Thank you.
>> You need help to comprehend the difference between climate and
>> weather. They are not the same.
>> Nor is Britain the globe.
>
>
> You need a brain, things are so bad in Britain the
> industrial users had to reduce gas use so that houses
> would have enough gas, if gas line pressure were to
> fall below a certain pressure, safety valves would
> close and it might take a week to turn off every
> meter, then turn on the distribution, and go in
> every building to make sure burners with no
> safety valve is on, turn on the meter, light the
> pilots, and make sure everything is safe, houses
> blow up if all this is not done, and if it happened
> over a big city area, there would not be enough
> men to do the job in even a week.
The bulk industrial users on *INTERRUPTABLE* contracts were asked to be
ready to drop off supply and some were dropped off for a while - and
that is exactly why they pay so much less for their gas. They are the
load balancing when things get sticky. UK has insanely low gas reserves
in storage and relies on pipelines from the North Sea and neighbours.
It was a bit of a shock for some hospitals whose beancounters had signed
up to interruptable gas supply contracts to penny pinch without ever
thinking about the consequences of being dropped off supply. It last
happened in March 2006 - UK has essentially no contingency supply of
stored gas and if it is cold over most of Northern Europe the French and
German suppliers look after their home market first and the spot price
per therm goes through the roof. It happens fairly often in winter.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=407621&in_page_id=2
AFAIK no hospitals were dropped off supply in 2006 and I think it would
have made the news if any were dropped off this time.
Bizarrely the lack of adequate UK storage for gas creates weird price
excursions both high and low. When the new Langeled pipeline was opened
in October 2006 the price per therm spiked *negative* for a while - they
were *paying* bulk industrial users to take it off their hands!!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5402370.stm?ls
You can criticise the UK government for crass incompetence at not
building some extra gas storage when they knew that the North Sea gas
bonanza was ending, but they didn't and so we have wild supply and
demand excursions. The weather incidentally has thawed now.
Councils penny pinching by not buying enough stocks of winter rock salt
didn't help the situation. Highways Agency responsible for the major
routes had just about enough to stretch - although they stopped gritting
the hard shoulder on motorways towards the end to save salt.
There is s similar load balancing agreement for electricity which very
obviously cannot be stored apart from small amounts in pumped storage
reservoirs and the remainder goes to arc furnaces and electrolysis. And
those companies are on very short notice of being dropped off supply and
in return get a very favourable price.
Regards,
Martin Brown
I M @ good guy
I know the probability is low, but in the 1970s
I lived 10 miles from a town of 25,000 where it
happened, luckily the weather was above freezing.
The gas companies know about the problems
if pressure goes too low, which is the main reason
industry has to cut back.
Providing most supplies from long distance
pipelines is a problem in itself for areas that do
not have local storage, pressure tanks don't work
well because the bigger they are, the less pressure
they can hold.
The more extended the cold snap is, the
more compounded the problem gets, sometimes
water mains freeze and break gas mains.
But in the US, the modern furnaces are being
installed with plastic vents and an extra heat
exchanger and vent fan, so without electricity,
there is no heat anyway.
I would never install that kind of furnace,
last year I was without grid power twice for
an extended period, I was one of the few
lucky ones, my gas heaters and kitchen
stove work without electric.
I M @ good guy
Either you have a software problem or a brain
problem, this is the 5th message with no new text,
all the more reason to delete without downloading
the text.
I M @ good guy
I feel confident industry engineers have some
innovative ways to store natural gas, in the inland US
there are lots of huge underground caverns.
I would be leery of a tank bigger than 10 feet
in diameter with more than 800 PSI, which is about
what gas pipelines carry.
In 1989 in Austin across the street from where
I lived, a guy chained his lawn mower to a big
apartment complex pressure reduction valve
3 inch regulator line, and forgot to remove the
chain when he started to mow.
I moved pretty fast when I saw what was
causing the noise, my apartment was about
40 feet away across the street.
The guy nonchalantly walked to his truck
and got a wrench and shut it off, a school bus
driver made a good decision when he stopped
before reaching the visible gas crossing the
street.
I am paranoid now about gas lines under
the house, I had one that had water dripping
on it rust through, luckily when I turned the
meter on and went in the bathroom I smelled
gas right away and went back out and turned
the meter off.
My new Chamberlain direct vent wall heater
with wall thermostat has a short gas line coming
through the wall from outside, and needs no
electricity.
The only improvement it has over the
original is the use of a double wall vent pipe
using outside air instead of room air for the
flame.
JohnM
Mike
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>You can criticise the UK government for crass incompetence at not
>building some extra gas storage when they knew that the North Sea gas
>bonanza was ending, but they didn't and so we have wild supply and
>demand excursions.
It's not the governments responsibility in a fully deregulated energy
market to do *anything*. The regulator might influence the market to
some extent, but long term planning went completely out the window
around two decades ago when pure capitalism was given free reign to do
anything it wished. Hence balancing pipelines that do nothing but
export, gas fired power stations that are built and then shut in less
than five years. That is why we are in the bloody mess we are now.
Gas storage, and new build generation (other than gas) will only be
built when 'signals' for investment exist, and there is a guaranteed
return on capital. Unfortunately the timescales for return on
investment mean *nothing* gets built if it can't repay capital over
five years, that excludes the vast majority of potential projects.
If it is subsidised to the hilt (wind generation) to create an
artificial market then it gets built regardless of benefit and
regardless of the impact on system stability.
IF we had an energy policy, and still had masses of coal fired
generation, and had been building new clean coal fired generation we'd
have energy security within our own borders, there are known coal
reserves at current rate of consumption for around 250-300 years. We
could at the same time been building a new generation of nukes to
replace those built in the 60's and 70's, we could have been rolling
out tidal barriers in at least a couple of locations and offshore wind
could have contributed significantly in a measured approach.
Most if not all of this investment could have been designed engineered
and built by the Brits, for the Brits and some of those sectors could
have gained us valuable export earnings in the manufacturing sector,
something that is very sadly lacking since the 1970's. Meanwhile we
could continue to burn the North Sea gas in our homes for another 75
years, where it is the perfect fuel, burnt with ease at 90+%
efficiency.
--
Androcles
"Mike" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:8pqpk5puciqv5g93h...@4ax.com...
I M @ good guy
?
I M @ good guy
>Brain frozen :-)
>
>BTW, we really have a newsfeed problem since weeks here in Europe.
>Each 10th or 20th posting did not arrive at our newsservers.
>Even Google hasn't stored them, when searching by the MessageID.
>ATM I can only see the pre-poster from a reply's quoting.
>Lots of threads start with "Re: ..." here, missing the original message.
>
>E.g.
>
>200 news1.nefonline.de InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.3.5 ready (posting ok).
>: > GROUP alt.global-warming
>211 28433 300809 356141 alt.global-warming
>: > ARTICLE <4b4b795e$0$22940$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>
>430 No such article
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups/search?as_umsgid=4b4b795e%240%2422940%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl&hl=de
>No result
>
>So sorry, if I don't answer to your/some postings.
>It' simply because I didn't get them.
That is common with a lot of power outages,
or even hard drive crashes on some small servers
that pass messages on.
There must be a lot of big hard drive crashes,
used Terrabyte drives are selling for less than $60.
JohnM
wrote:
Not the politicians. They are always totally irresponsible.
Roving rabbit
>
> BTW, we really have a newsfeed problem since weeks here in Europe.
> Each 10th or 20th posting did not arrive at our newsservers.
> Even Google hasn't stored them, when searching by the MessageID.
> ATM I can only see the pre-poster from a reply's quoting.
> Lots of threads start with "Re: ..." here, missing the original message.
>
> E.g.
>
> 200 news1.nefonline.de InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.3.5 ready (posting ok).
> : > GROUP alt.global-warming
> 211 28433 300809 356141 alt.global-warming
> : > ARTICLE <4b4b795e$0$22940$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>
> 430 No such article
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?as_umsgid=4b4b795e%240%2422940%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl&hl=de
> No result
>
> So sorry, if I don't answer to your/some postings.
> It' simply because I didn't get them.
And who cares what you receive?
Q
--
The difference between us and the Titanic is the band.
Androcles
"JohnM" <john_howa...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2f7636df-adc8-4851...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
=========================================
NIMBYs
JohnM
> "JohnM" <john_howard_mor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
Worse than that :-(
Androcles
"Peter Muehlbauer" <spamt...@AT.frankenexpress.de> wrote in message
news:b2uqk5ds4l7qbs5qa...@nntp.frankenexpress.de...
> However I can't imagine that (mostly universities) don't have UPS-aided
> servers, or at least emergency power aggregates.
> The NNTP servers are also consolidated as radial network, not a
> point-to-point
> network. If one or two lines fail, messages could be sent through another
> route. NNTP servers also have the ability to synchronize their piles with
> IHAVE and SENDME requests. A loss of messages seems to be unlikely.
>
> But maybe they were delivered in addition some day.
>
>> There must be a lot of big hard drive crashes,
>> used Terrabyte drives are selling for less than $60.
>
> than 70 Euros at the moment.
> Can you remember the first very expensive 5 1/4" 10MB hard drives of the
> 80s
> and their dimensions?
> Imagine, you would need 100,000,000 of them today to have the same storage
> capability compared to a modern pocket-size 1TB hard drive.
> Incredible.
> :-)
1970's 80 MByte: http://tinyurl.com/y9ajbum
Androcles
Worse than that :-(
============================================
GreenWar shitheads are not campaigning to close down Kingsnorth
power station while messing about in boats on the Medway at the moment,
that's a summertime activity.
Right now they are tucked up in their cosy houses in front of the TV,
enjoying the warmth it provides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsnorth_power_station#Greenpeace_-_June_2009
Androcles
> At that time you were capable of replacing and re-adjusting the drive
> heads
> manually with a screw driver.
>
> I remember my 3rd computer, after a self-made single-card computer with
> 6-digits hex LED display and hex input (LOL!)
>
> http://www.hansotten.com/news/77_1_b.jpg
>
> and 2 OHIO Scientific boards,
>
> http://oldcomputers.net/pics/osi-600.jpg
>
> was a Sharp MZ-80 B with a modern 4 MHz Z80 CPU
>
> http://www.inetmie.or.jp/~okm/mz80b.JPG
>
> with an optional accessory floppy drive, that costed about US$ 250 ...
> unaffordable for a private person at those times.
>
> :-)
Mine was a NASCOM with audio cassette storage and TV display.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/104571311_9d41b0ddb7.jpg
Too funny!
Androcles
> That also was the big time of the AIM or KIM or Tandy TRZ-80.
>
Not many people writing machine code anymore.
What is weird is writing it in hexadecimal, it was easier to understand in
octal.
The load commands 21H and 31H in binary are 00100001 and 00110001
which in octal are 041 and 061
That's 0 for load; 4 or 6 for the register to be loaded, 1 for 16 bits that
follow.
LD SP, 0C80
0 4 1 -------
LD HL, 0
0 6, 1 -------
In hexadecimal the load command is disguised.
I had a copy of a chess game that was designed for ROM and to prevent
a copy running the code was written to be self-modifying. If it was in ROM
it couldn't be modified, but in RAM it could be and it died.
I M @ good guy
<spamt...@AT.frankenexpress.de> wrote:
>Could be an explanation, yes.
>However I can't imagine that (mostly universities) don't have UPS-aided
>servers, or at least emergency power aggregates.
>The NNTP servers are also consolidated as radial network, not a point-to-point
>network. If one or two lines fail, messages could be sent through another
>route. NNTP servers also have the ability to synchronize their piles with
>IHAVE and SENDME requests. A loss of messages seems to be unlikely.
>
>But maybe they were delivered in addition some day.
>
>> There must be a lot of big hard drive crashes,
>> used Terrabyte drives are selling for less than $60.
>
>Our computer store offers new 1TB SATA 7200rpm 24/7 drives for less
>than 70 Euros at the moment.
>Can you remember the first very expensive 5 1/4" 10MB hard drives of the 80s
>and their dimensions?
The first hard drives were 5 MB, full height 5.25 inch,
the current CD rom drives are half-height. The first IBM PC
didn't have a hard drive, it had 320 Kilobyte, 8 sector floppies,
360 KB 9 sector floppies came later, and then the second
model (I can't think of the name right now, but I bought
a used one in 1986 without the hard drive and found a
10 meg, half height hard drive in a computer surplus store.
The Texas Instruments Professional Computer came
out a year later than the IBM PC, but was configured for
4 floppies, the hard drives were hard coded to be E: and F:
only, and had 768 K memory with the expansion board,
I still have 4 of these.
I still have several 5 Meg full height hard drives,
and a real monster 40 meg I bought from a "Bulletin
Board" Sysop partitioned and formatted as two 20 meg
hard drives because the latest MSDOS only supported
30 megs.
In 1985 I bought some components from a
Convergent Technologies "mini-Frame", including
a 50 meg hard drive, I didn't have a computer at
the time that it would fit, and sold it to a second
hand computer store who sold it formatted as
a single 30 meg because that was the maximum
MSDOS supported.
>Imagine, you would need 100,000,000 of them today to have the same storage
>capability compared to a modern pocket-size 1TB hard drive.
>Incredible.
> :-)
Yes, but it took a long time to break the
100 meg barrier, in about 1995 I bought a
120 Meg drive from Circuit City after I convinced
them it was outdated by the first gigabyte drives,
and in 1997 I bought three identical 3 Gig drives,
but MSDOS would only support 2 gigs, so there
was a gig never formatted. (dates may be off)
I still have all the hard drives I used, I
never erase them, I may have about 50, but
some 1.7 gig and 1.2 gig I have I have never
used.
I prefer Firewire external boxes and
built-in mobile racks so I can run any
operating system.
In 1980 a common "big mainframe"
in a small insurance company had one meg
of magnetic core memory and cake plate
hard drives the size of washing machines.
With Firewire, up to 25 drives are
possible, so I would prefer a number of
smaller drives because if a big drive goes
bad, the amount of work lost is not
acceptable.
I M @ good guy
>I like those oldtimers.
>That also was the big time of the AIM or KIM or Tandy TRZ-80.
TRS-80, for Tandy Radio Shack. It had a
ROM operating system that had sub-routines that
could be called from the floppy DOS that was
very much like the first MSDOS.
And the 8080A, Z80, 8088s in the TIPC
and IBMPC preceded the 8086 family of CPU
instruction sets, MSDOS gained momentum
by converting 8080A code to 8086 code.
My youngest son bought one in 1978, and in
1985 I bought two after market expansion boxes
and got one working just by soldering one wire,
that gave me two 160 Kilobyte floppies, I knew
the 8080A instruction set (the Z-80 was identical
with a few more instructions) by heart, allowing
manual machine code programming of sub-routines.
And he went on to helping set up the computer
at Star Wars "Skywalker Ranch" that was used to make
the last two or three movies, it had a terrabyte of
storage, but not all on one drive, that was in 2001
(I think).
I M @ good guy
<Headm...@Hogwarts.physics_r> wrote:
EDB0
Mike
<Headm...@Hogwarts.physics_r> wrote:
>So who is responsible?
Unfortunately no one, there is no financial incentive for *anyone* to
make any investment to keep the lights on and maintain a secure gas
supply, nor a secure water supply nor provide sewage disposal.
If all the companies concerned decided to sabotage or remove all their
assets from service, pack up their bags of cash, and head off back to
Spain or Germany or France where the parent companies for the majority
of these businesses are, then there is nothing we as a country could
do about it...although I would suspect that the nuclear waste would be
left behind by 'British Energy' - yet another division of EdF.
The ultimate responsibility however remains with the shit for brains
evil twisted bitch Margaret Thatcher. The day she dies there will be
that many people dancing for joy there will be a bloody earthquake.
--
Androcles
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:49:07 -0000, "Androcles"
> <Headm...@Hogwarts.physics_r> wrote:
>
>>So who is responsible?
Must have been snipping Mike of the original spam fame.
Bruce Richmond
> >> >430 No such article
>
> >> >http://groups.google.com/groups/search?as_umsgid=4b4b795e%240%2422940...
Actually the first IBM floppies were 160 KB single sided. Before that
there were 8" floppies that really were pretty floppy. I still have a
few of them around. I also have a 1981 IBM PC with two full height
360 KB floppy drives. The mother board had 16k of memory which had
been expanded to 64k on the MB. There were two expansion cards to
make room for a full 640k. That sucker threw some heat!
That same computer had a neat thing called a Quadlink card. It was an
Apple II computer with its own memory on a card. It shared the
monitor, speaker, keyboard and floppy drives. You would boot the IBM
up on a floppy, there was no hard drive when I got it, then flip the
boot disk over and press Ctrl-Alt-A to boot the Apple. To get back to
the IBM you pressed Ctrl-Alt-I. The processor in the background could
continue to run a program once started. There was a program that
allowed you to have an IBM floppy in one drive and an Apple floppy in
the other and transfer files back and forth.
I also had a Commodore computers. My first was a VIC 20 with audio
cassette storage and later an external floppy drive. Actually paid
more for the floppy drive than the computer. The drive was controlled
by a 6502 chip which was the same as the CPU in the VIC and Apple.
You could even write a program to the ram in the drive and have it run
independent from the computer. With two drives daisy chained to the
computer you could have the drives transfer files back and forth while
the computer did other work. Later I got a 128D and wrote a program
so that the floppy drives could read and write IBM and Apple
floppies. Also had a program called Media Mate that ran on an IBM and
allowed the drives to read and write over a dozen other formats
(Kaypro, Ozborn, etc).
Androcles provided a link to a pic of an early hard drive. First one
I saw was similar, but connected to an IBM 360 in the 1960's it held
either 1 or 10 meg (yeah, it's a bit hazzy :) When you closed the
cover you could hear it draw all the air out as it spun the disc pack
up to speed. In operation the whold drive jumped around on its shock
mounts as the read/write heads moved in and out. For mass storage
tape was used. For fast storage there were drum drives. Each track
on the drum had its own read/write head.
> acceptable.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I M @ good guy
The Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I had an
expansion box that supported 5.25 inch floppies,
but the TRS-80 Model II had 8 inch floppies, the
Model III was a table-top console with built-in
monitor and drives.
I have a 1982 "DOT" portable with two 3.5 inch
drives, a thermal printer, and a 6 x 10 inch monitor
built-in, were your 160k drives 5.25 or 3.5 inch?
>I also have a 1981 IBM PC with two full height
>360 KB floppy drives. The mother board had 16k of memory which had
>been expanded to 64k on the MB. There were two expansion cards to
>make room for a full 640k. That sucker threw some heat!
But even with 640k installed, only 512k could
be accessed with the operating system, I don't know
if the upper 128k could be used for sub-routines
with direct addressing.
I have a big expansion card filled with 64k chips,
64 x 1, that is, but the TIPCs have 768k, and the
Victor 9000 from the same era had 896k and a
drive that had a different number of sectors as
the head moved.
>That same computer had a neat thing called a Quadlink card. It was an
>Apple II computer with its own memory on a card. It shared the
>monitor, speaker, keyboard and floppy drives. You would boot the IBM
>up on a floppy, there was no hard drive when I got it, then flip the
>boot disk over and press Ctrl-Alt-A to boot the Apple. To get back to
>the IBM you pressed Ctrl-Alt-I. The processor in the background could
>continue to run a program once started. There was a program that
>allowed you to have an IBM floppy in one drive and an Apple floppy in
>the other and transfer files back and forth.
That's a new one on me, but I didn't get an
IBM until much later.
>I also had a Commodore computers. My first was a VIC 20 with audio
>cassette storage and later an external floppy drive. Actually paid
>more for the floppy drive than the computer. The drive was controlled
>by a 6502 chip which was the same as the CPU in the VIC and Apple.
>You could even write a program to the ram in the drive and have it run
>independent from the computer. With two drives daisy chained to the
>computer you could have the drives transfer files back and forth while
>the computer did other work. Later I got a 128D and wrote a program
>so that the floppy drives could read and write IBM and Apple
>floppies. Also had a program called Media Mate that ran on an IBM and
>allowed the drives to read and write over a dozen other formats
>(Kaypro, Ozborn, etc).
I think there is a color Commodore corroding in
my shed, somebody gave it to me after gigabyte hard
drives and win95 came out.
>Androcles provided a link to a pic of an early hard drive. First one
>I saw was similar, but connected to an IBM 360 in the 1960's it held
>either 1 or 10 meg (yeah, it's a bit hazzy :) When you closed the
>cover you could hear it draw all the air out as it spun the disc pack
>up to speed. In operation the whold drive jumped around on its shock
>mounts as the read/write heads moved in and out. For mass storage
>tape was used. For fast storage there were drum drives. Each track
>on the drum had its own read/write head.
But that was pretty much commercial only, by
1962 other companies got around the licensing and
started selling those used, but the programs were
still on paper tapes.
[no new text below]
Bruce Richmond
It was 5.25 just like the 320k which was double sided. The 160k drive
only had one read/write head while a 320k had one on each side. If
you got double sided discs you could flip them over and put another
160k on the back, but you only had access to 160k at a time. The same
applied to 180k and 360k formats.
As far as I know the 3.5 inch started out as a 720k double sided
format on the IBM. Some other formats fit 800k onto the same low
density disc.
> >I also have a 1981 IBM PC with two full height
> >360 KB floppy drives. The mother board had 16k of memory which had
> >been expanded to 64k on the MB. There were two expansion cards to
> >make room for a full 640k. That sucker threw some heat!
>
> But even with 640k installed, only 512k could
> be accessed with the operating system, I don't know
> if the upper 128k could be used for sub-routines
> with direct addressing.
>
> I have a big expansion card filled with 64k chips,
> 64 x 1, that is, but the TIPCs have 768k, and the
> Victor 9000 from the same era had 896k and a
> drive that had a different number of sectors as
> the head moved.
The Apple II used an 8 sector format but the Apple IIe went to
increasing numbers of sectors on the outer tracks to make better use
of the longer track length. Commodore did the same thing but they
approached the problem differently. Apple did the read/write at the
same frequency on all tracks and changed the rpm to get a different
number of sectors. Commodore kept the rpm constant and varied the
read/write frequency.
When the company I work for upgraded from an old mainframe to new PCs
I saved a teletype from getting trashed. The mainframe had no
monitor, output was to the printer, with a rotating letter ball. It
also has a reader/punch for tape. I wired it up to a com port on an
IBM PC to get it working. It's not really good for anything but it is
a cool piece of hardware to show to kids :)
> [no new text below]
>
>
>
> >> The Texas Instruments Professional Computer came
> >> out a year later than the IBM PC, but was configured for
> >> 4 floppies, the hard drives were hard coded to be E: and F:
> >> only, and had 768 K memory with the expansion board,
> >> I still have 4 of these.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
I M @ good guy
Yes, I added a memory card on an early IBM PC
for a General's wife, it had a single sided floppy and
a double sided floppy, both were 8 sector only,
maybe MSDOS 1.10 could only do 8 sectors, later
versions could do either 8 or 9.
One of the tricks to prevent copyright
violation was to format an extra track or
something, its been a long time.
>As far as I know the 3.5 inch started out as a 720k double sided
>format on the IBM. Some other formats fit 800k onto the same low
>density disc.
No, I definitely saw other computers that had
one sided single density 3.5 inch, but the DOT is
the only one I know of with 70 track drives, in
1988 I was pretty sick in Austin and an attorney,
I think his name is Joe Savage was wonderful,
helping me get the TIPC communication program
called "Tigger" so I could get on line, and also
helped me transfer some data from the 70 track
drives to 80 track drives. (as I remember)
There were dozens of 8 bit computers, and
quite a few 16 bit started out, like the DOT and
Victor 9000, which ran MSDOS, with varying
degrees of compatibility, the DOT was 95 percent
compatible, the sound interrupt being most of
the variance.
I had a friend that got into ADA on both
the IBM PC and the Victor 9000, I was using
Borland's Pascal integrated 2.0 editor-compiler
and didn't want to get into ADA, it was just a
hobby for me.
>> >I also have a 1981 IBM PC with two full height
>> >360 KB floppy drives. The mother board had 16k of memory which had
>> >been expanded to 64k on the MB. There were two expansion cards to
>> >make room for a full 640k. That sucker threw some heat!
>>
>> But even with 640k installed, only 512k could
>> be accessed with the operating system, I don't know
>> if the upper 128k could be used for sub-routines
>> with direct addressing.
>>
>> I have a big expansion card filled with 64k chips,
>> 64 x 1, that is, but the TIPCs have 768k, and the
>> Victor 9000 from the same era had 896k and a
>> drive that had a different number of sectors as
>> the head moved.
>
>The Apple II used an 8 sector format but the Apple IIe went to
>increasing numbers of sectors on the outer tracks to make better use
>of the longer track length. Commodore did the same thing but they
>approached the problem differently. Apple did the read/write at the
>same frequency on all tracks and changed the rpm to get a different
>number of sectors. Commodore kept the rpm constant and varied the
>read/write frequency.
The Victor 9000 changed RPM two or
three time when formatting, it really wound
up.
I have never been able to recall names all the
time, I thought there was another name for the first
IBM personal computer besides "XT", but that may
be it, over the years I had a small problem with
cases that had a removable panel for either
motherboard.
I still have a couple of the Tandon drives
shown in;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer
It is odd that few people heard of the TIPC,
most only heard of the small 16 bit TI-99/4A,
the TIPC came out as a desktop the same size as
the IBM PC,
http://www.web8bits.com/Marcas/Texas_Instruments/English/TIPC.html
and also as a self contained portable, both
had better color graphics than the IBM, 16 colors
(or gray scales on a green monitor).
http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/computer.asp?c=472&st=1
The Texas Instruments Professional Computer
may have been more successful in Europe than in
the US, on 50 cycle power, it had better resolution
on the monitor (as I remember).
Monitor work stations were being added to
mainframes I saw in 1980, but punch cards were
still being used for data input during the transition.
But printing was a problem, the Selectric
typewriters with memory cards used for half fast
word processing had a problem with the vowels
on the ball fonts wearing.