Tracing coat of arms...
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
be remiss not to follow up...
The paternal side of my family has a family name which was passed down
from generation to generation for at least the last 100 years. It's not
a name I share, but relatives still survive with this name:
James Roland Sutton
I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was
surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. Unfortunately,
I didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years ago for me to
remember the slightest detail.
Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one
specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have
the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out
about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a little because I
want to see if that lead could turn out to be anything interesting.
Thanks to all. I should mention that I'm in the UK - Birmingham - and
that my email is invalid. If you'd prefer to email me, make a request in
the group and I'll mail you off-group.
Thanks in advance!
mickg
heraldic rules, coats of arms are not granted or assigned to names. They
are assigned to individuals who have a name and as such are passed
through inheritance to their offspring.
Searches will fill in the detailed rules but in effect unless you can
prove with unquestionable documented evidence that your Suttons are
directly descended from the Sutton who was granted this coat of arms
there is no right to claim it is associated with them just because they
share a last name.
MickG
Huntersglenn
acknowledged that the coat of arms wouldn't pertain to him, and that it
had been granted to the one person, etc. He said he was curious about
it, not that he was trying to claim the right to display those arms.
Cathy
Charani
8>< snip
> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one
> specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have
> the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out
> about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a little because I
> want to see if that lead could turn out to be anything interesting.
You could well find that the arms are totally fictitious.
To find out more you would need to contact the College of Arms and
they will tell you - for a very hefty fee!!
You'd be better off calling into your local main library and having a
look in either the reference or lending section to see if they have an
armorial that lists SUTTON and what the arms are. You may find that
there's more than one.
SUTTON is a fairly common name, so the chances of a connection are
slim but . . . .
> Thanks to all. I should mention that I'm in the UK - Birmingham - and
> that my email is invalid. If you'd prefer to email me, make a request in
> the group and I'll mail you off-group.
I understand that Birmingham has an excellent library and local
studies library.
Did you know there is also a soc.genealogy.britain group as well as
this one.
Lesley Robertson
"Charani" <m...@privacy.net> schreef in bericht
news:44796634$0$15591$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>
> Did you know there is also a soc.genealogy.britain group as well as
> this one.
>
And Archive CD Books have copies of a couple of old books showing coats of
arms for different people.
Lesley Robertson
Johnny
more!
"mickg" <mickg...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2k6eg.5282$h01....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
mickg
to gullible people. I've even seen Sears join in that act. These are the
ones that do harm to people, Genealogy and who profiteer on peoples lack
of knowledge.
You want to find fault find it in the information given Otherwise you're
just trying to start another flame war. Because your post added nothing
to the subject matter of the thread.
MickG
Dave Hinz
> Ho hum here we go again. Sutton is an English name and under English
> heraldic rules, coats of arms are not granted or assigned to names. They
> are assigned to individuals who have a name and as such are passed
> through inheritance to their offspring.
Yeah, he knows, he said pretty much as such already.
> Searches will fill in the detailed rules but in effect unless you can
> prove with unquestionable documented evidence that your Suttons are
> directly descended from the Sutton who was granted this coat of arms
> there is no right to claim it is associated with them just because they
> share a last name.
That's not what he's asking. He sees a first/middle/last name that
seems to be echoing through the generations. Unless the first guy was
famous enough for unlreated people to name their kids after him, it's a
_very_ strong indication that it's worth researching a link.
In my case, I have a family of Methodist Ministers in my ancestry. The
names "Wesson Gage Miller" have echoed from generation to generation for
a very long time in that family, in one form or another. If I ran into
a "Gage Wesson Miller" who I found to be a Methodist Minister, I'd be
foolish not to spend the effort to see if we're linked. This seems to
be the same situation.
>> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one
>> specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have
>> the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out
>> about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a little because I
>> want to see if that lead could turn out to be anything interesting.
Seems reasonable to me, as an approach anyway.
Dave Hinz
> There's an entire industry out there providing often false Coats of Arms
> to gullible people. I've even seen Sears join in that act. These are the
> ones that do harm to people, Genealogy and who profiteer on peoples lack
> of knowledge.
The OP seems to understand that.
> You want to find fault find it in the information given Otherwise you're
> just trying to start another flame war. Because your post added nothing
> to the subject matter of the thread.
And yet, it's evidence of someone of that name having existed at some
time in the past. That's what's known as a "lead to research".
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
> There's an entire industry out there providing often false Coats of Arms
> to gullible people. I've even seen Sears join in that act. These are the
> ones that do harm to people, Genealogy and who profiteer on peoples lack
> of knowledge.
>
> You want to find fault find it in the information given Otherwise you're
> just trying to start another flame war. Because your post added nothing
> to the subject matter of the thread.
>
> MickG
If that's not a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know
what is.
Tell you what, Mick - assume I'm not an idiot and drop me a pearl of
wisdom if you can.
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
> Ho hum here we go again. Sutton is an English name and under English
> heraldic rules, coats of arms are not granted or assigned to names. They
> are assigned to individuals who have a name and as such are passed
> through inheritance to their offspring.
>
> Searches will fill in the detailed rules but in effect unless you can
> prove with unquestionable documented evidence that your Suttons are
> directly descended from the Sutton who was granted this coat of arms
> there is no right to claim it is associated with them just because they
> share a last name.
I have evidence of a line of James Roland Suttons running from the
middle of the 19th century to the present day - and a sighting of
someone with the EXACT SAME NAME being afforded a coat of arms in (if
memory serves) the 12th century. Why on earth wouldn't I want to
research it? I'm not trying to claim anything...yet :)
If that doesn't sound like a tenable connection to you - a starting
place at the very least, then perhaps you could let me know what I
should be looking for instead?
Do you generally assume everyone but you is an idiot, or have I been
accorded some special status?
Dave Hinz
> If that doesn't sound like a tenable connection to you - a starting
> place at the very least, then perhaps you could let me know what I
> should be looking for instead?
>
> Do you generally assume everyone but you is an idiot, or have I been
> accorded some special status?
I _like_ this guy.
cecilia
>[...] The paternal side of my family has a family name
>James Roland Sutton
>I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was
>surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. Unfortunately,
>I didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years ago for me to
My current PC setup is not able to produce a easily readable display
of the the contents of the Broderbund Family Archive CD #367 (Notable
British Families, 1600-1900s) which includes the General Armory, but I
don't think I spotted that name in the details of Sutton armigers,
whose arms fell into distinct groups (indicating, to me, a likelihood
that they were not thought to be part of the same extended family).
Myself, I'd look for a copy of Landed Gentry (Burke, I think) dating
from about 80-50 years ago (to give a chance that it includes the
"first " James Roland Sutton, and also that the armigerous line was
extant at the time of the book), and look for Suttons. If not found,
move the search forward.
However, not all armigers are (or were) landed enough to be included.
And some live(d) abroad.
CWatters
"Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks" <bago...@ctu.com> wrote in message
news:P03eg.225112$xt.8...@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> I realise there may be no connection to my family, but it's a lead I'd
> be remiss not to follow up...
>
> The paternal side of my family has a family name which was passed down
> from generation to generation for at least the last 100 years. It's not
> a name I share, but relatives still survive with this name:
>
> James Roland Sutton
>
> I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was
> surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. Unfortunately,
> I didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years ago for me to
> remember the slightest detail.
>
> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one
> specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have
> the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out
> about it
Try..
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/
The College of Arms is the official repository of the coats of arms and
pedigrees of English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Commonwealth families and
their descendants. Its records also include official copies of the records
of Ulster King of Arms the originals of which remain in Dublin.
mickg
as they wished. one in reply to someone named Johnny to which you have
opted to reply.
I put nothing personal nor made assumptions about anyone.
I don't join in slanging matches.
MickG
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks wrote:
the_ver...@comcast.net
CWatters wrote:
> The College of Arms is the official repository of the coats of arms and
> pedigrees of English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Commonwealth families and
> their descendants. Its records also include official copies of the records
> of Ulster King of Arms the originals of which remain in Dublin.
True- and it will cost you an arm, a leg, and certain reproductive
parts to have them do research for you.
--
The Verminator
Johnny
see as your post added much to the subject matter of the thread either...
"mickg" <mickg...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Uoheg.10831$cB...@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
Dave Hinz
> I put some information out that you or anyone else could take or ignore
> as they wished. one in reply to someone named Johnny to which you have
> opted to reply.
Mick, why can't you just acknowledge that you saw "coat of arms", didn't
read any further, and gave the standard answer? That's clearly what
happened.
Gary Smith
"Dave Hinz" <Dave...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:4du8ggF...@individual.net...
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
> I put some information out that you or anyone else could take or ignore
> as they wished.
Information which was wholly unnecessary, as the first line of my
original post makes perfectly clear. I can only assume that you either
a) didn't read further than the subject line or b) have some
sophisticated auto-response thing that goes off every time someone posts
"coat of arms" to the group.
If scenario a) is the case, then you have - however unintentionally -
come across as portentious, unhelpful and condescending. If scenario b)
is the case, switch it off.
I chose to answer your reply to Tommy as you too have not added to the
discussion.
Do you feel like adding to the discussion at all?
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
I was intrigued, so shot off a query through their website. Let's see
how much it'll cost me to have them thumb through a little book on
heraldic names like I did all those years ago...
Dave Hinz
(snip)
> If scenario a) is the case, then you have - however unintentionally -
> come across as portentious, unhelpful and condescending. If scenario b)
> is the case, switch it off.
> I chose to answer your reply to Tommy as you too have not added to the
> discussion.
I really, _really_ like this guy. So yeah, absolutely, I'd chase this
one. The naming patterns are intriguing enough that it's a lead you
need to rule out if nothing else. The fact that you saw it tied to an
individual rather than "the Whatever Family of England" seems to
indicate it was at least not the usual scam/BS type book.
Naming patterns are useful indications, clues, of being in the right
family group. And the first/middle/last like you see, you've got to
chase that down. If the original was notable, someone else may have
done the research already, making verification that much easier.
Let us know what you find please.
Dave Hinz
Huntersglenn
Directory of Gentlemen of Coat-Armour", edited by Arthur Fox-Davies,
1970 edition, and did not find anyone named James Roland Sutton.
I did however, find a James Sutton of Shadlow Hall, born 1800, died
1868, who married Sophia Hoskyns, daughter of Abraham Hoskyns.
Hope that helps one way or another,
Cathy
Charani
> I was intrigued, so shot off a query through their website. Let's see
> how much it'll cost me to have them thumb through a little book on
> heraldic names like I did all those years ago...
It'll be more than just a little book on heraldic names like you did.
They have more information than is included in the books. To gie you
some idea of the cost. I was asked for £50 to do a search on a coat
of arms that I knew a bit about and that was nearly 40 years ago. The
cost will be considerably higher than that now.
--
http://home.comcast.net/~webact1/Collingridge/
Sir Creep
mickg wrote:
> I put nothing personal nor made assumptions about anyone.
> I don't join in slanging matches.
> MickG
Not true, Mick. Not when you start a post with "Ho hum here we go
again". That certainly shows a condescending attitude toward the OP,
if nothing else; and to the contrary, such a sentence could only have
been typed by your hands with a slinging match in mind.
A retort isn't necessary, and isn't expected from a person who doesn't
'join slanging [sic] matches'.
David J Grimshaw
Like Charani says it is not cheap.
I looked at getting "The College of Arms" to do some research a couple
of years ago and was staggered by what they where asking, if memory
serves me correctly the price was in the region of 600 pounds sterling
when converted to New Zealand currency that's about three times the amount.
For $1800.00NZD you can get allot of certificates even from the GRO in
England in fact for my One Name Study it would just about get all the
certificates for all the individuals that have been indexed in the
England & Wales BMD's index for 7 pounds each.
In my case I have chosen to get the certificates as this has a higher
priority than finding out if any member of the family was ever issued a
coat of arms at present, maybe at a latter date I will re look at
getting the research done by "The College of Arms" concerning possible
coats of arms.
That's my view and my choice.
David
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
Got a very nicely handwritten letter from the College of arms today...
£250!
Best written letter I've seen for a long time, or could ever hope to,
but they can bog off...very politely, of course.
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
I've taken advantage of the free two weeks' membership with
ancestry.co.uk and picking my dad's brains with a view to working
backwards. I did spot a few different James Suttons in the relevant
lists going back to the 17th century - and a Roland sutton or two, but
no James Roland Suttons.
It does intrigue me, though, that I'm sure I saw the J.R. Sutton arms
referred to as being 12th century. If I could just find it...
ancestry.co.uk is a maze that may take more than two weeks to go
through. Looks like I'm off to the Reference library. One link I might
have is that the book I remember was newly published in 1993. There
can't have been that many heraldry books published in '92, 93...can there?
--
>> http://lithaborn.co.uk <<
the_ver...@comcast.net
I wil not say it.. I will not say it... ;)
--
The Verminator
cecilia
>can't have been that many heraldry books published in '92, 93...can there?
Thoughts:
I presume you mean J R Sutton was listed in the book as the current
holder of the arms granted in the 12C.
Landed Gentry, Peerage etc books (which tend to include arms for those
families that have them) are published at regular intervals (though
less frequently these days).
Sometimes old books are re-published - and havbe the re-publication
date in an obvious place.
(No need to acknowledge)
Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks
> Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks wrote:
>> [...] I'm sure I saw the J.R. Sutton arms
>> referred to as being 12th century.
>> [...] One link I might
>> have is that the book I remember was newly published in 1993. There
>> can't have been that many heraldry books published in '92, 93...can there?
>
> Thoughts:
>
> I presume you mean J R Sutton was listed in the book as the current
> holder of the arms granted in the 12C.
I wish I could remember. It was a "list" book, kind of a directory, but
of what, I can't recall, apart from generally "English coats of arms".
What I can recall is that it was quite a small book, hardly concise.
Certainly not a peerage book or Landed Gentry list, maybe a random list
of coats of arms gleaned from some source other than the college of
arms. If only I knew...
Charani
> Got a very nicely handwritten letter from the College of arms today...
>
> £250!
That's a lot less than I would have expected. I'd anticipated they'd
have asked 2 or 3 times that. Still a lot of money even so.
Charani
> I've taken advantage of the free two weeks' membership with
> ancestry.co.uk and picking my dad's brains with a view to working
> backwards. I did spot a few different James Suttons in the relevant
> lists going back to the 17th century - and a Roland sutton or two, but
> no James Roland Suttons.
One thing to bear in mind is that the further back you go, the less
likely it is for someone to bear more than one given name.
--
http://home.comcast.net/~webact1/Collingridge/