I realise there may be no connection to my family, but it's a lead I'd be remiss not to follow up...
The paternal side of my family has a family name which was passed down from generation to generation for at least the last 100 years. It's not a name I share, but relatives still survive with this name:
James Roland Sutton
I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. Unfortunately, I didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years ago for me to remember the slightest detail.
Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a little because I want to see if that lead could turn out to be anything interesting.
Thanks to all. I should mention that I'm in the UK - Birmingham - and that my email is invalid. If you'd prefer to email me, make a request in the group and I'll mail you off-group.
Ho hum here we go again. Sutton is an English name and under English heraldic rules, coats of arms are not granted or assigned to names. They are assigned to individuals who have a name and as such are passed through inheritance to their offspring.
Searches will fill in the detailed rules but in effect unless you can prove with unquestionable documented evidence that your Suttons are directly descended from the Sutton who was granted this coat of arms there is no right to claim it is associated with them just because they share a last name.
> I realise there may be no connection to my family, but it's a lead I'd > be remiss not to follow up...
> The paternal side of my family has a family name which was passed down > from generation to generation for at least the last 100 years. It's not > a name I share, but relatives still survive with this name:
> James Roland Sutton
> I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was > surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. Unfortunately, > I didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years ago for me to > remember the slightest detail.
> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one > specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have > the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out > about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a little because I > want to see if that lead could turn out to be anything interesting.
> Thanks to all. I should mention that I'm in the UK - Birmingham - and > that my email is invalid. If you'd prefer to email me, make a request in > the group and I'll mail you off-group.
And if you go back and read the original post, you'd see that the poster acknowledged that the coat of arms wouldn't pertain to him, and that it had been granted to the one person, etc. He said he was curious about it, not that he was trying to claim the right to display those arms.
mickg wrote: > Ho hum here we go again. Sutton is an English name and under English > heraldic rules, coats of arms are not granted or assigned to names. They > are assigned to individuals who have a name and as such are passed > through inheritance to their offspring.
> Searches will fill in the detailed rules but in effect unless you can > prove with unquestionable documented evidence that your Suttons are > directly descended from the Sutton who was granted this coat of arms > there is no right to claim it is associated with them just because they > share a last name.
On Sat, 27 May 2006 20:55:11 GMT, Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks wrote:
8>< snip
> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one > specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have > the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out > about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a little because I > want to see if that lead could turn out to be anything interesting.
You could well find that the arms are totally fictitious.
To find out more you would need to contact the College of Arms and they will tell you - for a very hefty fee!!
You'd be better off calling into your local main library and having a look in either the reference or lending section to see if they have an armorial that lists SUTTON and what the arms are. You may find that there's more than one.
SUTTON is a fairly common name, so the chances of a connection are slim but . . . .
> Thanks to all. I should mention that I'm in the UK - Birmingham - and > that my email is invalid. If you'd prefer to email me, make a request in > the group and I'll mail you off-group.
I understand that Birmingham has an excellent library and local studies library.
Did you know there is also a soc.genealogy.britain group as well as this one.
> Ho hum here we go again. Sutton is an English name and under English > heraldic rules, coats of arms are not granted or assigned to names. They > are assigned to individuals who have a name and as such are passed through > inheritance to their offspring.
> Searches will fill in the detailed rules but in effect unless you can > prove with unquestionable documented evidence that your Suttons are > directly descended from the Sutton who was granted this coat of arms there > is no right to claim it is associated with them just because they share a > last name.
> MickG
> Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks wrote: >> I realise there may be no connection to my family, but it's a lead I'd be >> remiss not to follow up...
>> The paternal side of my family has a family name which was passed down >> from generation to generation for at least the last 100 years. It's not a >> name I share, but relatives still survive with this name:
>> James Roland Sutton
>> I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was >> surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. Unfortunately, I >> didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years ago for me to remember >> the slightest detail.
>> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one >> specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have >> the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out >> about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a little because I >> want to see if that lead could turn out to be anything interesting.
>> Thanks to all. I should mention that I'm in the UK - Birmingham - and >> that my email is invalid. If you'd prefer to email me, make a request in >> the group and I'll mail you off-group.
There's an entire industry out there providing often false Coats of Arms to gullible people. I've even seen Sears join in that act. These are the ones that do harm to people, Genealogy and who profiteer on peoples lack of knowledge.
You want to find fault find it in the information given Otherwise you're just trying to start another flame war. Because your post added nothing to the subject matter of the thread.
On Sun, 28 May 2006 00:40:30 GMT, mickg <mickgNoS...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote: > Ho hum here we go again. Sutton is an English name and under English > heraldic rules, coats of arms are not granted or assigned to names. They > are assigned to individuals who have a name and as such are passed > through inheritance to their offspring.
Yeah, he knows, he said pretty much as such already.
> Searches will fill in the detailed rules but in effect unless you can > prove with unquestionable documented evidence that your Suttons are > directly descended from the Sutton who was granted this coat of arms > there is no right to claim it is associated with them just because they > share a last name.
That's not what he's asking. He sees a first/middle/last name that seems to be echoing through the generations. Unless the first guy was famous enough for unlreated people to name their kids after him, it's a _very_ strong indication that it's worth researching a link.
In my case, I have a family of Methodist Ministers in my ancestry. The names "Wesson Gage Miller" have echoed from generation to generation for a very long time in that family, in one form or another. If I ran into a "Gage Wesson Miller" who I found to be a Methodist Minister, I'd be foolish not to spend the effort to see if we're linked. This seems to be the same situation.
>> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one >> specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have >> the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out >> about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a little because I >> want to see if that lead could turn out to be anything interesting.
On Sun, 28 May 2006 13:16:36 GMT, mickg <mickgNoS...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote: > There's an entire industry out there providing often false Coats of Arms > to gullible people. I've even seen Sears join in that act. These are the > ones that do harm to people, Genealogy and who profiteer on peoples lack > of knowledge.
The OP seems to understand that.
> You want to find fault find it in the information given Otherwise you're > just trying to start another flame war. Because your post added nothing > to the subject matter of the thread.
And yet, it's evidence of someone of that name having existed at some time in the past. That's what's known as a "lead to research".
mickg wrote: > There's an entire industry out there providing often false Coats of Arms > to gullible people. I've even seen Sears join in that act. These are the > ones that do harm to people, Genealogy and who profiteer on peoples lack > of knowledge.
> You want to find fault find it in the information given Otherwise you're > just trying to start another flame war. Because your post added nothing > to the subject matter of the thread.
> MickG
If that's not a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.
Tell you what, Mick - assume I'm not an idiot and drop me a pearl of wisdom if you can.
mickg wrote: > Ho hum here we go again. Sutton is an English name and under English > heraldic rules, coats of arms are not granted or assigned to names. They > are assigned to individuals who have a name and as such are passed > through inheritance to their offspring.
> Searches will fill in the detailed rules but in effect unless you can > prove with unquestionable documented evidence that your Suttons are > directly descended from the Sutton who was granted this coat of arms > there is no right to claim it is associated with them just because they > share a last name.
I have evidence of a line of James Roland Suttons running from the middle of the 19th century to the present day - and a sighting of someone with the EXACT SAME NAME being afforded a coat of arms in (if memory serves) the 12th century. Why on earth wouldn't I want to research it? I'm not trying to claim anything...yet :)
If that doesn't sound like a tenable connection to you - a starting place at the very least, then perhaps you could let me know what I should be looking for instead?
Do you generally assume everyone but you is an idiot, or have I been accorded some special status?
> Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks wrote: >> I realise there may be no connection to my family, but it's a lead I'd >> be remiss not to follow up...
>> The paternal side of my family has a family name which was passed down >> from generation to generation for at least the last 100 years. It's >> not a name I share, but relatives still survive with this name:
>> James Roland Sutton
>> I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was >> surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. >> Unfortunately, I didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years >> ago for me to remember the slightest detail.
>> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to >> one specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily >> have the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to >> find out about it - mostly for the sake of curiosity, but also a >> little because I want to see if that lead could turn out to be >> anything interesting.
>> Thanks to all. I should mention that I'm in the UK - Birmingham - and >> that my email is invalid. If you'd prefer to email me, make a request >> in the group and I'll mail you off-group.
On Sun, 28 May 2006 18:25:43 GMT, Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks <bagot...@ctu.com> wrote:
> If that doesn't sound like a tenable connection to you - a starting > place at the very least, then perhaps you could let me know what I > should be looking for instead?
> Do you generally assume everyone but you is an idiot, or have I been > accorded some special status?
bagot...@ctu.com wrote: >[...] The paternal side of my family has a family name > which was passed down from generation to generation > for at least the last 100 years.[...] relatives still survive with this name: >James Roland Sutton >I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was >surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. Unfortunately, >I didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years ago for me to >remember the slightest detail. [...]
My current PC setup is not able to produce a easily readable display of the the contents of the Broderbund Family Archive CD #367 (Notable British Families, 1600-1900s) which includes the General Armory, but I don't think I spotted that name in the details of Sutton armigers, whose arms fell into distinct groups (indicating, to me, a likelihood that they were not thought to be part of the same extended family).
Myself, I'd look for a copy of Landed Gentry (Burke, I think) dating from about 80-50 years ago (to give a chance that it includes the "first " James Roland Sutton, and also that the armigerous line was extant at the time of the book), and look for Suttons. If not found, move the search forward.
However, not all armigers are (or were) landed enough to be included. And some live(d) abroad.
> I realise there may be no connection to my family, but it's a lead I'd > be remiss not to follow up...
> The paternal side of my family has a family name which was passed down > from generation to generation for at least the last 100 years. It's not > a name I share, but relatives still survive with this name:
> James Roland Sutton
> I once looked up the name in a work colleagues' genealogy book and was > surprised to find a coat of arms for that specific name. Unfortunately, > I didn't take a note of it - and it's too many years ago for me to > remember the slightest detail.
> Once again, I understand that this coat of arms will only pertain to one > specfic person. I understand that this person doesn't necessarily have > the slightest connection to my family. However, I still want to find out > about it
The College of Arms is the official repository of the coats of arms and pedigrees of English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Commonwealth families and their descendants. Its records also include official copies of the records of Ulster King of Arms the originals of which remain in Dublin.
I put some information out that you or anyone else could take or ignore as they wished. one in reply to someone named Johnny to which you have opted to reply.
I put nothing personal nor made assumptions about anyone.
>> There's an entire industry out there providing often false Coats of >> Arms to gullible people. I've even seen Sears join in that act. These >> are the ones that do harm to people, Genealogy and who profiteer on >> peoples lack of knowledge.
>> You want to find fault find it in the information given Otherwise >> you're just trying to start another flame war. Because your post added >> nothing to the subject matter of the thread.
>> MickG
> If that's not a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know > what is.
> Tell you what, Mick - assume I'm not an idiot and drop me a pearl of > wisdom if you can.
>> Johnny wrote:
>>> I just love these kind of responses. It makes new people want to >>> post even more!
CWatters wrote: > The College of Arms is the official repository of the coats of arms and > pedigrees of English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Commonwealth families and > their descendants. Its records also include official copies of the records > of Ulster King of Arms the originals of which remain in Dublin.
True- and it will cost you an arm, a leg, and certain reproductive parts to have them do research for you.
> There's an entire industry out there providing often false Coats of Arms > to gullible people. I've even seen Sears join in that act. These are the > ones that do harm to people, Genealogy and who profiteer on peoples lack > of knowledge.
> You want to find fault find it in the information given Otherwise you're > just trying to start another flame war. Because your post added nothing to > the subject matter of the thread.
> MickG
> Johnny wrote: >> I just love these kind of responses. It makes new people want to post >> even more!
On Sun, 28 May 2006 21:13:28 GMT, mickg <mickgNoS...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote: > I put some information out that you or anyone else could take or ignore > as they wished. one in reply to someone named Johnny to which you have > opted to reply.
Mick, why can't you just acknowledge that you saw "coat of arms", didn't read any further, and gave the standard answer? That's clearly what happened.
> On Sun, 28 May 2006 18:25:43 GMT, Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks > <bagot...@ctu.com> wrote:
>> If that doesn't sound like a tenable connection to you - a starting >> place at the very least, then perhaps you could let me know what I >> should be looking for instead?
>> Do you generally assume everyone but you is an idiot, or have I been >> accorded some special status?
> "Dave Hinz" <DaveH...@spamcop.net> wrote in message > news:4du8ggF1ar09kU1@individual.net... >> On Sun, 28 May 2006 18:25:43 GMT, Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks >> <bagot...@ctu.com> wrote:
>>> If that doesn't sound like a tenable connection to you - a starting >>> place at the very least, then perhaps you could let me know what I >>> should be looking for instead?
>>> Do you generally assume everyone but you is an idiot, or have I been >>> accorded some special status? >> I _like_ this guy.
mickg wrote: > I put some information out that you or anyone else could take or ignore > as they wished.
Information which was wholly unnecessary, as the first line of my original post makes perfectly clear. I can only assume that you either a) didn't read further than the subject line or b) have some sophisticated auto-response thing that goes off every time someone posts "coat of arms" to the group.
If scenario a) is the case, then you have - however unintentionally - come across as portentious, unhelpful and condescending. If scenario b) is the case, switch it off.
I chose to answer your reply to Tommy as you too have not added to the discussion.
>> The College of Arms is the official repository of the coats of arms and >> pedigrees of English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Commonwealth families and >> their descendants. Its records also include official copies of the records >> of Ulster King of Arms the originals of which remain in Dublin.
> True- and it will cost you an arm, a leg, and certain reproductive > parts to have them do research for you.
> -- > The Verminator
I was intrigued, so shot off a query through their website. Let's see how much it'll cost me to have them thumb through a little book on heraldic names like I did all those years ago...
On Tue, 30 May 2006 01:43:59 GMT, Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks <bagot...@ctu.com> wrote:
(snip)
> If scenario a) is the case, then you have - however unintentionally - > come across as portentious, unhelpful and condescending. If scenario b) > is the case, switch it off. > I chose to answer your reply to Tommy as you too have not added to the > discussion.
I really, _really_ like this guy. So yeah, absolutely, I'd chase this one. The naming patterns are intriguing enough that it's a lead you need to rule out if nothing else. The fact that you saw it tied to an individual rather than "the Whatever Family of England" seems to indicate it was at least not the usual scam/BS type book.
Naming patterns are useful indications, clues, of being in the right family group. And the first/middle/last like you see, you've got to chase that down. If the original was notable, someone else may have done the research already, making verification that much easier.
I looked up the Sutton surname in a book I've got, "Armorial Families: A Directory of Gentlemen of Coat-Armour", edited by Arthur Fox-Davies, 1970 edition, and did not find anyone named James Roland Sutton.
I did however, find a James Sutton of Shadlow Hall, born 1800, died 1868, who married Sophia Hoskyns, daughter of Abraham Hoskyns.
On Tue, 30 May 2006 01:46:06 GMT, Jack Bauer's Bag o Tricks wrote:
> I was intrigued, so shot off a query through their website. Let's see > how much it'll cost me to have them thumb through a little book on > heraldic names like I did all those years ago...
It'll be more than just a little book on heraldic names like you did. They have more information than is included in the books. To gie you some idea of the cost. I was asked for £50 to do a search on a coat of arms that I knew a bit about and that was nearly 40 years ago. The cost will be considerably higher than that now. -- http://home.comcast.net/~webact1/Collingridge/
