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Rick Bratt  
View profile  
 More options Apr 12 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: Rick Bratt <ab...@hula.net>
Date: 1999/04/12
Subject: Family Tree Maker
Still looking for the best software value before I commit to entering
tons of data. $ is not really the object here. Is there anyone who can
sing the praises of FTM? Does one really gain any value from a 15 disk
set. Are there that many leads to be had in it. If this has been hashed
and rehashed, forgive me I'm pretty new to this.
Thanks and Aloha

 
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David Gilbert  
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 More options Apr 13 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "David Gilbert" <dig...@bellsouth.net>
Date: 1999/04/13
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
I'll sing a little.  After using PAF for quite a number of years I made the
decision to go to a Windows based software package.  It is a much easier
program and does allow for more flexibility.  I bought the 10 disk package
and to be honest (in hindsight) I would have been just as well off to go
with just the Family TreeMaker as opposed to all the SSN info and World Tree
Submissions.  You still have to purchase additional cds to get detailed
information.  As for FTM itself I DO enjoy being able to scan in images of
documents and photos to add to individual files.  The only problem I had in
converting my PAF database to FTM was in the notes portion.  FTM didn't
recognize all the characters and had a tendency to put a ">" at either the
beginning or ending of each sentence.  Annoying but it can be worked with to
remove them (manually).  All in all I'm glad I made the switch.  PAF made an
attempt to go to a Windows based package by sending out PAF Companion but it
was for reporting purposes only.  A little late in my opinion....
Regards..
David

Rick Bratt <ab...@hula.net> wrote in message

news:3712CCB6.4537EFEE@hula.net...


 
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Paul Burchfield  
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 More options Apr 14 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Paul Burchfield" <paul_burchfi...@broder.com>
Date: 1999/04/14
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Rick,

Since the difference between the 8 and 15-CD sets of Family Tree Maker is
the number of additional data CDs that are included, I'd encourage you to do
a bit of homework before you decide which one to purchase. The Internet
FamilyFinder at our World Wide Web site allows you to search through the
Index to all of our CDs. if you search for people for whom you are searching
you can see if any of their names are listed on any of our Family Archive CD
collection. Then, use the description of the CD(s) on which those names are
found (type of data, geographic location, and time period) to determine if
the names found on the CDs could be the people for whom you are searching.
Then, see if the likely CDs are the ones that come in the retail versions.
Use this method to help determine which one will be most beneficial and
cost-efficient for you.

--

Paul Burchfield, The Learning Company
Family Tree Maker FAQs, hints, tips and more at:
** http://www.familytreemaker.com/support.html
Free genealogy resources (message boards & more):
** http://www.genealogy.com/

Rick Bratt <ab...@hula.net> wrote in message

news:3712CCB6.4537EFEE@hula.net...


 
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Rick Bratt  
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 More options Apr 14 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: Rick Bratt <ab...@hula.net>
Date: 1999/04/14
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Appreciate the info!


 
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MooseLake  
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 More options Apr 17 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "MooseLake" <mooselakenos...@news.cmc.com>
Date: 1999/04/17
Subject: Family Tree Maker
What was the version number that came out that used 1.44 floppy disks??????

I have a computer that uses 1.44 floppies.  My computer does not have the
CD-ROM option.  Not really interested in purchasing a new portable for
$3,000 just for the CD-ROM option.

Please post to this list, please do NOT e-mail privately.
ML


 
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Ubermon  
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 More options Apr 20 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: nospam@rbmil...@airmail.net (Ubermon)
Date: 1999/04/20
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
I purchased FTM v5 with the 10 CD set in August of 1997.  It was 80,
and that was an incredible amount of money to me...still is.  But I
will tell you that within 3 weeks I had recovered more than 50% of
information that had been lost and I thought would never be able to be
replaced when I had to move overnight one year and all my genealogy
stuff got left behind on accident.  

I have also found FTM incredibly easy to use, with very few problems.
I had tried Brother's Keeper, and Kindred Konnections software, but
those gave me too many headaches, albeit they did give some nifty
reports that FTM doesn't.

Just my humble opinion,
Brandy M. Miller
brandymil...@usa.net
Source Documents Online: http://members.xoom.com/srcdocsol/
Under The Miller Tree: http://members.xoom.com/BMMiller


 
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Jules Schlechter  
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 More options Apr 20 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Jules Schlechter" <jschl...@california.com>
Date: 1999/04/20
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Hi ABRAT

To see if the extra WFT CD's are going to be of any use to you, check out
FTM's search engine,Internet Family Finder, at either
www.familytreemaker.com or
www.genealogy.com  .  Enter the names you want to checkout and in the
option list below that, check only the WFT CD's to see if those
individuals are on any CD's before you purchase. The 15 CD package will
probably give WFT vol. 1-10, 2 SSDI, and the Program/Index CDs.

Jules Schlechter
jule...@juno.com (NO file attachments)
jschlech@california. com  (file attachments OK)
SVL  RR Club web site http://www.falken.net/dave/svl/

Ubermon wrote in message

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Robertta Burns  
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 More options May 9 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: Robertta Burns <rjbur...@mindspring.com>
Date: 1999/05/09
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
We have been using Family Tree Maker for several years. I like the program
but find the extra disks of limited value. The most recent set I paid over
$70 dollars and basically received lists. I can find more useful
information over the internet or in libraries. Also now that it has been
sold they send you a free "magazine" which is mostly a sales catolague. So
use the program but see if you can review some of the disks somewhere
before paying for them.
R Burns


 
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Paul Burchfield  
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 More options May 9 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Paul Burchfield" <paul_burchfi...@broder.com>
Date: 1999/05/09
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Robertta,

How do you make the decision on what Family Archive CDs to buy? We don't
recommend that you buy them based on title alone. That is an unnecessary
risk and only creates an expectation that may not be realized when you
receive the CDs.

We have always provided the FamilyFinder Index along with Family Tree Maker
to help you determine what CD may provide information. Also, the Internet
FamilyFinder which is available to anyone at our World Wide Web site allows
you to fins out if any name in which you are interested is found on any CD
we produce. If one of these tools shows that a name you are searching for is
on one of our 185+ CDs, you then use the description of the CD (data type,
geographic location and time period) to further determine if the CD could
contain the person Family Pager whom you are searching. It is at this point
that you decide whether to buy the CD or not. And because we know that it is
not until you buy the CD will you be able to determine if the name listed on
the CD is the person for whom you are searching, we back every purchase with
an unconditional 90-day money-back guarantee. proper use of these search
tools increases the likelihood that you will find useful information and
will cut down any false expectations.

As for the Family Tree Maker Magazine, we have been creating it for a number
of years now. It is nothing new. It gives us a chance to share not the new
Family Archive CD releases but we also include articles and tips about
Family Tree Maker in it.

--

Paul Burchfield, The Learning Company
Family Tree Maker FAQs, hints, tips and more at:
** http://www.familytreemaker.com/support.html
Free genealogy resources (message boards & more):
** http://www.genealogy.com/

Robertta Burns <rjbur...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:3735B79F.EBC20A24@mindspring.com...


 
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sinnamon  
View profile  
 More options May 9 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "sinnamon" <si...@dragnet.net>
Date: 1999/05/09
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
I went the the family tree maker web site and did a search for Brickhouse
I came up with matches on 168 disc
how can someone possibly buy that many disc's (unless they are rich)
it would be so much nicer if you put all one surname on one or two disc
instead of little tidbits on hundreds. but they would not do that. this way
they think they will sell more. but i would guess they would sell many more
if they put one surname on a few discs.
sorry for whining but thanks for listening
sinna

Paul Burchfield <paul_burchfi...@broder.com> wrote in article
<EAjZ2.10945$MQ1.3...@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com>...


 
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Mary Daukas  
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 More options May 9 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: hapid...@frazmtn.com (Mary Daukas)
Date: 1999/05/09
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Wouldn't it be great if FTM let those of us that contribute our
information to their site free, be granted free use of the disks to
which we contribute?....... Just a thought!...Mary

Researching Lithuania: von VAGNER, DAGYATES, BALCIUNAS, DUBNIKA

 
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Joe Btfsplk  
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 More options May 9 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: J...@schlepper.com (Joe Btfsplk)
Date: 1999/05/09
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
I bought the so called "Deluxe Edition 3" which contains 9 cd's. I
find it a real joke to include the social security death index on 2 of
the 9 cd's when this database is free on the web and frequently
updated.
On Sun, 09 May 1999 09:28:16 -0700, Robertta Burns


 
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Mike&TonyaHarris  
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 More options May 9 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Mike&TonyaHarris" <mthar...@ev1.net>
Date: 1999/05/09
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
It seems it should be that way doesn't it?  But isn't everything in this
world for profit?  Do you not have to pay for water at restaraunts now?
(Just an example)  The more I read on this program, in which I do use it,
the less I want the CD's too.  This newsgroup IS informative, and you can
get most of the information for free elsewhere, you just have to look.
tonya harris
Mary Daukas wrote in message <199905092240.PAA09...@pine.frazmtn.com>...

Wouldn't it be great if FTM let those of us that contribute our
information to their site free, be granted free use of the disks to
which we contribute?....... Just a thought!...Mary

Researching Lithuania: von VAGNER, DAGYATES, BALCIUNAS, DUBNIKA

 
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Joe Bananas  
View profile  
 More options May 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: joebana...@hotmail.com (Joe Bananas)
Date: 1999/05/10
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
On Sun, 09 May 1999 23:15:07 GMT, J...@schlepper.com (Joe Btfsplk)
wrote:

>I bought the so called "Deluxe Edition 3" which contains 9 cd's. I
>find it a real joke to include the social security death index . . .

I guess the joke's on you, hey?

 
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Paul Burchfield  
View profile  
 More options May 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Paul Burchfield" <paul_burchfi...@broder.com>
Date: 1999/05/10
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
I agree that the search you did can be overwhelming. But I suppose having
that many potential matches is better than having no matches.

What you can do know is to look at the descriptions of the Family Archive
CDs and determine which your relative could be on and which they could not
be on. This is where the type of data on the CD can come into play. If you
find this name on the Quaker Genealogy CD and your relative wasn't Quaker,
then you can disregard the match on that CD. You also can use the time
period on the CD to help narrow down the possibilities.

The program Family Tree Maker includes the best way to find out which CDs
contain information in a part of the program called the FamilyFinder Report.
The FamilyFinder Report uses the data you have entered to perform the
search. This was we can search based on names, dates, locations, and
relationships. If you'd like you find out more about the FamilyFinder
Report, go to http://www.familytreemaker.com/22_ffrpt.html.

If you look at the number of CDs we produce, you'll see that it is not a
matter of splitting the surnames onto different CDs. The CDs are created
according to the type of data which is included on the CD.

--

Paul Burchfield, The Learning Company
Family Tree Maker FAQs, hints, tips and more at:
** http://www.familytreemaker.com/support.html
Free genealogy resources (message boards & more):
** http://www.genealogy.com/

sinnamon <si...@dragnet.net> wrote in message

news:01be9a62$d5f617a0$99e763ce@default...
> I went the the family tree maker web site and did a search for Brickhouse
> I came up with matches on 168 disc
> how can someone possibly buy that many disc's (unless they are rich)
> it would be so much nicer if you put all one surname on one or two disc
> instead of little tidbits on hundreds. but they would not do that. this
way
> they think they will sell more. but i would guess they would sell many
more
> if they put one surname on a few discs.
> sorry for whining but thanks for listening
> sinna

<snip>

 
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Paul Burchfield  
View profile  
 More options May 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Paul Burchfield" <paul_burchfi...@broder.com>
Date: 1999/05/10
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Now we need to make come distinctions. In my reply to Robertta, I was
talking about the Family Archive CD collection in general. The Family
Archive CD collection includes more than 185 CDs from many, many different
sources.

You are talking about the World Family Tree Project which includes about 30
CDs within the total collection. To those that contribute to the World
Family Tree Project, we make it clear up front what the rights of a
contributor is. They have remained constant for the life of the project. You
can find them at:

http://www.familytreemaker.com/subagree.html

By saying in advance of your contribution that "contributing your family
tree to Broderbund Software does not entitle you to any compensation,
monetary or other", it seems clear that those that contribute agree with
that and those that don't agree don't contribute.

I can certainly pass along your request to those in charge of the World
Family Tree Project.

--

Paul Burchfield, The Learning Company
Family Tree Maker FAQs, hints, tips and more at:
** http://www.familytreemaker.com/support.html
Free genealogy resources (message boards & more):
** http://www.genealogy.com/

Mary Daukas <hapid...@frazmtn.com> wrote in message

news:199905092240.PAA09727@pine.frazmtn.com...
> Wouldn't it be great if FTM let those of us that contribute our
> information to their site free, be granted free use of the disks to
> which we contribute?....... Just a thought!...Mary

<snip>

 
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Paul Burchfield  
View profile  
 More options May 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Paul Burchfield" <paul_burchfi...@broder.com>
Date: 1999/05/10
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
We've been including the Social Security Death Index CDs in our retail
packages before it was ever available on the Internet. When we first began
including these CDs, the number of people with access to the Internet was
low and the World Wide Web was fairly new. Since then, when new retail
versions of Family Tree Maker have been released, we've added to the CDs in
the box and the Social Security Death Index CDs remain one of the most
popular sets we offer. Plus, there are still many people who do not have
access to or use the World Wide Web. Finally, for many, the CDs are more
convenient and quicker than using the World Wide Web (plus using the CDs
with Family Tree Maker allows you to do more advanced searching on those
CDs).

--

Paul Burchfield, The Learning Company
Family Tree Maker FAQs, hints, tips and more at:
** http://www.familytreemaker.com/support.html
Free genealogy resources (message boards & more):
** http://www.genealogy.com/

Joe Btfsplk <J...@schlepper.com> wrote in message

news:3736152c.4411880@news.earthlink.net...
> I bought the so called "Deluxe Edition 3" which contains 9 cd's. I
> find it a real joke to include the social security death index on 2 of
> the 9 cd's when this database is free on the web and frequently
> updated.

<snip>

 
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Guy Etchells  
View profile  
 More options May 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: guy.etche...@virgin.net (Guy Etchells)
Date: 1999/05/10
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Not everybody has access to the internet or the web.
Cheers
Guy

--
Wakefield England

http://freespace.virgin.net/guy.etchells     Transcripts, Parish
Records, Calendar, Scaleable Map of Uk. Link to LDS website, Returns of
Owners of Lands etc. etc.
http://www.guye.freeserve.co.uk     Whitefield Transcripts, Etch/ells
Transcripts
http://gye.future.easyspace.com     Worldwide Cemetery Links, Monumental
Inscriptions, War Graves, etc.
http://homepage.virgin.net/wakefield.fhs   Wakefield FHS website,   War
Memorials


 
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LeRoy Swenson  
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 More options May 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: LeRoy Swenson <leroy...@cut.net>
Date: 1999/05/10
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Amen  I have purchased several of their CD-ROMs and found them worthless


 
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Paul Burchfield  
View profile  
 More options May 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Paul Burchfield" <paul_burchfi...@broder.com>
Date: 1999/05/10
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
That's certainly something that can happen. In fact, it is something that
can happen to any type of resources you come across. You may find books that
are worthless, to you, or newspaper articles that are worthless, to you. It
all depends on the type of data you come across and whether that data is
relevant to you.

That is why I stress that people should use the search tools we offer to
help qualify the CDs as being potentially beneficial before they are bought.
We know that even if you do your best to find a CD that contains a name of a
person for whom you are searching and that name appears on a CD whose data
type, time period and geographic location match that of the person for whom
you are searching that until you buy the CD and look at it, you won't know
for sure whether the data will be helpful. That's why we stand behind the
things we sell with a 90-day money-back guarantee.

--

Paul Burchfield, The Learning Company
Family Tree Maker FAQs, hints, tips and more at:
** http://www.familytreemaker.com/support.html
Free genealogy resources (message boards & more):
** http://www.genealogy.com/

LeRoy Swenson <leroy...@cut.net> wrote in message

news:37375EE0.E4E7805D@cut.net...


 
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guy.etchells@virgin.net  
View profile  
 More options May 10 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: guy.etche...@virgin.net (guy.etche...@virgin.net)
Date: 1999/05/10
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Not everybody has access to the internet or the web.
Cheers
Guy

--
Wakefield England

http://freespace.virgin.net/guy.etchells     Transcripts, Parish
Records, Calendar, Scaleable Map of Uk. Link to LDS website, Returns of
Owners of Lands etc. etc.
http://www.guye.freeserve.co.uk     Whitefield Transcripts, Etch/ells
Transcripts
http://gye.future.easyspace.com     Worldwide Cemetery Links, Monumental
Inscriptions, War Graves, etc.
http://homepage.virgin.net/wakefield.fhs   Wakefield FHS website,   War
Memorials

> I bought the so called "Deluxe Edition 3" which contains 9 cd's. I
> find it a real joke to include the social security death index on 2 of
> the 9 cd's when this database is free on the web and frequently
> updated.
> On Sun, 09 May 1999 09:28:16 -0700, Robertta Burns
>  wrote:

Message-ID: <3736A64D.3AE6137B@virgin.net>
Path:
magnet.at!newsfeed03.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.ecrc.net!o leane!news.rootsweb.com!rootsweb-gw
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Date: 10 May 1999 01:46:42 -0700
From: guy.etche...@virgin.net (Guy Etchells)
Organization: RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Lines: 28
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy

 
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Paul D. Peterson  
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 More options May 11 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Paul D. Peterson" <pdp1...@redconnect.net>
Date: 1999/05/11
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
I bought the Family Tree Maker in January with 11 cds and paid about $75.
for it.  Shortly after purchasing it and registering it, I started receiving
information on an upgrade from the company, of course for an additional fee.
In the meantime, I went to a computer show and found the same version I
purchased for about $50, with the 11 cds and all.  Interestingly, a
representative from Parsons tried to sell me this version in December for
$89. and said it would no longer be available after the first of the year
and that Parsons would be recalling their stock from the retailers during
the first part of 1999.

I am not really excited about the program and find Parson's other and much
less expensive Family Origins an easier program to work with and the upgrade
quite reasonable. As for the CD's the information which I wanted was
supposed to be on CD's which were not included in the package and would cost
additional $$$.  I think FTM is interested in making as much money as they
can as quickly as they can and if you get stuck buying it, you are out of
luck!

Paul

Robertta Burns <rjbur...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:3735B79F.EBC20A24@mindspring.com...


 
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Dot Roots  
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 More options May 11 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Dot Roots" <dotr...@camalott.com>
Date: 1999/05/11
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
The good thing about FTM CDs they can be returned within 90 days for a
full refund. I returned 2 CDs and my account was credited in about a
week.. They even include mailing lables to return the CDs.
Dorothy
Paul Burchfield <paul_burchfi...@broder.com> wrote in message

news:gkJZ2.328$%j4.1046@news.rdc1.sfba.home.com...
| That's certainly something that can happen. In fact, it is something
that
| can happen to any type of resources you come across. You may find
books that
| are worthless, to you, or newspaper articles that are worthless, to
you. It
| all depends on the type of data you come across and whether that data
is
| relevant to you.
|
| That is why I stress that people should use the search tools we offer
to
| help qualify the CDs as being potentially beneficial before they are
bought.
| We know that even if you do your best to find a CD that contains a
name of a
| person for whom you are searching and that name appears on a CD whose
data
| type, time period and geographic location match that of the person for
whom
| you are searching that until you buy the CD and look at it, you won't
know
| for sure whether the data will be helpful. That's why we stand behind
the
| things we sell with a 90-day money-back guarantee.
|
| --
|
| Paul Burchfield, The Learning Company
| Family Tree Maker FAQs, hints, tips and more at:
| ** http://www.familytreemaker.com/support.html
| Free genealogy resources (message boards & more):
| ** http://www.genealogy.com/
|
|
| LeRoy Swenson <leroy...@cut.net> wrote in message
| news:37375EE0.E4E7805D@cut.net...
| > Amen  I have purchased several of their CD-ROMs and found them
worthless
| >
| > Robertta Burns wrote:
| >
| > > We have been using Family Tree Maker for several years. I like the
| program
| > > but find the extra disks of limited value. The most recent set I
paid
| over
| > > $70 dollars and basically received lists. I can find more useful
| > > information over the internet or in libraries. Also now that it
has been
| > > sold they send you a free "magazine" which is mostly a sales
catolague.
| So
| > > use the program but see if you can review some of the disks
somewhere
| > > before paying for them.
| > > R Burns
| > >
| > > Rick Bratt wrote:
| > >
| > > > Still looking for the best software value before I commit to
entering
| > > > tons of data. $ is not really the object here. Is there anyone
who can
| > > > sing the praises of FTM? Does one really gain any value from a
15 disk
| > > > set. Are there that many leads to be had in it. If this has been
| hashed
| > > > and rehashed, forgive me I'm pretty new to this.
| > > > Thanks and Aloha
| >
|

 
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Jim Cox  
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 More options May 13 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: Jim Cox <j...@mis.net>
Date: 1999/05/13
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Well, I've been using FTM for about 10 months and really like it.  I
have been disappointed with some of the disks and would not have taken
all of the disks in a bundle.  I too, have come across better deals
right after having made a purchase.  That is, in FTM software, other
kinds of software, hardware, etc.

I have found a lot of useful information on almost all the disks.  I
would do away with the SSN indexes; the numbers weren't introduced until
about 1935.  Some members of my family never did get one.  I have found
a lot of useful info on FTM web page, however I hate all the
duplication.

I was also under the impression that only the complete bundles could be
returned, not individual disks.

Jim  


 
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Paul Burchfield  
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 More options May 14 1999, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
From: "Paul Burchfield" <paul_burchfi...@broder.com>
Date: 1999/05/14
Subject: Re: Family Tree Maker
Jim,

That depends on what you bought. If you bought a bundle, then you would
return the whole bundle, not individual pieces from it. If you bought a
single CD, then you wold return that individual CD.

--

Paul Burchfield, The Learning Company
Family Tree Maker FAQs, hints, tips and more at:
** http://www.familytreemaker.com/support.html
Free genealogy resources (message boards & more):
** http://www.genealogy.com/

Jim Cox <j...@mis.net> wrote in message news:373B651D.417C@mis.net...

<snip>
> I was also under the impression that only the complete bundles could be
> returned, not individual disks.

> Jim

<snip>

 
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