lightsabers and dreamspeakers
Kintaro Oe
what if he looooved Star Wars? and spent time chatting with his SoE
pal?
what's to stop him?
nothing. Sure he has a spiritual paradigm, but why can't he use some
technology as well? He lives in the modern world, he can't deny that
machines function. The line between shaman and technoshaman is thin
*sigh*
kabael Amida Guddha, Boddhisatva of the Creeping
whose likeness has suddenly and inexplicably appeared as an oil painting on display in the middle of Boston...
Mcguffin Group -
http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/
I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kab...@bu.edu
LordSchmit
Who said they can't?
>what if he looooved Star Wars? and spent time chatting with his SoE
>pal?
So what if he did?
>what's to stop him?
What's to make him?
>nothing. Sure he has a spiritual paradigm, but why can't he use some
>technology as well? He lives in the modern world, he can't deny that
>machines function. The line between shaman and technoshaman is thin
Who are you trying to justify this to? Are you looking for permission to have
you Dreamspeaker make a lightsaber?
>*sigh*
Oh, stop sighing.
LordSchmit
The Lord of all the Schmits!! HA HA HA!!
Kintaro Oe
>
>Who said they can't?
it was something that was brought up in the oh-so-long discussion on
Sphere use.
>>what's to stop him?
>
>What's to make him?
let's find the beginning of this circle, hmm?
>
>>nothing. Sure he has a spiritual paradigm, but why can't he use some
>>technology as well? He lives in the modern world, he can't deny that
>>machines function. The line between shaman and technoshaman is thin
>
>Who are you trying to justify this to? Are you looking for permission to have
>you Dreamspeaker make a lightsaber?
no. I am branching off from another discussion. Why would I be asking
permission of usenet for anything?
>
>>*sigh*
>
>Oh, stop sighing.
why? I felt all sigh-y
blak...@technologist.com
> pal?
>
>
> technology as well? He lives in the modern world, he can't deny that
> machines function. The line between shaman and technoshaman is thin
In BoW, there's a realm based on Hollywood, where actors and characters
from film have spiritual manifestations. A Dreamspeaker could journey
to that realm and study at the feet of Obi Wan Kenobi and Atakin
Skywalker.
--
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/
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Kintaro Oe
>from film have spiritual manifestations. A Dreamspeaker could journey
>to that realm and study at the feet of Obi Wan Kenobi and Atakin
>Skywalker.
suddenly I'm getting flashbacks to Quentin Tarentino's (sp?) Star
Wars.
someone did a remake with QT-esque dialogue and blocking. Veeeeery
funny. almost as good as TROOPS! : )
The Fool!
>
> >why can't a dreamspeaker create a lightsaber?
>
There was a light saber floating around in a V:tM game (live action) I
was playing awhile back. Actually, it wasn't floating very much. It
was held onto rather tightly by a somewhat psychotic Assimite with a
remarkably bad attitude. Masquerade to the wind, he was plying it
about vigorously in the middle of downtown...mostly against my Malks.
(I think he was a bit phobic about Malks. ;) Maybe he was jealous?)
The saber itself did a fascinating amount of damage, most of it
aggravated (burn damage and all). It was pretty unbalancing to the
whole game, as this guy was an Original Hothead(tm) and went about
enforcing "Peace through superior fire-power". Oh well. The game was a
bit out of control anyway, being that the ST was also the most
powerful being in the game (The Prince).
Maybe (hopefully) you've got better player's in your game, but even
so, if you allow such a thing how do you keep such a weapon from
becoming an incredible force of destruction? It's pretty tempting
isn't it? "What'd you say to me?!?" *ZHZHZHZZ*
~The Fool~
Kintaro Oe
>so, if you allow such a thing how do you keep such a weapon from
>becoming an incredible force of destruction? It's pretty tempting
>isn't it? "What'd you say to me?!?" *ZHZHZHZZ*
well if a mage were to create a lightsaber, they'd have to deal with
Talisman creation rules, and Paradox, and spheres, etc. so it wouldn't
be totally unbalancing.
Matthew Alexander
>>In BoW, there's a realm based on Hollywood, where actors and characters
>>from film have spiritual manifestations. A Dreamspeaker could journey
>>to that realm and study at the feet of Obi Wan Kenobi and Atakin
>>Skywalker.
While there's no reason a DS couldn't have a lightsaber, it seems less
appropriate than, say, a Spirit blade, or something like that. What
exactly are the stats for this weapon, anyway?
>suddenly I'm getting flashbacks to Quentin Tarentino's (sp?) Star
>Wars.
Samuel L Jackson plays Mace Windu in the new prequels... Here's the
top ten lines people would like to hear:
10. You don't need to see my goddamn identification, 'cause these
ain't the motherfuckin' droids you're looking for.
9. Womp rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'll never know, 'cause
even if it did I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfucker.
8. This is your father's lightsaber. When you absolutely, positively,
have to kill every motherfuckin' stormtrooper in the room...
accept no substitutes.
7. If Obi-wan ain't home then I don't know what the fuck we're gonna
do. I ain't got no other connections on Tattooine.
6. Feel the Force, motherfucker!
5. "What!?" ain't no planet I've ever heard of!
Do they speak Bocce on What?
4. You sendin' the Fett? Shit, Hutt, that's all you had to say!
3. Yeah Chewie's got a hair problem. What the brother gonna do? He's a
Wookie.
2. Does Jabba the Hutt look like a bitch?
1. Hand me my lightsaber...yeah, it's the one that says, 'One Bad
Mother Fucker.'
-><- Matt Alexander
"Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water!
And East is East and West is West and if you take cranberries and stew
them like applesauce they taste more like prunes than a rhubarb does.
Now, uh.. Now you tell me what you know." -Marx*
rne...@olimpo.com.br
Because his paradigm doesn't accept lightsabers... unless he's a very freaky
Dreamspeaker.
>
> what if he looooved Star Wars? and spent time chatting with his SoE
> pal?
A Dreamspeaker's paradigm doesn't allow TV sets either. ;)
>
> what's to stop him?
>
> nothing. Sure he has a spiritual paradigm, but why can't he use some
> technology as well?
Because he has a spiritual paradigm. Unless he's a technoshaman (a la
Shadowrun et. al.), he won't want to do with any technology at all. Not to
mention that lightsabers aren't exactly *just* technology - they're absurdly
advanced technology, out of paradigm even for the Technocracy, let alone for
a regular Dreamspeaker.
He lives in the modern world, he can't deny that
> machines function.
Oh yes, he can. The whole point of Mage is to enforce your personal reality
over others'. At best, a Disciple might think the artifact to be a strange
fetish, and use "spiritual" rituals and techniques as his foci for dealing
with, say, Forces or Matter magick required for the lightsaber. As one
advances on the Path of Enlightenment, however, not even that will be
appropriate. More likely circumstances include technological apparatus
ceasing to function or even breaking down _whenever_ the mage is around. A
Dreamspeaker Master or Oracle may even cause the local paradigm to completely
cease accepting technology, causing "trails" of destruction wherever they go.
The line between shaman and technoshaman is thin
>
> *sigh*
*oof*
>
> kabael Amida Guddha, Boddhisatva of the Creeping
>
> whose likeness has suddenly and inexplicably appeared as an oil painting on display in the middle of Boston...
That's odd. Maybe you're a mage and don't know it.
>
> Mcguffin Group -
> http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/
>
> I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kab...@bu.edu
I hate messages, but I'll take them anyway. :) rne...@olimpo.com.br
>
>
Peace,
--
Kaufmann
Thrythlind
technocracy that the more enlightened mages would object to, but their
methods...of course the majority of Dreamspeakers and other Tradition mages
wouldn't be able to tell the difference...I have a Verbena FBI agent myself...a
gaian wouldn't be upset with technology that fit in well with the
environment...Verbena wouldn't mind any tech as long as it doesn't interfere
with living life as vigorously as they believe it should be...The first edition
Mage book's intro story has an Akashic with a computer...the Ascension's Right
Hand describes a Dreamspeaker Consor who sees the future in television
static...and so on...
Kintaro Oe
>> technology as well?
>
>Because he has a spiritual paradigm. Unless he's a technoshaman (a la
>Shadowrun et. al.), he won't want to do with any technology at all. Not to
>mention that lightsabers aren't exactly *just* technology - they're absurdly
>advanced technology, out of paradigm even for the Technocracy, let alone for
>a regular Dreamspeaker.
the Dreamspeaker see technology every day. He sees the Technocrats
(VAs and SoEs included) use it. He sees it work. His paradigm _must
explain it to be consistent and believable - hence workable_.
>
>He lives in the modern world, he can't deny that
>> machines function.
>
>Oh yes, he can. The whole point of Mage is to enforce your personal reality
no he can't. He sees them work. He feels them work. Deny that the car
went down the road. You can talk of spirits and what-not, but you
still must explain it.
>over others'. At best, a Disciple might think the artifact to be a strange
>fetish, and use "spiritual" rituals and techniques as his foci for dealing
>with, say, Forces or Matter magick required for the lightsaber. As one
which would require him to admit it functions. You can't explain how
something works and deny its ability to work at the same time.
>advances on the Path of Enlightenment, however, not even that will be
>appropriate. More likely circumstances include technological apparatus
>ceasing to function or even breaking down _whenever_ the mage is around. A
??? wtf? Why would this happen? Exactly what in *any* paradigm says
that technology cannot function? Techn certainly worked when Europeans
went off and conquered the world.
>Dreamspeaker Master or Oracle may even cause the local paradigm to completely
>cease accepting technology, causing "trails" of destruction wherever they go.
>
only if they completely denied the existance of technology, and then
they'd be getting into Marauder territory there
>> *sigh*
>
>*oof*
*blah*
>> whose likeness has suddenly and inexplicably appeared as an oil painting on display in the middle of Boston...
>
>That's odd. Maybe you're a mage and don't know it.
maybe, except it seems that that particular paradox flaw has run it's
course and disappeared : )
>> I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kab...@bu.edu
>
>I hate messages, but I'll take them anyway. :) rne...@olimpo.com.br
aw, c'mon. You gotta love random messages! they rock!
kabael Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping
whose likeness has suddenly and inexplicably appeared as an oil painting on display in the middle of Boston...
Mcguffin Group -
David Johnston
>
> >> nothing. Sure he has a spiritual paradigm, but why can't he use some
> >> technology as well?
> >
> >Because he has a spiritual paradigm. Unless he's a technoshaman (a la
> >Shadowrun et. al.), he won't want to do with any technology at all. Not to
> >mention that lightsabers aren't exactly *just* technology - they're absurdly
> >advanced technology, out of paradigm even for the Technocracy, let alone for
> >a regular Dreamspeaker.
>
> the Dreamspeaker see technology every day. He sees the Technocrats
> (VAs and SoEs included) use it. He sees it work. His paradigm _must
> explain it to be consistent and believable - hence workable_.
Of course I have to wonder why a light sabre must needs be technological
in the first place. I mean what the guy wanted was a glowing sword blade that
cut through things real good, right?
It's true that most Dreamspeakers wouldn't use a forcefield projector
as a focus...although he might very well use a Technomantic Device if he
felt like it. Some wouldn't but it's very difficult to generalise about
such a disorganised and eclectic lot as the Dreamspeakers.
However, paradigm has more to do do with how you create the effect than what
the effect is. I can easily imagine an Hermetic or a CC conjuring a blade of
solid light onto a sword hilt. A bit more of a stretch for D.S.s or Verbena
just because they're less into swords for the most part.
NoirRose
>Kintaro Oe wrote:
>Of course I have to wonder why a light sabre must needs be technological
>in the first place. I mean what the guy wanted was a glowing sword blade that
>cut through things real good, right?
>
>It's true that most Dreamspeakers wouldn't use a forcefield projector
>as a focus...although he might very well use a Technomantic Device if he
>felt like it. Some wouldn't but it's very difficult to generalise about
>such a disorganised and eclectic lot as the Dreamspeakers.
>
>However, paradigm has more to do do with how you create the effect than what
>the effect is. I can easily imagine an Hermetic or a CC conjuring a blade of
>solid light onto a sword hilt. A bit more of a stretch for D.S.s or Verbena
>just because they're less into swords for the most part.
I will point out one thing about a lightsaber that seems to have
been ignored so far...The lightsaber blade, being pure light, has no mass, no
weight, and no heft. The *only* way to know where the blade of a lightsaber
is is using the Force. Given that, how does your average Dreamspeaker tell
where the blade of his lightsaber is? I don't think any of the normal Spheres
would let him know where it is at all times...The entire reason only Jedi
use lightsabers is that only Jedi can use them without cutting off limbs.
And personally, I'd give my bet to the SoE making a lightsaber, rather
than the Dreamspeakers. It's more their style.
NoirRose...Never, ever, ever let two physics majors play SoE in a LARP. NEVER!
--
******************************************************
*************Touch not, come no closer...*************
******Dark petals cloak dark secrets, pain unseen*****
***********Would you choose the Black Rose?***********
*******Beware...dark thorns draw heart's blood.*******
******************************************************
Namrael3
>>the effect is. I can easily imagine an Hermetic or a CC conjuring a blade
>of
>>solid light onto a sword hilt. A bit more of a stretch for D.S.s or Verbena
>>just because they're less into swords for the most part.
>
> I will point out one thing about a lightsaber that seems to have
>been ignored so far...The lightsaber blade, being pure light, has no mass, no
>weight, and no heft. The *only* way to know where the blade of a lightsaber
>is is using the Force. Given that, how does your average Dreamspeaker tell
>where the blade of his lightsaber is? I don't think any of the normal Spheres
>would let him know where it is at all times...The entire reason only Jedi
>use lightsabers is that only Jedi can use them without cutting off limbs.
>
matter, perhaps? just wondering.
as for knowing where the "blade" is: correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the
blade turned off when it's not in use? and when it's on, it glows and makes
bug zapper noises, so it's easy to keep track of.
> And personally, I'd give my bet to the SoE making a lightsaber,
>rather
> than the Dreamspeakers. It's more their style.
>
definitely a son of ether.
jenny
"We could take out all the small children so she doesn't have any more
sacrificial victims."
-Michael, Euthanatos
SkywayTow
Arete 7
Spheres:
Spirit 3 (If the player wants to add forces 3 for extra damage, he's welcome
to)
Damage: 4Agg (6Agg with Forces)
The Buffalo sword looks like, for all intents and purposes, a broken rib
from a Buffalo. The bit of bone is usually six to eight inches long, almost
always very old.
When the Talisman is activated, there is a bright flash of light as the
pain of the buffalo is focused into a blade shaped like the rib.
* Check 47 USC( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.shtml ). You
spam, you pay up to 500$ US.
* Hi! I'm a .sig virus! Join the fun and copy me into yours! :)
"Do these pants make my butt look big?" ~S. Claus
Thrythlind
>>>However, paradigm has more to do do with how you create the effect than
>what
>>>the effect is. I can easily imagine an Hermetic or a CC conjuring a blade
>>of
>>>solid light onto a sword hilt. A bit more of a stretch for D.S.s or
>Verbena
>>>just because they're less into swords for the most part.
>>
>> I will point out one thing about a lightsaber that seems to have
>>been ignored so far...The lightsaber blade, being pure light, has no mass,
>no
>>weight, and no heft. The *only* way to know where the blade of a lightsaber
>>is is using the Force. Given that, how does your average Dreamspeaker tell
>>where the blade of his lightsaber is? I don't think any of the normal
>Spheres
>>would let him know where it is at all times...The entire reason only Jedi
>>use lightsabers is that only Jedi can use them without cutting off limbs.
>>
>what spheres other than forces would be needed to create a light sabre?
>matter, perhaps? just wondering.
>
>as for knowing where the "blade" is: correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the
>blade turned off when it's not in use? and when it's on, it glows and makes
>bug zapper noises, so it's easy to keep track of.
A) "The Force" is basically the interconnections of all things in existence,
sounds like the Weave to me, so Prime would probably a good way to tell where
it is. Dreamspeakers are the closest to the Jedi of all the traditions, if you
were too carry over the Jedi they'd by offshoots of the Dreamspeakers,
influenced by theVirtual Adepts, (the tech of the Jedi is a little to practical
to be Son of Ether and too personal to be Technomancer).
B) Jenny, you have obviously never used a blade before. You can't judge just
by sight, you have to watch your opponent, not your weapon...I can't use
amtgardian daggers because the combined weight of the pipe and padding comes to
about two pounds...about the weight of the average light-saber rod.
David Johnston
>
> Buffalo Sword (level 4 / 5 talisman)
> Arete 7
> Spheres:
> Spirit 3 (If the player wants to add forces 3 for extra damage, he's welcome
> to)
> Damage: 4Agg (6Agg with Forces)
>
> The Buffalo sword looks like, for all intents and purposes, a broken rib
> from a Buffalo. The bit of bone is usually six to eight inches long, almost
> always very old.
> When the Talisman is activated, there is a bright flash of light as the
> pain of the buffalo is focused into a blade shaped like the rib.
You know, that's amazingly like Inu-Yasha's sword. (From the Takahashi
comic book.)
David Johnston
Actually...no. They're more like a oriental offshoot of the CC,
or just Akashics plain and simple.
> were too carry over the Jedi they'd by offshoots of the Dreamspeakers,
> influenced by theVirtual Adepts, (the tech of the Jedi is a little to practical
> to be Son of Ether and too personal to be Technomancer).
Solid light swords are _not_ a practical idea. And remember, the
SOEs also invented cold fusion and part of quantum physics.
Eric Tolle
> However, paradigm has more to do do with how you create the effect than what
> the effect is. I can easily imagine an Hermetic or a CC conjuring a blade of
> solid light onto a sword hilt. A bit more of a stretch for D.S.s or Verbena
> just because they're less into swords for the most part.
Verbena do like daggers however. So A Verbena coats the hilt of a ritual dagger
with her blood, and uses it to call down the essence of lightning in the shape of a
sword. The Dreamspeaker calls on the essence of a Lune to form a sword. In both
cases, Forces 3 Prime 2 should handle it quite nicely.
Heck, a lightsaber beam even looks like what I'd imagine a Lune to look like..
--
Eric Tolle
sch...@silcom.com
"I have a vision of some galactic museum of the distant future in which diet
Coke cans will share with mail coats a single small vitrine marked "Planet
Earth, 1000-2000, Christian Era."- F. Fernandez-Armesto: "Millennium"
Thrythlind
Every see the Final Fantasy animes?
I've periodically been yelling "I call upon the power of Pretz's sword!" while
wielding my Amtgardian No-Daichi
(for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, the main character
Pretz has a no-daichi that appears, disappears and seemsss to alter the fabric
of reality regularly through the entire two tapes)
Thrythlind
>David Johnston wrote:
>
>> However, paradigm has more to do do with how you create the effect than
>what
>> the effect is. I can easily imagine an Hermetic or a CC conjuring a blade
>of
>> solid light onto a sword hilt. A bit more of a stretch for D.S.s or
>Verbena
>> just because they're less into swords for the most part.
>
>Verbena do like daggers however. So A Verbena coats the hilt of a ritual
>dagger
>with her blood, and uses it to call down the essence of lightning in the
>shape of a
>sword. The Dreamspeaker calls on the essence of a Lune to form a sword. In
>both
>cases, Forces 3 Prime 2 should handle it quite nicely.
>
>Heck, a lightsaber beam even looks like what I'd imagine a Lune to look
>like..
I'm sure the Verbena, with all the Celtic flavor they're given, have their
share of warriors...
blak...@technologist.com
noir...@eznet.net (NoirRose) wrote:
> I will point out one thing about a lightsaber that seems to have
> been ignored so far...The lightsaber blade, being pure light, has no mass, no
> weight, and no heft. The *only* way to know where the blade of a lightsaber
> is is using the Force. Given that, how does your average Dreamspeaker tell
> where the blade of his lightsaber is? I don't think any of the normal Spheres
> would let him know where it is at all times...The entire reason only Jedi
> use lightsabers is that only Jedi can use them without cutting off limbs.
Corr 1 would take care of that. (You know exactly where the lightsaber is
at all times)
Corr 1, Forces 1, Life 1, Entropy 1 for the extremely exacting (You know
exactly where the forces-blade of the lightsaber is at all times, and where
it's going, in relation to your body, and whether any particular move would
put you in danger of hitting yourself).
> And personally, I'd give my bet to the SoE making a lightsaber, rather
> than the Dreamspeakers. It's more their style.
There's, like, three write-ups of Jehdi-as-magi on BJ Zanzibar's alone...
They really seem like a blend of A/K and SoE to me...
(mostly the former)
--
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/
|
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blak...@technologist.com
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Thrythlind wrote:
> > A) "The Force" is basically the interconnections of all things in existence,
> > sounds like the Weave to me, so Prime would probably a good way to tell
where
> > it is. Dreamspeakers are the closest to the Jedi of all the traditions, if
you
>
> Actually...no. They're more like a oriental offshoot of the CC,
> or just Akashics plain and simple.
Very Akashic, yes, what with all those kendo moves and whatnot. Since
the Force isn't really sub-divided into individual, consciuos, non-physical
entities that you can petition for aid, it hardly seems dreamsperish at
all.
> > were too carry over the Jedi they'd by offshoots of the Dreamspeakers,
> > influenced by theVirtual Adepts, (the tech of the Jedi is a little to
practical
> > to be Son of Ether and too personal to be Technomancer).
>
> Solid light swords are _not_ a practical idea. And remember, the
> SOEs also invented cold fusion and part of quantum physics.
More utilitarian then. Though I have met an SoE armed with a lightsaber,
the simple cromed tube design doesn't really fit the SoE ideal...
I'd expect an SoD-made lightsaber to be a largish afair of burnished
brass and iron, and insulative ceramics, looking like a cross between
a tesla coil and the ornate basket-hilt of a renaisance rapier.
Thrythlind
> David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>> Thrythlind wrote:
>> > A) "The Force" is basically the interconnections of all things in
>existence,
>> > sounds like the Weave to me, so Prime would probably a good way to tell
>where
>> > it is. Dreamspeakers are the closest to the Jedi of all the traditions,
>if
>you
>>
>> Actually...no. They're more like a oriental offshoot of the CC,
>> or just Akashics plain and simple.
>
>Very Akashic, yes, what with all those kendo moves and whatnot. Since
>the Force isn't really sub-divided into individual, consciuos, non-physical
>entities that you can petition for aid, it hardly seems dreamsperish at
>all.
I would have said Celestial Chorus but the Jedi don't seek to be become part of
the universe or reunite the universe as the CC would say. They have all this
talk about the interconnections of all things in the universe, sounds more like
the gaia theory applied to the universe than anything the CC would come up
with. I will admit they sound a lot like Akashics as well, and they could be
either.
The Saint of Killers
> I will point out one thing about a lightsaber that seems to have
> been ignored so far...The lightsaber blade, being pure light, has no mass, no
> weight, and no heft. The *only* way to know where the blade of a lightsaber
> is is using the Force. Given that, how does your average Dreamspeaker tell
> where the blade of his lightsaber is?
Uh. Well, that big freakin' glowing pillar of color is a good start.
SoK
Thrythlind
>
>SoK
Yet another individual who has never actually used a blade.
Again, try fighting with a blade that you can't feel, it sucks.....you die
quickly...and in sparring you stand a real chance of actually hurting the
person your sparring with because you contact with fist rather than the padded
blade.
You must be able to feel the blade at all times, not see it...even a mediocre
warrior like me can tell where the point of his blade is most of the time, and
I know when it strikes something...you can usually tell where on the blade you
contacted.
The lightsaber lacks one key trait that allows a traditional sword to send
information to its wielder....mass.
A traditional blade will twist its hilt about when it hits something, and the
wielder can translate the twists into information on the blades position....air
will flow differently around a blade, allowing a wielder to tell something
about where the blade is...gravity will affect the blade as well, and the
normal trained mottions will reflect that...a skilled swordsman will not
accidently cut himself in two because he will feel the blade twisting back into
him...
A traditional swordsman attempting to use a lightsaber would find himself off
target by inches, overextended, confused and having to spend too much time
watching his own blade to be able to read his opponent's moves...by the same
token a lightsaber trained-jedi (and it would be possible to train without any
supernatural senses, just more difficult) would find the traditional sword
sluggish and ineffective...both would be able to do things that the other
couldn't....as the presence of mass would allow certain gravity dependent
tricks that the lightsaber couldn't perform...the lightsaber is still a much
better weapon...
AJSolis
>The lightsaber lacks one key trait that allows a traditional sword to send
>information to its wielder....mass.
>
training, which should help with not accidentally turning oneself into a human
torso.
watc...@no.more.spam.iki.fi
>More utilitarian then. Though I have met an SoE armed with a lightsaber,
>the simple cromed tube design doesn't really fit the SoE ideal...
>
>I'd expect an SoD-made lightsaber to be a largish afair of burnished
>brass and iron, and insulative ceramics, looking like a cross between
>a tesla coil and the ornate basket-hilt of a renaisance rapier.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily expect that. Not all of the Sons of
Ether go for the Victorian look -- not that I mind it when they do. Some
do weird stuff with more modern materials. For example, in one of our
games there was this SoE whose foci always ended up looking like polished
chrome -- in all shapes and forms, and usually very scarce in openings. No
seams or bolts or sharp angles anywhere, either; most of his devices
looked like balls or eggs or other similarly shaped roundish objects.
INSIDE, though, it was another thing entirely. What a mess. He
wasn't very neat, but he liked the exterior to be smooth and simple.
- Mikki
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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- watc...@iki.fi -- Flush out the excess humanity." - JTHM ------------
- WatchMan @ IRC ----------------------- http://www.iki.fi/~watchman/ -
---------------------------------------------------------------------
watc...@no.more.spam.iki.fi
>NoirRose wrote:
>> I will point out one thing about a lightsaber that seems to have
>> been ignored so far...The lightsaber blade, being pure light, has no mass, no
>> weight, and no heft. The *only* way to know where the blade of a lightsaber
>> is is using the Force. Given that, how does your average Dreamspeaker tell
>> where the blade of his lightsaber is?
Yes, well, but it's not quite that simple. An example: If you are
playing tennis, you can be damn sure that you aren't staring at the racket
all the time, because you also need to keep your eyes on the ball, and the
tennis court, and glancing at your opponent every once in a while is a
good move, too.
Now, if the racket was completely weightless and swinging it
offered no resistance whatsoever, chances are that you would hit yourself
with it from time to time, simply because your attention was elsewhere.
Even if the racket glowed and hummed, it'd still be outside your field of
vision, and you'd end up whapping yourself with it.
Now, doing that with something that can slice off a limb would be
bad. What's more, even if you could keep from hurting yourself, there's
still other people and property damage to consider...
Donald Bachman
pretty good job with purely visual cues, otherwise catching baseballs,
hitting volleyballs, and shooting would be pretty ineffective, nevermind
the targetting information the Force gives you. Does nobody remember the
scene where Luke is being zapped by a training drone while fighting blind?
Donald
Patrick Baldwin
Thrythlind <thryt...@aol.com> wrote:
>Donald Bachman wrote:
>>Not to deny the importance of weapon mass in targetting, but people do a
>>pretty good job with purely visual cues, otherwise catching baseballs,
>>hitting volleyballs, and shooting would be pretty ineffective
>Do you watch your hand when you catch the baseball, or hit the volley ball, no
>you watch the ball....the ball is the target, the analog to an opponent, the
>hand would be the analog to the blade. The point to sword fighting is that you
>watch the target not yourself, you can feel where your blade and body are
<SNIP>
Right. The point to sword fighting. Not really the same thing as lightsaber
fighting, by your own logic. It's like trying to say you'll never hit
anything with a gun because you can't feel where the mass of the bullet
is, something Donald seems to have hit upon, at least a bit. A lightsaber
looks kinda like a sword, but it would be an entirely different style
of fighting. Someone trained with a regular sword would have a tricky
time with a lightsaber, at least to start, but someone trained with a
lightsaber would likely be just fine. Without super-human sensory
ability though, I'd say the initial training period with lightsabers
would probably leav most people with a few more scars, a few less limbs,
or a lot less life, or some combination:)
BTW, Thrythlind, you might want to try replying underneath quoted
material, and including attributions, it makes it a bit easier to
follow who said what and the flow of the conversation, particularly
when threads get long.
-P. Baldwin
Thrythlind
you watch the ball....the ball is the target, the analog to an opponent, the
hand would be the analog to the blade. The point to sword fighting is that you
watch the target not yourself, you can feel where your blade and body
>Not to deny the importance of weapon mass in targetting, but people do a
>pretty good job with purely visual cues, otherwise catching baseballs,
Kintaro Oe
>been ignored so far...The lightsaber blade, being pure light, has no mass, no
>weight, and no heft. The *only* way to know where the blade of a lightsaber
>is is using the Force. Given that, how does your average Dreamspeaker tell
or looking at it. : ) It would just take some training, since it would
be different to wield than a normal, weighted sword. It's the
_training_ that would take limbs.
>where the blade of his lightsaber is? I don't think any of the normal Spheres
>would let him know where it is at all times...The entire reason only Jedi
>use lightsabers is that only Jedi can use them without cutting off limbs.
could you explain why the Dreamspeaker couldn't use Forces to tell
where it is? I don't follow your logic, you seem to imply that a
Dreamspeaker _wouldn't_ have Forces, which is silly.
>
> And personally, I'd give my bet to the SoE making a lightsaber, rather
> than the Dreamspeakers. It's more their style.
or a VA.
>
> NoirRose...Never, ever, ever let two physics majors play SoE in a LARP. NEVER!
hmm, that could be fun, I haven't argued implausable theories in a
long time...
Kintaro Oe
>matter, perhaps? just wondering.
>
depends on _how_ you build it. If you're just using the hilt as a
focus, only Forces would be needed. To create something that actually
_does_ the lightsaber thing, didn't it need some odd-ass crystal
thing? Add Matter. For a talisman that does the neat effect, drop
Matter and add Prime.
pretty straitforward, I should think. : )
>as for knowing where the "blade" is: correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the
>blade turned off when it's not in use? and when it's on, it glows and makes
>bug zapper noises, so it's easy to keep track of.
yeah, but it is completely different to wield, as it has no weight,
and so it's hard to keep track or when you're not looking at it. It's
the training that would take limbs, not the battle
Kintaro Oe
>sounds like the Weave to me, so Prime would probably a good way to tell where
In Mage terms, I would say that the Force is just a word for _all_ the
Spheres and especially quintessence, in a way. Mind is the Jedi
bending the Force towards the "weak will" while Forces is the Jedi
calling upon the Dark Side to shoot spiffy lightning bolts. Prime
would be reaching into the Force itself, getting into the raw
creation.
>it is. Dreamspeakers are the closest to the Jedi of all the traditions, if you
>were too carry over the Jedi they'd by offshoots of the Dreamspeakers,
>influenced by theVirtual Adepts, (the tech of the Jedi is a little to practical
>to be Son of Ether and too personal to be Technomancer).
I'd go with Verbena or the Hermetics, myself. They are only
superficially in common with the Dreamspeaker shamans. It is the
_Jedi_ that guides the Force, not the spirits.
although, as someone else said, the idea of "Do" is similar to the
Force. The Jedi could very easily be a Westernized version of the
Akashics, from the culture-clash of the First Council. I like that
idea
>
>B) Jenny, you have obviously never used a blade before. You can't judge just
>by sight, you have to watch your opponent, not your weapon...I can't use
>amtgardian daggers because the combined weight of the pipe and padding comes to
>about two pounds...about the weight of the average light-saber rod.
well, you could train yourself to watch the blade, although it would
make combat more difficult. As I've said before, it's the training
that would be dangerous.
prei...@my-dejanews.com
> the Dreamspeaker see technology every day. He sees the Technocrats
> (VAs and SoEs included) use it. He sees it work. His paradigm _must
> explain it to be consistent and believable - hence workable_.
His paradigm must _explain_ it, but it need not _accept_ it. The most
obvious explanation is also simple: it's Technocratic magick. He can _use_
Technocratic "talismans" (ie. standard technology) just like everyone, but he
can't work his _own_ Technocratic magick since that isn't how his paradigm
sees things, just like a HITMark can't toss off a Hermetic incantation.
Short form: no lightsabres for you! (Buffalo Swords, yes, but no
lightsabres. The effects, of course, could be identical if the creator so
chose - magick is magick, regardless of how it's done.)
> ??? wtf? Why would this happen? Exactly what in *any* paradigm says
> that technology cannot function? Techn certainly worked when Europeans
> went off and conquered the world.
It worked, but it was Vulgar. Vulgar magick is stuff the local paradigm says
is impossible. Since technology was Vulgar in the conquest of the Americas,
the local paradigms must have said that technology of that level couldn't
function.
Technology is just a style of magick. No paradigm need accept it any more
than a paradigm need accept Hermetic magick.
OTOH, as for using a lightsabre, one wonders exactly _why_ a Dreamspeaker (or
anyone else, for that matter) would want to accumulate Paradox that fast...
-P
prei...@my-dejanews.com
> Yet another individual who has never actually used a blade.
Fortunately, a lightsabre ain't a blade, neh?
> Again, try fighting with a blade that you can't feel, it sucks.....you die
> quickly...and in sparring you stand a real chance of actually hurting the
> person your sparring with because you contact with fist rather than the padded
> blade.
That's fighting _without a weapon_, a far cry from a massless lightsabre. If
the lightsabre was invisible and had no effects on the enemy, you might have a
point, but then the sword wouldn't. ;)
If you want to try simulating a massless-"blade" lightsabre with no force
feedback, try sparring with _flashlights_ - if your light is on the other guy
and he's within, say, 3 feet of the flashlight, that's a hit. Although, you
may find such sparring a little less than stimulating...
This'll also demonstrate another point: with "standard" lightsabres,
there'll be 2 types of battles: 1) Lightsabre vs. lightsabre - these'll be a
lot like standard sword battles, complete with parrying. 2) Lightsabre vs.
anything else. These will be over _fast_. You can't parry a beam of light
and neither can it parry your sharp metal club, so once you're in range the
fight's going to be over in seconds.
> You must be able to feel the blade at all times, not see it...even a mediocre
> warrior like me can tell where the point of his blade is most of the time, and
A lightsabre sticks out from the top of my hand. I know where my hand is and
what direction it's pointing. I know where a point 3 feet out from the top of
my hand is. Thus, I know where the point of my lightsabre is. Really, all I
have to worry about is my hand.
Think of it another way: for either a lightsabre or a sword, all the
information you have is the pressure on your hand from the hilt. From this,
you discern where the hilt is pointing and the blade will be along that line.
Regardless of whether it's a normal sword or a lightsabre, all you have is
the hilt, and all you need is to keep track of what the hilt's doing.
> I know when it strikes something...you can usually tell where on the blade you
> contacted.
There's 2 types of lightsabres:
1) They transmit impact shock back to the wielder like a real sword. You can
tell where the contact came just as for a sword. Actually, these
parrying-lightsabres are a lot like a real sword, albeit much faster and it's
simpler to tell where the blade is based on the pressure your hand is feeling.
2) They pass right through objects (destroying them or not). Then it doesn't
matter where on the "blade" the hit was - it's not like one of these lets you
parry.
> The lightsaber lacks one key trait that allows a traditional sword to send
> information to its wielder....mass.
You don't need mass to have force feedback, just, say, Forces 2 or so... ;)
> A traditional blade will twist its hilt about when it hits something, and the
> wielder can translate the twists into information on the blades
>position....air will flow differently around a blade, allowing a wielder to
>tell something about where the blade is...gravity will affect the blade as
>well, and the normal trained mottions will reflect that...a skilled swordsman
>will not accidently cut himself in two because he will feel the blade twisting
>back into him...
You hold the lightsabre's hilt in your hand and it always projects straight
out from that hilt. Thus, you always know exactly where the "blade" is by
the position of the hilt in your hand. Also, if you've got any kind of grip
on it, it _won't_ twist and bounce back against you like a sword might. And,
unlike a metal sword, lightsabres are easy to keep a grip on because of the
greatly reduced worries about torque, angular momentum, and so on. It's the
melee version of a point-and-shoot weapon.
> token a lightsaber trained-jedi (and it would be possible to train without any
> supernatural senses, just more difficult)
Normal-senses training generally wouldn't be hard at all. Build a low-power
setting into the lightsabre that hurts but doesn't damage (much) and voila -
a training weapon. Once you're used to the freedom the point-and-click
nature of the weapon gives, you can crank the power back up.
Kintaro Oe
>> (VAs and SoEs included) use it. He sees it work. His paradigm _must
>> explain it to be consistent and believable - hence workable_.
>
>His paradigm must _explain_ it, but it need not _accept_ it. The most
>obvious explanation is also simple: it's Technocratic magick. He can _use_
>Technocratic "talismans" (ie. standard technology) just like everyone, but he
>can't work his _own_ Technocratic magick since that isn't how his paradigm
>sees things, just like a HITMark can't toss off a Hermetic incantation.
he still must acknowledge that it is 'legitimate', and he could learn
how to if he was so inclined.
>> ??? wtf? Why would this happen? Exactly what in *any* paradigm says
>> that technology cannot function? Techn certainly worked when Europeans
>> went off and conquered the world.
>
>It worked, but it was Vulgar. Vulgar magick is stuff the local paradigm says
>is impossible. Since technology was Vulgar in the conquest of the Americas,
>the local paradigms must have said that technology of that level couldn't
>function.
well, here is where I diverge from most accepted Mage Uberparadigm,
although some passages in the Book of Mirrors supports me.
Science is _right_. It is not magick, in the sense that it is not the
bending of reality. Atoms have always existed, and chemical reasctions
always worked, at any time. If a mage were to hop back in time and
take a nuke with him, it would work no matter when he went to.
IMHO, magick exists _above_ science, or maybe _beyond_ is a better
word. Neither wholely explains the universe. The Technocracy is trying
to _edit_ reality, not rewrite it. They may make minor additions, but
for the most part they are engaging in a pogrom against the mystic
threads still left
>
>Technology is just a style of magick. No paradigm need accept it any more
>than a paradigm need accept Hermetic magick.
Technology is a style of magick, but an inherently coincedental one.
It can also be the vessel for a more vulgar strain, but not often.
>
>
>OTOH, as for using a lightsabre, one wonders exactly _why_ a Dreamspeaker (or
>anyone else, for that matter) would want to accumulate Paradox that fast...
because they want an uberweapon with style? 'cause the like SW?
blak...@technologist.com
kab...@bu.edu (Kintaro Oe) wrote:
> >> the Dreamspeaker see technology every day. He sees the Technocrats
> >> (VAs and SoEs included) use it. He sees it work. His paradigm _must
> >> explain it to be consistent and believable - hence workable_.
> >
> >His paradigm must _explain_ it, but it need not _accept_ it. The most
> >obvious explanation is also simple: it's Technocratic magick.
>
> how to if he was so inclined.
In the sense that any magick you can get to work is 'legitimate' - there's
a big differnce in mage between mundane static technology, and the Techomancy
and Teknology of the Trads and Cons. The Dreamspeaker would have to explain
the static workings of mundane technology within his own paradigm - and,
could affect such technology directly using his magick. For instance, he
could see electronics as 'imprisoning' spirits in order to function, and could
cast Slay Machine or System Havok against an electrical device by
(paradigmatically) 'freeing the spirits cruely enslaved by it' (the spirits
then escaping in a shower of sparks and smoke) - it'd still be Enropy or
Forces, but he could do it.
> >> ??? wtf? Why would this happen? Exactly what in *any* paradigm says
> >> that technology cannot function? Techn certainly worked when Europeans
> >> went off and conquered the world.
> >
> >It worked, but it was Vulgar. Vulgar magick is stuff the local paradigm says
> >is impossible. Since technology was Vulgar in the conquest of the
Americas,
> >the local paradigms must have said that technology of that level couldn't
> >function.
>
> well, here is where I diverge from most accepted Mage Uberparadigm,
> although some passages in the Book of Mirrors supports me.
Not by too much, the WW party line (under Burcato, anyway) was that reality
had an objective baseline of some sort (the earth was always round for
instance). Originally, Mage reality was wholly subjective (the earth was
originally flat) and anything that apeared objective (gravity always seemed
to work, the seasons, night and day, phases of the moon, etc have always
continued) were really just common threads retained through a succession of
paradigms. Wonder what Jess will do with it...
> Science is _right_. It is not magick, in the sense that it is not the
> bending of reality. Atoms have always existed, and chemical reasctions
> always worked, at any time. If a mage were to hop back in time and
> take a nuke with him, it would work no matter when he went to.
>
> IMHO, magick exists _above_ science, or maybe _beyond_ is a better
> word. Neither wholely explains the universe. The Technocracy is trying
> to _edit_ reality, not rewrite it. They may make minor additions, but
> for the most part they are engaging in a pogrom against the mystic
> threads still left
Actually, what you're looking for is /uderlying/ rather than above or
beyond. What you're talking about is an objective reality - one in which
there are consistent, universal 'laws' by which all phenomena opperate.
The problem is you can't really take a comporomise position with this.
Reality can /be/ subjective and look objective at times, or it can /be/
objective and appear subjective, but, it can't /be/ both. In order to
place Mage in an objective reality, you need to come up with an objective
mechanism(s) to explain the how and why of all the magick that's being
worked by magi (and other supernaturals for that matter). You can't fall
back on magely 'subjective reality' to do it, because then reality becomes
wholly subjective (with some parts of it just being historically unchanged).
So far, I've seen many would-be Technocrats on this NG insist that Mage
reality must be Objective (or, more often, have 'objective elements' or an
'objective baseline' - which is the same thing). I think, once, someone
advanced a mechanism to allow for magick in an objective reality - and it
boiled down to choosing among an infinite variety of objective realities...
> >Technology is just a style of magick. No paradigm need accept it any more
> >than a paradigm need accept Hermetic magick.
>
> Technology is a style of magick, but an inherently coincedental one.
> It can also be the vessel for a more vulgar strain, but not often.
It's been accepted by Static Reality, as such, any useful paradigm had better
be able to explain it and work with it. The same /was/ true of Hermetic
magick in Europe durring the Mythic Age, for instance... though it shared
that privellege with the Church...
> >OTOH, as for using a lightsabre, one wonders exactly _why_ a Dreamspeaker (or
> >anyone else, for that matter) would want to accumulate Paradox that fast...
Why do mages ever use Vulgar magick. I mean, it's harder (higher difficulty)
and it doesn't do any more than Coincidental magick, nor does it take less
time... the only reason is not being able to come up with a useable
coincidence.
If the Dreamspeaker wants to cut something in half, and the only effect to do
so that pops into his player's mind is to create a coherent beam of
destructive forces in his hand and slice away, well, what else is he going to
do?
The best way arround that problem would probably be to just allow suggestions
from the peanut gallery when a player is stuck for an apropriate effect.
> because they want an uberweapon with style? 'cause the like SW?
Sure. To prove to a technarc that the spirits can do it?
Maybe.
--
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/
|
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'-|---
|
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
NoirRose
>> Yet another individual who has never actually used a blade.
>Fortunately, a lightsabre ain't a blade, neh?
That is exactly the point we're making here. It's *NOT* a blade.
It has no mass. When you are using a lightsaber, you *do not* know where
the blade of the lightsaber is by the feel of the blade, or by any other
conventional method of locating something. And if you're trying to rely
strictly on sight, you're going to be finding yourself carved into a few
small pieces by your opponent.
>> Again, try fighting with a blade that you can't feel, it sucks.....you die
>> quickly...and in sparring you stand a real chance of actually hurting the
>> person your sparring with because you contact with fist rather than the padded
>> blade.
>That's fighting _without a weapon_, a far cry from a massless lightsabre. If
>the lightsabre was invisible and had no effects on the enemy, you might have a
>point, but then the sword wouldn't. ;)
There is a distinct difference between fighting with a weapon and without
a weapon, true. But one thing that cannot be simulated is the *feel* of any
blade, even a practice one. Anything you use, unless it's a beam of pure
light (such as a lightsaber, which is essentially a ring laser at high power)
is going to feel different. Different weapons have a different feel, as
well. A short sword requires a different fighting style from a longsword, and
a broadsword uses a different style than a rapier. If you try using broadsword
tactics with a rapier, you're going to find yourself weaponless very fast, as
a rapier can't take the stress of parrying in the same way a broadsword can.
It's the same principle as sparring with pads and without. If you spar with
pads on, you're training yourself to hit at a force and target that will
bruise *with the pads on*. Without the pads, the same blow will either not
connect, as it's short, or connect with more force than is intended. A practice
weapon of any kind is infinitly different from the real weapon, even if the
practice sword is exactly the same weight and size.
>If you want to try simulating a massless-"blade" lightsabre with no force
>feedback, try sparring with _flashlights_ - if your light is on the other guy
>and he's within, say, 3 feet of the flashlight, that's a hit. Although, you
>may find such sparring a little less than stimulating...
Mmm, yes, and have you tried doing this in the mist? You can't do it.
Unless you can keep one eye on your blade, one eye on your opponent's blade,
one eye on your opponent's face, and one eye on your opponent's body, it's not
possible to do it without getting killed. Without being able to sense the
location of your blade at all times, you can't make an instinctive parry and
know that it will connect. Try sparring with a real sword, and keep your eyes
on the sword at all times. See how fast you die. Now, try sparring with a
flashlight blade, and keep your eyes closed. See how fast you die. It should
be about equal in time. And just for the fun of it, spar with a real sword.
With a blindfold on. See how fast you die. It should take longer than in either
of the previous tests.
>This'll also demonstrate another point: with "standard" lightsabres,
>there'll be 2 types of battles: 1) Lightsabre vs. lightsabre - these'll be a
>lot like standard sword battles, complete with parrying. 2) Lightsabre vs.
>anything else. These will be over _fast_. You can't parry a beam of light
>and neither can it parry your sharp metal club, so once you're in range the
>fight's going to be over in seconds.
Incorrect. There is the lightsaber vs lightsaber, yes. But those are by far not
like standard sword battles at all. With a standard swordfight, you have littl
things to worry about like if you hit your opponent, is your blade going to get
stuck on bone, or lodge in flesh?. And if your sword hits a wall, it's either
going to stick in the wall, or bounce off, requireing you to bring it back under
control. A lightsaber will go right through *anything*. Except for a mirror.
Or another lightsaber. So you don't have to worry about it getting stuck in
anything.
And as for the second scenario, no, your lightsaber can't parry the
sharp metal club. So, if you cut the sword at the wrong angle, that sword is
going to keep going, right into you. And with a lightsaber, it's nearly
impossible to disarm your opponent without hurting him. Also, if you injure
your opponent, you're not going to have the steady weakening effect of blood
loss. A lightsaber cauterizes the wound, so there is no bleeding.
You also forgot distance fighting with a lightsaber. Something you
would find hard to do with a sword. I would very much like to see you whipping
a lightsaber around to deflect an energy bolt, and not overextend your strike,
bringing the lightsaber into close contact with your body.
>> You must be able to feel the blade at all times, not see it...even a mediocre
>> warrior like me can tell where the point of his blade is most of the time, and
>
>A lightsabre sticks out from the top of my hand. I know where my hand is and
>what direction it's pointing. I know where a point 3 feet out from the top of
>my hand is. Thus, I know where the point of my lightsabre is. Really, all I
>have to worry about is my hand.
BRRAAPPP!!! Sorry, that answer is incorrect. You parry a lightsaber
with a lightsaber. Which forces the blade to deflect in another direction.
You're looking at the other person't saber, trying to figure out what he's
doing next. Because your blade has no mass, you can't tell where it is. The
blade of the saber is deflected down, into the ground, and just happens to
slice off your foot as it goes into the dirt. Because you can't tell where
the blade is, and weren't looking at it, you just died.
>Think of it another way: for either a lightsabre or a sword, all the
>information you have is the pressure on your hand from the hilt. From this,
>you discern where the hilt is pointing and the blade will be along that line.
>Regardless of whether it's a normal sword or a lightsabre, all you have is
>the hilt, and all you need is to keep track of what the hilt's doing.
Yes, but as you pointed out earlier, a lightsaber cuts through anything.
Which means that there will be no twisting of the hilt when you parry something
Also, with something that has no mass, you'll be prone to using too much
force in your strikes and blocks, which will lead to your losing control of the
blade. This is apparent even with a light-weight weapon, such as a boffer.
Any time the blade you are using is lighter than what you are accustomed to,
you will overextend yourself. This overextending will inevitably lead to
eventual contact of the blade with your skin.
>
> I know when it strikes something...you can usually tell where on the blade you
>> contacted.
>
>There's 2 types of lightsabres:
>1) They transmit impact shock back to the wielder like a real sword. You can
>tell where the contact came just as for a sword. Actually, these
>parrying-lightsabres are a lot like a real sword, albeit much faster and it's
>simpler to tell where the blade is based on the pressure your hand is feeling.
>2) They pass right through objects (destroying them or not). Then it doesn't
>matter where on the "blade" the hit was - it's not like one of these lets you
>parry.
And this also is incorrect. Look at Luke's lightsaber. In Return of
the Jedi, he parries the Gamorrean's force-pikes several times on Jabba's
sail-barge, then goes on to cut off the guidance vanes of a speederbike
on Endor. There are several different kinds of lightsabers, true, but the
major differcence is in how many crystals are used to make the blade.
Blades with more than one crystal can be adjusted as to frequency, blade length,
etc.
>You hold the lightsabre's hilt in your hand and it always projects straight
>out from that hilt. Thus, you always know exactly where the "blade" is by
>the position of the hilt in your hand. Also, if you've got any kind of grip
>on it, it _won't_ twist and bounce back against you like a sword might. And,
>unlike a metal sword, lightsabres are easy to keep a grip on because of the
>greatly reduced worries about torque, angular momentum, and so on. It's the
>melee version of a point-and-shoot weapon.
Tell me that again when you're in the middle of a melee and your hands are
sweating like crazy. Now, how good of a grip are you going to have on a
nice, slick, shiny chunk of metal, hmmm?
>Normal-senses training generally wouldn't be hard at all. Build a low-power
>setting into the lightsabre that hurts but doesn't damage (much) and voila -
>a training weapon. Once you're used to the freedom the point-and-click
>nature of the weapon gives, you can crank the power back up.
>-P
This is possible, but it would be a lot harder than you think. Even
for an experienced swordsman, changing blades isn't exactly the easiest thing
in the world. Different sizes and shapes of blades handle completely
differently. And if you've got previous weapons training, your reflexes
aren't going to be much of a help, because you're going to be using automatic
responses to stimuli that don't exist with a lightsaber. Haven't used a sword
much, have you?
NoirRose
--
******************************************************
*************Touch not, come no closer...*************
******Dark petals cloak dark secrets, pain unseen*****
***********Would you choose the Black Rose?***********
*******Beware...dark thorns draw heart's blood.*******
******************************************************
NoirRose
>>
>> NoirRose...Never, ever, ever let two physics majors play SoE in a LARP. NEVER!
>
>hmm, that could be fun, I haven't argued implausable theories in a
>long time...
ARGH!!!! You didn't have to ST the two Physics majors playing SoE in a
LARP. One of whom decided to partially collapse a gravitational pocket.
The other of whom was of the opinion that he couldn't partially collapse
said gravitational pocket, it was an all or nothing deal. (Of course, the
fact that collapsing the pocket would have resulted in the death of his
character might have had something to do with it...) They proceeded to
spend the next two hours debating over it. Did I mention that both of them
were ASTs? <grumbles> Not to mention the paradox points!
Ratspaw
>Science is _right_. It is not magick, in the sense that it is not the
>bending of reality. Atoms have always existed, and chemical reasctions
>always worked, at any time. If a mage were to hop back in time and
>take a nuke with him, it would work no matter when he went to.
always existed because we decided they did. Before that the world was
always made of 'firmament', and at other times the world had always
been made of earth and fire and water and air. None of these were
wrong - when they were the predominant opinion, they were correct.
The reason that science is now right is because so many people believe
that science is right. The power that science has that makes it beat
the living shit out of magick is that it possesses both accessibility
and sensibility. The belief that science is this reliable, logical,
ordely system that /anyone/ can fathom allows even Sleepers to
practice the magick style of science to a limited degree. So Sleepers
continuously reinforce the master paradigm by their usage of science
in daily lives. If the Order of Hermes had been forward thinking
enough to make their rational system available for public consumption
and the 'betterment of all' it could just have well been the 'right'
system that science became. Instead they kept it secret and they paid
for it. Contrariwise, the Choristers tried to encompass everyone in
their belief system, whether they wanted it or not, making their
paradigm open to everyone. They had openness but they lacked the
internal consistency and fluidity that science possessed. There were
too many absolutes. If they'd been more flexible, they might have
brought us the 'right' system. Then comes along science. Anyone can
do it, at least a little, and it holds together inside. It's a
philosophy that has a wonderful capacity to plug its own holes,
especially because one of its tenets is that disproof is just as
important as proof.
So what I'm saying is science isn't right because it's right. Science
is right because it's a persuasive argument.
(At least in Mage. In RL, I'm all for science. No one philosophy
since the beginning of mankind has done as much for the world as
science.)
Ratspaw
The humble rat stands as proof that survival of the
fittest is about so much more than mere strength.
man...@geocities.com
watc...@no.more.spam.iki.fi wrote:
> The Saint of Killers <stofk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >NoirRose wrote:
> >> been ignored so far...The lightsaber blade, being pure light, has no mass,
no
> >> weight, and no heft. The *only* way to know where the blade of a lightsaber
> >> is is using the Force. Given that, how does your average Dreamspeaker tell
>
> Yes, well, but it's not quite that simple. An example: If you are
> playing tennis, you can be damn sure that you aren't staring at the racket
> all the time, because you also need to keep your eyes on the ball, and the
> tennis court, and glancing at your opponent every once in a while is a
> good move, too.
> Now, if the racket was completely weightless and swinging it
> offered no resistance whatsoever, chances are that you would hit yourself
> with it from time to time, simply because your attention was elsewhere.
> Even if the racket glowed and hummed, it'd still be outside your field of
> vision, and you'd end up whapping yourself with it.
> Now, doing that with something that can slice off a limb would be
> bad. What's more, even if you could keep from hurting yourself, there's
> still other people and property damage to consider...
Correspondence 1 would nicely duplicate Jedi's trick of "feeling" their
surroundings.
YOu could even combine it with Mind 1 multitasking so you can devote a *lot*
of attention to the blade.
Mant
--
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
Thrythlind
>> Yet another individual who has never actually used a blade.
>
>Fortunately, a lightsabre ain't a blade, neh?
>
>
>> quickly...and in sparring you stand a real chance of actually hurting the
>> person your sparring with because you contact with fist rather than the
>padded
>> blade.
>
>That's fighting _without a weapon_, a far cry from a massless lightsabre. If
>the lightsabre was invisible and had no effects on the enemy, you might have
>a
>point, but then the sword wouldn't. ;)
I never actually believed that bit about a weapon becoming part of you until I
actually used one, even though I've only really gotten to the sparring level,
the point still holds...in order to be an effective fighter, most of your
conscious mind must be on the opponents...not your weapon...the movements
should be natural, instinctive. You have to feel the messages given you by the
hilt twisting in her hand or the drag of the blade through air and be able to
translate them as throughly as if they were coming from your limbs....simply
being able to see your weapon is not enough...you could train someone to think
in abstract terms such as "my hand has to be here so I won't cut myself in
half"...but you cannot fight hand to hand if you have to judge where your
weapon is by vision.
>
>If you want to try simulating a massless-"blade" lightsabre with no force
>feedback, try sparring with _flashlights_ - if your light is on the other guy
>and he's within, say, 3 feet of the flashlight, that's a hit. Although, you
>may find such sparring a little less than stimulating...
>
>This'll also demonstrate another point: with "standard" lightsabres,
>there'll be 2 types of battles: 1) Lightsabre vs. lightsabre - these'll be a
>lot like standard sword battles, complete with parrying. 2) Lightsabre vs.
>anything else. These will be over _fast_. You can't parry a beam of
light
>and neither can it parry your sharp metal club, so once you're in range the
>fight's going to be over in seconds.
>
>
>> You must be able to feel the blade at all times, not see it...even a
>mediocre
>> warrior like me can tell where the point of his blade is most of the time,
>and
>
>A lightsabre sticks out from the top of my hand. I know where my hand is and
>what direction it's pointing. I know where a point 3 feet out from the top
>of
>my hand is. Thus, I know where the point of my lightsabre is. Really, all I
>have to worry about is my hand.
>
>Think of it another way: for either a lightsabre or a sword, all the
>information you have is the pressure on your hand from the hilt. From this,
>you discern where the hilt is pointing and the blade will be along that line.
>Regardless of whether it's a normal sword or a lightsabre, all you have is
>the hilt, and all you need is to keep track of what the hilt's doing.
>
>
>> I know when it strikes something...you can usually tell where on the blade
>you
>> contacted.
>
>There's 2 types of lightsabres:
>1) They transmit impact shock back to the wielder like a real sword. You
>can
>tell where the contact came just as for a sword. Actually, these
>parrying-lightsabres are a lot like a real sword, albeit much faster and it's
>simpler to tell where the blade is based on the pressure your hand is
>feeling.
>2) They pass right through objects (destroying them or not). Then it
>doesn't
>matter where on the "blade" the hit was - it's not like one of these lets you
>parry.
>
>
>> The lightsaber lacks one key trait that allows a traditional sword to send
>> information to its wielder....mass.
>
>You don't need mass to have force feedback, just, say, Forces 2 or so... ;)
>
>
>> A traditional blade will twist its hilt about when it hits something, and
>the
>> wielder can translate the twists into information on the blades
>>position....air will flow differently around a blade, allowing a wielder to
>>tell something about where the blade is...gravity will affect the blade as
>>well, and the normal trained mottions will reflect that...a skilled
>swordsman
>>will not accidently cut himself in two because he will feel the blade
>twisting
>>back into him...
>
>You hold the lightsabre's hilt in your hand and it always projects straight
>out from that hilt. Thus, you always know exactly where the "blade" is by
>the position of the hilt in your hand. Also, if you've got any kind of
grip
>on it, it _won't_ twist and bounce back against you like a sword might. And,
>unlike a metal sword, lightsabres are easy to keep a grip on because of the
>greatly reduced worries about torque, angular momentum, and so on. It's the
>melee version of a point-and-shoot weapon.
>
>
>> token a lightsaber trained-jedi (and it would be possible to train without
>any
>> supernatural senses, just more difficult)
>
>Normal-senses training generally wouldn't be hard at all. Build a low-power
>setting into the lightsabre that hurts but doesn't damage (much) and voila -
>a training weapon. Once you're used to the freedom the point-and-click
>nature of the weapon gives, you can crank the power back up.
>
>
>-P
>
The Saint of Killers
<SNIP everything>
A) You learn to tell where a sword is by mass because that is the
easiest method to do so.
B) A person who trains with a weapon with radically different mass may
learn a different way.
C) If a lightsaber hums, and they hum loud, then a lightsaber vibrates.
With your hand on the hilt, you can feel that vibration. This may very
well be the basic cue that those learning to use a lightsaber pick up
on.
D) Watch the movies. Look at Luke, Obi Wan and Darth use their
lightsabers. It doesn't look too terribly weightless to me. "But Saint,
it's made of concentrated light! Light is weightless! To say it has
weight is bullshit!" Dude. It's not real. To say it exists and argue on
how to use it is bullshit. Luke grunts with the effort of moving it. I
have to imagine that rather than being this inert, massless thing, the
blade tries to move like a snake, getting away from its holder. Rather
like holding onto a firehose, but with the knowledge that should it get
away from you, you may lose an arm.
'Course, the West End Games book probably doesn't agree with the above
theory. Too bad George Lucas didn't read the West End Games book before
directing the movie, or he could have told Mark and Guiness, "Hey, stop
acting like those damn plastic swords have mass!"
SoK
watc...@no.more.spam.iki.fi
>Not to deny the importance of weapon mass in targetting, but people do a
>pretty good job with purely visual cues, otherwise catching baseballs,
>hitting volleyballs, and shooting would be pretty ineffective, nevermind
>the targetting information the Force gives you. Does nobody remember the
>scene where Luke is being zapped by a training drone while fighting blind?
Yes, well, catching a ball isn't that hard, but then, if you are
relying on the visual cues, chances are that you aren't going to do a
whole lot of dodging or watching what your opponent is doing. I'm hardly a
swordsman of any kind, but plain common sense tells me that if you are
going to fight someone with a pointed stick, you need to know where your
stick is, where the other guy's stick is, and how they are moving.
Admittedly, realism isn't exactly SW's strongest point -- only a
total fool would actually allow a blinded novice to train with a
lightsaber in the confines of a relatively small ship that is currently
zipping through hyperspace. "Suicidal tendencies," anyone? =)
Unless, of course, ol' Kenobi _knew_ that Luke could handle it.
Food for thought, I guess.
And yeah, I remember the scene. I also remember the scene where
Luke blocks shots from the training drone, still blind. Seems to me he
knew exactly where the blade was.
rgo...@telusplanet.net
> On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:15:19 GMT, kab...@bu.edu (Kintaro Oe) wrote:
> >Science is _right_. It is not magick, in the sense that it is not the
> >bending of reality. Atoms have always existed, and chemical reasctions
> >always worked, at any time. If a mage were to hop back in time and
> >take a nuke with him, it would work no matter when he went to.
Not true actually. Oh, you could decide to revise mage so that magick
never becomes real (although that takes some of the fun out of it since
you can't do neat stuff like concocting alternate realities made on
Verbena or SOE concepts).
But regardless of whether or not atomic fission is part of objective
reality that wouldn't change the fact that those medieval
peasants you want to blow up have avatars and beliefs. Their mage
power will sabotage technology they don't accept.
Why would the technocracy worry about the trads if they had no potential
affect on anything?
SkywayTow
determined democratically (the more people who believe in it, the stronger the
reality). When a mage enforces his paradigm on reality (uses Magick), there is
friction. One reality says it can happen, the other one doesn't. Paradox is
that friction.
Think of reality as a very large carpet. Now think of Paradox as the maid.
If the maid sees a lump in the carpet, she's going to squash it (Paradox
Backlash).
The Dominant paradigm tells the maid what lumps to squash. If the trad
mages can enforce their paradigm to become the dominant one, they could do as
much magic as they please without worrying about the repercussions of getting
stepped on.
Each time a Technomancer uses technology, he is using magic that falls
within not only his paradigm, but the dominant one as well. That's the point of
coincedental magick: Try and make your magick come close to the dominant
paradigm; make it seem like it fits, and the maid doesn't notice you as much.
~~Caleb
* Check 47 USC( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.shtml ). You
spam, you pay up to 500$ US.
(Note: This quote is intended for humor, Don't take offense! I'm not a Nazi!)
"I lost 50 pounds on the Adolf Hitler Diet Program!" ~A. Frank
Thrythlind
with a weapon by keeping a visual track on it, which I know is total bull...I
could careless about lightsabers or this effect on rules...or whatever...I've
been using lightsabers as massless weapons myself inorder to fit into everybody
else's idea and thus make my examples less confusing...
Simply put, I didn't like people saying, "Hey, so what if it has no mass, it's
that big line of color I'm holding, it should be easy to keep track of in a
fight."
watc...@no.more.spam.iki.fi
>Correspondence 1 would nicely duplicate Jedi's trick of "feeling" their
>surroundings.
>
>YOu could even combine it with Mind 1 multitasking so you can devote a *lot*
>of attention to the blade.
Yeppers. I'd buy both explanations, no problems.
Kintaro Oe
>> >obvious explanation is also simple: it's Technocratic magick.
>>
>> he still must acknowledge that it is 'legitimate', and he could learn
>> how to if he was so inclined.
>
>In the sense that any magick you can get to work is 'legitimate' - there's
>a big differnce in mage between mundane static technology, and the Techomancy
>and Teknology of the Trads and Cons. The Dreamspeaker would have to explain
>the static workings of mundane technology within his own paradigm - and,
>could affect such technology directly using his magick. For instance, he
>could see electronics as 'imprisoning' spirits in order to function, and could
>cast Slay Machine or System Havok against an electrical device by
>(paradigmatically) 'freeing the spirits cruely enslaved by it' (the spirits
>then escaping in a shower of sparks and smoke) - it'd still be Enropy or
>Forces, but he could do it.
see, that's explaining it and accepting it. With that explanation, why
would technology fail when the mage is near? I mean, unless the mage
was "different" (i.e. had an effect cast), why would the technology
spontaneously fail upon his arrival? That seems silly and simplistic,
are harkens to the things I _don't_ like about Torg.
>> well, here is where I diverge from most accepted Mage Uberparadigm,
>> although some passages in the Book of Mirrors supports me.
>
>Not by too much, the WW party line (under Burcato, anyway) was that reality
well, most people (players) I've talked with go with the idea that
science is only coincedental magick, and technology (for example guns)
was once vulgar.
>had an objective baseline of some sort (the earth was always round for
>instance). Originally, Mage reality was wholly subjective (the earth was
>originally flat) and anything that apeared objective (gravity always seemed
>to work, the seasons, night and day, phases of the moon, etc have always
>continued) were really just common threads retained through a succession of
>paradigms. Wonder what Jess will do with it...
hopefully continue on Brucato's path in that regard. A wholly
subjective Mage setting will annoy me to no end.
>Actually, what you're looking for is /uderlying/ rather than above or
>beyond. What you're talking about is an objective reality - one in which
>there are consistent, universal 'laws' by which all phenomena opperate.
>
true, I see reality as having layers, I guess.
>The problem is you can't really take a comporomise position with this.
>Reality can /be/ subjective and look objective at times, or it can /be/
>objective and appear subjective, but, it can't /be/ both. In order to
>place Mage in an objective reality, you need to come up with an objective
>mechanism(s) to explain the how and why of all the magick that's being
>worked by magi (and other supernaturals for that matter). You can't fall
>back on magely 'subjective reality' to do it, because then reality becomes
>wholly subjective (with some parts of it just being historically unchanged).
>
actually, I see my theory as making the middle grounds. Here's how I
see the Mage uber-paradigm as working without becoming silly or
unworkable:
Reality _is_. Some things are constant (Paradox) in their existance,
although they can change. Reality has certain attributes (the laws of
physics and magick) that function along their merry little ways.
Humans (or more accurately _Avatars_, re: souls) have the ability to
wake up and see Reality for what it is. This awareness permits them to
tug on strings to get things to happen. Coincedental is a nice,
skillful tweak, vulgar is a tearing yank. So far I'm cleaving fine
with most everyone's paradigm.
Where I break off is how I see Reality and the Technocracy's goals.
There is a game out there where there are certain rules, some of which
cannot be changed and some of which can be. That rules itself (which
can be changed and which cannot be) is a rule that can be changed. I
can't remember the name of the game, sorry. Anyway, through the course
of play, the different players change rules and make new ones or
delete old ones or whatever.
I see Reality as the game and the Technocracy as a winning player.
They've placed science in the unchangable rule section, and put the
supernatural beings in the changable rule section. Now they are
deleting all supernatural rules, making anything not mundane "illegal"
or against the rules.
I just realized that that analogy was kind of complicated and not
really a very good one.
Let me say this then, I see Reality as being like clay. You can bend
it this way and that, but there are only so many shapes it can hold
while remaining solid and standing. There are some underlying
objectivities to Reality, and there are some other subjective (or
perhaps "alterable" would be a better term) aspects as well. Magick is
not the "enforcing of your paradigm" on the subject (I find that idea
silly), but of using your paradigm to focus your will to tweak
Reality. The Technocracy is not re-writing history (except in the
history books), they are deleting the future but cutting out more and
more rules from Reality, by making more and more things Paradoxical.
Theoretical, _anything_ about Reality could be re-written, but Reality
might not survive that. Who can predict what would happen if the
Dreamspeakers (gaining control of Reality) were to "erase" gravity?
Suppose they replace it with something like the love of Gaia for her
children, so she keeps them close to her. Who knows what minor
ramifications that would have, like making the Earth the center of the
universe, everything attracted to it...
I won't even think about what would happen if someone got rid of
Paradox (which would require the near-destruction of Reality, since
Paradox is a natural by-product of existing)
Does _anyone_ understand what I'm saying?
>So far, I've seen many would-be Technocrats on this NG insist that Mage
>reality must be Objective (or, more often, have 'objective elements' or an
>'objective baseline' - which is the same thing). I think, once, someone
>advanced a mechanism to allow for magick in an objective reality - and it
>boiled down to choosing among an infinite variety of objective realities...
>
well, I don't think that only Technocrats would think that Reality is
objective. Most Mage would, IMHO. That's what give them the conviction
to work magick, the fact that they _know_ they are right, that this is
the way it should be, and the others are making a big mistake.
>> Technology is a style of magick, but an inherently coincedental one.
>> It can also be the vessel for a more vulgar strain, but not often.
>
>It's been accepted by Static Reality, as such, any useful paradigm had better
>be able to explain it and work with it. The same /was/ true of Hermetic
>magick in Europe durring the Mythic Age, for instance... though it shared
>that privellege with the Church...
see, that's where I break off. Science was not accepted by Reality, it
always was part of Reality. Science was *always* right, and unless
something really drastic happens, it always will be.
kabael Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping
whose likeness has suddenly and inexplicably appeared as an oil painting on display in the middle of Boston...
which has now _disappeared_ just as mysteriously...
"The Dude abides."
-The Big Labowski
Kintaro Oe
> LARP. One of whom decided to partially collapse a gravitational pocket.
> The other of whom was of the opinion that he couldn't partially collapse
> said gravitational pocket, it was an all or nothing deal. (Of course, the
> fact that collapsing the pocket would have resulted in the death of his
> character might have had something to do with it...) They proceeded to
> spend the next two hours debating over it. Did I mention that both of them
> were ASTs? <grumbles> Not to mention the paradox points!
as STs that might be bad...
but as PCs that souds like fun : )
Kintaro Oe
>always existed because we decided they did. Before that the world was
I could take that, but I don't. It's just a personal taste issue. I
don't like the idea that Reality is so easily malleable.
>
>So what I'm saying is science isn't right because it's right. Science
>is right because it's a persuasive argument.
And in my Mage games it a persuasive argument because that is actually
how things _are_. In ancient Greece, there were still the periodic
elements combining to form objects, not bits of elements. The Greeks
_described_ it as elements, but they were not completely right.
>
>(At least in Mage. In RL, I'm all for science. No one philosophy
>since the beginning of mankind has done as much for the world as
>science.)
both good and bad. And remember that the only reason science has done
so much is that it doesn't resemble its roots at all, excpet in
methodology.
Kintaro Oe
>> >bending of reality. Atoms have always existed, and chemical reasctions
>> >always worked, at any time. If a mage were to hop back in time and
>> >take a nuke with him, it would work no matter when he went to.
>
>Not true actually. Oh, you could decide to revise mage so that magick
>never becomes real (although that takes some of the fun out of it since
>you can't do neat stuff like concocting alternate realities made on
>Verbena or SOE concepts).
>But regardless of whether or not atomic fission is part of objective
>reality that wouldn't change the fact that those medieval
>peasants you want to blow up have avatars and beliefs. Their mage
>power will sabotage technology they don't accept.
>Why would the technocracy worry about the trads if they had no potential
>affect on anything?
I didn't say that magick will never become "real." The way I see it,
all magick was once coincedental, then it went through phases were one
style or another was vulgar. Regions can have varying "levels of
vulgarity" but there are some things that will be constant throughout,
like Paradox.
And a sleeper's Avatar will have no effect on unknown technology other
than to perhaps generate mild bad luck. The tech would actually have
to violate a law that existed, independent of mortal interaction.
Sleeping Avatars aren't like anti-magick fields or anything, they just
sublty affect Reality. Things are more vulgar with witnessess because
Reality is stiffer and more brittle with them around. It's just like
walking through water is more difficult than air, not because the
water _decided_ that, but because that's the way it is.
Kintaro Oe
>determined democratically (the more people who believe in it, the stronger the
>reality). When a mage enforces his paradigm on reality (uses Magick), there is
>friction. One reality says it can happen, the other one doesn't. Paradox is
>that friction.
I disagree. You can have the idea of a changeable Reality without
going full-tilt into the idea of a fully democratic idea of Reality
and history.
> Each time a Technomancer uses technology, he is using magic that falls
>within not only his paradigm, but the dominant one as well. That's the point of
>coincedental magick: Try and make your magick come close to the dominant
>paradigm; make it seem like it fits, and the maid doesn't notice you as much.
I disagree. Each time a technocrat (or anyone) uses technology, they
are using a tool that follows the law of nature, not requiring any
magick to use. Tech is tech is tech, no matter when or where
crasher269
> D) Watch the movies. Look at Luke, Obi Wan and Darth use their
> lightsabers. It doesn't look too terribly weightless to me. "But Saint,
> it's made of concentrated light! Light is weightless! To say it has
> weight is bullshit!" Dude. It's not real. To say it exists and argue on
> how to use it is bullshit. Luke grunts with the effort of moving it. I
> have to imagine that rather than being this inert, massless thing, the
> blade tries to move like a snake, getting away from its holder. Rather
> like holding onto a firehose, but with the knowledge that should it get
> away from you, you may lose an arm.
>
> 'Course, the West End Games book probably doesn't agree with the above
> theory. Too bad George Lucas didn't read the West End Games book before
> directing the movie, or he could have told Mark and Guiness, "Hey, stop
> acting like those damn plastic swords have mass!"
>
> SoK
ive heard that there is a scientific arguement that light is both a wave
and a particle. now if your a SoE and you subscribe to this as part of
your paradigm then when the light is condensed as it passes through the
gems in the hilt, the particles could attract form bonds that would give
them enough density to give them weight. pack the light of a of a
couple thousand candella in the space of the blade and maybe it could be
considered heavy.
course that brings up the question of why arent they brighter.
also none of what ive read hear would really explain to me why sometimes
when 2 lightsabers hit they drop some sparks. wouldnt there have to be
some matter for the sparks to drop?
Ratspaw
>>Well, you could also look at it from the perspective that atoms have
>>always existed because we decided they did. Before that the world was
>I could take that, but I don't. It's just a personal taste issue. I
>don't like the idea that Reality is so easily malleable.
flavor of Coca-Cola, then scale it up to something like gravity.
>>So what I'm saying is science isn't right because it's right. Science
>>is right because it's a persuasive argument.
>And in my Mage games it a persuasive argument because that is actually
>how things _are_. In ancient Greece, there were still the periodic
>elements combining to form objects, not bits of elements. The Greeks
>_described_ it as elements, but they were not completely right.
That sucks all the fun out of it. That changes things from an
Ascension War where everyone is trying to wrest control of the world
paradigm from the Technocracy and remodel it in the image of their own
Truth to an Ascension War of pathetic has-beens throwing a global fit
that they were wrong. What's the point? If Science is true, the
mages cannot win. They can't reshape the world. Their magick isn't a
different vision of the mechanics of reality that can be shared and
spread. It's just... tricks.
>>(At least in Mage. In RL, I'm all for science. No one philosophy
>>since the beginning of mankind has done as much for the world as
>>science.)
>both good and bad. And remember that the only reason science has done
>so much is that it doesn't resemble its roots at all, excpet in
>methodology.
The method is what makes the meat in this case. The fact that it
doesn't resemble its roots at all any more and yet is still
essentially science is what makes it such a beautiful notion. Science
rocks.
David Johnston
>
> > The entire basis of MtA is Dominant Paradigm. The Dominant Paradigm is
> >determined democratically (the more people who believe in it, the stronger the
> >reality). When a mage enforces his paradigm on reality (uses Magick), there is
> >friction. One reality says it can happen, the other one doesn't. Paradox is
> >that friction.
>
> I disagree. You can have the idea of a changeable Reality without
> going full-tilt into the idea of a fully democratic idea of Reality
> and history.
>
> > Each time a Technomancer uses technology, he is using magic that falls
> >within not only his paradigm, but the dominant one as well. That's the point of
> >coincedental magick: Try and make your magick come close to the dominant
> >paradigm; make it seem like it fits, and the maid doesn't notice you as much.
>
> I disagree. Each time a technocrat (or anyone) uses technology, they
> are using a tool that follows the law of nature, not requiring any
> magick to use. Tech is tech is tech, no matter when or where
So reality isn't changeable at all? It is always the same?
Thrythlind
Every paradigm contains some level of tech, ranging from the Dreamspeakers very
low-tech world to the space stations of the void jammers...BUT...in mage "tech
is tech is tech" is not true.
If the dominant paradigm was Akashic no one could use a gun without, A) being a
mage, and B) invoking paradox, because the majority of the sleepers don't
believe that they'd work.
In fact if the dominant paradigm was Dreamspeaker you couldn't make a sword on
the level of the katana without risking paradox.
All tech is an expression of magick, it works because the majority of people
believe that things such as that exist and are made in a certain way and thus
work.......the combined belief of the sleeper population basically fuels the
gun's working process.
Kintaro Oe
>> are using a tool that follows the law of nature, not requiring any
>> magick to use. Tech is tech is tech, no matter when or where
>
>So reality isn't changeable at all? It is always the same?
no, Reality _is_ changeable, and it has been altered, but science is
not one of the changes. It has always been so. The changes that it has
gone through are the deletion of supernaturals, the increase in
Unbelief, and the ravaging of Paradox, not the _creation_ of science
kabael Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping
who's been called a "redneck wigger pimp" I dunno why
"The Dude abides."
-The Big Lebowski
Kintaro Oe
>Ascension War where everyone is trying to wrest control of the world
>paradigm from the Technocracy and remodel it in the image of their own
>Truth to an Ascension War of pathetic has-beens throwing a global fit
>that they were wrong. What's the point? If Science is true, the
>mages cannot win. They can't reshape the world. Their magick isn't a
>different vision of the mechanics of reality that can be shared and
>spread. It's just... tricks.
no, that misses the point completely. Just becase technology didn't
use to be vulgar has no effect on the Ascension War. Reality is still
changeable, it's just damn hard. Science _could_ be unwritten, at some
level (although that would likely be as bad as destroying all magick
is).
Magick _used_ to be right as well as science. It used to be
coincedental. The Technocracy changed that. Magick is not just tricks,
it is an essential part or Reality that the technocrats are ripping
from it.
>>both good and bad. And remember that the only reason science has done
>>so much is that it doesn't resemble its roots at all, excpet in
>>methodology.
>The method is what makes the meat in this case. The fact that it
>doesn't resemble its roots at all any more and yet is still
>essentially science is what makes it such a beautiful notion. Science
>rocks.
yes, it does : )
Kintaro Oe
>> lightsabers. It doesn't look too terribly weightless to me. "But Saint,
>> it's made of concentrated light! Light is weightless! To say it has
>> weight is bullshit!" Dude. It's not real. To say it exists and argue on
>> how to use it is bullshit. Luke grunts with the effort of moving it. I
people grunt when moving _without_ swords.
>ive heard that there is a scientific arguement that light is both a wave
>and a particle. now if your a SoE and you subscribe to this as part of
>your paradigm then when the light is condensed as it passes through the
>gems in the hilt, the particles could attract form bonds that would give
>them enough density to give them weight. pack the light of a of a
>couple thousand candella in the space of the blade and maybe it could be
>considered heavy.
that's pretty much a scientific fact, but light is composed of
_massless_ (or near massless) particles. They would not really weigh
any amount that a human could detect unaided
>also none of what ive read hear would really explain to me why sometimes
>when 2 lightsabers hit they drop some sparks. wouldnt there have to be
>some matter for the sparks to drop?
no.the sparks don't have to be matter themselves.
And personally, I've been along the theory that lightsabers are more a
high-energy plasma myself.
Alexander Williams
>Magick _used_ to be right as well as science. It used to be
>coincedental. The Technocracy changed that. Magick is not just tricks,
>it is an essential part or Reality that the technocrats are ripping
>from it.
Kintaro, the Technocracy isn't ripping Magick from the fabric of
Reality; that would be just as impossible as, in our universe,
removing Gravity through simple distruction without applying a
countr-force. Technology /is/ Magick, just as much as the Hermetic's
fireball of the Dreamspeaker's Astral explorations; as Crowley wrote,
'every act is a magickal act;' in the WoD, that's almost literally
true. Cars are an instantiation of Coorespondance, guns are exemplars
of Forces magick, /swords/ are members of the Matter effects. In
fact, one must view, if you adopt the implied Mage mindset, the screw,
the inclined plane, etc, all as very basic foci for magickal
operations, learned by humanity in the early days of existance.
Yes, this implies that, as philosophies go, the Technocratic view
pre-existed the Traditiona/Mystical one.
Of course, the underlying problem with the Mage view is that, under
its auspices, /all/ acts are Magickal. Your mind/Avatar is enabled to
interact with a concensual hallucination through the operations of
itself on the warp and weft of Magickal Reality. The only Laws that
matter are those of Magick and those are created wholly by belief.
Not only is this /not/ your beautiful house, not only is this /not/
your beautiful wife, but these aren't even your beautiful hands nor
your beautiful sights, everything is a cooincidental excuse for
sorcerous operations. In that light, the Mage cosmology opens itself
up for serious problems on the grounds of localized/distributed
belief, etc. Being the equivalent of a 'brain in a tank,' no matter
the medium you're suspended in, water or Magick, introduces the same
problems.
However, to return to your original contention, backed by this new
epiphany, magick simply cannot be 'ripped from reality;' like a
second-run movie, it can just be repackaged to sell to the Masses
under a different name and with a shinier box. In my mind at least,
this is better than the Tradition technique of keeping it all for
themselves.
--
Alexander Williams (tha...@mindspring.com)
Sometimes you bleed just to know you're alive.
====================================================================
"Robert Smith is a gorgeous man, better than myself in nearly every
way, I think. Chiseled from Florentine marble, smart as a whip,
rich as Croesus, strong as a bear, the ladies love him. Me?
Chiseled from sourdough batter, smart as a rod puppet, strong as a
gopher, rich as a novelty salesman, the ladies whisper amongst
themselves 'Who is that icky guy?' Still, I have ... oh, who am I
kidding? There's nothing to mitigate it."
Soonmot
up before i got here), the Force. The Force gives the jedi a means to detect
where the blade is, or were their reflexes *that* good that the Jedi could
parry laser beams? In my version of the Jedi in WoD (yeah yet another craft
write up ::gag:: ego check, i personally belive mine is much better than the
one's posted on bJ's) the Light Saber rote if forces 3/Prime 2/ Mind 1. forces
and prime to activate the balde, Prime, Mind, and Forces for the wondful
feedback generated by the blade. Difficutly 6 to use, just like a standard
sword. However there is also the lightsaber talisman sometimes given to
younger jedi who haven't progressed enough in their studies to be able to build
their own, which only uses Forces and Prime, the difficulty for this is all the
way up to 8 BECAUSE of all the arguments presented in this series of posts.
With the personal link to their balde the jedi cannot feel where the balde is,
and is going to be off balanced and such because of it.
---Mike
JUPITER THUNDER DRAGON
CRAAAAAASH!!!
David Johnston
> that's pretty much a scientific fact, but light is composed of
> _massless_ (or near massless) particles. They would not really weigh
> any amount that a human could detect unaided
Bah! You are sorely deluded by the forces of technocracy. Solid light,
like any other solid thing possesses mass and inertia.
David Johnston
>
> >> I disagree. Each time a technocrat (or anyone) uses technology, they
> >> are using a tool that follows the law of nature, not requiring any
> >> magick to use. Tech is tech is tech, no matter when or where
> >
> >So reality isn't changeable at all? It is always the same?
>
> no, Reality _is_ changeable, and it has been altered, but science is
> not one of the changes. It has always been so. The changes that it has
> gone through are the deletion of supernaturals, the increase in
> Unbelief, and the ravaging of Paradox, not the _creation_ of science
Why do you prefer this version?
I like the book version of reality, just because it contains a truth.
Every new development does start out as "magic", or did until quite
recently when it began to start out as science fiction. Steel
swords, agriculture, steam engines, medicine, even block and tackle,
all were regarded as magic when initially introduced.
I also like it because it means that mages are actually useful people
performing a vital service for humanity.
I like it because I think anachronisms in time travel are paradoxical
in themselves and should be punished anyway, and because I enjoy imagining
alternate worlds where things like Elemental Control are perfectly mundane
skills.
What's the appeal of your variant?
David Johnston
> no, that misses the point completely. Just becase technology didn't
> use to be vulgar has no effect on the Ascension War. Reality is still
> changeable, it's just damn hard. Science _could_ be unwritten, at some
> level (although that would likely be as bad as destroying all magick
> is).
>
> Magick _used_ to be right as well as science. It used to be
> coincedental. The Technocracy changed that. Magick is not just tricks,
> it is an essential part or Reality that the technocrats are ripping
> from it.
Coincidental magick is still not part of reality.
Thrythlind
the Force to parry blaster bolts: (A: the bolt itself produces a lot of light
but doesn't move at the speed of light. B: With the Force the Jedi knows where
the bolt is going as soon as it is produced)
Also the lightsaber should always be a Talisman, anybody can turn it on, no
spheres necessary, but only a Jedi can use one. I would suggest a combination
of Correspondance and Forces, maybe Prime and Mind as well. The lightsaber
itself probably would not produce feedback to duplicate a that given by a
sword, a Jedi wouldn't need it. Also I could see the blade, in Mage terms,
being totally of the Prime sphere.
JSpektr
>
> >Why do you prefer this version?
>
>
> >
> >I like the book version of reality, just because it contains a truth.
> >Every new development does start out as "magic", or did until quite
> >recently when it began to start out as science fiction. Steel
> >swords, agriculture, steam engines, medicine, even block and tackle,
> >all were regarded as magic when initially introduced.
>
> _everything_ magickal, and totally dissallows the normal world.
>
> it gets very (dangerously) close to a "mages control/advance
> everything" idea, which I find detestable. It also sucks nearly all
> the realism out of the WoD for me.
I think you're interpreting the book version as going too far.
Instead, look at it this way;
Making iron tools used to be Magick. Reality contained the "rules"
for forging and working brass, tin, and copper, but not the funny
dark rock that iron came from. But as humanity got used to the idea
that some rocks could be turned into metal, and metal could be
turned into tools, they began to come to grips with the idea that
there might be *other* rocks that could be forged into useful
things. Various sleeper craftsmen began looking for better rocks,
and their imagination began to change the paradigm.
At this point, Mages could create "enchanted" metal items, like
swords and armor, forged from iron, which was then a magick
substance. At this point, it may have been distilled from giant
blood or churned from maiden's tears. It wasn't a real thing. The
stories of these magickal items spread, and the sleeper craftsmen
searched for the source of the fantastic iron. Eventually, as the
paradigm shifted to make iron possible, some sleeper finally smelted
the first iron ore from an ordinary, non-magickal rock.
The above could have happened without Mages, and human desire for a
better metal could have been enough to change the paradigm. When the
paradigm was ready for a better metal, one would have been found,
Mages or not. Mages just work as a catalyst for the sleepers,
showing them possibilites that they could focus their belief on.
Ditto for other scientific ideas. No one could create atomic power
in the 1800s, because the paradigm wasn't ready for it. But some
sleeper genius could have created really efficient steam engines,
since the paradigm could handle them. When Einstein discovered
relativity, it turned out to be true because the paradigm had
shifted *before* he came up with his theory. He discovered it
because it had become possible to discover it. Fifty years earlier,
and the math wouldn't have worked out.
>
> I'm also partial to science, for one, and I've always prefered magic
> to be "beyond" normality, in the sense that science is right, but it's
And some science is "beyond" normality, such as HITMarks and
teleporting.
> not the _whole_ of the truth. That's the view I had before Mage and
> it's survived through my enjoyment of the game.
So, because it's your personal view, you can't use the viewpoint of
Mage while playing Mage? My personal view is that Vampires should be
cut from a deeply Cthulian/Brahm Stoker cloth, but that doesn't
prevent me from playing White Wolf's Vampires using their
viewpoints.
> >I also like it because it means that mages are actually useful people
> >performing a vital service for humanity.
> >
>
> It also makes Sleepers really sheep with no way to lead themselves,
> which I think has no place in the WoD. If everything new is magick,
> and only mages do magick, where does that leave the blind mortals?
Again, I think you're taking the book too far. Everything new isn't
magick. There are plenty of new things that can be built within the
paradigm. The rules can evolve to allow things no one has created.
Such as embryonic cloning. The public was ready for it ten years
ago, but it wasn't until recently that someone succeeded in cloning
a sheep. If it had been done in 1988, it still wouldn't have been
magick, since (IMHO) the paradigm was ready for it.
Really, Mages are slaves to the people, not their masters. They can
only grab at the table scraps of consensual reality, and try and
goad the masses into making things easier for them. The Technocracy
has been successful because it realized what sort of magic would be
*popular.* They don't arbitrarily decide what the paradigm should
become. Instead, they can tell what people will believe in, and then
try to steer them towards those things that agree with their own
beliefs.
> If the Hermetics gained control over the Consensus, they could make
> Elemental Control coincidental and then perfectly mundane. Why should
> that be something that isn't allowed by my theory?
Because that would disallow science, which your theory holds as a
basic, unchanging part of reality. Under the Hermetics, atoms
wouldn't exist any more, and things would be made of four basic
elements.
In ancient times, atoms didn't exist. That doesn't mean things were
made of four elements either (the Greeks were a tiny fraction of the
world population). Most likely, things weren't made of anything
specific. They were just things. Microscopes became possible when
people started thinking there might be something to see with them.
JSpektr - Mage. Why didn't they just make it Champions?
David Johnston
>
> The Force could be duplicated through a vareity of Spheres...and yes he uses
> the Force to parry blaster bolts: (A: the bolt itself produces a lot of light
> but doesn't move at the speed of light. B: With the Force the Jedi knows where
> the bolt is going as soon as it is produced)
Before it is produced.
>
> Also the lightsaber should always be a Talisman, anybody can turn it on, no
> spheres necessary, but only a Jedi can use one. I would suggest a combination
> of Correspondance and Forces, maybe Prime and Mind as well. The lightsaber
You mean for a Jedi's abilities? You forgot Time.
> itself probably would not produce feedback to duplicate a that given by a
> sword, a Jedi wouldn't need it. Also I could see the blade, in Mage terms,
> being totally of the Prime sphere.
Prime can't do that.
Soonmot
actually i *think* prime 4 allows the mage to channel pure quintessence as a
weapon.>
>> The Force could be duplicated through a vareity of Spheres...and yes he
>uses
>> the Force to parry blaster bolts: (A: the bolt itself produces a lot of
>light
>> but doesn't move at the speed of light. B: With the Force the Jedi knows
>where
>> the bolt is going as soon as it is produced)
>
Actually if you think it through, only Prime is similair to the Force. It's a
power that flows through everything, making up and linking every aspect of
exitince... just like quintessence. By manipulating the Force (my jedi cannot
work magic withouh prime 1 being thrown in to sence the Force) they can create
a variety of effects (the other spheres) basicly Prime, Forces, and Mind are
the primary spheres, with Time, Life, and Correspondece as secondary. Matter
and Spirit are useful but tertiary, and as an added story hitch, only jedi
masters are trusted enough to learn entropy (gptta love that whle jhor thing).
Kintaro Oe
>pre-existed the Traditiona/Mystical one.
>
>Of course, the underlying problem with the Mage view is that, under
>its auspices, /all/ acts are Magickal. Your mind/Avatar is enabled to
see, that's where I start to chafe under the common Mage uberparadigm.
I seperate magick from Reality. Magick is the direct messing with
Reality from out-of-bounds in a sense. Science and technology, and to
a lesser extent hedge magic, works within Reality's rules, instead of
changing them.
When something begins to work _within_ Reality, it is moving from the
realm of Maigck to Reality. Technology and science have always been
there. Alot of magical styles _used_ to be.
>interact with a concensual hallucination through the operations of
>itself on the warp and weft of Magickal Reality. The only Laws that
>matter are those of Magick and those are created wholly by belief.
I don't like that at all, it requires sentience for existance. I think
that belief and will _shape_ the universal Laws, they are not its
origin. The banks of a river should not be mistaken for its source
>Not only is this /not/ your beautiful house, not only is this /not/
>your beautiful wife, but these aren't even your beautiful hands nor
>your beautiful sights, everything is a cooincidental excuse for
>sorcerous operations. In that light, the Mage cosmology opens itself
>up for serious problems on the grounds of localized/distributed
>belief, etc. Being the equivalent of a 'brain in a tank,' no matter
>the medium you're suspended in, water or Magick, introduces the same
>problems.
I'm not _quite_ following you here. Can you explain it again? Are you
saying that making everything magickal creates problems? If so, I
agree wholeheartedly.
>
>However, to return to your original contention, backed by this new
>epiphany, magick simply cannot be 'ripped from reality;' like a
>second-run movie, it can just be repackaged to sell to the Masses
>under a different name and with a shinier box. In my mind at least,
>this is better than the Tradition technique of keeping it all for
>themselves.
I would say that magick cannot be ripped from Reality _healthily_.
That's why the spirit worlds are dying. Why the fae are fading. Why
spirit after spirit is entering Slumber. Why the Sleepers are just
that, and are so hard to Awaken. The Technocracy is trying to bleach
the Tapestry and in so doing they are damaging the delicate fabric
Kintaro Oe
true, but an amazingly negligable amount, you must admit : )
Kintaro Oe
>the Force to parry blaster bolts: (A: the bolt itself produces a lot of light
>but doesn't move at the speed of light. B: With the Force the Jedi knows where
>the bolt is going as soon as it is produced)
I'd say the Force _is_ all the Spheres, not just one. Each is another
aspect of it.
Kintaro Oe
>mage, and B) invoking paradox, because the majority of the sleepers don't
>believe that they'd work.
>
>In fact if the dominant paradigm was Dreamspeaker you couldn't make a sword on
>the level of the katana without risking paradox.
I would agree with the above _only_ if there had been an effort to
_erase_ science from the paradigm. Otherwise it would still remain.
>
>All tech is an expression of magick, it works because the majority of people
>believe that things such as that exist and are made in a certain way and thus
>work.......the combined belief of the sleeper population basically fuels the
>gun's working process.
See, that's where I totally diverge from what most people view as the
Mage uberparadigm. I say that Reality is in itself, and Will (sentient
or not, conscious or not) _inlfuences_ it.
My basic assumption is slighty (or grealtly). It's kind of a
chicken/egg thing. What came first? Reality or Will? I say Reality.
Most Mage payers say Will, in that it is Will that essential _is_
Reality, not affecting it.
Kintaro Oe
I would say that it is. It works _with_ the threads of Reality. That's
why it's easier and safer. Paradox does not always mean "outside of
Reality," it is a natural repurcussion of existing. Even hedge magic
can accue Paradox, although it manifests through different channels
Kintaro Oe
I came up with it : )
>
>I like the book version of reality, just because it contains a truth.
>Every new development does start out as "magic", or did until quite
>recently when it began to start out as science fiction. Steel
>swords, agriculture, steam engines, medicine, even block and tackle,
>all were regarded as magic when initially introduced.
that is _exactly_ why I don't like the book version. It makes
_everything_ magickal, and totally dissallows the normal world.
it gets very (dangerously) close to a "mages control/advance
everything" idea, which I find detestable. It also sucks nearly all
the realism out of the WoD for me.
I'm also partial to science, for one, and I've always prefered magic
to be "beyond" normality, in the sense that science is right, but it's
not the _whole_ of the truth. That's the view I had before Mage and
it's survived through my enjoyment of the game.
>
>I also like it because it means that mages are actually useful people
>performing a vital service for humanity.
>
It also makes Sleepers really sheep with no way to lead themselves,
which I think has no place in the WoD. If everything new is magick,
and only mages do magick, where does that leave the blind mortals?
>I like it because I think anachronisms in time travel are paradoxical
>in themselves and should be punished anyway, and because I enjoy imagining
>alternate worlds where things like Elemental Control are perfectly mundane
>skills.
why can't you have that with my theory? My theory changes nothing
really concrete in the here-and-now. It only changes the past and
possible future. The present is where the theories overlap.
If the Hermetics gained control over the Consensus, they could make
Elemental Control coincidental and then perfectly mundane. Why should
that be something that isn't allowed by my theory?
Ratspaw
> The Force could be duplicated through a vareity of Spheres...and yes he uses
> the Force to parry blaster bolts: (A: the bolt itself produces a lot of light
> but doesn't move at the speed of light. B: With the Force the Jedi knows where
> the bolt is going as soon as it is produced)
With Time he knows where it's going to be before it's produced. Even if he
used Forces to detect the bolt, his human reflexes wouldn't get the weapon
in the way in time. Time would let him predict the bolt and already have
the lightsaber in its path.
Mike Shannon
same with blaster bolts.
Ratspaw wrote in message <368F20CC...@hotmail.com>...
NoirRose
>>The Force could be duplicated through a vareity of Spheres...and yes he uses
>>the Force to parry blaster bolts: (A: the bolt itself produces a lot of light
>>but doesn't move at the speed of light. B: With the Force the Jedi knows where
>>the bolt is going as soon as it is produced)
>
>aspect of it.
Yes, but every Jedi has different strengths and weaknesses in the Force.
So the different Spheres would perhaps be a way of explaining where those
strengths and weaknesses are. Say you're real good at reading your
opponent's intentions, but can't lift anything. So, you have more points
in Mind than in Matter.
NoirRose
--
******************************************************
*************Touch not, come no closer...*************
******Dark petals cloak dark secrets, pain unseen*****
***********Would you choose the Black Rose?***********
*******Beware...dark thorns draw heart's blood.*******
******************************************************
NoirRose
>Thrythlind wrote:
>
>> The Force could be duplicated through a vareity of Spheres...and yes he uses
>> the Force to parry blaster bolts: (A: the bolt itself produces a lot of light
>> but doesn't move at the speed of light. B: With the Force the Jedi knows where
>> the bolt is going as soon as it is produced)
>
>used Forces to detect the bolt, his human reflexes wouldn't get the weapon
>in the way in time. Time would let him predict the bolt and already have
>the lightsaber in its path.
>
>Ratspaw
Mmmm. I'd have to argue with that. There are highly trained humans
who can catch arrows and bullets. It is possible to hone your reflexes to the
point where you can move considerably faster than most other humans. Besides
which, "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your
commands." (Luke questioning Obi-Wan on the nature of the Force, New Hope.)
When a Jedi is deep in the Force, he will move without knowing it, because
the Force is directing his actions to a point.
NoirRose
The Saint of Killers
> Mmmm. I'd have to argue with that. There are highly trained humans
> who can catch arrows and bullets. It is possible to hone your reflexes to the
Uh. People who can catch bullets? Pardon me?
SoK
Mike Shannon
learn something like Celerity...Garou have Rage. The Force is a power of
some kind I'd say it lets them do things no normal human could do. BTW
People can't catch bullets in their teeth. It is a trick. Penn & Teller did
it once then explained it. Pretty cool. Don't believe everything you see and
only half of what you hear. :)
The Saint of Killers wrote in message <369033...@earthlink.net>...
Ratspaw
<am...@trib.infi.net> wrote:
>As I understand it a lightsaber's blade is made up of energy not light. The
>same with blaster bolts.
travels a damn sight faster than Luke can raise his hand up to block
it. Time still works better than Forces for detecting the bolt even
if it's Zero Energy, Cosmic Power or Quantum Energy.
Ratspaw
>>With Time he knows where it's going to be before it's produced. Even if he
>>used Forces to detect the bolt, his human reflexes wouldn't get the weapon
>>in the way in time. Time would let him predict the bolt and already have
>>the lightsaber in its path.
>who can catch arrows and bullets. It is possible to hone your reflexes to the
where he could catch energy bolts. Jeez, you start moving that fast
and you have to bring flipping relativity into it. "OK, you managed
to block the energy bolt, but your arm gained infinite mass in the
process and rips loose from your shoulder. Oh, on the plus side it
aged one second less than the rest of your body in the meantime."
>Besides
>which, "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your
>commands." (Luke questioning Obi-Wan on the nature of the Force, New Hope.)
>When a Jedi is deep in the Force, he will move without knowing it, because
>the Force is directing his actions to a point.
He will move without knowing it, yeah, but where does the guidance
come from? That guy said Forces guides him to block the bolt. I say
Time. It lets him sense with the bolt will be before it's fired.
It's the only way a human, Jedi or no, could do it.
Thrythlind
>>Why do you prefer this version?
>
>I came up with it : )
>
>>
>>I like the book version of reality, just because it contains a truth.
>>Every new development does start out as "magic", or did until quite
>>recently when it began to start out as science fiction. Steel
>>swords, agriculture, steam engines, medicine, even block and tackle,
>>all were regarded as magic when initially introduced.
>
>that is _exactly_ why I don't like the book version. It makes
>_everything_ magickal, and totally dissallows the normal world.
>
>it gets very (dangerously) close to a "mages control/advance
>everything" idea, which I find detestable. It also sucks nearly all
>the realism out of the WoD for me.
realistic is different than accurate....
Vampires, werewolves, mages, these are not accurate to the real world
As far as I'm concerned...Realistic encompasses the question: "Would I do that
if I knew what he knows and could do what he can."
>
>I'm also partial to science, for one, and I've always prefered magic
>to be "beyond" normality, in the sense that science is right, but it's
>not the _whole_ of the truth. That's the view I had before Mage and
>it's survived through my enjoyment of the game.
>
I believe that anything that incarnates physically can be explained
scientifically (though not everything incarnates physically) but that there are
a number of scientific laws that we have not yet discovered. I also don't
understand how people can say science disproves god, the more I learn about
science the more I believe that there is a god and that he is beyond
science.....ack I'm on one of my rambles...must stop now...
>>
>>I also like it because it means that mages are actually useful people
>>performing a vital service for humanity.
>>
>
>It also makes Sleepers really sheep with no way to lead themselves,
>which I think has no place in the WoD. If everything new is magick,
>and only mages do magick, where does that leave the blind mortals?
All are potential mages....and every mortal performs a little even before they
really Awaken, most people call it luck.
Thrythlind
>>If the dominant paradigm was Akashic no one could use a gun without, A)
>being a
>>mage, and B) invoking paradox, because the majority of the sleepers don't
>>believe that they'd work.
>>
>>In fact if the dominant paradigm was Dreamspeaker you couldn't make a sword
>on
>>the level of the katana without risking paradox.
>
>I would agree with the above _only_ if there had been an effort to
>_erase_ science from the paradigm. Otherwise it would still remain.
>
>>
>>All tech is an expression of magick, it works because the majority of people
>>believe that things such as that exist and are made in a certain way and
>thus
>>work.......the combined belief of the sleeper population basically fuels the
>>gun's working process.
>
>See, that's where I totally diverge from what most people view as the
>Mage uberparadigm. I say that Reality is in itself, and Will (sentient
>or not, conscious or not) _inlfuences_ it.
>
>My basic assumption is slighty (or grealtly). It's kind of a
>chicken/egg thing. What came first? Reality or Will? I say Reality.
>Most Mage payers say Will, in that it is Will that essential _is_
>Reality, not affecting it.
But Mage assumes that Reality is completely affected by the perception of
others and that it doesn't have existence seperate from the various perceptions
of it. In those examples of other-dominant paradigms mentioned above, I meant
places where technology never showed up.
David Johnston
>
> On Sun, 03 Jan 1999 16:48:29 +0900, Ratspaw <rat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Thrythlind wrote:
> >
> >> The Force could be duplicated through a vareity of Spheres...and yes he uses
> >> the Force to parry blaster bolts: (A: the bolt itself produces a lot of light
> >> but doesn't move at the speed of light. B: With the Force the Jedi knows where
> >> the bolt is going as soon as it is produced)
> >
> >used Forces to detect the bolt, his human reflexes wouldn't get the weapon
> >in the way in time. Time would let him predict the bolt and already have
> >the lightsaber in its path.
> >
>
> Mmmm. I'd have to argue with that. There are highly trained humans
> who can catch arrows and bullets. It is possible to hone your reflexes to the
No. There are people can catch arrows. There is no one who can catch a bullet
outside of prestidigitation and comic book characters.
> point where you can move considerably faster than most other humans. Besides
> which, "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your
> commands." (Luke questioning Obi-Wan on the nature of the Force, New Hope.)
> When a Jedi is deep in the Force, he will move without knowing it, because
> the Force is directing his actions to a point.
>
Kintaro Oe
>power that flows through everything, making up and linking every aspect of
>exitince... just like quintessence. By manipulating the Force (my jedi cannot
>work magic withouh prime 1 being thrown in to sence the Force) they can create
that depends on how you jsutify the Spheres (and we're heading toward
that whole "Spheres in rotes" discussion again : )
I would say that each Sphere is a way of looking at the Force. Prime 1
is not required for everything. To see the _raw_ Force as it flows
_through_ everything, sure. But to see the Force as it flows through
someone's Mind is simply Mind 1, you're only looking at one "facet".
Prime 1 would show you the "raw" facet.
>a variety of effects (the other spheres) basicly Prime, Forces, and Mind are
>the primary spheres, with Time, Life, and Correspondece as secondary. Matter
>and Spirit are useful but tertiary, and as an added story hitch, only jedi
>masters are trusted enough to learn entropy (gptta love that whle jhor thing).
I would say that only Jedi masters are _taught_ Entropy. Learning it
from another source is something else entirely
Kintaro Oe
>>aspect of it.
>
> Yes, but every Jedi has different strengths and weaknesses in the Force.
>So the different Spheres would perhaps be a way of explaining where those
>strengths and weaknesses are. Say you're real good at reading your
>opponent's intentions, but can't lift anything. So, you have more points
>in Mind than in Matter.
exactly. : ) so why's there a 'but' there? : )
Kintaro Oe
>who can catch arrows and bullets. It is possible to hone your reflexes to the
you're not seriously saying that someone could move anywhere near the
speed of light? The blasters bolts move that fast. People _don't_
and I'm dubious about that catching bullets thing. really doubtful
Kintaro Oe
>Instead, look at it this way;
>
>Making iron tools used to be Magick. Reality contained the "rules"
that is _exactly_ what I don't like. Only a mage can perform magick.
Hence, only a mage can forge iron. Bad, bad, bad, imho.
[snip]
>The above could have happened without Mages, and human desire for a
>better metal could have been enough to change the paradigm. When the
>paradigm was ready for a better metal, one would have been found,
>Mages or not. Mages just work as a catalyst for the sleepers,
>showing them possibilites that they could focus their belief on.
I really don't think that a generic desire for a better metal would
make iron from magick to normality. It's to unfocused for so many
people to deeply believe in enough to change the consensus to
>
>Ditto for other scientific ideas. No one could create atomic power
>in the 1800s, because the paradigm wasn't ready for it. But some
>sleeper genius could have created really efficient steam engines,
>since the paradigm could handle them. When Einstein discovered
>relativity, it turned out to be true because the paradigm had
>shifted *before* he came up with his theory. He discovered it
>because it had become possible to discover it. Fifty years earlier,
>and the math wouldn't have worked out.
again, that's the situation I'm trying to avoid with my different idea
of Mage.
>> I'm also partial to science, for one, and I've always prefered magic
>> to be "beyond" normality, in the sense that science is right, but it's
>
>And some science is "beyond" normality, such as HITMarks and
>teleporting.
when science goes beyond normality, it is no longer science, and is
entering the realm of Science!
>So, because it's your personal view, you can't use the viewpoint of
>Mage while playing Mage? My personal view is that Vampires should be
>cut from a deeply Cthulian/Brahm Stoker cloth, but that doesn't
>prevent me from playing White Wolf's Vampires using their
>viewpoints.
because I don't like that view of Mage. I don't like playing in a
silly, impossible puddy universe. Mage is not presented like that, but
it can go there.
>Because that would disallow science, which your theory holds as a
>basic, unchanging part of reality. Under the Hermetics, atoms
>wouldn't exist any more, and things would be made of four basic
>elements.
I didn't say it was unchangable, just that it _hasn't_ been changed,
because it existed in the first place. Science is the same as magick
in that it was once "right". Magick differs in that it has been made
"wrong."
And I would say that "editing out" science could be as damaging as
erasing magick, just at the different end of the spectrum.
>
>In ancient times, atoms didn't exist. That doesn't mean things were
>made of four elements either (the Greeks were a tiny fraction of the
>world population). Most likely, things weren't made of anything
>specific. They were just things. Microscopes became possible when
>people started thinking there might be something to see with them.
again, that's something that chafes with me, so I change it into
something I like.
>
>
>
>JSpektr - Mage. Why didn't they just make it Champions?
because I would vomit profusely.
g@mer
>>Besides
>>which, "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your
>>commands." (Luke questioning Obi-Wan on the nature of the Force, New Hope.)
>>When a Jedi is deep in the Force, he will move without knowing it, because
>>the Force is directing his actions to a point.
>come from? That guy said Forces guides him to block the bolt. I say
>Time. It lets him sense with the bolt will be before it's fired.
>It's the only way a human, Jedi or no, could do it.
>
>Ratspaw
>
No, that guy said 'THE FORCE', not Forces. He was refering to the
metaphysical energy field the jedi believes infuses all reality (ie.
quintessence/Prime). When a Jedi attempts to manipulate reality, they
are directing and controling the Force, just as Mages are channeling
Quintessence. So, the Jedi's Force and Mages Forces are two sepearte
things. Now, you want to deflect the bolt, use a
Time/Correspondance/Forces or Matter effect. Correspondance to sense
where it will be, Time to sense when it will be there, and either
Matter or Forces to sense the thing you are trying to deflect (Forces
for energy projectiles, Matter for material projectiles).
Corey (the FrEaK) Rose
Kintaro Oe
>>everything" idea, which I find detestable. It also sucks nearly all
>>the realism out of the WoD for me.
>
>
> realistic is different than accurate....
>
>Vampires, werewolves, mages, these are not accurate to the real world
>
>As far as I'm concerned...Realistic encompasses the question: "Would I do that
>if I knew what he knows and could do what he can."
very true, and I find the idea that humans determine the entirety of
reality through their beliefs unrealistic and laughable. That's just
me though.
>I believe that anything that incarnates physically can be explained
>scientifically (though not everything incarnates physically) but that there are
>a number of scientific laws that we have not yet discovered. I also don't
that's basically the idea that I'm taking. Science works. Science has
always worked. But it doesn't explain the entirety of reality, like
teh Technocracy would wish it to.
>understand how people can say science disproves god, the more I learn about
>science the more I believe that there is a god and that he is beyond
>science.....ack I'm on one of my rambles...must stop now...
I agree with you that science cannot prove/disprove God, it deals with
a whole seperate realm. But oddly enough, I draw an opposite
conclusion to you. The more I learn about science, the less I see a
need for a God, and the less I see a God. : )
>>It also makes Sleepers really sheep with no way to lead themselves,
>>which I think has no place in the WoD. If everything new is magick,
>>and only mages do magick, where does that leave the blind mortals?
>
>All are potential mages....and every mortal performs a little even before they
>really Awaken, most people call it luck.
perhaps. But luck is different from vulgar magick.
Kintaro Oe
>others and that it doesn't have existence seperate from the various perceptions
>of it. In those examples of other-dominant paradigms mentioned above, I meant
>places where technology never showed up.
no, Mage _implies_ that humans determine all of Reality. I take the
track that humans _affect_ Reality. A little different that.
In my world, the universe would exist without mankind. In Mage, that's
up for debate.
Soonmot
>I would say that each Sphere is a way of looking at the Force. Prime 1
>is not required for everything. To see the _raw_ Force as it flows
>_through_ everything, sure. But to see the Force as it flows through
>someone's Mind is simply Mind 1, you're only looking at one "facet".
>Prime 1 would show you the "raw" facet.
>
<g> exactly what i was trying to say LOL, prime one is required for every rote
so they can see the force and the other soheres reflect the ways they can
understand that flow of power and maniuplate it.
>
>I would say that only Jedi masters are _taught_ Entropy. Learning it
>from another source is something else entirely
>
again i agree. but as the craft has like a total of maybe 40 members, they're
monitored rather closely, as the untrained Jedi may be lead to the dark side by
too advandced an understanding of entropy. I made a new status background to
reflect the real world and training expereince of the jedi. off hand i think
it goes
initiate-- under constant supervision by the knight or Master that recruited
the mage, no jedi secrets are revealed at this point.
Student--- The Jedi is being inducted into the real workings of the craft, may
recive a lightsaber talisman, still under supervision, but allowed some leeway.
Jedi--- (the ideal for aplayer character) pretty much self suffecient, must
have a 2 in prime/mind/forces. Allowed to make her own way in the world
jedi Knight--- must have constructed their own lightsaber, may begin scouting
for prospective students
Jedi Master-- Must have achived Mastery of Prime, Brought down a major agent of
the darkside, trained a number of students and have helped to awaken at least 1
sleeper.
Master level is when the learning of entropy is sanctioned, of course those
jedi's who turn to the darkside usually start to learn it as a matter of point.
---Mike
JUPITER THUNDER DRAGON
CRAAAAAASH!!!
Thrythlind
>>who can catch arrows and bullets. It is possible to hone your reflexes to
>the
>>point where you can move considerably faster than most other humans. Besides
>
>you're not seriously saying that someone could move anywhere near the
>speed of light? The blasters bolts move that fast. People _don't_
On the contrary you can follow a blaster bolts motion, from its first emergence
to the explosion....the bolt itself does not move at the speed of light....it
barely moves faster than a well-pulled arrow...they are certainly slower than a
bullet....they look like arrows of energy, but not light even though they
produce a great deal...
>
>and I'm dubious about that catching bullets thing. really doubtful
>
>
David Johnston
> >>Why do you prefer this version?
> >
> >I came up with it : )
> >
> >>
> >>I like the book version of reality, just because it contains a truth.
> >>Every new development does start out as "magic", or did until quite
> >>recently when it began to start out as science fiction. Steel
> >>swords, agriculture, steam engines, medicine, even block and tackle,
> >>all were regarded as magic when initially introduced.
> >
> >that is _exactly_ why I don't like the book version. It makes
> >_everything_ magickal, and totally dissallows the normal world.
> >
> >everything" idea, which I find detestable. It also sucks nearly all
> >the realism out of the WoD for me.
Realism? What "realism" would you be talking about? It's a fantasy
universe. The only realism comes from internal consistency.
> >
> >I'm also partial to science, for one, and I've always prefered magic
> >to be "beyond" normality, in the sense that science is right, but it's
> >not the _whole_ of the truth. That's the view I had before Mage and
> >it's survived through my enjoyment of the game.
> >
> >>
> >>I also like it because it means that mages are actually useful people
> >>performing a vital service for humanity.
> >>
> >
> >It also makes Sleepers really sheep with no way to lead themselves,
> >which I think has no place in the WoD. If everything new is magick,
> >and only mages do magick, where does that leave the blind mortals?
Same place they always were. Most people aren't majorly innovative.
Not everyone is a rocket scientist, or a leading medical researcher,
or even a clever inventor in his basement workshop. In Mage, everyone
is a potential Mage. In real life, not everyone has the drive and intellect
to break radical new ground and change the world.
> >
> >>I like it because I think anachronisms in time travel are paradoxical
> >>in themselves and should be punished anyway, and because I enjoy imagining
> >>alternate worlds where things like Elemental Control are perfectly mundane
> >>skills.
> >
> >why can't you have that with my theory? My theory changes nothing
> >really concrete in the here-and-now. It only changes the past and
> >possible future. The present is where the theories overlap.
> >
> >If the Hermetics gained control over the Consensus, they could make
> >Elemental Control coincidental and then perfectly mundane. Why should
> >that be something that isn't allowed by my theory?
No they couldn't. In your theory nothing ever becomes perfectly mundane
because all things that are mundane were never magic. You said it yourself,
that one couldn't travel back in time and find a point at which computers
won't work. If nothing has ever become mundane, then it seems reasonable
to assume that nothing ever will become mundane.
man...@geocities.com
tha...@mindspring.com wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jan 1999 01:55:09 GMT, Kintaro Oe <kab...@bu.edu> wrote:
> >Magick _used_ to be right as well as science. It used to be
> >coincedental. The Technocracy changed that. Magick is not just tricks,
> >it is an essential part or Reality that the technocrats are ripping
> >from it.
>
> Kintaro, the Technocracy isn't ripping Magick from the fabric of
> Reality; that would be just as impossible as, in our universe,
> removing Gravity through simple distruction without applying a
> countr-force. Technology /is/ Magick,
Technomagick is magick. Technology is no more magick than hedge magic is
magick. In fact they have pretty similar relationships.
> just as much as the Hermetic's
> fireball of the Dreamspeaker's Astral explorations; as Crowley wrote,
> 'every act is a magickal act;' in the WoD, that's almost literally
> true. Cars are an instantiation of Coorespondance, guns are exemplars
> of Forces magick, /swords/ are members of the Matter effects. In
> fact, one must view, if you adopt the implied Mage mindset, the screw,
> the inclined plane, etc, all as very basic foci for magickal
> operations, learned by humanity in the early days of existance.
>
> Yes, this implies that, as philosophies go, the Technocratic view
> pre-existed the Traditiona/Mystical one.
>
> Of course, the underlying problem with the Mage view is that, under
> its auspices, /all/ acts are Magickal.
No they aren't.
The moment they become part of the consensus they cease to be magick (unless
its a Mage pulling of a coincidental stunt).
When magic (no 'k'') was part of the paradgim, many people did magic without
doing magick.
Now technology is part of the paradgim, many people use technology without
using (techno)magick.
So the first cars may have been a Correspondence effect, but these days they
are not. Asprin may once have been a Life effect, but now its not. The laws
of reality have been established such that these things work, so they work
without any magick needed. You could argue that 'magick' of a sort is coming
from all those Sleeper Avatars that define the rules and let these things
work, but when a Sleeper starts their car, no magickal effect is being
started by them or anyine else.
Also some things may have *always* been part of the paradgim. If, say, the
lever has always been part of the paradgim, it has always been useable by
Sleepers. No Mage need ever have 'invented' it first with magick, its just
been part of a successive series of paradigms. Indeed any appartant 'truth'
like say gravity could just be a constant though human paradgims. No reason
to assume it can't be changes, mearly it never has been.
Its often overlooked that changing peoples view, changing the paradgim does
not require magick at all. Sleepers can do it. Sleepers can also build on the
paradgim. So if a scientific device uses laws already estabilshed, a Sleeper
can certainly invent it. Not all advances are due to Mages.
Mant
--
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