Did someone say Baba Yaga's Dead?
SaintCyril
I'm gonna get gripe for this, but let me word this.
If I remember right, Baba Yaga is 4th Gen, the Childe
of (The/ A) Nickitu. And all Nosferatu are supposed to be
descended from her, right? Okay, now from what I read
there are Ancient vampires descended from said Nickitu,
who wish to hunt down all of the Nosferatu's, Baba Yaga's
Childer.
Now the tangents ---
... If we go by the assumption that only another Vampire of
equal or greater "power" can squelch an Elder (4th Gen),
then maybe Baba Yaga is dead. BUT, wouldn't that mean...
1.) Someone with either some insight into the way Baba
thinks, or maybe just really good tracking system had to find her
and then kill her, right? Other than Auspex I would think that
someone with a similar level of Obfuscate and hiding style
could find her---but who? A Nickitu, that's who! Think of the past
arguements about "Spawning a different clan" and such.
Nickitu supposedly has a _Brood_ of Nickitu. If we assume that
none of these kiddies sire childer, than you've got a whole gang
of 4th Gen's running around.
2.) How many 4th Gen's are there? Elysium gives Character
Creation rules for up to only 5th, and then it says that that's the
maximum. If we assume that the Antediluvian's are "all groggy
and don't sire anymore" then there was a cut-off point of the making
of new Vamps, so the exact count has been pretty much consistent(?)
3.) That _Clan_ Question... if all the Nosferatu's descend from Baba...
does that mean the Nossies' are technically NOT a clan?
Blaring his big mouth,
*C. Robin, Esq.*
Nick Connelly
JSpektr
>
> Okay, with all of my screwy info, I know
> I'm gonna get gripe for this, but let me word this.
>
> If I remember right, Baba Yaga is 4th Gen, the Childe
> of (The/ A) Nickitu. And all Nosferatu are supposed to be
You are remembering incorrectly. There is no hard information on the
Niktuku, and their very existance is in doubt. If they do exist,
Baba Yaga is not one of them. She is the childe of Nosferatu
himself, as would be, presumably, the 4th generation founder of the
Niktuku bloodline.
> descended from her, right? Okay, now from what I read
> there are Ancient vampires descended from said Nickitu,
> who wish to hunt down all of the Nosferatu's, Baba Yaga's
> Childer.
Some Nosferatu are descended from her, some are not. There's no way
of knowing how many progeny Nosferatu sired.
> Now the tangents ---
> ... If we go by the assumption that only another Vampire of
> equal or greater "power" can squelch an Elder (4th Gen),
> then maybe Baba Yaga is dead. BUT, wouldn't that mean...
It's a faulty assumption. Granted, the likelihood of anyone less
than a VERY old 4th Gen, an Incarna, or an Oracle taking down Baba
Yaga is quite small. But it is possible.
She should, considering her accomplishments and inferred stats, be
one of the most powerful non-Antideluvian vampires on the planet,
not to mention having previously been one of the most powerful
Mages. A couple of Anarchs and a pack of Silver Fangs aren't going
to wipe the floor with her.
> 1.) Someone with either some insight into the way Baba
> thinks, or maybe just really good tracking system had to find her
A tracking system that gets past Obfuscate 9 and Thaumaturgy 9?
> and then kill her, right? Other than Auspex I would think that
> someone with a similar level of Obfuscate and hiding style
> could find her---but who? A Nickitu, that's who! Think of the past
> arguements about "Spawning a different clan" and such.
> Nickitu supposedly has a _Brood_ of Nickitu. If we assume that
> none of these kiddies sire childer, than you've got a whole gang
> of 4th Gen's running around.
Possible. If there was a large conspiracy of *very* clever Niktuku
or normal Nosferatu, all very old and low gen, working against her,
I can see it happening. And considering the amount of Obfuscate
being thrown around, no one would no there was even a fight.
> 2.) How many 4th Gen's are there? Elysium gives Character
> Creation rules for up to only 5th, and then it says that that's
However many the 3rd Gen made. I recall reading that Nosferatu may
have sired only 4 progeny. The books give details on Baba Yaga,
Shaitan (a Baali), and Nefertiti (a Settite). These are only the
ones I recall off-hand, and there are surely more in other
suppliments. Regardless, the majority would be in torpor or hidden
behind many layers of Obfuscation, disguise, Thaumaturgy, demonic or
Umbral pacts, and who knows what else.
Wasn't there two 4th gens in Chicago by night, or were they 5th?
> maximum. If we assume that the Antediluvian's are "all groggy
> and don't sire anymore" then there was a cut-off point of the making
> of new Vamps, so the exact count has been pretty much consistent(?)
Maybe. The main problem is a freshly minted 4th gen, left with an
Antideluvian sire that can't stay awake long enough to teach them
anything, would be toast. With only starting Disciplines, every
Anarch, Sabbat, and Diablerist that caught wind of them would be
beating a path to their door, and they'd soon end up lunch.
>
> 3.) That _Clan_ Question... if all the Nosferatu's descend from Baba...
> does that mean the Nossies' are technically NOT a clan?
They aren't, and therefor they are a clan.
Nevermind that she's descended from Nosferatu, so even if they were
all her childer, they'd still be a clan.
JSpektr - actually, the Iconu that have reached Golconda can gain
Disciplines up to 10 now. If one or more of their oldest members
were sufficiently motivated to stop the Old Mother, they might be
able to do it.
Webwalker
> SaintCyril wrote:
>>
>> Okay, with all of my screwy info, I know
>> I'm gonna get gripe for this, but let me word this.
>>
>> If I remember right, Baba Yaga is 4th Gen, the Childe
>> of (The/ A) Nickitu. And all Nosferatu are supposed to be
> You are remembering incorrectly. There is no hard information on the
> Niktuku, and their very existance is in doubt. If they do exist,
> Baba Yaga is not one of them. She is the childe of Nosferatu
> himself, as would be, presumably, the 4th generation founder of the
> Niktuku bloodline.
I thought that the Niktuku were the childer of Nosferatu that were blood
bound to Nosferatu, and that only one of his childer escaped, and she was
the 'founder' of the Nosferatu clan. And since the Nosferatu believe that
the Niktuku are hunting them down to appease Nosferatu, who is trying to
appease Caine, (get rid of those who bear the curse of Nosferatu) so that
they wouldn't embrace all that many, if at all.
--
"With its frigid brilliance, its blue-red sweeps
and gusts of great enkindlings, its polar green,
The colour of ice and fire and solitude."
Wallace Stevens, "The Auraruas of Autumn" http://chat.carleton.ca/~smiall
JSpektr
>
> Okay, so why did JSpektr write this again?
My guess is that I wanted to, and I thought I might clear some
things up. Now one must wonder, why did you ask that?
> > SaintCyril wrote:
> >>
> >> Okay, with all of my screwy info, I know
> >> I'm gonna get gripe for this, but let me word this.
> >>
> >> If I remember right, Baba Yaga is 4th Gen, the Childe
> >> of (The/ A) Nickitu. And all Nosferatu are supposed to be
>
> > You are remembering incorrectly. There is no hard information on the
> > Niktuku, and their very existance is in doubt. If they do exist,
> > Baba Yaga is not one of them. She is the childe of Nosferatu
> > himself, as would be, presumably, the 4th generation founder of the
> > Niktuku bloodline.
>
> I thought that the Niktuku were the childer of Nosferatu that were blood
> bound to Nosferatu, and that only one of his childer escaped, and she was
All rumors. I suppose you think Rasputin was a Nosferatu too?
> the 'founder' of the Nosferatu clan. And since the Nosferatu believe that
> the Niktuku are hunting them down to appease Nosferatu, who is trying to
> appease Caine, (get rid of those who bear the curse of Nosferatu) so that
> they wouldn't embrace all that many, if at all.
And where, pray, did you read all this?
JSpektr - short sigs are beautiful
JSpektr
>
> >JSpektr - actually, the Iconu that have reached Golconda can gain
> >Disciplines up to 10 now. If one or more of their oldest members
> >were sufficiently motivated to stop the Old Mother, they might be
> >able to do it.
>
> from V2nd) been able to raise all traits as high as they want.
In V2nd, it was only a rumor. In VRev., it is an established rule.
Most storytellers I knew assumed it was an untrue rumor, and didn't
use it. Than again, most didn't use the Iconnu at all. Nor have I
ever known a storyteller that even mentioned Golconda in a story.
JSpektr - personally, I usually toss all that out. But then, I also
toss out the combat system, Virtues, the Success system, Paths, the
Sabbat, all of the WtA background (except Pentex), and Mages. But
that's just in my tabletop games.
SaintCyril
>>
>> Okay, with all of my screwy info, I know
>> I'm gonna get gripe for this, but let me word this.
>>
>> If I remember right, Baba Yaga is 4th Gen, the Childe
>> of (The/ A) Nickitu. And all Nosferatu are supposed to be
>
Let me rephrase that.. I meant that Baba Yaga is the childe of the 3rd Gen, who
among diferent names, can be called Nosferat or (to me) Nickitu. Why do I call
him Nickitu? Clan Tremere has a founder.. by the name of Tremere. I would think
that the childer named "Nickitu" would have a pop named... Nickitu.
*C. Robin, Esq.*
Kintaro Oe
>does that mean the Nossies' are technically NOT a clan?
well, she is Absimiliard's childe, and he possessed the same
Disciplines and weaknesses (supposedly), so that would mean that the
Nosferatu are still a Clan.
kabael Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping
who's been called a "redneck wigger pimp" I dunno why
"The Dude abides."
-The Big Lebowski
Mcguffin Group -
http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/
I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kab...@bu.edu
Kintaro Oe
>Disciplines up to 10 now. If one or more of their oldest members
>were sufficiently motivated to stop the Old Mother, they might be
>able to do it.
_anyone_ that reaches Golconda (Inconnu or not) has always (at least
from V2nd) been able to raise all traits as high as they want.
freakshow
> You are remembering incorrectly. There is no hard information on the
> Niktuku, and their very existance is in doubt. If they do exist,
> Baba Yaga is not one of them. She is the childe of Nosferatu
> himself, as would be, presumably, the 4th generation founder of the
> Niktuku bloodline.
> Some Nosferatu are descended from her, some are not. There's no way
> of knowing how many progeny Nosferatu sired.
The dude is reffering to the one Niktuku that was unboundable and went
off and sire the Nosferatu that exists to this day. I doubt Baba Yaga
sire any childer.
> It's a faulty assumption. Granted, the likelihood of anyone less
> than a VERY old 4th Gen, an Incarna, or an Oracle taking down Baba
> Yaga is quite small. But it is possible.
Understatement of the New Year. Adsilmarr(sp?), had one hell of time
trying to embrace her, it took two battles. Not to mention she wasn't
even human to start with. I doubt she is any less powerful she was
before the embrace.
Plus he might be refering to something Justin put at the of the FAQ for
V:TM Rev.
Mal...@cyberclan.com
>SaintCyril wrote:
>>
>> Okay, with all of my screwy info, I know
>> I'm gonna get gripe for this, but let me word this.
>>
>> If I remember right, Baba Yaga is 4th Gen, the Childe
>> of (The/ A) Nickitu. And all Nosferatu are supposed to be
>
>You are remembering incorrectly. There is no hard information on the
>Niktuku, and their very existance is in doubt. If they do exist,
>Baba Yaga is not one of them. She is the childe of Nosferatu
>himself, as would be, presumably, the 4th generation founder of the
>Niktuku bloodline.
>
>> descended from her, right? Okay, now from what I read
>> there are Ancient vampires descended from said Nickitu,
>> who wish to hunt down all of the Nosferatu's, Baba Yaga's
>> Childer.
>
>Some Nosferatu are descended from her, some are not. There's no way
>of knowing how many progeny Nosferatu sired.
Actually you are forgetting some of the writeups in clanbook
nosferatu. Keep in mind though a lot of the things that are said in
the book are done in such a way as to be missinformation. Also the
clanbook was designed for 2nd edition, and white wolf is also well
known for changing it's mind every few months as to how rules are to
be read etc...
According to the story "related" in the clanbook, Nosferatu who was
the child of an unnamed female vamp (2nd gen, also believed to be the
sire of the toreador and the malks), embraced a beautiful woman in a
fit of passion. The woman escaped shortly after the embrace.
Nosferatu later embraced others (whom he was able to blood bond) as
well whom he used in the attack of the second generation (he went
after his sire due to a mark created during his embrace). Caine came
back and cursed him with uglyness(sp?) till the end of his days. All
of Nosferatu's childer also became extreamly ugly though the female
who had escaped did not suffer as those who were blood bound did.
Those who were bound became the core of the Nictuku (Nosferatu then
embraced other "beasts"). Nosferatu then sent the Nictuku out to hunt
down the woman and all of her line. According to information given
she was the first of the Nosferatu.
>> Now the tangents ---
>> ... If we go by the assumption that only another Vampire of
>> equal or greater "power" can squelch an Elder (4th Gen),
>> then maybe Baba Yaga is dead. BUT, wouldn't that mean...
>
>It's a faulty assumption. Granted, the likelihood of anyone less
>than a VERY old 4th Gen, an Incarna, or an Oracle taking down Baba
>Yaga is quite small. But it is possible.
Who knows... There is still that female running around who created the
reast of the clan...
Remember though, you have the survivors of the "pack" that were
created for the attack upon the 3 second gen vamps... No numbers were
ever given...
>Wasn't there two 4th gens in Chicago by night, or were they 5th?
Yes there were. Meneleus and Helena. I would hasten to point out
however that Meneleus was sired by Triole after Triole's commiting of
the amaranth upon his sire Brujah. That kind of changes things a bit
when you think about power levels. Helena was sired by Minos who was
sired by Aneka (sp?) the clan founder.
>
>> maximum. If we assume that the Antediluvian's are "all groggy
>> and don't sire anymore" then there was a cut-off point of the making
>> of new Vamps, so the exact count has been pretty much consistent(?)
>
>Maybe. The main problem is a freshly minted 4th gen, left with an
>Antideluvian sire that can't stay awake long enough to teach them
>anything, would be toast. With only starting Disciplines, every
>Anarch, Sabbat, and Diablerist that caught wind of them would be
>beating a path to their door, and they'd soon end up lunch.
>
>>
>> 3.) That _Clan_ Question... if all the Nosferatu's descend from Baba...
>> does that mean the Nossies' are technically NOT a clan?
>
>They aren't, and therefor they are a clan.
Actually if you really want to get down to it the Nosfer are a
bloodline off of the escaped unknown woman. They call themselves
nosferatu but the truth is their founder is actually a 4th gen vamp.
>Nevermind that she's descended from Nosferatu, so even if they were
>all her childer, they'd still be a clan.
>
>
AJSolis
>sire any childer.
Methusaleh I ever hope to read the stats for.
WoD Argent
monsters (not humans). They emerged even more deadly as the now bore the Curse
of Caine.
References- Nosferatu Clan Book, WoD: 2nd Ed, Masquerade of the Red Death
Trilogy
"The nobler a man, the harder it is for him to suspect inferiority in others."
- Cicero, Ad Quintum Fratrem
WhsprdFear
>who
>among diferent names, can be called Nosferat or (to me) Nickitu. Why do I
>call
>him Nickitu? Clan Tremere has a founder.. by the name of Tremere. I would
>think
>that the childer named "Nickitu" would have a pop named...
Nickitu
I've heard that his name was "Absimillard," or something of the sort (I don't
have the clanbook). Not all clan's founders have the name oftheir clans. Look
at Lasombra; the words "la sombra" are Spanish for "the shadow." It's highly
doubtful that a 3rd gen. made a few thousand years before Spanish was made has
a Spanish name.
Fear of the Whispers
Mike Shannon
three or ect..? Besides WW could write up that the Smurfs kill her off if
they wanted. I mean there was Papa Smurf and Brainy Smurf and
Killer-of-old-and-powerful-elder-vampire Smurf, right? :)
Kintaro Oe wrote in message <368ea6e9...@news.bu.edu>...
>>3.) That _Clan_ Question... if all the Nosferatu's descend from Baba...
>>does that mean the Nossies' are technically NOT a clan?
>
>Disciplines and weaknesses (supposedly), so that would mean that the
>Nosferatu are still a Clan.
>
>
JSpektr
>
> Baba Yaga was Nictuku, one of five. Nosferat searched the world, embracing
> monsters (not humans). They emerged even more deadly as the now bore the Curse
> of Caine.
Prior to the embrace, Baba Yaga was anything but a monster. She was
a hero, the defender of Russia, and an Earth-priestess devoted to
maintaining harmony and peace. She fought Absimiliard to the bitter
end to protect Russia from his predations.
If any of his childer was not a monster previous the embrace, it was
Baba Yaga.
> References- Nosferatu Clan Book, WoD: 2nd Ed, Masquerade of the Red Death
> Trilogy
References- Rage Across Russia, where it's spelled out pretty
plainly.
JSpektr - Niktuku, bah!
Jonathan Rowe
<jsp...@sprynet.com> writes
>> I thought that the Niktuku were the childer of Nosferatu that were blood
>> bound to Nosferatu, and that only one of his childer escaped, and she was
>
>All rumors. I suppose you think Rasputin was a Nosferatu too?
>
>> the 'founder' of the Nosferatu clan. And since the Nosferatu believe that
>> the Niktuku are hunting them down to appease Nosferatu, who is trying to
>> appease Caine, (get rid of those who bear the curse of Nosferatu) so that
>> they wouldn't embrace all that many, if at all.
>
>And where, pray, did you read all this?
It's in CB: Nosferatu where it specifically names Baba Yaga among the
Niktuku opf legend.
--
Jon Rowe
Valkyrie Magazine http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Partizan/
"Mundus Nihil Pulcherrimum"
Kintaro Oe
>> from V2nd) been able to raise all traits as high as they want.
>
it was in the base book, in the back. That's an established rule for
me, as much as Golconda can have established rules.
>
>Most storytellers I knew assumed it was an untrue rumor, and didn't
>use it. Than again, most didn't use the Iconnu at all. Nor have I
>ever known a storyteller that even mentioned Golconda in a story.
too bad, I like the mystery of the Inconnu and the almost impossible
promise of Golconda
>
>
>JSpektr - personally, I usually toss all that out. But then, I also
>toss out the combat system, Virtues, the Success system, Paths, the
>Sabbat, all of the WtA background (except Pentex), and Mages. But
>that's just in my tabletop games.
?? why? why play the game at all? I generally like everything you toss
out. There only thing it might need it some trimming
JSpektr
>
> >
> >JSpektr - personally, I usually toss all that out. But then, I also
> >toss out the combat system, Virtues, the Success system, Paths, the
> >Sabbat, all of the WtA background (except Pentex), and Mages. But
> >that's just in my tabletop games.
>
> ?? why? why play the game at all? I generally like everything you toss
> out. There only thing it might need it some trimming
I was exaggerating a bit. In some games, I run a standard WoD. In
others, I throw out everything that isn't in the core 2nd ed. book.
In others, I only use half the core rules, and throw away all of the
background from all the games. It depends on the group I'm playing
with.
As for why? I like the style and atmosphere of the World of
Darkness, but I disagree with some of its execution. And when I want
to run a particular type of game, I get rid of everything that
doesn't work for that sort of game. I see the books as inspiration,
not unbreakable laws.
Also, I'm a madly prolific creator, and whipping out a game universe
and background isn't much work for me. I ran a tabletop for the last
four months based on a set of rules I wrote in one night, and
background that was mostly written in two nights.
JSpektr - Welcome to Hell. Ain't it cool? (Dark Adventure)
crasher269
>
> Okay, with all of my screwy info, I know
> I'm gonna get gripe for this, but let me word this.
>
> If I remember right, Baba Yaga is 4th Gen, the Childe
> of (The/ A) Nickitu. And all Nosferatu are supposed to be
> there are Ancient vampires descended from said Nickitu,
> who wish to hunt down all of the Nosferatu's, Baba Yaga's
> Childer.
>
> ... If we go by the assumption that only another Vampire of
> equal or greater "power" can squelch an Elder (4th Gen),
> then maybe Baba Yaga is dead. BUT, wouldn't that mean...
>
> thinks, or maybe just really good tracking system had to find her
> someone with a similar level of Obfuscate and hiding style
> could find her---but who? A Nickitu, that's who! Think of the past
> arguements about "Spawning a different clan" and such.
> Nickitu supposedly has a _Brood_ of Nickitu. If we assume that
> none of these kiddies sire childer, than you've got a whole gang
> of 4th Gen's running around.
>
likely to have tried killing her. Durga Syn was dead set on seeing her
destroyed and as we all know Durga Syn was allied with Vlad Dracul.
Dyrga Syn I KNOW was in russia before the shadow curtain went up but i
dont know who else was. If you have a ton of allies then that can make
up for the lack of power.
if i had to guess then i would say the the general in her army who had
respect for the Garou may have turned traitor and helped them get to
her.
i have Rage Across Russia so if anyone wants to ask something specific i
can look it up(havent read it in a while).
(who says a dragon didnt backstab her...)
Kris Faul
Did anyone consider that prehaps a Silver Fang just "Renewed the Cycle" on
her? You'd think that the Fangs would have done it sooner than now, but they
are crazy so you never know.
Samir Wissa
crasher269 <crash...@cyber-quest.com> wrote in article
<3690F43F...@cyber-quest.com>...
It's on the Webpage. Baba Yaga is dead!!!
Sam W. ;p
Kintaro Oe
>others, I throw out everything that isn't in the core 2nd ed. book.
>In others, I only use half the core rules, and throw away all of the
>background from all the games. It depends on the group I'm playing
>with.
huh. whatever works, I guess.
I have to admit that sometimes I feel nostalgic for the simplicity of
the base 2nd Edition, where so many things were so mysterious.
>
>As for why? I like the style and atmosphere of the World of
>Darkness, but I disagree with some of its execution. And when I want
>to run a particular type of game, I get rid of everything that
>doesn't work for that sort of game. I see the books as inspiration,
>not unbreakable laws.
good point, but I usually take the tact of tweaking things. Sometimes
WW does screw up, or make things not as... precise... clear...
concise... whatever! as they could, like Changeling. I love the game,
but it really needs a serious overhaul to get closer to the image I
have in my head, the image that they were trying to get to (I hope).
the only games I ever really attacked with an axe were Trinity and
Dark Sun, because both appealed to me, but I think that many things
were royally botched in their execution. Most other games I like
enough to keep as is or hate enough to not play at all.
>
>Also, I'm a madly prolific creator, and whipping out a game universe
>and background isn't much work for me. I ran a tabletop for the last
>four months based on a set of rules I wrote in one night, and
>background that was mostly written in two nights.
I like to work within the world, myself, mainly because I think that
WW has done a superb and wonderful job already, and I like to work
under that umbrella, patching holes and making stuff to fill the
space.
gulfora
the assumption i was refering to was the only another vampire of <= gen
can kill an elder.
JSpektr
>
> I have to admit that sometimes I feel nostalgic for the simplicity of
> the base 2nd Edition, where so many things were so mysterious.
That's why I throw out so much of the background. My players
understand the basics of the games (there will be Vampires), but the
rest is always unknown, since I may, or may not have changed it.
> >Also, I'm a madly prolific creator, and whipping out a game universe
> >and background isn't much work for me. I ran a tabletop for the last
> >four months based on a set of rules I wrote in one night, and
> >background that was mostly written in two nights.
>
> I like to work within the world, myself, mainly because I think that
> WW has done a superb and wonderful job already, and I like to work
> under that umbrella, patching holes and making stuff to fill the
> space.
Ah, but I find it less work to create something new than to patch up
something old. Or if I am patching, to rip out the leaky section,
and reshingle the whole wing. And maybe ad a few more wings
afterward...
JSpektr - published games make it easy to have a consensual game
everyone knows about and can discuss. But private games should
always be something new and inventive.
- no, I don't play TWERPS, but I thought it was a great system.
Lovelace
Kintaro Oe wrote:
> the only games I ever really attacked with an axe were Trinity and
> Dark Sun, because both appealed to me, but I think that many things
> were royally botched in their execution. Most other games I like
> enough to keep as is or hate enough to not play at all.
>
Isn't Dark Sun a TSR AD&D game setting?
Christian Lovelace
Lost Soul and Occassional Hero
Cthullu for president 2000
Why vote for the lesser evil?
Kintaro Oe
>> the base 2nd Edition, where so many things were so mysterious.
>
>That's why I throw out so much of the background. My players
>understand the basics of the games (there will be Vampires), but the
>rest is always unknown, since I may, or may not have changed it.
I don't throw it out because I like it so much. And usually I have no
problem with PC knowing too much because I'm the only one who buys
anything most of the time. And they do good firewalling
>Ah, but I find it less work to create something new than to patch up
>something old. Or if I am patching, to rip out the leaky section,
>and reshingle the whole wing. And maybe ad a few more wings
>afterward...
sometimes... it's actually faster and easier for me. :) I guess we
just have different styles there
JSpektr
>
> >> I have to admit that sometimes I feel nostalgic for the simplicity of
> >> the base 2nd Edition, where so many things were so mysterious.
> >
> >That's why I throw out so much of the background. My players
> >understand the basics of the games (there will be Vampires), but the
> >rest is always unknown, since I may, or may not have changed it.
>
> I don't throw it out because I like it so much. And usually I have no
> problem with PC knowing too much because I'm the only one who buys
> anything most of the time. And they do good firewalling
Ah, but most of the people that end up being my players have as many
or more books as I do. And they've probably read them more closely.
I developed this habit of constantly modifying source books back in
the heady days of AD&D 2nd ed. I had a player that would memorize
every line of every book, and then use it out of character. I
constantly admonished him for having his character know things they
couldn't, but eventually solved it by simply changing the appearance
of most of the monsters and spells. It worked so well (I still
remember the players running in fear from what were just
weird-looking Kobolds), that I kept it up. Not only did it prevent
players from using OOC knowledge, it made the game more interesting
for everyone, since they never knew what to expect.
>
> >Ah, but I find it less work to create something new than to patch up
> >something old. Or if I am patching, to rip out the leaky section,
> >and reshingle the whole wing. And maybe ad a few more wings
> >afterward...
>
> sometimes... it's actually faster and easier for me. :) I guess we
> just have different styles there
Sure. I recognize that the majority of people aren't as oppressed by
creativity as myself. While that's a sarcastic comment, it does get
to the point that I have difficultly keeping with a single campaign,
simply because by the second session, I've had soooooo many new
ideas. Hell, even at work, in the middle of designing a newsletter
or ordering some photos, I occasionally have to stop and jot down
some ideas on how to rewrite Freak Legion or make Backgrounds really
work well in a LARP. Of course, on the flip side, while working on
campaign material, I occasionlly come up with a really great idea
for a annual report cover...
"What are all these tentacle-thingees? This is an ad for the LT 188
lawn tractor!"
JSpektr - you know, I'd just quit and write RPGs for a living,
except that I like not starving to death.
JSpektr
> >> the 'founder' of the Nosferatu clan. And since the Nosferatu believe that
> >> the Niktuku are hunting them down to appease Nosferatu, who is trying to
> >> appease Caine, (get rid of those who bear the curse of Nosferatu) so that
> >> they wouldn't embrace all that many, if at all.
> >
> >And where, pray, did you read all this?
>
> It's in CB: Nosferatu where it specifically names Baba Yaga among the
> Niktuku opf legend.
Son of a .... you know, I thought I'd just grab my Nosferatu
Clanbook and come up with some witty counterpoint to this ... but I
can't find it. Oh, the irony. Of all the books that would be
impossible to find...
Anyhow, even if it named her as a Niktuku, I wouldn't believe it. At
the time of their printing, the clanbooks were specifically stated
by White Wolf to be untrustworthy. Anything in them could be nothing
more than rumor or propaganda. And considering that even the
Nosferatu Clanbook says the Niktuku might not be real, it isn't
surprising that Baba Yaga, a legendary and monstrous Nosferatu that
many believe is only a story, would be named as one of them.
Plus, I think she works much better as a tragic villain, someone
that was once the purest, most innocent hero, now doomed to eternity
as the blackest, most corrupted villain. Her own inner anguish at
what she has become (which is what allows her to cling to those last
few points of Humanity) makes her much more interesting than she
would be if she was simply a monster, before and after the embrace.
JSpektr - am I the only damn person in the world that *really* likes
Baba Yaga?
Kintaro Oe
>> Dark Sun, because both appealed to me, but I think that many things
>> were royally botched in their execution. Most other games I like
>> enough to keep as is or hate enough to not play at all.
>>
>
>Isn't Dark Sun a TSR AD&D game setting?
yes. both Dark Sun and Planescape are the -only- thing that TSR has
going for it, in my opinion, and both are saddled with an abominable
system. Planescape has a "better" setting than DS though, in the sense
that it needs less work.
I'm playing in a wonderful PS game right now, we're using modified L5R
rules, and it works beautifully.
man...@geocities.com
JSpektr <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote:
> Jonathan Rowe wrote:
> >
> > In article <368EFC41...@sprynet.com>, JSpektr
> > <jsp...@sprynet.com> writes
>
> > >> the 'founder' of the Nosferatu clan. And since the Nosferatu believe
that
> > >> the Niktuku are hunting them down to appease Nosferatu, who is trying to
> > >> appease Caine, (get rid of those who bear the curse of Nosferatu) so that
> > >> they wouldn't embrace all that many, if at all.
> > >
> > >And where, pray, did you read all this?
> >
> > It's in CB: Nosferatu where it specifically names Baba Yaga among the
> > Niktuku opf legend.
>
> Son of a .... you know, I thought I'd just grab my Nosferatu
> Clanbook and come up with some witty counterpoint to this ... but I
> can't find it. Oh, the irony. Of all the books that would be
> impossible to find...
>
> Anyhow, even if it named her as a Niktuku, I wouldn't believe it.
It also names Set so there you go.
At
> the time of their printing, the clanbooks were specifically stated
> by White Wolf to be untrustworthy. Anything in them could be nothing
> more than rumor or propaganda. And considering that even the
> Nosferatu Clanbook says the Niktuku might not be real, it isn't
> surprising that Baba Yaga, a legendary and monstrous Nosferatu that
> many believe is only a story, would be named as one of them.
Also, *if* her background in Rage Across Russia is true, Absimilard got no
chance to Blood Bond her, as the Niktuku are supposed to be bound, since he
was too busy fighting dragons and talons of the Wyrm.
If she diablerised her way up to 4th, she would not be Niktuku either.
> Plus, I think she works much better as a tragic villain, someone
> that was once the purest, most innocent hero, now doomed to eternity
> as the blackest, most corrupted villain. Her own inner anguish at
> what she has become (which is what allows her to cling to those last
> few points of Humanity) makes her much more interesting than she
> would be if she was simply a monster, before and after the embrace.
Well, for what its worth officialy she has no Humnanity.
> JSpektr - am I the only damn person in the world that *really* likes
> Baba Yaga?
Apparntly since Justin is killing her off.
Mant
--
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Kintaro Oe
>that was once the purest, most innocent hero, now doomed to eternity
>as the blackest, most corrupted villain. Her own inner anguish at
>what she has become (which is what allows her to cling to those last
>few points of Humanity) makes her much more interesting than she
>would be if she was simply a monster, before and after the embrace.
an interesting point... I'm gonna have to figure out how I want to
work with ol' Yaga...
>
>
>JSpektr - am I the only damn person in the world that *really* likes
>Baba Yaga?
no, I like her just fine, although I could see her being Nictuku as
well as not. If you want tragic, why not have Absimiliard have
Dominated her into his service? She might actually like/respect/pity
the Nosferatu...
Kintaro Oe
>or more books as I do. And they've probably read them more closely.
: )
I'm known around these parts for having all the WW books out (which I
don't), so people just borrow shit from me. One of my friends (joe!)
is always trying to get me to buy another book 'cause -he- wants to
read it but not pay for it. leeches, all of 'em : )
>Sure. I recognize that the majority of people aren't as oppressed by
>creativity as myself. While that's a sarcastic comment, it does get
>to the point that I have difficultly keeping with a single campaign,
>simply because by the second session, I've had soooooo many new
>ideas. Hell, even at work, in the middle of designing a newsletter
>or ordering some photos, I occasionally have to stop and jot down
>some ideas on how to rewrite Freak Legion or make Backgrounds really
I know what you mean there. I always carry around a little book for
ideas that come to me. My philosophy class was rather conducive to
that...
but I'm usually re-writing things to make them make sense or be
consistent or cooler, but always in relation to the setting as a whole
>work well in a LARP. Of course, on the flip side, while working on
>campaign material, I occasionlly come up with a really great idea
>for a annual report cover...
>
>"What are all these tentacle-thingees? This is an ad for the LT 188
>lawn tractor!"
hey, I'd have -loved- to see an ad like that when I was doing
landscaping over the summer.
"And this is our new Cthulu Brand (tm) riding tractor. Don't need gas
no more. You wanna go get the live sacrifice, Derek?"
>
>
>JSpektr - you know, I'd just quit and write RPGs for a living,
>except that I like not starving to death.
talk about a dream job (the writing bit, not the starving to death)
Infocalypse
> > > Niktuku opf legend.
> >
> > Son of a .... you know, I thought I'd just grab my Nosferatu
> > Clanbook and come up with some witty counterpoint to this ... but I
> > can't find it. Oh, the irony. Of all the books that would be
> > impossible to find...
> >
> > Anyhow, even if it named her as a Niktuku, I wouldn't believe it.
> At the time of their printing, the clanbooks were specifically stated
> > by White Wolf to be untrustworthy. Anything in them could be nothing
> > more than rumor or propaganda. And considering that even the
> > Nosferatu Clanbook says the Niktuku might not be real, it isn't
> > surprising that Baba Yaga, a legendary and monstrous Nosferatu that
> > many believe is only a story, would be named as one of them.
>
> Also, *if* her background in Rage Across Russia is true, Absimilard got no
> chance to Blood Bond her, as the Niktuku are supposed to be bound, since he
> was too busy fighting dragons and talons of the Wyrm.
>
> If she diablerised her way up to 4th, she would not be Niktuku either.
The Bloodwar-Trilogy also names her, Gorgo and Nuckalavee as Niktuku. Although it is
always questionable, how much we should trust any of the books, we should not forget
this source.
The only question I have is: IF Baba Yaga IS one of the Niktuku, it is probable that
she is younger than 2.500 years (I don't even think the Baba Yaga legends can be
traced back that far), that means, it is VERY improbable, that Absimmilard is lying
in Torpor in Enoch.
Jonathan Rowe
<hirc...@mail.uni-mainz.de> writes
>The only question I have is: IF Baba Yaga IS one of the Niktuku, it is probable
>that
>she is younger than 2.500 years (I don't even think the Baba Yaga legends can be
>traced back that far), that means, it is VERY improbable, that Absimmilard is
>lying
>in Torpor in Enoch.
--
JSpektr
>
> In article <36957301...@sprynet.com>,
> JSpektr <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote:
> > Jonathan Rowe wrote:
> > >
> > > It's in CB: Nosferatu where it specifically names Baba Yaga among the
> > > Niktuku opf legend.
> >
> > Son of a .... you know, I thought I'd just grab my Nosferatu
> > Clanbook and come up with some witty counterpoint to this ... but I
> > can't find it. Oh, the irony. Of all the books that would be
> > impossible to find...
> >
> > Anyhow, even if it named her as a Niktuku, I wouldn't believe it.
>
> It also names Set so there you go.
Really? I finally found the book, and reread the sections on
Niktuku. Set wasn't mentioned in them. Do you recall where this was
stated?
>
> At
> > the time of their printing, the clanbooks were specifically stated
> > by White Wolf to be untrustworthy. Anything in them could be nothing
> > more than rumor or propaganda. And considering that even the
> > Nosferatu Clanbook says the Niktuku might not be real, it isn't
> > surprising that Baba Yaga, a legendary and monstrous Nosferatu that
> > many believe is only a story, would be named as one of them.
>
> Also, *if* her background in Rage Across Russia is true, Absimilard got no
> chance to Blood Bond her, as the Niktuku are supposed to be bound, since he
Hmmm... and the on he never bound was a woman by a stream, and it
was an embrace of passion. Wasn't Baba Yaga fairly beautiful prior
her embrace?
> was too busy fighting dragons and talons of the Wyrm.
That's the kookiest bit of the story. If true (and there is
precedent), then her Arch-Mage level powers must have translated
into Thaumaturgy 9, with knowledge of rituals, almost immediately
after the embrace. If this part of the story actually represents a
period of decades, then he had plenty of time to bind her to him.
Though the most powerful sorceress in the world coming out of the
embrace with the ability to yank Incarna-level entities out of the
Umbra is thematically appropriate.
> If she diablerised her way up to 4th, she would not be Niktuku either.
Correct.
>
> > Plus, I think she works much better as a tragic villain, someone
> > that was once the purest, most innocent hero, now doomed to eternity
> > as the blackest, most corrupted villain. Her own inner anguish at
> > what she has become (which is what allows her to cling to those last
> > few points of Humanity) makes her much more interesting than she
> > would be if she was simply a monster, before and after the embrace.
>
> Well, for what its worth officialy she has no Humnanity.
Ah, but by the official rules, she also would be a raving lunitic,
incapable of rational thought. Obviously, this isn't the case. I
translate it as either her being on a path (a *very* old one), or
still having one or two dots of Humanity left, always teetering on
the edge.
>
> > JSpektr - am I the only damn person in the world that *really* likes
> > Baba Yaga?
>
> Apparntly since Justin is killing her off.
Again, I really think the line in the FAQ was a joke or a
smokescreen. She has too much potential as a shadowly major NPC to
just off her.
JSpektr - now Shaitan, he could be offed.
JSpektr
>
> >Ah, but most of the people that end up being my players have as many
> >or more books as I do. And they've probably read them more closely.
>
> : )
>
> I'm known around these parts for having all the WW books out (which I
> don't), so people just borrow shit from me. One of my friends (joe!)
> is always trying to get me to buy another book 'cause -he- wants to
> read it but not pay for it. leeches, all of 'em : )
I used to live with a guy like that. Problem is, I don't like to
borrow things, so I'd end up liking a book he bought, and have to go
buy it myself.
Currently, there's a huge bookstore, Library Ltd., just two blocks
from the building I work in, which makes it a good place to walk to
on lunch. I'm quickly depleting their stock of White Wolf books...
> >work well in a LARP. Of course, on the flip side, while working on
> >campaign material, I occasionlly come up with a really great idea
> >for a annual report cover...
> >
> >"What are all these tentacle-thingees? This is an ad for the LT 188
> >lawn tractor!"
>
> hey, I'd have -loved- to see an ad like that when I was doing
> landscaping over the summer.
>
> "And this is our new Cthulu Brand (tm) riding tractor. Don't need gas
> no more. You wanna go get the live sacrifice, Derek?"
Heh heh. So, you'd have really liked the ads my RPG group in college
used to put up? We actually got called in front of the dean, because
the poster we did that had a young girl under the caption "Sweet...
Innocent... Tastes Like Chicken" offended some people.
Unfortunately, it offended them because they thought it promoted sex
with minors, not because it promoted canabalism. But it was fun
watching our faculty advisor go nuclear (he had tenure) and shout
that canabalism was a classic theme in Science-Fiction, and that
everyone should understand and support the idea that we were joking
about devouring little girls.
> >JSpektr - you know, I'd just quit and write RPGs for a living,
> >except that I like not starving to death.
>
> talk about a dream job (the writing bit, not the starving to death)
Yeah, ask Achilli some time about the financial perks of writing for
White Wolf. I'll keep my day job, thanks.
JSpektr - doesn't mean I might not slip a few illustrations or a
manuscript or two their way, though...
AJSolis
>Really? I finally found the book, and reread the sections on
>Niktuku. Set wasn't mentioned in them. Do you recall where this was
>stated?
>
Kintaro Oe
>
>Niktuku. Set wasn't mentioned in them. Do you recall where this was
>stated?
I never noticed it either. It's in the Clan stereotypes.
>That's the kookiest bit of the story. If true (and there is
>precedent), then her Arch-Mage level powers must have translated
>into Thaumaturgy 9, with knowledge of rituals, almost immediately
>after the embrace. If this part of the story actually represents a
>period of decades, then he had plenty of time to bind her to him.
unless of course she was a sorceror, and not a mage.
>Ah, but by the official rules, she also would be a raving lunitic,
>incapable of rational thought. Obviously, this isn't the case. I
>translate it as either her being on a path (a *very* old one), or
>still having one or two dots of Humanity left, always teetering on
>the edge.
I'd say the latter.
>Again, I really think the line in the FAQ was a joke or a
>smokescreen. She has too much potential as a shadowly major NPC to
>just off her.
I'm hoping
>
>
>JSpektr - now Shaitan, he could be offed.
if done well : ) that could be -nice- indeed
kabael Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping
who's now back home at school and -happy-
"The Dude abides."
-The Big Lebowski
Mcguffin Group -
http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html
Darren MacLennan
> Yeah, ask Achilli some time about the financial perks of writing for
> White Wolf. I'll keep my day job, thanks.
How come White Wolf sells so many books - I've got at least twenty, myself
- yet can't pay Achilli what he's apparently worth? I mean, Vampire isn't
Underground, or TORG.
Can somebody explain this to me? The Vampire revised rulebook costs $30;
some of that has to trickle down to Achilli.
Or is there stuff that I'm missing? I'm sure that there is, but this has
been baffling ever since Achilli talked about it. I don't imagine that
he'd be rich, but it sounded as if he was straddling the poverty line when
he last talked about the state of his finances. He was exaggerating, of
course, but it sounded like it came from bitter experience.
So: Clue me in, please.
-Darren MacLennan
--
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are watching us, but that we're watching the Shopping Channel.
-William Gibson
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pa...@swipnet.se
JSpektr skrev i meddelandet <368E9125...@sprynet.com>...
>SaintCyril wrote:
>>
>> Okay, with all of my screwy info, I know
>> I'm gonna get gripe for this, but let me word this.
>>
>> If I remember right, Baba Yaga is 4th Gen, the Childe
>> of (The/ A) Nickitu. And all Nosferatu are supposed to be
>
>You are remembering incorrectly. There is no hard information on the
>Niktuku, and their very existance is in doubt. If they do exist,
>Baba Yaga is not one of them. She is the childe of Nosferatu
>himself, as would be, presumably, the 4th generation founder of the
>Niktuku bloodline.
>
>> descended from her, right? Okay, now from what I read
>> there are Ancient vampires descended from said Nickitu,
>> who wish to hunt down all of the Nosferatu's, Baba Yaga's
>> Childer.
>
>Some Nosferatu are descended from her, some are not. There's no way
>of knowing how many progeny Nosferatu sired.
What i have hered/read the nosferatu al descend from on 4th gen nosferatu
who didn't follow the founders comand not to creat children, and he abraced
the most powerful creaturs that he could find and sent them to kill the 5+
generation of the nosferatue clan. But the clan mad embrace their weapond
and created mor children than could be killed.
Am i right?
>> Now the tangents ---
>> ... If we go by the assumption that only another Vampire of
>> equal or greater "power" can squelch an Elder (4th Gen),
>> then maybe Baba Yaga is dead. BUT, wouldn't that mean...
>
>It's a faulty assumption. Granted, the likelihood of anyone less
>than a VERY old 4th Gen, an Incarna, or an Oracle taking down Baba
>Yaga is quite small. But it is possible.
>
>She should, considering her accomplishments and inferred stats, be
>one of the most powerful non-Antideluvian vampires on the planet,
>not to mention having previously been one of the most powerful
>Mages. A couple of Anarchs and a pack of Silver Fangs aren't going
>to wipe the floor with her.
I belive that she is Antideluvian(before the flood), but not of the 3d gen
and not embraced before the flood.
>> 1.) Someone with either some insight into the way Baba
>> thinks, or maybe just really good tracking system had to find her
>
>A tracking system that gets past Obfuscate 9 and Thaumaturgy 9?
>
>> and then kill her, right? Other than Auspex I would think that
>> someone with a similar level of Obfuscate and hiding style
>> could find her---but who? A Nickitu, that's who! Think of the past
>> arguements about "Spawning a different clan" and such.
>> Nickitu supposedly has a _Brood_ of Nickitu. If we assume that
>> none of these kiddies sire childer, than you've got a whole gang
>> of 4th Gen's running around.
Read: R.a.Rusia. she is alied with one of the 5 talons of the wyrm.
She have dragons following here, she proberbly killed Absimiliard or mad him
go in hiding.
She is not smale potato.:)
>Possible. If there was a large conspiracy of *very* clever Niktuku
>or normal Nosferatu, all very old and low gen, working against her,
>I can see it happening. And considering the amount of Obfuscate
>being thrown around, no one would no there was even a fight.
It would be fun.
>> 2.) How many 4th Gen's are there? Elysium gives Character
>> Creation rules for up to only 5th, and then it says that that's
>However many the 3rd Gen made. I recall reading that Nosferatu may
>have sired only 4 progeny. The books give details on Baba Yaga,
>Shaitan (a Baali), and Nefertiti (a Settite). These are only the
Shaitan wasn't he capadosian?
a settite they have their own founder Set.
>ones I recall off-hand, and there are surely more in other
>suppliments. Regardless, the majority would be in torpor or hidden
>behind many layers of Obfuscation, disguise, Thaumaturgy, demonic or
>Umbral pacts, and who knows what else.
>
>Wasn't there two 4th gens in Chicago by night, or were they 5th?
>
>
>> maximum. If we assume that the Antediluvian's are "all groggy
>> and don't sire anymore" then there was a cut-off point of the making
>> of new Vamps, so the exact count has been pretty much consistent(?)
>
>Maybe. The main problem is a freshly minted 4th gen, left with an
>Antideluvian sire that can't stay awake long enough to teach them
>anything, would be toast. With only starting Disciplines, every
>Anarch, Sabbat, and Diablerist that caught wind of them would be
>beating a path to their door, and they'd soon end up lunch.
>
>>
>> 3.) That _Clan_ Question... if all the Nosferatu's descend from Baba...
>> does that mean the Nossies' are technically NOT a clan?
>
>They aren't, and therefor they are a clan.
>
>Nevermind that she's descended from Nosferatu, so even if they were
>all her childer, they'd still be a clan.
Not if nosferatu is dead, IMO they are a clan because they say they are.
>
>JSpektr - actually, the Iconu that have reached Golconda can gain
>Disciplines up to 10 now. If one or more of their oldest members
>were sufficiently motivated to stop the Old Mother, they might be
>able to do it.
How many have reach golconda, IMO 15-20 vampires? not more.
P
John or Christine Thompson
>some of that has to trickle down to Achilli.
>
the distributor charges. Then the distributor takes their cut out of that, I
don't know how much. Tack on the cost of paper, printing and binding plus
the fees for the artwork and the actual writing of the book. After all that,
WW has to pay for their office space, utilities and other business overhead.
Out of what's left over, they get to pay Justin and Co.
Now I'm no MBA or anything, but I guess it's lucky if Mr. Achilli sees $1 of
the $30 you spent. Then the Feds take at least $0.25 of that, if not more.
John W. Thompson
Backstage at the Theatre of the Mind
http://www.galactic-ent.com/backstage
Over 250 Links, Amazon.com associate bookstore,
resources, reviews and stories, plus a Free newsletter
for gamers, by gamers. Check it out.
Darren MacLennan
Christine Thompson" <GOBAC...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> Well, first off, that's the retail price which is marked up 40-60% over what
> the distributor charges. Then the distributor takes their cut out of that, I
> don't know how much. Tack on the cost of paper, printing and binding plus
> the fees for the artwork and the actual writing of the book. After all that,
> WW has to pay for their office space, utilities and other business overhead.
> Out of what's left over, they get to pay Justin and Co.
>
> Now I'm no MBA or anything, but I guess it's lucky if Mr. Achilli sees $1 of
> the $30 you spent. Then the Feds take at least $0.25 of that, if not more.
Hmm. I guess that it just doesn't make sense to me - I can understand how
the $30 gets chopped down as it descends through the various levels. But
why pay the guy who's primarily responsible for the creation of the thing
less than he's worth?
I'm just going to let it go and assume that the above is primarily true;
the world of finance was never a strong point with me anyways.
But thanks for your input. :->
Ross Coburn
>the $30 gets chopped down as it descends through the various levels. But
>why pay the guy who's primarily responsible for the creation of the thing
>less than he's worth?
Well, my guess on this one is that it's because they can get away with it!
From what I hear, the entire industry is paid less than scale, except for
the owners/presidents etc.
If no one was willing to work for this $, then either the companies in
question would have to increase their compensation rates or the entire
hobby'd cease to exist (depending on rpg economics (which I am not up to
speed on) and the degree of greed/bastardliness of said owners).
Obviously, however, people like Justin Achilli are willing to work for
whatever it is they're paid (none of my business) because they enjoy what
they're doing enough to compensate. If this is not the case, they go
elsewhere and do something (possibly/probably less fun) for more dough.
Makes sense to me, in any event.
Ross Coburn
ro...@ican.net
Jason Corley
: Hmm. I guess that it just doesn't make sense to me - I can understand how
: the $30 gets chopped down as it descends through the various levels. But
: why pay the guy who's primarily responsible for the creation of the thing
: less than he's worth?
Because he's worth way more than you could possibly pay him with all of
the proceeds from all of the White Wolf products ever printed and/or sold.
No brag, just fact.
--
"He means well for his country, is always an honest man, often a wise man,
but sometimes, and in some things, absolutely out of his senses."
-----Benjamin Franklin, 1783
Jason D. "cor...@tau.lpl.arizona.edu" Corley isn't John Adams.
Infocalypse
> >of knowing how many progeny Nosferatu sired.
> What i have hered/read the nosferatu al descend from on 4th gen nosferatu
> who didn't follow the founders comand not to creat children, and he abraced
> the most powerful creaturs that he could find and sent them to kill the 5+
> generation of the nosferatue clan. But the clan mad embrace their weapond
> and created mor children than could be killed.
> Am i right?
This is half right half wrong.
Absimmilard (Nosferatu) had been found guilty by Caine of some evil deeds (Some
state, he has satisfied his hunger with his own Childer, others, he had sired
without permission.) Therefore Caine cursed him with Ugliness (he has been very
beautiful before, maybe even more so than the Toredor Antedeluvian).
Absimmilard became mad about this and hoped to reverse the curse by appeasing
Caine by killing all his Childer. To accomplish thi, Absimmilard embraced
magical monsters that still dwelled on Earth in these times, bloodbond them and
commanded them to kill all his progeny. These were the Niktuku. They are no
bloodline, but monsters embraced by Absimmilard. Three of them are: "The hag"
Baby Yaga, "He who eats heads" Nuckalaave and Gorgo "She who screams in
darkness". I do not know how many they are and who the others are, but one can
guess that at least Medusa is one of them.
> >> Now the tangents ---
> >> ... If we go by the assumption that only another Vampire of
> >> equal or greater "power" can squelch an Elder (4th Gen),
> >> then maybe Baba Yaga is dead. BUT, wouldn't that mean...
> >
> >It's a faulty assumption. Granted, the likelihood of anyone less
> >than a VERY old 4th Gen, an Incarna, or an Oracle taking down Baba
> >Yaga is quite small. But it is possible.
> >
> She have dragons following here, she proberbly killed Absimiliard or mad him
> go in hiding.
> She is not smale potato.:)
You are right, but even more so Absimmilard. I do not think he is dead. Some
Nosferatu (those within the true Hand) believe, he is one of the three entities
sleeping in the Crypt of Enoch and fear him even more than the Niktuku.
Påven
--
Patrik Gustafsson
Påven
ICQ:9863394
http://diod.ios.chalmers.se/tb98gupa
pa...@swipnet.se
Infocalypse skrev i meddelandet <369CE34F...@mail.uni-mainz.de>...
How does this contradict what i wrote?
>> >> Now the tangents ---
>> >> ... If we go by the assumption that only another Vampire of
>> >> equal or greater "power" can squelch an Elder (4th Gen),
>> >> then maybe Baba Yaga is dead. BUT, wouldn't that mean...
>> >
>> >It's a faulty assumption. Granted, the likelihood of anyone less
>> >than a VERY old 4th Gen, an Incarna, or an Oracle taking down Baba
>> >Yaga is quite small. But it is possible.
>> >
>> She have dragons following here, she proberbly killed Absimiliard or mad
him
>> go in hiding.
>> She is not smale potato.:)
>
>You are right, but even more so Absimmilard. I do not think he is dead.
Some
>Nosferatu (those within the true Hand) believe, he is one of the three
entities
>sleeping in the Crypt of Enoch and fear him even more than the Niktuku.
I agree.
P
William H. Stoddard
dmac...@kent.edu (Darren MacLennan) wrote:
>
> Hmm. I guess that it just doesn't make sense to me - I can understand how
> the $30 gets chopped down as it descends through the various levels. But
> why pay the guy who's primarily responsible for the creation of the thing
> less than he's worth?
>
concept. The traditional common law definition of "fair market value,"
for example, is the price at which a commodity passes from a willing
seller to a willing buyer. Period. All you need is a coincidence of two
subjectivities: one for which the widget is marginally preferable to the
money it costs; one for which the money is marginally preferable to the
widget. The margin can be as small as you like.
From a business manager's point of view, the worth of an employee or
subcontractor is the marginal increase in net profits from employing that
person as opposed to not employing them. If the amount of pay the worker
wants is more than the potential profits, then the business can use their
services only by operating at a loss, and businesses that do that end up
shutting down. So some things just don't get produced.
And in any creative field, wages get dragged down by an inescapable
problem: creative work is inherently rewarding, so much so that people
will often do it for free. There's a lot of competition for creative
jobs, a lot of people who are willing to take such a job for barely enough
to live on, or not even that if they have a day job. I've written several
submissions for a forthcoming GURPS supplement; each one that actually
gets used will bring me in less than $40, in Steve Jackson Games
merchandise. I count myself satisfactorily paid, because I'm having a
blast doing it. As long as there are people like me--and there certainly
are people who love making up White Wolf stuff!--it won't be necessary to
pay high salaries for gaming material, and so they won't be paid.
That's my opinion as to how these things work, but I think the first
paragraph is rock solid as far as economic theory is concerned.
--
William H. Stoddard whs...@primenet.net
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated long division sums.
(T. S. Eliot, "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats")
ama...@atl.mindspring.com
are several reasons:
€ The RPG market is *tiny.* White Wolf, #1 to #2 in the industry, pulled
in less than $16 million on its best year, and usually does about half
that. Other companies pull in far, far less. Only WotC makes anything
close to "normal" for most companies.
€ The costs of printing, distribution, returns, waste, rent, taxes, and so
many other expenses is so huge that very little of the gross makes its way
to the "salary" consideration. The fact that a publisher's cut is usually
about 40% of the book's cover price shaves the income down at the
beginningg, and it just gets worse from there.
€ Most, if not all, gaming companies are criminally mismanaged. White Wolf
is no exception to this rule. What little *does* come in gets pissed in
all directions, hoarded by the owners, invested back into the company, and
usually all of the above.
As Mr. Stoddard said, most gaming employees and creative folks do what we
do for very little money because we love it. Even so, the constant state
of financial crisis gets old, especially when a good deal of it is
avoidable. Even the best-run gaming company, however, is constantly
cash-poor. It's the nature of the beast.
Take care!
- Phil Brucato
ama...@atl.mindspring.com
> in less than $16 million on its best year, and usually does about half
> that. Other companies pull in far, far less. Only WotC makes anything
> close to "normal" for most companies.
Brief clarification: White Wolf hovers between #1 and #2 in the
*roleplaying game* industry. (Depending on the month, T$R is either above
or below WW.) If you count CCGs under the "game industry" heading, WotC
makes more than all of the other companies put together several times
over. Most sources do not consider WotC in the "Top RPG Companies" list
because it's so wildly off the scale, and because WotC hasn't produced
RPGs in years. (Although their subsidiaries do.)
That's better! :-)
- Phil Brucato
Steve Dickerson
<SNIP>
This isn't a direct response to Mr. Brucato's post, but rather to the
thread in general. There's a lesson in here, kids. Be a doctor, or
an engineer, or a used car salesman, or a blue-collar factory worker.
If you take up writing as a paying job, get used to standing in line
for commodity cheese.
JSpektr
>
> >> It also names Set so there you go.
> >
> >Really? I finally found the book, and reread the sections on
> >Niktuku. Set wasn't mentioned in them. Do you recall where this was
> >stated?
>
> I never noticed it either. It's in the Clan stereotypes.
Yup. This is what I get for spending all my time working on LARPs
instead of memorizing White Wolf books.
>
> >That's the kookiest bit of the story. If true (and there is
> >precedent), then her Arch-Mage level powers must have translated
> >into Thaumaturgy 9, with knowledge of rituals, almost immediately
> >after the embrace. If this part of the story actually represents a
> >period of decades, then he had plenty of time to bind her to him.
>
> unless of course she was a sorceror, and not a mage.
Maybe. Considering that the Tremere entered vampirism with high
levels of Thaumaturgy, I don't have a problem with it for Baba Yaga.
Again, she was capable of holding off an Antideluvian with her
magick, so I'd say she was at least in the Archmagi realm of power.
Translating that into Thaumaturgy 9 isn't a huge stretch.
Then again, according to the crossover rules in Sorcerer, she would
only have needed a total of 9 dots in Paths to transfer them to a
Thaumaturgy of 9. Hmmmm...
Baba Yaga as Sorcerer
Main Path:
Ephemera 5
Sub Paths:
Healing 3
Herbalism 4
Summoning/Binding/Warding (Daimonic) 5
Weathercraft 3
Enchantment 5
Divination 4
Her Ephemera and Binding could have translated into basic
Thaumaturgy of 9, with her main path being a middle-umbra version of
Spirit Thaumaturgy. Weathercraft would have translated into Weather
Control, while Healing, Herbalism and Enchantment could have either
translated into similar unique Thaumaturgy paths, or been converted
to freebie points for clan Disciplines. Her numberous rituals could
have converted into equivalent Thaumaturgical rituals. Divination
would have translated into Auspex.
The idea of a nearly immediate translation of power fits well with
the drama of her summoning the Zmei on her first night of unlife,
and it also fits Absimiliard's apparent surprise at his progeny's
abilities. I think the idea of an Antideluvian being surprised and
even held off by a brand-new childer is rather appealing.
>
> >Ah, but by the official rules, she also would be a raving lunitic,
> >incapable of rational thought. Obviously, this isn't the case. I
> >translate it as either her being on a path (a *very* old one), or
> >still having one or two dots of Humanity left, always teetering on
> >the edge.
>
> I'd say the latter.
I think it makes for the best sort of character, at least as an
ancient, powerful NPC. Then again, I hate the idea of Vampires on a
Path instead of Humanity, as I feel it robs the game of a vital,
central conflict.
In the rare instances I use the Sabbat, they're *all* balanced on a
razor-thin edge of Humanity, and pack members are always watching
each other, aware that one of them could dive into a final, unending
frenzy at any time.
> >Again, I really think the line in the FAQ was a joke or a
> >smokescreen. She has too much potential as a shadowly major NPC to
> >just off her.
>
> I'm hoping
Ditto.
> >JSpektr - now Shaitan, he could be offed.
>
> if done well : ) that could be -nice- indeed
As I've said before, the Anti-Tremere thing in Mexico City sounds
suspiciously like something that involves him.
JSpektr - Chaos Factor II, the book done right, coming soon to a
Walden Books near you.
Kintaro Oe
>only have needed a total of 9 dots in Paths to transfer them to a
>Thaumaturgy of 9. Hmmmm...
as a personal issue, I really hate the idea of powers just
"translating." I'd run it that she -still- had her -hedge magic-, not
the discipline Thaumaturgy. She learned that later (or perhaps to a
certain extent, instinctively during the fight), when she started
experimenting with using her blood to power her magic.
Personally, I allow -anyone- except mages to use hedge magic to its
fullest.
>> >Ah, but by the official rules, she also would be a raving lunitic,
>> >incapable of rational thought. Obviously, this isn't the case. I
>> >translate it as either her being on a path (a *very* old one), or
>> >still having one or two dots of Humanity left, always teetering on
>> >the edge.
>>
>> I'd say the latter.
>
>I think it makes for the best sort of character, at least as an
>ancient, powerful NPC. Then again, I hate the idea of Vampires on a
>Path instead of Humanity, as I feel it robs the game of a vital,
>central conflict.
I like the Paths, but I like them as being harder than Humanity to
follow.
I also like my NPCs to be multidimensional, which is why Baba Yaga
would have some Humanity in my game.
>
>In the rare instances I use the Sabbat, they're *all* balanced on a
>razor-thin edge of Humanity, and pack members are always watching
>each other, aware that one of them could dive into a final, unending
>frenzy at any time.
it seems that it's headed that way, for the most part. But I like
older vamps being on Paths.
>As I've said before, the Anti-Tremere thing in Mexico City sounds
>suspiciously like something that involves him.
>
>
>
>JSpektr - Chaos Factor II, the book done right, coming soon to a
>Walden Books near you.
now -that- would be a nice YoR book. Mexico bathed in blood. Just
think, Achilli, Dansky, and the other great writers from WW sweeping
Mexico with vitae. I'd enjoy it. : )
kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping
Conrad Hubbard
--
Conrad Hubbard, Editor of BLUE PRINCE, Ringmaster of THE ONE RING,
Editor of PARADIGMA (The Roleplaying Journal)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/7803
Author of PATHOS (A Collection of Poetry and Oddities)
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/1987
Conrad Hubbard
> the $30 gets chopped down as it descends through the various levels. But
> why pay the guy who's primarily responsible for the creation of the thing
> less than he's worth?
>
> the world of finance was never a strong point with me anyways.
Point taken here. I am just putting another view onto it.
The $30 you pay, generally means that the game story paid $15,
That means that White Wolf probably paid the printer half of that and perhaps made
$7.50, maybe.
They had to pay the writers out of that which isn't much.
They had to pay for advertising.
They had to pay for office space.
But basically, I just doubt that the line developers get a percentage of their
product line's sales. They are probably getting a salary.
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
: Point taken here. I am just putting another view onto it.
: The $30 you pay, generally means that the game story paid $15,
: That means that White Wolf probably paid the printer half of that and perhaps made
: $7.50, maybe.
: They had to pay the writers out of that which isn't much.
: They had to pay for advertising.
: They had to pay for office space.
: But basically, I just doubt that the line developers get a percentage of their
: product line's sales. They are probably getting a salary.
Yeah, somebody from WW mentioned last week that they don't do royalties.
Ben B.
JSpektr
>
> In article <77ieir$on0$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>, "John or
> Christine Thompson" <GOBAC...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> > Now I'm no MBA or anything, but I guess it's lucky if Mr. Achilli sees $1 of
> > the $30 you spent. Then the Feds take at least $0.25 of that, if not more.
>
> Hmm. I guess that it just doesn't make sense to me - I can understand how
> the $30 gets chopped down as it descends through the various levels. But
> why pay the guy who's primarily responsible for the creation of the thing
> less than he's worth?
If someone's worth $10, but you only have $5, how much would you pay
them?
JSpektr - meanwhile, over here in Advertising land, we give
photographers $30,000 or more on a weekly basis to go to Iowa and
shoot a tractor. It's a sad, sad world.
