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[Mage: LONG] An alternative electropunk setting

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Tariq Kamal

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May 13, 2003, 9:52:51 PM5/13/03

Anyone who's read the Mage Storyteller's Guide from cover-to-cover might
remember this. If you don't, it's in page 167. For those who don't have that
book (get it if you can -- it's quite good, mainly because it does a lot for
aspiring Storytellers and Players), here's a short precis:

Gutenberg finishes printing press, owes money to a lot of people. One of
them is a member of the Natural Philosopher's Guild (SoE predescessors),
and offers to waive off the debt to Gutenberg, if only he'd print out this
one book: the Kitab al-Alacir, which is, as you might know, is the
cornerstone of Etherite philosophy.

The book is mass-printed, and no one is able (for some reason) to stop
people from reading it and getting ideas in their heads -- mostly about
the wonders of Science! This, of course, happens WAY before the formation
of the Order of Reason -- or maybe the OoR gets messed around and doesn't
see this coming until it's too late.

So, by 1500, almost everyone in Europe subscribes to the Etherite
paradigm. The consensus, of course, follows suit.

I know at least one person who might be interested (oh, Stayka...) in this
whole setting. The problem is, though, that I've realized that I'm basically
trying to jump into the deep end: the setting itself can be so huge that no
one in their right minds should try it.

Yeah, it's like I'm trying to be Kurt Busiek when I have no idea what makes
superheroes tick, basically :)

Okay, so here are the issues that I'm facing:

* Obviously, this isn't Your Typical White Wolf Setting: It isn't as
hopeless, despair and apathy-ridden. Superficially, I'd like to go for a
High Adventure through the Cosmos themes, although anyone probing deeper
might just suddenly realize that things are much darker than they seem; as
required by the Law of Alternate White-Wolf Settings.

* This means that people have gotten of the mudball, and into space,
although certainly for different reasons: The Etherites want to do that
because the potential for new conquests and resources is so great, and
everyone else goes to space to get away from the Etherites. Just because
you're a proponent of 'mystical science' doesn't mean you're NICE.

* The Etherites are consensual: their brand of willworking is coincidental,
at least within their territory. That's the whole idea of this setting,
anyway -- within the territories you are aligned to, magic is coincidental:
outside of it, it's vulgar. Makes going to war really hard.

* The ones who oppose the Etherites would be the Verbana and the
Conservative Dreamspeakers, who find those Scientist bastards as bad as
those witch-burning maniacs in the Chorus, the Sahajiya (CoX), whom the
Etherites find 'morally deficient' (sex all the time? that's unhealthy!),
the Marauders (madmen! Someone get the straight-jackets!) and the Nephandi
(obviously). These people are usually pushed out from the Sphere, and
establish their own territories out of it. Of course, borders push one
another, and they occasionally fight.

* The Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,
Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within the Order
of Reason find their place within the Sphere, and occasionally within Enemy
Territory as well. It depends on how each paradigm fits into the other. The
Brothers and the OoH are located where humans are located -- although not
exactly trusted by everyone, they're not exactly hunted, either. The Wu Lung
handle governance within the Oriental regions of the Sphere, while the
Batini and the Euthanatos serve as Secret Agents that police humanity within
the Sphere: both grudgingly work together, despite their shared history.

* The Conventions are generally within the Sphere themselves -- exceptions
include the Conventions that make up the VE, who explore and chart the
universe around them from unusable Void. Iteration X make up one of the
'transhuman' factions, while Progenitors learn to work with Etherite
Science. Craftmasons disappear, only to reappear in high positions in
government. High Guild Members realize that the amount of Science! coming in
makes for good (albeit unstable) business, so they begin controlling the
flow of commerce within the Sphere. The Cabal of Pure Thought try to make
inroads into the Middle East and India, find the Euthanatos and Ahl-i-Batin
waiting for them, and get slaughtered, assimilated, and reshaped into the
Ivory Tower.

* Speaking of which, the Ministry of Swords handle the Batini, Euthanatos,
and Ivory Tower. Batini operatives handle political manouvering, alongside
the Craftmasons (whom they compete with). Euthanatos members handle
assasination and 'removals'. Ivory Tower members... well, they handle the
information, and are consummate bureaucrats.

* There are about three or so morality factions that compete and bicker
within the Sphere itself: The Etherite 'Moral Calculus' (which the
traditional Etherite factions and ItX espouse), the Euthanatos-Batini
'Wheel-Unity' moral system (which is followed, more or less, by Batini,
Euthanatos and Akashic Brotherhood) and... well... Everybody Else.

* Outside the Sphere of course are the 'pro-Gaian' factions (Verbena,
Conservative DS), 'Descension NOW!' factions (guess) and the Marauders,
which don't really follow any form of morality.

* Instead of the DW, Babbage and company create the Ether-Net, which spans
the Sphere and holds host to many factions.

* Instead of the Avatar Storm, the Sphere is surrounded by something known
as the Horizon Field. It's hard to cross that field either way. Anyone
outside the Sphere (CoX, Verbana, Cons DS, Marauds and Neffies) has a hard
time coming in, and it's hard to leave or enter. There are Gates
(Anchorheads) dotting the border of the Horizon Field, but these are guarded
by the VEs.

* Real Space does exist: Space in the Material World is a barren, cold,
void. Most early attempts into space unknowingly involve stepping aside --
once they realized that, however, they stay in Umbral Ether, because
travel's far easier that way.

* Anyone know how to incorporate solid-state electronics into the Etherite
Paradigm? I can't think of any way of doing it without introducing
Einsteinian physics.

* Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?

* This section are for those who want to add in Werewolves, Vampires,
Hunters, Mummies, Changelings, Wraiths, Demons and Anything else:

- Changers would, depending on type, stay in the Sphere (Glass Walkers,
Corax, Nuwisha), leave the Sphere (well, almost everyone else) or become
extinct (almost all Gurahl, save a few who terraform new worlds for the
Verbena, and the Red Talons, except for those who manage to steal a few
wolves and enter a few Garden Worlds).

- Vampires stay and leave. Unlike a lot of the other supes, most of the time
they spend their time in space in cold sleep, because the sun and other
stellar masses screw them up. Looks like Helios isn't the only one mad at
you, son of Caine. Many vampires stay within the Sphere, because, hell,
that's where the masses are at, and heck, there aren't as many lupines here
as there are outside the Sphere.

- I'd really like to incorporate the Great Maelstroms into the Wraithly side
of this setting. Problem is, I don't know what the hell Wraith is all about,
save for the scant information I can get from all over the Internet. Anyone?

- Arcadia gets spit out from the Sphere. It's probably a planet or realm.
Anyone who knows Changeling well can figure it out. Maybe they're like the
djinns who get bored of the Invisible World and come out to play.

- Mummy and Demon? Geez, you do it.

- There aren't any Hunters. Seriously. You think there would be any need for
Hunters? Okay, so you can have a group of people who get Imbued by the
Messengers. Dear lord, what a mess. I don't wanna think about it. YOU do it.

Did I miss anything?

Tariq Kamal

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 14, 2003, 5:57:22 AM5/14/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<some setting description snipped>
: So, by 1500, almost everyone in Europe subscribes to the Etherite

: paradigm. The consensus, of course, follows suit.

Perfect! Just as it should be! The Age of Acience!

: I know at least one person who might be interested (oh,

: Stayka...) in this whole setting.

Hehe. How did you guees? *blink*

: The problem is, though, that I've realized that I'm basically

: trying to jump into the deep end: the setting itself can be so
: huge that no one in their right minds should try it.

Oh, I would *love* to do that! (As a matter of fact, I set up an
SF universe a while ago that took place in a parallel universe
which diverged from our timeline because book printing was
invented about 200 years early... So there I actually did set up
a comparable thingy already... So it wouldn't be too difficult
to project such a new timeline on the WoD. Don't I just love
creating new worlds ^_^)

: Okay, so here are the issues that I'm facing:

:
: * Obviously, this isn't Your Typical White Wolf Setting: It isn't as
: hopeless, despair and apathy-ridden. Superficially, I'd like to go for a
: High Adventure through the Cosmos themes, although anyone probing deeper
: might just suddenly realize that things are much darker than they seem; as
: required by the Law of Alternate White-Wolf Settings.

It screams Gernsback Continuum :-)) Well, I typically don't
subscribe to the "all dark mood" of the WoD anyway. Must be my
wildly optimistic Sons of Ether outlook...

: * This means that people have gotten of the mudball, and into space,

: although certainly for different reasons: The Etherites want to do that
: because the potential for new conquests and resources is so great, and
: everyone else goes to space to get away from the Etherites. Just because
: you're a proponent of 'mystical science' doesn't mean you're NICE.

*g* Well, there was some discussion on that when I proclaimed my
pet project about the Futurity Alliance, which would be a third
power between Traditions and Technocracy, consisting of SoE, VAs,
VEs, some of the ItXers and some OoH bani Thig (although the
latter might already be too mystickal again...). Some comments
were issued along the line that it might turn somewhat
...terrifying to behold an Etherite lead fraction win in the
end... ^_^

: * The Etherites are consensual: their brand of willworking is coincidental,

: at least within their territory. That's the whole idea of this setting,
: anyway -- within the territories you are aligned to, magic is coincidental:
: outside of it, it's vulgar. Makes going to war really hard.

Well, Dingo set up something similar in his online campaign
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen WoD Xover - there Science is
coincidental within town areas and vulgar outside, and Magick is
coincidental in rural areas and vulgar within city confines. The
only exemption are Sanctums - if a Mystick set up a Sanctum in a
city it would be okay and vice versa.

: * The ones who oppose the Etherites would be the Verbana and the

: Conservative Dreamspeakers, who find those Scientist bastards as bad as
: those witch-burning maniacs in the Chorus, the Sahajiya (CoX), whom the
: Etherites find 'morally deficient' (sex all the time? that's unhealthy!),
: the Marauders (madmen! Someone get the straight-jackets!) and the Nephandi
: (obviously). These people are usually pushed out from the Sphere, and
: establish their own territories out of it. Of course, borders push one
: another, and they occasionally fight.

Well, Dreamspeakers and Verbena are usually totally alien
Paradigm-wise... I know that too well ^_^ I think it is safe to
assume they'd better be banned from any region where proper
Science is to be used.

: * The Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,

: Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within the Order
: of Reason find their place within the Sphere, and occasionally within Enemy
: Territory as well. It depends on how each paradigm fits into the other. The
: Brothers and the OoH are located where humans are located -- although not
: exactly trusted by everyone, they're not exactly hunted, either. The Wu Lung
: handle governance within the Oriental regions of the Sphere, while the
: Batini and the Euthanatos serve as Secret Agents that police humanity within
: the Sphere: both grudgingly work together, despite their shared history.

Well, I don't think even technomantic Dreamspeakers would fit in
well. They are way too mystick ^_^

: * The Conventions are generally within the Sphere themselves -- exceptions

: include the Conventions that make up the VE, who explore and chart the
: universe around them from unusable Void. Iteration X make up one of the
: 'transhuman' factions, while Progenitors learn to work with Etherite
: Science. Craftmasons disappear, only to reappear in high positions in
: government. High Guild Members realize that the amount of Science! coming in
: makes for good (albeit unstable) business, so they begin controlling the
: flow of commerce within the Sphere. The Cabal of Pure Thought try to make
: inroads into the Middle East and India, find the Euthanatos and Ahl-i-Batin
: waiting for them, and get slaughtered, assimilated, and reshaped into the
: Ivory Tower.

Neat :-)

: * Speaking of which, the Ministry of Swords handle the Batini, Euthanatos,

: and Ivory Tower. Batini operatives handle political manouvering, alongside
: the Craftmasons (whom they compete with). Euthanatos members handle
: assasination and 'removals'. Ivory Tower members... well, they handle the
: information, and are consummate bureaucrats.

*g* Don't we all love the Ivory Tower? (You really should meet
NWO operative Gloria, played by Marv - she's distilled bureacracy
and lives of and for forms...)

: * There are about three or so morality factions that compete and bicker

: within the Sphere itself: The Etherite 'Moral Calculus' (which the
: traditional Etherite factions and ItX espouse), the Euthanatos-Batini
: 'Wheel-Unity' moral system (which is followed, more or less, by Batini,
: Euthanatos and Akashic Brotherhood) and... well... Everybody Else.

Heh. Hm... Well, I think here we need to find out some more
factions, I think... But for that I'd need to ponder a little
(err, I'm sitting at work at the moment ^_^)

: * Outside the Sphere of course are the 'pro-Gaian' factions (Verbena,

: Conservative DS), 'Descension NOW!' factions (guess) and the Marauders,
: which don't really follow any form of morality.

That's where they belong and where they should stay, too. I hope
my VE colleagues see to it that the gauntlet is sufficiently
strengthened that no one can slip through except at the
appropriate Gateways.

: * Instead of the DW, Babbage and company create the Ether-Net, which spans

: the Sphere and holds host to many factions.

LOL. (Whenever I teach network courses, I have to suppress a big
grin when I talk about the Ethernet specifications...)

: * Instead of the Avatar Storm, the Sphere is surrounded by something known

: as the Horizon Field. It's hard to cross that field either way. Anyone
: outside the Sphere (CoX, Verbana, Cons DS, Marauds and Neffies) has a hard
: time coming in, and it's hard to leave or enter. There are Gates
: (Anchorheads) dotting the border of the Horizon Field, but these are guarded
: by the VEs.

Yay to the Voiders!

: * Real Space does exist: Space in the Material World is a barren, cold,

: void. Most early attempts into space unknowingly involve stepping aside --
: once they realized that, however, they stay in Umbral Ether, because
: travel's far easier that way.

Etherspace is always real fun, especially when you have the
Golden Age planets around!

: * Anyone know how to incorporate solid-state electronics into the Etherite

: Paradigm? I can't think of any way of doing it without introducing
: Einsteinian physics.

Who needs solid-state electronics? Etheric quantum transistors work
just fine!

: * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?

Well, the Green Faction (Verbena, Garou and their ilk) want to
turn it back into that vision they had from a green planbet etc.
The Etheric Society of cause isn't agreeing with that notion.
And we all know the Nephandi want to destroy Earth Just Because,
and the Marauders would like to carv their place there as it is
more fun to do outrageous things when there are people around who
watch...

: * This section are for those who want to add in Werewolves, Vampires,

: Hunters, Mummies, Changelings, Wraiths, Demons and Anything else:

Well, I will pass this on - my reply is long enough already ^_^

Clear Ether!
Stayka

--
Stayka's WoD Stuff at http://stayka.keyspace.de/sqhome/wod/
(Characters, online campaigns, my Frankfurt citybook, fun and more)

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 14, 2003, 9:49:55 AM5/14/03

Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de>
wrote in message news:<b9t3u2$6f5$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>...

> Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> <some setting description snipped>

<snip>

> : * This means that people have gotten of the mudball, and into space,
> : although certainly for different reasons: The Etherites want to do that
> : because the potential for new conquests and resources is so great, and
> : everyone else goes to space to get away from the Etherites. Just because
> : you're a proponent of 'mystical science' doesn't mean you're NICE.
>
> *g* Well, there was some discussion on that when I proclaimed my
> pet project about the Futurity Alliance, which would be a third
> power between Traditions and Technocracy, consisting of SoE, VAs,
> VEs, some of the ItXers and some OoH bani Thig (although the
> latter might already be too mystickal again...). Some comments
> were issued along the line that it might turn somewhat
> ...terrifying to behold an Etherite lead fraction win in the
> end... ^_^

Well, it would be. Etherites don't know what they're doing can hurt
people, I suppose. Proponents of the Moral Calculus occasionally
forget that others have moral workinsg that might not agree with
them...

Basically, the Etherite majority is clueless. Most think the universe
is there to be exploited or explored, without considering the
consequence of such reckless action.

Which is an attitude that backfires everytime they try and deal with
Umbrood Lords, Incarna and Outsiders.

> : * The Etherites are consensual: their brand of willworking is coincidental,
> : at least within their territory. That's the whole idea of this setting,
> : anyway -- within the territories you are aligned to, magic is coincidental:
> : outside of it, it's vulgar. Makes going to war really hard.
>
> Well, Dingo set up something similar in his online campaign
> League of Extraordinary Gentlemen WoD Xover - there Science is
> coincidental within town areas and vulgar outside, and Magick is
> coincidental in rural areas and vulgar within city confines. The
> only exemption are Sanctums - if a Mystick set up a Sanctum in a
> city it would be okay and vice versa.

Well, there'd be several Sphere's of influence, really. All would
cross over Earth, which... hmm. This'd mean that the planet Earth
would become a battleground. Ooo. Nice.

> : * The ones who oppose the Etherites would be the Verbana and the
> : Conservative Dreamspeakers, who find those Scientist bastards as bad as
> : those witch-burning maniacs in the Chorus, the Sahajiya (CoX), whom the
> : Etherites find 'morally deficient' (sex all the time? that's unhealthy!),
> : the Marauders (madmen! Someone get the straight-jackets!) and the Nephandi
> : (obviously). These people are usually pushed out from the Sphere, and
> : establish their own territories out of it. Of course, borders push one
> : another, and they occasionally fight.
>
> Well, Dreamspeakers and Verbena are usually totally alien
> Paradigm-wise... I know that too well ^_^ I think it is safe to
> assume they'd better be banned from any region where proper
> Science is to be used.

More like pushed out, but yes.

> : * The Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,
> : Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within the Order
> : of Reason find their place within the Sphere, and occasionally within Enemy
> : Territory as well. It depends on how each paradigm fits into the other. The
> : Brothers and the OoH are located where humans are located -- although not
> : exactly trusted by everyone, they're not exactly hunted, either. The Wu Lung
> : handle governance within the Oriental regions of the Sphere, while the
> : Batini and the Euthanatos serve as Secret Agents that police humanity within
> : the Sphere: both grudgingly work together, despite their shared history.
>
> Well, I don't think even technomantic Dreamspeakers would fit in
> well. They are way too mystick ^_^

Ah, no. Technomancer DSes would perfect a 'Spirit Hypothesis' -- all
objects have spirits slumbering or awake in them, and the DS, both
Conservative and Technomantic manipulate and perceive these spirits to
work their magic.

To Etherites, these guys would be like the Hermetics -- it's just a
'logical structure' to disguise the fact that they're working their
own version of 'Science'!

They'd be strange, but would probably find a niche somewhere --
probably in the maintenance and operation of artilects and artints
within the Sphere.

Of course, this means that there's a tie-into the Gaia hypothesis:
which might explain why we haven't won over the Earth yet.

<snip>

> : * There are about three or so morality factions that compete and bicker
> : within the Sphere itself: The Etherite 'Moral Calculus' (which the
> : traditional Etherite factions and ItX espouse), the Euthanatos-Batini
> : 'Wheel-Unity' moral system (which is followed, more or less, by Batini,
> : Euthanatos and Akashic Brotherhood) and... well... Everybody Else.
>
> Heh. Hm... Well, I think here we need to find out some more
> factions, I think... But for that I'd need to ponder a little
> (err, I'm sitting at work at the moment ^_^)

Oh, there are PLENTY of factions -- each craft and lodge is
represented in the universe. It's just that they follow three
different schools of thought -- much like the Traditions and the
Technocracy, except far looser.

<snip>

> : * Instead of the DW, Babbage and company create the Ether-Net, which spans
> : the Sphere and holds host to many factions.
>
> LOL. (Whenever I teach network courses, I have to suppress a big
> grin when I talk about the Ethernet specifications...)

Wanna do an alternate-world Turing that didn't get swallowed up by the
DW? :)

<snip>

> : * Real Space does exist: Space in the Material World is a barren, cold,
> : void. Most early attempts into space unknowingly involve stepping aside --
> : once they realized that, however, they stay in Umbral Ether, because
> : travel's far easier that way.
>
> Etherspace is always real fun, especially when you have the
> Golden Age planets around!

I'd bet that terraforming would probably start from the Umbra out --
colonies begin in the Umbral space within the the planet, and then
slowly enter the material. That's probably how Mars and Venus got
terraformed. Say hello to Barsoom! :D

> : * Anyone know how to incorporate solid-state electronics into the Etherite
> : Paradigm? I can't think of any way of doing it without introducing
> : Einsteinian physics.
>
> Who needs solid-state electronics? Etheric quantum transistors work
> just fine!

Bah. Fine. Except that won't you need some kind of relativistic theory
to fit in quantum physics?

Well, maybe not. Or maybe relativity only holds sway in Material
Space. Hmm, hmm, hmm.

> : * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?
>
> Well, the Green Faction (Verbena, Garou and their ilk) want to
> turn it back into that vision they had from a green planbet etc.
> The Etheric Society of cause isn't agreeing with that notion.
> And we all know the Nephandi want to destroy Earth Just Because,
> and the Marauders would like to carv their place there as it is
> more fun to do outrageous things when there are people around who
> watch...

Of course. I'd imagine that the spheres would intersect at Earth,
which means that, what, all magic is coincidental?

Whoah. Won't that unbalance things? Hmm.

> : * This section are for those who want to add in Werewolves, Vampires,
> : Hunters, Mummies, Changelings, Wraiths, Demons and Anything else:
>
> Well, I will pass this on - my reply is long enough already ^_^

I know. Don't think a lot of people would comment on this post because
it's so long :)

> Clear Ether!
> Stayka

Tariq Kamal

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 14, 2003, 12:17:40 PM5/14/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de>
: Well, it would be. Etherites don't know what they're doing can hurt

: people, I suppose. Proponents of the Moral Calculus occasionally
: forget that others have moral workinsg that might not agree with
: them...

What - we hurt people? We work towards a glorious future, where the
benefits of Science! will enlighten all Humankind and lead the to
the path towards Ascension! 8-)

: Basically, the Etherite majority is clueless. Most think the universe

: is there to be exploited or explored, without considering the
: consequence of such reckless action.

Heh, come on, our inventions are there to *help* people. Well, about
exploiting and exploring the universe - that is mainly the Ethernaut
faction, and they are bound to compet- err, work together with the
Void Engineers, of course.

: Which is an attitude that backfires everytime they try and deal with

: Umbrood Lords, Incarna and Outsiders.

Well, usually it's not so much dealing with them, but seeing to it
that they are kept Somewhere Out There (tm). Of course those Aliens
don't take it lightly when we cross their plans of invasion...

: Well, there'd be several Sphere's of influence, really. All would

: cross over Earth, which... hmm. This'd mean that the planet Earth
: would become a battleground. Ooo. Nice.

Heh. Care to elaborate a bit more about the Spheres of influence
you propose?

:> Well, Dreamspeakers and Verbena are usually totally alien

:> Paradigm-wise... I know that too well ^_^ I think it is safe to
:> assume they'd better be banned from any region where proper
:> Science is to be used.
: More like pushed out, but yes.

Well, I didn't want to put it that harshlish... Let's say "they
are convinced to find a place that suits them better"?

:> Well, I don't think even technomantic Dreamspeakers would fit in

:> well. They are way too mystick ^_^
: Ah, no. Technomancer DSes would perfect a 'Spirit Hypothesis' -- all
: objects have spirits slumbering or awake in them, and the DS, both
: Conservative and Technomantic manipulate and perceive these spirits to
: work their magic.

Well. They'd have quite some work ahead to put their strange
fantasies into neat Scientifical theories!!

: To Etherites, these guys would be like the Hermetics -- it's just a

: 'logical structure' to disguise the fact that they're working their
: own version of 'Science'!

Well, I can't see much "logic" in the Dreamspeakers'
assertions...

: They'd be strange, but would probably find a niche somewhere --

: probably in the maintenance and operation of artilects and artints
: within the Sphere.

Hm. Well, this might work ^_^

: Of course, this means that there's a tie-into the Gaia hypothesis:

: which might explain why we haven't won over the Earth yet.

I'm not so sure I should subscribe to this weird hypothesis. I
know there are Etherites who do, but frankly, I find them
somewhat deluded.

: Oh, there are PLENTY of factions -- each craft and lodge is

: represented in the universe. It's just that they follow three
: different schools of thought -- much like the Traditions and the
: Technocracy, except far looser.

Ah, now I see clearer.

:> LOL. (Whenever I teach network courses, I have to suppress a big

:> grin when I talk about the Ethernet specifications...)
: Wanna do an alternate-world Turing that didn't get swallowed up by the
: DW? :)

*g* Who says he got swallowed up? I'm sure this was just a big
propaganda gag of his to let the VAs find a reason to break off
the Union...

:> Etherspace is always real fun, especially when you have the

:> Golden Age planets around!
: I'd bet that terraforming would probably start from the Umbra out --
: colonies begin in the Umbral space within the the planet, and then
: slowly enter the material. That's probably how Mars and Venus got
: terraformed. Say hello to Barsoom! :D

Who wants to *terra*form the other planets? You can as well live
on the plains of Saturn or among the swamps of Venus or the
Jungles of Jupiter with a little application of Science! The
only thing you should not forget is to turn on your grav
compensator when you land on the big planets. Ah, I really have
to show you around in the caves of Uranus or the oceans of
Neptune, too...

:> Who needs solid-state electronics? Etheric quantum transistors work

:> just fine!
: Bah. Fine. Except that won't you need some kind of relativistic theory
: to fit in quantum physics?
: Well, maybe not. Or maybe relativity only holds sway in Material
: Space. Hmm, hmm, hmm.

See! Things are way easier when you look at them from the proper
Scientific angle!

:> Well, the Green Faction (Verbena, Garou and their ilk) want to

:> turn it back into that vision they had from a green planbet etc.
:> The Etheric Society of cause isn't agreeing with that notion.
:> And we all know the Nephandi want to destroy Earth Just Because,
:> and the Marauders would like to carv their place there as it is
:> more fun to do outrageous things when there are people around who
:> watch...
: Of course. I'd imagine that the spheres would intersect at Earth,
: which means that, what, all magic is coincidental?
: Whoah. Won't that unbalance things? Hmm.

Without a little strive, Mankind would become complacent. Just let
them fight a little to stay sharp!

: I know. Don't think a lot of people would comment on this post because

: it's so long :)

*g* Well, considering the topic I just *had* to reply ^_^

Clear Ether!
Stayka

PS: Strength 1 is a bitch when you try to get your brand new
computer out of the tightly fitting packaging, especially when
you don't want to destroy said packaging *grumbles*. I *really*
need to work on my knowledge about Correspondence...

Gasket

unread,

May 14, 2003, 7:02:12 PM5/14/03

Hi Tariq, this sounds so intriguing many people play etherites just to
emphasise the differences in their gadgets from the rest of (booring)
science. But how do they cope when exception is the rule?

Tariq Kamal wrote:
> Anyone who's read the Mage Storyteller's Guide from cover-to-cover might
> remember this. If you don't, it's in page 167. For those who don't have that
> book (get it if you can -- it's quite good, mainly because it does a lot for
> aspiring Storytellers and Players), here's a short precis:
>
> Gutenberg finishes printing press, owes money to a lot of people. One of
> them is a member of the Natural Philosopher's Guild (SoE predescessors),
> and offers to waive off the debt to Gutenberg, if only he'd print out this
> one book: the Kitab al-Alacir, which is, as you might know, is the
> cornerstone of Etherite philosophy.
>
> The book is mass-printed, and no one is able (for some reason) to stop
> people from reading it and getting ideas in their heads -- mostly about
> the wonders of Science! This, of course, happens WAY before the formation
> of the Order of Reason -- or maybe the OoR gets messed around and doesn't
> see this coming until it's too late.

Aren't Etherites still in the Union at this point? I saw them as edge
cutter and ground breakers inthe pre Convention era pushed out only when
the grip of Stasis got too much.

>
> So, by 1500, almost everyone in Europe subscribes to the Etherite
> paradigm. The consensus, of course, follows suit.
>
> I know at least one person who might be interested (oh, Stayka...) in this
> whole setting. The problem is, though, that I've realized that I'm basically
> trying to jump into the deep end: the setting itself can be so huge that no
> one in their right minds should try it.
>
> Yeah, it's like I'm trying to be Kurt Busiek when I have no idea what makes
> superheroes tick, basically :)

Who?

>
> Okay, so here are the issues that I'm facing:
>
> * Obviously, this isn't Your Typical White Wolf Setting: It isn't as
> hopeless, despair and apathy-ridden. Superficially, I'd like to go for a
> High Adventure through the Cosmos themes, although anyone probing deeper
> might just suddenly realize that things are much darker than they seem; as
> required by the Law of Alternate White-Wolf Settings.

Monde de Noir? n'est pas? Grubby whitecoats and rocket packs?

>
> * This means that people have gotten of the mudball, and into space,
> although certainly for different reasons: The Etherites want to do that
> because the potential for new conquests and resources is so great, and
> everyone else goes to space to get away from the Etherites. Just because
> you're a proponent of 'mystical science' doesn't mean you're NICE.

I always suspected that Doc Savage!

>
> * The Etherites are consensual: their brand of willworking is coincidental,
> at least within their territory. That's the whole idea of this setting,
> anyway -- within the territories you are aligned to, magic is coincidental:
> outside of it, it's vulgar. Makes going to war really hard.

Whatever keeps the Paradox down?

>
> * The ones who oppose the Etherites would be the Verbana and the
> Conservative Dreamspeakers, who find those Scientist bastards as bad as
> those witch-burning maniacs in the Chorus, the Sahajiya (CoX), whom the
> Etherites find 'morally deficient' (sex all the time? that's unhealthy!),
> the Marauders (madmen! Someone get the straight-jackets!) and the Nephandi
> (obviously). These people are usually pushed out from the Sphere, and
> establish their own territories out of it. Of course, borders push one
> another, and they occasionally fight.
>
> * The Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,
> Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within the Order
> of Reason find their place within the Sphere, and occasionally within Enemy
> Territory as well. It depends on how each paradigm fits into the other. The
> Brothers and the OoH are located where humans are located -- although not
> exactly trusted by everyone, they're not exactly hunted, either. The Wu Lung
> handle governance within the Oriental regions of the Sphere, while the
> Batini and the Euthanatos serve as Secret Agents that police humanity within
> the Sphere: both grudgingly work together, despite their shared history.

Give the Ngoma the Africas and have the Mongol tide never rolled back
but under pinned by the Dragon Wizards rigid Culture and Society?

>
> * The Conventions are generally within the Sphere themselves -- exceptions
> include the Conventions that make up the VE, who explore and chart the
> universe around them from unusable Void. Iteration X make up one of the
> 'transhuman' factions, while Progenitors learn to work with Etherite
> Science. Craftmasons disappear, only to reappear in high positions in
> government. High Guild Members realize that the amount of Science! coming in
> makes for good (albeit unstable) business, so they begin controlling the
> flow of commerce within the Sphere. The Cabal of Pure Thought try to make
> inroads into the Middle East and India, find the Euthanatos and Ahl-i-Batin
> waiting for them, and get slaughtered, assimilated, and reshaped into the
> Ivory Tower.

Confining the NWO to the Education and record keeping. Nice.

A World perhaps where the Ananasi and Ratkin form the largest Changer
factions and wipe out the wolves?

>
> - Vampires stay and leave. Unlike a lot of the other supes, most of the time
> they spend their time in space in cold sleep, because the sun and other
> stellar masses screw them up. Looks like Helios isn't the only one mad at
> you, son of Caine. Many vampires stay within the Sphere, because, hell,
> that's where the masses are at, and heck, there aren't as many lupines here
> as there are outside the Sphere.

Under license after propre experimentation has taken place for sure!

>
> - I'd really like to incorporate the Great Maelstroms into the Wraithly side
> of this setting. Problem is, I don't know what the hell Wraith is all about,
> save for the scant information I can get from all over the Internet. Anyone?

Let's see, um, ok, Charon does a wandering again the Heirarchy would
still exist the Shadowlands would still be a reflection of the living
world. Perhaps the Deathlords would never put down the Guild revolts and
the Guilds subsume the hierarchy. Spectres are less powerfull and the
Civilised Lands beyond decide to communicate with the Quick (no Dictum
Mortuum)This is of course a facade for the corruption slavery and horror
of the Dead.Maelstroms are caused by the Heretics and Haunters Allying
with the Spectres using Mysticism and Superstition to Undermine Guild
control.

>
> - Arcadia gets spit out from the Sphere. It's probably a planet or realm.
> Anyone who knows Changeling well can figure it out. Maybe they're like the
> djinns who get bored of the Invisible World and come out to play.
>
> - Mummy and Demon? Geez, you do it.

Amenti Still exist, Osiris is ejected from the Dark Kingdom of Sand by
VE incursuions but these mummies are projected into a world that has
forgotten Egypt without Horus or the Shemsu Heru.
Demons might be best left out....

>
> - There aren't any Hunters. Seriously. You think there would be any need for
> Hunters? Okay, so you can have a group of people who get Imbued by the
> Messengers. Dear lord, what a mess. I don't wanna think about it. YOU do it.
>
> Did I miss anything?

What about the Pointed Stick?

Cheers
Gasket.

>
> Tariq Kamal

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 14, 2003, 9:13:00 PM5/14/03

Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote in message

news:<b9tq74$cdc$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>...

> Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> : Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de>
> : Well, it would be. Etherites don't know what they're doing can hurt
> : people, I suppose. Proponents of the Moral Calculus occasionally
> : forget that others have moral workinsg that might not agree with
> : them...
>
> What - we hurt people? We work towards a glorious future, where the
> benefits of Science! will enlighten all Humankind and lead the to
> the path towards Ascension! 8-)

The prosecution rests its case, Your Honour :)

> : Basically, the Etherite majority is clueless. Most think the universe
> : is there to be exploited or explored, without considering the
> : consequence of such reckless action.
>
> Heh, come on, our inventions are there to *help* people. Well, about
> exploiting and exploring the universe - that is mainly the Ethernaut
> faction, and they are bound to compet- err, work together with the
> Void Engineers, of course.

Wasn't talking about JUST the universe, I suppose. The attitude
towards space resources bleeds in with how the 'sleepers' view any
potential wilderness -- like new fields of study, new extradimensional
entities, and unEnlightened folk from beyond the Horizon Fields...

You get what I mean, I suppose? It's like those Victorians and how
they viewed 'primitives'...

> : Which is an attitude that backfires everytime they try and deal with
> : Umbrood Lords, Incarna and Outsiders.
>
> Well, usually it's not so much dealing with them, but seeing to it
> that they are kept Somewhere Out There (tm). Of course those Aliens
> don't take it lightly when we cross their plans of invasion...

Etherspace is big :) There's plenty of room for interplanetary beings
to live in it. Granted, the really funky ones aren't seen as often as
they used to be...

And there's the 'ideosphere' -- that semi-real realm of Ideas,
Archetypes and Concepts.

> : Well, there'd be several Sphere's of influence, really. All would
> : cross over Earth, which... hmm. This'd mean that the planet Earth
> : would become a battleground. Ooo. Nice.
>
> Heh. Care to elaborate a bit more about the Spheres of influence
> you propose?

Simple. Etherites aren't the only ones who went into space. When the
Verbena and the others got pushed away from Earth, they decided to
move away to the realms outside the Etherite Sphere (that area
surrounded by the Horizon Field). Interestingly enough, one of the
places where all these people clash would seem to be Earth...

> :> Well, Dreamspeakers and Verbena are usually totally alien
> :> Paradigm-wise... I know that too well ^_^ I think it is safe to
> :> assume they'd better be banned from any region where proper
> :> Science is to be used.
> : More like pushed out, but yes.
>
> Well, I didn't want to put it that harshlish... Let's say "they
> are convinced to find a place that suits them better"?

My, my. For an Etherite you do have a good sense of PR ^_^

> :> Well, I don't think even technomantic Dreamspeakers would fit in
> :> well. They are way too mystick ^_^
> : Ah, no. Technomancer DSes would perfect a 'Spirit Hypothesis' -- all
> : objects have spirits slumbering or awake in them, and the DS, both
> : Conservative and Technomantic manipulate and perceive these spirits to
> : work their magic.
>
> Well. They'd have quite some work ahead to put their strange
> fantasies into neat Scientifical theories!!

Now who's sounding like a Technocrat? :) We leave the Akashics, Wu
Lung, Batini and Euthanatos well alone, because we know their theories
*work*.

Whatever fits the model, man. So long as it works.

> : To Etherites, these guys would be like the Hermetics -- it's just a
> : 'logical structure' to disguise the fact that they're working their
> : own version of 'Science'!
>
> Well, I can't see much "logic" in the Dreamspeakers'
> assertions...

Think of it as 'closed' and 'consistent', then. Everyone needs their
mental straps and harnesses, or else we'd risk going Marauder.

> : They'd be strange, but would probably find a niche somewhere --
> : probably in the maintenance and operation of artilects and artints
> : within the Sphere.
>
> Hm. Well, this might work ^_^

Interestingly, of course, they've also worked out a way to create
self-repair material. Granted, it's limited use now, but who knows...

> : Of course, this means that there's a tie-into the Gaia hypothesis:
> : which might explain why we haven't won over the Earth yet.
>
> I'm not so sure I should subscribe to this weird hypothesis. I
> know there are Etherites who do, but frankly, I find them
> somewhat deluded.

Geez. Thanks, Newton. Just because it doesn't think like a or as fast
as a human doesn't mean it isn't sentient. Talk to a VE and you'll see
what I mean.

<snip>

> :> LOL. (Whenever I teach network courses, I have to suppress a big
> :> grin when I talk about the Ethernet specifications...)
> : Wanna do an alternate-world Turing that didn't get swallowed up by the
> : DW? :)
>
> *g* Who says he got swallowed up? I'm sure this was just a big
> propaganda gag of his to let the VAs find a reason to break off
> the Union...

Well, maybe in canon WoD. Here, Turing would be someone who'd be as
big as Dante is in canon -- maybe even bigger, perhaps.

> :> Etherspace is always real fun, especially when you have the
> :> Golden Age planets around!
> : I'd bet that terraforming would probably start from the Umbra out --
> : colonies begin in the Umbral space within the the planet, and then
> : slowly enter the material. That's probably how Mars and Venus got
> : terraformed. Say hello to Barsoom! :D
>
> Who wants to *terra*form the other planets? You can as well live
> on the plains of Saturn or among the swamps of Venus or the
> Jungles of Jupiter with a little application of Science! The
> only thing you should not forget is to turn on your grav
> compensator when you land on the big planets. Ah, I really have
> to show you around in the caves of Uranus or the oceans of
> Neptune, too...

::cough::

A.C, you said 'tunnels of Uranus'. That's such a double entendre.

Aside from that, I suppose so. I would think Mercury, Mars and Luna
would get some forest cover and a working ecology. Sometimes you'd
want to be able to walk outside without having to resort to your
tools...

<snip>

> :> Well, the Green Faction (Verbena, Garou and their ilk) want to
> :> turn it back into that vision they had from a green planbet etc.
> :> The Etheric Society of cause isn't agreeing with that notion.
> :> And we all know the Nephandi want to destroy Earth Just Because,
> :> and the Marauders would like to carv their place there as it is
> :> more fun to do outrageous things when there are people around who
> :> watch...
> : Of course. I'd imagine that the spheres would intersect at Earth,
> : which means that, what, all magic is coincidental?
> : Whoah. Won't that unbalance things? Hmm.
>
> Without a little strive, Mankind would become complacent. Just let
> them fight a little to stay sharp!

...says the Etherite who hasn't been in a major battle yet :)

> : I know. Don't think a lot of people would comment on this post because
> : it's so long :)
>
> *g* Well, considering the topic I just *had* to reply ^_^

Well, if we can get all these bits together, I suggest we put it up in
the web, or something...

> Clear Ether!
> Stayka

Tariq Kamal

> PS: Strength 1 is a bitch when you try to get your brand new

> computer out of the tightly fitting packaging, especially when
> you don't want to destroy said packaging *grumbles*. I *really*
> need to work on my knowledge about Correspondence...

You'd need a lot of Correspondence. Try Forces -- telekinesis might be
a help, especially if you use an apparatus powered by PE instead of
your own muscles.

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 14, 2003, 9:46:52 PM5/14/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:
:> Heh, come on, our inventions are there to *help* people. Well, about

:> exploiting and exploring the universe - that is mainly the Ethernaut
:> faction, and they are bound to compet- err, work together with the
:> Void Engineers, of course.
: Wasn't talking about JUST the universe, I suppose. The attitude
: towards space resources bleeds in with how the 'sleepers' view any
: potential wilderness -- like new fields of study, new extradimensional
: entities, and unEnlightened folk from beyond the Horizon Fields...

Spacewards ho!

: You get what I mean, I suppose? It's like those Victorians and how
: they viewed 'primitives'...

Well, with a little help they can be made into a usable
workforce, of course ^_^

:> Well, usually it's not so much dealing with them, but seeing to it

:> that they are kept Somewhere Out There (tm). Of course those Aliens
:> don't take it lightly when we cross their plans of invasion...
: Etherspace is big :) There's plenty of room for interplanetary beings
: to live in it. Granted, the really funky ones aren't seen as often as
: they used to be...

Well, it is no problem when they keep to their regions... The
ones who try to invade the Earth Realm are the problem. Ah well,
and the ones who inhabit areas that are of certain interest to
Etherite oder Voider explorers

: And there's the 'ideosphere' -- that semi-real realm of Ideas,
: Archetypes and Concepts.

Yeah, thinking of some Freudian or Jungian stuff, this might get
nasty, too ^_^

:> Heh. Care to elaborate a bit more about the Spheres of influence

:> you propose?
: Simple. Etherites aren't the only ones who went into space. When the
: Verbena and the others got pushed away from Earth, they decided to
: move away to the realms outside the Etherite Sphere (that area
: surrounded by the Horizon Field). Interestingly enough, one of the
: places where all these people clash would seem to be Earth...

Ah, I see. Hm... We could put the Verbena on Venus. I think they
would fit nicely there, and not only because both names start with
Ve... ^_^

:> :> Well, Dreamspeakers and Verbena are usually totally alien

:> :> Paradigm-wise... I know that too well ^_^ I think it is safe to
:> :> assume they'd better be banned from any region where proper
:> :> Science is to be used.
:> : More like pushed out, but yes.

:> Well, I didn't want to put it that harshly... Let's say "they

:> are convinced to find a place that suits them better"?
: My, my. For an Etherite you do have a good sense of PR ^_^

*blushes deeply* Well, I guess Kev it quite a good teacher ^_^

Re: Dreamspeakers
:> Well. They'd have quite some work ahead to put their strange

:> fantasies into neat Scientifical theories!!
: Now who's sounding like a Technocrat? :) We leave the Akashics, Wu
: Lung, Batini and Euthanatos well alone, because we know their theories
: *work*.

Weeell... AC's Paradigm is pretty close to the Technocratic
views since from the start... There are just some pecularities
that clash, but otherwise, she'd be perfect Voider material ^_^

:> Well, I can't see much "logic" in the Dreamspeakers'

:> assertions...
: Think of it as 'closed' and 'consistent', then. Everyone needs their
: mental straps and harnesses, or else we'd risk going Marauder.

Well, in my opinion they have already pretty much turned Marauder ^_^

: Interestingly, of course, they've also worked out a way to create
: self-repair material. Granted, it's limited use now, but who knows...

You mean they put poor, unsuspecting alie- err, spirits in there
and force them to repair things as necessary? I think this is
against the aliens' personality rights!

: Geez. Thanks, Newton. Just because it doesn't think like a or as fast

: as a human doesn't mean it isn't sentient. Talk to a VE and you'll see
: what I mean.

*ponders* Yes... I think you might have a point there. Voiders
usually do count as sentient anyway...

Re: Turing
:> *g* Who says he got swallowed up? I'm sure this was just a big

:> propaganda gag of his to let the VAs find a reason to break off
:> the Union...
: Well, maybe in canon WoD. Here, Turing would be someone who'd be as
: big as Dante is in canon -- maybe even bigger, perhaps.

Maybe Dante and Turing actually met and sit in some quiet
netcorner and do interesting things to mess up people trying to
mess with the 'net?

:> Who wants to *terra*form the other planets? You can as well live

:> on the plains of Saturn or among the swamps of Venus or the
:> Jungles of Jupiter with a little application of Science! The
:> only thing you should not forget is to turn on your grav
:> compensator when you land on the big planets. Ah, I really have
:> to show you around in the caves of Uranus or the oceans of
:> Neptune, too...
: ::cough::
: A.C, you said 'tunnels of Uranus'. That's such a double entendre.

Eep! This was just *your* dirty mind!

: Aside from that, I suppose so. I would think Mercury, Mars and Luna

: would get some forest cover and a working ecology. Sometimes you'd
: want to be able to walk outside without having to resort to your
: tools...

Mars... Last I visited there it was an eerie world with haunting
red deserts where the Mars winds whispered of long lost
civilizations, the dynasties of the Martian kings and queens, and
the cities in which machines served their inhabitants to death...
As for Luna, well, if you step down the cracks into the crust of
Luna and below you can beholdthe remnants of atmosphere that are
collected in the deepest chasms, where the descendants of the old
Lunarians dwell...

:> : Of course. I'd imagine that the spheres would intersect at Earth,

:> : which means that, what, all magic is coincidental?
:> : Whoah. Won't that unbalance things? Hmm.
:> Without a little strive, Mankind would become complacent. Just let
:> them fight a little to stay sharp!
: ...says the Etherite who hasn't been in a major battle yet :)

*blushes* Well, but my Daddy told me of many... He definitely is
a space hero! I'm just a space hero in training...

: Well, if we can get all these bits together, I suggest we put it up in
: the web, or something...

Might be a fun idea ^_^ I did save the posts :-)

:> PS: Strength 1 is a bitch when you try to get your brand new

:> computer out of the tightly fitting packaging, especially when
:> you don't want to destroy said packaging *grumbles*. I *really*
:> need to work on my knowledge about Correspondence...
: You'd need a lot of Correspondence. Try Forces -- telekinesis might be
: a help, especially if you use an apparatus powered by PE instead of
: your own muscles.

Well, an application of basic physics helped already, too. I
just turned the huge parcel around and let gravity do the work
for me ^_^ As the packaging of the big tower was pretty tight
fitting, it went out very slowly... (Ah, my new Cosna (that's
her name) is a beauty! Neat silver tower with Athlon XP 2600, 1
GB RAM and two 120GB HDs as RAID mirror... Now I just need to
install the OS on her, and I still feel torn between SuSE, Debian
and Gentoo...)

Clear Ether!
Stayka

Asmodai

unread,

May 15, 2003, 3:02:59 AM5/15/03

Tariq, Stayka... you two are both too sick to live... I have just called a
team of Aberrnts from the Bleed to crush this little Ether world to bits...
I think the stones should have freedom and this is worse then a totaly
tehnocratic viewpoint!

Viva la Revolution!

--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asm...@post.hinet.hr
------------------------------------
"...I will save you Soul even if you die in the process..."

Asmodai

unread,

May 15, 2003, 3:27:46 AM5/15/03

Ok i finnaly took time to anwser this lenghty post... though it seems it
hasn't sparked taht much interest :)

> I know at least one person who might be interested (oh, Stayka...) in this
> whole setting. The problem is, though, that I've realized that I'm
basically
> trying to jump into the deep end: the setting itself can be so huge that
no
> one in their right minds should try it.

The setting is bizzare... though i think it may neatly tie in with the "Evil
Etherites" past post... I am realyl scared of waht would happen i nsucha
world when Hitler came to power... as much as Stayka claims that Etherites
would make a Utopia this would be just a techno WOD...

> Yeah, it's like I'm trying to be Kurt Busiek when I have no idea what
makes
> superheroes tick, basically :)

Well he had no idea when he started, so why bother :)

> * Obviously, this isn't Your Typical White Wolf Setting: It isn't as
> hopeless, despair and apathy-ridden. Superficially, I'd like to go for a
> High Adventure through the Cosmos themes, although anyone probing deeper
> might just suddenly realize that things are much darker than they seem; as
> required by the Law of Alternate White-Wolf Settings.

Well i still think that wouldn't change the fact that Pentex would exist,
Marauders were rampant (i guess there would be even more, sicne this sort of
a settign stiffles freedom ,and can make people a bit... edgy...), Nphandi
are still here...

> * This means that people have gotten of the mudball, and into space,
> although certainly for different reasons: The Etherites want to do that
> because the potential for new conquests and resources is so great, and
> everyone else goes to space to get away from the Etherites. Just because
> you're a proponent of 'mystical science' doesn't mean you're NICE.

Since yo uare doign this at 1500, i think you should refer to the Authority
#5 - #8 the "Shiftships" story arc covers quite nicely what would happen if
the humans got high technology in the Renessaince :)
Unliek msot peopel i know that Ethereites have no chane to make humans be
NICE... As for adventures in Etherspace.. .why are you even changing the
Earth :)

> * The Etherites are consensual: their brand of willworking is
coincidental,
> at least within their territory. That's the whole idea of this setting,
> anyway -- within the territories you are aligned to, magic is
coincidental:
> outside of it, it's vulgar. Makes going to war really hard.

Shudder... Dr. Mangele with True Magick, anyone?

> * The ones who oppose the Etherites would be the Verbana and the
> Conservative Dreamspeakers, who find those Scientist bastards as bad as
> those witch-burning maniacs in the Chorus, the Sahajiya (CoX), whom the
> Etherites find 'morally deficient' (sex all the time? that's unhealthy!),
> the Marauders (madmen! Someone get the straight-jackets!) and the Nephandi
> (obviously). These people are usually pushed out from the Sphere, and
> establish their own territories out of it. Of course, borders push one
> another, and they occasionally fight.

So people pushed from the sphere of influence would probably search for new
places to live... underwater and into space... that would be quite
interesting once the Etherites started explorinf the seabeds, they 'd meet
adapted magi that live there and rule there... quite soem nice conflict :)

> * The Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,
> Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within the
Order
> of Reason find their place within the Sphere, and occasionally within
Enemy
> Territory as well. It depends on how each paradigm fits into the other.
The
> Brothers and the OoH are located where humans are located -- although not
> exactly trusted by everyone, they're not exactly hunted, either. The Wu
Lung
> handle governance within the Oriental regions of the Sphere, while the
> Batini and the Euthanatos serve as Secret Agents that police humanity
within
> the Sphere: both grudgingly work together, despite their shared history.

Actualy here i must disagree... The Etherites were on their own at the time
(on the verge of joiniung the OoR) They wouldn't accept all these Paradigms
at all... they would probably create an alternative Union with them in
charge and the others assisting... They would consider all these you
mentioned as primitives and throwbacks... still with the right tricks some
of them might do better in the new paradigm by changing their perceptions...

> * The Conventions are generally within the Sphere themselves -- exceptions
> include the Conventions that make up the VE, who explore and chart the
> universe around them from unusable Void. Iteration X make up one of the
> 'transhuman' factions, while Progenitors learn to work with Etherite
> Science. Craftmasons disappear, only to reappear in high positions in
> government. High Guild Members realize that the amount of Science! coming
in
> makes for good (albeit unstable) business, so they begin controlling the
> flow of commerce within the Sphere. The Cabal of Pure Thought try to make
> inroads into the Middle East and India, find the Euthanatos and
Ahl-i-Batin
> waiting for them, and get slaughtered, assimilated, and reshaped into the
> Ivory Tower.

As i said... the OoR would have been formed... with the Etherites as their
leadership.. the intitiative was there... and the Etherite paradigm ruling
would be quite what they needed at the time (in the Renessaince they were
all crazy scientists)

> * Speaking of which, the Ministry of Swords handle the Batini, Euthanatos,
> and Ivory Tower. Batini operatives handle political manouvering, alongside
> the Craftmasons (whom they compete with). Euthanatos members handle
> assasination and 'removals'. Ivory Tower members... well, they handle the
> information, and are consummate bureaucrats.

Look up :)

> * There are about three or so morality factions that compete and bicker
> within the Sphere itself: The Etherite 'Moral Calculus' (which the
> traditional Etherite factions and ItX espouse), the Euthanatos-Batini
> 'Wheel-Unity' moral system (which is followed, more or less, by Batini,
> Euthanatos and Akashic Brotherhood) and... well... Everybody Else.

This is cute idea.. .but i still think the "Tehnocracy" would have been
formed... if a bit differently...

> * Outside the Sphere of course are the 'pro-Gaian' factions (Verbena,
> Conservative DS), 'Descension NOW!' factions (guess) and the Marauders,
> which don't really follow any form of morality.

From the Etherites perspectives, of course...

> * Instead of the DW, Babbage and company create the Ether-Net, which spans
> the Sphere and holds host to many factions.

Hmm actualy the Web was created by Turing... It requred his tragic death to
come into real being... Is it just me or in this world there are no VA's (me
starts to plan how to ruin this world)

> * Instead of the Avatar Storm, the Sphere is surrounded by something known
> as the Horizon Field. It's hard to cross that field either way. Anyone
> outside the Sphere (CoX, Verbana, Cons DS, Marauds and Neffies) has a hard
> time coming in, and it's hard to leave or enter. There are Gates
> (Anchorheads) dotting the border of the Horizon Field, but these are
guarded
> by the VEs.

Avatar Storm? What is that? Do you put that on your bread in the morning?

This settign probably wouldn't have had an Avatar storm...

> * Real Space does exist: Space in the Material World is a barren, cold,
> void. Most early attempts into space unknowingly involve stepping aside --
> once they realized that, however, they stay in Umbral Ether, because
> travel's far easier that way.

Can they differentiate them? The gauntlet is such that they tend to shift
from one to the other without any effort...

> * Anyone know how to incorporate solid-state electronics into the Etherite
> Paradigm? I can't think of any way of doing it without introducing
> Einsteinian physics.

Actualy there is none... unless you go for Etherites becoming a bit more
"focused" and going a bit more scientific (here Stayka screams in hapiness
:))

> * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?

Actualy if they are leading it has probalby been shaped as they liek and
forced into submisson... the others are trying to survive...

> * This section are for those who want to add in Werewolves, Vampires,
> Hunters, Mummies, Changelings, Wraiths, Demons and Anything else:

Riight...

> - Changers would, depending on type, stay in the Sphere (Glass Walkers,
> Corax, Nuwisha), leave the Sphere (well, almost everyone else) or become
> extinct (almost all Gurahl, save a few who terraform new worlds for the
> Verbena, and the Red Talons, except for those who manage to steal a few
> wolves and enter a few Garden Worlds).

Nuwisha would leave... there is noone more to teach if everyone leaves...

Most shifters would either leave or die in valiant attempts to stop the
Weaver from spreading... anyway i na few hundred years of livign like this
the wilderness and the animals they breed would die off... with poor
Shifters loosing thge "wolf"...

> - Vampires stay and leave. Unlike a lot of the other supes, most of the
time
> they spend their time in space in cold sleep, because the sun and other
> stellar masses screw them up. Looks like Helios isn't the only one mad at
> you, son of Caine. Many vampires stay within the Sphere, because, hell,
> that's where the masses are at, and heck, there aren't as many lupines
here
> as there are outside the Sphere.

ANd Etherites wouldn't try to eredicate these preyers upon man?

> - I'd really like to incorporate the Great Maelstroms into the Wraithly
side
> of this setting. Problem is, I don't know what the hell Wraith is all
about,
> save for the scant information I can get from all over the Internet.
Anyone?

Don't... we don't want the maelstorm... it gave as pantsy mummies, killed of
Wraith and then sweetend it up with the Avatar Storm... Leave the Dead in
peace :)

> - Arcadia gets spit out from the Sphere. It's probably a planet or realm.
> Anyone who knows Changeling well can figure it out. Maybe they're like the
> djinns who get bored of the Invisible World and come out to play.

HEY! YOu cannot do that... people still dream and wish and are creative...
some part of Aracaida would still be among people...

> - Mummy and Demon? Geez, you do it.

Twitch... i think the Etherites would trash the world enough and take it
away from Maa't that they would be conisderd evil by the Mummies...

Demons... feh... who needs them :)

> - There aren't any Hunters. Seriously. You think there would be any need
for
> Hunters? Okay, so you can have a group of people who get Imbued by the
> Messengers. Dear lord, what a mess. I don't wanna think about it. YOU do
it.

Actualy i think they would get their power early... there is no way the
Etherites would create Utopia (the people aren't receptive to livign in
peace and harmony) and soon many of the mwoudl start showing why they don't
live among humans and why their experiments are best left for underground
labs and outer space...

So the Hunters would save humanity from Rampant mages :)

> Did I miss anything?

The whole Middle Kingdom :)

Now seriously...The world may be nice to play in, but i still think that
there is no way to create a Utopia... Etherites are caleld "mad scientiists"
for a reason... and humanity really ins't receptive to realyl being all nice
and great to each other...

We'd end up with a World of Darkness anyway... and it would probably loo
kliek a perpetual Industrial Revolution...

Stayka deyAvemta

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May 15, 2003, 5:39:09 AM5/15/03

Asmodai <lo...@post.hr> wrote:
: Tariq, Stayka... you two are both too sick to live... I have just called a

: team of Aberrnts from the Bleed to crush this little Ether world to bits...

Heh. They have to find the proper universe first ^_^

: I think the stones should have freedom and this is worse then a totaly
: tehnocratic viewpoint!

The Stones? And what is so bad about a cool technological Utopia?
Science! for everybody :-))

: "...I will save you Soul even if you die in the process..."

I noticed ^_^

Asmodai

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May 15, 2003, 5:58:16 AM5/15/03

> : Tariq, Stayka... you two are both too sick to live... I have just called
a
> : team of Aberrnts from the Bleed to crush this little Ether world to
bits...
> Heh. They have to find the proper universe first ^_^

Oh look they are just bashing a neovictorian Etherite into pulp :)

> : I think the stones should have freedom and this is worse then a totaly
> : tehnocratic viewpoint!
> The Stones? And what is so bad about a cool technological Utopia?
> Science! for everybody :-))

Actualy even i couldn't remember what i was writing there... i guess it
should have been saying stories :)
It is just another rant for no good reason, but to put some counterpoint to
too much Etherism :)

> : "...I will save you Soul even if you die in the process..."
> I noticed ^_^

Only now? :)

Stayka deyAvemta

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May 15, 2003, 6:24:07 AM5/15/03

Asmodai <lo...@post.hr> wrote:
: Ok i finnaly took time to anwser this lenghty post... though it seems it

: hasn't sparked taht much interest :)

Well, the rest of the group is too awed by such a fantastic world.
Scientists unite!!

: The setting is bizzare... though i think it may neatly tie in

: with the "Evil Etherites" past post... I am realyl scared of
: waht would happen i nsucha world when Hitler came to power...

Well, I don't think that Hitler has anything to do with such a
setting. Actually he very likely would never have come into
power in the first place, as the social factors involved would
have looked pretty differently.

: as much as Stayka claims that Etherites would make a Utopia

: this would be just a techno WOD...

Hey, a Techo WoD *is* an Etherite Utopia!

: Well i still think that wouldn't change the fact that Pentex would exist,
: Marauders were rampant

Hm... I don't think there's be more Marauders than otherwise.

: (i guess there would be even more, sicne this sort of a settign

: stiffles freedom ,and can make people a bit... edgy...), Nphandi
: are still here...

I don't think it stifles freedom anymore than other WoD settings.
Imagine the Dreamspeakers or Verbena would get into power! Now
*that* would be a scary thought...

: Since yo uare doign this at 1500, i think you should refer to

: the Authority #5 - #8 the "Shiftships" story arc covers quite
: nicely what would happen if the humans got high technology in the
: Renessaince :)

Well, there are several SF novels were societies are described
that sport a gap between mindset and technology, AFAIR.

: Unliek msot peopel i know that Ethereites have no chane to make

: humans be NICE... As for adventures in Etherspace.. .why are
: you even changing the Earth :)

Well, Etherites come in a *lot* of different flavours. I think
such a setting might be moved along a lot by the Utopian faction.
Etherspace is more the domain of the Ethernauts, while the DW of
course holds quite some Etheric Cybernauts...

: Shudder... Dr. Mangele with True Magick, anyone?

Well, that would a some one from the Mad Scientists faction...
Remember, definitely not all Etherites fall into the category Mad
Scientists!

: So people pushed from the sphere of influence would probably search for new

: places to live... underwater and into space... that would be quite
: interesting once the Etherites started explorinf the seabeds, they 'd meet
: adapted magi that live there and rule there... quite soem nice conflict :)

Well, don't forget that the oceans and Deep Space are very much the
domain of the Voiders already, too.

Re: Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,

Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within
the Order of Reason

: Actualy here i must disagree... The Etherites were on their

: own at the time (on the verge of joiniung the OoR)

Actually the Etherites per se have a somewhat colourful history
with quite some changes of affiliation. They started out as a
sideline of the Order of Hermes, then made some somersaults
including the Artificers and ItX until they condensed into the
Electrodyne Engineers... So one would probably have to see them
as somewhat eccentric and brash group among the Artificers at
that time.

: They wouldn't accept all these Paradigms at all... they would

: probably create an alternative Union with them in charge and the
: others assisting...

Well, it would be a group that is very strong on the
technological outlook, IMHO. The Art of Science shtick became
more prominent later on, I'd say.

: They would consider all these you mentioned as primitives and

: throwbacks... still with the right tricks some of them might do
: better in the new paradigm by changing their perceptions...

As a matter of fact, I agree. The groups not embracing
Technology and Science would indeed be frowned at or looked at
with contempt, I guess. After all, the Etherites know which
Paradigm is best after all!

: As i said... the OoR would have been formed... with the

: Etherites as their leadership.. the intitiative was there...
: and the Etherite paradigm ruling would be quite what they needed
: at the time (in the Renessaince they were all crazy scientists)

Heh. I would say that even then there were Utopians around.
Someone has to infuse the world with a proper vision after all!

: This is cute idea.. .but i still think the "Tehnocracy" would have been

: formed... if a bit differently...

Yeah. More like the Futurity Alliance ^_^ No hindrances for cool
Science and Technology! Get rid of the TimeTable!

:> * Instead of the DW, Babbage and company create the Ether-Net, which spans

:> the Sphere and holds host to many factions.
: Hmm actualy the Web was created by Turing... It requred his tragic death to
: come into real being... Is it just me or in this world there are no VA's (me
: starts to plan how to ruin this world)

Well, the VAs in the canon WoD were an offshot of the Electrodyne
Engineers. As a matter of fact, Charles Babbage was supposed to
be an Electrodyne Engineer who then set up a group of his own
with the Difference Engineers.

So you can or cannot keep the Difference Engineers in this
projected Electropunk World.

: Avatar Storm? What is that? Do you put that on your bread in the morning?

: This settign probably wouldn't have had an Avatar storm...

Well, I would see to it that it hasn't ^_^

:> * Anyone know how to incorporate solid-state electronics into the Etherite

:> Paradigm? I can't think of any way of doing it without introducing
:> Einsteinian physics.
: Actualy there is none... unless you go for Etherites becoming
: a bit more "focused" and going a bit more scientific (here Stayka
: screams in hapiness :))

Indeed! Put some more science into Science!

:> * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?

: Actualy if they are leading it has probalby been shaped as they liek and
: forced into submisson... the others are trying to survive...

All's normal then...

: Most shifters would either leave or die in valiant attempts to stop the

: Weaver from spreading... anyway i na few hundred years of livign like this
: the wilderness and the animals they breed would die off... with poor
: Shifters loosing thge "wolf"...

Well, one could set up some reservations for them on Venus or so.
Maybe together with the Verbena and Dreamspeakers...

:> - Vampires stay and leave.
: ANd Etherites wouldn't try to eredicate these preyers upon man?

Well, not so much eradicate them. Collect them and dissect them. They
are interesting subjects for study, I'd say.

:> - Arcadia gets spit out from the Sphere. It's probably a planet or realm.

:> Anyone who knows Changeling well can figure it out. Maybe they're like the
:> djinns who get bored of the Invisible World and come out to play.
: HEY! YOu cannot do that... people still dream and wish and are creative...
: some part of Aracaida would still be among people...

Well, there are those rumours that the Changelings had a hand in the
building of Victoria Station...

: Actualy i think they would get their power early... there is no way the
: Etherites would create Utopia

Off *course* they would. An Etherite Utopia! The only drawback
would be that maybe some other people don't see this as the
coolest lifestyle ever ^_^

: (the people aren't receptive to livign in peace and harmony) and

: soon many of the mwoudl start showing why they don't live among
: humans and why their experiments are best left for underground
: labs and outer space...

It always depends on the experiments in question of course ^_^

: Now seriously...The world may be nice to play in, but i still

: think that there is no way to create a Utopia... Etherites are
: caleld "mad scientiists" for a reason...

Hey, the Mad Scientists are only *one* faction of the Etherites!

: and humanity really ins't receptive to realyl being all nice and
: great to each other...

That is another problem *sighs* Philistines!

Agent Groove

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May 15, 2003, 8:48:03 AM5/15/03

> Okay, so here are the issues that I'm facing:
>
> * Obviously, this isn't Your Typical White Wolf Setting: It isn't as
> hopeless, despair and apathy-ridden. Superficially, I'd like to go for a
> High Adventure through the Cosmos themes, although anyone probing deeper
> might just suddenly realize that things are much darker than they seem; as
> required by the Law of Alternate White-Wolf Settings.

This is a bad issue? This is a feature IMO, not a bug!

Eh, more Vampire-esque "everyone has to be a bad guy". Why not have the
Etherites actually be shining, bold heroes, who really are good guys, deep
down inside? I think a setting where Ace Rimmer and his ilk are the
definitions of what a Mage should be would be a hoot to play in.

Ace Rimmer... what a guy!

Sounds reasonable. For some reason, I have images in my head of an etheric
Captain Nemo, dressed with a sikh headdress (the original captain the Verne
stories was an indian nationalist, I think), in an ether-going nautilus a la
League of Extraordinary Gentleman.

I think I found my PC, if I ever play in this setting.

As you said before, the setting is so big that war simply wouldn't be worth
it. I think instead that Verbena and Dreamspeakers would find their own
ways to travel to Venus or Mars or wherever and set up shot, and be the
dangerous, primordial savages that intrepid explorers must face.

A further issues is how hostile Etheric sciences would be to the
environment. Since Ethical Calculus I presume would short circuit the
predatory capitalism we have on our own world, I'd guess that government may
well be a quasi-socialist, quasi-parlimentarian thing, with all sorts of
wild theories of government actually *working* (remember, this is Mage,
after all.) So the social factors that lead to wide-spread environmental
devastation wouldn't necessarily be there, which would lead to Dreamspeakers
and Verbena not necessarily being as hostile. Further, resources abound in
space, so the pristine places on Earth may well be left alone.

I'd imagine there'd be room within the meta-paradigm for victorian style
Golden Dawn Occultism (OOH) and exotic Martial Arts and asian mysteries (see
the anime Giant Robo for a great example of Akashic and Etherite paradigms
working together.) There may well even be an International Police, with
super-powered and two-fisted defenders of freedom and justice!

There seems that there wouldn't be any Union - they'd all be the Order of
Reason, except that the Conventions we're familiar with would have a strong
injection of dynamism and humanity, and wouldn't resemble the Conventions we
know in the current setting. I'm not even sure if the Artificers,
Progenitors or Void Engineers would even exist - the Sons of Ether can more
or less reproduce everything these guys do in an Electropunk setting. I can
see an Ivory Tower (academics) and Syndicate (JP Morgan style
industrialists),. however.

The Ministry may also have Akashic Brotherhood members as well.

>
> * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?

Nationalism. Instead of Mage factions, countries are waging a space race,
and if the Metaphysic of Magick is an open fact, governments may have their
favorite Mage factions
backing them, with different countries having colonies throught the sphere.

> * This section are for those who want to add in Werewolves, Vampires,
> Hunters, Mummies, Changelings, Wraiths, Demons and Anything else:

Werewolves - If there's not so much pressure on Earth (everyone's in space),
then things may not be that dire for Gaia. Changelings - somewhat less
Banal, and Knocker paradise! Kindred - destroyed during the witch hunts,
and monsters to be destroyed by intrepid two-fisted avengers a la the
Shadow. Wraiths? There may be seances to contact me dear old departed Mum,
but would be phsawed off as superstition, and the Wraith situation may well
be unchanged, except that the Midnight Express may well cruise throughout
the Sphere and through the Ether. Demons? Puhlease, doesn't mesh well with
the setting.

Stayka deyAvemta

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May 15, 2003, 9:14:14 AM5/15/03

Agent Groove <x...@zyx.net> wrote:
: Eh, more Vampire-esque "everyone has to be a bad guy". Why not have the

: Etherites actually be shining, bold heroes, who really are good guys, deep
: down inside?

Hey, we *are* the Good Guys! *shakes head* How comes people always
misunderstand us so badly...

I think a setting where Ace Rimmer and his ilk are the
: definitions of what a Mage should be would be a hoot to play in.
: Ace Rimmer... what a guy!

*hehe* Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!
(insert fitting music)

: Sounds reasonable. For some reason, I have images in my head

: of an etheric Captain Nemo, dressed with a sikh headdress (the
: original captain the Verne stories was an indian nationalist, I
: think), in an ether-going nautilus a la League of Extraordinary
: Gentleman.

Well, I guess the LoEG really caters to the Etherite Paradigm :-)
Add some 1920es SF pulp serials, and we can get going! And I
want zeppelins!!

: I think I found my PC, if I ever play in this setting.

Well, Dingo set up a WoD/League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Xover
at our IRC channel #agww... It's really fun, even though there
is only one Electrodyne Engineer involved...

: As you said before, the setting is so big that war simply wouldn't be worth

: it. I think instead that Verbena and Dreamspeakers would find their own
: ways to travel to Venus or Mars or wherever and set up shot, and be the
: dangerous, primordial savages that intrepid explorers must face.

Why do I have the sudden image of Dreamspeakers and Verbena
dancing around fires, singing wildly, writing runes and stuff
with sacrificial blood as bodypaint...

It should be obvious that thesy need to be taught more civilized
ways.

: A further issues is how hostile Etheric sciences would be to the

: environment. Since Ethical Calculus I presume would short circuit the
: predatory capitalism we have on our own world, I'd guess that government may
: well be a quasi-socialist, quasi-parlimentarian thing, with all sorts of
: wild theories of government actually *working* (remember, this is Mage,
: after all.) So the social factors that lead to wide-spread environmental
: devastation wouldn't necessarily be there, which would lead to Dreamspeakers
: and Verbena not necessarily being as hostile. Further, resources abound in
: space, so the pristine places on Earth may well be left alone.

Well, it depends. I can see quite some devastation caused by
'little' failures of experiments...

: I'd imagine there'd be room within the meta-paradigm for victorian style

: Golden Dawn Occultism (OOH) and exotic Martial Arts and asian mysteries (see
: the anime Giant Robo for a great example of Akashic and Etherite paradigms
: working together.) There may well even be an International Police, with
: super-powered and two-fisted defenders of freedom and justice!

Well, the Pulp faction of the Etherites would definitely love
that. Enter Doc Eon and his magnificent Trio!

: There seems that there wouldn't be any Union - they'd all be the Order of

: Reason, except that the Conventions we're familiar with would have a strong
: injection of dynamism and humanity, and wouldn't resemble the Conventions we
: know in the current setting. I'm not even sure if the Artificers,
: Progenitors or Void Engineers would even exist - the Sons of Ether can more
: or less reproduce everything these guys do in an Electropunk setting. I can
: see an Ivory Tower (academics) and Syndicate (JP Morgan style
: industrialists),. however.

Well, the Etherites were closely connected with the Artificers
already. Progenitors and Voiders claim their own, earlier
origin, but they might be simply absorbed by the Etherite
Paradigm.

:> * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?

: Nationalism. Instead of Mage factions, countries are waging a space race,
: and if the Metaphysic of Magick is an open fact, governments may have their
: favorite Mage factions
: backing them, with different countries having colonies throught the sphere.

Now that's an interesting notion! And of course there might be
disgruntled faction who try to excert control over governments,
trying to steer reality into some less Etheric directions.

Clear Ether!
Stayka (aka A.C.Newton ^_^)

Tariq Kamal

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May 15, 2003, 5:11:22 PM5/15/03

"Asmodai" <lo...@post.hr> wrote in news:b9vob9$aocb$1...@as201.hinet.hr:

> From: "Asmodai" <lo...@post.hr>
> Newsgroups: alt.games.whitewolf
> Subject: Re: [Mage: LONG] An alternative electropunk setting
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:58:16 +0200
> Message-ID: <b9vob9$aocb$1...@as201.hinet.hr>
> (UTC) X-Priority: 3
>
>> : Tariq, Stayka... you two are both too sick to live... I have just
>> : called
>> : a team of Aberrnts from the Bleed to crush this little Ether world
>> :to bits...
>> Heh. They have to find the proper universe first ^_^
> Oh look they are just bashing a neovictorian Etherite into pulp :)

Geez. What are you, Mister Plot Device? :) Trans-universal travel,
MASSIVE Mind control... wow.

>
>> : I think the stones should have freedom and this is worse then a
>> : totaly tehnocratic viewpoint!
>> The Stones? And what is so bad about a cool technological Utopia?
>> Science! for everybody :-))

What? What? It basically means that the Etherites control the paradigm.
I'm not sure that it's such a good idea, myself. Though Stayka seems to
have a better grasp on what worlds this particular universe should
have...

But it's hardly a Utopia. I'd bet there'd be plenty of complaints from
the Verbana, Dreamspeakers, shifters, shamans and Hermetics. Not to
forget politics. Stayka's probably wetting herself, thinking about all
those places to explore, but there's more to it than swanning around in
space like a frickin' tourist.

<snip>

Oh. We've run out of message.

Tariq Kamal

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May 15, 2003, 5:22:39 PM5/15/03

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>
> Hi Tariq, this sounds so intriguing many people play etherites just to
> emphasise the differences in their gadgets from the rest of (booring)
> science. But how do they cope when exception is the rule?

That's the point of it, I think. It's basically an exercise of 'how much
can the Etherites tolerate' and 'What happens when the dreamers get in

<snip>

> Aren't Etherites still in the Union at this point? I saw them as edge
> cutter and ground breakers inthe pre Convention era pushed out only
> when the grip of Stasis got too much.

Hmm. According to the canon timeline, anyway. I'm sure we'd work out
something.

> Who?

Ohmygod. Busiek. DUDE. Astro City. DUDE!

Oh. Right. Kurt Busiek's a comic-book writer who did Astro City, a remake
of the superhero genre that tries to... well, be internally consistent
and, well... coherent.

>>
>> Okay, so here are the issues that I'm facing:
>>
>> * Obviously, this isn't Your Typical White Wolf Setting: It isn't as
>> hopeless, despair and apathy-ridden. Superficially, I'd like to go
>> for a High Adventure through the Cosmos themes, although anyone
>> probing deeper might just suddenly realize that things are much
>> darker than they seem; as required by the Law of Alternate White-Wolf
>> Settings.
> Monde de Noir? n'est pas? Grubby whitecoats and rocket packs?

Well, not ALL of them, geez :)

<snip>

>> * The Etherites are consensual: their brand of willworking is
>> coincidental, at least within their territory. That's the whole idea
>> of this setting, anyway -- within the territories you are aligned to,
>> magic is coincidental: outside of it, it's vulgar. Makes going to war
>> really hard.
> Whatever keeps the Paradox down?

Hmm. Well, paradox is supposed to be a reaction of the Tellurian from
things that would violate it. Part of the Tellurian (some people would
argue ALL of it) is the Consensus. If people can buy it, then Paradox
doesn't hit.

The universe is more dynamic than canon, and is only static at certain
points. For example, as before, Hermetics cannot summon dragons, and
Nodes can't be made by non-Etheric means, which are horrifyingly hard and
complex.

<snip>

> Confining the NWO to the Education and record keeping. Nice.

That's what the NWO was originally for, anyway, if I remember reading
GttTech.

And journalism. Don't forget journalism.

>> - Changers would, depending on type, stay in the Sphere (Glass
>> Walkers, Corax, Nuwisha), leave the Sphere (well, almost everyone
>> else) or become extinct (almost all Gurahl, save a few who terraform
>> new worlds for the Verbena, and the Red Talons, except for those who
>> manage to steal a few wolves and enter a few Garden Worlds).
> A World perhaps where the Ananasi and Ratkin form the largest Changer
> factions and wipe out the wolves?

Not bad. At least, within the Sphere. Outside of it, maybe not.

And of course, the Nagah (GO NAGAH!) are EVERYWHERE...

>> - Vampires stay and leave. Unlike a lot of the other supes, most of
>> the time they spend their time in space in cold sleep, because the
>> sun and other stellar masses screw them up. Looks like Helios isn't
>> the only one mad at you, son of Caine. Many vampires stay within the
>> Sphere, because, hell, that's where the masses are at, and heck,
>> there aren't as many lupines here as there are outside the Sphere.
> Under license after propre experimentation has taken place for sure!

No. I don't think the Ventrue would ever stand for that.

>> - I'd really like to incorporate the Great Maelstroms into the
>> Wraithly side of this setting. Problem is, I don't know what the hell
>> Wraith is all about, save for the scant information I can get from
>> all over the Internet. Anyone?
> Let's see, um, ok, Charon does a wandering again the Heirarchy would
> still exist the Shadowlands would still be a reflection of the living
> world. Perhaps the Deathlords would never put down the Guild revolts
> and the Guilds subsume the hierarchy. Spectres are less powerfull and
> the Civilised Lands beyond decide to communicate with the Quick (no
> Dictum Mortuum)This is of course a facade for the corruption slavery
> and horror of the Dead.Maelstroms are caused by the Heretics and
> Haunters Allying with the Spectres using Mysticism and Superstition to
> Undermine Guild control.

Replace Hermetics with Verbana. Make the Maelstroms happen during Great
Wars (heh. Three Interstellar Wars), when the Verbana and shifters decide
to try and retake Earth and KILL EVERYONE.

Yes, it might work.

>> - Arcadia gets spit out from the Sphere. It's probably a planet or
>> realm. Anyone who knows Changeling well can figure it out. Maybe
>> they're like the djinns who get bored of the Invisible World and come
>> out to play.
>>
>> - Mummy and Demon? Geez, you do it.
> Amenti Still exist, Osiris is ejected from the Dark Kingdom of Sand by
> VE incursuions but these mummies are projected into a world that has
> forgotten Egypt without Horus or the Shemsu Heru.
> Demons might be best left out....

If you say so. Hmm. This might work.

>> - There aren't any Hunters. Seriously. You think there would be any
>> need for Hunters? Okay, so you can have a group of people who get
>> Imbued by the Messengers. Dear lord, what a mess. I don't wanna think
>> about it. YOU do it.
>>
>> Did I miss anything?
> What about the Pointed Stick?

Guh?

> Cheers
> Gasket.

Tariq Kamal

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 15, 2003, 5:53:55 PM5/15/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: What? What? It basically means that the Etherites control the paradigm.

: I'm not sure that it's such a good idea, myself. Though Stayka seems to
: have a better grasp on what worlds this particular universe should
: have...

*g* Well, my own SF stories are crowded with people who would
make perfect Etherites ^_^ (And much of the stuff was written
long before there was any WoD at all *g*) So I just need to think
of what I did in my HdF universe (Hueter des Friedens, "Keepers
of Peace" - no relationship whatsoever with the guys from
Farscape, BTW) and project it into the WoD, then I have plenty of
Etherstuff rigt away :-)

: But it's hardly a Utopia. I'd bet there'd be plenty of complaints from

: the Verbana, Dreamspeakers, shifters, shamans and Hermetics. Not to
: forget politics.

Well, sure .-)

: Stayka's probably wetting herself, thinking about all

: those places to explore, but there's more to it than swanning around in
: space like a frickin' tourist.

Actually my HdF stories were a lot about morality, too. How much
peacekeeping is good for the Four Galaxies, and who judges who is
right or wrong anyway...? The whole story universe wasn't helped
by the Keepers working under the direction of a sentient computer
of whom no one knew what her agendas truly were...

: Oh. We've run out of message.

Hehe.

BTW, I did get that digital camera! As threatened, here are photos
of one of my Mage T-Shirts. (The first one, an SoE T-shirt, is
currently in the laundry, sorry ^_^)
http://stayka.keyspace.de/sqhome/wod/kram/wod-misc.html#t-shirt

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 15, 2003, 5:59:01 PM5/15/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> Confining the NWO to the Education and record keeping. Nice.

: That's what the NWO was originally for, anyway, if I remember reading
: GttTech.
: And journalism. Don't forget journalism.

*g* Did I mention that IRL I work as a freelance journalist for
computer mags?

:> A World perhaps where the Ananasi and Ratkin form the largest Changer

:> factions and wipe out the wolves?
: Not bad. At least, within the Sphere. Outside of it, maybe not.

Well, Ratkin should probably be able to thrive and multiply
everywhere ^_^

: And of course, the Nagah (GO NAGAH!) are EVERYWHERE...

LOL, everytime I see "Nagah", my brain shorts out and I think
"Naga the Serpent" from Slayers ^_^

Be seeing you!

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 15, 2003, 7:25:40 PM5/15/03

> From: "Agent Groove" <x...@zyx.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.games.whitewolf
> References: <9bfdf49c.03051...@posting.google.com>

> Subject: Re: [Mage: LONG] An alternative electropunk setting

> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:48:03 GMT

<snip>

>> * This means that people have gotten of the mudball, and into space,
>> although certainly for different reasons: The Etherites want to do
>> that because the potential for new conquests and resources is so
>> great, and everyone else goes to space to get away from the
>> Etherites. Just because you're a proponent of 'mystical science'
>> doesn't mean you're NICE.
>

> Eh, more Vampire-esque "everyone has to be a bad guy". Why not have
> the Etherites actually be shining, bold heroes, who really are good

> guys, deep down inside? I think a setting where Ace Rimmer and his

> ilk are the definitions of what a Mage should be would be a hoot to
> play in.
>
> Ace Rimmer... what a guy!

I'm sure :) I'll just handle this bit below.

>> * The Etherites are consensual: their brand of willworking is
> coincidental,
>> at least within their territory. That's the whole idea of this
>> setting, anyway -- within the territories you are aligned to, magic
>> is
> coincidental:
>> outside of it, it's vulgar. Makes going to war really hard.
>

> Sounds reasonable. For some reason, I have images in my head of an
> etheric Captain Nemo, dressed with a sikh headdress (the original
> captain the Verne stories was an indian nationalist, I think), in an
> ether-going nautilus a la League of Extraordinary Gentleman.
>

> I think I found my PC, if I ever play in this setting.

Am tempted to play something like this myself :)

>> * The ones who oppose the Etherites would be the Verbana and the
>> Conservative Dreamspeakers, who find those Scientist bastards as bad
>> as those witch-burning maniacs in the Chorus, the Sahajiya (CoX),
>> whom the Etherites find 'morally deficient' (sex all the time? that's
>> unhealthy!), the Marauders (madmen! Someone get the
>> straight-jackets!) and the Nephandi (obviously). These people are
>> usually pushed out from the Sphere, and establish their own
>> territories out of it. Of course, borders push one another, and they
>> occasionally fight.
>

> As you said before, the setting is so big that war simply wouldn't be
> worth it. I think instead that Verbena and Dreamspeakers would find
> their own ways to travel to Venus or Mars or wherever and set up shot,
> and be the dangerous, primordial savages that intrepid explorers must
> face.

Maybe. Hmm. To be honest, I can't think of any way we'd be able to get an
interstellar war going, unless we multipy the current population of this
setting by a few hundred times, and make sure that resources are
scarce...

On the other hand, there'd be plenty of small wars and 'police actions'
against pro-Gaian, Marauder and Nephandic communities. So there's still
that for unpleasantness.

> A further issues is how hostile Etheric sciences would be to the
> environment. Since Ethical Calculus I presume would short circuit the
> predatory capitalism we have on our own world, I'd guess that
> government may well be a quasi-socialist, quasi-parlimentarian thing,
> with all sorts of wild theories of government actually *working*
> (remember, this is Mage, after all.)

Agreed. Which would frustrate the industrialists and the money men, but
they can't have everything...

> So the social factors that lead
> to wide-spread environmental devastation wouldn't necessarily be
> there, which would lead to Dreamspeakers and Verbena not necessarily
> being as hostile. Further, resources abound in space, so the pristine
> places on Earth may well be left alone.

Mmm. Point noted. So the conflict might lie more in cultural and economic
spheres, and not in terms of mere physical resources like land and oil
(or quint).

We'd probably see Dreamspeaker communities bemoaning the fact that not
one of their kids are interested in the Old Ways any more...

Which might give reason for a lot of people to leave.

>> * The Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,
>> Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within the
>> Order of Reason find their place within the Sphere, and occasionally
>> within Enemy Territory as well. It depends on how each paradigm fits
>> into the other.
>> The Brothers and the OoH are located where humans are located --
>> although not exactly trusted by everyone, they're not exactly hunted,
>> either. The Wu Lung handle governance within the Oriental regions of
>> the Sphere, while the Batini and the Euthanatos serve as Secret Agents
>> that police humanity within the Sphere: both grudgingly work together,
>> despite their shared history.
>

> I'd imagine there'd be room within the meta-paradigm for victorian

> style Golden Dawn Occultism (OOH)...

But not any of the older Sumerian and Aramaic rituals, I think. Nothing
like the summoning of dragons, storms or fireballs. I suspect the OoH's
focus Sphere might drift away from Forces and more into Spheres like
Entropy, Spirit and Mind.

> ...and exotic Martial Arts and asian

> mysteries (see the anime Giant Robo for a great example of Akashic and
> Etherite paradigms working together.) There may well even be an
> International Police, with super-powered and two-fisted defenders of
> freedom and justice!

Sw33t!

>> * The Conventions are generally within the Sphere themselves --
>> exceptions include the Conventions that make up the VE, who explore
>> and chart the universe around them from unusable Void. Iteration X
>> make up one of the 'transhuman' factions, while Progenitors learn to
>> work with Etherite Science. Craftmasons disappear, only to reappear
>> in high positions in government. High Guild Members realize that the
>> amount of Science! coming in makes for good (albeit unstable)
>> business, so they begin controlling the flow of commerce within the
>> Sphere. The Cabal of Pure Thought try to make inroads into the Middle
>> East and India, find the Euthanatos and Ahl-i-Batin
>> waiting for them, and get slaughtered, assimilated, and reshaped into
>> the Ivory Tower.
>

> There seems that there wouldn't be any Union - they'd all be the Order
> of Reason, except that the Conventions we're familiar with would have
> a strong injection of dynamism and humanity, and wouldn't resemble the
> Conventions we know in the current setting. I'm not even sure if the

> Artificers, Progenitors or Void Engineers would even exist...

They would. It's a matter of their attitude, I should think. Unlike
mainstream Etherites, the Artificers would probably attempt to transcend
their bodies, projecting themselves into the Ether-Net and turning their
bodies into mechanical Scientific constructs. Surprisingly, this doesn't
necessarily make them any less human -- although plenty of Artificers
would become amoral and resemble more our Technocratic ItX friends.

The Proggies would still be the same, except that their focus now turns
almost to protecting and preserving life. Almost any Scienties who takes
the Hippocratic Oath is eligible to become a Progenitor.

Stayka's character would probably be the kind of person to join this
universe's version of VE, really. That's all I can say. Unlike a lot of
Etherites back home (who may have responsibilities back home, or may not
want to leave comforting surroundings), VEs would either be made of
people who wish to defend the Earth from Things Above and Below, but also
those who wish to explore. Depending on the size of the actual setting (I
was originally thinking 'interstellar', but now I'm not so sure), they'd
either be the first to travel to the stars or the ones who have traveled
the furthest.

> ...the Sons

> of Ether can more or less reproduce everything these guys do in an
> Electropunk setting. I can see an Ivory Tower (academics) and
> Syndicate (JP Morgan style industrialists),. however.

Academics and Press for the Ivory Towers, really. But yeah.

>> * Speaking of which, the Ministry of Swords handle the Batini,
>> Euthanatos, and Ivory Tower. Batini operatives handle political
>> manouvering, alongside the Craftmasons (whom they compete with).
>> Euthanatos members handle assasination and 'removals'. Ivory Tower
>> members... well, they handle the information, and are consummate
>> bureaucrats.
>
> The Ministry may also have Akashic Brotherhood members as well.

Agreed. Not a lot, since many have other things to do.

>> * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?
>
> Nationalism. Instead of Mage factions, countries are waging a space
> race, and if the Metaphysic of Magick is an open fact, governments may
> have their favorite Mage factions backing them, with different
> countries having colonies throught the sphere.

Perfect! I could just kiss you :)

And this brings up the issue about Etherites being good guys and bad
guys. As it is, I suspect the good or bad of what you do in this setting
might be less related to your mystical affiliation, and more with what
nation you belong to. For example, you might be a Dreamspeaker Shaman
(NOT Technoshaman, just to make a point) under the British Ministry of
Swords, but you're a Good Guy, while that Etherite Utopian might belong
to <insert favourite nation here> and would obviously be a troublemaking
Evil Bastard.

I'd even suspect that America and Australia might actually be more
Verbena and Dreamspeaker-like, really, and that China and Japan might
still retain their traditional forms of rulership, but with the Advances
of Science to help them get ahead.

>> * This section are for those who want to add in Werewolves, Vampires,
>> Hunters, Mummies, Changelings, Wraiths, Demons and Anything else:
>
> Werewolves - If there's not so much pressure on Earth (everyone's in

> space), then things may not be that dire for Gaia...

No, but they MIGHT be fighting for survival. I'd imagine the Red Talons
making things worse for the werewolves by tarnishing their image, so
they'd probably be clustered in pro-Gaia territories for survival.

On the other hand, there would be a few Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers
around the humans, trying to keep their existences a secret.

> ...Changelings - somewhat less Banal, and Knocker paradise! Kindred -

> destroyed during the witch hunts, and monsters to be destroyed by
> intrepid two-fisted avengers a la the Shadow.

Not necessarily. Unless vampires are remarkably stupid and careless, I'd
say more than a few would integrate themselves into Etherite society.
There would be less Sabbat around, however, and most would be obsessed
with their own lives, and not try and take over the world or whatever
they do in V:tM. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ministry of Swords had
vampire personnel, or... for a sinister turn, a vampire leading it.

> Wraiths? There may be seances to contact me dear old departed Mum...

For some reason I keep thinking of Hellboy, and the occasional ectoplasm-
manifesting medium. I should think that ectoplasm has a place in Etherite
science :)

<snip>

> ...the Midnight Express may well cruise throughout the Sphere and
> through the Ether.

Nice. They'd probably contribute to the 'space-ghost' legends :)

> Demons? Puhlease, doesn't mesh well with the setting.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

> CB

Hmm. What does that stand for, anyway?

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 15, 2003, 8:33:12 PM5/15/03

Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote in

news:ba12j5$5t3$2...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de:

> Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>:> Confining the NWO to the Education and record keeping. Nice.
>: That's what the NWO was originally for, anyway, if I remember reading
>: GttTech.
>: And journalism. Don't forget journalism.
>
> *g* Did I mention that IRL I work as a freelance journalist for
> computer mags?

Hmm. No, you didn't. Me? I'm a bum / student, with a major in Comp. Sci
:)

Any ideas on what a 'new' Ivory Tower member would look like, if they
weren't in the bureaucratic and educational area?

<snip>

>: And of course, the Nagah (GO NAGAH!) are EVERYWHERE...
>
> LOL, everytime I see "Nagah", my brain shorts out and I think
> "Naga the Serpent" from Slayers ^_^

That reference passed me by, I'm afraid :)

> Be seeing you!
> Stayka

Tariq Kamal

Bob

unread,

May 15, 2003, 10:09:39 PM5/15/03

Hi,

Stayka deyAvemta wrote:
> Asmodai <lo...@post.hr> wrote:
> : Ok i finnaly took time to anwser this lenghty post... though it seems it
> : hasn't sparked taht much interest :)

Sparking and sparking Sir!

>
> Well, the rest of the group is too awed by such a fantastic world.
> Scientists unite!!
>

> Re: Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,
> Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within
> the Order of Reason
>
> : Actualy here i must disagree... The Etherites were on their
> : own at the time (on the verge of joiniung the OoR)
>
> Actually the Etherites per se have a somewhat colourful history
> with quite some changes of affiliation. They started out as a
> sideline of the Order of Hermes, then made some somersaults
> including the Artificers and ItX until they condensed into the
> Electrodyne Engineers... So one would probably have to see them
> as somewhat eccentric and brash group among the Artificers at
> that time.

From Aretus and Parmenides to Golo of Verditius via Bright Lions to
Polidori to the Electrodyne Engineers thence to replace the Solificati.
Would the Solificati have left the 9 in this paradigm?

>
> : They wouldn't accept all these Paradigms at all... they would
> : probably create an alternative Union with them in charge and the
> : others assisting...
>
> Well, it would be a group that is very strong on the
> technological outlook, IMHO. The Art of Science shtick became
> more prominent later on, I'd say.

Surely not with such a cutting edge view from the start. Even Golo would
have appreciated the Art!

>
> : They would consider all these you mentioned as primitives and
> : throwbacks... still with the right tricks some of them might do
> : better in the new paradigm by changing their perceptions...
>
> As a matter of fact, I agree. The groups not embracing
> Technology and Science would indeed be frowned at or looked at
> with contempt, I guess. After all, the Etherites know which
> Paradigm is best after all!
>
> : As i said... the OoR would have been formed... with the
> : Etherites as their leadership.. the intitiative was there...
> : and the Etherite paradigm ruling would be quite what they needed
> : at the time (in the Renessaince they were all crazy scientists)

And the cabal and High guild just go along with this?

>
> Heh. I would say that even then there were Utopians around.
> Someone has to infuse the world with a proper vision after all!
>
> : This is cute idea.. .but i still think the "Tehnocracy" would have been
> : formed... if a bit differently...
>
> Yeah. More like the Futurity Alliance ^_^ No hindrances for cool
> Science and Technology! Get rid of the TimeTable!
>
> :> * Instead of the DW, Babbage and company create the Ether-Net, which spans
> :> the Sphere and holds host to many factions.
> : Hmm actualy the Web was created by Turing... It requred his tragic death to
> : come into real being... Is it just me or in this world there are no VA's (me
> : starts to plan how to ruin this world)
>
> Well, the VAs in the canon WoD were an offshot of the Electrodyne
> Engineers. As a matter of fact, Charles Babbage was supposed to
> be an Electrodyne Engineer who then set up a group of his own
> with the Difference Engineers.

When is Mage Victorian coming out anyway?

>
> So you can or cannot keep the Difference Engineers in this
> projected Electropunk World.

Difference Engineers with Etheric Engines kind of an off shoot of the
Pythagori rather than Babbage.

>
> : Avatar Storm? What is that? Do you put that on your bread in the morning?
> : This settign probably wouldn't have had an Avatar storm...
>
> Well, I would see to it that it hasn't ^_^

Avatar Storm great with toast! Something the revised Wod could do without.

>
> :> * Anyone know how to incorporate solid-state electronics into the Etherite
> :> Paradigm? I can't think of any way of doing it without introducing
> :> Einsteinian physics.
> : Actualy there is none... unless you go for Etherites becoming
> : a bit more "focused" and going a bit more scientific (here Stayka
> : screams in hapiness :))
>
> Indeed! Put some more science into Science!

Electronics is too much of an itX backward step. Would ItX exist would
they have ever made contact with Authocthonia?

>
> :> * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?
> : Actualy if they are leading it has probalby been shaped as they liek and
> : forced into submisson... the others are trying to survive...
>
> All's normal then...
>
> : Most shifters would either leave or die in valiant attempts to stop the
> : Weaver from spreading... anyway i na few hundred years of livign like this
> : the wilderness and the animals they breed would die off... with poor
> : Shifters loosing thge "wolf"...
>
> Well, one could set up some reservations for them on Venus or so.
> Maybe together with the Verbena and Dreamspeakers...

Come see the last remaining Wolf people don't get too near the cage
there young master!

>
> :> - Vampires stay and leave.
> : ANd Etherites wouldn't try to eredicate these preyers upon man?
>
> Well, not so much eradicate them. Collect them and dissect them. They
> are interesting subjects for study, I'd say.

Of course and once the Etherite Authorities know they exist it is under
licence or Modern Massassa War! This time with Arc lamps and Electro goads!

>
> :> - Arcadia gets spit out from the Sphere. It's probably a planet or realm.
> :> Anyone who knows Changeling well can figure it out. Maybe they're like the
> :> djinns who get bored of the Invisible World and come out to play.
> : HEY! YOu cannot do that... people still dream and wish and are creative...
> : some part of Aracaida would still be among people...
>
> Well, there are those rumours that the Changelings had a hand in the
> building of Victoria Station...

But would they still have an effect beyond Luna?

>
> : Actualy i think they would get their power early... there is no way the
> : Etherites would create Utopia
>
> Off *course* they would. An Etherite Utopia! The only drawback
> would be that maybe some other people don't see this as the
> coolest lifestyle ever ^_^

Fetch the Ivory Tower for re-Education!

>
> : (the people aren't receptive to livign in peace and harmony) and
> : soon many of the mwoudl start showing why they don't live among
> : humans and why their experiments are best left for underground
> : labs and outer space...
>
> It always depends on the experiments in question of course ^_^
>
> : Now seriously...The world may be nice to play in, but i still
> : think that there is no way to create a Utopia... Etherites are
> : caleld "mad scientiists" for a reason...
>
> Hey, the Mad Scientists are only *one* faction of the Etherites!

Madness is in the Eye of the beholder would you have Popper and James in
this world let alone Freud and Skinner?

>
> : and humanity really ins't receptive to realyl being all nice and
> : great to each other...

There seems to be a tone of Brazil and 1984 to this Utopia but isn't
there always.

>
> That is another problem *sighs* Philistines!

Prosecution rests m'lud.
Gasket.

Agent Groove

unread,

May 15, 2003, 11:36:05 PM5/15/03

(In my first post, I had just woken up and as getting ready for work. My
apologies for mispellings, grammar flubs, and generally writing like English
was my second language, when in fact it's the only language I know :)

> >> * The ones who oppose the Etherites would be the Verbana and the
> >> Conservative Dreamspeakers, who find those Scientist bastards as bad
> >> as those witch-burning maniacs in the Chorus, the Sahajiya (CoX),
> >> whom the Etherites find 'morally deficient' (sex all the time? that's
> >> unhealthy!), the Marauders (madmen! Someone get the
> >> straight-jackets!) and the Nephandi (obviously). These people are
> >> usually pushed out from the Sphere, and establish their own
> >> territories out of it. Of course, borders push one another, and they
> >> occasionally fight.

Well, we're automatically assuming the Ethers will all be priggish
Victorians. My guess is that for every Great White Hunter, that there will
also be some brash american inventor, a la Ford and Edison. While the Ether
paradigm is the basis of reality, there's wide room for many national
interpretations. For example, American Ethers may well be more egalitarian
and brash, allowing *gasp* women to join their ranks.

Also remember that the 1800's were the age of Marx, Crowley, Annie Besant
and any number of differing social reformers. If the Sphere follows the
tone of western expansionism into a new frontier and colonialism, this may
be the age where social barriers crumble and where Science! breaks down old
rules of economics.

One Convention that I can see very easily fitting into this setting - The
Craftmasons. Mages for the common man, their strength would lie in populist
and union movements, demanding calls for universal suffrage and power
acceded to the working man and women. Great supporters of builders,
craftsmen and inventors, I can easily see Ford, Edison and the like being
part of this Union. Finest crafters of buildings, construction projects,
and etherships known. Strong ties to the Electrodyne engineers, as they
embody the common-man-can-do attitude of Invention, as well as to the Order
of Hermes, for their Masonic practices and secret society style rituals.
The best at western style Geomancy, bridging Hermetic occultism and Etheric
Science. Hated deeply by the Financiers (our world's Syndicate), with an
ongoing war for the economic aspects of the Paradigm.

> > As you said before, the setting is so big that war simply wouldn't be
> > worth it. I think instead that Verbena and Dreamspeakers would find
> > their own ways to travel to Venus or Mars or wherever and set up shot,
> > and be the dangerous, primordial savages that intrepid explorers must
> > face.
>
> Maybe. Hmm. To be honest, I can't think of any way we'd be able to get an
> interstellar war going, unless we multipy the current population of this
> setting by a few hundred times, and make sure that resources are
> scarce...

"As the Ambassador of the Goddess's Nation of Venus, we in the strongest way
possible condemn these terrorist attacks against the Poseidon and New
Victoria shipywards. The Gods are of life, not death!"

> On the other hand, there'd be plenty of small wars and 'police actions'
> against pro-Gaian, Marauder and Nephandic communities. So there's still
> that for unpleasantness.

See above.

> > A further issues is how hostile Etheric sciences would be to the
> > environment. Since Ethical Calculus I presume would short circuit the
> > predatory capitalism we have on our own world, I'd guess that
> > government may well be a quasi-socialist, quasi-parlimentarian thing,
> > with all sorts of wild theories of government actually *working*
> > (remember, this is Mage, after all.)
>
> Agreed. Which would frustrate the industrialists and the money men, but
> they can't have everything...

But they would be present. I imagine that this would be a great setting to
play Robber Baron types.

Also note one thing - if the Metaphysic of Magick is open knowledge, then
people know that Mages exist and that resources are theoretically infinite.
Ether transforms can transform Raw Ether into Gold, Food or whatever else
you want. This whacks the hell out of conventional capitalism, and creates
more of a situation similar to Star Trek with it's replicators. "This is
the age of Science, m'boy! People work because they want to, not because
they have to! Of course my Organatron can make a nice, juicy prime rib!"

> > So the social factors that lead
> > to wide-spread environmental devastation wouldn't necessarily be
> > there, which would lead to Dreamspeakers and Verbena not necessarily
> > being as hostile. Further, resources abound in space, so the pristine
> > places on Earth may well be left alone.
>
> Mmm. Point noted. So the conflict might lie more in cultural and economic
> spheres, and not in terms of mere physical resources like land and oil
> (or quint).

The big resources would be Condensed Ether (Quintessence) and the belief of
the Masses. Those are the only two resources which Mages really need.

> We'd probably see Dreamspeaker communities bemoaning the fact that not
> one of their kids are interested in the Old Ways any more...

If there was indeed widespread belief in spirits, and a tacit
acknowledgement of Magick (remember, the Metaphysic is public knowledge,
even the dullest person *knows* that belief creates reality), I feel that
different Reality Sets would be tolerated, but restricted to colonies or
remote locals. Further, there may well be a degree of integration. For
example...

ZZORCH! (smoking Ether Rifle) "Get the hell off of our lands, white man!"

If easy invention is part of the Paradigm, natives may well adopt Science!
While still holding to their old cultural institutions and mysticism. I see
places like Japan, India, etc being furious adopters of trains and
Etherships while keeping their cultural distinctiveness.

Imagine the Japanese Emperor having an Ozone rifle armed guard, along with
Kensai yojimbo who's sword skills can cut steel, a la Ruroni Kenshin.

For notions of this, see Anime such as Sakura Taisen.

> >> * The Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,
> >> Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within the
> >> Order of Reason find their place within the Sphere, and occasionally
> >> within Enemy Territory as well. It depends on how each paradigm fits
> >> into the other.
> >> The Brothers and the OoH are located where humans are located --
> >> although not exactly trusted by everyone, they're not exactly hunted,
> >> either. The Wu Lung handle governance within the Oriental regions of
> >> the Sphere, while the Batini and the Euthanatos serve as Secret Agents
> >> that police humanity within the Sphere: both grudgingly work together,
> >> despite their shared history.
> >
> > I'd imagine there'd be room within the meta-paradigm for victorian
> > style Golden Dawn Occultism (OOH)...
>
> But not any of the older Sumerian and Aramaic rituals, I think. Nothing
> like the summoning of dragons, storms or fireballs. I suspect the OoH's
> focus Sphere might drift away from Forces and more into Spheres like
> Entropy, Spirit and Mind.

Dragons and such are definitely out. Dinosaurs are *much* more Etherite.
But the paradigm is much less hostile to Hermetic arts than the current WoD
one is. I'd imagine that the Order would straddle the line between vulgar
and coincidental, and would be allowed to keep Horizon Realms and secret
sanctuaries. I've always been a proponent of different Traditions's
sub-groups having different specialty Spheres anyway, so I can see Hermetics
being big into the aforementioned Spheres.

Remember, tho - since the Al-Kitab Akir is public knowledge, so is the
notion of Subjective Reality. A sleeper may not say, when the Hermes Wizard
throws a fireball, "I don't believe it!" He may say instead, "That crazy
rascal is using old broken science that doesn't work!"
The effect of Vulgarity may well be the same.

> > ...and exotic Martial Arts and asian
> > mysteries (see the anime Giant Robo for a great example of Akashic and
> > Etherite paradigms working together.) There may well even be an
> > International Police, with super-powered and two-fisted defenders of
> > freedom and justice!
>
> Sw33t!

See it. I can't recommend Giant Robo enough for fans of the Sons of Ethers.
And while Dragons are not Etheric, Giant Robots most certainly are.
Especially Super-Robots! See Giant Robo, Tetsuan Atom, Geta Robo, Mazinger
Zed. For things in an 1800's mode, Sakura Taisen.

Giant Robots may well be the military order of the day, with lone
super-defenders serving as the backbones of nation's military. Of course,
Japan would lead the way. "Defender Etherus Z! Crush the Outsider Invaders
now!"

> >> * The Conventions are generally within the Sphere themselves --
> >> exceptions include the Conventions that make up the VE, who explore
> >> and chart the universe around them from unusable Void. Iteration X
> >> make up one of the 'transhuman' factions, while Progenitors learn to
> >> work with Etherite Science. Craftmasons disappear, only to reappear
> >> in high positions in government.

See my notes above about the Craftsmasons, who would be everyman inventors,
magickal workman, union leaders, populist politicians, and the champion of
the Everyman.

High Guild Members realize that the
> >> amount of Science! coming in makes for good (albeit unstable)
> >> business, so they begin controlling the flow of commerce within the
> >> Sphere. The Cabal of Pure Thought try to make inroads into the Middle
> >> East and India, find the Euthanatos and Ahl-i-Batin
> >> waiting for them, and get slaughtered, assimilated, and reshaped into
> >> the Ivory Tower.

The problem with Science! Is that it's capable of creating infinite supply!
But I'm sure that Financiers (that sounds like a more appropo name for them,
or maybe the World Bankers) feel that the best human capital is creativity
and ideas, which they would seek to trade in. The Syndicate in this setting
could be at it's best every Horatio Alger myth made real, except for those
damned Craftmasons, organizing the help and driving up labor costs.

> > There seems that there wouldn't be any Union - they'd all be the Order
> > of Reason, except that the Conventions we're familiar with would have
> > a strong injection of dynamism and humanity, and wouldn't resemble the
> > Conventions we know in the current setting. I'm not even sure if the
> > Artificers, Progenitors or Void Engineers would even exist...
>
> They would. It's a matter of their attitude, I should think. Unlike
> mainstream Etherites, the Artificers would probably attempt to transcend
> their bodies, projecting themselves into the Ether-Net and turning their
> bodies into mechanical Scientific constructs. Surprisingly, this doesn't
> necessarily make them any less human -- although plenty of Artificers
> would become amoral and resemble more our Technocratic ItX friends.

I think they would be out of the mainstream of the main Ether style
inventors. Instead, they'd be called 'dunderheads' for their rigid
conformity. Or maybe they'd be regarded as a friendly craft. Would they be
as cybernetic as the ones in the WoD are? Remember, ItX did not really get
into the whole cybernetics thing until The Computer achieved sentience.

> The Proggies would still be the same, except that their focus now turns
> almost to protecting and preserving life. Almost any Scienties who takes
> the Hippocratic Oath is eligible to become a Progenitor.

And these Cosians would not be infected by the hubris and hunger for power
of their WoD counterparts. They may not have lost their original focus.

> Stayka's character would probably be the kind of person to join this
> universe's version of VE, really. That's all I can say. Unlike a lot of
> Etherites back home (who may have responsibilities back home, or may not
> want to leave comforting surroundings), VEs would either be made of
> people who wish to defend the Earth from Things Above and Below, but also
> those who wish to explore. Depending on the size of the actual setting (I
> was originally thinking 'interstellar', but now I'm not so sure), they'd
> either be the first to travel to the stars or the ones who have traveled
> the furthest.
>
> > ...the Sons
> > of Ether can more or less reproduce everything these guys do in an
> > Electropunk setting. I can see an Ivory Tower (academics) and
> > Syndicate (JP Morgan style industrialists),. however.
>
> Academics and Press for the Ivory Towers, really. But yeah.
>
> >> * Speaking of which, the Ministry of Swords handle the Batini,
> >> Euthanatos, and Ivory Tower. Batini operatives handle political
> >> manouvering, alongside the Craftmasons (whom they compete with).
> >> Euthanatos members handle assasination and 'removals'. Ivory Tower
> >> members... well, they handle the information, and are consummate
> >> bureaucrats.
> >
> > The Ministry may also have Akashic Brotherhood members as well.
>
> Agreed. Not a lot, since many have other things to do.

I like the idea of a large Imperial China, that's inscrutable and still
ruled by an Emperor, but has embraced Ether Science along with it's own
mysticism. Perhaps they can be the 'enemy', in that they send their
inscrutable agents about, and any Awakened is shackled to their Minsitry of
Works. Great for evil Asian Scientists, yellow peril, and Fu Manchu
mastermind, as well as Charlie Chan style detectives.

> >> * Earth is contested ground. Anyone wanna work out why?
> >
> > Nationalism. Instead of Mage factions, countries are waging a space
> > race, and if the Metaphysic of Magick is an open fact, governments may
> > have their favorite Mage factions backing them, with different
> > countries having colonies throught the sphere.
>
> Perfect! I could just kiss you :)
>
> And this brings up the issue about Etherites being good guys and bad
> guys. As it is, I suspect the good or bad of what you do in this setting
> might be less related to your mystical affiliation, and more with what
> nation you belong to. For example, you might be a Dreamspeaker Shaman
> (NOT Technoshaman, just to make a point) under the British Ministry of
> Swords, but you're a Good Guy, while that Etherite Utopian might belong
> to <insert favourite nation here> and would obviously be a troublemaking
> Evil Bastard.

Well, there are obviously Mad Scientists, these are Etherites, after all!
And because the Ether paradigm is consensual, heavens know what a Madman
could do.

I like the idea of an evil secret society, bent on world conquest, similar
to Big Fire from Giant Robo. The Mages involved would have any number of
different styles, but would all be in the mold of classic Victorian and Pulp
villains, with names like Doctor Devious, the Iron Count and the Ruby
Mandarin.

Again, SEE GIANT ROBO. It's almost your setting to a T, except space.

> I'd even suspect that America and Australia might actually be more
> Verbena and Dreamspeaker-like, really, and that China and Japan might
> still retain their traditional forms of rulership, but with the Advances
> of Science to help them get ahead.

Well, if Natives actually had access to Magick and spirits, then the anglo
westward expanse may well have been stopped. If one presumes Ethical
calculus would hold sway, then the great thinkers of the US would have
demanded that recognition of Native rights, and a campaign of peaceful
negotiation may result in native tribes and nations joining as member states
of the US.

Imagine this - a US where the US *kept* all treaties made with Natives, and
where both Immigrants and Natives are brothers, where democracy, freedome
and tolerance are embodied as the American Dream, and also one where black
emancipation follows a somewhat better course.

Image - Teddy Roosevelt welcoming Lakota and Sioux into the US, with full US
states rights, natives making up to 1/2 of US population, and the rest of
the world regarding the US as half breed savages, but admiring their can do
spirit of both settlers and natives, peacefully coming to terms. Teddy with
native Elders, smoking peace on the White House Lawn, and by the time of the
campaign, a black of native American president.

> >> * This section are for those who want to add in Werewolves, Vampires,
> >> Hunters, Mummies, Changelings, Wraiths, Demons and Anything else:
> >
> > Werewolves - If there's not so much pressure on Earth (everyone's in
> > space), then things may not be that dire for Gaia...
>
> No, but they MIGHT be fighting for survival. I'd imagine the Red Talons
> making things worse for the werewolves by tarnishing their image, so
> they'd probably be clustered in pro-Gaia territories for survival.

Or, shipped out to Venus where they can roam free!

See my notes on America. If with Ether Science America can keep the impact
of it's industries on the Environment minimal, with the population of the US
being much lower due to relative wealth, then many more wide open and
unspoilt spaces, then native Garou may well be secret US military assets,
acting as Earth Mother's ambassadors to the Sleeper government. This
rapproachment with shapechangers may well earn Americans derision as
'savages'. Just don't mention that near a native or immigrant Yankee, he
may be one. I'd imagine with the much lower pressure on the Environment,
European garou may not have invaded as they did, and the Silver Fangs and
their ilk would be kicked back to Europe where they belong by strong,
vigorous native shapeshifters (Wendigo, Uktena, Croatan, Gurahl, Pumoka and
Qualmi.) Some immigrant Fianna may be allowed Septs on the East Coast, if
they were polite.

> On the other hand, there would be a few Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers
> around the humans, trying to keep their existences a secret.

Glass Walkers may well take Ether Spirits as totems, and be well versed in
Ethertech!

> > ...Changelings - somewhat less Banal, and Knocker paradise! Kindred -
> > destroyed during the witch hunts, and monsters to be destroyed by
> > intrepid two-fisted avengers a la the Shadow.
>
> Not necessarily. Unless vampires are remarkably stupid and careless, I'd
> say more than a few would integrate themselves into Etherite society.
> There would be less Sabbat around, however, and most would be obsessed
> with their own lives, and not try and take over the world or whatever
> they do in V:tM. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ministry of Swords had
> vampire personnel, or... for a sinister turn, a vampire leading it.

A Vampire who was assuredly loyal to the Queen and Crown, even into Undeath.
I'd imagine that much of the traditional Camarilla structure would exist.

> > Wraiths? There may be seances to contact me dear old departed Mum...
>
> For some reason I keep thinking of Hellboy, and the occasional ectoplasm-
> manifesting medium. I should think that ectoplasm has a place in Etherite
> science :)

Absolutely! "My good boy, that 'ghost' is merely an Ectoplasmic construct,
the echo of a deceased person, preserved by the Etheric Medium! We see them
all the time, yes yes. Most are reasonable, if you do them a favor from
time to time."

> > ...the Midnight Express may well cruise throughout the Sphere and
> > through the Ether.
>
> Nice. They'd probably contribute to the 'space-ghost' legends :)
>
> > Demons? Puhlease, doesn't mesh well with the setting.
>
> Yeah, that's what I thought.
>
> > CB
>
> Hmm. What does that stand for, anyway?
>
> Tariq Kamal

I'm sorry. I've been here on and off so long I thought everyone knew who I
was.

Chris Bell

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 16, 2003, 4:23:31 AM5/16/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote in
:> *g* Did I mention that IRL I work as a freelance journalist for

:> computer mags?
: Hmm. No, you didn't. Me? I'm a bum / student, with a major in Comp. Sci
: :)

*g* Actually I'm doing a variety of things that are mostly
related with computers, too ^_^ Teaching courses in that
field belongs to it, too.

: Any ideas on what a 'new' Ivory Tower member would look like,

: if they weren't in the bureaucratic and educational area?

Hm. I thought this *was* supposed to be their areas? BTW, I
think translation should fall into their area, too. When doing a
job as interpreter, one often needs to manipulate things slightly
as to gloss over stuff. Actually one should add all of
communicaton to that.

:> LOL, everytime I see "Nagah", my brain shorts out and I think

:> "Naga the Serpent" from Slayers ^_^
: That reference passed me by, I'm afraid :)

Slayers is a hilarious, over the top anime tat parodies all
sorts of fantasy cliches.
http://www.geocities.com/findelhe/bios/nagathewhiteserpent.htm

Clear Ether!

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 16, 2003, 9:50:29 AM5/16/03

In news:ba2763$dhe$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de, Stayka deyAvemta
<sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:

> Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote in
>:> *g* Did I mention that IRL I work as a freelance journalist for
>:> computer mags?
>: Hmm. No, you didn't. Me? I'm a bum / student, with a major in Comp.
Sci
>: :)
>
> *g* Actually I'm doing a variety of things that are mostly
> related with computers, too ^_^ Teaching courses in that
> field belongs to it, too.

You mentioned that once, I believe.

>: Any ideas on what a 'new' Ivory Tower member would look like,
>: if they weren't in the bureaucratic and educational area?
>
> Hm. I thought this *was* supposed to be their areas? BTW, I
> think translation should fall into their area, too. When doing a
> job as interpreter, one often needs to manipulate things slightly
> as to gloss over stuff. Actually one should add all of
> communicaton to that.

There you go. Though this does present some unsettling thoughts on who
guards the doorways to the Ether-Net. Do the Difference Engineers do it,
or are they in conflict with the Ivory Tower over it?

Speaking of which, we haven't talked about the nature of the Ether-net.
Would it be a decentralized realm like in RL?

What I was thinking was that the Ivory Tower was the one organization
that basically guarded idea of the 'free press'. Imagine Superman's Perry
White (Clark Kent's boss, for those who didn't know) secretly belonging
to the Ivory Tower.

>:> LOL, everytime I see "Nagah", my brain shorts out and I think
>:> "Naga the Serpent" from Slayers ^_^
>: That reference passed me by, I'm afraid :)
>
> Slayers is a hilarious, over the top anime tat parodies all
> sorts of fantasy cliches.
> http://www.geocities.com/findelhe/bios/nagathewhiteserpent.htm

Hmm. Geez. No, not like that. How would real-life Nagah fight in Balaram
form with boobies like that? And I've known women with D-Cups. They all
complain of how it hurts to run, 'cause of all that bouncing.

Hmm. I wonder who makes Lara Croft's bras? :)

> Clear Ether!
> Stayka

Hmm. I think we needs a .sig hunt.

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 16, 2003, 10:40:05 AM5/16/03

In news:3EC44863.3030001@b.c, Bob <a@b.c> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Stayka deyAvemta wrote:
>> Asmodai <lo...@post.hr> wrote:
>> : Ok i finnaly took time to anwser this lenghty post... though it
>> : seems it hasn't sparked taht much interest :)
>
> Sparking and sparking Sir!

First time I saw that, I thought it read, "Spanking and sparking, Sir!".

Tariq, you have a sick, sick mind.

>>
>> Well, the rest of the group is too awed by such a fantastic world.
>> Scientists unite!!
>>
>> Re: Akashic Brotherhood, Wu Lung, Ahl-i-Batin, Order of Hermes,
>> Technomantic Dreamspeakers, Euthanatos and the Conventions within
>> the Order of Reason
>>
>> : Actualy here i must disagree... The Etherites were on their
>> : own at the time (on the verge of joiniung the OoR)
>>
>> Actually the Etherites per se have a somewhat colourful history
>> with quite some changes of affiliation. They started out as a
>> sideline of the Order of Hermes, then made some somersaults
>> including the Artificers and ItX until they condensed into the
>> Electrodyne Engineers... So one would probably have to see them
>> as somewhat eccentric and brash group among the Artificers at
>> that time.
> From Aretus and Parmenides to Golo of Verditius via Bright Lions to
> Polidori to the Electrodyne Engineers thence to replace the
> Solificati. Would the Solificati have left the 9 in this paradigm?

Hmm. Good point.

(points to Roger, a hulking, muscular figure in the background)

You see that man over there? That's Roger. Now, you wouldn't know it from
here, but he's three hundred years old.

Potions? Oh, no. He's got nothing to do with the alchemical stuff. Well,
actually, he does. Y'see, he's a homunculus.

Yeah. You've heard of them? Well, that's all right, then, so I won't need
to explain what they are. See, he was made by a member of the Old Guilds
-- a Solificati, I believe. Children of Knowledge.

Oh, this one's an alchemical root. None of that semen stuff; he wouldn't
have lasted as long as he did if he did. Anyway. We found him in a newly-
Recovered moor in Scotland. He had been asleep for almost three hundred
years. Yeah, his life experience before he woke up was about five years.

How did we wake him up? He runs on juice, I mean, electricity. So we had
Agent Newton rig up a portable Quantum Singularity Generator, and we
plugged that in on him.

What happened to the Old Guilds? You don't know? Well, they say the Old
Guilds were re-absorbed by the newer Guilds, and that Solificati ideas
still float around; you could say that the homonculus was the first
articial Construct.

Yeah. Damn good craftsmanship, I agree. They don't make 'em like used to.

Come on, I promised Roger I'd buy him a drink. Never tasted alcohol
before, he said.

<snip>

>> : As i said... the OoR would have been formed... with the
>> : Etherites as their leadership.. the intitiative was there...
>> : and the Etherite paradigm ruling would be quite what they needed
>> : at the time (in the Renessaince they were all crazy scientists)
> And the cabal and High guild just go along with this?

The Cabal gets wiped out, like I said, and turned into the Ivory Tower
(more like an Ivory Tower, because this was slightly different from our
canon). The High Guild, I think, just went along with the ride, seeing
how much money they were making at that time...

<snip>

>> So you can or cannot keep the Difference Engineers in this
>> projected Electropunk World.
> Difference Engineers with Etheric Engines kind of an off shoot of the
> Pythagori rather than Babbage.

Hmm. Instead of mechanics (hardware), more on mathematics and symbol
logic (software). Hmm...

>> : Avatar Storm? What is that? Do you put that on your bread in the
>> : morning? This settign probably wouldn't have had an Avatar storm...
>>
>> Well, I would see to it that it hasn't ^_^
> Avatar Storm great with toast! Something the revised Wod could do
> without.

Wouldn't know, really. Started with MRev, so the Avatar Storm was always
there for me.

>> :> * Anyone know how to incorporate solid-state electronics into the
>> :> Etherite Paradigm? I can't think of any way of doing it without
>> :> introducing Einsteinian physics.
>> : Actualy there is none... unless you go for Etherites becoming
>> : a bit more "focused" and going a bit more scientific (here Stayka
>> : screams in hapiness :))
>>
>> Indeed! Put some more science into Science!
> Electronics is too much of an itX backward step. Would ItX exist would
> they have ever made contact with Authocthonia?

Hmm. I think the ItX would probably end up as a transhumanist faction
within the Etherite Majority. So they might end up finding Autochthonia,
though I'm sure the Ministry of Swords wouldn't like that.

<snip>

>> Well, one could set up some reservations for them on Venus or so.
>> Maybe together with the Verbena and Dreamspeakers...
> Come see the last remaining Wolf people don't get too near the cage
> there young master!

"Shh. Don't make too much noise. The guard will hear you. Yeah, I know,
I'm one of you. What, you thought you were the last?

Look, I'll get this collar off you, and then we'll talk. For now, let's
just concentrate on getting you out of here.

Where am I taking you? Home, of course. I'm taking you to the Heart of
Gaia.

You don't know what that is. Oh, man. We're in for a long night."

<snip>

>> :> - Arcadia gets spit out from the Sphere. It's probably a planet or
>> :> realm. Anyone who knows Changeling well can figure it out. Maybe
>> :> they're like the djinns who get bored of the Invisible World and
>> :> come out to play.
>> : HEY! YOu cannot do that... people still dream and wish and are
>> : creative... some part of Aracaida would still be among people...
>>
>> Well, there are those rumours that the Changelings had a hand in the
>> building of Victoria Station...
> But would they still have an effect beyond Luna?

Can't see why not. Just because Arcadia was beyond the Horizon doesn't
mean that Changelings can't have a role to play. And humans dream, no
matter where they are. So they would have an effect.

Y'see, I always wondered if Dorian Gray was one of them...

>> : Actualy i think they would get their power early... there is no way
>> : the Etherites would create Utopia
>>
>> Off *course* they would. An Etherite Utopia! The only drawback
>> would be that maybe some other people don't see this as the
>> coolest lifestyle ever ^_^
> Fetch the Ivory Tower for re-Education!

Ex-actly.

>> : (the people aren't receptive to livign in peace and harmony) and
>> : soon many of the mwoudl start showing why they don't live among
>> : humans and why their experiments are best left for underground
>> : labs and outer space...
>>
>> It always depends on the experiments in question of course ^_^
>>
>> : Now seriously...The world may be nice to play in, but i still
>> : think that there is no way to create a Utopia... Etherites are
>> : caleld "mad scientiists" for a reason...
>>
>> Hey, the Mad Scientists are only *one* faction of the Etherites!
> Madness is in the Eye of the beholder would you have Popper and James
> in this world let alone Freud and Skinner?

Yup :) They'd be in the Ivory Tower, I suppose. And Freud's theories (as
his students, like Lacan) would actually work -- they'd be able to
literally manipulate the structures within a person, so that a 'healthy
neuroticism' could be achieved...

>> : and humanity really ins't receptive to realyl being all nice and
>> : great to each other...
>
> There seems to be a tone of Brazil and 1984 to this Utopia but isn't
> there always.

Agree on that. No one's warned the world about how dangerous a socialist
system can get, and there has never been a World War to shake the
confidence of the Scientists.

And there are even people who insist that all history has been played
out, and now all that's left is this Endless Golden Age of Science!

They could be right, of course. But seriously?

>> That is another problem *sighs* Philistines!
> Prosecution rests m'lud.

Ah, yes. Good show. Now would anyone want a brandy? No? Ah, I see you
belong to the Temperance League. No, you needn't hand me a pamphlet, no
need to trouble yourself. I understand. Shall I bring in the tea and
scones, then?

Yes? Bravo, excellent. I'll call for Kirby, then.

(rings bell)

Tea, Kirby, and some biscuits.

> Gasket.

Tariq Kamal

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 16, 2003, 11:01:12 AM5/16/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:
:>: Any ideas on what a 'new' Ivory Tower member would look like,

:>: if they weren't in the bureaucratic and educational area?
:> Hm. I thought this *was* supposed to be their areas? BTW, I
:> think translation should fall into their area, too. When doing a
:> job as interpreter, one often needs to manipulate things slightly
:> as to gloss over stuff. Actually one should add all of
:> communicaton to that.
: There you go. Though this does present some unsettling thoughts on who
: guards the doorways to the Ether-Net. Do the Difference Engineers do it,
: or are they in conflict with the Ivory Tower over it?

Well, think of the Difference Engineers as the guys who propagate
the freedom of the Ether-Net as many Virtuals do in the canon
time line, while the Ivory Tower would be the guys who set up the
censoring and controlling thingies. Copyright stuff and
eCommerce etc would belong to the Financiers' domain, though, so
they were likely to meddle in this area, too.

: Speaking of which, we haven't talked about the nature of the Ether-net.

: Would it be a decentralized realm like in RL?

I think it might be a combination - Ivory Tower and Financiers
would definitely love to put everything under one lid, while the
Difference Engineers might think more along the line of
decentralisation and thus keeping the net operable even when
parts are defunct.

: What I was thinking was that the Ivory Tower was the one organization

: that basically guarded idea of the 'free press'. Imagine Superman's Perry
: White (Clark Kent's boss, for those who didn't know) secretly belonging
: to the Ivory Tower.

Well, why not? 'Free Press', yeah ^_^

Be seeing you!

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 16, 2003, 11:34:43 AM5/16/03

"Agent Groove" <x...@zyx.net> wrote in message news:<F0Zwa.13267$6L5.6...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...

> (In my first post, I had just woken up and as getting ready for work. My
> apologies for mispellings, grammar flubs, and generally writing like English
> was my second language, when in fact it's the only language I know :)

Don't worry about it. English wasn't the first language I learned, and
as long as your message got across. Hell, most of my Sphere posts have
been done while I was half-asleep.

> > >> * The ones who oppose the Etherites would be the Verbana and the
> > >> Conservative Dreamspeakers, who find those Scientist bastards as bad
> > >> as those witch-burning maniacs in the Chorus, the Sahajiya (CoX),
> > >> whom the Etherites find 'morally deficient' (sex all the time? that's
> > >> unhealthy!), the Marauders (madmen! Someone get the
> > >> straight-jackets!) and the Nephandi (obviously). These people are
> > >> usually pushed out from the Sphere, and establish their own
> > >> territories out of it. Of course, borders push one another, and they
> > >> occasionally fight.
>
> Well, we're automatically assuming the Ethers will all be priggish
> Victorians. My guess is that for every Great White Hunter, that there will
> also be some brash american inventor, a la Ford and Edison. While the Ether
> paradigm is the basis of reality, there's wide room for many national
> interpretations. For example, American Ethers may well be more egalitarian
> and brash, allowing *gasp* women to join their ranks.

And of course, we could set the tone for German, French, Italian,
Belgian inventors...

> Also remember that the 1800's were the age of Marx, Crowley, Annie Besant
> and any number of differing social reformers. If the Sphere follows the
> tone of western expansionism into a new frontier and colonialism, this may
> be the age where social barriers crumble and where Science! breaks down old
> rules of economics.

It would be an age of conflict, at any rate. People would be torn
between tradition and the reformers, as well as other things.

> One Convention that I can see very easily fitting into this setting - The
> Craftmasons. Mages for the common man, their strength would lie in populist
> and union movements, demanding calls for universal suffrage and power
> acceded to the working man and women. Great supporters of builders,
> craftsmen and inventors, I can easily see Ford, Edison and the like being
> part of this Union. Finest crafters of buildings, construction projects,
> and etherships known. Strong ties to the Electrodyne engineers, as they
> embody the common-man-can-do attitude of Invention, as well as to the Order
> of Hermes, for their Masonic practices and secret society style rituals.
> The best at western style Geomancy,

And they'd be competing with the Feng Shui practicioners of the
Ministry of Works! Yay!

> bridging Hermetic occultism and Etheric
> Science. Hated deeply by the Financiers (our world's Syndicate), with an
> ongoing war for the economic aspects of the Paradigm.

That's just beautiful, Chris ^_^

We should write this up before it gets out of hand.

<snip>

> > On the other hand, there'd be plenty of small wars and 'police actions'
> > against pro-Gaian, Marauder and Nephandic communities. So there's still
> > that for unpleasantness.
>
> See above.

I did; I still think there would be people who would subvert the Moral
Calculus of the Etherites. I mean, the results would be comparatively
different if the wrong kind of data went in...

Plus, there'd be that damn imperialist Kaiser, or Tsar, or Emperor...
you know the deal.

> > > A further issues is how hostile Etheric sciences would be to the
> > > environment. Since Ethical Calculus I presume would short circuit the
> > > predatory capitalism we have on our own world, I'd guess that
> > > government may well be a quasi-socialist, quasi-parlimentarian thing,
> > > with all sorts of wild theories of government actually *working*
> > > (remember, this is Mage, after all.)
> >
> > Agreed. Which would frustrate the industrialists and the money men, but
> > they can't have everything...
>
> But they would be present. I imagine that this would be a great setting to
> play Robber Baron types.
>
> Also note one thing - if the Metaphysic of Magick is open knowledge, then
> people know that Mages exist and that resources are theoretically infinite.
> Ether transforms can transform Raw Ether into Gold, Food or whatever else
> you want. This whacks the hell out of conventional capitalism, and creates
> more of a situation similar to Star Trek with it's replicators. "This is
> the age of Science, m'boy! People work because they want to, not because
> they have to! Of course my Organatron can make a nice, juicy prime rib!"

See below. You just gave me the finite resources I need :)

> The big resources would be Condensed Ether (Quintessence) and
> the belief of the Masses.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This, combined with human labor and Quint, would work out to be the
resources we need. It might take a LOT of Ether to condense into
quintessence.

Plus, this could bring up visions of mind and body slavers... :)

> Those are the only two resources which Mages really need.
>
> > We'd probably see Dreamspeaker communities bemoaning the fact that not
> > one of their kids are interested in the Old Ways any more...
>
> If there was indeed widespread belief in spirits, and a tacit
> acknowledgement of Magick (remember, the Metaphysic is public knowledge,
> even the dullest person *knows* that belief creates reality), I feel that
> different Reality Sets would be tolerated, but restricted to colonies or
> remote locals. Further, there may well be a degree of integration. For
> example...
>
>
> ZZORCH! (smoking Ether Rifle) "Get the hell off of our lands, white man!"

Mmm. This could also be a great Wild West setting, you know.
Especially if it was also done in Mars :)

> If easy invention is part of the Paradigm, natives may well adopt Science!
> While still holding to their old cultural institutions and mysticism. I see
> places like Japan, India, etc being furious adopters of trains and
> Etherships while keeping their cultural distinctiveness.

"His Royal Majesty, Sultan Akbar Idris Al-Alim Shah! All hail the
Sultan!"

"His Royal Majesty, Maharaja Rama Chandra Kumar, slayer of the 17th
Avatar of Ravana. All hail the Maharaja!"

"His Eminence, The Rajah Charles Bernard Brooke the Fourth, Regent of
Sarawak, Appeaser of the Iban and Dayak, Friend of Kinabalu! All hail
the Rajah!"

I could just go on :)

> Imagine the Japanese Emperor having an Ozone rifle armed guard, along with
> Kensai yojimbo who's sword skills can cut steel, a la Ruroni Kenshin.

"We give our lives for the Emperor! Our lives for the Emperor! Tenno
Hakka BANZAI!"

> For notions of this, see Anime such as Sakura Taisen.

Seen it. It's okay. But I can see your point. Especially if the
Nephandi were the bad guys, with their own Giant Robots :)

<snip>

> > But not any of the older Sumerian and Aramaic rituals, I think. Nothing
> > like the summoning of dragons, storms or fireballs. I suspect the OoH's
> > focus Sphere might drift away from Forces and more into Spheres like
> > Entropy, Spirit and Mind.
>
> Dragons and such are definitely out. Dinosaurs are *much* more Etherite.
> But the paradigm is much less hostile to Hermetic arts than the current WoD
> one is. I'd imagine that the Order would straddle the line between vulgar
> and coincidental, and would be allowed to keep Horizon Realms and secret
> sanctuaries. I've always been a proponent of different Traditions's
> sub-groups having different specialty Spheres anyway, so I can see Hermetics
> being big into the aforementioned Spheres.
>
> Remember, tho - since the Al-Kitab Akir is public knowledge, so is the
> notion of Subjective Reality. A sleeper may not say, when the Hermes Wizard
> throws a fireball, "I don't believe it!" He may say instead, "That crazy
> rascal is using old broken science that doesn't work!"
> The effect of Vulgarity may well be the same.

Okay. But I wouldn't be surprised if some Hermetic Barrabi summoning a
tentacled horror from the Depths of Time. Surprisingly, this might not
be as vulgar as summoning dragons or dinosaurs, or spirits of the
elements.

<snip>

> See it. I can't recommend Giant Robo enough for fans of the Sons of Ethers.
> And while Dragons are not Etheric, Giant Robots most certainly are.
> Especially Super-Robots! See Giant Robo, Tetsuan Atom, Geta Robo, Mazinger
> Zed. For things in an 1800's mode, Sakura Taisen.
>
> Giant Robots may well be the military order of the day, with lone
> super-defenders serving as the backbones of nation's military. Of course,
> Japan would lead the way. "Defender Etherus Z! Crush the Outsider Invaders
> now!"

Or ULTRAMAN! Done in Etherite style!

Heeeee~!

(dances)

"Oh, no, it's the Demon Raxnaleda, intent on crushing Tokyo under it's
tentacled heel!

(Does it have heels?)

(Of course not, stupid!)

Then only one thing can save us!

(from someone in the crowd) TAROH!

Look, it's Ultraman Taroh! He'll save us!"

> > >> * The Conventions are generally within the Sphere themselves --
> > >> exceptions include the Conventions that make up the VE, who explore
> > >> and chart the universe around them from unusable Void. Iteration X
> > >> make up one of the 'transhuman' factions, while Progenitors learn to
> > >> work with Etherite Science. Craftmasons disappear, only to reappear
> > >> in high positions in government.
>
> See my notes above about the Craftsmasons, who would be everyman inventors,
> magickal workman, union leaders, populist politicians, and the champion of
> the Everyman.

Okay. Hmm. The Batini would be competing against them in the political
arena, and occasionally foiling them whenever they organize something
crucial. Hmm. The same with Financiers, of course. Yes, this could
work.

> > >> High Guild Members realize that the
> > >> amount of Science! coming in makes for good (albeit unstable)
> > >> business, so they begin controlling the flow of commerce within the
> > >> Sphere. The Cabal of Pure Thought try to make inroads into the Middle
> > >> East and India, find the Euthanatos and Ahl-i-Batin
> > >> waiting for them, and get slaughtered, assimilated, and reshaped into
> > >> the Ivory Tower.
>
> The problem with Science! Is that it's capable of creating infinite supply!
> But I'm sure that Financiers (that sounds like a more appropo name for them,
> or maybe the World Bankers) feel that the best human capital is creativity
> and ideas, which they would seek to trade in. The Syndicate in this setting
> could be at it's best every Horatio Alger myth made real, except for those
> damned Craftmasons, organizing the help and driving up labor costs.

Exactly. And they'd also be against slavers, who'd be driving DOWN the
labor costs, and undermining THEIR power (as well as it being a bad
thing, for proponents of the Ethical Calculus!).

> > > There seems that there wouldn't be any Union - they'd all be the Order
> > > of Reason, except that the Conventions we're familiar with would have
> > > a strong injection of dynamism and humanity, and wouldn't resemble the
> > > Conventions we know in the current setting. I'm not even sure if the
> > > Artificers, Progenitors or Void Engineers would even exist...
> >
> > They would. It's a matter of their attitude, I should think. Unlike
> > mainstream Etherites, the Artificers would probably attempt to transcend
> > their bodies, projecting themselves into the Ether-Net and turning their
> > bodies into mechanical Scientific constructs. Surprisingly, this doesn't
> > necessarily make them any less human -- although plenty of Artificers
> > would become amoral and resemble more our Technocratic ItX friends.
>
> I think they would be out of the mainstream of the main Ether style
> inventors. Instead, they'd be called 'dunderheads' for their rigid
> conformity. Or maybe they'd be regarded as a friendly craft. Would they be
> as cybernetic as the ones in the WoD are? Remember, ItX did not really get
> into the whole cybernetics thing until The Computer achieved sentience.

I prefer the friendly approach. And there would be a faction that
found the Computer, which would set up as some really nice
antagonists...

<snip>

> I like the idea of a large Imperial China, that's inscrutable and still
> ruled by an Emperor, but has embraced Ether Science along with it's own
> mysticism. Perhaps they can be the 'enemy', in that they send their
> inscrutable agents about, and any Awakened is shackled to their Minsitry of
> Works. Great for evil Asian Scientists, yellow peril, and Fu Manchu
> mastermind, as well as Charlie Chan style detectives.

Not a bad idea. The Akashics would still be opposed, and they might
find allies with the Indians and the Europeans, as well as having a
stronghold in Tibet and Thailand.

<snip>

> Well, there are obviously Mad Scientists, these are Etherites, after all!
> And because the Ether paradigm is consensual, heavens know what a Madman
> could do.
>
> I like the idea of an evil secret society, bent on world conquest, similar
> to Big Fire from Giant Robo. The Mages involved would have any number of
> different styles, but would all be in the mold of classic Victorian and Pulp
> villains, with names like Doctor Devious, the Iron Count and the Ruby
> Mandarin.

Ooo! Yes. This is great.

> Again, SEE GIANT ROBO. It's almost your setting to a T, except space.

All right, ALL RIGHT! Geez. Okay. Where would I get it, then, Mister
Smarty-pants? :)

> > I'd even suspect that America and Australia might actually be more
> > Verbena and Dreamspeaker-like, really, and that China and Japan might
> > still retain their traditional forms of rulership, but with the Advances
> > of Science to help them get ahead.
>
> Well, if Natives actually had access to Magick and spirits, then the anglo
> westward expanse may well have been stopped. If one presumes Ethical
> calculus would hold sway, then the great thinkers of the US would have
> demanded that recognition of Native rights, and a campaign of peaceful
> negotiation may result in native tribes and nations joining as member states
> of the US.

It might not, of course, hold sway. But the ones who disagree might
make up the evil secret society you were talking about, and might hold
sway in several areas of the Sphere.

But it's a great example, though. The Nations of Delaware and Sioux,
Under the Aegis of the United States and Gaia :)

> Imagine this - a US where the US *kept* all treaties made with Natives, and
> where both Immigrants and Natives are brothers, where democracy, freedome
> and tolerance are embodied as the American Dream, and also one where black
> emancipation follows a somewhat better course.
>
> Image - Teddy Roosevelt welcoming Lakota and Sioux into the US, with full US
> states rights, natives making up to 1/2 of US population, and the rest of
> the world regarding the US as half breed savages, but admiring their can do
> spirit of both settlers and natives, peacefully coming to terms. Teddy with
> native Elders, smoking peace on the White House Lawn, and by the time of the
> campaign, a black of native American president.

Of course, this could be a blow for the image of Ethical Calculus,
since if we all followed what they espoused, our nations would end up
looking like *gasp* the Americas!

What a scandal that would be!

I agree with most of that, really :) No point it taking up space.

> > On the other hand, there would be a few Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers
> > around the humans, trying to keep their existences a secret.
>
> Glass Walkers may well take Ether Spirits as totems, and be well versed in
> Ethertech!

"Brother Walken, I'd like to introduce you to Touches-the-Ether, our
Native Liaison in the United States. I'm sure the both of you will get
along well together."

<snip>

> > Not necessarily. Unless vampires are remarkably stupid and careless, I'd
> > say more than a few would integrate themselves into Etherite society.
> > There would be less Sabbat around, however, and most would be obsessed
> > with their own lives, and not try and take over the world or whatever
> > they do in V:tM. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ministry of Swords had
> > vampire personnel, or... for a sinister turn, a vampire leading it.
>
> A Vampire who was assuredly loyal to the Queen and Crown, even into Undeath.
> I'd imagine that much of the traditional Camarilla structure would exist.

Agreed. Don't know about the Sabbat, though. Would they? Maybe they'd
ally with this evil secret society.

Hey, hold on. What would happen to the Triads and the Tongs?

<snip>

> > For some reason I keep thinking of Hellboy, and the occasional ectoplasm-
> > manifesting medium. I should think that ectoplasm has a place in Etherite
> > science :)
>
> Absolutely! "My good boy, that 'ghost' is merely an Ectoplasmic construct,
> the echo of a deceased person, preserved by the Etheric Medium! We see them
> all the time, yes yes. Most are reasonable, if you do them a favor from
> time to time."

We'd also have guys who could emit ectoplasm and reach in into the Low
Etherspace to find Spirits long dead and gone. This would of course be
something rather scandalous, but not uncommon.

<snip>

> I'm sorry. I've been here on and off so long I thought everyone knew who I
> was.

It's cool, Chris. Thanks for the input. The setting's already got more
depth with input from everyone :)

> Chris Bell

Tariq Kamal

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 16, 2003, 1:56:47 PM5/16/03

Bob <a@b.c> wrote:

: Stayka deyAvemta wrote:
:> Asmodai <lo...@post.hr> wrote:

: From Aretus and Parmenides to Golo of Verditius via Bright Lions to

: Polidori to the Electrodyne Engineers thence to replace the Solificati.
: Would the Solificati have left the 9 in this paradigm?

Well, I guess it depends on whether one sticks to the stuff
about the First Cabal and the Great Betrayal, I guess.

:> Well, it would be a group that is very strong on the

:> technological outlook, IMHO. The Art of Science shtick became
:> more prominent later on, I'd say.
: Surely not with such a cutting edge view from the start. Even Golo
: would have appreciated the Art!

It depends on what exactly is written down in the Kitab al
Alacir, I guess. If the Book of Ether itself stretches the
artsy aspect of Science! then of course :-))

: When is Mage Victorian coming out anyway?

*That* I'd like to know, too :-) Currently I'm playing an
Electrodyne Engineer in an online campaign, but I'd really
like to see some more of the setting described in that time
from a mage-y (or Scientifical, of course) point of view.

:> So you can or cannot keep the Difference Engineers in this

:> projected Electropunk World.
: Difference Engineers with Etheric Engines kind of an off shoot
: of the Pythagori rather than Babbage.

Heh. That's an interesting notion, too!

: Avatar Storm great with toast! Something the revised Wod could
: do without.

Seconded ^_^ Ah heck, I *do* go without anyway...

:> : Actualy there is none... unless you go for Etherites becoming

:> : a bit more "focused" and going a bit more scientific (here Stayka
:> : screams in hapiness :))
:> Indeed! Put some more science into Science!
: Electronics is too much of an itX backward step. Would ItX
: exist would they have ever made contact with Authocthonia?

They might still be the Artificers. But then, with Voiders and
Etherites travelling through Etherspace, Autocthonia would
very likely to be found in any case.

Although, with a lot of other factions being cleaned out of
the Sphere, maybe some other faction might have found it, too.
Although I wonder what might have happened if Dreamspeakers
would have found Autocthonia.

:> Well, one could set up some reservations for them on Venus or so.

:> Maybe together with the Verbena and Dreamspeakers...
: Come see the last remaining Wolf people don't get too near the cage
: there young master!

Exactly!

:> Well, not so much eradicate them. Collect them and dissect them. They

:> are interesting subjects for study, I'd say.
: Of course and once the Etherite Authorities know they exist it is under
: licence or Modern Massassa War! This time with Arc lamps and Electro goads!

Behold my new Etheric Sunlight Raygun!

:> : Actualy i think they would get their power early... there is no way the

:> : Etherites would create Utopia
:> Off *course* they would. An Etherite Utopia! The only drawback
:> would be that maybe some other people don't see this as the
:> coolest lifestyle ever ^_^
: Fetch the Ivory Tower for re-Education!

Yes, and afterwards they would all be a happy, unified society
striving for Ascension/Enlightenment under the Banner of Science!

:> Hey, the Mad Scientists are only *one* faction of the Etherites!

: Madness is in the Eye of the beholder would you have Popper and James
: in this world let alone Freud and Skinner?

*g* Sure. They would neatly fit into the Ivory Tower, if you ask me.

:> : and humanity really ins't receptive to realyl being all nice and

:> : great to each other...
: There seems to be a tone of Brazil and 1984 to this Utopia but isn't
: there always.

Ah well, it is our duty to make is a *bright* new world, not
just a brave one ^_^

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 16, 2003, 2:30:14 PM5/16/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

: Bob <a@b.c> wrote:
:> Stayka deyAvemta wrote:

: (points to Roger, a hulking, muscular figure in the background)

: You see that man over there? That's Roger. Now, you wouldn't know it from
: here, but he's three hundred years old.
: Potions? Oh, no. He's got nothing to do with the alchemical stuff. Well,
: actually, he does. Y'see, he's a homunculus.

Maybe good friends with Doc Frankenstein's creation, hm? :-)

: How did we wake him up? He runs on juice, I mean, electricity. So we had

: Agent Newton rig up a portable Quantum Singularity Generator, and we
: plugged that in on him.

*g* There are only few things that can't be resolved by the
application of a little or More Power! ^_^

: What happened to the Old Guilds? You don't know? Well, they say the Old

: Guilds were re-absorbed by the newer Guilds, and that Solificati ideas
: still float around; you could say that the homonculus was the first
: articial Construct.

Hm... And what about the Terracotta Warriors?

: Yeah. Damn good craftsmanship, I agree. They don't make 'em like used to.

Hey, I think Doc Frankenstein's creature wasn't *that* bad
either... A bit smelly at times, okay, but still adequately
functional.

:>> So you can or cannot keep the Difference Engineers in this

:>> projected Electropunk World.
:> Difference Engineers with Etheric Engines kind of an off shoot of the
:> Pythagori rather than Babbage.
: Hmm. Instead of mechanics (hardware), more on mathematics and symbol
: logic (software). Hmm...

That would keep Artificers/ItX plus Etherites for the hardware
then? Well, it *is* said that the first computers were created
my the Electrodyne Engineers - the Difference Engineers took over
later, after all.

: Wouldn't know, really. Started with MRev, so the Avatar Storm was always
: there for me.

*curious* Did it affect your stories in any way, and if yes - how
so?

: Hmm. I think the ItX would probably end up as a transhumanist faction

: within the Etherite Majority. So they might end up finding Autochthonia,
: though I'm sure the Ministry of Swords wouldn't like that.

I think they'd like it less if some Dreamspeakers would find
it... DS Technoshamans under influence of The-Entity-also-known-
as-The-Computer seems frightening to me...

:>> Well, there are those rumours that the Changelings had a hand in the

:>> building of Victoria Station...
:> But would they still have an effect beyond Luna?
: Can't see why not. Just because Arcadia was beyond the Horizon doesn't
: mean that Changelings can't have a role to play. And humans dream, no
: matter where they are. So they would have an effect.

Hm, on the other hand, if those evil Dream/Creativity suckers are
found out, maybe they would have to be monitored too, just in
case...

: Y'see, I always wondered if Dorian Gray was one of them...

Hm... I think he was more some CoX barabbi, if you ask me...

:> There seems to be a tone of Brazil and 1984 to this Utopia but isn't

:> there always.
: Agree on that. No one's warned the world about how dangerous a socialist
: system can get, and there has never been a World War to shake the
: confidence of the Scientists.

Hmm... This might make the Scientists complacent over time - and
complacency leads to a dangerous mindset over time...

: And there are even people who insist that all history has been played

: out, and now all that's left is this Endless Golden Age of Science!
: They could be right, of course. But seriously?

There are too many envious people around who would see to it that
this won't last eternally ^_^

Towards Ascension!

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 16, 2003, 3:01:56 PM5/16/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Maybe. Hmm. To be honest, I can't think of any way we'd be able to get an

: interstellar war going, unless we multipy the current population of this
: setting by a few hundred times, and make sure that resources are
: scarce...

And what about some truly alien & evil entity invading the other
planets, threatening to take the fight to Earth proper? The the
bold Etherite space heroes would be forc- er, obliged to aid
even their competition, lest it would be unspeakable evil vs.
humanity in the first place!

: Mmm. Point noted. So the conflict might lie more in cultural and economic

: spheres, and not in terms of mere physical resources like land and oil
: (or quint).

It would still be a fight for Paradigm, at least for the ones
who initially lost out. I can see them trying to sneak back and
inserting their deviant thoughts into the Masses again.

: We'd probably see Dreamspeaker communities bemoaning the fact that not

: one of their kids are interested in the Old Ways any more...
: Which might give reason for a lot of people to leave.

Leave or try to fight back. If not openly, then definitely covertly.
Wherever there is a big overpowering leadership, there will be elements
fighting that.

: But not any of the older Sumerian and Aramaic rituals, I think. Nothing

: like the summoning of dragons, storms or fireballs. I suspect the OoH's
: focus Sphere might drift away from Forces and more into Spheres like
: Entropy, Spirit and Mind.

Well, the Etherites originally were at least as much into Forces
than into Matter. More Power! anyone? It was just the OoH's
influence in the Council that forced the Sons of Ether to take up
the Seat of Matter.
: They would. It's a matter of their attitude, I should think. Unlike

: mainstream Etherites, the Artificers would probably attempt to transcend
: their bodies, projecting themselves into the Ether-Net and turning their
: bodies into mechanical Scientific constructs. Surprisingly, this doesn't
: necessarily make them any less human -- although plenty of Artificers
: would become amoral and resemble more our Technocratic ItX friends.

Hm. I don't think the Artificers would care so much for
projecting themselves into the Ether-Net like that. I think they
would rather stick to their tools. The E'Net would be more the
realm of the Difference Engineers, Etherical Cybernauts, Ivory
Tower Information Brokers and Syndicate Cyberlaw Enforcers...

: The Proggies would still be the same, except that their focus now turns

: almost to protecting and preserving life. Almost any Scienties who takes
: the Hippocratic Oath is eligible to become a Progenitor.

Agreed. Although I think they'd have quite their share if
not-so-nice experimentators among them, too.

: Stayka's character would probably be the kind of person to join this

: universe's version of VE, really.

Definitely. Actually, A.C.Newton is absolutely on the border
between being Etherite or Voider even in my current games ^_^

: That's all I can say. Unlike a lot of

: Etherites back home (who may have responsibilities back home, or may not
: want to leave comforting surroundings), VEs would either be made of
: people who wish to defend the Earth from Things Above and Below, but also
: those who wish to explore. Depending on the size of the actual setting (I
: was originally thinking 'interstellar', but now I'm not so sure), they'd
: either be the first to travel to the stars or the ones who have traveled
: the furthest.

I guess the VE factions and the SoE factions might very well
intermix, with the Etherites taking the more Earth-centered parts
of the VEs, while the VEs would get the more space-centered parts
of the Etherites.

:> ...the Sons

:> of Ether can more or less reproduce everything these guys do in an
:> Electropunk setting. I can see an Ivory Tower (academics) and
:> Syndicate (JP Morgan style industrialists),. however.

Actually, the Etherites are more or less the Tradition-mirror of
an amalgam (pardon the pun) of VEs, ItXers and Progenitors. NWO
and Syndicate go better with OoH, I guess. (After all,
Technocrats who decide to defect will very likely end up with
either SoE (or VAs) or OoH, I'd say. Their mindsets appear to me
to be the closest available.

: Academics and Press for the Ivory Towers, really. But yeah.

And communications in general.

:> Nationalism. Instead of Mage factions, countries are waging a space

:> race, and if the Metaphysic of Magick is an open fact, governments may
:> have their favorite Mage factions backing them, with different
:> countries having colonies throught the sphere.

This would make for some really cool politicking!

: And this brings up the issue about Etherites being good guys and bad

: guys. As it is, I suspect the good or bad of what you do in this setting
: might be less related to your mystical affiliation, and more with what
: nation you belong to. For example, you might be a Dreamspeaker Shaman
: (NOT Technoshaman, just to make a point) under the British Ministry of
: Swords, but you're a Good Guy, while that Etherite Utopian might belong
: to <insert favourite nation here> and would obviously be a troublemaking
: Evil Bastard.

WEll, as many thinks this also hinges a lot on the individuals,
I'd say.

: For some reason I keep thinking of Hellboy, and the occasional ectoplasm-

: manifesting medium. I should think that ectoplasm has a place in Etherite
: science :)

Of course. Ectoplasm is just another Etheric manifestation, or
what did you think?

Ad astra!
Stayka

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 16, 2003, 3:17:38 PM5/16/03

In news:ba3anm$lr2$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de, Stayka deyAvemta
<sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:

> Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: Bob <a@b.c> wrote:
>:> Stayka deyAvemta wrote:
>: (points to Roger, a hulking, muscular figure in the background) You
>: see that man over there? That's Roger. Now, you wouldn't know it from
>: here, but he's three hundred years old. Potions? Oh, no. He's got
>: nothing to do with the alchemical stuff. Well, actually, he does.
>: Y'see, he's a homunculus.
>
> Maybe good friends with Doc Frankenstein's creation, hm? :-)

Hmm. Wasn't Frankenstein's creation called a Promethean?

>: How did we wake him up? He runs on juice, I mean, electricity. So we
>: had Agent Newton rig up a portable Quantum Singularity Generator, and
>: we plugged that in on him.
>
> *g* There are only few things that can't be resolved by the
> application of a little or More Power! ^_^

Spoken like a true Etherite :D

>: What happened to the Old Guilds? You don't know? Well, they say the
>: Old Guilds were re-absorbed by the newer Guilds, and that Solificati
>: ideas still float around; you could say that the homonculus was the
>: first articial Construct.
>
> Hm... And what about the Terracotta Warriors?

If you were gonna include the Terracotta Warriors (which were made of
natural elements, not transformed or grown ones), then we might as well
include the earlier examples of the Lion of Zion's golems, wouldn't we?

>: Yeah. Damn good craftsmanship, I agree. They don't make 'em like used
>: to.
>
> Hey, I think Doc Frankenstein's creature wasn't *that* bad either... A
> bit smelly at times, okay, but still adequately functional.

You see? This iz ze problem with ze young ones, nowadays. Never
thinking about ze future. It iz ZO annoying! Look here, little Missy,
the Frankenstein creation, az you vould so call it, it iz a reconstructed
creature! Better to work with zomething from scratch than retrofit, I
zay. Vhy bother with the flesh of dead men, which iz difficult to find
vithout attracting attention, vhen you can either grow or make your own
body?

;)

>:>> So you can or cannot keep the Difference Engineers in this
>:>> projected Electropunk World.
>:> Difference Engineers with Etheric Engines kind of an off shoot of
>:> the Pythagori rather than Babbage.
>: Hmm. Instead of mechanics (hardware), more on mathematics and symbol
>: logic (software). Hmm...
>
> That would keep Artificers/ItX plus Etherites for the hardware then?
> Well, it *is* said that the first computers were created my the
> Electrodyne Engineers - the Difference Engineers took over later,
> after all.

And there are Difference Engineers who could 'program in bare metal'
(who are held in fear and awe by other Difference Engineers). But when
it comes to sheer innovation and speed of progress, the Artificers would
beat the Difference Engineers on average in terms of hardware.

Sadly, almost all the Artificer programming is hilariously bad in terms
of robustness -- the Difference Engineers have better methods of
programming that make up for elegant, robust software.

So what does a Ether-net Runner do when he wants to burn past the 'net?
Simple -- he gets someone else to either build the hardware or software
for him, and then does his own modifications, just like in Real Life.

Hmm. Someone would be bound to think up of ideas like Operating Systems
and Hardware / Software Separation. I wonder what it'd look like.

Anyone wanna give a try and speculate on this bit?

>: Wouldn't know, really. Started with MRev, so the Avatar Storm was
>: always there for me.
>
> *curious* Did it affect your stories in any way, and if yes - how so?

Not so much. I mean, I guess it put my stories a lot in material
reality, and I basically waited for the Infinite Tapestry to tell me how
would someone bypass the Avatar Storm.

When they told me about Disassociation, I just went, "Oh. So it can't be
long trips, then. Okay." And then, of course, I kept thinking of how
you'd subvert Disassociation...

I mean, I've never known it as 'harder' or 'easier', really. So we can't
step into the Umbra. No biggie.

Besides, a fave faction would be either the NWO or the Batini, and THEY
don't get out in the Umbra much, but are still quite cool.

I'll tell you this, though. I'd sure like to see some Giant Robots or
mechas.

>: Hmm. I think the ItX would probably end up as a transhumanist faction
>: within the Etherite Majority. So they might end up finding
>: Autochthonia, though I'm sure the Ministry of Swords wouldn't like
>: that.
>
> I think they'd like it less if some Dreamspeakers would find it... DS
> Technoshamans under influence of The-Entity-also-known-
> as-The-Computer seems frightening to me...

Oh ho ho ho. Even better -- scarier opponents! Me, I don't think the
setting is much worth it if there's nothing to fight or get my ass
kicked with.

>:>> Well, there are those rumours that the Changelings had a hand in
>:>> the building of Victoria Station...
>:> But would they still have an effect beyond Luna?
>: Can't see why not. Just because Arcadia was beyond the Horizon
>: doesn't mean that Changelings can't have a role to play. And humans
>: dream, no matter where they are. So they would have an effect.
>
> Hm, on the other hand, if those evil Dream/Creativity suckers are
> found out, maybe they would have to be monitored too, just in case...

I'm sure. We don't want them ravaging ordinary people with their damn
alien powers!

>: Y'see, I always wondered if Dorian Gray was one of them...
>
> Hm... I think he was more some CoX barabbi, if you ask me...

Really? That's reasonable, I suppose.

>:> There seems to be a tone of Brazil and 1984 to this Utopia but isn't
>:> there always.
>: Agree on that. No one's warned the world about how dangerous a
>: socialist system can get, and there has never been a World War to
>: shake the confidence of the Scientists.
>
> Hmm... This might make the Scientists complacent over time - and
> complacency leads to a dangerous mindset over time...

Yup. Ex-actly. Then it's the sort of society that needs shaking up,
because it does mean that they're subtly falling into Stasis...

>: And there are even people who insist that all history has been played
>: out, and now all that's left is this Endless Golden Age of Science!
>: They could be right, of course. But seriously?
>
> There are too many envious people around who would see to it that this
> won't last eternally ^_^

Envious and ANGRY people, of course! I suppose it's the same with RL and
WoD too.

> Towards Ascension!
> Stayka

Towards More Monkeys!
Tariq ;)

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 16, 2003, 3:25:19 PM5/16/03

Agent Groove <x...@zyx.net> wrote:
: Well, we're automatically assuming the Ethers will all be priggish

: Victorians. My guess is that for every Great White Hunter, that there will
: also be some brash american inventor, a la Ford and Edison. While the Ether
: paradigm is the basis of reality, there's wide room for many national
: interpretations. For example, American Ethers may well be more egalitarian
: and brash, allowing *gasp* women to join their ranks.

*g* I think there will be more forward women around who manage to
fight their way into the ranks of those backward male chauvinist
pigs, just because :-)))

And anyway, I think one should not forget that Paris has the
Great Hall of the Sons of Ether, not London... So I think there
should be quite some Etherites influenced by the French way of
life, too... Vive la revolution!

: Also remember that the 1800's were the age of Marx, Crowley, Annie Besant

: and any number of differing social reformers. If the Sphere follows the
: tone of western expansionism into a new frontier and colonialism, this may
: be the age where social barriers crumble and where Science! breaks down old
: rules of economics.

<some stuff snipped for brevity>
: Also note one thing - if the Metaphysic of Magick is open knowledge, then

: people know that Mages exist and that resources are theoretically infinite.
: Ether transforms can transform Raw Ether into Gold, Food or whatever else
: you want. This whacks the hell out of conventional capitalism, and creates
: more of a situation similar to Star Trek with it's replicators. "This is
: the age of Science, m'boy! People work because they want to, not because
: they have to! Of course my Organatron can make a nice, juicy prime rib!"

Actually one would have to take the benefits of this under close
scrutiny, as it would indeed shape a wholy different society.
Even Star Trek hasn't explored this to the fullest, IMHO. And
the problem would of course be the access to this technology.
One could build up whole new power structures determined on the
possibility of access to this technology.

Properly used, transporter technology would be an effective
healing method, too. I guess the Progenitors wouldn't be to
amused by that (or they would be the one controlling this kind of
tech, of course.) Using transporter technology for DNA-meshing
would be neat, too...

: The big resources would be Condensed Ether (Quintessence) and the belief of

: the Masses. Those are the only two resources which Mages really need.

Agreed.

: If there was indeed widespread belief in spirits, and a tacit

: acknowledgement of Magick (remember, the Metaphysic is public knowledge,
: even the dullest person *knows* that belief creates reality), I feel that
: different Reality Sets would be tolerated, but restricted to colonies or
: remote locals. Further, there may well be a degree of integration. For
: example...

I'd say this would make the Ivory Tower even more important. They'd
have to set out eradicating unwanted sets of thought lest they'd
become reality by Willworking.

: Dragons and such are definitely out. Dinosaurs are *much* more Etherite.

: But the paradigm is much less hostile to Hermetic arts than the current WoD
: one is. I'd imagine that the Order would straddle the line between vulgar
: and coincidental, and would be allowed to keep Horizon Realms and secret
: sanctuaries. I've always been a proponent of different Traditions's
: sub-groups having different specialty Spheres anyway, so I can see Hermetics
: being big into the aforementioned Spheres.

And tomorrow we will visit the Horizon Realm 'Funtasia'. You
know, nothing there is truly for real, of course, but the Order
thought it might be a fun entertainment, so we let them set it
up. Think of it as a real-life Disneyworld, with creatures of
myths or legends. It's just for fun of course, so don't ger any
notions...

: The problem with Science! Is that it's capable of creating infinite supply!

: But I'm sure that Financiers (that sounds like a more appropo name for them,
: or maybe the World Bankers) feel that the best human capital is creativity
: and ideas, which they would seek to trade in. The Syndicate in this setting
: could be at it's best every Horatio Alger myth made real, except for those
: damned Craftmasons, organizing the help and driving up labor costs.

Well, even if infinite supply *could* be created, there would be
still the matter of distribution, of course.

: I think they would be out of the mainstream of the main Ether style

: inventors. Instead, they'd be called 'dunderheads' for their rigid
: conformity. Or maybe they'd be regarded as a friendly craft. Would they be
: as cybernetic as the ones in the WoD are? Remember, ItX did not really get
: into the whole cybernetics thing until The Computer achieved sentience.

Well, they would be in tools all the way... I think from that to
cybernetic enhancements is not too big a step, given their general
mindset.

: Imagine this - a US where the US *kept* all treaties made with Natives, and

: where both Immigrants and Natives are brothers, where democracy, freedome
: and tolerance are embodied as the American Dream, and also one where black
: emancipation follows a somewhat better course.

Interesting notion!

Clear Ether!
Stayka (trying to shortcut her reply a bit. I always talk too much,
I guess ^_^)

Asmodai

unread,

May 16, 2003, 3:43:59 PM5/16/03

> Hmm. Geez. No, not like that. How would real-life Nagah fight in Balaram
> form with boobies like that? And I've known women with D-Cups. They all
> complain of how it hurts to run, 'cause of all that bouncing.

Actualy i am more impressed by the fact that most female Crinos froms have
boobies... Wouldn't it be more suitable to have a combat form wihotu
dangling masses of fat? (not that i am complaining :))

> Hmm. I wonder who makes Lara Croft's bras? :)

They are probably made from titanium... that would explain why seh cna get
shout up and still walk away... and why she isn't getting hit in the face in
any of her jumps...

--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asm...@post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :)
---------------------------------------------------

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 16, 2003, 4:12:46 PM5/16/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:

: Hmm. Wasn't Frankenstein's creation called a Promethean?

Yes, "modern Prometheus", to be precise. Actually this was
somewhat strange... Prometheus wasn't a design after all.
Pandora, on the other hand, would be definitely eligible.

:> *g* There are only few things that can't be resolved by the

:> application of a little or More Power! ^_^
: Spoken like a true Etherite :D

I still think I should one day adapt Tim Taylor as Etherite.
He'd be *perfect*.

: If you were gonna include the Terracotta Warriors (which were made of

: natural elements, not transformed or grown ones), then we might as well
: include the earlier examples of the Lion of Zion's golems, wouldn't we?

Hm. And even earlier Pandora of course. (For reference check
Hesiod's Theogony.)

: You see? This iz ze problem with ze young ones, nowadays. Never

: thinking about ze future. It iz ZO annoying! Look here, little Missy,
: the Frankenstein creation, az you vould so call it, it iz a reconstructed
: creature! Better to work with zomething from scratch than retrofit, I
: zay. Vhy bother with the flesh of dead men, which iz difficult to find
: vithout attracting attention, vhen you can either grow or make your own
: body?

LOL! Makes me think of the Ascension Warrior from the Horizon
War trilogy. Now *that* was a cool feat of (g)en(e)gineering...

: And there are Difference Engineers who could 'program in bare metal'

: (who are held in fear and awe by other Difference Engineers). But when
: it comes to sheer innovation and speed of progress, the Artificers would
: beat the Difference Engineers on average in terms of hardware.
:
: Sadly, almost all the Artificer programming is hilariously bad in terms
: of robustness -- the Difference Engineers have better methods of
: programming that make up for elegant, robust software.
:
: So what does a Ether-net Runner do when he wants to burn past the 'net?
: Simple -- he gets someone else to either build the hardware or software
: for him, and then does his own modifications, just like in Real Life.
:
: Hmm. Someone would be bound to think up of ideas like Operating Systems
: and Hardware / Software Separation. I wonder what it'd look like.
:
: Anyone wanna give a try and speculate on this bit?

Well, I think you already put it together well enough. Let the
ItXers (and probably Etherites) care for the hardware, while
Difference Engineers and Ivory Tower would be better suited to
take a software-ish approach.

: Besides, a fave faction would be either the NWO or the Batini, and THEY

: don't get out in the Umbra much, but are still quite cool.

^_^ Well, with my liking for Ethernauts and Voiders, the Revised
ideas on Umba/Etherspace absolutely don't jive with me... How can
you set up colonies out there then? And I think of all the Voiders
in the Cop... The people on the other planet's moons etc... Naw.
Not in my WoDiverse.

: I'll tell you this, though. I'd sure like to see some Giant Robots or
: mechas.

Well, I think both Etherites and Artificer will love to build them.

:> I think they'd like it less if some Dreamspeakers would find it...

:> DS Technoshamans under influence of The-Entity-also-known-
:> as-The-Computer seems frightening to me...
: Oh ho ho ho. Even better -- scarier opponents! Me, I don't think the
: setting is much worth it if there's nothing to fight or get my ass
: kicked with.

Yeah... the DS guides by The Computer Spirit ^_^ *shudder*

:> Hm, on the other hand, if those evil Dream/Creativity suckers are

:> found out, maybe they would have to be monitored too, just in case...
: I'm sure. We don't want them ravaging ordinary people with their damn
: alien powers!

Exactly! No one knows the long term effects of that!

: Yup. Ex-actly. Then it's the sort of society that needs shaking up,

: because it does mean that they're subtly falling into Stasis...

Maybe by an all-out invasion from Nasty Things From Outer Space [tm]

:> There are too many envious people around who would see to it that this

:> won't last eternally ^_^
: Envious and ANGRY people, of course! I suppose it's the same with RL and
: WoD too.

Especially when all the Mysticks try to undermine society secretly
to wrest back the control over reality... (But we won't let them!)

Clear Ether!

Olof Jönsson

unread,

May 16, 2003, 4:36:56 PM5/16/03

"Stayka deyAvemta" <sta...@saint-seiya.de> skrev i meddelandet
news:ba3gnu$muf$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de...

> I still think I should one day adapt Tim Taylor as Etherite.
> He'd be *perfect*.

"You know what this Aethership needs?" "Oh no." "MORE POWER! *grunt grunt
grunt*!"´"Oh God, get him away from the Aetheric Dynamo!"

Olof Jönsson.
Why not visit my website at http://w1.455.telia.com/~u45522850/index.html
or my webcomics at http://w1.455.telia.com/~u45522850/doublefeat.htm

//...because Rictus wants you to...

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 16, 2003, 4:49:45 PM5/16/03

"Olof Jönsson" <6jn...@telia.com> wrote:
: "Stayka deyAvemta" <sta...@saint-seiya.de> skrev i meddelandet
:> I still think I should one day adapt Tim Taylor as Etherite.

:> He'd be *perfect*.
: "You know what this Aethership needs?" "Oh no." "MORE POWER! *grunt grunt

: grunt*!"?"Oh God, get him away from the Aetheric Dynamo!"

And here I present to you the Binford Etheric Matter Conversion
Engine...

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 16, 2003, 6:40:52 PM5/16/03

In news:ba3f1f$e26$1...@as201.hinet.hr, "Asmodai" <lo...@post.hr> wrote:

>
>> Hmm. Geez. No, not like that. How would real-life Nagah fight in
>> Balaram form with boobies like that? And I've known women with
>> D-Cups. They all complain of how it hurts to run, 'cause of all that
>> bouncing.
>
> Actualy i am more impressed by the fact that most female Crinos froms
> have boobies... Wouldn't it be more suitable to have a combat form
> wihotu dangling masses of fat? (not that i am complaining :))

No they DON'T. Only pregnant ones do. I remember reading it from
somewhere--

Hmm. I can't find the right book for it. Go figure. Does anyone remember?

>> Hmm. I wonder who makes Lara Croft's bras? :)
>
> They are probably made from titanium... that would explain why seh cna
> get shout up and still walk away... and why she isn't getting hit in
> the face in any of her jumps...

Tell me about it. I know a couple of people (myself included) that used
to do all sorts of ridiculous things when playing Tomb Raider.

Of course, I'm surprised why her spine doesn't snap, really. But still,
I'd like to meet Lara's bra-maker. Those are one hell of a pair of bras.

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 16, 2003, 9:08:59 PM5/16/03

In news:ba3duv$meb$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de, Stayka deyAvemta
<sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:

> Agent Groove <x...@zyx.net> wrote:
>: Well, we're automatically assuming the Ethers will all be priggish
>: Victorians. My guess is that for every Great White Hunter, that
>: there will also be some brash american inventor, a la Ford and
>: Edison. While the Ether paradigm is the basis of reality, there's
>: wide room for many national interpretations. For example, American
>: Ethers may well be more egalitarian and brash, allowing *gasp* women
>: to join their ranks.
>
> *g* I think there will be more forward women around who manage to
> fight their way into the ranks of those backward male chauvinist
> pigs, just because :-)))
>
> And anyway, I think one should not forget that Paris has the
> Great Hall of the Sons of Ether, not London... So I think there
> should be quite some Etherites influenced by the French way of
> life, too... Vive la revolution!

I think the attitudes would be different, at any rate. England's
Victorian Age would be seen as something quite ripe for collapse,
especially if it lasted far longer than it did.

I'm just curious, though. Stayka's right, of course, in saying that
Etherite thought would be most concentrated in France. England would of
course be a hotbed of intrigue and politics, with several groups, from
the British Etherites (hmm. The Council of Avalon. Neat, no?) to the
Order of the Golden Dawn, and any number of the Irish and Scots bringing
in Verbana ideals.

Germany... won't Germany be called something like Prussia, ruled by a
Kaiser? To be honest, I'm quite in the dark about Western European
History -- we never covered it when we were in secondary school.

And I keep suspecting that Russia would have a powerful Tsar, who would
be forced to maintain the balance between the Mongol Shamans, the Rodina
branch of Verbana, Etherite Science and Chorister Influence.

Italy... hmm. Well, the Roman Catholic Church is there, so there's more
conflict between the Celestial Chorus and the Syndicate Financier, who
find their Etherite Sciences hampered by populist labour movements
incited by the Choristers.

Makes me wonder, now, though. Would the Choristers accept other religions
into their ranks? I presume the Reformation should happen, therefore
their idea of One World, One God would be shattered by the Protestant
movement.

It's hard to not let the Choristers add in other religions like in the RL
WoD, and I suspect that they would, judging by the influence of the
Ethical Calculus, which could be called the New Scriptures of God--

Hey. Hey, cool. This could be the Sphere's equivalent of Dune's Orange
Catholic Bible, except with its underpinnings rooted in Math!

I could even see scholars from other religions trying, with the aid of
Etherite thinking machines, to understand and intergrate their scriptures
with the Etherite Ethical Calculus. It would be a fringe movement, to be
sure for about several hundred years for so...

Hmm. Not a bad idea. I'm sure some people wouldn't find it comfortable
playing, at any rate, so this should be an Optional Rule.

I'm picturing an Etherite workshop, with holy images of her religion.
When asked, she'd probably reply:

"All Science can show me is humanity and the Universe. True Science has
neither claimed to replace or show me God. It is both my Science and my
Faith that powers my inventions -- neither works without the other."

<snip>

>: The big resources would be Condensed Ether (Quintessence) and the
>: belief of the Masses. Those are the only two resources which Mages
>: really need.
>
> Agreed.

Smaller resources, like previously stated, might actually be belief and
Paradigm (generated by the Masses -- the Awakened should be more common,
but not as commonas Sleepers and Advanced Scientists and Sorcerers are)
and labour. We could just leave slavery hanging up in the air, or make it
impermissible by Ethical Calculus, as a violation of a human's personal
rights. Which could of course bring up the issues of what a Construct's
personal rights are...

>: If there was indeed widespread belief in spirits, and a tacit
>: acknowledgement of Magick (remember, the Metaphysic is public
>: knowledge, even the dullest person *knows* that belief creates
>: reality), I feel that different Reality Sets would be tolerated, but
>: restricted to colonies or remote locals. Further, there may well be
>: a degree of integration. For example...
>
> I'd say this would make the Ivory Tower even more important. They'd
> have to set out eradicating unwanted sets of thought lest they'd
> become reality by Willworking.

Yes. This should worry a lot of Craftmasons, Euthanatos, Batini and
Hermetics. When would it be too much, before lines have to be set? Who
watches the watchmen?

<snip>

> And tomorrow we will visit the Horizon Realm 'Funtasia'. You
> know, nothing there is truly for real, of course, but the Order
> thought it might be a fun entertainment, so we let them set it
> up. Think of it as a real-life Disneyworld, with creatures of
> myths or legends. It's just for fun of course, so don't ger any
> notions...

Man, I can see Crowley foaming and spinning in the grave, now :)

Ooh. A campaign that has a group of Scientiests, with their children,
trapped in Funtasia, while the magical wards would *mysteriously fail*.
It'd be just like Jurassic Park.

>: The problem with Science! Is that it's capable of creating infinite
>: supply! But I'm sure that Financiers (that sounds like a more appropo
>: name for them, or maybe the World Bankers) feel that the best human
>: capital is creativity and ideas, which they would seek to trade in.
>: The Syndicate in this setting could be at it's best every Horatio
>: Alger myth made real, except for those damned Craftmasons, organizing
>: the help and driving up labor costs.
>
> Well, even if infinite supply *could* be created, there would be
> still the matter of distribution, of course.

There's that. There's only so much you can carry, while being acceptable
and safe, I should think. We might just require that a LOT of Ether-quint
is needed to make Tass, so Tass might be the best way to ship magical
energy (small amounts of quint can be translated to light using Forces,
or sent via quantum entanglement, using Correspondence, but it gets to
the point where it becomes impractical -- you start using more quint than
you're sending). Unfortunately, there's only so much to go around before
you start perturbing the fabric of Etherspace with your wake, thus
screwing around passers-by and planets.

>: I think they would be out of the mainstream of the main Ether style
>: inventors. Instead, they'd be called 'dunderheads' for their rigid
>: conformity. Or maybe they'd be regarded as a friendly craft. Would
>: they be as cybernetic as the ones in the WoD are? Remember, ItX did
>: not really get into the whole cybernetics thing until The Computer
>: achieved sentience.
>
> Well, they would be in tools all the way... I think from that to
> cybernetic enhancements is not too big a step, given their general
> mindset.

Agreed. I'd argue that since they'd be mixing around with Technomantic
Dreamspeakers, one they they'd find the realm of Autochthonia...

>: Imagine this - a US where the US *kept* all treaties made with
>: Natives, and where both Immigrants and Natives are brothers, where
>: democracy, freedome and tolerance are embodied as the American Dream,
>: and also one where black emancipation follows a somewhat better
>: course.
>
> Interesting notion!

It is. And it does mean that in the US, there is no one dominant paradigm
-- all paradigms work. Which would be great for a great many people, but
a bitch for Americans when they visit other countries.

> Clear Ether!
> Stayka (trying to shortcut her reply a bit. I always talk too much,
> I guess ^_^)

Don't know about the rest of you, but I prefer Stayka talking then not;
both she and Chris do great input.

More Talking!
Tariq Kamal

Asmodai

unread,

May 17, 2003, 2:06:20 AM5/17/03

> > Actualy i am more impressed by the fact that most female Crinos froms
> > have boobies... Wouldn't it be more suitable to have a combat form
> > wihotu dangling masses of fat? (not that i am complaining :))
> No they DON'T. Only pregnant ones do. I remember reading it from
> somewhere--

Hmm i think, that you have messed somethign up... they need to be in Crinso
to give birth to Metis and live...

But just take a lok at the artwork... check th Kitsune... the Bastet... even
the Garou :)
Though i must conclude that it is a thing among different artists... they
seem to each have their own vision of how female "Crinoses" look like

> Of course, I'm surprised why her spine doesn't snap, really. But still,
> I'd like to meet Lara's bra-maker. Those are one hell of a pair of bras.

Actually i beleive it may have soemthing to do with her spine acting just
like a piece of metal with 2 or3 joints... did you notice that she cannot
bend properly?

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 17, 2003, 2:02:53 PM5/17/03

In news:ba4jib$1m46$4...@as201.hinet.hr, "Asmodai" <lo...@post.hr> wrote:

> Hmm i think, that you have messed somethign up... they need to be in
> Crinso to give birth to Metis and live...
>
> But just take a lok at the artwork... check th Kitsune... the
> Bastet... even the Garou :)
> Though i must conclude that it is a thing among different artists...
> they seem to each have their own vision of how female "Crinoses" look
> like
>

<snip>

At any rate, it's canon. Check out Werewolf Storyteller's Handbook
(2002), page 23.

And I quote:

"The Crinos form is not a form designed for giving birth or nursing.
Breasts would get in the way. The Crinos does have breasts and nipples,
of course, but they don't become evident unless the werewolf is lactating
in Crinos, which happens only if the mother is nursing a metis cub."

Yeah, so it only happens when you're nursing a metis cub. Yeah, I'm sure
that part of the Litany gets broken more often than it used to, but
still, seeing a Garou with boobies should still be relatively uncommon.

Tariq Kamal

Asmodai

unread,

May 17, 2003, 3:58:42 PM5/17/03

> Yeah, so it only happens when you're nursing a metis cub. Yeah, I'm sure
> that part of the Litany gets broken more often than it used to, but
> still, seeing a Garou with boobies should still be relatively uncommon.

Then i really am stumped by the choices the artists made over the years :)
There is quite a number of female Fera in "battle forms" that are evidently
female...

BTW... i don't like ST's handbooks much.. after buying VtM: Revised STH, i
sort of got pissed off at the price and never looked at one after that... i
still use the 2nded Storytellers handbook for Werewolf

Agent Groove

unread,

May 17, 2003, 11:15:18 PM5/17/03

Selectively snipping and replying. The thread has gotten so big that I must
selectively snip and reply. However, the conversation is very stimulating
so far.

> Italy... hmm. Well, the Roman Catholic Church is there, so there's more
> conflict between the Celestial Chorus and the Syndicate Financier, who
> find their Etherite Sciences hampered by populist labour movements
> incited by the Choristers.

I don't see Ether science and religion or Socialism/Labor movements as at
odds. In fact, Ether Science can be a Craftmason rallying cry - "Science
for all!" They'd demand that the fruits of research be instituted at the
factory levels, to increase worker safety, spread health care, and so on. I
think many Electrodyne Engineers and Craftmasons would be zelous social
reformers.

Of course, slavery of any kind would be anathema to any Etherite, IMO, as
would large scale social manipulation to inculcate belief. "The Kitab Al
Acir was written so we could all be free, not slaves!"

> Makes me wonder, now, though. Would the Choristers accept other religions
> into their ranks? I presume the Reformation should happen, therefore
> their idea of One World, One God would be shattered by the Protestant
> movement.

The Chorus in ancient history was always pantheistic, so I see no reason why
it couldn't be here. However, as the Chorus would reflect modern religious
breakdowns, the Chorus would be overwhelmingly christian, with an even split
between catholics and protestants.

While Choristers wouldn't openly war with Ethers or other Technomantic
factions, the Choristers of this age would strive to be society's
conscience, warning of the peril of reaching too fast, too far with Science.
"Science must be used to uphold God's law and plan, not to break it!
Remember, these powers that we have, where we can bring our beliefs into
reality, are by his will, not ours!"

The core of the Chorus would be rather Euchemenical, however, with many
different faiths being represented.

> It's hard to not let the Choristers add in other religions like in the RL
> WoD, and I suspect that they would, judging by the influence of the
> Ethical Calculus, which could be called the New Scriptures of God--

There may be a sect within the Chorus, yes, but I think that the chorus
would deal with the issue of religion vs science in the same way that the
modern christian denominations deal with it - St Thomas Aquinas, for
example, who was instrumental in the Counter-Reformation, made it clear that
science was not contrary to God's will, but an expression of it - and that
scientific knowledge was the tool of man to hold dominion over the world, as
is God's will.

Since Ether science can easily explain even most mystical phenomena, what
some faithful would call miracle or acts of faith would be considered by
Scientists the action of creation by will and belief via Awakened insight.
Thus, Scientists, I think, would have no trouble with religious Mages, so
long as they don't get in the way of the progress of Science - in fact, I
see many Mages in this setting as being capable of deep religious faith.
The more conservative conventions (Ivory Tower, etc) may even be strong
allies of the Choristers, as religion would be seen as a necessary strength
for societies. The Financiers may well get annoyed with the Choristers, as
the Choristers may well the conscience of Mages everywhere. The Choristers
would be midway between conservative social mores and charitable social
action.

Of course, they *would not* like Hermetic mages, not one tiny bit, since the
Hermetics would be riding the wave of victorian-style spiritualism, part of
secret lodges, and irreverent users of religious symbolism. However, there
may also be Rabbis amongst the Chorus who do exactly the same thing with
Quabbalah, amongst hassidic jewish sects like the Lubavitch and Satmar.

> Hey. Hey, cool. This could be the Sphere's equivalent of Dune's Orange
> Catholic Bible, except with its underpinnings rooted in Math!

Not really. I think the Choristers would leave science alone, and regard
right living as coming from faith and the heart, not math.

> I could even see scholars from other religions trying, with the aid of
> Etherite thinking machines, to understand and intergrate their scriptures
> with the Etherite Ethical Calculus. It would be a fringe movement, to be
> sure for about several hundred years for so...

A heretical movement in the Chorus, led by... Iteration X! "When our
difference engine reaches it's final Iteration, we will know all the names
of God!" Combine hebraic numerology and 40's style computers to taste.

> Smaller resources, like previously stated, might actually be belief and
> Paradigm (generated by the Masses -- the Awakened should be more common,
> but not as commonas Sleepers and Advanced Scientists and Sorcerers are)
> and labour. We could just leave slavery hanging up in the air, or make it
> impermissible by Ethical Calculus, as a violation of a human's personal
> rights. Which could of course bring up the issues of what a Construct's
> personal rights are...

I think that being the ultimate source of Science and creativity, most
ethical scientists would be aghast at slavery. Not to say that there
wouldn't be evil Scientists who reject ethical calculus - this may be what
that super villain society I discussed earlier may be about, who embrace a
'triumph of the will' Nietschian view, in that only the strongest should
rule. Etherites and fascists do go well together, in the Tradition's darker
aspects.

> >: If there was indeed widespread belief in spirits, and a tacit
> >: acknowledgement of Magick (remember, the Metaphysic is public
> >: knowledge, even the dullest person *knows* that belief creates
> >: reality), I feel that different Reality Sets would be tolerated, but
> >: restricted to colonies or remote locals. Further, there may well be
> >: a degree of integration. For example...

It's NOT tacit in this setting. The Kitab Al Acir is quite clear, and is
read by every school child - belief and will create reality. The
inhabitants in this setting accept this fact the way we accept gravity and
breathing.

> > I'd say this would make the Ivory Tower even more important. They'd
> > have to set out eradicating unwanted sets of thought lest they'd
> > become reality by Willworking.

I don't think that the Ivory Tower would quite function like the NWO in the
canon setting does. Instead, they'd be like Rathbone's Skeleton Keys - They
know that the Cat is out of the Bag in regards to the Metaphysic. Instead,
they are the silent defenders of the world, arresting and eliminating
Scientists, Occultists and other members of the shadow world that threaten
the safety of the world at large. They would also preserve ancient,
forbidden knowledge, and would have both Etheric Science as well as Hermes
style ritual magicians amongst them, scholars who know forbidden knowledge,
dispatched secretly to deal with the darkest threats, like the outer gods,
ancient demons, insane scientific (or Scientific) developments. They'd
include on their teams Akashic Shao Lin Priests, american gunslingers and
shamans, Ethernauts with their Ozone rifles and Chakravat ghost hunters,
bravely striking into the darkness, keeping at bay things which Man Was Not
Meant To Know. The Ivory Tower would also be the premiere archaeological
organization of the world, cataloging ancient cultures for posterity while
sealing away dangerous secrets.

Finally, the Tower would also have an abiding interest in traditional
academics, being foremost scholars in history, mathematics, and all manner
of Arts and Sciences.

The Ivory Tower would also be the premiere witch hunting organization in the
world, on a constant watch for the dreaded Antediluvians and the onset of
Gehenna. Definitely, think of the Hellsing Organization from the Hellsing
anime or the League of Extraordinary Gentleman. The Tower woudl perhaps not
be so much of a Mage Faction with a set paradigm as more of a league of many
disparate Mages who keep the world safe. Of course, they would control the
Ministry of Swords.

> Yes. This should worry a lot of Craftmasons, Euthanatos, Batini and
> Hermetics. When would it be too much, before lines have to be set? Who
> watches the watchmen?

See above. The Ivory Tower would be an allie and watchman of the Tower, and
perhaps the ancient wizards of Quaesitor would have joint membership, with
the proviso that the Hermetics can work their arts in peace, so long as they
allow themselves to be monitored by the Ivory Tower. In return, the
lorehouses and mighty wizardries of the Order would be made available to the
Ivory Tower as needed. When Gehenna comes, and the ancients arise,
thirsting for blood, more than Science will be needed to defeat them, and
the Ivory Tower plans on being ready, at all costs.

Seriously, the Order, as part of it's Sphere mandate, may maintain with the
Verbena mythic realms that preserve creatures of myth such as Unicorns and
such, as well as Dragons, as refuges for mythic flora, fauna and beings.
Such realms would *not* be available for casual perusing, although the
Electrodyne Engineers and other Mage factions may be allowed access at
special request and for good reason. On colony worlds like Venus, mythic
creatures may well frolic and live in harmony (not necessarily peace) with
humanity.

> Man, I can see Crowley foaming and spinning in the grave, now :)

Oh no. Crowley would be a mighty Archmage of the Order, who also holds
joint membership in the Cult of Ecstasy. Only by the bearest of margins do
the Investiagtors of the Ivory Tower not hunt him down, were it not for his
leadership within the Society of the Golden Dawn (the GD could be made into
a larger sleeper-mage political/fraternal/magical/religious group, and one
of the Order of Herme's bulwarks of political power.) The Choristers, of
course, want that blasphemer's head on a stick.

>
> There's that. There's only so much you can carry, while being acceptable
> and safe, I should think. We might just require that a LOT of Ether-quint
> is needed to make Tass, so Tass might be the best way to ship magical
> energy (small amounts of quint can be translated to light using Forces,
> or sent via quantum entanglement, using Correspondence, but it gets to
> the point where it becomes impractical -- you start using more quint than
> you're sending). Unfortunately, there's only so much to go around before
> you start perturbing the fabric of Etherspace with your wake, thus
> screwing around passers-by and planets.

Plus, only Master Scientists and the Like (Prime 5) can make new Etheric
Junctures (Nodes, as per Mage Rev), so care must be taken. A careful
balance must be struck, since the wall between material reality and
Etherspace must be kept thin enough to allow a reasonable flow of etheric
vibrations to enter reality, enabling Etheric Science to be done without
difficulty and allowing Nodes to be strong, yet not so weak that Etheric
Manifestations cause undue trouble. The Ivory Tower may have as it's
thankless task the job of hunting down and ejecting back to Etherspace
unwanted visitors, and Gauntlet strength may be limited by international
treaty, Etheric symposiums and the like. In America, the Gauntlet will be
noticeably thinner, but that's because those barbaric Wolfman creatures
savagely destroyed any hostile creatures, and carefully usher more benign,
confused beings back home. Americans!

<<onto the America subthread>>

> It is. And it does mean that in the US, there is no one dominant paradigm
> -- all paradigms work. Which would be great for a great many people, but
> a bitch for Americans when they visit other countries.

"Let me tell ya somethin. We're America, land of the free, home of the
brave. Lady Liberty opens her arms to anyone who wants to work hard and get
along with their neighbor. Respect the land, respect each other, vote!
Those Europeans are jealous of us because we know Science better than they
do, stuck like they are in backwards thinking! Over here are the great
inventors - Ford, Edison, the Wright Brothers! And other willworkers are
pitching in, landing a hand. The Tribes welcomed us with open arms, when
Europe kicked us out. Now, my sister is married a tribesman. We're going to
make the american dream real, just you wait!"

Joey Santini, dock foreman, Brooklyn

Ascend On,

Agent Groove

unread,

May 17, 2003, 11:49:36 PM5/17/03

"Stayka deyAvemta" <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote in message
news:ba3cj4$m4s$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de...

> Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> : Maybe. Hmm. To be honest, I can't think of any way we'd be able to get
an
> : interstellar war going, unless we multipy the current population of this
> : setting by a few hundred times, and make sure that resources are
> : scarce...

I want to see the Iron Kaiser with fleets of iron-clad spaceships, seizing
the riches of the Ether, opposing him captain nemo-esque fellows in crosses
between submarines and flash gordon rocketships. There's no reason that
evil mongo-style space empires can't be Out There. In fact, I know of few
perfect antagonist for such a setting -

Space Emperor Drangar, a master of Ether Science himself, and his legions!

The Martians, from War of the Worlds! Tripods, BEM's, etc

On Mars itself, kingdoms with both bizarre (maybe hostile, maybe friendly)
aliens, near humans with different colored skin and ancient, archaic
cultures (Barsoom), and so on. Drangar and his Red Desert Empire may well
be opposed by the ancient kingdoms of the canals, such as the City States of
Bashra and Kasheem. Strange Ether fluxes can carry people from Earth to
here, where they adventure!

> And what about some truly alien & evil entity invading the other
> planets, threatening to take the fight to Earth proper? The the
> bold Etherite space heroes would be forc- er, obliged to aid
> even their competition, lest it would be unspeakable evil vs.
> humanity in the first place!

The Martians and their tripods, definitely!

> : Mmm. Point noted. So the conflict might lie more in cultural and
economic
> : spheres, and not in terms of mere physical resources like land and oil
> : (or quint).

There are also ideologies, and control over who commands such resources.

> It would still be a fight for Paradigm, at least for the ones
> who initially lost out. I can see them trying to sneak back and
> inserting their deviant thoughts into the Masses again.

Stop that Technocracy talk! The Kitab Al Acir teaches us that belief and
will can create any reality, and as we know, the best reality is created by
the sensible, logical, yet artistic and imaginative ways of study of the
Ether and true Science!

I don't think the battle will be over which Paradigm will be in charge -
Science! Has won. It will be more of a battle to determine whether or not
Paradigms can peacefully co-exist with each other, and how Mankind will use
the opportunities afforded by space exploration and modernism, and how they
will change the world and humanity.

> : We'd probably see Dreamspeaker communities bemoaning the fact that not
> : one of their kids are interested in the Old Ways any more...
> : Which might give reason for a lot of people to leave.
>
> Leave or try to fight back. If not openly, then definitely covertly.
> Wherever there is a big overpowering leadership, there will be elements
> fighting that.

Or, go to America, where the Old Ways of Medicine work hand in hand with
Science, and where immigrants respect the lands and rights of natives...
most of the time. Of course, this may be hard for aboriginals from outside
the americas.

The untouched areas of the Americas may well be on offered refuge to Shamans
from other areas of the world who have been crowded by industrialization.
In the US, the land of the american dream, shamans from many cultures join
together in brotherhood, travelling to North America with their immigrant
peoples. There, the practicioners of the Old Faith and the workers of
Medicine can practice in peace, their freedoms afforded to them by the First
Amendment, with the Changing Breeds making sure that the leaders of men know
the needs of the Earth. These nature mysticks would be a powerful asset to
the US, enabling easy alliance with the southern nations and enabling the
practical application of the Monroe doctrine. Thus, in the United States, a
nation only wrent once by it's terrible Civil War (which, when over,
re-affirmed the american commitment to rights for all), the Society of
Dreams was born, otherwise known as the Dreamspeakers, in the last refuge of
those who heed the Spirit World and the will of Mother Earth. The native
and immigrant magickal societies would enable the US to match the mystickal
expertise of the Celestial Chorus and the Order of Hermes, found in Europe,
and the american branches of the Sons of Ether and other technomantic groups
would be enthusiastic and ambitious researchers of Ether science, with many
american notions of democracy based on interpretations of ethical calculus.
The other groups would be found as well, including the Ivory Tower, who are
members of the famed US Secret Service, and include as specialists american
witches and shamans, as well Wolf People from the Tribal States. America
would be a *very* dangerous place for old world vampires to travel.

About vampires -

Vampires, ironically, would be about as common (that is, not very) as they
are in the normal V:TM setting. The only major difference between the
settings is that the Sabbat would be much more subdued, since the Ivory
Tower and it's watchers would drop like a thunderous hammer upon any open
Cainite activity. The Kindred in this setting would be careful, elegant,
refined, and based heavily upon the model of Bram Stoker's Dracula, being
strongest in Europe. Being far more numerous than the Mages of the Ivory
Tower, the Ivory Tower and it's allies would be in a constant game of cat
and mouse, as Watchers work to divine Cainite webs of influence, working to
sever those webs so that the rot and infestation of Cainite influence does
not harm society too deeply. The Cainites, themselves, would find the
notion of the Kitab Al Acir appaling - ("Kine influencing the world with
their thoughts? Please!") but would not be able to doubt the power of the
Ivory Tower witch hunters or their weapons, as well as the divine fire and
holy miracles of the likes of Choristers. However, revelation of the
existence of Vampires would cause a world wide panic, and so the Ivory Tower
handles yet another thankless task.

Oh, I also see the Ivory Tower fighting with their super agents world wide
conspiracies and secret societies, like the aforementioned super-villain
societies and the like. More and more, the Ivory Tower seems to be morphing
into a League of Extraordinary Gentlemand the defenders of the world, which
I would very much like to play!

: They would. It's a matter of their attitude, I should think. Unlike
> : mainstream Etherites, the Artificers would probably attempt to transcend
> : their bodies, projecting themselves into the Ether-Net and turning their
> : bodies into mechanical Scientific constructs. Surprisingly, this doesn't
> : necessarily make them any less human -- although plenty of Artificers
> : would become amoral and resemble more our Technocratic ItX friends.

Anyone here see City of Lost Children? I imagine the Artificers becoming a
cult of cybernetic steampunk weirdoes, with the original, older Artificers
being absorbed into the Sons of Ether, Ivory Tower and other factions.

> Hm. I don't think the Artificers would care so much for
> projecting themselves into the Ether-Net like that. I think they
> would rather stick to their tools. The E'Net would be more the
> realm of the Difference Engineers, Etherical Cybernauts, Ivory
> Tower Information Brokers and Syndicate Cyberlaw Enforcers...

Cyberlaw enforcers? See my notes on the Ivory Tower above. It would be the
Towers role to seize and seal away dangerous technology, such as Etheric
bombs and such.

> : The Proggies would still be the same, except that their focus now turns
> : almost to protecting and preserving life. Almost any Scienties who takes
> : the Hippocratic Oath is eligible to become a Progenitor.

I still think they'd be called Cosians, or Hippocratics.

> Agreed. Although I think they'd have quite their share if
> not-so-nice experimentators among them, too.

Any Scientist can turn bad!

> : Stayka's character would probably be the kind of person to join this
> : universe's version of VE, really.

I see the VE as being the Society of Ethernauts, whole boldly go forth in
their Etherships to chart new realms and fight the menace of the Martian
invaders! The Ethernauts would serve as advisors to the space navies of
Europe, Asia and the US, under the World Defense treaty, signed at the
League of Nations.

> : And this brings up the issue about Etherites being good guys and bad
> : guys. As it is, I suspect the good or bad of what you do in this setting
> : might be less related to your mystical affiliation, and more with what
> : nation you belong to. For example, you might be a Dreamspeaker Shaman
> : (NOT Technoshaman, just to make a point) under the British Ministry of
> : Swords, but you're a Good Guy, while that Etherite Utopian might belong
> : to <insert favourite nation here> and would obviously be a troublemaking
> : Evil Bastard.

It can get a lot more subtle than that, but yes. I don't see Mage groups
and factions as organizations but more as traditions in the practice sense
and ideology.

More to come,

Stayka deyAvemta

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May 18, 2003, 8:18:27 AM5/18/03

From: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de>

Subject: Re: [Mage: LONG] An alternative electropunk setting

Newsgroups: alt.games.whitewolf
References: <9bfdf49c.03051...@posting.google.com> <70Mwa.9417$6L5.4...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <ba03r6$sid$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> <Xns937D43C631Apakk...@203.99.143.60> <F0Zwa.13267$6L5.6...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <ba3duv$meb$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> <Xns937E15C0B2C03pa...@203.99.143.60>

Sorry for the delay in answering ^_^ Yesterday I was very busy
with starting to do some real world work like painting a wall of
my apartment. Or rather, it was preparing the wall with a close
meshed grid (only 10% finished, yikes) to put on a 4.30m wide and
2.50m high truly cool anime painting ^_^ *g* To do it at least
somewhat Ether-style, I used a laser water-level - quite a neat
invention, if you ask me!

Well, and when I finally got here and had half the answer to this
posting put together, my ISP decided to kick me out, thus killing
my paintakingly formulated answer for good. *grumbles* I really
should not answer on the fly, but prepare them in good old emacs
and autosave every 1-2 minutes.

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:

:> And anyway, I think one should not forget that Paris has the

:> Great Hall of the Sons of Ether, not London... So I think there
:> should be quite some Etherites influenced by the French way of
:> life, too... Vive la revolution!
: I think the attitudes would be different, at any rate. England's
: Victorian Age would be seen as something quite ripe for collapse,
: especially if it lasted far longer than it did.

Well, I think the Victorian age would come to an end by force of
the discontent parts of society... I see a suffragette movent
forcing the 'male chauvinist pigs' to give women morepower, just
like in our timeline etc. And of course after the death of Queen
Victoria, the people in charge might try to shift things more to
their liking etc.

: I'm just curious, though. Stayka's right, of course, in saying that

: Etherite thought would be most concentrated in France. England would of
: course be a hotbed of intrigue and politics, with several groups, from
: the British Etherites (hmm. The Council of Avalon. Neat, no?) to the
: Order of the Golden Dawn, and any number of the Irish and Scots bringing
: in Verbana ideals.

Of course, England as the motor of the industrial revolution
would very much be a magnet for Etherites and Artificers. They
find a lot of work fields there.

: Germany... won't Germany be called something like Prussia, ruled by a

: Kaiser? To be honest, I'm quite in the dark about Western European
: History -- we never covered it when we were in secondary school.

Well, Germany was very much an amalgam of small states in middle
ages and thereafter. The fusion of those to a united Germany
took place somewhat later. One could keep Prussia and Bavaria
neatly apart (the two never liked each other much), and fuse
Bavaria with Austria and maybe Hungary and set up a monarchy
there. Prussia/Brandenburg would probably be together with
Poland and under the rule of some Emperor Wilhelm
don't-ask-me-the-how-manyeth. I guess the Saxons would very much
like to stay on their own, too, though ^_^ The regions around the
Saarland might belong to France (the were always pretty much
contested).

: And I keep suspecting that Russia would have a powerful Tsar, who would

: be forced to maintain the balance between the Mongol Shamans, the Rodina
: branch of Verbana, Etherite Science and Chorister Influence.

During the reign of the Tsars, Prussia and Russia were pretty
much buddy-buddy, with Russia importing a lot of Prussian
scholars.

Well, of course we also might have Bohemia, Denmark and the
countries in the vicinity *g* To show how chaotic the amount of
rulers was only during Victorian times, you might check here:
http://www.geocities.com/vrozn/ger19.html ^_^

: Italy... hmm. Well, the Roman Catholic Church is there, so there's more

: conflict between the Celestial Chorus and the Syndicate Financier, who
: find their Etherite Sciences hampered by populist labour movements
: incited by the Choristers.

Well, Italy in Medieval/Renaissance times also had quite some
history with "Germany" - anyone remember the "Holy Roman Empire"?
It depends on how early the Kitab Al Alacir printing would have
empowered more people to use Ether Science! and when stuff like
the "replicator tech" became available to at least people "who
matter", whether many countries would have developed like today
at all. After all, many wars were waged for resources and
influence, and when Ether Science was available throughout the
different countries, the question is would there have been so
many wars at all.

Maybe the Etherites could have forced even an early founding of
something like the European Union and the settlement of North
America would have taken place very differently - maybe by Ether
Airships and the like. And maybe they would have found a totally
mystic oriented continent where shamans and spirit-talkers rule
supreme and EtherTech just doesn't work properly, thus preventing
a colonization in the first place?

Now that might be an alternative world, too. The great victory
of EtherTech in the European region brought them to rely to much
on it and when they set out and entered the American shaman's
territory, their whole gimmicks would be vulgar... Think of
native Americans, Mayans and Aztecs forming a Mystick front...

: Makes me wonder, now, though. Would the Choristers accept other religions

: into their ranks? I presume the Reformation should happen, therefore
: their idea of One World, One God would be shattered by the Protestant
: movement.

Well, I think they would accept all monotheist religions. I'm
sure they'd have problems with polytheism, though.

: Hey. Hey, cool. This could be the Sphere's equivalent of Dune's Orange

: Catholic Bible, except with its underpinnings rooted in Math!

Wild thought!

: I could even see scholars from other religions trying, with the aid of

: Etherite thinking machines, to understand and intergrate their scriptures
: with the Etherite Ethical Calculus. It would be a fringe movement, to be
: sure for about several hundred years for so...

And then there'd be the ones trying to put down the Nine Billion
Names of God...

: Hmm. Not a bad idea. I'm sure some people wouldn't find it comfortable

: playing, at any rate, so this should be an Optional Rule.

Well, religion is a touchy subject for many, unfortunately.

: I'm picturing an Etherite workshop, with holy images of her religion.

: When asked, she'd probably reply:
: "All Science can show me is humanity and the Universe. True Science has
: neither claimed to replace or show me God. It is both my Science and my
: Faith that powers my inventions -- neither works without the other."

Well, even in the Guide to the Technocracy, they put a box
detailing that religious belief is maybe not activlely encouraged
by the Union, but still found acceptible. So the even more
liberal Etherites shouldn't have any problems with that either.

: Smaller resources, like previously stated, might actually be belief and

: Paradigm (generated by the Masses -- the Awakened should be more common,
: but not as commonas Sleepers and Advanced Scientists and Sorcerers are)
: and labour. We could just leave slavery hanging up in the air, or make it
: impermissible by Ethical Calculus, as a violation of a human's personal
: rights. Which could of course bring up the issues of what a Construct's
: personal rights are...

Well, thinking about the Etherites as being rooted at least as
much in French thought as in Victorian ones, there should be a
"Liberte', Fraternite', Egalite' well-spread, too. And isn't
Science! supposed to be for everyone alike?

: Ooh. A campaign that has a group of Scientiests, with their children,

: trapped in Funtasia, while the magical wards would *mysteriously fail*.
: It'd be just like Jurassic Park.

*g* I did think of quoting Jurrassic Park ^_^ But I thought it was
too obvious, LOL.

:> Well, even if infinite supply *could* be created, there would be

:> still the matter of distribution, of course.
:
: There's that. There's only so much you can carry, while being acceptable
: and safe, I should think. We might just require that a LOT of Ether-quint
: is needed to make Tass, so Tass might be the best way to ship magical
: energy (small amounts of quint can be translated to light using Forces,
: or sent via quantum entanglement, using Correspondence, but it gets to
: the point where it becomes impractical -- you start using more quint than
: you're sending). Unfortunately, there's only so much to go around before
: you start perturbing the fabric of Etherspace with your wake, thus
: screwing around passers-by and planets.

Well, I thought more of people like the Syndies hoarding
ressources to give them to "deserving" people, claiming that
there were of course difficulties to reach very remote areas
etc., because this might not fit into their plans...

: It is. And it does mean that in the US, there is no one dominant paradigm

: -- all paradigms work. Which would be great for a great many people, but
: a bitch for Americans when they visit other countries.

Thinking of the VE protocol beepers ^_^ "Attention, you are about
to violate static realitiy. Attention, you..."

: Don't know about the rest of you, but I prefer Stayka talking then not;

: both she and Chris do great input.

*blush* Thanks...

: More Talking!

As you wish :-)

Clear Ether!
Stayka

Tariq Kamal

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May 19, 2003, 3:54:20 PM5/19/03

Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote in message news:<ba7tmj$j5k$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>...

> From: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de>
> Subject: Re: [Mage: LONG] An alternative electropunk setting
> Newsgroups: alt.games.whitewolf
>

> Sorry for the delay in answering ^_^ Yesterday I was very busy
> with starting to do some real world work like painting a wall of
> my apartment. Or rather, it was preparing the wall with a close
> meshed grid (only 10% finished, yikes) to put on a 4.30m wide and
> 2.50m high truly cool anime painting ^_^ *g* To do it at least
> somewhat Ether-style, I used a laser water-level - quite a neat
> invention, if you ask me!
>
> Well, and when I finally got here and had half the answer to this
> posting put together, my ISP decided to kick me out, thus killing
> my paintakingly formulated answer for good. *grumbles* I really
> should not answer on the fly, but prepare them in good old emacs
> and autosave every 1-2 minutes.

Damn. Laser water-level, anime frescoes (well, not really), answering
posts in emacs... hellfire and damnation, you're beginning to sound
like a Mythical Geek Goddess.

I'd be surprised if some lucky male hasn't snapped you up. Um, er,
assuming you were into that sort of thing.

<snip>

> : Germany... won't Germany be called something like Prussia, ruled by a
> : Kaiser? To be honest, I'm quite in the dark about Western European
> : History -- we never covered it when we were in secondary school.
>
> Well, Germany was very much an amalgam of small states in middle
> ages and thereafter. The fusion of those to a united Germany
> took place somewhat later. One could keep Prussia and Bavaria
> neatly apart (the two never liked each other much), and fuse
> Bavaria with Austria and maybe Hungary and set up a monarchy
> there. Prussia/Brandenburg would probably be together with
> Poland and under the rule of some Emperor Wilhelm
> don't-ask-me-the-how-manyeth. I guess the Saxons would very much
> like to stay on their own, too, though ^_^ The regions around the
> Saarland might belong to France (the were always pretty much
> contested).
>
> : And I keep suspecting that Russia would have a powerful Tsar, who would
> : be forced to maintain the balance between the Mongol Shamans, the Rodina
> : branch of Verbana, Etherite Science and Chorister Influence.
>
> During the reign of the Tsars, Prussia and Russia were pretty
> much buddy-buddy, with Russia importing a lot of Prussian
> scholars.
>
> Well, of course we also might have Bohemia, Denmark and the
> countries in the vicinity *g* To show how chaotic the amount of
> rulers was only during Victorian times, you might check here:
> http://www.geocities.com/vrozn/ger19.html ^_^

Hmm. Don't know much about the mood and theme of such an area, anyway.
Since we're essentially throwing out a lot of history after 1500,
knowing which governments are there and which aren't isn't as
important as the mood, theme and flavour of each country is in our
setting.

Would anyone know?

> Now that might be an alternative world, too. The great victory
> of EtherTech in the European region brought them to rely to much
> on it and when they set out and entered the American shaman's
> territory, their whole gimmicks would be vulgar... Think of
> native Americans, Mayans and Aztecs forming a Mystick front...

Alan Moore's 'Tom Strong' has an Aztec Empire which spanned dimensions
and was lead by the Great God Quetzalcoatl-9, an AI that doubled as
spritual focus and system administrator...

Tom Strong desribed that empire as a 'grandiose, inflated fascism',
however. Which it was, to be honest. It was a technological Aztec
Empire, with not a lot of mysticism evident.

Now, Tom Strong. That's an Etherite Adventurer for you. Blue triangle,
blue triangle. :)

> : Makes me wonder, now, though. Would the Choristers accept other religions
> : into their ranks? I presume the Reformation should happen, therefore
> : their idea of One World, One God would be shattered by the Protestant
> : movement.
>
> Well, I think they would accept all monotheist religions. I'm
> sure they'd have problems with polytheism, though.

Not necessarily. Hinduism might get in fine. Its ideas about all the
gods and goddesses being relfections of the Aum would make it
acceptable for many Choristers.

<snip>

> : Smaller resources, like previously stated, might actually be belief and
> : Paradigm (generated by the Masses -- the Awakened should be more common,
> : but not as commonas Sleepers and Advanced Scientists and Sorcerers are)
> : and labour. We could just leave slavery hanging up in the air, or make it
> : impermissible by Ethical Calculus, as a violation of a human's personal
> : rights. Which could of course bring up the issues of what a Construct's
> : personal rights are...
>
> Well, thinking about the Etherites as being rooted at least as
> much in French thought as in Victorian ones, there should be a
> "Liberte', Fraternite', Egalite' well-spread, too. And isn't
> Science! supposed to be for everyone alike?

(badly done Eurotrash accent)

Well, you know. Those bastard Englishmen and their straight-laced
stupidity. Hypocrites, all of them.

> : Ooh. A campaign that has a group of Scientiests, with their children,
> : trapped in Funtasia, while the magical wards would *mysteriously fail*.
> : It'd be just like Jurassic Park.
>
> *g* I did think of quoting Jurrassic Park ^_^ But I thought it was
> too obvious, LOL.

Nothing wrong with obvious :)

> :> Well, even if infinite supply *could* be created, there would be
> :> still the matter of distribution, of course.
> :
> : There's that. There's only so much you can carry, while being acceptable
> : and safe, I should think. We might just require that a LOT of Ether-quint
> : is needed to make Tass, so Tass might be the best way to ship magical
> : energy (small amounts of quint can be translated to light using Forces,
> : or sent via quantum entanglement, using Correspondence, but it gets to
> : the point where it becomes impractical -- you start using more quint than
> : you're sending). Unfortunately, there's only so much to go around before
> : you start perturbing the fabric of Etherspace with your wake, thus
> : screwing around passers-by and planets.
>
> Well, I thought more of people like the Syndies hoarding
> ressources to give them to "deserving" people, claiming that
> there were of course difficulties to reach very remote areas
> etc., because this might not fit into their plans...

They'd be opposed from at least two sides, I should think :) Of
course, we could have the Sphere's equivalent of the SPD...

<snip>

> : Don't know about the rest of you, but I prefer Stayka talking then not;
> : both she and Chris do great input.
>
> *blush* Thanks...

You're welcome :)

> : More Talking!
>
> As you wish :-)
>
> Clear Ether!
> Stayka

Tariq Kamal

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 19, 2003, 4:35:27 PM5/19/03

Tariq Kamal <pak_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Stayka deyAvemta <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote in message news:<ba7tmj$j5k$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>...
: Damn. Laser water-level, anime frescoes (well, not really), answering

: posts in emacs... hellfire and damnation, you're beginning to sound
: like a Mythical Geek Goddess.

*g* Maybe I should add that as of yesterday I have three different
Linux distribs on three computers ^_^ (Debian for the Router,
SuSE on my old working machine, and a fellow RPGamer introduced
me to Gentoo which now runs on my new machine. Waiii, Gentoo looks
truly majorly cool!)

: I'd be surprised if some lucky male hasn't snapped you up. Um, er,

: assuming you were into that sort of thing.

*g* I'm not really into girls, so don't worry ^_^

<Germany and surrounding areas in the Sphere timeline>
: Hmm. Don't know much about the mood and theme of such an area, anyway.

: Since we're essentially throwing out a lot of history after 1500,
: knowing which governments are there and which aren't isn't as
: important as the mood, theme and flavour of each country is in our
: setting.
: Would anyone know?

Well, one could of course go for the Prussian stereotypes -
thoroughness, authoritative leadership, organized systems from
education to military and work force. Probably interspersed with
highly valued intellectualism ('thinkers and poets'...)

So this would definitely strengthen organized Paradigms like
everything rational/technological, or probably hermetic.

: Now, Tom Strong. That's an Etherite Adventurer for you. Blue triangle,
: blue triangle. :)

Well, there were a lot of cool pulp style adventurers who go
nicely with the Etherite Paradigm... Doc Savage comes to mind,
too.

:> Well, I think they would accept all monotheist religions. I'm

:> sure they'd have problems with polytheism, though.
: Not necessarily. Hinduism might get in fine. Its ideas about all the
: gods and goddesses being relfections of the Aum would make it
: acceptable for many Choristers.

Hm. Probably. So everything that has some underlying 'Cosmic
Conscience', too.

:> Well, thinking about the Etherites as being rooted at least as

:> much in French thought as in Victorian ones, there should be a
:> "Liberte', Fraternite', Egalite' well-spread, too. And isn't
:> Science! supposed to be for everyone alike?
: (badly done Eurotrash accent)
: Well, you know. Those bastard Englishmen and their straight-laced
: stupidity. Hypocrites, all of them.

*g* Indeed!

:> Well, I thought more of people like the Syndies hoarding

:> ressources to give them to "deserving" people, claiming that
:> there were of course difficulties to reach very remote areas
:> etc., because this might not fit into their plans...
: They'd be opposed from at least two sides, I should think :) Of
: course, we could have the Sphere's equivalent of the SPD...

Well, the Etherite Paradigm winning out doesn't say that there
wouldn't be truly evil entities trying to set foot on Earth
(again). So I think something like Infernalist-infested parts of
the Trads/conventions will certain exist even in the Sphere WoD.

Stayka deyAvemta

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May 19, 2003, 4:45:05 PM5/19/03

Agent Groove <x...@zyx.net> wrote:
: "Stayka deyAvemta" <sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:
: I want to see the Iron Kaiser with fleets of iron-clad spaceships, seizing

: the riches of the Ether, opposing him captain nemo-esque fellows in crosses
: between submarines and flash gordon rocketships. There's no reason that
: evil mongo-style space empires can't be Out There. In fact, I know of few
: perfect antagonist for such a setting -

*g* Just the stuff I like to make my storylines of ^_^

Of course I'll add the settles planets of the Solar System just
like in the Golden Age pulp SF, too. And truly evil alien Empires
should not be omitted either :-)

Add some artifacts from ancient alien civilizations that carry
tremendous power, contain arcane knowledges of Science! or other
valuable things.

: Space Emperor Drangar, a master of Ether Science himself, and his legions!

Yay! Now this would be a glorious battle! Shimmering Etherships
with blazing rayguns that fill the Ether with crisscrossing blasts
of multicoloured energy...

: The Martians, from War of the Worlds! Tripods, BEM's, etc

*g* I'm in ^_^

: On Mars itself, kingdoms with both bizarre (maybe hostile, maybe friendly)

: aliens, near humans with different colored skin and ancient, archaic
: cultures (Barsoom), and so on. Drangar and his Red Desert Empire may well
: be opposed by the ancient kingdoms of the canals, such as the City States of
: Bashra and Kasheem. Strange Ether fluxes can carry people from Earth to
: here, where they adventure!

Yeah. Golden Age all over... Red-skinned Martians, grey Neptunians,
blue Saturnians, green Jovians... All possibly descendant from a
progenitor race from somewhere out there... Myriads of mysteries
to solve, treaties to be fixed etc...

: There are also ideologies, and control over who commands such resources.

Absolutely! Who owns the asteroids and who holds the most interesting
pieces of land on the moons and planets... Who managed to secure the
most produuctive Nodes...

:> It would still be a fight for Paradigm, at least for the ones

:> who initially lost out. I can see them trying to sneak back and
:> inserting their deviant thoughts into the Masses again.
: Stop that Technocracy talk!

Oops, caught again ^_^

: The Kitab Al Acir teaches us that belief and will can create any

: reality, and as we know, the best reality is created by the sensible,
: logical, yet artistic and imaginative ways of study of the Ether and
: true Science!

Agreed :-)

: I don't think the battle will be over which Paradigm will be in charge -

: Science! Has won. It will be more of a battle to determine whether or not
: Paradigms can peacefully co-exist with each other, and how Mankind will use
: the opportunities afforded by space exploration and modernism, and how they
: will change the world and humanity.

Well, I think the Non-Science!-Paradigm keepers will gradually be
forced to adapt or to move out...

:> : We'd probably see Dreamspeaker communities bemoaning the fact that not

:> : one of their kids are interested in the Old Ways any more...
:> : Which might give reason for a lot of people to leave.
:> Leave or try to fight back. If not openly, then definitely covertly.
:> Wherever there is a big overpowering leadership, there will be elements
:> fighting that.
: Or, go to America, where the Old Ways of Medicine work hand in hand with
: Science, and where immigrants respect the lands and rights of natives...
: most of the time. Of course, this may be hard for aboriginals from outside
: the americas.

Well, Austrialia might stay a bastion on aboriginal Magick, too.
The walkers of the Dreamtime are certainy not exactly
practitioners I see as embracing the Paradigm of Science!

: The Cainites, themselves, would find the

: notion of the Kitab Al Acir appaling - ("Kine influencing the world with
: their thoughts? Please!") but would not be able to doubt the power of the
: Ivory Tower witch hunters or their weapons, as well as the divine fire and
: holy miracles of the likes of Choristers. However, revelation of the
: existence of Vampires would cause a world wide panic, and so the Ivory Tower
: handles yet another thankless task.

Well, don't forget the sunray guns. Or maybe adding sunlight
effects to the streetlamps ^_^ Looks perfectly normal to
Sleepers, but would annoy the hell out of the vamps :-)

: Oh, I also see the Ivory Tower fighting with their super agents world wide

: conspiracies and secret societies, like the aforementioned super-villain
: societies and the like. More and more, the Ivory Tower seems to be morphing
: into a League of Extraordinary Gentlemand the defenders of the world, which
: I would very much like to play!

*g* Yup, that's really fun :-)

:> Hm. I don't think the Artificers would care so much for

:> projecting themselves into the Ether-Net like that. I think they
:> would rather stick to their tools. The E'Net would be more the
:> realm of the Difference Engineers, Etherical Cybernauts, Ivory
:> Tower Information Brokers and Syndicate Cyberlaw Enforcers...
: Cyberlaw enforcers? See my notes on the Ivory Tower above. It would be the
: Towers role to seize and seal away dangerous technology, such as Etheric
: bombs and such.

Cyberlaw as in copyright issues and possible marketing chances
in the E'net. I think that's more Syndie than Ivory Tower area.

: I see the VE as being the Society of Ethernauts, whole boldly go forth in

: their Etherships to chart new realms and fight the menace of the Martian
: invaders! The Ethernauts would serve as advisors to the space navies of
: Europe, Asia and the US, under the World Defense treaty, signed at the
: League of Nations.

Yes, I think this sounds very logical. :-))

Clear Ether!

Asmodai

unread,

May 20, 2003, 4:05:06 AM5/20/03

> : Damn. Laser water-level, anime frescoes (well, not really), answering
> : posts in emacs... hellfire and damnation, you're beginning to sound
> : like a Mythical Geek Goddess.
>
> *g* Maybe I should add that as of yesterday I have three different
> Linux distribs on three computers ^_^ (Debian for the Router,
> SuSE on my old working machine, and a fellow RPGamer introduced
> me to Gentoo which now runs on my new machine. Waiii, Gentoo looks
> truly majorly cool!)

I am almost sure there is a connection to the Elder gods here, that we must
be missing... :)

> : Now, Tom Strong. That's an Etherite Adventurer for you. Blue triangle,
> : blue triangle. :)

> Well, there were a lot of cool pulp style adventurers who go
> nicely with the Etherite Paradigm... Doc Savage comes to mind,
> too.

PLANETARY! PLANETARY! Doc Brass & the children of the 20th century

Now simply to add something to the thread... i'd leae the history more or
less intact... but just go and see what chnges would high technology
wreak... probably WW1 earlier then 1914... The same figures in history woudl
appear an they would try and tke their places.. .who knows what could
happen... maybe the Americas could have stayed under Britain...

It is a bit too much work to make a whole new history... rather adapt our
own to extra technology...

Stayka deyAvemta

unread,

May 20, 2003, 8:21:03 AM5/20/03

Asmodai <lo...@post.hr> wrote:
: I am almost sure there is a connection to the Elder gods here,

: that we must be missing... :)

Ia! Ia! Linux ftagn! Ia! Ia!

Oops ^_^

: Now simply to add something to the thread... i'd leae the history more or

: less intact... but just go and see what chnges would high technology
: wreak... probably WW1 earlier then 1914... The same figures in history woudl
: appear an they would try and tke their places.. .who knows what could
: happen... maybe the Americas could have stayed under Britain...
:
: It is a bit too much work to make a whole new history... rather adapt our
: own to extra technology...

The big problem is that it is not just "some extra technology".
The Kitab al Alacir contains a full Paradigm, pholosophy and
mind set that would change the course of the world as we know it
totally. The access to Science! lets whole societies topple over
as a lot of reasons for fight wouldn't be present as they were
in our timeline, and there would be fully new things to contest.

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 20, 2003, 9:00:36 AM5/20/03

In news:bad6jf$t6n$1...@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de, Stayka deyAvemta
<sta...@saint-seiya.de> wrote:

> Asmodai <lo...@post.hr> wrote:
>: I am almost sure there is a connection to the Elder gods here,
>: that we must be missing... :)
>
> Ia! Ia! Linux ftagn! Ia! Ia!
>
> Oops ^_^

Rofl. Go back to Innsmouth, young lady. The city of Yub-Nabisc calls you
:)

>: Now simply to add something to the thread... i'd leae the history
>: more or less intact... but just go and see what chnges would high
>: technology wreak... probably WW1 earlier then 1914... The same
>: figures in history woudl appear an they would try and tke their
>: places.. .who knows what could happen... maybe the Americas could
>: have stayed under Britain...
>:
>: It is a bit too much work to make a whole new history... rather adapt
>: our own to extra technology...
>
> The big problem is that it is not just "some extra technology".
> The Kitab al Alacir contains a full Paradigm, pholosophy and
> mind set that would change the course of the world as we know it
> totally. The access to Science! lets whole societies topple over
> as a lot of reasons for fight wouldn't be present as they were
> in our timeline, and there would be fully new things to contest.

I've been thinking about the Wraithly side of things. I don't know much
about the Maelstrom, but what I know implies that it takes a major
disaster in the Skinlands to actually cause it. If I'm not mistaken, the
fourth and fifth Maelstrom was caused by the two World Wars, and the
Sixth by the Reckoning.

No, I'm not saying 'bring back the Avatar Storm!' (though actually having
alien beings able to manifest a form of it would rock). Calm down, calm
down. What I am saying is that the gaming timeline won't be much of a
gaming timeline without a major disaster or two in it.

Now, the two World Wars presented an excellent opportunity to introduce
new villains and new ideas, while shaking up faith in secular ideologies.
I suspect if we don't have the equivalents in the Sphere timeline, we'd
probably see the Scientists a LITTLE too complacent.

So, here's my suggestion.

Instead of the two World Wars, have an interstellar war. A couple. Make
them big and nasty. Have it so that young men and women throw their lives
into it for their idealogies. There's nothing in the Kitab al-Alacir that
disallows this, IMO.

I don't know what could cause it: an invasion from the Outer Dark would
be impressive, but let's save that for the second Inter-System War ("Dear
God! Is that... is that a WORLDCRAFT?" "It's firing some kind of beam,
sir! The Paradox Levels are spiking!").

The first could just be a major fight between the forces on Earth and off
it, ending with the formation of the League of Nations, or something like
it.

It's an opportunity for great heroim and some measure of horror for
people within that era. It'd at least make some of the culture and
history a LITTLE familliar, at any rate, while still being completely
new.

Besides, do you actually wanna dream up a whole new timeline that isn't
based on the old one? I don't -- that's much too much hard work :)

Agent Groove

unread,

May 21, 2003, 12:26:46 AM5/21/03

> So, here's my suggestion.
>
> Instead of the two World Wars, have an interstellar war. A couple. Make
> them big and nasty. Have it so that young men and women throw their lives
> into it for their idealogies. There's nothing in the Kitab al-Alacir that
> disallows this, IMO.
>
> I don't know what could cause it: an invasion from the Outer Dark would
> be impressive, but let's save that for the second Inter-System War ("Dear
> God! Is that... is that a WORLDCRAFT?" "It's firing some kind of beam,
> sir! The Paradox Levels are spiking!").

MARTIANS, MARTIANS, MARTIANS!

Alien invaders that can possess bodies. Hidden alien conspiracies. Huge
tripod warmachines that fire withering heat beams! Only Science! Has any
chance of stopping these hideous invaders!

> The first could just be a major fight between the forces on Earth and off
> it, ending with the formation of the League of Nations, or something like
> it.

Giant Robo. The International Police! Who says that Big Fire is the only
threat!

Sakura Taisen and like Anime deal heavily with alien invasions in
steam/electropunk settings.

Tariq Kamal

unread,

May 21, 2003, 11:45:28 AM5/21/03

In news:aeDya.17203$OB5.6...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net, "Agent Groove"
<x...@zyx.net> wrote:

>> So, here's my suggestion.
>>
>> Instead of the two World Wars, have an interstellar war. A couple.
>> Make them big and nasty. Have it so that young men and women throw
>> their lives into it for their idealogies. There's nothing in the
>> Kitab al-Alacir that disallows this, IMO.
>>
>> I don't know what could cause it: an invasion from the Outer Dark
>> would be impressive, but let's save that for the second Inter-System
>> War ("Dear God! Is that... is that a WORLDCRAFT?" "It's firing some
>> kind of beam, sir! The Paradox Levels are spiking!").
>

It is 1934.

> MARTIANS, MARTIANS, MARTIANS!
>
> Alien invaders that can possess bodies. Hidden alien conspiracies.
> Huge tripod warmachines that fire withering heat beams! Only Science!
> Has any chance of stopping these hideous invaders!

Yes :) For an extra twist, these aliens ARE from Mars, but none of the
Martians have actually seen any indication of these aliens. It's like...
they were the manifestation of /something/...

And that worldcraft bit I wanna put out, as a final climax to the War.
It'd be a devastating, withering attack, that brings out even the Arch-
Scientists of the Sphere!

And /that/ triggers the Fifth Maelstrom.

>> The first could just be a major fight between the forces on Earth and
>> off it, ending with the formation of the League of Nations, or
>> something like it.
>
> Giant Robo. The International Police! Who says that Big Fire is the
> only threat!
>
> Sakura Taisen and like Anime deal heavily with alien invasions in
> steam/electropunk settings.

It is 1892.

The Iron Kaiser, the secret heir to Prussia, finally makes a comeback bid
to take over the world! It begins with thirteen large quantum singularity
explosions in the orbits around Earth, Venus and Mars, which cause an
amazingly devastating storm both in Etherspace and in the dark realm
known as The Shadowlands! Every medium and shaman within the Sphere
suffers its consequences, as ships are struck down by the Titanic Forces
unleashed!

By the time the Storms die down, the Iron Kaiser has finally taken
control of the ruling seats of America, London and France! Now, the
Resistance is at hand! Take back the lands that were stolen from us, and
regain our rightful places! For Liberty, Equality and Fraternity!

Ooh. I'm so tingly.

>
> CB

Tariq Kamal

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