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PhilHibbs

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Mar 2, 2006, 8:35:24 AM3/2/06
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I've got an 18 hunter, and I'm finding it difficult. Somethings are
ridiculously easy, such as soloing, sending in a pet and shootnig from
a distance. There are a couple of tricky spots that I'd like advice on.

Pet abilities - growl, claw, etc. How do these work? The icon has
little golden spikes circling round it - what does this mean? Does it
mean the ability is on, off, or on automatic? If I click it, little
triangles appear in the corners and the animation stops. I don't
understand. (my game manual is elsewhere, I work away from home and
didn't bring it with me this week)

Mob radar - sometimes (mostly in an instance) I am giving
disinformation to the party. I see a dot round a corner on the radar,
tell them about it, and there's nothing there. I suspect that the
creature is above or below, but I would have thought that that would
grey out the dot like it does if it's in a cave and you aren't. How do
I avoid looking like an idiot and telling the party about something
that isn't there?

Phil Hibbs.

steve.kaye

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Mar 2, 2006, 8:45:50 AM3/2/06
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PhilHibbs wrote:
> I've got an 18 hunter, and I'm finding it difficult. Somethings are
> ridiculously easy, such as soloing, sending in a pet and shootnig from
> a distance. There are a couple of tricky spots that I'd like advice on.
>
> Pet abilities - growl, claw, etc. How do these work? The icon has
> little golden spikes circling round it - what does this mean? Does it
> mean the ability is on, off, or on automatic? If I click it, little
> triangles appear in the corners and the animation stops. I don't
> understand. (my game manual is elsewhere, I work away from home and
> didn't bring it with me this week)

If the golden spikes are on then your pet will automatically activate
that ability when it seeas fit. For growl and claw I think that it
pretty much does it as soon as cooldown and focus allow. If the golden
spikes are not there then it will never be used unless you click the
button. You right click the button to toggle the ability auto-fire.

> Mob radar - sometimes (mostly in an instance) I am giving
> disinformation to the party. I see a dot round a corner on the radar,
> tell them about it, and there's nothing there. I suspect that the
> creature is above or below, but I would have thought that that would
> grey out the dot like it does if it's in a cave and you aren't. How do
> I avoid looking like an idiot and telling the party about something
> that isn't there?

Say "I think that there is a mob around the corner" instead of "There
is a mob around the corner"?

steve.kaye

PhilHibbs

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Mar 2, 2006, 9:01:38 AM3/2/06
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Thanks, I thought that was the case.

>Say "I think that there is a mob around the corner" instead of
>"There is a mob around the corner"?

That's told me! But seriously, no-one types in complete sentences when
in an instance, especially when you have an over-eager warrior in the
group. Which is the same as saying, "if you have a warrior in the
group". My main (shaman) is perpetually running out of mana, and
sitting drinking while the warrior goes and gets himself into trouble.

Hm, that's just made me realise - I've never seen a female warrior. Are
they generally any less stupid?

Phil Hibbs.
http://hoofu.notlong.com/ <- my shaman

BombayMix

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Mar 2, 2006, 9:10:52 AM3/2/06
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>> Pet abilities - growl, claw, etc. How do these work? The icon has
>> little golden spikes circling round it - what does this mean? Does it
>> mean the ability is on, off, or on automatic? If I click it, little
>> triangles appear in the corners and the animation stops. I don't
>> understand. (my game manual is elsewhere, I work away from home and
>> didn't bring it with me this week)
>If the golden spikes are on then your pet will automatically activate
>that ability when it seeas fit. For growl and claw I think that it
>pretty much does it as soon as cooldown and focus allow. If the golden
>spikes are not there then it will never be used unless you click the
>button. You right click the button to toggle the ability auto-fire.

I use a mod called SmartPet which "optimise" the pets abilities, ie
cast growl every 5 seconds. Stops the pet running of too far or
breaking a debuff.

You are also going to have switch on all the actions bars or use a mod
like flex bar. Hunters are a large amount of skill and you are going to
need the extra bars for easy access to them all.

oceanclub

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Mar 2, 2006, 9:20:02 AM3/2/06
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>I use a mod called SmartPet which "optimise" the pets abilities, ie
>cast growl every 5 seconds.

That really is a must-have, just for the auto-Growl feature alone
(your pet will always retain enough focus to auto-cast Growl
every five seconds).

P.

Nabuu

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Mar 2, 2006, 9:36:13 AM3/2/06
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In article <1141308097.9...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"PhilHibbs" <sna...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hm, that's just made me realise - I've never seen a female warrior. Are
> they generally any less stupid?

No, just for different reasons.

<G>

--
Nabuu, Tauren druid on Dethecus.
Also (rarely):
Chum, Gnome warlock, Bronzebeard
Tost, Dwarven rogue, Bronzebeard
Meadow, Night elf priest, Bronzebeard
Harmany, Undead mage, Dethecus
<http://www.ManyFriends.com/WoW/PhotoAlbum/>
Aka "Misc" -- If you don't remove your pants, I won't get your email.

Catriona R

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Mar 2, 2006, 11:19:00 AM3/2/06
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Hmm, that sounds useful! I just turned auto-Claw off on my hunter and just
manually Claw when I'm not hitting other buttons, but I'll look into that
addon and see if it helps me :-)
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 30)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 22)

Paul Vader

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Mar 2, 2006, 11:20:55 AM3/2/06
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"PhilHibbs" <sna...@gmail.com> writes:
>Hm, that's just made me realise - I've never seen a female warrior. Are
>they generally any less stupid?

I've seen several, even played with one yesterday. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.

Nate Engle

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Mar 2, 2006, 11:50:48 AM3/2/06
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PhilHibbs wrote:
> I've got an 18 hunter, and I'm finding it difficult.
[...]

> How do
> I avoid looking like an idiot and telling the party about something
> that isn't there?

Roll a mage. You may not be an idiot, but there are a LOT
of idiots out there playing hunters and you will inevitably
get painted with their seedy reputation no matter what you
do. You're a hunter, you will be ASSUMED to be an idiot.

Warriors get blamed a lot for not holding aggro, and priests
get blamed for not healing enough (usually in both cases by
idiots who deliberately took aggro away from the warrior and
made it impossible for the priest to save them), but for
some reason mages seem to dodge a lot of the petty finger-
pointing.

Vere

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Mar 2, 2006, 2:19:21 PM3/2/06
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Nate Engle wrote:
> Roll a mage. You may not be an idiot, but there are a LOT
> of idiots out there playing hunters and you will inevitably
> get painted with their seedy reputation no matter what you
> do. You're a hunter, you will be ASSUMED to be an idiot.

Is this really true?

I've said this before, but hunters are really a solo levelling 'easy
mode'. This may contribute to this reputation two-fold to the
appearance of stupidity:
1) There is one technique for normal solo fights, and then kiting/FD
for trouble/tougher mops. Since one can level fairly easily using this
very simple set of steps for every fight, then just feign death or run
if it fails, there is no reason to learn to do anything else.
I realized that this is very different from trying to play a ranged
class in previous MMORPGs (esp being an Albion Scout in DAOC, the
hardest solo class with the least group utility, but also the best pvp
sniper ability). This is why I consistently train against monsters in
melee styles and testing what works and feel that hunter melee
abilities, while limited, are overlooked. Sure, we aren't going to win
a 1v1 in unmonitored melee, but a few styles makes things doable
against a monster now and then.

2) Groups don't NEED hunters. Lots of other classes can add DPS, and
we dont offer much beyond pet crowd control(an underutilized skill) and
31 marksmanship buff.

Indoor areas are really not something I enjoy to start with, and then
couple poorly played toons by people who lack exp from other MMOs, they
are mostly unfun for me, except for loot. So I have only been in a
group a very small percentage of my time. I kind of play the way I
have played pet casters in the past, combined with my experience as a
"protect the clothies and healers" role as an archer. It seems to work
very well, except I am also used to being the puller and usually no one
wants to hear that. Anyway, the fact is that if this was MY first
MMORPG, I would be lost when I was grouped. This could catch 22 could
be hurting hunter's reps.

macea...@astound.net

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Mar 2, 2006, 3:37:46 PM3/2/06
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Vere wrote:
> Nate Engle wrote:
> > Roll a mage. You may not be an idiot, but there are a LOT
> > of idiots out there playing hunters and you will inevitably
> > get painted with their seedy reputation no matter what you
> > do. You're a hunter, you will be ASSUMED to be an idiot.
>
> Is this really true?

I've never found it so. That's after playing steadily from May,
2004 in beta and after release.

> I've said this before, but hunters are really a solo levelling 'easy
> mode'. This may contribute to this reputation two-fold to the
> appearance of stupidity:

That's a possibility.

> 1) There is one technique for normal solo fights, and then kiting/FD
> for trouble/tougher mops. Since one can level fairly easily using this
> very simple set of steps for every fight, then just feign death or run
> if it fails, there is no reason to learn to do anything else.
> I realized that this is very different from trying to play a ranged
> class in previous MMORPGs (esp being an Albion Scout in DAOC, the
> hardest solo class with the least group utility, but also the best pvp
> sniper ability). This is why I consistently train against monsters in
> melee styles and testing what works and feel that hunter melee
> abilities, while limited, are overlooked. Sure, we aren't going to win
> a 1v1 in unmonitored melee, but a few styles makes things doable
> against a monster now and then.
>
> 2) Groups don't NEED hunters. Lots of other classes can add DPS, and
> we dont offer much beyond pet crowd control(an underutilized skill) and
> 31 marksmanship buff.

IMHO, smart hunters are the best protection healers can get. Hold the
pet and use it to intercept critters coming for the healers. And, of
course,
a good hunter can put out an awful lot of dps.

> Indoor areas are really not something I enjoy to start with, and then
> couple poorly played toons by people who lack exp from other MMOs, they
> are mostly unfun for me, except for loot. So I have only been in a
> group a very small percentage of my time. I kind of play the way I
> have played pet casters in the past, combined with my experience as a
> "protect the clothies and healers" role as an archer. It seems to work
> very well, except I am also used to being the puller and usually no one
> wants to hear that. Anyway, the fact is that if this was MY first
> MMORPG, I would be lost when I was grouped. This could catch 22 could
> be hurting hunter's reps.

Interesting. The groups I play with understand quite well the uses of
hunters as pullers.

Vere

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Mar 2, 2006, 3:52:28 PM3/2/06
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"Interesting. The groups I play with understand quite well the uses of
hunters as pullers."

At least in the levelling instances, everyone I meet seems very
rushrush. I have a procedure after before pulling: "ready?" and then
i wait for a response, followed by "inc". most groups just ignore this
and end up having someone else pull b/c i am "too slow". then again,
this game doesn't have too much of a death penalty (remember losing
whole LEVELS to getting killed or losing your sword of awesome and
having to earn it back and then after getting it back having become a
nerf bat?) and perhaps that doesn't teach people at an early level that
getting killed in game has downsides.

Nate Engle

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Mar 2, 2006, 5:15:12 PM3/2/06
to
Vere wrote:
> Nate Engle wrote:
>>Roll a mage. You may not be an idiot, but there are a LOT
>>of idiots out there playing hunters and you will inevitably
>>get painted with their seedy reputation no matter what you
>>do. You're a hunter, you will be ASSUMED to be an idiot.

> Is this really true?

Yes. In fact I'm a little nervous just sitting here telling
you this. Like maybe I should type slowly or something. But
we both know you're smarter than the average bear. But all
those OTHER hunters? Hooooo boy...

> I've said this before, but hunters are really a solo levelling 'easy
> mode'. This may contribute to this reputation two-fold to the
> appearance of stupidity:

Correct. There is one primary overriding factor that contributes
to the perception. Hunters solo very well - so well in fact
that some of them are utterly clueless about how to behave when
they get into a group setting.

They might think that their role is to pull, feign death, and
dump aggro on the healer standing next to them. They might think
that their role is to out-DPS everybody else, thus stealing aggro
from the main tank, after which they then feign death and dump
aggro on the healer standing next to them. They use mana so
they roll on all caster items, and they use swords so they roll
on all melee weapons, never mind that their primary role in the
game is ranged DPS and any missile weapons and +agi mail items
that drop are going to be automatically gifted to the hunters.

I know some hunters who are great, smart, perceptive players.
And I know some others on whose qualities I will not comment
at this time.

> 2) Groups don't NEED hunters. Lots of other classes can add DPS, and
> we dont offer much beyond pet crowd control(an underutilized skill) and
> 31 marksmanship buff.

The irony of it is that in many cases groups may not need
hunters, but there are some cases later in the game when
hunters are going to be the key to a winning strategy. I'm
talking about mobs like Teremus in the blasted lands who
life-steal hit points away from anyone standing close to
them, so lots of ranged DPS (with no pets attacking mind
you) is the easiest way to take them down.

> Indoor areas are really not something I enjoy to start with, and then
> couple poorly played toons by people who lack exp from other MMOs, they
> are mostly unfun for me, except for loot. So I have only been in a
> group a very small percentage of my time. I kind of play the way I
> have played pet casters in the past, combined with my experience as a
> "protect the clothies and healers" role as an archer. It seems to work
> very well, except I am also used to being the puller and usually no one
> wants to hear that.

There's a very good reason why the warrior needs to pull.
Warriors need a few seconds to grab aggro and then build it
up, and that gets thrown out of kilter if they're having to
battle against your DPS at the same time they're battling
the bad guys.

> Anyway, the fact is that if this was MY first
> MMORPG, I would be lost when I was grouped. This could catch 22 could
> be hurting hunter's reps.

That's about the size of it. Hunters as a class are great,
but the strength at soloing leaves many of them unfamiliar
with groups, and it's the behavior in groups on which other
classes are going to base their opinions (because they have
no idea what you do when you're on your own).

macea...@astound.net

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Mar 2, 2006, 5:37:38 PM3/2/06
to

I'm probably a bit spoiled since most of the instances I have done have
been with my guild members at least in charge and we are fairly careful
people. Went through UBRS last night and there was some side talk
about one of our members who was into the rush-rush style. Got us
all killed at least once and then blamed the healers on not doing their
job after the player pulled a whole second room onto us in the middle
of a fight with a different group.

Vere

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Mar 3, 2006, 8:37:58 AM3/3/06
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"There's a very good reason why the warrior needs to pull.
Warriors need a few seconds to grab aggro and then build it
up, and that gets thrown out of kilter if they're having to
battle against your DPS at the same time they're battling
the bad guys. "

There is one problem with that. This game is not really oriented
around player character debuffs, and the hunter debuff is no exception.
But I find that it is really the best debuff against melee mobs and
PCs. Scorpid sting produces a very small amount of aggro that can be
taken off easily and reduces the damage taken by the MT for enough time
to make it worthwhile for everyone, since it theoretically also lowers
the amount of healing involved. Why this idea of pulling with debuffs
hasn't made it to guides that I've read is beyond me.

Normal pull against a mob camps for me would go as follows: pull
target with debuff, run back. warrior attacks main target, add is lead
onto a frost trap and in 15 secs the pet is sent to it. wait for aggro
on main target, DPS main target, allow warrior to take aggro from pet.
If you learn to use FD in only very tight spots or when it is a
situation that will aggro the tank, not the healer, you will be a
better hunter. Disengage is a better tool, anyway.

steve.kaye

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Mar 3, 2006, 9:18:33 AM3/3/06
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Nate Engle wrote:

> There's a very good reason why the warrior needs to pull.
> Warriors need a few seconds to grab aggro and then build it
> up, and that gets thrown out of kilter if they're having to
> battle against your DPS at the same time they're battling
> the bad guys.

I don't fully understand this. When I'm solo and I need to pull I
stand at long range and fire off arcane shot or concussive shot (if
lack of space means that I can't get as far away as I'd like) and leave
auto-fire on. When I judge the mob is far enough away from other mobs
so that my pet won't get proximity agro for them I send him in. It is
*very* rare that the mob actually gets to melee range before the pet
pulls agro off me. Why doesn't this work with warriors? Is my pet's
growl and claw better at getting agro then all the tools the warrior
has to do this? I wouldn't have thought so.

steve.kaye

Nikolas Landauer

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Mar 3, 2006, 9:35:44 AM3/3/06
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Nate Engle wrote:
>
> There's a very good reason why the warrior needs
> to pull. Warriors need a few seconds to grab aggro
> and then build it up, and that gets thrown out of
> kilter if they're having to battle against your DPS
> at the same time they're battling the bad guys.

So teach the hunter to pull with Rank 1 Arcane Shot. Virtually nothing
else has as little aggro. (This, by the way, is my pulling technique
when I'm in a party with a warrior; I Freeze Trap, then Hunter's Mark
the baddie we should start damaging first, then Rank 1 Arcane Shot on
the nastiest baddie; he charges forward and hits the Freeze Trap, while
his buddies, from prox aggro, continue towards me. Meanwhile, I turned
and ran *behind* the warrior, who (once the group is a little ways past
the Freeze Trap) then Charges the Marked enemy and Shouts to pull the
others to him. He then tanks for a second or two, building up enough
aggro on the Marked target (and a little on the others), and we start
dpsing the Marked target to death. I switch Mark to a new target (often
the nastiest baddie, who had been Frozen until around then), and we
continue. If we've got a mage and rogue and are fighting Humanoids, we
try to time it so the Mage sheeps and the rogue Saps at the same time I
pull, so there are three in the group out of the fight. If the Frozen
baddie resists, or if the Trap breaks, or if I see the other CC'd
targets heading towards the fray, I target it and tell the warrior
"incoming", and he /assists me to grab aggro for that baddie, too.

Seems to work well when I'm playing with a good warrior. When I'm not,
or when there's no warrior (and I'm still in the 20s and 30s, where
this still works), I have to have my pet act as tank, which is never as
good in an instance.

--
Nik
Kirin Tor: Wraien, night elf hunter
Kirin Tor: Verzhanzi, undead mage {Poor Sages of Lordaeron}
Kirin Tor: Modesty, human rogue

Nate Engle

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Mar 3, 2006, 10:16:34 AM3/3/06
to

Some warriors don't seem to realize that they have the ability,
or maybe they don't realize what it does, but there's this thing
called "Sunder Armor". It stacks up to 5 times, and while it
doesn't do any actual damage to the target it creates a dramatic
amount of "hate" for the warrior who did the sunders. A warrior
needs to build up that sort of aggro control because the hunter
is ultimately going to pour in a higher DPS than the warrior and
the warrior can't maintain aggro simply on the basis of damage.

Depending on the target it can take 15 or 20 seconds to build
up enough sunders for the tank to be able to hold the enemy's
attention while there's all the extra DPS and healing going on.
There's a huge dramatic difference between a battle where the
tank holds the aggro and everyone kills the boss, and a battle
where the tank loses aggro and has to spend time chasing the
bad guy around hoping he can taunt it off the healers in time
before they die.

oceanclub

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Mar 3, 2006, 10:27:50 AM3/3/06
to
Hang on, Nate: it seems here, you're contradicting yourself. Before you
were scorning Hunters who think their job is simply to supply more DPS
than anyone else. Now you're saying it's because the warrior doesn't
know their own skills, or not communicating that they _will_ build up
aggro, but will take time. It seems to me there's faults on both sides
here. (God knows, I've seen enough bad warriors in the game.)

I fail to see how the Hunter class is destined to be poor at working in
a group; after all, a Hunter has practise of working in a group _all
the time_ - a group of 2, that is. The Hunter (and to a lesser extent,
the Warlock) are the two classes who have constant experience of
working with a tank (their pet, or the Voidwalker) and therefore knows
about concepts such threat, aggro, and knowing how much DPS they can
get away with without their tank losing aggro.

P.

Paul Vader

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Mar 3, 2006, 11:08:40 AM3/3/06
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"Vere" <deu...@gmail.com> writes:
>the amount of healing involved. Why this idea of pulling with debuffs
>hasn't made it to guides that I've read is beyond me.

I don't know either. Pulling with Seduce, Shackle, low level curses, etc.
is a perfectly good tactic. If you need to disable one of the group
anyway, why not lead off the battle by doing so? *

Paul Vader

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Mar 3, 2006, 11:11:25 AM3/3/06
to
"steve.kaye" <nos...@giddy-kippers.co.uk> writes:
>pulls agro off me. Why doesn't this work with warriors? Is my pet's
>growl and claw better at getting agro then all the tools the warrior
>has to do this? I wouldn't have thought so.

Warriors have a hair trigger charge button, and can't stand it when it's
not the first thing that happens in the battle.

I've made my piece with charging, but only as the SECOND thing that
happens, after a proper pull. Any warrior charging into a 5 pull is a
nitwit. *

Paul Vader

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Mar 3, 2006, 11:13:15 AM3/3/06
to
"oceanclub" <paul_m...@hotmail.com> writes:
>I fail to see how the Hunter class is destined to be poor at working in
>a group; after all, a Hunter has practise of working in a group _all
>the time_ - a group of 2, that is. The Hunter (and to a lesser extent,

I'll go further than that - a good hunter is the best group leader
there is. I want them marking and doing every pull if possible. *

Paul Vader

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Mar 3, 2006, 11:15:41 AM3/3/06
to
"Nikolas Landauer" <nlan...@gmail.com> writes:
>So teach the hunter to pull with Rank 1 Arcane Shot. Virtually nothing
>else has as little aggro. (This, by the way, is my pulling technique
>when I'm in a party with a warrior; I Freeze Trap, then Hunter's Mark
>the baddie we should start damaging first, then Rank 1 Arcane Shot on
>the nastiest baddie; he charges forward and hits the Freeze Trap, while

Even easier:
1) Lay a trap as close as you can get away with.
2) Stand back, and mark your main target.
3) Pull with concussive shot.
4) Have the warrior charge at the marked target the moment the trap goes
off (and if you did it right, it won't be the marked one ever!).

Do this right, and it's a thing of beauty. *

Brian

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Mar 3, 2006, 2:23:49 PM3/3/06
to
"Bother!", said Pooh, as he read Nate Engle's latest post to
alt.games.warcraft.

>There's a very good reason why the warrior needs to pull.
>Warriors need a few seconds to grab aggro and then build it
>up, and that gets thrown out of kilter if they're having to
>battle against your DPS at the same time they're battling
>the bad guys.

You can repeat this all you want, in as many variations as you want. And I
will never agree with it. There is no compelling argument that says the
warrior *must* pull. Many other classes can do it from greater range, with
greater control, and with better options for crowd control, aggro
management, options to reset a bad pull, etc.

If played with many tanks that had *no* difficulty gaining control of the
situation after a hunter pulled.

Brian
--
ICQ#: 68214833 | AIM: LineNoise54
.
Hospitality: Making your guests feel at home, even if you wish they were.

Nate Engle

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Mar 3, 2006, 3:07:50 PM3/3/06
to
Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> Nate Engle wrote:
>>There's a very good reason why the warrior needs
>>to pull. Warriors need a few seconds to grab aggro
>>and then build it up, and that gets thrown out of
>>kilter if they're having to battle against your DPS
>>at the same time they're battling the bad guys.

> So teach the hunter to pull with Rank 1 Arcane Shot.

No thanks, it's just simpler to let the warrior pull.

Nikolas Landauer

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Mar 3, 2006, 3:08:54 PM3/3/06
to

If you wish to ignore the multitude of posts pointing out very
effective non-warrior pulling techniques, and how much more useful they
are, go ahead. "Simpler" is rarely "better".

Almost every horror story I've heard about why warriors should pull,
particularly instead of hunters, was either a player being an ass (and
thus not class-related at all), or the warrior not knowing how to use
his aggro-gaining tools properly.

Nate Engle

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Mar 3, 2006, 3:27:49 PM3/3/06
to
oceanclub wrote:
> Hang on, Nate: it seems here, you're contradicting yourself.

It wouldn't be the first time, especially coming as I do from
Indiana, the state where South Bend isn't south, North Vernon
isn't north, and French Lick is not at all what you might
otherwise expect.

> Before you
> were scorning Hunters who think their job is simply to supply more DPS
> than anyone else. Now you're saying it's because the warrior doesn't
> know their own skills, or not communicating that they _will_ build up
> aggro, but will take time. It seems to me there's faults on both sides
> here. (God knows, I've seen enough bad warriors in the game.)

I've known some warriors (usually in their first MMORPG) who
were really proud of their DPS. More often than not they go
fury spec, and they're real hot shot PvPers. And they ignore
sunder armor as an ability, and when they get in an instance
where their DPS isn't as big as the hunter or rogue, they
inevitably lose aggro and things get really hairy.

By contrast I've also know warriors who were at the peak of
PvE aggro management ability, people who pulled out every
trick a warrior has at his disposal, only to have some smartass
hunter in the party score a high damage crit on an early aimed
shot before the warrior has enough sunders. Taking down a boss
mob is not some stinking footrace to be #1 on the damage meter.
It's a matter of keeping the incoming damage focused on a guy
who can deflect most of it, leaving the people who heal to
heal, and the people who do good DPS to do that. Downing a
boss 15 or 20 seconds sooner isn't worth the 5 minutes that
you lose running back from the graveyard after a wipe.

> I fail to see how the Hunter class is destined to be poor at working in
> a group

It isn't always the case that they are poor in groups. Some of
them are great in groups, but they only get that way by paying
a lot of attention to roles and how they can fit in and not make
the tank's job or the healer's job a lot harder than it has to
be.

; after all, a Hunter has practise of working in a group _all
> the time_ - a group of 2, that is. The Hunter (and to a lesser extent,
> the Warlock) are the two classes who have constant experience of
> working with a tank (their pet, or the Voidwalker) and therefore knows
> about concepts such threat, aggro, and knowing how much DPS they can
> get away with without their tank losing aggro.

I really wish that was the case, but I've met too many hunters
who spent minutes of my life that I will never be able to retrieve
explaining to me how they're a "melee hunter". To me a "melee
hunter" is just a guy who couldn't bring himself to admit that
"I have no idea how I can get my pet to hold aggro".

Nate Engle

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Mar 3, 2006, 3:39:05 PM3/3/06
to
Paul Vader wrote:

> steve.kaye writes:
>>pulls agro off me. Why doesn't this work with warriors? Is my pet's
>>growl and claw better at getting agro then all the tools the warrior
>>has to do this? I wouldn't have thought so.

> Warriors have a hair trigger charge button, and can't stand it when it's
> not the first thing that happens in the battle.

Some warriors definitely have that problem; fury-spec guys
who just can't bring themselves to give up the 15 rage they
get from the charge. A smart prot-spec warrior pulls with
a gun or a bow, and he gets his seed rage from bloodrage.

By definition a warrior pulls when it isn't safe to charge.

> I've made my piece with charging, but only as the SECOND thing that
> happens, after a proper pull. Any warrior charging into a 5 pull is a
> nitwit.

If the warrior charges into a group that doesn't involve a
risk of adds I don't see why it would be called a "pull".
And if there IS a risk of adds from near-by groups it's
probably best not to charge at any point in the process.
Charging isn't the only way to get rage, and if there's a
risk of getting the timing screwed up it's probably best
not to take the risk.

Nate Engle

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Mar 3, 2006, 4:00:09 PM3/3/06
to
Paul Vader wrote:

> oceanclub writes:
>>I fail to see how the Hunter class is destined to be poor at working in
>>a group; after all, a Hunter has practise of working in a group _all
>>the time_ - a group of 2, that is. The Hunter (and to a lesser extent,

> I'll go further than that - a good hunter is the best group leader
> there is. I want them marking and doing every pull if possible.

The best group leader is one who understands all the forms of
crowd control and approaches each group with the tactics that
work the best. Example: there are some groups in the early
part of scholo where there are 2 humanoids and 2 undead each,
and one of the humanoids is a priest type (neophyte) who can
do area group fears.

The smart money in that situation isn't for some hunter to
take a pot shot and hope for the best. The smart approach
is to sap the non-fearing humanoid, shackle an undead, let
the other undead and the neophyte come forward to step into
the ice block trap. Then hit the neophyte with whatever
cheapshot/stunlock abilities you have when he's right there
where you can butcher him, with a priest and/or mage standing
ready to silence or counterspell if the neo breaks out of
the stuns.

Another example: groups of demons in Maraudon - immune to
saps, polymorphs, and shackles. I went in there with my
warlock recently; I did all the pulls and it was child's
play. Enslave one satyr, then banish another. Quickly AoE
the grelkins. By that time the banish breaks and you use
the enslaved satyr to tank the free one while everyone else
DPSes it to death. Then release the enslaved one and chop
it down (it should already be whittled down to just a few
hit points by then).

Use the crowd control that is most effective and appropriate
to the types of mobs you're attacking. Sometimes that means
holding you fire so the rogues can sap. Sometimes it means
a druid casting a sleep on one dragonkin and an entangling
roots on another. The leader needs to know what he can do
and what all the people in the group can do as well.

Nikolas Landauer

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Mar 3, 2006, 4:17:31 PM3/3/06
to
Nate Engle wrote:
>
> I really wish that was the case, but I've met too many
> hunters who spent minutes of my life that I will never
> be able to retrieve explaining to me how they're a
> "melee hunter". To me a "melee hunter" is just a
> guy who couldn't bring himself to admit that "I have
> no idea how I can get my pet to hold aggro".

Okay, you're completely right about this one. I've met these people,
too. They always (and, yes, I mean *always*) fall into one of four
groups:

1) Don't understand pets and aggro; and/or
2) Don't understand dps and aggro; and/or
3) Are completely math-illiterate (hunter melee dps is virtually
*never* higher than hunter ranged dps, and the tools hunters have for
ranged combat make the contest nonexistent); and/or
4) Are very subtle Griefers.

--
Nik

Nate Engle

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Mar 3, 2006, 4:34:57 PM3/3/06
to
Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> Nate Engle wrote:
>>"melee hunter". To me a "melee hunter" is just a
>>guy who couldn't bring himself to admit that "I have
>>no idea how I can get my pet to hold aggro".

> Okay, you're completely right about this one. I've met these people,
> too. They always (and, yes, I mean *always*) fall into one of four
> groups:
>
> 1) Don't understand pets and aggro; and/or
> 2) Don't understand dps and aggro; and/or
> 3) Are completely math-illiterate (hunter melee dps is virtually
> *never* higher than hunter ranged dps, and the tools hunters have for
> ranged combat make the contest nonexistent); and/or
> 4) Are very subtle Griefers.

Never attribute to malice anything that can be adequately
explained as stupidity.

Nikolas Landauer

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Mar 3, 2006, 5:01:56 PM3/3/06
to

Exactly. 1-3 are all stupidity.

--
Nik

nuttyc...@gmail.com

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Mar 3, 2006, 5:44:01 PM3/3/06
to
I always find the hunter not pulling duscussions hilarious. think
about this , how many times has a warrior body pull, or the mage
warrior pull combo gone wrong resulting in everyone getting wiped
EXCEPT the hunter who just feign'd and layed there while everyone got
the crap beat out of them. the proceeds to pull out his Goblin jumper
cables(imo eng should be a mandatory hunter profession, free ammo and
some fun toys that really help a hunter out) and shocks the healer back
to life. think about that the next time your group tells a hunter he
can't pull. this is coming from a guy with 3 60 hunters(an orc ,
tauren , and a nightelf) and the horde chars are a member of a guild
that understands whay hunters exsist. we have many ways to drop and
gain aggo, i can easily pull a mob off the main tank or i can let the
mob be and wait till the healer catches aggo, using my pet and
distracting shot to save the cloth wearers frail little body. hunters
do get a bad rap, but if the hunter has any common sense and has even
solo'd to 60 we get plenty of experiance with aggo control from our
pet.

just my 2 cents, for what it's worth flame away if you will but i am my
guilds main puller, i know what i'm doing and i understand how the hate
tables work, and btw feigning in the middle of a fight is a great idea
if your priest fades at the same time, instant aggro back on the
tank(or at the very least back on the rogue, but they're expendable
anyway).

--Crazypoultry

chocolatemalt

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Mar 4, 2006, 3:07:39 PM3/4/06
to
In article <fn4h0257uudi4qoub...@4ax.com>,
Brian <brian...@pobox.com> wrote:

> "Bother!", said Pooh, as he read Nate Engle's latest post to
> alt.games.warcraft.
>
> >There's a very good reason why the warrior needs to pull.
> >Warriors need a few seconds to grab aggro and then build it
> >up, and that gets thrown out of kilter if they're having to
> >battle against your DPS at the same time they're battling
> >the bad guys.
>
> You can repeat this all you want, in as many variations as you want. And I
> will never agree with it. There is no compelling argument that says the
> warrior *must* pull. Many other classes can do it from greater range, with
> greater control, and with better options for crowd control, aggro
> management, options to reset a bad pull, etc.
>
> If played with many tanks that had *no* difficulty gaining control of the
> situation after a hunter pulled.
>
> Brian

I can see both points of view. It depends on circumstances.

If you have a bunch of excellent players who understand aggro, *anyone*
can pull (except pally if mobs are not undead). The mobs come running,
CC goes into effect, the warrior charges the mob with the most aggro on
the puller, does some AoE depending on nearby CC'ed mobs, the others in
the group wait for warrior to build up a few hits, rage, more AoE, etc,
then they open up on targeted kills, following the off-tank perhaps,
never getting aggro on more than one mob. This situation applies most
often to good guild groups, lvl 55-60 instances, or very lucky PUG's.

The other situation is much more common especially at lower and mid
levels: one or more of the members doesn't understand aggro or targeted
kills, and the healer has a wonderful time blowing mana on the leather-
and cloth-clad "tanks". Good luck using the chat window to deliver a
15-minute sermon on aggro management and group roles, etc... never
works, and some people don't want to learn or change behavior. In that
situation, even a warrior with an excellent hunter buddy in the party is
best off doing all the pulls and telling the group "Let me pull" so he
always has initial aggro and a second or two to build some incidental
aggro before the mobs are torn 5 different directions by the noobs. At
least you have *some* hope in that case, whereas having the hunter pull
will negate that chance.

Whatever happens, be sure to use "Karma" to keep track of these people.
I separate out the personality from the skills, so some of my notes will
say, for instance: "Nice guy, good sense of humor, totally incompetent
warrior" ...or just as often, vice versa.

steve.kaye

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Mar 6, 2006, 3:30:46 AM3/6/06
to

Catriona R wrote:
> On 2 Mar 2006 06:20:02 -0800, "oceanclub" <paul_m...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>I use a mod called SmartPet which "optimise" the pets abilities, ie
> >>cast growl every 5 seconds.
> >
> >That really is a must-have, just for the auto-Growl feature alone
> >(your pet will always retain enough focus to auto-cast Growl
> >every five seconds).
>
> Hmm, that sounds useful! I just turned auto-Claw off on my hunter and just
> manually Claw when I'm not hitting other buttons, but I'll look into that
> addon and see if it helps me :-)

Unfortunatley you are probably too late. The latest patch notes say
that you now need a hardware event to turn on/turn off autocasting of
pet abilities. I'm fairly sure that smart pet turns off the
autocasting of claw when you don't have enough focus to do a claw
without affecting your next growl. When focus raises enough to do both
then it turns on autocast for claw and your pet does it straight away.

steve.kaye

BombayMix

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Mar 6, 2006, 5:28:16 AM3/6/06
to
>>>>I use a mod called SmartPet which "optimise" the pets abilities, ie
>>>>cast growl every 5 seconds.

>>>That really is a must-have, just for the auto-Growl feature alone
>>>(your pet will always retain enough focus to auto-cast Growl
>>>every five seconds).

>>Hmm, that sounds useful! I just turned auto-Claw off on my hunter and just
>>manually Claw when I'm not hitting other buttons, but I'll look into that
>>addon and see if it helps me :-)

>Unfortunatley you are probably too late. The latest patch notes say
>that you now need a hardware event to turn on/turn off autocasting of
>pet abilities.

Well it's not mentioned on the notes posted here.

steve.kaye

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Mar 6, 2006, 5:50:26 AM3/6/06
to

There are a lot of things to with addon development not mentioned in
the release notes posted here that are in the release notes I have
seen. The notes that I have seen were not on an official WoW site
(they were pasted onto the www.wowace.com forums) but I am quite sure
that they are reliable.

Maybe there is a different set of release notes posted on the WoW UI
forum? Or maybe the OP here trimmed them (there are a lot of changes
for UI developers).

Also mentioned in these notes but not in the ones posted here is the
fact that SpellStopCasting() requires input to work which will break
the mana conservation mods that cancel the spell if the target is
suddenly healed at the last moment.

I can't find the notes on an official site as I am at work and they are
filtered out but the ones I am referring to are here:
http://wowace.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1175

steve.kaye

David Carson

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Mar 6, 2006, 7:51:16 AM3/6/06
to
steve.kaye wrote:
> I can't find the notes on an official site as I am at work and they are
> filtered out but the ones I am referring to are here:
> http://wowace.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1175

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html

In the User Interface section:

* Toggling autocast for pet actions requires input to work, like
commanding your pet does.

Cheers!
David...

Catriona R

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Mar 6, 2006, 9:01:49 AM3/6/06
to
On 6 Mar 2006 00:30:46 -0800, "steve.kaye" <nos...@giddy-kippers.co.uk>
wrote:

>Unfortunatley you are probably too late. The latest patch notes say
>that you now need a hardware event to turn on/turn off autocasting of
>pet abilities. I'm fairly sure that smart pet turns off the
>autocasting of claw when you don't have enough focus to do a claw
>without affecting your next growl. When focus raises enough to do both
>then it turns on autocast for claw and your pet does it straight away.

Yeah, I saw that, guess I'll just stick with the manual system then, no
point getting used to a mod doing it if it won't work in the future!
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 30)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 23)

oceanclub

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Mar 6, 2006, 12:35:30 PM3/6/06
to
steve.kaye wrote:

> Unfortunatley you are probably too late. The latest patch notes say
> that you now need a hardware event to turn on/turn off autocasting of
> pet abilities. I'm fairly sure that smart pet turns off the
> autocasting of claw when you don't have enough focus to do a claw
> without affecting your next growl. When focus raises enough to do both
> then it turns on autocast for claw and your pet does it straight away.

That's really annoying. I found having to turn on/off autocasting of
each of the four pet abilities _while_ having to already jump between
two hotbars of 10 buttons just too much micro-management, which is why
I was delighted to discover SmartPet. (If I wanted to play a game where
I need twitchy fingers, I'd play an FPS).

As it is, if this change goes though, I'll probably just move from my
cat to a more tankish pet and just leave Growl on permanently (say, a
Turtle).

P.

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