Are DPS Meters the Word of Satan?
facema...@yahoo.com
raiders go all out to max out DPS at the expense of smart play.
I was in a OS10 PUG. The first flame wall comes by. No one but me
moves out of the way but me and my elemental shammie turned tank is
left to take on the boss alone.
The raid leader then goes "Who was the lowest DPS?" Suddenly Without a
word I was booted from the group. (I was 4th on the DPS list as if
that mattered. Apparently the pug master could not even read that.)
The folks were so intent on DPS that they were not watching the flame
wall.
In TOC, I see people blasting the first boss and not going after the
head crabs.
In VOA, I see people blasting the boss and not going after the
overcharged minion.
And so on....
Plus what does it mean to be a 4K DPSer? I was in HOld Kingdom today
on the daily and did the two bosses necessary. The first boss I was
doing 6.5K on the last boss I was doing 2.8K. DPS doesn't mean squat
because it depends on what you're killing.
Then I add....a shammie doing his job isn't sitting there blasting out
DPS. There are things like dropping cleansing totems when people get
hit with poison and throwing a heal to the healer when he's about to
go down...and killing the mob in TOC requires the shammie to be
dispelling constantly (== 0 DPS). The same is true with any class.
ThomasH
> It seems to me that DPS meters are causing big problems in WOW as
> raiders go all out to max out DPS at the expense of smart play.
>
> I was in a OS10 PUG. The first flame wall comes by. No one but me
> moves out of the way but me and my elemental shammie turned tank is
> left to take on the boss alone.
>
> The raid leader then goes "Who was the lowest DPS?" Suddenly Without a
> word I was booted from the group. (I was 4th on the DPS list as if
> that mattered. Apparently the pug master could not even read that.)
> The folks were so intent on DPS that they were not watching the flame
> wall.
Two options:
- Don't PUG; find a decent guild or raid-comm with a raidleader that
understands this.
- Or start your own pug and hammer the importance of flamewalls into
your peers...
--
Greets, Thomas.
Bulgaroth (Hunter), Latigo (DK), Darkhulk (Druid), and Smallwall
(Paladin) on Argent Dawn EU.
Brent Stroh
>It seems to me that DPS meters are causing big problems in WOW as
>raiders go all out to max out DPS at the expense of smart play.
No, >>idiots with DPS meters<< are causing big problems in WOW as they go
all out to max DPS at the expense of smart play.
I won't rehash my view on "LFM H-VH - XX DPS" but I will say that I find it
absurd to think that player ability can be boiled down to a number.
Unleashing a nuke strike with every cooldown on the planet 4 seconds into a
fight will give you amazing DPS for the 6 seconds you're alive. And as you
pointed out, standing in fire for an extra 3 seconds to finish a cast and
not break rotation has a similar outcome.
The job of DPS isn't to maximize damage; it's to maximize damage through
the entire combat while staying alive.
--
Mertuka - Rogue (80) : Mallan - Priest (48) : Medanu - Druid (55)
Ralinth - Warlock (80) : Magorg - Hunter (48) : Ralethian - Paladin (60)
Rakhalga - DK (80) : Meedak - Mage (60) : Rahuraluna - Shaman (60)
Relikag - Warrior (10)
facema...@yahoo.com
not put down his tremor totem during the 3rd phase (MC) because he
said it would hurt his DPS.
Steve Kaye
That sounds like a reason to be kicked from a raid. :)
steve.kaye
--
Jengu - 80 Undead Death Knight Clokk - 74 Tauren Druid
Jelan - 80 Troll Priest Miho - 72 Blood Elf Rogue
Kibbs - 80 Blood Elf Paladin Jaille - 70 Blood Elf Warlock
Catriona R
>facema...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I was in an OL25 raid today....an enhanced shammie in the raid would
>> not put down his tremor totem during the 3rd phase (MC) because he
>> said it would hurt his DPS.
>
>That sounds like a reason to be kicked from a raid. :)
And a player who doesn't understand the game, since if there was a
deathknight in the group he'd get pretty much the same buff from them
as his strength of earth totem, which is the only earth one which
could be boosting his dps - I really cannot imagine a 25-man raid
existing with 0 deathknights in it!
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (80 Undead Priest)
Tairbh (80 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (78 Troll Shaman)
Balgair (71 Human Rogue)
Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock)
Ruire (70 Blood Elf Paladin)
Shiflet
"Catriona R" <catrion...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7lsn97F...@mid.individual.net...
> And a player who doesn't understand the game, since if there was a
> deathknight in the group he'd get pretty much the same buff from them
> as his strength of earth totem, which is the only earth one which
> could be boosting his dps
Technically, if he was specced into enhancing totems(which is what the
cookie cutter enhance spec does) his SoE totem gives a little more stats
than Horn of Winter(179 vs 155 I believe) so it would very slightly lower
his DPS, but certainly not enough to keep from doing something more useful.
PV
I'm having a hard time figuring out what OL25 refers to, but we have a
simple rule that if you talk about meters in the raid, or if you have a
role to do (such as dropping tremor totems as an additional fear remedy
on say Onyxia), you don't get to raid anymore. *
--
* PV Something like badgers, something like lizards, and something
like corkscrews.
C J Campbell
> DPS Meters are totally for nerds who obsess about their epeens. I feel
> sorry for them for squeezing all fun and enjoyment out of a computer
> game, reducing it to mere numbers. Poor bastards.
>
>
>
>
> Palindrome
What do you expect with a 32.33 (the three repeating, of course) per
cent chance of survival?
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor
Jamie Kahn Genet
Welcome to WoW - World of... damn, here my joke falls apart. What's a
word starting with w that means brainless idiot? :-D
--
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Shiflet
"Jamie Kahn Genet" <jam...@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote in message
news:1j927iz.z4a3z5143xsgwN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz...
> Welcome to WoW - World of... damn, here my joke falls apart. What's a
> word starting with w that means brainless idiot? :-D
You could go UK/Aussie slang and try "wankers" maybe?
Ashen Shugar
wrote something like...
World of Wankers?
Hmm, that's the only derogative word I can come up with currently that
starts with 'W'. Well, there is 'Wimp', but it doesn't really work
for this case.
Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
John Gordon
If the dumbass raid leader made some asinine requirement for personal
DPS such as "4k or no lootz for you", I can actually see this happening.
In any real raid, though, the shammy would be clearly wrong.
--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"
the_o...@nowhere.com
>"facema...@yahoo.com" <facema...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>I was in an OL25 raid today....an enhanced shammie in the raid would
>>not put down his tremor totem during the 3rd phase (MC) because he
>>said it would hurt his DPS.
>
>I'm having a hard time figuring out what OL25 refers to, but we have a
>simple rule that if you talk about meters in the raid, or if you have a
>role to do (such as dropping tremor totems as an additional fear remedy
>on say Onyxia), you don't get to raid anymore. *
We have a new rule in our runs its no vent no loot. just that simple.
We are now in the 21st century and voice in the game is part of it. We
just don't let any chit chat go on
Jamie Kahn Genet
> On 2009-11-10 02:42:00 -0800, Palindrome <butt...@safe-mail.net> said:
>
> > DPS Meters are totally for nerds who obsess about their epeens. I feel
> > sorry for them for squeezing all fun and enjoyment out of a computer
> > game, reducing it to mere numbers. Poor bastards.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Palindrome
>
> What do you expect with a 32.33 (the three repeating, of course) per
> cent chance of survival?
Oh that's a lot better than we usually do...
Jamie Kahn Genet
Nah, that just means jerk. More often than not they're a stupid jerk,
but there's no guarantee.
ImmortalCG
wrote:
> Plus what does it mean to be a 4K DPSer? I was in HOld Kingdom today
> on the daily and did the two bosses necessary. The first boss I was
> doing 6.5K on the last boss I was doing 2.8K. DPS doesn't mean squat
> because it depends on what you're killing.
Events where you get changed to a different "phase" such as killing
the "nightmare images" in Old Kingdom, or entering a portal in OS to
kill the adds will screw up DPS meters.
But.....what meters do allow you to do, is compare performance against
other players of a similar gear level and spec, and check if you meet
the minimum requirements to even attempt an encounter.
Doing 1.5k DPS on a boss dummy in Org and expect to easily beat
Patchwerk in Naxx with similar people before he enrages? (old example,
I use to check for 2k DPS on Patchwerk in Naxx10 when it was first
released and remove anyone from the PuG that was below 2k even if we
beat the encounter)
Doing 3k DPS on a boss dummy in Org and expect to beat ToC10 HC
Northrend beast with similar people? No you wont.
So meters are useful if use intelligently, they provide information,
it is people that miss use that information that are the problem, not
the meters.
CG
Villy Vonka
> So meters are useful if use intelligently, they provide information,
> it is people that miss use that information that are the problem, not
> the meters.
Spot on. DPS meters are a useful tool for testing out talent builds
and rotations on target dummies, in that sense they are important as
they enable players to improve their own performance under ideal
conditions in a static fight scenario.
Of course, such fights are incredible rare, the obvious one that
springs to mind is Patchwerk. More often, certain players will be
assigned a specific role, whether that is kiting or CCing adds,
exploding brittle constructs and so on.
Posting dps meters in raid chat serves little purpose other than to
brag and/or humiliate. I was in an OS25 PuG months ago and some brat
of a DK was posting the meters after every trash pull, because he was
top of the table. Top of the trash dps table indeed, how impressive
is that! A guildmate, who happened to be second, was so incensed by
this that he popped a flask and went all out for the remainder of the
run, and easily overtook the DK. Guess what? The DK stopped posting
the meters as soon as he dropped to second place!
The only time it is ever brought up in a guild raid is a positive
comment, like for example "crikey so-and-so was pulling 10K on those
whelps"
I guess what I'm saying is that used intelligently DPS meters can be a
useful tool and they can also identify people who are undergeared and/
or underperforming, but they have their place and should never be used
to brag or compete with other raid members. All that matters is
everyone does their assigned job and contributes to the boss kill.
Cheers
DarkRose
<christophercampbellremovet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2009-11-10 02:42:00 -0800, Palindrome <butto...@safe-mail.net> said:
>
> > DPS Meters are totally for nerds who obsess about their epeens. I feel
> > sorry for them for squeezing all fun and enjoyment out of a computer
> > game, reducing it to mere numbers. Poor bastards.
>
> > Palindrome
>
> What do you expect with a 32.33 (the three repeating, of course) per
> cent chance of survival?
>
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor
I expect more DoTs!!!!
Shiflet
> Nah, that just means jerk. More often than not they're a stupid jerk,
> but there's no guarantee.
My best friend's an Aussie, her dad and uncle both use it to refer to stupid
people, as well XD
Jamie Kahn Genet
Well I'm a Kiwi and at least here it's usually only applied to idiots
who are also jerks. It's like saying dickhead or arsehole, not fool or
stupid.
Rob Wynne
> DPS Meters are totally for nerds who obsess about their epeens. I feel
> sorry for them for squeezing all fun and enjoyment out of a computer
> game, reducing it to mere numbers. Poor bastards.
>
And here we have a shining example of the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle.
:)
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2010: Jan 8-10, 2010 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Shiflet
"Rob Wynne" <d...@america.net> wrote in message
news:hdh99h$33v$1...@news.america.net...
> Palindrome <butt...@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>> DPS Meters are totally for nerds who obsess about their epeens. I feel
>> sorry for them for squeezing all fun and enjoyment out of a computer
>> game, reducing it to mere numbers. Poor bastards.
>>
>
> And here we have a shining example of the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle.
> :)
I also wondered about "squeezing all fun and enjoyment out of a computer
game", cause for some, maximizing one's effectiveness IS what provides the
fun and enjoyment of a computer game. In Diablo 2, I don't keep playing
cause I find it all that exhilerating to kill Baal for the 122 thousandth
time, I play because BY killing Baal for the 122 thousandth time, it gives
me another level, thus providing me with 5 more points of vitality, and
another skillpoint to enhance my damage and thus makes my toon more
powerful.
Catriona R
I find it very sad that so many guilds have that attitude nowadays.
I'm sure it's great for most people, but there are those of us who
have hearing troubles and so can't actually use vent and the like (in
my case, if I were to have it on, I'd be able to concentrate *either*
on listening *or* on doing my job, not both, so it's much better for
me to not be on it).
So long as the players are intelligent it's more than possible to
complete raids without use of voice communications - I have never had
any situation where I'd felt things might have been improved with use
of voice; in general it's *better* to use raidchat for giving
instructions because it means anyone who wasn't paying attention for
whatever reason can quickly catch up via reading, instead of having
the same instructions repeated several times. All these
voice-compulsory attitudes do is ensure that players like me have
fewer and fewer chances to raid, depsite being equally good players.
the_o...@nowhere.com
I have been in too many instances or raids where someone said lets get
on with the fight. I been here before and i know what to do and they
are the first to screwup. Also saying that if they don't have vent or
choose not to use vent then thats fine they can go pug another raid. I
really don't care. Myself I find it real difficult to read the screen
and fight.
We have made one exception to one lady in our guild. She is 69 yrs
old and I am 66 yrs old. She does not have vent and I do. We take
care of our own but that is the only exception.
Shiflet
<the_o...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:vllof5h3v4475a00t...@4ax.com...
> I have been in too many instances or raids where someone said lets get
> on with the fight. I been here before and i know what to do and they
> are the first to screwup.
Yeah, because morons who DO have vent won't screwup or anything like that,
amirite?
Catriona R
On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:33:44 -0600, "Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net>
wrote:
Yeah, not sure why so many people think using vent instantly makes
somebody a competent player, whilst not having it makes them an idiot.
Nobody I've raided with seems to have anything bad to say about my
performance, although I've never used it... while I've heard of plenty
of idiots who are using it and who are not miraculously turned into
perfect players by the use of it.
Rob Wynne
>
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:33:44 -0600, "Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net>
> wrote:
>
>><the_o...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>news:vllof5h3v4475a00t...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> I have been in too many instances or raids where someone said lets get
>>> on with the fight. I been here before and i know what to do and they
>>> are the first to screwup.
>>
>>Yeah, because morons who DO have vent won't screwup or anything like that,
>>amirite?
>
> Yeah, not sure why so many people think using vent instantly makes
> somebody a competent player, whilst not having it makes them an idiot.
> Nobody I've raided with seems to have anything bad to say about my
> performance, although I've never used it... while I've heard of plenty
> of idiots who are using it and who are not miraculously turned into
> perfect players by the use of it.
There's also an issue that few people think about, which I've overserved in
my own raids.
It seems natural to, having a broadcast voice channel, call out certain
events as they happen. "Firewall, run to the back" in Sarth. The problem
is...people stop paying attention to their own situation and their own
debuffs and start paying attention to the vent caller. And then they stop
paying attention in general and do stupid things like stand in the
doomberry.
Last night, after having had enough of this, I told everyone that we were
done with that sort of thing, and people were just going to have to damn
well pay attention to their surroundings and do what they needed to do.
The boss was down shortly after, and it was a much smoother fight.
This is all about training mammals, you know. There's nothing especially
new in these concepts, nor are they unique to video games. *grin*
PV
>We have a new rule in our runs its no vent no loot. just that simple.
>We are now in the 21st century and voice in the game is part of it. We
>just don't let any chit chat go on
Stupid rule. We manage our entire raids over chat, and only use vent to
goof off.
If your raid requires someone yelling at you to watch out for stuff, find
another group to raid with, that one sucks. *
ImmortalCG
> I find it very sad that so many guilds have that attitude nowadays.
> I'm sure it's great for most people, but there are those of us who
> have hearing troubles and so can't actually use vent and the like (in
> my case, if I were to have it on, I'd be able to concentrate *either*
> on listening *or* on doing my job, not both, so it's much better for
> me to not be on it).
I dont have any hearing problems, but being male I inherently have
problems multi-tasking /silly.
Seriously though, listening to vent during an encounter, or worse,
being required to communicate on vent definatly lowers my performance.
Another problem I have encountered is in an internatioanl guild, the
raid leaders (including myself) sometimes forget that English is not
everyone's first language. We quickly go through tactics thinking
everyone can easily understand what we are saying (not the tactics but
the words) and will query if they dont understand the tactics. This
is not the case, accents change from raid leaders, and back ground
noise or other distractions can make it even more difficult for non-
native english speaking people to understand what is being explaned.
> So long as the players are intelligent it's more than possible to
> complete raids without use of voice communications - I have never had
> any situation where I'd felt things might have been improved with use
> of voice; in general it's *better* to use raidchat for giving
> instructions because it means anyone who wasn't paying attention for
> whatever reason can quickly catch up via reading, instead of having
> the same instructions repeated several times.
Typing in raid, or even better raid warning (dont consider this
shouting consider it as "This is not goofing around chat, you need to
briefly pay attention and read this"), using what I would call bullet
point sentances is the best form of communication prior to starting an
encounter in my opinion.
CG
Miikka
> It seems natural to, having a broadcast voice channel, call out certain
> events as they happen. "Firewall, run to the back" in Sarth. The problem
> is...people stop paying attention to their own situation and their own
> debuffs and start paying attention to the vent caller. And then they stop
> paying attention in general and do stupid things like stand in the
> doomberry.
In my own experience the best use for voice communication has been to
announce unexpected changes or situations. Things like: "Crap, missed
my interrupt Backup-Player could you interrupt?" Or when things get
messy for some reason, for example tank missing an add, some crucial
player getting killed or disabled and needing help, things like that.
For the most part I think tactics are a lot better to be handled in
raid chat, and for any foreseaable events most of us have raid addons
warning about them or you can just set your UI so that you will
notice them the way you want.
Things where I've found voice notification very valuable: Interrupters
missing their interrupts on Vezax, Melee that's supposed to go inside
Yog'saron's brain room getting constricted, tanks telling which black
holes they will keep open on Algalon and the spark killers warning the
healers when their sparks are about to die on Algalon again. Then on
ToGC things like who is getting targeted in the Faction Champion
event or on Anub'arak who will put Blessing of Protection on the
chased target if the one assigned to it is dead or too far away, or
if any of the crucial roles gets killed, like the frost sphere killers,
the debuff healers in phase 3 or somebody giving passive healing for
a group in phase 3 again.
It just feels that at least for most people it's very easy to quickly
react to an audible input and while you could do pretty much all the
instances and bosses without voice communication, it has at least on
our raids saved many a try when things don't go as smoothly as was
initially planned.
--
"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on
society." -Mark Twain
C J Campbell
Genet) said:
Um, witless... , no.
How about wart-brains?
Jamie Kahn Genet
i|||| | | || ||| || |||| 2.0
>> > Welcome to WoW - World of... damn, here my joke falls apart. What's a
>> > word starting with w that means brainless idiot? :-D
>>
>> Um, witless... , no.
>>
>> How about wart-brains?
>
> No, witless is good. World of Witless players.
World of Wallys
Jamie Kahn Genet
LOL :-D Even better as it's not so cutting. Most of the wallys in WoW
are just ignorant and unmotivated to improve their knowledge, not
maliciously stupid.
C J Campbell
Genet) said:
I was thinking World of Witless Wonders.
Jamie Kahn Genet
We have a new winner! :-D
ThomasH
> Typing in raid, or even better raid warning (dont consider this
> shouting consider it as "This is not goofing around chat, you need to
> briefly pay attention and read this"), using what I would call bullet
> point sentances is the best form of communication prior to starting an
> encounter in my opinion.
Like Miika says, you're correct. Chat is more clear than voice.
But the moment stuff starts going wrong, when unexpected things happen,
Vent rules. I can press the talk button and say "Shit, missed a taunt,
OT grab that add" in 3 seconds, I simply cannot type it without
interupting my work...
--
Greets, Thomas.
Bulgaroth (Hunter), Latigo (DK), Darkhulk (Druid), and Smallwall
(Paladin) on Argent Dawn EU.