Heroic Ramps
Dingbat Charlie
like I did kind of a shiity job and I'd like some input.
First of all, the tank was kind of iffy. He wasn't terrible, he
was able to tank multiple mobs, but his threat per second was kind
of low in my opinion. I did a good job not pulling aggro, but I
feel like my dps was lower than it should have been because I had
to hold back and never was able to let loose with the kind of shadow
bolt/DoT spam that boosts my numbers.
Anyway the tank isn't my main complaint. I died early in the fight
on both Omor and Nazan. Now so far as I can tell I didn't steal
aggro on the boss fights. I just died due to AOE on Omor and dragon
fire on Nazan.
Was I too close to Omor? I was on Banish duty for the felhounds
and I had to get maybe a *tiny* bit closer to him than I would have
liked. Anyway I was dead almost immediately and I'm not sure what
my mistake was.
The same pretty much goes for the Nazan fight. Boss gets off
dragon, I let tank build some threat, throw UA and Curse of Elements
and maybe one shadowbolt and firebreath, fire, dead warlock.
The group finished the boss, I got my badge and they weren't pissed,
I was a bit pissed at myself and didn't roll on the shards we hd
gotten as I felt like I didn't contribute as well as I could have
when it counted.
I have done these fights before and other than having some trouble
with the felpuppies on Omor, I haven't been the first one down.
Was it just a matter of being next on the threat table? I am not
sure I even was second on the threat table, as I was with 2 mages
who out dpsed me and I threw UA which doesn't even get me ANY threat
until a few ticks.
Any advice is appreciated.
Alan Shepherd
I've seen a warlock work on Omor as a warlock tank, ie once initial aggro
has been otained by the tank = Charge, all the ranged really lay on the
nukage- aggro pah, he does shadow bolts in return, warrior tries his best to
hold aggro on the adds. IMO the adds hit harder than the boss, and their
mana burn is worse than the boss's hits. As to the debuff he places on
players - on heroic it's unhealable so everyone must be at least 15 yards
apart.
Nazan's a harder fight - two adds, then the rider are no real problem, group
just move fast from the fire pools. On 20% (important) tank must pickup
Nazan fast, otherwise the healer gets a dragon breathing down his neck....
Tank & spank @ that point.
Kedge
wrote:
Omor puts a debuff on people which does damage to anyone too close to
them. Alan said, spread out to avoid the dmg.
Dingbat Charlie
> Banishing the adds on Omor = Bad idea, they spawn really fast.
>
> I've seen a warlock work on Omor as a warlock tank, ie once initial aggro
> has been otained by the tank = Charge, all the ranged really lay on the
> nukage- aggro pah, he does shadow bolts in return, warrior tries his best to
> hold aggro on the adds. IMO the adds hit harder than the boss, and their
> mana burn is worse than the boss's hits. As to the debuff he places on
> players - on heroic it's unhealable so everyone must be at least 15 yards
> apart.
>
banish all of the fel hounds, just one and try to enslave one.
As to the debuff, I am sure that was it, I wasn't as spread out
from the rest of the group as I should have been and the debuff
got me. But still why me? I am pretty sure the others were too
close together also. At the very least if I was too close to
another, weren't they too close to me also? As I type this it
occurs to my that maybe it was my squishy clothy self and whomever
I was too close to was in better armour.
NarKoMechBass
Wow! I would like to play on your server... on my server usually the
noobity is directly connected to "need button"...
lol
NarKoMechBass
> Banishing the adds on Omor = Bad idea, they spawn really fast.
>
> I've seen a warlock work on Omor as a warlock tank, ie once initial aggro
> has been otained by the tank = Charge, all the ranged really lay on the
> nukage- aggro pah, he does shadow bolts in return, warrior tries his best to
> hold aggro on the adds. IMO the adds hit harder than the boss, and their
> mana burn is worse than the boss's hits. As to the debuff he places on
> players - on heroic it's unhealable so everyone must be at least 15 yards
> apart.
>
Yeah, usually also i (shadow priest) do this: i tank Omor easy while
the tank uses him to build rage and after he switch berserk and do
adds
Also the party stays spreaded out in this way:
Tank on the adds
Me on the left, @ 9.45
Ranged dps on the right, @ 3.15
Healer in the middle, @ 6.30
Random OR @ 12.00 (if ranged) OR on the boss if melee
Moosen
Omor casts a very nasty debuff on a random person during the fight,
that does massive and fast damage to that person and everyone close to
them. You probably either got it on you, or were too close to someone
who had it. Need to stay spread out well apart from everyone else,
during that fight. It's very easy to miss this debuff if it gets cast
on you during the fight, lord knows it's bitten me often enough when I
forgot to look for it- one second you're doing fine and
blasting/hacking away, the next, you're mysteriously dead before you
even realize it.
On Nazan, you just have to stay mobile and stay out of the 'napalm'
fires that erupt wherever one of his fireballs land. They burn you up
fast. Also, stay away from his front end, his fire-breath is rather
nasty too. No doubt one or both of those got you. If a fireball lands
under or near you, you can't keep finishing a cast, you have to just
move, *now* :-) Especially if you're a squishy without a huge health
pool.
Moosen
Yep. That debuff ranges from threatening to annoying to a platejob,
but for a low-life squishie, it's guaranteed daisies if you don't get
healing.
ke...@spamsucks.com
> feel like my dps was lower than it should have been because I had
> to hold back and never was able to let loose with the kind of shadow
> bolt/DoT spam that boosts my numbers.
Tanks can gear themselves differently. My pally tank with a 2-mage/1-warlock
party can run heroic ramps in about 38 minutes (my personal best so far,
working on getting better at it). That includes AOEing the entire place with
no CC. But, I have concentrated on having high spell damage. Other tanks may
concentrate more on survivability/avoidance. A few tanks may be misgeared
entirely (for example, a pally with a warrior sword without spelldam on it).
You also want to adjust your tactics to the tank. For example, with a pally
cast rain of fire / SoC-spam to hit multiple targets. With a warrior or druid
concentrate on shadowbolt spam on a single target.
> Was I too close to Omor? I was on Banish duty for the felhounds
> and I had to get maybe a *tiny* bit closer to him than I would have
> liked. Anyway I was dead almost immediately and I'm not sure what
> my mistake was.
Watch out for people with the debuff. Omor will turn someone into a bomb; you
get too close and you are dead. Generally everyone spreads out as much as
possible on this fight. You should be able to banish one puppy, enslave the
second, and tank the third with the enslaved one. It gets dicey when you have
to chase down a puppy that's running for the healer.
IMO, the funnest way to run Omor is with the warlock tanking. The lock stands
at a distance and blasts Omor with shadowbolts. Omor will only cast spells in
return. A modest amount of shadow resistance can make a lock into a very
reasonable tank, and you can let the melee class chase down the puppies.
When it comes to the dragon, the key is to immediately get out of the fire.
The tank should be turning the dragon so that he does not breath on you (if
the tank is letting the dragon face the party, then deaths are due to the
tank's fault)
> Was it just a matter of being next on the threat table? I am not
> sure I even was second on the threat table, as I was with 2 mages
> who out dpsed me and I threw UA which doesn't even get me ANY threat
> until a few ticks.
If you're doing lots of heroics (and starting to raid), then make sure to get
a threat meter like "Omen". Provided the tank is also using it, then it will
be a real life saver.
Keep in mind that the DPS classes generally have some way to mitigate threat.
You can soulshatter. The mages can ice block. A good DPSer will build up some
threat and then dump it using one of those tactics.
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ScratchMonkey
> Keep in mind that the DPS classes generally have some way to mitigate
> threat. You can soulshatter. The mages can ice block. A good DPSer
> will build up some threat and then dump it using one of those tactics.
Wow, thanks. I wondered what soulshatter was for, and why mages loved to
ice block so much.
This thread has been a gold mine of info on all aspects of not just this
encounter but general group technique.
Yeechang Lee
> Keep in mind that the DPS classes generally have some way to
> mitigate threat. You can soulshatter. The mages can ice block. A
> good DPSer will build up some threat and then dump it using one of
> those tactics.
As a tank I wouldn't advise warlocks or mages to count on these
spells, though, because of their long (generally five minutes)
cooldowns. They should be reserved for emergencies.
Hunters' Feign Death is different, because of its 30-second
cooldown. That's why, when I am the only paladin in a group (which is
most of the time in a five-man run) I give Blessing of Might to
hunters but Salvation to everyone else.
--
"Sorry, but I consider lack of a 'pause me' command [in World of
Warcraft] to be a bug. At the very least, a lack of needed feature.
fwiw, I am a programmer by profession."
-Burt Johnson, alt.games.warcraft, 11 Jan 2006
ke...@spamsucks.com
> spells, though, because of their long (generally five minutes)
> cooldowns. They should be reserved for emergencies.
Once you've DPSed enough, you kinda know the right time to do the shatter. On
a boss fight it is a very worthwhile technique to shed aggro especially when
the fight is a DPS race against an enrage timer. That being said, there've
been a few times when I've not watched the threat meter well enough, see the
boss start making a sprint in my direction, and blow the soulshatter early,
and then spend the whole fight threat-capped because shatter is down.
What really irks me is those boss fights with built-in frequent threat
clears. It's very unfair to those classes that don't have low-cooldown aggro
dumps, and biased in favor of those classes (i.e. hunters) that do.
NarKoMechBass
> ke...@spamsucks.com wrote:
> > Keep in mind that the DPS classes generally have some way to
> > mitigate threat. You can soulshatter. The mages can ice block. A
> > good DPSer will build up some threat and then dump it using one of
> > those tactics.
>
> As a tank I wouldn't advise warlocks or mages to count on these
> spells, though, because of their long (generally five minutes)
> cooldowns. They should be reserved for emergencies.
>
Well, if u know well the pg, u SHOULD count on it... i know well my
char (shadow priest) so i know WHEN i can push on dps, never had the
need to use "fade" to lower my threat because i was high without i was
aware of this; usually i know that my fade is ready so i know i can
push up my dps (remind fade don't cancel threat, only make 1k threat
disappear for 30 secs)
>
> Hunters' Feign Death is different, because of its 30-second
> cooldown. That's why, when I am the only paladin in a group (which is
> most of the time in a five-man run) I give Blessing of Might to
> hunters but Salvation to everyone else.
>
Usually i call salvation on me in trash pulls, but on bosses (longer
fights) i prefer king or wisdom, because i know how to manage my
threat
ke...@spamsucks.com
> fights) i prefer king or wisdom, because i know how to manage my
> threat
It'd be interesting to do some analysis on this. Salv reduces threat caused
by 30%. Generally my warlock is threat-capped by our main tanks, even with
salv active. If I pretend soulshatter doesn't exist, I would do 30% less
damage without salv because I have to throttle back 30%. Having kings would
be of no benefit to me, because I'm already threat-capped on the amount of
DPS I can do.
However, taking soulshatter into account, I can use it to strategically lower
my threat. It has a 5 minute cooldown, so in theory I could use it twice
during a hypothetical boss fight that lasts > 5 minutes. So, would use of
kings, with careful threat management and optimal use of soulshatter increase
my damage output during a fight? I think it probably would. Is it really
worth the bother? probably not.
Yeechang Lee
> It'd be interesting to do some analysis on this. Salv reduces threat
> caused by 30%.
I tell DPS who ask for something besides Salvation (assuming I'm the
only paladin in the group) that Salvation is effectively a 30% DPS
buff because of the threat reduction. However, for most classes it'll
be a bigger DPS buff than that, of course, because of their inherent
threat-limitation abilities.
> Generally my warlock is threat-capped by our main tanks, even with
> salv active.
By threat-capped, I presume you mean that you are not ever
stamina->mana capped?
Kings would/may help your warlock in three ways:
* 10% greater STA. Again, it sounds like that's not an issue for you;
I learned a long time ago that warlocks don't need Blessing of
Wisdom, for example.
* 10% greater STA. 10% greater health is, well, 10% greater
health.
* 10% greater INT. I don't know if any warlock spells' crit
chances are based on INT.
Overall, however, I agree that at the end of the day warlocks get
Kings (after Salvation) by default because neither Wisdom nor Might is
appropriate.
Alan Shepherd
>>>
>>> I've seen a warlock work on Omor as a warlock tank, ie once initial
>>> aggro
>>> has been otained by the tank = Charge, all the ranged really lay on the
>>> nukage- aggro pah, he does shadow bolts in return, warrior tries his
>>> best to
>>> hold aggro on the adds. IMO the adds hit harder than the boss, and their
>>> mana burn is worse than the boss's hits. As to the debuff he places on
>>> players - on heroic it's unhealable so everyone must be at least 15
>>> yards
>>> apart.
>>>
>>Thank you for your reply. I should have been more clear, I try to
>>banish all of the fel hounds, just one and try to enslave one.
>>
>>As to the debuff, I am sure that was it, I wasn't as spread out
>>from the rest of the group as I should have been and the debuff
>>got me. But still why me? I am pretty sure the others were too
>>close together also. At the very least if I was too close to
>>another, weren't they too close to me also? As I type this it
>>occurs to my that maybe it was my squishy clothy self and whomever
>>I was too close to was in better armour.
>
> Yep. That debuff ranges from threatening to annoying to a platejob,
> but for a low-life squishie, it's guaranteed daisies if you don't get
> healing.
The debuff is a curse placed on ONE player only & does massive 3k a tick
damage to everyone within 15 yards, except the player with the debuff.
It can be dispelled but I've never seen it resisted & on heroic is
unhealable.
Alan Shepherd
>> caused by 30%.
>
> I tell DPS who ask for something besides Salvation (assuming I'm the
> only paladin in the group) that Salvation is effectively a 30% DPS
> buff because of the threat reduction. However, for most classes it'll
> be a bigger DPS buff than that, of course, because of their inherent
> threat-limitation abilities.
>
>> Generally my warlock is threat-capped by our main tanks, even with
>> salv active.
>
> By threat-capped, I presume you mean that you are not ever
> stamina->mana capped?
>
> Kings would/may help your warlock in three ways:
>
> * 10% greater STA. Again, it sounds like that's not an issue for you;
> I learned a long time ago that warlocks don't need Blessing of
> Wisdom, for example.
> * 10% greater STA. 10% greater health is, well, 10% greater
> health.
> * 10% greater INT. I don't know if any warlock spells' crit
> chances are based on INT.
>
> Overall, however, I agree that at the end of the day warlocks get
> Kings (after Salvation) by default because neither Wisdom nor Might is
> appropriate.
The analysis has been done many times - & with a one pally 5 man, Salv
allows many players to nuke away & just carefully watch a crit stream.
Often on my mage I start later 3-4 secs after first hit on 5 man bosses /
high HP trash, and really push the damage, rarely pull aggro & usually top
the damage done. Without Salvation my mage is threat capped & really has to
watch aggro, often pausing between frost bolts. The best example is in
Karazhan, on Prince (Warlocks, Mages, Hunters, other ranged etc), you cannot
pull aggro = wipe; but DPS can push 1k DPS, few tanks can manage that lvl of
threat, so threat management is required.
gerryq
> Anyway the tank isn't my main complaint. I died early in the fight
> on both Omor and Nazan. Now so far as I can tell I didn't steal
> aggro on the boss fights. I just died due to AOE on Omor and dragon
> fire on Nazan.
>
> Was I too close to Omor? I was on Banish duty for the felhounds
> and I had to get maybe a *tiny* bit closer to him than I would have
> liked. Anyway I was dead almost immediately and I'm not sure what
> my mistake was.
Probably his curse.
> The same pretty much goes for the Nazan fight. Boss gets off
> dragon, I let tank build some threat, throw UA and Curse of Elements
> and maybe one shadowbolt and firebreath, fire, dead warlock.
You've seen the signature, I'm sure: "World of Warcraft is full of
challege. Sometimes there is fire. You must not be in the fire."
Almost certainly, you were in the fire.
> Was it just a matter of being next on the threat table? I am not
> sure I even was second on the threat table, as I was with 2 mages
> who out dpsed me and I threw UA which doesn't even get me ANY threat
> until a few ticks.
I doubt it, simply because if the boss had gone for you you'd probably
remember it. Pulling aggro from Omar is no worse than dealing with
his devil dogs anyway. And if Nazan aggroed you he would chase you
around and you'd remember that. So I think you probably stayed in his
fiery breath too long.
- Gerry Quinn
gerryq
<ScratchMonkey.blackl...@sewingwitch.com> wrote:
> ke...@spamsucks.com wrote innews:g6dbq...@news2.newsguy.com:
>
> > Keep in mind that the DPS classes generally have some way to mitigate
> > threat. You can soulshatter. The mages can ice block. A good DPSer
> > will build up some threat and then dump it using one of those tactics.
>
> Wow, thanks. I wondered what soulshatter was for, and why mages loved to
> ice block so much.
For the record, Ice Block makes a mage temporarily immune to all
damage for ten seconds. When a mage casts it, the mob goes after the
next person on its threat table, and if the mage de-iceblocks then,
the mob won't change back unless the mage's aggro is massive.
Unfortunately, the next person on the threat table is not always the
tank, so pulling agro and ice blocking is not something a mage should
make a point of doing. Ice Block is a way to survive if you screw up.
Also, Ice Block does not reduce the mage's threat at all.
The main threat dump for mages is Invisibility - you should cast this
before your threat becomes enough to pull the mob from the tank, and
it reduces your threat to zero.
Not all mages understand how this works, because if you always raid
with a paladin, then Prince is the first time you are likely to need
Invisibility unless your tanks are relatively undergeared. (Even then
you only need it to maximise DPS.)
A secondary threat reduction talent for mages is Arcane Subtlety - it
gives Arcane spells 40% threat reduction compared to the 15% available
to Fire and Frost. So with 2 points in this talent, you can rotate in
a few Arcane Blasts if you're getting near the tank on threat and you
don't want to use Invisibility.
- Gerry Quinn