unsolicited "advice" from strangers
Dingbat Charlie
Hold. I figured I'd run up there and see what sort of rep goodies
I could get. As I was wandering around, I get a random whisper
from a guys standing around there. "PvP gear is better than your
gear."
Now first of all, I am hardly geared poorly, as a warlock I have
Frozen Shadoweave set, Belt of Blasting, Spellstrike set and various
rep items from SSO and Scryers. Second of all this was a total
random tell from a stranger. What would posess someone to offer
advice to someone randomly walking by as to how they should gear?
I mean I guess I could understand if I had just run an instance
with someone and underperformed, or shit even if I hadn't underperformed
but it was someone I had grouped with or something.
He told me the Merciless Gladiator set was better. I answered that
I don't like PvP and I don't like the SL/SL spec and It wasn't that
important to me. He said that I should get in a 2v2 team and lose
10 games a week for this bitchin' PvP gear.
Now I have to confess that I don't particularly hold a high opinion
of PvP gear, just because I see it and think to myself, "they
probably win traded and/or lost 10 games a week for it." I mean
no offence to people who like arena, and PvP in general. If you
are good and like it I am sure you deserve the gear you have. It
is kind of a prejudice of mine. Anyway this guy managed to uphold
this particular prejudice.
So should a 100% PvE warlock grind arena/bg for PvP gear? Actually
that is a stupid question. I am happy with my crafted/rep/Kara
stuff and am just annoyed that someone would see fit to offer random
advice. And I am a bit annoyed at Blizzard if PvP gear is THAT
much better.
Shammy
DC> Now first of all, I am hardly geared poorly, as a warlock I have
DC> Frozen Shadoweave set, Belt of Blasting, Spellstrike set and various
DC> rep items from SSO and Scryers. Second of all this was a total
DC> random tell from a stranger. What would posess someone to offer
DC> advice to someone randomly walking by as to how they should gear?
DC> I mean I guess I could understand if I had just run an instance with
DC> someone and underperformed, or shit even if I hadn't underperformed
DC> but it was someone I had grouped with or something.
Seems some just dont have anything better to do, no idea why he would
whisper if you didnt even group with him.
I never got a whisper like that but I'm always wearing pvp gear everywhere
(pvp server) so I doubt someone would /w me and say why dont you wear pve
gear.
DC> He told me the Merciless Gladiator set was better. I answered that
DC> I don't like PvP and I don't like the SL/SL spec and It wasn't that
DC> important to me. He said that I should get in a 2v2 team and lose
DC> 10 games a week for this bitchin' PvP gear.
I have no idea what exactly are you wearing so I cant comment if some
merciless pieces are better than what you have now.
And you dont HAVE to be SL/SL in BG, you wont live 5 sec otherwise but you
dont have to be SL/SL :p
DC> Now I have to confess that I don't particularly hold a high opinion
DC> of PvP gear, just because I see it and think to myself, "they
DC> probably win traded and/or lost 10 games a week for it." I mean no
DC> offence to people who like arena, and PvP in general. If you are
DC> good and like it I am sure you deserve the gear you have. It is
DC> kind of a prejudice of mine. Anyway this guy managed to uphold this
DC> particular prejudice.
It's stupid to think bad of pvp gear just cause some people /afk in BG for
it, for example I always fought for my gear as did many others.
It's not the fault of the gear that some people manage to to get it with
minimal effort, it's blizzard's fault they did such a system :p
DC> So should a 100% PvE warlock grind arena/bg for PvP gear? Actually
DC> that is a stupid question. I am happy with my crafted/rep/Kara
DC> stuff and am just annoyed that someone would see fit to offer random
DC> advice. And I am a bit annoyed at Blizzard if PvP gear is THAT much
DC> better.
Well just look at the gear and you will know if it's that much better. Again
I dont know what do you have exactly but my guess is that many pvp pieces
are better than you have now and probably most of the season 4 if not all is
better than you have now.
For example season 4 has item level 159 and kara gear has item level 115 so
you can immagine how much more item budget is spent on the season 4 item.
Even if the s4 is more pvp oriented it will still have stats that will
outweight the pve stats from the pve gear.
I'm talking only about blues vs merciless (S2) or kara epics vs brutal
gladiator (S4), there is no question that Black Temple/Sunwell gear is
better for pve than any pvp gear.
The.Blu...@googlemail.com
> Frozen Shadoweave set, Belt of Blasting, Spellstrike set and various
> rep items from SSO and Scryers. Second of all this was a total
> random tell from a stranger. What would posess someone to offer
> advice to someone randomly walking by as to how they should gear?
> I mean I guess I could understand if I had just run an instance
> with someone and underperformed, or shit even if I hadn't underperformed
> but it was someone I had grouped with or something.
I think the unsolicited 'advice' is simply rude, even if you had
grouped with him.
That kind of ‘advice’ is generally unwanted – it sounds as if he was
just bored and wanted to show off.
However I was playing with my alt yesterday , as I had enough of BG’s
for one day, (my lvl 27 rogue and grouped with a lvl 25 hunter) – he
was only equipped with only gray items for armour (one green –
gloves ) and no weapons apart from a bow - I could help myself but to
give some advice.
> He told me the Merciless Gladiator set was better. I answered that
> I don't like PvP and I don't like the SL/SL spec and It wasn't that
> important to me. He said that I should get in a 2v2 team and lose
> 10 games a week for this bitchin' PvP gear.
I have worked hard for Merciless Glad pieces - becoming a BG hore over
the last couple of weeks - god I've improved at PVP - however I still
suck !
I'm not going to get into Kara anytime soon, and the only way to gear
up was to make my own FSW set and fill in the blanks with some S2
gear. With an overall goal to have two sets - one for PVE and one for
PVP. However a selected mix between the two is working for me at the
mo.
> Now I have to confess that I don't particularly hold a high opinion
> of PvP gear, just because I see it and think to myself, "they
> probably win traded and/or lost 10 games a week for it." I mean
> no offence to people who like arena, and PvP in general. If you
> are good and like it I am sure you deserve the gear you have. It
> is kind of a prejudice of mine. Anyway this guy managed to uphold
> this particular prejudice.
Just because this bloke was ‘annoying’ doesn’t change the fact that S2
gear is quite nice. I was stuck with quest rewards for my head and
bracers – and wanted to upgrade them – hence my adventure into BG’s
for the honour and badges.
My 2 weeks of honour grind has netted me the Merciless glad silk cowl,
some nice bracers (Vindicator’s silk cuffs – season 3) and the
Merciless Glad touch of death wand.
I am working towards the Merciless Glad leggings, the Staff and some
nice rings ...., and some nice gems …. I was like a kid in a sweet
shop!! Another 2 weeks hard work to get the honour required.
> So should a 100% PvE warlock grind arena/bg for PvP gear? Actually
> that is a stupid question. I am happy with my crafted/rep/Kara
> stuff and am just annoyed that someone would see fit to offer random
> advice. And I am a bit annoyed at Blizzard if PvP gear is THAT
> much better.
If your happy stay with what you have ....... stay as you are.
However here comes some ‘advice’ ….. at least go and have a look at
the S2 gear (http://www.wowwiki.com/Season_2_Arena_rewards), some of
it might complement what you have, and a little grind in the BG's
might not then seem so bad.
As a closing note - my time in BG's has really increased my knowledge
of my class ... it's strengths and weaknesses. And I think I'm a
better player for it.
Kai Sauerzapfe
> After running the daily heroic, I realized I was revered with Honor
> Hold. I figured I'd run up there and see what sort of rep goodies
> I could get. As I was wandering around, I get a random whisper
> from a guys standing around there. "PvP gear is better than your
> gear.
> Now first of all, I am hardly geared poorly, as a warlock I have
> Frozen Shadoweave set, Belt of Blasting, Spellstrike set and various
> rep items from SSO and Scryers. Second of all this was a total
> random tell from a stranger. What would posess someone to offer
> advice to someone randomly walking by as to how they should gear?
> I mean I guess I could understand if I had just run an instance
> with someone and underperformed, or shit even if I hadn't underperformed
> but it was someone I had grouped with or something.
>...
> So should a 100% PvE warlock grind arena/bg for PvP gear? Actually
> that is a stupid question. I am happy with my crafted/rep/Kara
> stuff and am just annoyed that someone would see fit to offer random
> advice. And I am a bit annoyed at Blizzard if PvP gear is THAT
> much better.
Ok, PVP gear has a much higher item level than for example gear you can get
out of Kara. But this doesn愒 mean that it愀 "better" for PVE purpose.
Usually caster PVP gear is missing +spellhit. I think you can use PVP gear
in Kara or Heroics but if you plan to do some 25 raid content then your
damage will be quite bad because of many resists or part-resists. Usually
the PVP weapons are really nice indeed. But you can get your items elsewhere
without doing pvp.
So if you don愒 like pvp don愒 do pvp. Easy as that. And resilence is an
absolutely worthless stat in pve.
Kai
lcpltom
This argument has existed for a while as to what is better, PvE or PvP
gear. I think anyone who says that one set of gear is superior over
the other in all cases is someone who hasn't really played the game
(i.e. your unsolicited adviser).
Sure, PvP gear is great. Its purple, its easy to get, it has better
stats than anything you can get through questing. You don't really
have to work for it. You don't have to be good at PvP to get the
gear. You just have to show up. Thats what makes PvP gear so
attractive to some players, and probably what attracted your adviser.
Its got great stats for a PvP warlock, but not so great for a PvE
warlock.
PvE gear is great too. Its harder to get, as most groups aren't just
going to let you tag along, you're expected to pull your own weight.
If you try to just show up like you would in BG's, you most likely get
kicked from the group. Because it actually takes skill to get, PvE
gear tends to attracts the elitist jerk players, who say their gear is
better simply because they actually earned it.
I like my PvE gear, and while I'm proud that I earned it rather than
having it handed to me for showing up in BG's, I also enjoy the PvE
side of the game much more than the PvP side. So the PvP gear has
never attracted me for anything more than plugging some holes in my
gear.
That, and the enjoyment I get when in a heroic or Kara group, and
someone shows up with their cookie cutter PvP spec and gear, and I out-
DPS them and make them cry (a rogue whined over vent that he was being
out-DPSed by a warlock).
And I know that PvP gear isn't bad for all PvE. I know DPS warriors
and paladins take it as the best source of DPS plate, and druid tanks
use the resilience to make up for their inability to block. But for a
warlock doing PvE, the PvP gear is lacking in hit and crit. Sure its
got lots of stamina, but that just means when the mob doesn't die fast
enough because 15% of your casts were resisted, smashes the tank then
comes after the lock, the lock will survive 1 more hit than usual.
Also gives some extra health to life tap, and considering the number
of resists, will have to life tap a bit more. Likewise, a warlock in
a BG or arena with PvE gear on is just a big soft target for any melee
class out there.
My favorite observation nowdays is how the increased difficulty in
obtaining arena gear has exposed the real lazy PvPers. When S1 and S2
gear was easy to get, I saw warlocks wearing that stuff all the time.
Rarely did I see a warlock in T4 or T5 gear. When S3 came out and
added some more requirements for certain gear items, PvP warlocks
didn't advance much past S2 items. The S3 warlock helm, using the
same model as the T6 warlock helm, has those cool demon wings that
occasionally appear, flap, then disappear. Its the most coveted helm
for all warlocks. I see more warlocks with the T6 helm than I see
with the S3 helm. Seems that when actual skill was injected into the
arena gear formula, the real lazies showed their true colors.
Shammy
KS> or part-resists. Usually the PVP weapons are really nice indeed.
KS> But you can get your items elsewhere without doing pvp.
KS> So if you don´t like pvp don´t do pvp. Easy as that. And resilence
KS> is an absolutely worthless stat in pve.
Ok so a char that levels to 70 and isnt in a raid guild that is willing to
"boost" him without any gear...where is he supposed to get his weapons
where? Preferably 2 weapons that go well together...
I levelled a rogue to 70 recently (3 months ago) and I looked everywhere
for a decent weapon and you know where was my only option?? BG
And since I saw with my own eyes what does a weapon do to a rogue (warrior
even more) I would like to know where can a rogue get a 98 dps 1h if he
doesnt pvp? And no the 71 dps blues just wont cut it.
Lancelet
my blacksmith duty, when some totally stranger told my that my gear was not
good. In fact, he didn't said that because it was in french,at least in a
phonic way, and I was unable to understand what he has meant.
So, I asked him to develop, he did, and I only had to laugh.
My paladin was wearing his "roleplay" set, a mix of level 35-50 mail and
leather gear. And this guy thought my gear was not good.
Shammy
L> My paladin was wearing his "roleplay" set, a mix of level 35-50 mail
L> and leather gear. And this guy thought my gear was not good.
Well he was right wasnt he ? :p
Why should someone think that gear is good for a lvl 65 pally?
Toumar Kaldrenon
> much better.
This is what bothers me about the gear shift caused by season 4.
As a lot of people have noticed from looking at the stats and the
armor textures, PvP and PvE gear go something like this:
Rep PvP -> ~Dungeon 3
S1 -> ~T4
S2 -> ~T5
S3 -> ~T6
S4 -> Sunwell gear
Obviously, the stat layout is different. PvP gear favors stamina and
resilience, sacrificing raw output (str/agi, +dmg or + heals) in favor
or survivability stats. They also drop out +hit (spell and physical)
and certain other nice bonuses for PvE effectiveness (Druid resto PvP
gear has no spirit on it!). Obviously, if you want to do PvE stuff,
the PvE semi-equivalent of a certain rank of PvP gear will outperform
the PvP gear.
But here's the problem! With the advent of Arena Season 4, it is now
possible to get full S3 with S4 gloves, along with comparable
accessories, which are slightly less PvE effective than BT, Hyjal, and
Sunwell gear, from BG farming and Arenas.
No one should ever attempt to claim that the 'equivalent' PvP gear for
a certain range is just as good for PvE (Claiming full S2 is just as
good as full T5, for example). But (and most info sites are blocked in
my office so I can't check specific numbers) it's almost certainly the
case that S3 and S4 gear are better even for PvE than some Kara gear.
The end result is that people will be able, by numbers, to do enough
DPS for places like Mag's, Gruul's, and starting SSC, without ever
having set foot in Kara or a heroic. Now, any sane raid leader is
going to make certain that they only take people who know what they're
doing, but it still breeds the misconception, in my opinion, that PvP
gear is "better" than PvE gear because it's easier to get and has big
numbers on it.
I'm not one of those hardcore raiders who's gonna bitch until I'm blue
in the face about "how hard I worked for my epics and you guys just
take everything for granted, I DPSed uphill both ways in the snow for
green items with spirit on them and was grateful!" But there's still a
valid point to be made, in that the effort that goes into raid
progression should be rewarded with improved raid usefulness, and that
the effort that goes into PvP progression should be rewarded with PvP
usefulness, and there shouldn't be the kind of overlap we're seeing
now.
I personally think that the stat bonuses on PvP gear should work like
Unstable Flasks, Righteous Weapon Coatings, Bloodberry Elixirs, and
the like. "These bonuses only take effect in Warsong Gulch, Alterac
Valley, etc..." Your thoughts?
steve.kaye
> Sure, PvP gear is great. Its purple, its easy to get, it has better
> stats than anything you can get through questing. You don't really
> have to work for it. You don't have to be good at PvP to get the
> gear. You just have to show up. Thats what makes PvP gear so
> attractive to some players, and probably what attracted your adviser.
> Its got great stats for a PvP warlock, but not so great for a PvE
> warlock.
>
> PvE gear is great too. Its harder to get, as most groups aren't just
> going to let you tag along, you're expected to pull your own weight.
> If you try to just show up like you would in BG's, you most likely get
> kicked from the group. Because it actually takes skill to get, PvE
> gear tends to attracts the elitist jerk players, who say their gear is
> better simply because they actually earned it.
>
> I like my PvE gear, and while I'm proud that I earned it rather than
> having it handed to me for showing up in BG's, I also enjoy the PvE
> side of the game much more than the PvP side. So the PvP gear has
> never attracted me for anything more than plugging some holes in my
> gear.
I also like my PvP gear and am proud of the fact that I earned it. I
hate the fact you don't need to work for it because that means that
everyone has it regardless of how good they are at PvP.
Before I got my pvp weapons I'd cheer every time I beat a Rogue that
had them because it meant that I'd outplayed them despite the
disadvantage I had (until I got the S2 weapons I was a Hemo specced
Rogue with two daggers because I couldn't find anything better).
Now people that I beat will just see the sparkly pvp maces and assume
that I just outgeared them with pvp gear that I didn't earn.
steve.kaye
Kai Sauerzapfe
As i said, weapons is a different thing.
When we did SSC a year ago all our DPS-classes went for the PVP weapons
because the were (and are right now) a lot better than the reachable PVE
weapons.
As for the rest of the gear PVP gear is missing +hit (for melee) and
+spellhit (for caster) stats, which is a decent DPS-loss in PVE encounters.
As for 1h weapons you can get some for badges. Don´t know if they´re useful
for rogues because i never played one.
Kai
steve.kaye
> I personally think that the stat bonuses on PvP gear should work like
> Unstable Flasks, Righteous Weapon Coatings, Bloodberry Elixirs, and
> the like. "These bonuses only take effect in Warsong Gulch, Alterac
> Valley, etc..." Your thoughts?
I thought about that. It does have it's advantages. You'd be assured
that everyone in the BGs would be there because they liked it, not
because of the easy purples.
The disadvantage would be for people on PvP servers. I have a PvE set
and a PvP set and usually quest in my PvP set so that I am ready to
defend myself if attacked by a player. It wouldn't be fair to not
allow me to defend myself properly against people who have chosen to
do PvE over PvP so they have raid gear that I don't. As it stands I
have a good chance of defending myself in world PvP against all but
the best raiders in their PvE gear but with this restricted usage
system I would be at a disadvantage against even people who only run
non-heroic 5 mans.
steve.kaye
Rob Wynne
> And I know that PvP gear isn't bad for all PvE.
The real issue here is that most people don'get the nuance of this
statement. Because no, PvP gear *isn't* bad for all PvE. But what it
isn't is *optimal*.
I used PvP pieces to fill in my PvE set, because it was better than some of
the drops I'd gotten. Slowly, I replaced most of it with T5 level PvE
gear. But just like I wouldn't show up for an Arena match in T5 PvE gear,
I don't show up for T5/6 raids in full (merc/veng) Gladiator gear thinking
that I'm good to go. I might do okay, but I'm not hitting the best of my
potential, because I'm stacked up on stats that I don't need (Resiliance),
don't need as much of (Stam), and missing stats I really DO need (+hit,
Int).
Of course, that's speaking as a Hunter. Other classes have different
priorities, which may dovetail with the PvP itemization better.
None of this changes the fact that the guy who wispered the OP was a rude
sumbitch. :)
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2009: Jan 9-11, 2009 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Toumar Kaldrenon
> The disadvantage would be for people on PvP servers. I have a PvE set
> and a PvP set and usually quest in my PvP set so that I am ready to
> defend myself if attacked by a player. It wouldn't be fair to not
> allow me to defend myself properly against people who have chosen to
> do PvE over PvP so they have raid gear that I don't. As it stands I
> have a good chance of defending myself in world PvP against all but
> the best raiders in their PvE gear but with this restricted usage
> system I would be at a disadvantage against even people who only run
> non-heroic 5 mans.
Totally a valid point - I honestly forget about world PvP a lot
because I play on an RP server and only do world PvP on rare
occasions, because it's not exactly my cup of tea.
I suppose a better solution would be to make PvP gear only provide no
stat bonuses inside instances/dungeons, then. Not eliminate any of the
places where PvP gear is useful, but eliminate the places where you
shouldn't be wearing it anyway.
On one hand, it's annoying to constantly have Blizz rebalance things
so that you don't have to know what's right because you -can't- do it
wrong, but on the other hand, I'm really just tired of knowing people
can outgear me without even trying. Honor and Arena point farming
don't take skill, even though it does take skill t do -well- in PvP.
Frank E
<kald...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I personally think that the stat bonuses on PvP gear should work like
>Unstable Flasks, Righteous Weapon Coatings, Bloodberry Elixirs, and
>the like. "These bonuses only take effect in Warsong Gulch, Alterac
>Valley, etc..." Your thoughts?
Would it work both ways? IE: Stat bonuses from dungeon/raid gear don't
work in PvP? If so, how does a player ever get a starting set of PvP
gear?
Rgds, Frank
Toumar Kaldrenon
> Of course, that's speaking as a Hunter. Other classes have different
> priorities, which may dovetail with the PvP itemization better.
There are definitely exceptions to the rule - Feral druid tanks who
have a hard time getting uncrittable through PvE means use Resil to
get the cap, and the gear comes with the armor, stam, and dps stats
they need built right in. It's more an issue of Blizzard needing to
work on Feral itemization than an issue of PvP gear being 'for' PvE,
but that's just how it is right now.
Also, from what little I know about the class, Warlocks have it pretty
slick in terms of using PvP gear. There are two PvP sets for locks,
one for Afflic or SL/SL, and one for Destro (as far as I can tell).
One of them has spell hit on it! Probably not enough to get to cap,
but still better than rogue or hunter PvP gear that has ZERO hit on
it. Plus, what warlock ever complained about overstacking Stam?
> None of this changes the fact that the guy who wispered the OP was a rude
> sumbitch. :)
True story.
cryptoguy
Dingbat Charlie wrote:
> After running the daily heroic, I realized I was revered with Honor
> Hold. I figured I'd run up there and see what sort of rep goodies
> I could get. As I was wandering around, I get a random whisper
> from a guys standing around there. "PvP gear is better than your
> gear."
I had it happen once - my ret pally was mid-30s, iirc, and going
after yetis in Alterac. Another player watched me for a while,
and /w'd that I was really undergeared,
noting that I had to drink/eat after most mobs.
This was my first char, and I thought this was normal. I'd read
that buying armor while levelling was a fools' game, since you
outlevel it so quickly.
He was right, I guess. I went to the AH and geared up. It helped.
Now it's my policy to buy the best stuff available every 5 levels.
My pally is now at 70, and still undergeared - I don't raid or
run too many instances. I hate PvP, but an considering grinding
it for a while just for the armor.
pt
Toumar Kaldrenon
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:31:54 -0700 (PDT), Toumar Kaldrenon
>
> >I personally think that the stat bonuses on PvP gear should work like
> >Unstable Flasks, Righteous Weapon Coatings, Bloodberry Elixirs, and
> >the like. "These bonuses only take effect in Warsong Gulch, Alterac
> >Valley, etc..." Your thoughts?
>
> Would it work both ways? IE: Stat bonuses from dungeon/raid gear don't
> work in PvP? If so, how does a player ever get a starting set of PvP
> gear?
Another good comment (and evidence of why I'm not on the game balance
crew at Blizzard HQ, I think). Obviously, if that were the case,
there'd have to be vendor purchasable green/blue PvP items that gave
people the equivalent of dungeon and quest rewards for PvE. There are
already rep set blues for level 70 players, but not all PvP occurs at
70, so making all gear universally PvE-only or PvP-only would shaft a
lot of lowbies who wanted to BG casually as they leveled.
If PvE gear remained usable in PvP but PvP gear were removed from use
in dungeons, I'm certain a large group of players would be upset. Some
of them would have a right to be - the ones who actually did their
best in PvP, worked for their gear, and want to get PvE gear and start
raiding but would like to use their hard-earned PvP gear to start
their raid career cause it's the best they've got. People who
deliberately lost 10 games a week for full S2/3 can kiss my ass, but
people who know the difference between PvE and PvP but would prefer to
raid in full Merc than in blues and greens, I can respect.
I'm not exactly sure of the solution here - any other suggestions?
John Gordon
> even more) I would like to know where can a rogue get a 98 dps 1h if he
> doesnt pvp? And no the 71 dps blues just wont cut it.
I'm curious -- why do you think you're *entitled* to a top-end weapon
if you don't raid and don't pvp? You think gear should just fall into
your lap?
--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"
PhilHibbs
> Would it work both ways? IE: Stat bonuses from dungeon/raid gear don't
> work in PvP? If so, how does a player ever get a starting set of PvP
> gear?
I can't think of a good reason to make it work both ways. To answer
your last question, though, if it's as easy as people say to get
welfare pvp epics they might as well just give them out for free or
for a few golds.
On a more serious note - I have a level 70 troll prot warrior in
blues, and I need tanking gear. Are there any PvP items that I should
be looking for? A shield, maybe? I've started to do a few
battlegrounds to get some honour so I can buy myself a few items to
get my stamina up, but I don't really know what I should be aiming
for.
Hoofu, 70 tauren shaman, Argent Dawn (EU)
Toumar Kaldrenon
> On a more serious note - I have a level 70 troll prot warrior in
> blues, and I need tanking gear. Are there any PvP items that I should
> be looking for? A shield, maybe? I've started to do a few
> battlegrounds to get some honour so I can buy myself a few items to
> get my stamina up, but I don't really know what I should be aiming
> for.
>
> Hoofu, 70 tauren shaman, Argent Dawn (EU)
IF you need a good tanking shield, don't go for the PvP one - do SSO
things and regular MgT, the shield that you can buy from rep (at
Exalted, I think) is much better for PvE and aobut as good as the
stuff you'll find in Kara. As far as other pieces, I can't honestly
say, because I've never geared out a 70 warrior tank, but if you're
having trouble getting to 490 def, Resil can help hold you over until
you get it through PvE items.
Dingbat Charlie
But at least the person was watching you grind and then offered up
advice that you found to be helpful. My guy just looked at my
stuff and in essence told me to dump it and go get pvp gear. As
stated elsewhere a rude sumbitch.
Kai Sauerzapfe
>On a more serious note - I have a level 70 troll prot warrior in
>blues, and I need tanking gear. Are there any PvP items that I should
>be looking for? A shield, maybe? I've started to do a few
>battlegrounds to get some honour so I can buy myself a few items to
>get my stamina up, but I don't really know what I should be aiming
>for.
I had the same problem with my warrior-tank-twink.
I found nearly no useful pvp item which could replace any pve blue
dungeondrop. I have thought about the shield too, but as i didn�t wanted to
respec to furry oder MS i just got my reputation up for shathar ( i think
this was it) to get their shield.
Right now i�m looking for a nice tanking weapon but i think the pvp weapons
all have a weaponspeed > 2.3 which makes them quite useless for tanking.
So i think that i�ll stick to pve items.
Kai
djar...@gmail.com
> In <g621a8$os...@localhost.localdomain> "Shammy" <n...@nothing.com> writes:
>
> > even more) I would like to know where can a rogue get a 98 dps 1h if he
> > doesnt pvp? And no the 71 dps blues just wont cut it.
>
> I'm curious -- why do you think you're *entitled* to a top-end weapon
> if you don't raid and don't pvp? You think gear should just fall into
> your lap?
Seems like that question could be turned around: Why do you think
you're *entitled* to a top-end weapon just because you raid or pvp?
John Gordon
> > I'm curious -- why do you think you're *entitled* to a top-end weapon
> > if you don't raid and don't pvp? =A0You think gear should just fall into
> > your lap?
> Seems like that question could be turned around: Why do you think
> you're *entitled* to a top-end weapon just because you raid or pvp?
Because those are the paths the game has established for earning top-end
items.
yoj...@gmail.com
> > And I know that PvP gear isn't bad for all PvE.
>
> The real issue here is that most people don'get the nuance of this
> statement. Because no, PvP gear *isn't* bad for all PvE. But what it
> isn't is *optimal*.
Very well put. And it doesn't scale evenly for all classes. For
example, warrior/rogues may get comparable dps from same ilvl PvE and
PvP gear. But healers absolutely cannot heal PvE content with PvP
gear. There is no where near enough inherent mana regeneration.
> I used PvP pieces to fill in my PvE set, because it was better than some of
> the drops I'd gotten. Slowly, I replaced most of it with T5 level PvE
> gear. But just like I wouldn't show up for an Arena match in T5 PvE gear,
> I don't show up for T5/6 raids in full (merc/veng) Gladiator gear thinking
> that I'm good to go. I might do okay, but I'm not hitting the best of my
> potential, because I'm stacked up on stats that I don't need (Resiliance),
> don't need as much of (Stam), and missing stats I really DO need (+hit,
> Int).
>
> Of course, that's speaking as a Hunter. Other classes have different
> priorities, which may dovetail with the PvP itemization better.
Yep.
Toumar Kaldrenon
> In <64533179-1f82-43d3-b735-e45979543...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com> "djarvi...@gmail.com" <djarvi...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Seems like that question could be turned around: Why do you think
> > you're *entitled* to a top-end weapon just because you raid or pvp?
>
> Because those are the paths the game has established for earning top-end
> items.
I was about to say something similar: Raids and PvP are where top end
items -come from-. It may be disappointing to someone who doesn't
particularly enjoy either, to not really have the same level of access
to those things, but as John said, that's where they are. So people
who are in that content are entitled to the rewards of that content,
and people who don't play that content aren't.
Can't complain about not winning the election if you don't run for
president.
djar...@gmail.com
> In <64533179-1f82-43d3-b735-e45979543...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com> "djarvi...@gmail.com" <djarvi...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > > I'm curious -- why do you think you're *entitled* to a top-end weapon
> > > if you don't raid and don't pvp? =A0You think gear should just fall into
> > > your lap?
> > Seems like that question could be turned around: Why do you think
> > you're *entitled* to a top-end weapon just because you raid or pvp?
>
> Because those are the paths the game has established for earning top-end
> items.
Without trying to be facetious, that argument seems rather circular.
"We can only earn top-end items by running raid or pvp because running
raid or pvp are the only way to earn those items."
Perhaps the argument should be presented as "Why hasn't Blizzard
allowed non-raid, pvp'ing players to earn top-end items?" The answer
"because that's they way they did it is" is somewhat unsatisfying.
I'm sure there are answers such as 'balance' or 'time invested' or
something like that; I just don't know what they are.
Robert
"Dingbat Charlie" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:slrng87t5...@panix2.panix.com...
> After running the daily heroic, I realized I was revered with Honor
> Hold. I figured I'd run up there and see what sort of rep goodies
> I could get. As I was wandering around, I get a random whisper
> from a guys standing around there. "PvP gear is better than your
> gear."
>
> Frozen Shadoweave set, Belt of Blasting, Spellstrike set and various
> rep items from SSO and Scryers. Second of all this was a total
> random tell from a stranger. What would posess someone to offer
> advice to someone randomly walking by as to how they should gear?
> I mean I guess I could understand if I had just run an instance
> with someone and underperformed, or shit even if I hadn't underperformed
> but it was someone I had grouped with or something.
>
> He told me the Merciless Gladiator set was better. I answered that
> I don't like PvP and I don't like the SL/SL spec and It wasn't that
> important to me. He said that I should get in a 2v2 team and lose
> 10 games a week for this bitchin' PvP gear.
>
> Now I have to confess that I don't particularly hold a high opinion
> of PvP gear, just because I see it and think to myself, "they
> probably win traded and/or lost 10 games a week for it." I mean
> no offence to people who like arena, and PvP in general. If you
> are good and like it I am sure you deserve the gear you have. It
> is kind of a prejudice of mine. Anyway this guy managed to uphold
> this particular prejudice.
>
> So should a 100% PvE warlock grind arena/bg for PvP gear? Actually
> that is a stupid question. I am happy with my crafted/rep/Kara
> stuff and am just annoyed that someone would see fit to offer random
> much better.
I get told all the time that I need to get better gear, and I don't group
with anyone anytime, so who cares if I don't get to do allot of the higher
runs, I still have some fun, the part I hate the most is when people tell me
I need to get my epic mount, I'm sorry, I love my White Frostsaber, and I
cant see what I "need" with a epic on the ground. I'm right now working to
get my first flying mount, and at the moment there are only 7 or 8 of the
dallies that I can do because I don't have the flying mount, and I don't
group.
Toumar Kaldrenon
Time investment would certainly be an understandable one. The top end
item require either raid progression or a large quantity of Badges of
Justice to acquire, and it makes sense that equivalent items aren't
easier to access, or else no one would go through the hard method to
get them unless they truly liked the gameplay of that method that much
- but even then, they would probably get the easy-access items first,
freeing them from gear concerns when tackling the tough content.
It's the built in reward for organizing and succeeding as a 10 or 25
man team - you get the best goodies.
lcpltom
Thats kind of the nature of any role playing game. In order to better
your character, you gain experience or better items. Once you hit max
level, the only real course is getting better items. And if those
better items were just handed to you just because you hit 70, then
what point is there in playing after hitting 70? The game ceases to
offer any incentive to play, and Blizzard loses customers because
there is nothing left to look forward to.
But if you make those items a reward, people get a sense of
accomplishment when they achieve those items. And for any reward you
have to have some sort of task, whether that be working together with
a large group in a raid, or AFKing in a battleground and making sure
you don't get caught.
That being said, if everything was just handed to you in the game, you
would start out at level 70 with full epic gear, thousands of gold to
spend at your wish, and maxed out professions of your choice.
And where does it say that you're not sufficiently geared if you're
not in full epics? If you're not grouping or PvPing, quest reward
blues, crafted items, drops, and AH items can easily gear you out more
than enough to handle anything that solo play throws at you. So, if
you're not PvPing or grouping for dungeons and raids, there really is
no overwhelming need for epic items other than to have phat lewts like
everyone else who put some amount of work into getting that stuff.
I bet if they changed the color of the PvP gear from purple to blue,
fewer people would be interested in it based on the color alone.
Catriona R
wrote:
>PvE gear is great too. Its harder to get, as most groups aren't just
>going to let you tag along, you're expected to pull your own weight.
>If you try to just show up like you would in BG's, you most likely get
>kicked from the group. Because it actually takes skill to get, PvE
>gear tends to attracts the elitist jerk players, who say their gear is
>better simply because they actually earned it.
Sadly true, although some are that way about their pvp gear too so...
both sides have their jerks.
>That, and the enjoyment I get when in a heroic or Kara group, and
>someone shows up with their cookie cutter PvP spec and gear, and I out-
>DPS them and make them cry (a rogue whined over vent that he was being
>out-DPSed by a warlock).
Heh yeah, I was slightly amused in OHB on my 68 shaman the other day,
we had a very annoying warlock in s2 gear (didn't inspect but he had
the shoulders and robe for sure) who whined about everything and acted
like he thought he was so much better than the rest of us... on
checking the dps meters at the end, I had 35% dmg done, he had 25%...
me being 2 lvls lower in greens and low 60s quest blues :-P Frankly
his gear should've been way better than mine even with it being pvp
gear; I only have 400 spelldmg unbuffed!
Catriona R
<kald...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jul 21, 11:00 am, Rob Wynne <d...@america.net> wrote:
>> Of course, that's speaking as a Hunter. Other classes have different
>> priorities, which may dovetail with the PvP itemization better.
>
>There are definitely exceptions to the rule - Feral druid tanks who
>have a hard time getting uncrittable through PvE means use Resil to
>get the cap, and the gear comes with the armor, stam, and dps stats
>they need built right in. It's more an issue of Blizzard needing to
>work on Feral itemization than an issue of PvP gear being 'for' PvE,
>but that's just how it is right now.
Valid point, I was shocked to see how few items have def on that are
wearable by druids, but then I'd still not be hugely happy to see a
druid in full pvp gear and nothing else show up as a tank - I've
grouped with excellent tanks that had 2-3 pvp items, no problem, some
even in half pvp gear, but it's always a case of picking and choosing
I think, pick out the best items which *really* improve your stats in
pve as well, for example my UD priest wears the pvp bracers, ring and
mace, as all are superior to other available items at my level of pve
progress. I certainly wouldn't wear my full pvp set in pve, because
its regen is dire!
>Also, from what little I know about the class, Warlocks have it pretty
>slick in terms of using PvP gear. There are two PvP sets for locks,
>one for Afflic or SL/SL, and one for Destro (as far as I can tell).
>One of them has spell hit on it! Probably not enough to get to cap,
>but still better than rogue or hunter PvP gear that has ZERO hit on
>it. Plus, what warlock ever complained about overstacking Stam?
Yeah the warlock gear seems nice, wish I could motivate myself to pvp
some more on my locks and get some gear improvements - not all pieces
are best available to me, but some are very good.
>> None of this changes the fact that the guy who wispered the OP was a rude
>> sumbitch. :)
>
>True story.
Agreed!
Trooper
williams...@bellsouth.net says...
>
>
> I get told all the time that I need to get better gear, and I don't group
> with anyone anytime, so who cares if I don't get to do allot of the higher
> runs, I still have some fun, the part I hate the most is when people tell me
> I need to get my epic mount, I'm sorry, I love my White Frostsaber, and I
> cant see what I "need" with a epic on the ground. I'm right now working to
> get my first flying mount, and at the moment there are only 7 or 8 of the
> dallies that I can do because I don't have the flying mount, and I don't
> group.
>
>
>
I totally understand your point of view, but you are aware thatg you
can't just buy your flying mount, you have to buy the epic riding
training first before you can buy the slow flying mount training?
Sure if you like your mount and want to keep it, no problem, but if part
of your motivation is saving money, then that isn't going to happen :)
T.
Tixover
Surely the answer is - "to get top end items Bliz want you to pay
subscriptions for as long as possible". I haven't really looked too much
at them, but don't the heroic badges give decent kit which doesn't
require either raiding or PvP? They also require significant time to
build up, and I don't know where they fit in the tiers of epics, but
isn't that the "third way" ?
Tix
PhilHibbs
> having trouble getting to 490 def, Resil can help hold you over until
> you get it through PvE items.
Actually I looked at my items last night and realised that I can get
just over 490 by putting +8 Def gems in the 6 yellow sockets that
currently have whites and greens in them.
I think I might go all out on SSO rep, someone else in my raid
recommended that as a career path.
Ognian, 70 troll warrior, Argent Dawn (EU)
Robert
"Trooper" <remov...@trooperlooper.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.22efb01f...@nntp.motzarella.org...
I have the epic training for the ground mount, I've had it since level 65,
but I just don't like the look of the epic ground mounts.
ave
> elitist jerk players, who say their gear is better simply because
> they actually earned it.
I'm sorry, but PvE gear does not need 'skill' to get.
ave
Shammy
R> I have the epic training for the ground mount, I've had it since
R> level 65, but I just don't like the look of the epic ground mounts.
You dont like any of the 5 alliance epic mounts or even the talbuk is an
option? :O
Ashen Shugar
like...
Basically true, I'd agree. Though as I understand it, it's harder to
get PvE gear if you don't have any skill than it is to get PvP gear
without skill. Especially once you get to the higher end stuff.
Season 2 gear is available by running Battlegrounds and only
pretending to do something I believe. Equivalent item level PvE items
require a SerpentShrine Cavern run and even then, most of the SSC
items are of a lower item level than season 2.
If you can get 24 other people to take you on a SSC run and then give
you the gear that drops even though you've got no skill and died every
pull without doing hardly anything, then while it's not game skill,
it's certainly *some* kind of skill. ; )
Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
Rob Wynne
> I think it was "ave" <a...@nomailplease.com> that wrote something
> like...
>
>>> Because it actually takes skill to get, PvE gear tends to attracts the
>>> elitist jerk players, who say their gear is better simply because
>>> they actually earned it.
>>
>>I'm sorry, but PvE gear does not need 'skill' to get.
>>
>>ave
>
> Basically true, I'd agree. Though as I understand it, it's harder to
> get PvE gear if you don't have any skill than it is to get PvP gear
> without skill. Especially once you get to the higher end stuff.
> Season 2 gear is available by running Battlegrounds and only
> pretending to do something I believe. Equivalent item level PvE items
> require a SerpentShrine Cavern run and even then, most of the SSC
> items are of a lower item level than season 2.
>
C'mon. Hardcore PvPers already have inadequacy anxieties and self-esteem
issues. Pointing out that they basically get their gear for nothing is
just cruel. :)
*tongue firmly in cheek*
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2009: Jan 9-11, 2009 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
ave
> you the gear that drops even though you've got no skill and died every
> pull without doing hardly anything, then while it's not game skill,
> it's certainly *some* kind of skill. ; )
Before I become more of a pvp player than a pve one (basically, due to real
life issues I cannot promise to be at a particular raid and sometimes I'm
there when I didn't expect to be) I used to raid a lot. I was even class
leader for rogue's at the time.
Certainly there are players who know their class well and perform far better
than others of the same class/gear level, and yes I would say (in the realm
of WoW) they are skilled players. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people
who do pve are not 'skilled'.
What I am saying, is that gearing via PvE raids does not require skill.
Whilst I've met a fair number of pve players who are indeed good players,
I've almost met far more who are not good players.
PvE progression (and gearing) requires only a few things:
1) A regular raid group (duh)
2) Time investment to learn the encounters.
3) Appropriate gearing (including enchanting + gemming).
4) Ability to read
If you're in a guild where you are attempting to make world firsts in
instance encounters, then perhaps skill may appear in the list. Apart from
that, the above four points come far above 'skill' when it comes to raid
progression.
As I said, there *are* pve players who have skill in the game and their
class. But they are (as far as I've seen) in the minority rather than the
majority.
ave
steve.kaye
I'm with him on that one. Most of the epic mounts look worse than
their non-epic versions imo (except for the ones that already look so
bad that they couldn't get any worse :P)
Of course, I don't dislike any of them so much that I'd rather go at
60% speed.
steve.kaye
lcpltom
It is kind of a 3rd way.
At first, those items were starter items for kara and good for
heroics. Most badge items got replaced in kara.
When ZA came out, they added more items to the badge vendor that were
similar to ZA items, but still not as good as SSC or the Eye items.
The badge vendor in Shat sold the items for easily obtained numbers of
badges. I think the most expensive was 30 badges.
2.4 added the new badge vendor in Quel'Danas, who sold BT quality
epics, but had much higher prices than the vendor in Shat. While its
possible to grind nothing but heroics and buy these items, it takes a
lot of work to get there. Kara is better for getting the badges now
anyway, and a lot of raiders don't even bother with heroics, so
getting a heroic group nowdays can be difficult. Meaning, if you
don't have enough time to raid or run heroics a lot, you most likely
won't be getting one of those items.
I want the caster dagger from the QD vendor. I've been saving badges
since I first read about the dagger when it was on the PTR. I've even
gotten in on a few Kara runs. I'm at 114 badges now. With eny luck,
I'll have the 150 I need before the expansion comes out. If not, then
I have a lot of useless badges.
lcpltom
Thats really dependent on other players letting you slime your way
through raids and heroics. Especially so for raids, as if you're
screwing up and getting other players killed, you're more likely to be
replaced with someone who can handle the job. In PvP, there is no
group leader to kick you from the BG. If you're just showing up for
the honor and not actually attempting to help the team, there is no
one to really stop you. And provided you can find someone else who
doesn't actually want to do the work, getting a partner to lose 10
arena games a week shouldn't be too difficult either.
lcpltom
Consider yourself lucky, you could be a blood elf and be stuck with
one of those rainbow colored hawkstriders.
Rob Wynne
I wish you could get cross-faction mounts via PvP. It would make sense,
spoils of war and stuff.
steve.kaye
I have a blood elf and I do consider myself lucky that I can have one
of those great looking mounts. It's actually my favourite standard
mount*. My rough order of preference for standard mounts is:
Hawkstrider, Saber, Kodo, Raptor, Horse, Wolf, Mechanostrider, Silly
Elephant Thing.
I think that the Belf Paladin mounts would probably come ahead of the
Kodo or maybe even the Saber and the Warlock mounts would come ahead
of the Kodo. The Raptor almost lost a position due to the bumpy
ride.
steve.kaye
* standard mount being defined as the race specific mounts
ave
> through raids and heroics.
Not really. You can 'pull your own weight' and still not be a 'skilled'
player. My point isn't that people can just join 24 other people, not do
anything, and still get gear.
My point is that to do well in PvE you don't need skill, you need the four
things I listed in my other post. And none of those things equate to skill
nor leaching from a raid.
ave
Toumar Kaldrenon
> > Thats really dependent on other players letting you slime your way
> > through raids and heroics.
>
> Not really. You can 'pull your own weight' and still not be a 'skilled'
> player. My point isn't that people can just join 24 other people, not do
> anything, and still get gear.
This is true, and a perfectly valid point. However, I would like to
point out two components to this issue that I think explain why many
PvE players say that their gear requires more skill to acquire than
PvP players.
- While it is entirely true that raids do not require all 10 or 25 of
the players in a group to do their part, to be skilled at their class,
or to try hard, it is also equally true that if you have 10 or 25
people who are ALL idiots and do nothing right, you will NOT succeed
in a raid. A 25 man can succeed with maybe as many as five hangers on
- but that just proves that there are 20 people who DO have the
necessary skill and understanding of what to do. I'm not saying that
doing one's part in raiding is /difficult/, per se, but it is a skill
nonetheless and you will fail without it.
- This notion is not true for PvP, with the exception of Arena items
that have rating requirements. If I chose, I could form an arena team,
queue up, and sit stock still while the opposing team wiped the floor
with me, 10+ times a week every week...and eventually be in full
Season 3 gear.
Raiding and PvP both require skill in order to get the best. PvP does
NOT require skill to get things that are almost as good as the best.
ave
> people who are ALL idiots and do nothing right, you will NOT succeed
> in a raid. A 25 man can succeed with maybe as many as five hangers on
I dont agree with this, you could take 25 people who are ALL idiots and
clear a raid instance or down a boss. If my original points are met.
Sure, you wouldn't down each boss on the first try, or the second, or the
third.... But you would down him eventually even if it took weeks. It just
needs the time investment for them to learn the encounter.
> Raiding and PvP both require skill in order to get the best. PvP does
> NOT require skill to get things that are almost as good as the best.
Not sure if I'm being misinterpretted.
I'm not suggesting pvp gear takes 'skill' either :)
> If I chose, I could form an arena team,
> queue up, and sit stock still while the opposing team wiped the floor
> with me, 10+ times a week every week...and eventually be in full
> Season 3 gear.
You couldn't, at least you couldn't get the s3 weapons and shoulders. But
I'm not saying this makes pvp players any more skilled than pve one's
either. There are skilled players in both pve and pvp, but skill isn't
needed to progress in either.
I was originally just responding to the initial comment that PvE gear takes
'skill' to get. I merely trying to point out that it doesn't, really. Not
even trying to compare pvp gear or players.
ave
Toumar Kaldrenon
> > it is also equally true that if you have 10 or 25
> > people who are ALL idiots and do nothing right, you will NOT succeed
> > in a raid. A 25 man can succeed with maybe as many as five hangers on
>
> I dont agree with this, you could take 25 people who are ALL idiots and
> clear a raid instance or down a boss. If my original points are met.
I was working under the definition of idiot as "Not knowing or doing
what they are supposed to and not having the presence of mind to fix
it when it breaks", in which case it -is- impossible to down raid
bosses with idiots because they are, under that working definition,
doing it wrong, and raid bosses don't die when you do it wrong.
I tend to ignore the out-of-game intelligence and personalities of
most of the people I raid with. They're irrelevant to me. But if they
are idiots /in the context of raiding/, the raid will suffer. I have
seen it happen enough time to know that it's true.
If you were talking about idiots in a more general sense, then I most
certainly agree with you. People who are largely stupid, rude,
inattentive, or otherwise nuisances in other contexts can still
contribute passingly well to a raid if they know what is expected of
them and do it. And one or two screw-ups, either do to idiocy,
ignorance, or accident, will not inherently ruin a raid. But people
who are idiots /about raiding/ can only exist in small quantity for a
raid to succeed.
> I was originally just responding to the initial comment that PvE gear takes
> 'skill' to get. I merely trying to point out that it doesn't, really. Not
> even trying to compare pvp gear or players.
My apologies for misinterpreting. I have had/seen a large number of
discussions of this nature in which avid PvPers get all huffy about
the mechanics of things, and it's an argument I'm just very used to
spewing out to folks, I guess. Didn't mean to jump down your throat or
argue my side on an issue you didn't even raise. ^^;
Mark (newsgroups)
I note the poor ram my dwarf rides around on doesn't even get a
mention :(
Toumar Kaldrenon
wrote:
> I note the poor ram my dwarf rides around on doesn't even get a
> mention :(
That's not a nice thing to call a female dwarf!
PhilHibbs
> PvE progression (and gearing) requires only a few things:
>
> 1) A regular raid group (duh)
> 2) Time investment to learn the encounters.
> 3) Appropriate gearing (including enchanting + gemming).
> 4) Ability to read
Items 2,3,4 are what most people mean when they say "skill". The
ability to follow instructions, work as a team, balance your dps/
healing/threat, etc. - and you aren't going to get 1) easily if you
don't have the other three. And if you have all 4 in your list, but
are ham-fisted or slow or panicky when it comes to the pull, then they
aren't going to do you much good.
Hoofu, 70 tauren shaman, Argent Dawn (EU)
Frank E
wrote:
>On Jul 22, 6:37 am, "ave" <a...@nomailplease.com> wrote:
>> > Because it actually takes skill to get, PvE gear tends to attracts the
>> > elitist jerk players, who say their gear is better simply because
>> > they actually earned it.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but PvE gear does not need 'skill' to get.
>>
>> ave
>
>Thats really dependent on other players letting you slime your way
>through raids and heroics. Especially so for raids, as if you're
>screwing up and getting other players killed, you're more likely to be
>replaced with someone who can handle the job.
Given my somewhat limited raiding experience in WoW, the only 'skill'
that the majority of a raid force needs is the ability to follow
directions. You do need a few good people to organize things, parse
logs to figure out what went wrong, tell people what to do, etc.
>In PvP, there is no
>group leader to kick you from the BG. If you're just showing up for
>the honor and not actually attempting to help the team, there is no
>one to really stop you.
Unfortunately, true. Although there's always a chance of getting all
of your items stripped if you get caught by Blizzard. I don't think
the odds of that happening are high enough though.
> And provided you can find someone else who
>doesn't actually want to do the work, getting a partner to lose 10
>arena games a week shouldn't be too difficult either.
You don't even need anyone else, nothing prevents you from forming a
team and queing up solo. Still, it takes a long time to get items if
all you're doing is loosing in 2v2, even if you're buying a new team
every week to keep the points up.
It's a tough balancing act for Blizzard. In PvE, you can reward the
good/dedicated players with better gear without screwing things up.
In PvP, if more skill equals better gear, you make it that much easier
for the top players to beat up on everyone else which is
counterproductive.
Rgds, Frank
Frank E
<kald...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Raiding and PvP both require skill in order to get the best. PvP does
>NOT require skill to get things that are almost as good as the best.
Neither does Raiding. All I need is a phat bank account to get the
best gear in both. There are people selling arena ratings and there
are raid guilds selling spots for bosses that they have on farm
status. Either way, all it takes is gold to get the best PvP or PvE
gear.
Rgds, Frank
Marcel
wrote:
Depends on your definition of skill.
Skill : the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude,
etc., to do something well
ave
I dont think it does really. :)
ave
Marcel
wrote:
>> it is also equally true that if you have 10 or 25
>> people who are ALL idiots and do nothing right, you will NOT succeed
>> in a raid. A 25 man can succeed with maybe as many as five hangers on
>
>I dont agree with this, you could take 25 people who are ALL idiots and
>clear a raid instance or down a boss. If my original points are met.
>
Your original points basically describe skill.
Regarding the 25 idiots, been there, done that and they WON'T clear a
whole raid instance.
They might kill some bosses but that's about it.
Some time ago I was a maintank in a small guild farming Kara with one
raid group.
Then they decided to create a second raidgroup.
The second raidgroup had about 6 decent players and 4 so called
idiots.
Those 4 idiots ruined each and every try on Wiz of Oz and Shade of
Aran for more then 2 months !!
After those 2 months the whole things collapsed.
>Sure, you wouldn't down each boss on the first try, or the second, or the
>third.... But you would down him eventually even if it took weeks. It just
>needs the time investment for them to learn the encounter.
>
No you won't since the guild/raidgroup will fall apart before you
finally down that certain boss.
If it's a couple of idiots causing wipes over and over again on trash
and/or on the same boss the whole thing will collapse eventually.
If it takes to long on a certain encounter the decent/good people will
get upset and leave after which you have to start all over again.
>> Raiding and PvP both require skill in order to get the best. PvP does
>> NOT require skill to get things that are almost as good as the best.
>
>Not sure if I'm being misinterpretted.
>
Depends on your definition of skill ;-)
>I'm not suggesting pvp gear takes 'skill' either :)
>
>> If I chose, I could form an arena team,
>> queue up, and sit stock still while the opposing team wiped the floor
>> with me, 10+ times a week every week...and eventually be in full
>> Season 3 gear.
>
>You couldn't, at least you couldn't get the s3 weapons and shoulders. But
>I'm not saying this makes pvp players any more skilled than pve one's
>either. There are skilled players in both pve and pvp, but skill isn't
>needed to progress in either.
>
Getting more and more curious about your definition of skill.
According to mine you definitely need it to progress in pve.
>I was originally just responding to the initial comment that PvE gear takes
>'skill' to get. I merely trying to point out that it doesn't, really. Not
>even trying to compare pvp gear or players.
>
Marcel
wrote:
Besides a phat bank account one DOES need at least some kind of skill
to listen and follow instructions.
Without those skills on even one player the most experienced raiding
group will fail on certain boss fights.
No matter how experienced a raid group is, someone moving during flame
wreath at Aran will wipe the raid anyway.
Even with loads of gold you still need a certain amount of skill to
not cause wipes.
Marcel
wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:47:53 -0700 (PDT), lcpltom <lcp...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Jul 22, 6:37 am, "ave" <a...@nomailplease.com> wrote:
>>> > Because it actually takes skill to get, PvE gear tends to attracts the
>>> > elitist jerk players, who say their gear is better simply because
>>> > they actually earned it.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, but PvE gear does not need 'skill' to get.
>>>
>>> ave
>>
>>Thats really dependent on other players letting you slime your way
>>through raids and heroics. Especially so for raids, as if you're
>>screwing up and getting other players killed, you're more likely to be
>>replaced with someone who can handle the job.
>
>Given my somewhat limited raiding experience in WoW, the only 'skill'
>that the majority of a raid force needs is the ability to follow
>directions. You do need a few good people to organize things, parse
>logs to figure out what went wrong, tell people what to do, etc.
>
And to be able to do something useful with the information given one
needs a certain amount of skill.
Marcel
wrote:
>> Depends on your definition of skill.
>
>I dont think it does really. :)
>
Ofcourse you don't since you're totally wrong according to the
official definition ;-)
John Gordon
> Besides a phat bank account one DOES need at least some kind of skill
> to listen and follow instructions.
> Without those skills on even one player the most experienced raiding
> group will fail on certain boss fights.
Not really. If a guild is selling raid loot they are certainly capable
of 24-manning the bosses. So on boss fights they send the buyer in first,
buyer gets instantly killed, then the remaining 24 people kill the boss.
--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"
Marcel
<gor...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <5u6c84htitshjieik...@4ax.com> Marcel <mar...@marcel.invalid> writes:
>
>> Besides a phat bank account one DOES need at least some kind of skill
>> to listen and follow instructions.
>> Without those skills on even one player the most experienced raiding
>> group will fail on certain boss fights.
>
>Not really. If a guild is selling raid loot they are certainly capable
>of 24-manning the bosses. So on boss fights they send the buyer in first,
>buyer gets instantly killed, then the remaining 24 people kill the boss.
>
Hmm, didn't think about that one to be honest :-)
Although the buyer still needs 2 skills for it to work.
1) The ability to listen and follow orders (go in first)
2) The ability to NOT release his spirit during the fight
;-)
lcpltom
But by playing the same encounter, week after week after week, failing
continually, the only way to eventually succeed is to learn from the
failures and change the tactic. Its learning how to play that
demonstrates skill. Sure, 25 idiots might be slow to learn the
encounter, but once they learn it and can repeat the success, they've
shown they're just as skillful as another raid who learned the
encounter in a week.
Even if an encounter is a simple tank and spank fight, a group of 10
or 25 idiots still needs to have an idea of what they are doing.
Issues such as aggro creep up that without learning to control and
deal with it, you don't have a chance.
Carol J
traditional mount. I love the way it seems to "slide" around like on ice
when you turn though...too cute:-) I have the hawkstrider for my blood elf
rogue...and the undead rogue and BE both has the frostwolf mounts. Now I'm
working on a orc warrior who will have the wolf, I think that's right and I
have a lvl 6 troll rogue who will have the raptor. My sons call my
hawkstrider a "meal on wheels" but I just tell them they're jealous......lol
Carol J
"steve.kaye" <nos...@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2ab4dcde-ceb1-4572...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Catriona R
Gotta agree, only mount that really looks better in epic form is the
undead horse... otherwise they're much the same level of appearance
(ram, raptor) or much worse (horse, argh...) Doesn't stop me getting
the epic mount as soon as I can though, the speed makes a huge
difference!
ald
Shugar) wrote:
>I think it was "ave" <a...@nomailplease.com> that wrote something
>like...
>
>>> Because it actually takes skill to get, PvE gear tends to attracts the
>>> elitist jerk players, who say their gear is better simply because
>>> they actually earned it.
>>
>>I'm sorry, but PvE gear does not need 'skill' to get.
>>
>>ave
>
>Basically true, I'd agree. Though as I understand it, it's harder to
>get PvE gear if you don't have any skill than it is to get PvP gear
>without skill. Especially once you get to the higher end stuff.
>Season 2 gear is available by running Battlegrounds and only
>pretending to do something I believe. Equivalent item level PvE items
>require a SerpentShrine Cavern run and even then, most of the SSC
>items are of a lower item level than season 2.
Ok, it may be *possible* to get PvP epics without doing anything, but
it sure isn't quick. Even one person afking in a WSG match can give
the other side a 3-0 victory, and everyone on the losing side comes
out of it with virtually no honor, and of course only one token. And
if you're obviously afking in a match that I'm in, I'm going to report
you and, if it keeps up, ask everyone else to report you, so you
either leave or end up with *no* honor.
AB and EotS are a *little* better, a really good team can still win
(and get good honor) with one afker, maybe even two, but again I'm
going to do my best to get you out of there if you're obvious about
afking. And of course AV, at least in our battle group, is pretty much
on farm status, we can usually win unless it's AV weekend, when it
seems like at least half the team has no clue what to do ;-/
>If you can get 24 other people to take you on a SSC run and then give
>you the gear that drops even though you've got no skill and died every
>pull without doing hardly anything, then while it's not game skill,
>it's certainly *some* kind of skill. ; )
>
>Ashen Shugar
Heh, sounds like what I'm trying to do in Kara, *especially* the last
couple weeks where I've been pushed into the OT role ;-)
For those of you who missed it the last time we delved deeply into
this subject, my main, Huntard, is decked out almost exclusively in
"welfare epics"
(http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Llane&n=Sisald). This
isn't really because that's what she *wants* to have, but because it's
the best gear available to her. Because of my work schedule, my
playing time is pretty much incompatible with everyone else's, from
whenever I finish up reading in here (note time of post, although I
admit I'm usually playing by now, but not a whole lot earlier) until
at latest 1 p.m., with at least a *few* hours in there for sleeping
;-) Fortunately, my guild runs the first half of Kara on one of my
days off, so I'm in that and willing to go as long as possible, but
the second half is always on days that I work (the next 4 days). So
I've seen exactly 2 Prince fights, one with one of our allied guilds
before we started running Kara regularly, and one Guild one 3 weeks
ago, I think, where I managed to be on and waiting when someone had to
drop, both called after one wipe. Curator? Seen twice also, I think,
but him at least we managed to beat at least once ;-) Understand, I'm
at least marginally familiar with pretty much all the bosses in there,
either from reading about them and/or from listening in on Vent while
the group is told about them, but getting anything from there is
apparently not going to happen ;-( (Ok, a quick glance at the armory
page I linked with a dodgy connection shows that I *did* pick up that
necklace from Kara, but note please that that and the Eye of the
Stalker are the only items from Kara or a heroic). Badge loot is
pretty much out for the same reasons, last I checked she had
30-something badges, I just don't see her getting enough for the stuff
that's an upgrade for her before WotLK comes out. And the fact that
I've had to fill the OT role the last couple Kara first-half runs
(Humewarsis in the same guild in the link above, if you want to see a
profile of a truly wrong-specced, undergeared OT who has no business
in being in Heroics, not to mention Kara) hasn't helped any ;-/
Understand, please, that I'm *not* complaining, just stating things
the way I see them. Sis's gear and honor came *only* from running the
PvP daily when it's her turn to play, well, at least after getting to
Exalted with AV pre-BC, but that didn't count toward her current
honor, right? I love the game, and my Guild, and wouldn't do without
either of them, but I just don't see another way to gear up without
the PvP rewards.
Just one more point in this long ramble, then I'll shut up ;-) Our
Guild Master is almost violently anti-PvP, an attitude I understand
and shared for a long time stemming from our days in D2. When I
bragged about the S1 bow, and more recently about the S2 one, she
scoffed at them, the slow speed of the S1 one being her main point and
the lack of agi on the S2 one. So of course, when she picked up 2
upgrades recently (the bow from the first half of Kara the latest one)
I *had* to point out that they didn't have any agi either ;-) She
finally admitted, about 2 days later, that the S2 one was a little
better than the one she'd gotten, not that she's going to go and get
it or anything ;-)
ald
reply via email to ald_007_1999 at yahoo dot com
ald
wrote:
>On Jul 22, 6:37 am, "ave" <a...@nomailplease.com> wrote:
>> > Because it actually takes skill to get, PvE gear tends to attracts the
>> > elitist jerk players, who say their gear is better simply because
>> > they actually earned it.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but PvE gear does not need 'skill' to get.
>>
>> ave
>
>Thats really dependent on other players letting you slime your way
>through raids and heroics. Especially so for raids, as if you're
>screwing up and getting other players killed, you're more likely to be
>replaced with someone who can handle the job. In PvP, there is no
>group leader to kick you from the BG. If you're just showing up for
>the honor and not actually attempting to help the team, there is no
>one to really stop you.
Not entirely true any more. Again, if you're too obvious about it, and
I'm in the battle, I'm going to report you, and if you still don't
join in the battle, I'm going to ask everyone else to report you. I'm
sorry (*not*!), but if I'm in a BG it's for the win, since it's the
daily, and if you're not helping I'm going to do everything in my
power to get you out of there, or at the very least make sure you
don't get any reward for it, and it works more often than not.
Shammy
CR> (horse, argh...)
Lol this is the obvious example why some things just shouldnt be discussed.
For me the epic horse is the nicest alliance mount. My only pvp mount is a
horse and on my druid that had an epic cat before, actually thinking about
it the epic horse is by far the best looking ally mount for me. And I'd like
to note I dont like non epic horses much.
steve.kaye
wrote:
Oops, sorry. I had a nagging feeling in my mind that I'd missed
one. :) They're between Wolf and Mechanostrider.
steve.kaye
Urbin
I don't recall all four point you mentioned, but one was "ability to read" I
assume you listed this meaning that anyone who can read could read up on the
tactic guides for each boss and then use these to kill the boss.
IMO "ability to read" is not enough. What you need is the ability to read
such a guide, understand it, transfer that information into game play and be
able to pull it off. For me, this is skill.
Obviously "skill" is something different from you.
It seems that for you "skill" is something that is only needed in PvP. Is my
assumption right? Maybe you could elaborate a little what exactly you
understand as "skill"...
Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (70), Dwarven Hunter | Surana (33), Draenei Mage
Mymule (70), Gnomish Warlock | Juran (33), Nightelven Druid
Sunh (70), Nightelven Priest | Gera (26), Human Paladin
ave
> official definition ;-)
The 'official definition' according to people who don't understand skill,
maybe.
ave
ave
I'm not sure how you figure that? If my list defined skill then everyone
playing wow would be skillful at the game, as I haven't met anyone in game
that didn't meet my criteria for progressing in pve. Even the morons :)
> Regarding the 25 idiots, been there, done that and they WON'T clear a
> whole raid instance.
They will eventually, though it'd take a long time.
> Those 4 idiots ruined each and every try on Wiz of Oz and Shade of
> Aran for more then 2 months !!
> After those 2 months the whole things collapsed.
And if they'd continued on Wiz of Oz for the next year, do you think they
would have completed it eventually? I would say more than likely, and they
would still be crap at the game.
> No you won't since the guild/raidgroup will fall apart before you
> finally down that certain boss.
That goes against my second point:
2) Time investment to learn the encounters.
If the raid breaks up then no they wont progress. Ofcourse, in the
real-world a raid would break up if no progress is made eventually. But if
it does or not, it's hardly an example of "skill".
> Getting more and more curious about your definition of skill.
> According to mine you definitely need it to progress in pve.
Skill will affect the speed of progression, but not a requirement for
progression imho. I have been in too many raid groups that consisted of
'idiots' and people with no skill (imho) but that had decent progress, to
think pve progress requires skill.
ave
ave
> to listen and follow instructions.
Just about everyone in the world can do that (disregarding people with
certain disabilities etc). Even the noob night-elf-male legolas can do that.
He wouldn't be able to install the game if he couldn't.
> No matter how experienced a raid group is, someone moving during flame
> wreath at Aran will wipe the raid anyway.
And not moving during the flame wreath demonstrates 'skill'? okay...
> Even with loads of gold you still need a certain amount of skill to
> not cause wipes.
From what you've written, rather than skill it just sounds like you need to
be human :)
ave
ave
> my
> assumption right? Maybe you could elaborate a little what exactly you
> understand as "skill"...
No.
Sure I pvp a lot and whilst I'd like to think I have some 'skill' at the
game, I must ultimately conclude that there are people far more skillful
than me in both the pve and pvp parts of the game. And 'skill' is certainly
not exclusive to pvp.
Being told 'stand in the green beam' or 'dont move during flame wreath' and
doing it... that isn't skill. That's just doing as you're told, figuring out
how to maximise your dps without drawing aggro takes some amount of class
skill.
A tauren druid feral tank noticing an imminent death, switching from bear,
war stomping, getting a cyclone + heal in and saving the group from a wipe.
Takes some amount of skill.
"Doing as you're told" is not skill... that's just not being stupid :o
ave
Marcel
wrote:
>> Your original points basically describe skill.
>
>I'm not sure how you figure that?
>
Check the definition of skill in a dictionary.
===
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to
do something well
===
Both knowledge and practice are mentioned almost literally in your
points.
>If my list defined skill then everyone
>playing wow would be skillful at the game, as I haven't met anyone in game
>that didn't meet my criteria for progressing in pve. Even the morons :)
>
I've met more then enough morons who will never make real progress in
pve.
Pre TBC with 40 men raids it was easier for the morons, these days
raids are much harder if you have one or more morons (if not
impossible)
>> Regarding the 25 idiots, been there, done that and they WON'T clear a
>> whole raid instance.
>
>They will eventually, though it'd take a long time.
>
Long as in years ?
Long as in 40 lvl 70's clearing MC ?
>> Those 4 idiots ruined each and every try on Wiz of Oz and Shade of
>> Aran for more then 2 months !!
>> After those 2 months the whole things collapsed.
>
>And if they'd continued on Wiz of Oz for the next year, do you think they
>would have completed it eventually? I would say more than likely, and they
>would still be crap at the game.
>
Nope, those specific idiots will never finish Wiz of Oz as long as
they're lvl 70.
At lvl 70+ they might.
>> No you won't since the guild/raidgroup will fall apart before you
>> finally down that certain boss.
>
>That goes against my second point:
>
>2) Time investment to learn the encounters.
>
If it takes more then two months (raiding 3 nights a week !!) trying
to kill Shade of Aran and each and every night at least one person
walks during flame wreath I think it's safe to say those kind of
people will 'never' learn.
And if during those two months several people do nothing about their
gear (no gems, no enchants, bring no food) I think it's safe to say
those won't make real progress in pve.
Marcel
wrote:
>> Besides a phat bank account one DOES need at least some kind of skill
>> to listen and follow instructions.
>
>Just about everyone in the world can do that (disregarding people with
>certain disabilities etc). Even the noob night-elf-male legolas can do that.
>He wouldn't be able to install the game if he couldn't.
>
I've been a GM for a while, been both warrior and rogue classleader
and can tell from experience you're wrong.
I've seen more than enough people lacking the skill of listening and
following instructions and they had no disabilities at all.
Like I told in my other posting, I've seen people stuck at Shade of
Aran for more then 2 months because a few people just kept on moving
during flame wreath.
Those people just aren't able to listen and/or follow instructions for
whatever reason.
>> No matter how experienced a raid group is, someone moving during flame
>> wreath at Aran will wipe the raid anyway.
>
>And not moving during the flame wreath demonstrates 'skill'? okay...
>
The skill to : listen, follow instructions, understand the fight,
react to something happening.
Toumar Kaldrenon
> A tauren druid feral tank noticing an imminent death, switching from bear,
> war stomping, getting a cyclone + heal in and saving the group from a wipe.
> Takes some amount of skill.
Been there, done that.
> "Doing as you're told" is not skill... that's just not being stupid :o
True. However, someone has to do the telling, and in order for what
people do when they're told to work, the person in charge has to take
care to think, plan, and organize the situation. More often than not
this is more than one person's responsibility. While maybe as much as
90% of the req's PvE/raiding are common sense and a basic knowledge of
your class/role, If you're lacking the 10% that constitutes getting
the group to work together, you WILL fail. Period.
I'm not trying to exaggerate the difficulty of raiding. It's really
quite easy to progress in raiding if you have people who do the four
things you initially listed. However, easy or no, those things ARE
skills (even the ability to read is considered a skill), and without
them a raid will not progress.
There is an important semantic difference between saying "It takes
skill to succeed in raids" and saying that "Raids are difficult." The
former is true, plain and simple, no room for debate. The latter much
less so.
Marcel
wrote:
Yep, you're totally right.
Those people that created dictionaries and such all have it wrong.
Your definition is much better...........
Catriona R
Hehe the epic horse is the 2nd worst alliance mount to me (the
mechachicken being the worst, but then I think the feathered chicken
is the worst horde one, guess birds aren't my thing!), although I
don't like tigers much either - the ZG one is awesome but all the
others are so bland. Elekks are a bit goofy but nice enough, and rams
while nothing special (the non-epics are much nicer) are by far the
best of a very bad bunch - wtb horde mounts on alliance ;-)
ald
IMNSHO, the epic Palomino *used* to be the nicest alliance mount,
certainly the nicest looking. Then, a few months before I got my first
Human to 60, apparently Blizz felt they had to cover this gorgeous
creature in armor, so that you can't see how beautiful it is ;-/
steve.kaye
> On Jul 23, 5:28 am, "ave" <a...@nomailplease.com> wrote:
>
> > A tauren druid feral tank noticing an imminent death, switching from bear,
> > war stomping, getting a cyclone + heal in and saving the group from a wipe.
> > Takes some amount of skill.
>
> Been there, done that.
>
> > "Doing as you're told" is not skill... that's just not being stupid :o
>
> True. However, someone has to do the telling, and in order for what
> people do when they're told to work, the person in charge has to take
> care to think, plan, and organize the situation. More often than not
> this is more than one person's responsibility. While maybe as much as
> 90% of the req's PvE/raiding are common sense and a basic knowledge of
> your class/role, If you're lacking the 10% that constitutes getting
> the group to work together, you WILL fail. Period.
I'd put much more than 10% weight on the ability of the raid leader to
lead for the raid to succeed.
> I'm not trying to exaggerate the difficulty of raiding. It's really
> quite easy to progress in raiding if you have people who do the four
> things you initially listed. However, easy or no, those things ARE
> skills (even the ability to read is considered a skill), and without
> them a raid will not progress.
It's a skill but it's not an in-game skill. When ave referrs to skill
I think that he referrs to skill at playing the game - not general
skills such as the ability to read and press buttons.
I think that what he is getting at is that your average player can
raid providing that they can understand and follow the instructions of
the raid leader. The skilled players are the ones that can figure out
why it's going wrong and fix it themselves.
> There is an important semantic difference between saying "It takes
> skill to succeed in raids" and saying that "Raids are difficult." The
> former is true, plain and simple, no room for debate. The latter much
> less so.
Well, apparently, the former does have room for debate as we are
debating it. :P
steve.kaye
ave
> do something well
> ===
> Both knowledge and practice are mentioned almost literally in your
> points.
Yes, but they themselves are not "skill" they are what skill comes from.
Just because you practice and have knowledge doesn't mean you have skill.
You need the ability to apply them at all times, simply downing a boss
doesn't make you skillful. It just means you know what to do and that, in
itself, is not skill (perhaps skill against that particular boss, but not
skill in a general sense of ability).
> Pre TBC with 40 men raids it was easier for the morons, these days
> raids are much harder if you have one or more morons (if not
> impossible)
Even the top guilds I know on my server now have some morons, gear is more a
requirement than skill for pve progression.
> Long as in years ?
> Long as in 40 lvl 70's clearing MC ?
No, just time investment, not long as "wait till expansion".
> Nope, those specific idiots will never finish Wiz of Oz as long as
> they're lvl 70.
> At lvl 70+ they might.
Will just have to disagree then :)
> If it takes more then two months (raiding 3 nights a week !!) trying
> to kill Shade of Aran and each and every night at least one person
> walks during flame wreath I think it's safe to say those kind of
> people will 'never' learn.
Not safe at all, they will learn eventually unless they're handicapped in
some way (and that's not a shot at handicapped people).
> And if during those two months several people do nothing about their
> gear (no gems, no enchants, bring no food) I think it's safe to say
> those won't make real progress in pve.
Gear is a huge factor in progression, I'm not saying a bunch of morons in
greens will make progression. But gearing up is not an example of skill
either.
Hell, I have a real-life friend who's playing WoW. She created a rogue
because she like's my rogue, she "tries" to pvp because she used to watch me
pvp. She's in a guild who's recently formed and clearing kara. She is the
most awful rogue I have ever seen in my life and I even tell her that. I
have to tell her what build to use, what gear to get, what abilities to use.
I do instances with her now and then and tell her what she's doing wrong.
She *still* has problems walking up curved stairs in the game, she is that
bad. And her guild are happy with their progression and the group they're
going with. If she tried to join my raid group she would be removed after
the first boss because she is that bad. (And, if she ever reads this, I luv
ya really! But you know you suck). Most awful rogue I've ever seen, but
she's progressing fine.
ave
ave
> and can tell from experience you're wrong.
No point throwing that around, I've been GM of my guild for over 2 years and
rogue class leader in (what used to be) one of the top raid groups on my
server. And I'm not wrong ;p
> I've seen more than enough people lacking the skill of listening and
> following instructions and they had no disabilities at all.
All you've seen are people you couldn't put up with for long enough for them
to do as they're told.
> Like I told in my other posting, I've seen people stuck at Shade of
> Aran for more then 2 months because a few people just kept on moving
> during flame wreath.
Then swear at them over vent, scream over vent when wreaths go up "DONT
F******* MOVE OR I'LL KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY" (in jest, of course). Yes,
you (or someone) probably do this, you just need to do it for long enough
for them to understand.
Way back when I first ever started raiding (MC!) I joined a fairly new raid
group, they were complaining to a friend of mine they couldn't find decent
rogues, just people who turned up for epics. My guild friend pointed them
towards me, as he knew I wanted to raid. The first issues the group faced
were people not logging on until 30 mins after the raid was supposed to
start. To fix this, the raid leader made a new rule... If you're not outside
the MC instance, repaired and ready to go at least 10 minutes before the
raid starts you DO NOT raid for the entire rest of the week. If that leaves
not enough people, then the raid will be cancelled. We had a week or so
without raids, then lo and behold, suddenly everyone was turning up on time.
She was the greatest raid leader I've ever played with tbh, she swore at
people when they weren't listening, she would abandon raids if people were
being "too stupid". And she built what was, for over a year, one of the best
raid groups on the server. For proper progression, the raid leader needs to
be harsh or people don't listen. And with the morons, you just need to be
harsh enough for long enough and they will listen. They'll still be morons
though ;o
> Those people just aren't able to listen and/or follow instructions for
> whatever reason.
They will, eventually, unless they're doing it on purpose.
> The skill to : listen, follow instructions, understand the fight,
> react to something happening.
Everyone in the world has the ability to listen and follow instructions,
understanding a fight is not "skill" (again, perhaps skill at that
particular fight, but not skill in the general sense of ability). Sure, to
varying degrees of "skill" in that particular area of standard human
ability, but that isn't "skill" at the game of WoW.
React to something happening? Something unexpected? Perhaps that is part of
my definition of skill, but it's also not needed to down a boss :)
ave
ave
> people do when they're told to work
Yes, hmm. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well enough at this part. 25
morons entering SSC will probably never complete SSC. Someone needs to be
there who knows what they're doing, do they need to be skillful? hmmm, not
sure in terms of wow, but they need to understand what's going to happen in
the encounters and how to respond to them.
But the 'raid leader' or even just whoever's in charge, has a huge impact on
a groups progression.
> things you initially listed. However, easy or no, those things ARE
> skills (even the ability to read is considered a skill), and without
> them a raid will not progress.
Of course, but these are not "WoW" skills. These are everyday skills
everyone has (to a smaller or larger extent).
> There is an important semantic difference between saying "It takes
> skill to succeed in raids" and saying that "Raids are difficult." The
> former is true, plain and simple, no room for debate. The latter much
> less so.
The former is only true if we are not talking about "skill" in terms of WoW
playing ability.
ave
ave
Gods I was begining to think I was insane, at least someone understands what
I'm trying to say. Albiet, I'm not saying it very well ;s
Thanks,
ave
ave
> Those people that created dictionaries and such all have it wrong.
> Your definition is much better...........
Not really, you're just not understanding the definition correctly, is what
I'm saying.
ave
ave
> what I'm saying.
Minor change, I think I used the wrong word. Rather than "understanding" I
think I should have used "interpreting" instead. Sorry.
ave
Ashen Shugar
like...
>> the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to
>> do something well
>> ===
>> Both knowledge and practice are mentioned almost literally in your
>> points.
>
>Yes, but they themselves are not "skill" they are what skill comes from.
>Just because you practice and have knowledge doesn't mean you have skill.
>You need the ability to apply them at all times, simply downing a boss
>doesn't make you skillful. It just means you know what to do and that, in
>itself, is not skill (perhaps skill against that particular boss, but not
>skill in a general sense of ability).
So you're basically saying you need the 'aptitude' part of skill
before you actually have skill?
I can agree with that. : )
>> Pre TBC with 40 men raids it was easier for the morons, these days
>> raids are much harder if you have one or more morons (if not
>> impossible)
>
>Even the top guilds I know on my server now have some morons, gear is more a
>requirement than skill for pve progression.
For sure. A higher level of gear can cover for a lower level of skill
and vice versa to a degree.
>> Long as in years ?
>> Long as in 40 lvl 70's clearing MC ?
>
>No, just time investment, not long as "wait till expansion".
>
>> Nope, those specific idiots will never finish Wiz of Oz as long as
>> they're lvl 70.
>> At lvl 70+ they might.
>
>Will just have to disagree then :)
A full 10 of his specific idiots probably never will be able to
_consistently_ finish Wiz of Oz and such encounters. They may get
lucky every now and then, when everything goes perfectly their way.
And if they'd previously had 8 or 9 skillful people drag em through
places to gear em up sufficiently. Because I think you'd have to have
a pretty well geared tank to be able to survive and successfully tank
in Berserker stance (coz it does more damage and damage is good
right?!) and a similarly well geared healer to be able to keep them up
while using the most inefficient heals because they make cool effects.
(ooooh, shiny!)
; )
>> If it takes more then two months (raiding 3 nights a week !!) trying
>> to kill Shade of Aran and each and every night at least one person
>> walks during flame wreath I think it's safe to say those kind of
>> people will 'never' learn.
>
>Not safe at all, they will learn eventually unless they're handicapped in
>some way (and that's not a shot at handicapped people).
I think you're overly optimistic in your opinion of the human race.
; )
>> And if during those two months several people do nothing about their
>> gear (no gems, no enchants, bring no food) I think it's safe to say
>> those won't make real progress in pve.
>
>Gear is a huge factor in progression, I'm not saying a bunch of morons in
>greens will make progression. But gearing up is not an example of skill
>either.
>
>Hell, I have a real-life friend who's playing WoW. She created a rogue
>because she like's my rogue, she "tries" to pvp because she used to watch me
>pvp. She's in a guild who's recently formed and clearing kara. She is the
>most awful rogue I have ever seen in my life and I even tell her that. I
>have to tell her what build to use, what gear to get, what abilities to use.
>I do instances with her now and then and tell her what she's doing wrong.
>
>She *still* has problems walking up curved stairs in the game, she is that
>bad. And her guild are happy with their progression and the group they're
>going with. If she tried to join my raid group she would be removed after
>the first boss because she is that bad. (And, if she ever reads this, I luv
>ya really! But you know you suck). Most awful rogue I've ever seen, but
>she's progressing fine.
>
>ave
Well, I'm pretty sure *I've* never said that you can't gear up in PvE
while having no skill what so ever, just that from all I've heard,
it's got to be harder than getting the PvP welfare epics.
Sure, your friend has found 9 other people that will put up with her
less than skillful abilities and is gearing up that way. But can
*everyone* get themselves into such a situation? Easier or at least
as easily as they can enter Battlegrounds and run around like a
headless chook giving the other side essentially free kills?
As I see it, it's harder to get PvE gear equivalent in ilevel (and
quite likely general effect) to what can be gotten in PvP simply
because the equivalent PvE gear requires finding 4 or 9 or 24 other
people willing to put up with you long enough for you to get the gear.
Not impossible, just easier than entering AV to leech honor from the
PvP'ers that know what they're doing and will get the whole team
honor, and entering the other battle grounds and doing anything/enough
that will let you get the single mark for losing that you'll need to
accumulate to buy stuff with.
Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
Trooper
catrion...@totalise.co.uk says...
I love my Elekk, for the simple reason I can ride through deeper puddles
without getting knocked off than I can on my horse or raptor. :)
T.
steve.kaye
> I love my Elekk, for the simple reason I can ride through deeper puddles
> without getting knocked off than I can on my horse or raptor. :)
:) I found that Un'Goro was great for that. Whilst I was questing
there on my Troll Priest I was on a Raptor and my levelling partner of
the time was on a Wolf. He got knocked off loads following me through
water that I'd just ran through with no problems.
steve.kaye
Shammy
AS> As I see it, it's harder to get PvE gear equivalent in ilevel (and
AS> quite likely general effect) to what can be gotten in PvP simply
AS> because the equivalent PvE gear requires finding 4 or 9 or 24 other
AS> people willing to put up with you long enough for you to get the
AS> gear.
AS> Not impossible, just easier than entering AV to leech honor from the
AS> PvP'ers that know what they're doing and will get the whole team
AS> honor, and entering the other battle grounds and doing
AS> anything/enough that will let you get the single mark for losing
AS> that you'll need to accumulate to buy stuff with.
Actually it's easier to get PVE gear than PVP one provided that you have a
Sunwell guild with BT on farm and willing to run you through.
They might want to run you through for friendship reasons or cause they want
to gear up a friend fast to join them in progress raids or many might do it
for good payment. If all goes well and you are lucky with drops you can do
MH in 1 day and BT in the 2 following days and be Sunwell ready after 3
days.
There is no way you can get decked in pvp gear in three 4h sessions.
Even if the above situation is less probable than someone doing AV for gear
it still means that pve gear can be taken with little or no effort if you
know the right people (good raid guilds).
I got from non ready for non heroics to totally heroic ready in a 3h kara
run that got me half or the drops or more that a rogue can get in kara...
ave
> a pretty well geared tank to be able to survive and successfully tank
> in Berserker stance (coz it does more damage and damage is good
> right?!) and a similarly well geared healer to be able to keep them up
> while using the most inefficient heals because they make cool effects.
> (ooooh, shiny!)
What you're describing is stupidity not skill >.>
Tanking in zerker stance is stupidity.
A tank in defensive stance [in your implied opinion] is automatically
"skillful"?
And if a tank stays in zerker and you tell him enough times to *not* do
that, don't you think he'd try a different stance after all the wipes? Does
he automatically become skillful then?
> while using the most inefficient heals because they make cool effects.
> (ooooh, shiny!)
This isn't even a sane argument for or against, the people in your examples
are merely either stupid or non-existent. No healer I ever met casts
particular spells in a raid simply for the effects (well, not while actually
trying to down a boss anyway) ;p
ave
lcpltom
You're assuming that all people know how to learn. That is hardly the
case. While in college, I worked as a cook, and was competent enough
at my job to be made into a trainer. I saw a lot of people come in
who had no obvious handicap that would either be incapable of or
refuse to learn. Simple procedures such as putting seasoning on the
french fries. I would show them the easiest way to do something while
still doing it right, then later find them doing things the hardest
way I could imagine (which of course lead to me bailing them out of
their own sinking ship). Just one of these people could bring the
kitchen into chaos. I did my best to keep these people out of the
kitchen, even providing my opinion to managers to either fire these
people or make them a dishwasher. These people were there for 1
thing, their paycheck, and they didn't care if they did things
completely wrong or took half an hour to cook some cheese sticks.
And you'll get these kind of people in a raid too. They show up,
pretend to listen to everything that they were told, even acknowledge
that they understood you. But when the time comes you see them doing
everything they were told not to, and not doing anything they were
told to. On some fights, this one person can bring the whole thing to
nothing more than expensive repair bill. These people are there for
the gear, and they don't care how they get it. Getting themselves
killed is the easiest method, as that why they can just sit out the
rest of the fight hoping the druid doesn't battle rez them.
Being able to learn from the experience of others is definitely a
skill. Its something that not all people can do. And skill is skill
no matter where it can be used. Obviously, learning is a skill that
can be applied outside of WoW. But considering it can also be applied
inside WoW, its a skill that needs to be present in a raid group.
Xymmie
"ave" <a...@nomailplease.com> wrote in message news:g69h9b$6fu$1...@aioe.org...
>
> Everyone in the world has the ability to listen and follow instructions,
No. Nonononononono.
Some people have the ability to *appear to * listen and *promise to* follow
instructions, but stuff just doesn't stick. You tell them the same thing
the next day and it's like the first time they've heard it.
Xymmie
ave
> follow instructions, but stuff just doesn't stick. You tell them the same
> thing the next day and it's like the first time they've heard it.
That doesn't mean they are completely incapable of learning, of listening or
of following instructions. It only means they didn't listen to or follow
those instructions at that particular time. They must be capable otherwise
they would be unable to read, or talk or buy shopping.
ave
ave
Everyone has the ability to learn (of course, at different levels of
capability), whether they actually can be bothered to learn is down to them.
> These people were there for 1
> thing, their paycheck, and they didn't care if they did things
> completely wrong or took half an hour to cook some cheese sticks.
And if they did listen and do as you told them they would automatically
qualify as a skillful cook? I don't think so.
> And you'll get these kind of people in a raid too. They show up,
> pretend to listen to everything that they were told, even acknowledge
> that they understood you.
This thread is just going off in tangents. Of course people need to listen
and do as they're told to complete a raid, but that in and of itself is not
an example of skill. These people that don't listen that you talk of, they
are not skill-less people (well, they may be but whether they are or not is
not covered by the examples), they're just people who can't be bothered to
listen or do as they're told.
> Being able to learn from the experience of others is definitely a
> skill. Its something that not all people can do. And skill is skill
> no matter where it can be used. Obviously, learning is a skill that
> can be applied outside of WoW. But considering it can also be applied
> inside WoW, its a skill that needs to be present in a raid group.
Maybe it's a skill that needs to be present in a raid group, but it's also a
skill that everyone has so you've just agreed with me I guess. Just about
anyone can complete raid instances without any WoW playing 'skill' as long
as they match my original criteria, which did not include any wow playing
ability.
I haven't argued against people needing to listen or do as they're told. But
these are not WoW skills.
ave
Xymmie
"ave" <a...@nomailplease.com> wrote in message news:g69u04$t0u$1...@aioe.org...
No one is capable of learning all things. To maintain that everyone has the
ability to learn everything is, well, unrealistic.
We'll probably have to just agree to disagree on this one. :)
Xymmie