Me ninja?
nuts
of Midnight (leather, +15agi, +9 stam, 2 sockets, +3dodge socket bonus).
After I won the roll, a fellow hunter in the group /w me I should have
left it to the rogue, since I can wear mail (and I didn't even know
rogues can't...)
I objected that as a hunter I don't care about armor and only choose
gear for the stats, and since I need both agility & stamina, that was
definitely hunter's gear. I wasn't really aware of the ensuing
discussion since we were busy fighting the next boss.
After the group disbanded I noticed I had already an unequipped Sash in
my bags (did Ramparts before), so I whispered the rogue I was willing to
trade it to him, only to find out he was ignoring me.
I went back to look at the instance chat and boy was he mad at me!
Accused me of ninjaing and being really rude.
Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
cryptoguy
> Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
> sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
> on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
> especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
On my server, its considered rude to Need without prior discussion.
This is less of a problem now that soulbound items can be traded
within party, but Needing without asking can get you booted.
pt
Mark (newsgroups)
It would have been much better if you'd actually followed the party
chat and communicated properly before rolling for the loot. Also, no
offence but awareness that rogues can only use up to leather quality
armour should be in your knowledge of WoW. The same applies to druids
by the way.
As a feral druid, I used to get a little miffed that hunters rolled on
leather items which I needed. But if the hunter was a cool guy/girl
and discussed the roll beforehand then it was fine and there were no
hard feelings.
Basically, it doesn't sound like you did anything malicious, but since
hunters can and do use mail items over leather, a bit of empathy for
squishy rogues needing leather gear wouldn't go amiss.
Brent Stroh
>Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
>sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
>on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
>especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
I generally subscribe to the "need if it's an upgrade" idea. And from what
I've seen, it's not uncommon for non-tank warriors to mix in leather and
mail based on the stats - as you've said, DPS generally aren't looking for
+armor. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with you rolling in this
case.
That said, rolling on something you already had in your bag?! Pay
attention. :)
--
Mertuka - Rogue (80) : Mallan - Priest (48) : Medanu - Druid (55)
Ralinth - Warlock (80) : Magorg - Hunter (48) : Ralethian - Paladin (60)
Rakhalga - DK (80) : Meedak - Mage (60) : Rahuraluna - Shaman (60)
Relikag - Warrior (10)
Lancelet
september.org:
> Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
> sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
> on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
> especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
If there is a rogue or a feral druid, you should ask them it they need it,
and only take it if they are not.
In my opinion, rogues should do the same with bows, and ask if there is an
hunter, because it's your main weapon.
ABW
"Lancelet" <lancele...@merci.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9CB799F0BA2B3la...@217.112.180.250...
2H weapon for a feral druid, so I say "go ahead rogues and take their
precious ranged weapons, that should teach them". (actually Blizzard should
make it so everyone sees feral AP on weapons, not just druids)
Brian C
don't care about armor rating, you're just as entitled to wear leather/cloth
as anyone else. Just because Hunters can wear mail doesn't mean they can't
or should not wear leather. It's especially less of a big deal for non
end-game content. I mean seriously, it's a 5-man instance that takes 45
minutes to run.
My guild end-game raids and we allow all classes to try for any item they
can use if it is an upgrade for their primary role. For example, my main is
a cloth-wearing mage. If the leather-wearing Boomkin rolls on cloth, that's
fine by me. If it's an upgrade for his primary role (DPS), then he has
legitimate use for it. No boomkin cares about his armor rating for PVE.
"nuts" <nusp...@re.net> wrote in message
news:hcmn68$u72$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
BLMX
> my bags
That changes the discussion, honestly. It's very common for players
to argue about how useful and item is when both players have a
reasonable claim to the item... However, it's another thing
altogether when you already had it. It changes the question
entirely.
> did I really took what wasn't mine?
If you had it to do over again, would you Need roll again? No.
Mistakes happen. Sometimes people get extra angry about it.
> Should I need roll only on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group?
Hopefully you see that this would be *too* general of a rule. Just
simply talk about it in Party chat.
> Seems unfair to me, especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
You are aware of what is unfair to you. Now you just need to balance
that with concern for what is fair to your teammates.
Nemesis
> nuts <nuspam...@re.net> wrote innews:hcmn68$u72$1...@news.eternal-
Actually I've been having my rogues use bows because it usually has
higher firepower. I know throwing is used more to get someone's
attention rather than damage, but I figure I might as well do some
damage while doing it.
Urbin
> Did Hellfire Ramparts in Outlands, and I need rolled for Shifting Sash
> of Midnight (leather, +15agi, +9 stam, 2 sockets, +3dodge socket bonus).
> After I won the roll, a fellow hunter in the group /w me I should have
> left it to the rogue, since I can wear mail (and I didn't even know
> rogues can't...)
> I objected that as a hunter I don't care about armor and only choose
> gear for the stats, and since I need both agility & stamina, that was
> definitely hunter's gear.
That is a matter that different people view differently. I'd say it's ok to
roll for leather as a hunter but at least ask the rogue if it is ok
beforehand, that is just good manners and I even do it on other gear (not
just with my hunter).
> I wasn't really aware of the ensuing discussion since we were busy
> fighting the next boss.
I recommend you always try to follow party chat, it may contain valuable
information about the fight (or about dissatisfied fellow group members :)
> After the group disbanded I noticed I had already an unequipped Sash in
> my bags (did Ramparts before)
Ah, that shouldn't have happened but I guess it was an honest mistake. It
can happen even if it shouldn't :-)
> so I whispered the rogue I was willing to trade it to him
which is fair
> only to find out he was ignoring me.
which is also fair enough. not so much for rolling against him but for
apparently ignoring the discussion following your loot. I can understand he
is upset if you roll against him (unfairly in his eyes) and then just ignore
his protests in party chat.
> I went back to look at the instance chat and boy was he mad at me!
> Accused me of ninjaing and being really rude.
Understandably if you didn't follow party chat and hence ignored him
> Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
> sash now :)
You could have asked one of the other party members to ask him to /unignore
you so you could trade the item...
> did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
> on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
> especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
At least, before you roll against somebody else outside your armour class
ask if they mind and link your existing item so they can see that it is a
big upgrade.
In summary, I think your bigger mistake was not so much the roll but your
lack of communication.
On the other hand, it is a levelling item that will be replaced within a few
levels on the way to 80, so the rogue over reacted a bit considering the
value of the item...
Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Dwarven Hunter | Surana (64), Draenei Mage
Mymule (80), Gnomish Warlock | Kordosch (65), Human Death Knight
Sunh (79), Nightelven Priest | Juran (33), Nightelven Druid
Adam Leinss
> Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
> sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
> on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
> especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
Generally, before you need, you should ask the group and possibly link what
you have now. Mail would be your primary gear type, not leather, so it
should have went to the rogue who can only wear cloth/leather. Gear with
+dodge would only be useful for the rogue since you are ranged.
As a tank, if someone was rolling need against me for a plate with defense
stats I would be pretty mad (that is: if it was an upgrade for me).
You might not even to roll need for leatherwith the new roll system in 3.3
since that's not your primary armor type...
Lancelet
news:c0db7b9b-d50a-430a...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>
> Actually I've been having my rogues use bows because it usually has
> higher firepower. I know throwing is used more to get someone's
> attention rather than damage, but I figure I might as well do some
> damage while doing it.
>
Don't get me wrong. I don't say a rogue should not use bows or guns. My
rogue use it, even if I like throwing weapons because of the lack of ammo
necessity.
nuts
That would be nonsense imho. What do you mean by "primary armor type"?
I have no use for armor, if a high level mob gets to melee range in an
instance and I don't manage to lose aggro I'm pretty dead whether I wear
mail or leather.
But equipping a +50agi leather gear over a +20agi mail makes a HUGE
difference to me.
nuts
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 14:35:01 +0100, nuts wrote:
>> Did Hellfire Ramparts in Outlands, and I need rolled for Shifting Sash
>> of Midnight (leather, +15agi, +9 stam, 2 sockets, +3dodge socket bonus).
>> After I won the roll, a fellow hunter in the group /w me I should have
>> left it to the rogue, since I can wear mail (and I didn't even know
>> rogues can't...)
>> I objected that as a hunter I don't care about armor and only choose
>> gear for the stats, and since I need both agility & stamina, that was
>> definitely hunter's gear.
>
> That is a matter that different people view differently. I'd say it's ok to
> roll for leather as a hunter but at least ask the rogue if it is ok
> beforehand, that is just good manners and I even do it on other gear (not
> just with my hunter).
That's understood. you all agree on that so next time I'll try to talk
things over first :)
Didn't mean to be unpolite, but on the few instances I've been so far
there hasn't been much discussion over loot gear.
>> I wasn't really aware of the ensuing discussion since we were busy
>> fighting the next boss.
>
> I recommend you always try to follow party chat, it may contain valuable
> information about the fight (or about dissatisfied fellow group members :)
Usually I do follow party chat. But this time happened that the tank
went on to attack the final boss with only me and the healer assisting
(the other two were busy discussing my behaviour, as I later discovered)
and we nearly wiped... so there was no time to look at their chattering.
> On the other hand, it is a levelling item that will be replaced within a few
> levels on the way to 80, so the rogue over reacted a bit considering the
> value of the item...
That's was I thought.
Plus, it's my first socketed gear! :)
Urbin
> Adam Leinss wrote:
> > nuts <nusp...@re.net> wrote in news:hcmn68$u72$1...@news.eternal-
> > september.org:
> >
> >> Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
> >> sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
> >> on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
> >> especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
> >
> > Generally, before you need, you should ask the group and possibly link what
> > you have now. Mail would be your primary gear type, not leather, so it
> > should have went to the rogue who can only wear cloth/leather. Gear with
> > +dodge would only be useful for the rogue since you are ranged.
> >
> > As a tank, if someone was rolling need against me for a plate with defense
> > stats I would be pretty mad (that is: if it was an upgrade for me).
> >
> > You might not even to roll need for leatherwith the new roll system in 3.3
> > since that's not your primary armor type...
>
> That would be nonsense imho. What do you mean by "primary armor type"?
The primary armour type is the highest armour type you can wear. For a
hunter above level 40, that is mail (as it is for Shamans). For a rogue and
druid it is leather. For paladins, warriors and death knights it is plate.
With the new dungeon loot system being introduced with patch 3.3. the "need
button" will not be available for armour that is not your "primary type".
That means, a hunter cannot roll need for plate (which you couldn't wear
anyway) nor for leather (which in some cases was an upgrade so far) and cloth
(which shouldn't be a problem).
The advantages of this system are:
- rogues will not have their items "stolen" by hunters
- priests will not have their items "stolen" by druids, shamans and paladins
- druids will not have their items "stolen" by paladins
The disadvantages of this system are:
- a leather item may really be a great upgrade for a hunter. if there is no
rogue in the group or he doesn't need it or if he is happy to compete for
it with the hunter, this is no longer possible without previous discussion
and everybody else passing and the hunter and rogue both rolling greed
- the same applies for the healing hybrid classes and leather/cloth items
> I have no use for armor, if a high level mob gets to melee range in an
> instance and I don't manage to lose aggro I'm pretty dead whether I wear
> mail or leather.
> But equipping a +50agi leather gear over a +20agi mail makes a HUGE
> difference to me.
True and in my eyes fair enough. As of patch 3.3. Blizzard makes it harder
for you to get it.
Hoofu&Oggie
> The advantages of this system are:
> - rogues will not have their items "stolen" by hunters
> - priests will not have their items "stolen" by druids, shamans and paladins
> - druids will not have their items "stolen" by paladins
But hunters will still have their bows "stolen" by rogues - and rogues
will still have their swords "stolen" by hunters! }:O)
Hoofu, 80 tauren shaman, Argent Dawn (EU)
Urbin
> Urbin wrote:
> > The advantages of this system are:
> > - rogues will not have their items "stolen" by hunters
> > - priests will not have their items "stolen" by druids, shamans and paladins
> > - druids will not have their items "stolen" by paladins
>
> But hunters will still have their bows "stolen" by rogues - and rogues
> will still have their swords "stolen" by hunters! }:O)
True. And I don't think the patch notes mentioned this, but will I be able
to Need on weapons I cannot equip? Is anyone on the PTR and can tell us?
Adam Leinss
september.org:
> That would be nonsense imho. What do you mean by "primary armor type"?
> I have no use for armor, if a high level mob gets to melee range in an
> instance and I don't manage to lose aggro I'm pretty dead whether I wear
> mail or leather.
> But equipping a +50agi leather gear over a +20agi mail makes a HUGE
> difference to me.
Urbin posted the new roll system in 3.3. It will force you to actually
talk to your team mates if you want a piece of gear instead of just being
able to hit need.
I have dual spec resto/elem on my shaman. I needed hit pieces for my 2nd
spec, but before I rolled need on cloth hit pieces I asked everyone if it
was OK. It's just the polite thing to do.
If I'm tanking, I only roll on defense pieces and if I'm DPSing, I only
roll on DPS pieces unless of course I see no one needing those
upgrades...then I ask.
Likewise, if you kept winning rolls in a dungeon, you should probably pass
if other people are looking for the same gear. Just because you can do
something doesn't mean you should.
twk
nuts <nusp...@re.net> wrote:
This just added to the problem. No one should have started a new pull
until you were all ready. If there is a discussion/argument going on,
then not everyone is ready. Just one more problem with PuGs. It's
possible that could have been worked out. You'll never know now.
> > On the other hand, it is a levelling item that will be replaced within a few
> > levels on the way to 80, so the rogue over reacted a bit considering the
> > value of the item...
>
> That's was I thought.
> Plus, it's my first socketed gear! :)
--
Hypanthia, Night Elf, Shadow Priest, Enchantress/Herbalist.
Cowpattee, Tauren, Druid, Enchantress/Herbalist.
neithskye
> I disagree with most of the other responders. If you're a DPS/healer and you
> don't care about armor rating, you're just as entitled to wear leather/cloth
> as anyone else. Just because Hunters can wear mail doesn't mean they can't
> or should not wear leather. It's especially less of a big deal for non
> end-game content. I mean seriously, it's a 5-man instance that takes 45
> minutes to run.
I have two characters - a Paladin and a Priest. With all due respect,
my Priest disagrees with you. I can only wear one armor type - cloth.
In one Naxx run the Druid healer was saying that the next boss had a
chance to drop a nice pair of cloth healing boots. Um, excuse me. I
can only wear Cloth. So, great. The Druid could win the roll should
the boots drop . . . then the next boss, a pair of leather healing
boots drop? Oops. I can't roll on those.
If I don't need something, by all means, any healer can roll on it. My
tank Paladin's other spec is Holy. He uses Firesoul (the spellpower
sword with hit rating from Ulduar) because none of the caster DPS
wanted it. But, all things being equal, the class that can only wear a
particular type of armor should get priority. Our pool of available
items is significantly smaller.
--
Jill
Brian C
can use. Priests can use cloth armor. Druids can use cloth and leather. The
mechanic is not Priests can use cloth, Druids can use ONLY leather. A while
ago I had a warrior wearing several mail pieces simply because they were
much better.
Your argument stems from the (factual) belief that classes which can use
multiple armor types have more chances at items. I don't disagree with that
statement; however it is part of the intended game mechanic. Furthermore, I
think if you were to go through raid instances and count the number of (for
example) cloth spell DPS gear and leather spell DPS gear you'll find there
are many more examples of cloth.
My mage is a good case study. Despite the horrible inequity that we allow
all classes (e.g., druids, shamans) that can use spell power gear to try for
cloth spell power gear, I'm still one of the best geared characters in the
guild and consistently smoke those leather/mail wearers for our raid role
(DPS). That's the other side of the armor game mechanic -- yes they can wear
more armor types and can spec into different roles, for my one role and my
one armor type, I do much better. I imagine your priest does too.
All that being said, I find that people are generally cognizant of what to
roll on based on the what's BIS for them and others and the relevative
benefit of a particular item. I have a Paladin too, and I'll usually pass on
mail gear if it's of good benefit to a shaman; however if it's a huge
upgrade for me, and a minor one for him, he'd have no issue with me rolling
on it.
Anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree :D
twk
"Brian C" <notaval...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have to disagree.
First, you top posted which puts all our comments out of order.
Second, if there is a cloth item dropped that you need, then you should
pass and wait for the leather item that you'll need on next anyway. How
long is that cloth item going to last you? Not long if you regularly
make these runs. Seems greedy to me for one to need on an item that is
not your primary armor type.
If there are no clothies in the group, then need on it, otherwise you
might want to talk it over. The clothy might need it worse than you.
Better to keep a friend than loose one. I'd be pretty upset if a leather
wearer needed on a cloth item that was an upgrade for me.
As for weapons, if it's an upgrade for a hunter, rogue, or whoever, then
need on it. It's an upgrade isn't it?
Brian C
> First, you top posted which puts all our comments out of order.
Here, I'll post my comment inside yours in the appropriate areas to keep all
the comments in the logical order, which is extremely important for a
discussion of this magnitude.
> Second, if there is a cloth item dropped that you need, then you should
> pass and wait for the leather item that you'll need on next anyway. How
> long is that cloth item going to last you? Not long if you regularly
> make these runs. Seems greedy to me for one to need on an item that is
> not your primary armor type.
My point, which you missed, was that there is no "primary" armor type.
> If there are no clothies in the group, then need on it, otherwise you
> might want to talk it over. The clothy might need it worse than you.
> Better to keep a friend than loose one. I'd be pretty upset if a leather
> wearer needed on a cloth item that was an upgrade for me.
We clearly have a difference of opinion. While opinions are subjective by
definition, I can tell you without hesitation that in my guild we do not
enforce "primary" armor types and we have no loot drama issues. That is
somewhat of a rarity in WoW for raiding guilds.
My Mage is my main raiding character and I use him 95% of the time. I
_personally_ stand to lose from my own point of view; perhaps we can agree
that greed is not the issue.
You basically stated the same thing as Neithskye, only less eloquently. I'll
say the same thing again too, let's agree to disagree.
John Gordon
> I can tell you without hesitation that in my guild we do not enforce
> "primary" armor types and we have no loot drama issues. That is somewhat
> of a rarity in WoW for raiding guilds.
So when the elemental shaman gets his mail spell gear at bargain-basement
prices because he has no competition for those pieces and then also bids
on BiS cloth pieces because of all the DKP he saved, nobody gumbles about
it? Not even a little?
Your guild is indeed a rarity.
--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"
Brian C
> prices because he has no competition for those pieces and then also bids
> on BiS cloth pieces because of all the DKP he saved, nobody gumbles about
> it? Not even a little?
Possibly because that situation you described is extremely uncommon. First,
if he horded all his DKP he's probably passed on mail items he could have
used just to try and screw over some clothy later (unlikely). Then, his mail
item has to drop. Next, a BiS cloth item has to drop and no one has the DKP
to win it. And finally, the shaman has to be completely unaware or not care
about what best for the guild as a whole.
The situation you described above isn't any worse than if Clothy A has
enough DKP to win two BIS items in the row, while poor Clothy B does not.
The Shaman's mail item will still cost DKP, it's not "free" because no
clothy can use it.
My argument isn't that everyone should roll on everything they can remotely
use, it's that they shouldn't be prevented from doing so if it is indeed a
legitimate upgrade.
John Gordon
> The situation you described above isn't any worse than if Clothy A has
> enough DKP to win two BIS items in the row, while poor Clothy B does not.
Sure it is, because clothy A and clothy B are competing equally for all
cloth gear. The elemental shaman is not competing equally because he has
zero competition for most mail spell gear.
> The Shaman's mail item will still cost DKP, it's not "free" because no
> clothy can use it.
It could be very close to free, depending on the particular DKP system.
twk
"Brian C" <notaval...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have to disagree.
> > First, you top posted which puts all our comments out of order.
>
> Here, I'll post my comment inside yours in the appropriate areas to keep all
> the comments in the logical order, which is extremely important for a
> discussion of this magnitude.
>
> > Second, if there is a cloth item dropped that you need, then you should
> > pass and wait for the leather item that you'll need on next anyway. How
> > long is that cloth item going to last you? Not long if you regularly
> > make these runs. Seems greedy to me for one to need on an item that is
> > not your primary armor type.
>
> My point, which you missed, was that there is no "primary" armor type.
Okay, "dominant armor type" not "primary armor type". My mistake.
There is no primary armor type mentioned, only dominant is mentioned.
Are we picking at nits here? Is there also a primary armor type?
From:
<http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/test-realm-patchnotes.html>
Need Before Greed will now recognize gear appropriate for a class in
three ways: the class must be able to equip the item, pure melee will be
unable to roll on spell power items, and classes are limited to their
dominant armor type (ex. paladins for plate). All items will still be
available via Greed rolls as well as the new Disenchant option should no
member be able to use the item.
So at lower levels, less than lvl 40(?), rogues and hunters will be
competing for some weapons and armor. Druids will probably not compete
often with hunters and rogues. I have no plate characters so I don't
know about them.
>
> > If there are no clothies in the group, then need on it, otherwise you
> > might want to talk it over. The clothy might need it worse than you.
> > Better to keep a friend than loose one. I'd be pretty upset if a leather
> > wearer needed on a cloth item that was an upgrade for me.
>
> We clearly have a difference of opinion. While opinions are subjective by
> definition, I can tell you without hesitation that in my guild we do not
> enforce "primary" armor types and we have no loot drama issues. That is
> somewhat of a rarity in WoW for raiding guilds.
>
> My Mage is my main raiding character and I use him 95% of the time. I
> _personally_ stand to lose from my own point of view; perhaps we can agree
> that greed is not the issue.
>
> You basically stated the same thing as Neithskye, only less eloquently. I'll
> say the same thing again too, let's agree to disagree.
I think I might like the new way, and not just because it works in my
priest's and my rogue's favor, but it seems more fair this way and will
certainly cut down on the out right thieves and ninjas.
Brian C
> cloth gear. The elemental shaman is not competing equally because he has
> zero competition for most mail spell gear.
Now you're assuming there are no other mail wearers who want spell gear.
Yes, I'm sure we could describe a scenario where someone would get angry
over loot, but as I said, it just isn't happening. In both scenarios I laid
out, a player gets "screwed", yet for some reason you find the latter
scenario acceptable and the former inexcusable.
> It could be very close to free, depending on the particular DKP system.
Obviously, but we were speaking of my DKP system, where item DKP cost is
based on item slot and ilevel only.
As an aside, my guild has a loot rule that I dislike. If no one wants an
item for a main character/main spec. that item becomes available for for
"off-specs". These off-spec items are distributed via "/random" and they
cost no DKP. More items fall into this category than you'd expect, and that
number increases toward the end of raid cycles.
The reason I don't like this distinction is two-fold: (1) "pure" classes
like Mages, Rogues, Warlocks, etc., have no off-spec. I cannot claim an item
I'd use for a Fire spec as a free off-set item when I am Arcane. There are
items I'd use for my main spec, but are only minor upgrades I cannot justify
the DKP cost for; a hybrid class will end up with the item for free, but I
have no such option; (2) dual-specs have muddled the definition of what
one's main spec is. For example a good Druid friend of mine is a "tank", but
he spends at least half his time DPSing and he gets all of those items for
free.
Do other guilds have a loot system like that?
John Gordon
> yet for some reason you find the latter scenario acceptable and the
> former inexcusable.
Not at all; I was just intrigued by the claim that your guild had no
loot drama, and presented a corner case that you might have overlooked.
> As an aside, my guild has a loot rule that I dislike. If no one wants an
> item for a main character/main spec. that item becomes available for for
> "off-specs". These off-spec items are distributed via "/random" and they
> cost no DKP. More items fall into this category than you'd expect, and that
> number increases toward the end of raid cycles.
> Do other guilds have a loot system like that?
My guild does something very similar with the addition of stepping down
to a half-price DKP bid if nobody wants the item for full price, before
it goes to offset roll.
(And the offspec rolls aren't free; you're expected to deposit gold in the
gbank for each offset item you win, but that's still very close to free.)
ThomasH
>> Sure it is, because clothy A and clothy B are competing equally for all
>> cloth gear. The elemental shaman is not competing equally because he has
>> zero competition for most mail spell gear.
>
> Now you're assuming there are no other mail wearers who want spell gear.
Well duh! Compare a spellpower cloth item; who wants it?
- All 3 priest specs
- Warlocks
- Mages
- Rest / balance druids
- Resto / elemental shammies
- Holy Pallies
Compare it to a mail item:
- Resto / elemental shammies
- Holy Pallies
That's sort of an overwhelming difference, wouldn't you say? And let's
not go into the plate spellpower items...
Even though we have 5 paladins in our regular 25 man group, they all
have a healing set. They got it for free, no matter what spec they were,
since the holy pallies were done with their set...
Our raidgroup still uses a rolling system. We first do a need roll. All
players for whom the item is an upgrade can roll need. But, if it's not
your 'prio armor', you'll have a lower priority...
--
Greets, Thomas.
Bulgaroth (Hunter), Latigo (DK), Darkhulk (Druid), and Smallwall
(Paladin) on Argent Dawn EU.
DarkRose
Both my current and previous guilds defined main spec as the spec you
entered the raid as, ie what you were brought in for. If you can in as
a tank, tank is your main spec, even if you have an Arms dual spec. In
my old guild, DKP was given per boss, on time, etc (including a 50 DKP
bonus if you lived your FIRST time through the Dance in Naxx, lol),
and DKP for items was a 25 DKP minimum bid in 5 DKP increments, Off-
spec items were an automatic 20 DKP, no bids needed, just a /roll and
a 20 DKP deduction.
PV
>I objected that as a hunter I don't care about armor and only choose
>gear for the stats, and since I need both agility & stamina, that was
This is technically called "huntard" behavior, thinking that anything with
vaguely appropriate stats is hunter gear. FYI - if you don't need armor,
you don't need stamina either. Both stats are of use to hunters only in
PvP.
If an item looks good but it's for a lower than your maximum armor type,
only roll on it if the people for whom it's their MAXIMUM type don't want
it. If you don't know, saying "OK if I need?", and waiting for an answer,
is what you need to do.
>After the group disbanded I noticed I had already an unequipped Sash in
>my bags (did Ramparts before), so I whispered the rogue I was willing to
Ugh! So not only did you need an item that's prime for another class, but
for an item that you already had? This is incredibly bad behavior.
>Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
>sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
>on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
>especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
I get that you're saying you didn't know this stuff, but from the other
side there's no overreaction here - you were being a jerk at least for
rolling on secondary armor, and a total asshat for not seeing if you
already had the item. It's a shame the loot system even let you roll -
"unique-equipped" made misbehavior like this possible, for the sole reason
of making life easier for enchanters. Maybe they'll put the "unique"
restriction back with the new changes to how loot rolls work. *
--
* PV Something like badgers, something like lizards, and something
like corkscrews.
PV
>Actually I've been having my rogues use bows because it usually has
>higher firepower.
Yeek. Do a little research here, this is not sound reasoning. Especially
since a major finishing move doesn't work with anything other than a thrown
weapon.
>attention rather than damage, but I figure I might as well do some
>damage while doing it.
Not at the expense of another class that will get constant use out of it,
no. *
Miikka
> Do other guilds have a loot system like that?
I have to say that I'm very glad about my guild and our loot rules
whenever I read threads like these.
Basically we run a loot council with priority on gearing our tanks.
If nobody wants the item for main spec it gets rolled for off-specs
with priority for people with off-specs often needed in our raids.
Of course this wouldn't work without the people accomodating it,
so very often people pass on a possible upgrade if they feel it's
a bigger benefit to the raid for another to have it. Especially
if a piece of gear is best in slot for the class and spec, others
usually all pass no matter what the armor class is.
We haven't had any problems or drama with loot thus far. Though
there are few sorrowful comments occasionally when a piece of
gear is best in slot for majority of the classes. :)
--
"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on
society." -Mark Twain
Jamie Kahn Genet
> Did Hellfire Ramparts in Outlands, and I need rolled for Shifting Sash
> of Midnight (leather, +15agi, +9 stam, 2 sockets, +3dodge socket bonus).
> After I won the roll, a fellow hunter in the group /w me I should have
> left it to the rogue, since I can wear mail (and I didn't even know
> rogues can't...)
> I objected that as a hunter I don't care about armor and only choose
> gear for the stats, and since I need both agility & stamina, that was
> definitely hunter's gear. I wasn't really aware of the ensuing
> discussion since we were busy fighting the next boss.
>
> After the group disbanded I noticed I had already an unequipped Sash in
> my bags (did Ramparts before), so I whispered the rogue I was willing to
> trade it to him, only to find out he was ignoring me.
> I went back to look at the instance chat and boy was he mad at me!
> Accused me of ninjaing and being really rude.
>
> Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
> sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
> on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
> especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
So long as it's an upgrade and not obviously more useful for another
class (.e.g some stats are wasted on you) I say need as needed. This guy
is just another brat who's probably never been told no in his life and
can't handle adult-level social situations. It's pathetic, but sadly all
too common.
People like this use ignore because they're cowards who cannot face up
to their immature behaviour. I pity him if anything. Ignore is intended
to deal with people like him IMO. Not the reverse.
Of course a little discussion beforehand would have helped reveal this
guy for the jerk he is and you'd have realised it wasn't worth the
hassle to roll need on it. So I'd ask next time.
--
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Jamie Kahn Genet
Shiflet
"Jamie Kahn Genet" <jam...@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote in message
news:1j8q1uz.12c3otl1uyor1tN%jam...@wizardling.geek.nz...
> So long as it's an upgrade and not obviously more useful for another
> class (.e.g some stats are wasted on you) I say need as needed.
The socket bonus for the belt was +dodge rating. Wasted on a hunter, useful
on a rogue. It was a rogue belt, the hunter needed on it(and as it turned
out, already had one anyway, making his need roll even LESS appropriate),
then didn't respond when called on it, which, to many people, definitely
counts as ninja'ing.
> People like this use ignore because they're cowards who cannot face up
> to their immature behaviour. I pity him if anything. Ignore is intended
> to deal with people like him IMO. Not the reverse.
The hunter already made it clear he wasn't reading party chat so after
needing a rogue belt then appearing to ignore the rogue in chat, I can see
why the rogue would ignore him.
> Of course a little discussion beforehand would have helped reveal this
> guy for the jerk he is
The rogue can't use anything but leather. A leather belt with stam, agility,
sockets, and dodge-a rogue belt, in other words-drops. A hunter(who unlike
the rogue isn't limited to leather) need rolls on it, then completely
ignores the discussion in party chat. And...the rogue is the jerk?
Sure, we know the situation the hunter was in after posting here, but if I
was in the party at the time, and the hunter need rolls on a rogue item then
ignores the discussion about it in party chat, not only would the hunter
look like a jerk, I'd also not group with him in the future and would warn
others to be wary of grouping with him.
twk
"Shiflet" <rshi...@charter.net> wrote:
Well, the OP did say he didn't notice the discussion because a pull was
started on the next boss. Too bad to, because this should have been
worked out before the next battle was started.
Is everyone ready? <-- This could have made all the difference.
No, can't you see we're arguing?!?
It seems there were many screw ups here. It was a bad situation that got
worse. Well, hopefully a few people learned a few things.
nuts
>> Sure, we know the situation the hunter was in after posting here, but if I
>> was in the party at the time, and the hunter need rolls on a rogue item then
>> ignores the discussion about it in party chat, not only would the hunter
>> look like a jerk, I'd also not group with him in the future and would warn
>> others to be wary of grouping with him.
>
> Well, the OP did say he didn't notice the discussion because a pull was
> started on the next boss. Too bad to, because this should have been
> worked out before the next battle was started.
>
> Is everyone ready? <-- This could have made all the difference.
> No, can't you see we're arguing?!?
>
> It seems there were many screw ups here. It was a bad situation that got
> worse. Well, hopefully a few people learned a few things.
On this subject, I pugged again yesterday.
Last boss dropped a polearm, and this time I kindly asked everyone if it
was ok for me to need on that. I hadn't finished typing the questions
that the three DK on the party had already needed on the polearm.
Oh, and the first boss dropped a mace. Dwarf need roll it, wins and
leaves the group a second after. ("I am the macemaster!", lol)
As I wrote before, never seen much discussion over loot in dungeons on
my server.
I guess instance levelling is a bit different than lv80 raiding...
nuts
> nuts <nusp...@re.net> writes:
>> I objected that as a hunter I don't care about armor and only choose
>> gear for the stats, and since I need both agility & stamina, that was
>> definitely hunter's gear. I wasn't really aware of the ensuing
>> discussion since we were busy fighting the next boss.
>
> This is technically called "huntard" behavior, thinking that anything with
> vaguely appropriate stats is hunter gear. FYI - if you don't need armor,
> you don't need stamina either. Both stats are of use to hunters only in
> PvP.
My pets benefits from my stamina (and HUGELY benifts from it with the
Wild Hunt talent), and do I need anything else that Pet Health and
(ranged) Attack Power in PvE?
But if your point is that hunters should only roll on agi and Ap - which
are beneficial to almost any non caster class - then it means that
there's no hunter gear to be rolled at lv60, period.
I should just buy gear from AH so people don't call me a huntard? LOL.
>> After the group disbanded I noticed I had already an unequipped Sash in
>> my bags (did Ramparts before), so I whispered the rogue I was willing to
>
> Ugh! So not only did you need an item that's prime for another class, but
> for an item that you already had? This is incredibly bad behavior.
Oh come on, it was just a mistake, it wasn't intended :-)
>> Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
>> sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
>> on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
>> especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
>
> I get that you're saying you didn't know this stuff, but from the other
> side there's no overreaction here
It was pointless really. I wouldn't even talk again to that rogue if it
wasn't to (try to) amend my mistake.
I don't really care about the /ignore, i just wanted to understand the
reasons 'cause i'd like to be a polite girl in future pugs.
The way I see it, on my server and at my lvl nobody never asks
*anything* when need rolling, so I couldn't be expected to know.
nuts
>> After the group disbanded I noticed I had already an unequipped Sash in
>> my bags (did Ramparts before), so I whispered the rogue I was willing to
>> trade it to him, only to find out he was ignoring me.
>> I went back to look at the instance chat and boy was he mad at me!
>> Accused me of ninjaing and being really rude.
>>
>> Now, apart from the fact that if he didn't overreact he would have the
>> sash now :) did I really took what wasn't mine? Should I need roll only
>> on mail everytime there's a rogue in the group? Seems unfair to me,
>> especially since rogues often need roll on bows...
>
> So long as it's an upgrade and not obviously more useful for another
> class (.e.g some stats are wasted on you) I say need as needed. This guy
> is just another brat who's probably never been told no in his life and
> can't handle adult-level social situations. It's pathetic, but sadly all
> too common.
>
> People like this use ignore because they're cowards who cannot face up
> to their immature behaviour. I pity him if anything. Ignore is intended
> to deal with people like him IMO. Not the reverse.
I totally agree with this comment! You're the best! :-)
I mean, paople are supposed to have fun, not to get mad over a piece of
(crap) gear. If somebody annoys me/hits on me to the point of being rude
or becomes unbearable, then I use ignore.
Any other use... get a life, fcs.
Catriona R
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:42:15 +0100, nuts <nusp...@re.net> wrote:
>On this subject, I pugged again yesterday.
>Last boss dropped a polearm, and this time I kindly asked everyone if it
>was ok for me to need on that. I hadn't finished typing the questions
>that the three DK on the party had already needed on the polearm.
>Oh, and the first boss dropped a mace. Dwarf need roll it, wins and
>leaves the group a second after. ("I am the macemaster!", lol)
>
>As I wrote before, never seen much discussion over loot in dungeons on
>my server.
>I guess instance levelling is a bit different than lv80 raiding...
You'll find level 80 groups are rather better mannered, lowbies do
tend to just roll on things they need without considering anybody
else. Best way to figure out what you need is: is it your main armor
type (mail in your case)? If so, and the stats are right, go ahead and
roll. If it isn't, then check nobody who can *only* use leather wants
it before taking it.
In the case of a weapon, as a hunter you can need any *ranged* weapon
that's an upgrade (uh, not thrown btw - you can use throwing weapons I
believe, but most your abilities don't work with them last I checked
;-)), but if you want a melee weapon, make sure its stats are good for
you (agility, attack power, NOT strength - no warrior/DK will
appreciate losing their uber +strength weapon to a hunter) - melee
weapons are about stats for ranged classes, so just ignore the dps
listed on it, since you shouldn't be meleeing that much.
Btw if a melee class rolls on your ranged weapon they're being rude -
I've always played my rogue with the idea that a ranged weapon is a
stat stick, not a major weapon, so should a hunter need it, it's only
polite to let them take it - if they don't it's fair game but I'd
never roll against a hunter for it. Likewise on my hunter, with melee
weapons I'd only roll against a melee class if it was a massive
upgrade to me, and preferably using stats that benefit me more than
them; if it's marginal then it's more polite to let the class who'll
benefit most from it take it.
Probably others see it differently to me but those are the rules I use
for myself anyway.
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (80 Undead Priest)
Tairbh (80 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (78 Troll Shaman)
Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock)
Ruire (70 Blood Elf Paladin)
Cradok
> Btw if a melee class rolls on your ranged weapon they're being rude -
> I've always played my rogue with the idea that a ranged weapon is a
> stat stick, not a major weapon, so should a hunter need it, it's only
> polite to let them take it - if they don't it's fair game but I'd
> never roll against a hunter for it.
Yup, for me a ranged is a puller and stats, I don't even look at DPS and
I've never rolled need except for that one time when the third Ancient
Bone Bows dropped in one Scholo run and everybody else was greeding :-p
I did realise recently, however, that while my guns and bows are in
their 300s, I'd never used a thrown weapon before.
Shiflet
"nuts" <nusp...@re.net> wrote in message
news:hcua1k$d57$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> My pets benefits from my stamina (and HUGELY benifts from it with the Wild
> Hunt talent), and do I need anything else that Pet Health and (ranged)
> Attack Power in PvE?
Crit. Intellect isn't totally ignored by hunters either, though that will
apparently change in the future.
Some hunters also focus on armor penetration, but I believe that's only a
specific MM hunter build.
> But if your point is that hunters should only roll on agi and Ap - which
> are beneficial to almost any non caster class - then it means that there's
> no hunter gear to be rolled at lv60, period.
No, it means you roll on gear that has ap, agi, crit, and DOESN'T have stats
that make the item intended for another class, such as dodge.
nuts
>> My pets benefits from my stamina (and HUGELY benifts from it with the Wild
>> Hunt talent), and do I need anything else that Pet Health and (ranged)
>> Attack Power in PvE?
>
> Crit. Intellect isn't totally ignored by hunters either, though that will
> apparently change in the future.
Correct, but not at low lvs. I'm gearing in +crit now since I (dual)
specced in survival and it's a whole lot of fun. But it's really no use
before getting the +5% crit MM talent.
Intellect increases AP so it may be useful even after hunters will lose
mana, but again you need to have a MM build.
In any case, I wouldn't go far in PvE without enough pet armor.
>> But if your point is that hunters should only roll on agi and Ap - which
>> are beneficial to almost any non caster class - then it means that there's
>> no hunter gear to be rolled at lv60, period.
>
> No, it means you roll on gear that has ap, agi, crit, and DOESN'T have stats
> that make the item intended for another class, such as dodge.
Let me ask you this: is there a stat that "make the item intended" for
hunters?
Shiflet
> In any case, I wouldn't go far in PvE without enough pet armor.
Well, that belt wouldn't really help your pet's armor.,,
> Let me ask you this: is there a stat that "make the item intended" for
> hunters?
Yeah, mail with AP.
neithskye
> PV wrote:
> > nuts <nuspam...@re.net> writes:
> > Ugh! So not only did you need an item that's prime for another class, but
> > for an item that you already had? This is incredibly bad behavior.
>
> Oh come on, it was just a mistake, it wasn't intended :-)
I understand that you made a mistake, but realize it's a bad habit to
get into, and when you raid often enough, you see these things
happening all the time, with the end result being that people get
screwed out of gear.
For example, a tank during an Ulduar 25 run rolled on the ilvl 226
tanking bracers from Flame Leviathan. She had the ilvl 245 crafted
Saronite Swordbreakers. The ilvl 226 bracers were a downgrade in every
single stat - stamina, defense rating, dodge. Why did she roll? No
idea. And she won the roll. Had someone not said something, I would
have been out of luck replacing my ilvl 213 bracers.
Cloth healer bracers dropped from 25-man Grand Widow. A Warlock won
over my Holy Priest. He later decided that, since they didn't have
hit, he didn't want them, and vendored them. My Priest has never seen
those bracers drop again. That same Warlock, who had ridiculous roll
luck and won about six things that run, later rolled on an item whose
icon looked like a belt, but were actually shoulders. He again won the
roll, over three other people still in blues. When asked if he did not
just win the shoulder token that same run, he answered, "Oh. These are
shoulders?" Didn't even look what he was rolling on. Didn't stop to
compare the item to what was currently equipped. Nope. It's cloth. I'm
a clothie. Must. Roll. Cannot. Resist.
It's one thing when it's an instance you can run again immediately,
but for raids, with their once-a-week limitation, you might not see
that item drop again for three months, if ever. One gets mightily sick
of seeing people roll for things mindlessly.
--
Jill
Brian C
I'll lodge a complaint with the Outlook Express developers at Microsoft.
John Gordon
> I generally subscribe to the "need if it's an upgrade" idea. And from what
> I've seen, it's not uncommon for non-tank warriors to mix in leather and
> mail based on the stats - as you've said, DPS generally aren't looking for
> +armor. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with you rolling in this
> case.
In my opinion, it depends how courteous you want to be to your fellow
players.
A courteous hunter will always defer to a rogue on leather items, because
leather is a rogue's *only* option. You're taking away the only thing
they can wear. You can wear mail; rogues can't. You have other options;
the rogue has none.
Forgive me for making an analogy, but it's a little like going to a
restaurant and ordering a meal, and then taking extra food off someone
else's plate. You have your own plate (mail armor); leave theirs (leather
armor) alone.
If you don't give a hoot about being courteous, though, then go ahead and
roll need.
Jamie Kahn Genet
> > Worse than that his quoting is broken.
>
> I'll lodge a complaint with the Outlook Express developers at Microsoft.
LMAO! Yeah, cause that's resulted in great progress in the 10+ years
I've been putting up with OE's crap. Not ONCE have they ever fixed
broken quoting, sigs, etc. NEVER. MS don't give a shit. Never have.
Besides - OE is a dead product (thank the gods!).
Catriona R
>Besides - OE is a dead product (thank the gods!).
For usability I seriously wish it wasn't, Window Live Mail absolutely
sucks in comparison. I haven't used OE for newsgroups in years anyway,
but it did email well for what I wanted. WLM has managed to remove or
break several minor things that I liked, whilst adding nothing good
(the spam filter had potential but seems untrainable so I went back to
good old Popfile within a week) and some very bad - does anybody over
the age of about 15 want their text automatically converted to smiley
graphics when sending an email? I sure don't, and they didn't even
make it optional, it's just on and not possible to turn it off. Always
been happy with OE but WLM is making me consider looking at other
email programs.
Ashen Shugar
>twk wrote:
>
>>> Sure, we know the situation the hunter was in after posting here, but if I
>>> was in the party at the time, and the hunter need rolls on a rogue item then
>>> ignores the discussion about it in party chat, not only would the hunter
>>> look like a jerk, I'd also not group with him in the future and would warn
>>> others to be wary of grouping with him.
>>
>> Well, the OP did say he didn't notice the discussion because a pull was
>> started on the next boss. Too bad to, because this should have been
>> worked out before the next battle was started.
>>
>> Is everyone ready? <-- This could have made all the difference.
>> No, can't you see we're arguing?!?
>>
>> It seems there were many screw ups here. It was a bad situation that got
>> worse. Well, hopefully a few people learned a few things.
>
>On this subject, I pugged again yesterday.
>Last boss dropped a polearm, and this time I kindly asked everyone if it
>was ok for me to need on that. I hadn't finished typing the questions
>that the three DK on the party had already needed on the polearm.
>Oh, and the first boss dropped a mace. Dwarf need roll it, wins and
>leaves the group a second after. ("I am the macemaster!", lol)
The ramparts polearm from the end boss should quite happily take a
Death Knight into Northrend. It's clearly a DK type weapon and also
good for a dps warrior and a ret Pally. There's no real question that
any of those classes have a legit "need" for that polearm.
Knowing your own class is good but it really does help to know all the
other classes too.
Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
nuts
You're missing the point here.
We were discussing about politely ask the rest of the party before roll
needing anything that may be useful to others.
nuts
> In <e7pte5p4ss9cc2ko4...@4ax.com> Brent Stroh <bms...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I generally subscribe to the "need if it's an upgrade" idea. And from what
>> I've seen, it's not uncommon for non-tank warriors to mix in leather and
>> mail based on the stats - as you've said, DPS generally aren't looking for
>> +armor. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with you rolling in this
>> case.
>
> In my opinion, it depends how courteous you want to be to your fellow
> players.
>
> A courteous hunter will always defer to a rogue on leather items, because
> leather is a rogue's *only* option. You're taking away the only thing
> they can wear. You can wear mail; rogues can't. You have other options;
> the rogue has none.
A leather item that can greatly improve my stats drops and I shouldn't
roll on it because it's likely that:
a - a mail item with similar stats exists
b - will drop sometime in the future
c - if a and b happens, no other mail wearing classes will need roll on it
Doesn't seem like an option to me.
> Forgive me for making an analogy, but it's a little like going to a
> restaurant and ordering a meal, and then taking extra food off someone
> else's plate. You have your own plate (mail armor); leave theirs (leather
> armor) alone.
Well, if you never receive your plate, you may be entitled to do that :-)
Urbin
> In the case of a weapon, as a hunter you can need any *ranged* weapon
> that's an upgrade (uh, not thrown btw - you can use throwing weapons I
> believe, but most your abilities don't work with them last I checked
> ;-)), but if you want a melee weapon, make sure its stats are good for
> you (agility, attack power, NOT strength - no warrior/DK will
> appreciate losing their uber +strength weapon to a hunter) - melee
> weapons are about stats for ranged classes, so just ignore the dps
> listed on it, since you shouldn't be meleeing that much.
>
> Btw if a melee class rolls on your ranged weapon they're being rude -
> I've always played my rogue with the idea that a ranged weapon is a
> stat stick, not a major weapon, so should a hunter need it, it's only
> polite to let them take it - if they don't it's fair game but I'd
> never roll against a hunter for it. Likewise on my hunter, with melee
> weapons I'd only roll against a melee class if it was a massive
> upgrade to me, and preferably using stats that benefit me more than
> them; if it's marginal then it's more polite to let the class who'll
> benefit most from it take it.
>
> Probably others see it differently to me but those are the rules I use
> for myself anyway.
That's excactly how I handle things, too.
Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Dwarven Hunter | Surana (64), Draenei Mage
Mymule (80), Gnomish Warlock | Kordosch (65), Human Death Knight
Sunh (79), Nightelven Priest | Juran (33), Nightelven Druid
steve.kaye
>
> >> On this subject, I pugged again yesterday.
> >> Last boss dropped a polearm, and this time I kindly asked everyone if it
> >> was ok for me to need on that. I hadn't finished typing the questions
> >> that the three DK on the party had already needed on the polearm.
> >> Oh, and the first boss dropped a mace. Dwarf need roll it, wins and
> >> leaves the group a second after. ("I am the macemaster!", lol)
>
> > The ramparts polearm from the end boss should quite happily take a
> > Death Knight into Northrend. It's clearly a DK type weapon and also
> > good for a dps warrior and a ret Pally. There's no real question that
> > any of those classes have a legit "need" for that polearm.
>
> You're missing the point here.
> We were discussing about politely ask the rest of the party before roll
> needing anything that may be useful to others.
I think that it's more about politely asking the rest of the party
before need rolling on anything that may be *more* useful to others.
That polearm is perfect for Death Knights of all specs other than dual
wield and is probably good enough to convert a dual wielder into a two
handed weapon user. It can't be more useful to anyone else so there
is little point to discussing it.
The belt from the original post was useful to you but was more useful
to a rogue so qualified for some discussion.
Having said that, I'm too polite and always ask if I can need an item
even if there are no other people who could make more use of it.
steve.kaye
nuts
> I think that it's more about politely asking the rest of the party
> before need rolling on anything that may be *more* useful to others.
> That polearm is perfect for Death Knights of all specs other than dual
> wield and is probably good enough to convert a dual wielder into a two
> handed weapon user. It can't be more useful to anyone else so there
> is little point to discussing it.
Right. So anyone of the three DKs should have at least asked the other
two. Didn't happen.
Matt
> Right. So anyone of the three DKs should have at least asked the other
> two. Didn't happen.
You really don't see the difference? Melee weapon is secondary gear
for hunter, as it's only stat bonus item. For DKs it's their primary
source of damage - it's "default" that they roll for it.
Reverse the situation - you see a bow with extremely good dps and
warrior rolls for it because "it has more stamina than his gun". Would
you think it's fair? If yes, I hope I don't meet you in a dungeon.
--
Regards
Matt
steve.kaye
No, because all three had equal right to the item so their permission
to roll need isn't needed.
What would have happened if one of them asked permission to need and
the others said 'no'? What good reason could they give to deny
permission? About the only good reason possible would be that it's a
bigger upgrade for one than it is for another. This is usually a
factor within a group of friends but isn't a factor in a PuG of
strangers. Also, as these are all Death Knights they will have done
the exact same quests to get to where they were they are quite likely
to be wielding the same weapon as each other.
steve.kaye
Catriona R
>I think it was nuts <nusp...@re.net> that wrote something like...
>>On this subject, I pugged again yesterday.
>>Last boss dropped a polearm, and this time I kindly asked everyone if it
>>was ok for me to need on that. I hadn't finished typing the questions
>>that the three DK on the party had already needed on the polearm.
>>Oh, and the first boss dropped a mace. Dwarf need roll it, wins and
>>leaves the group a second after. ("I am the macemaster!", lol)
>
>The ramparts polearm from the end boss should quite happily take a
>Death Knight into Northrend. It's clearly a DK type weapon and also
>good for a dps warrior and a ret Pally. There's no real question that
>any of those classes have a legit "need" for that polearm.
>
>Knowing your own class is good but it really does help to know all the
>other classes too.
I'd also suggest learning your own class's stats as well; on looking
at the stats on that polearm there's no way the OP should've been
rolling anyway - strength for a hunter? No agility, not even any
attack power? Yeah it has crit but that does not make it a hunter
weapon by any means; a green "of the bandit" item would be far better.
A hunter taking that over 3 deathknights would only result in more
ninja accusations, and quite justifiably from their point of view,
since it gives the hunter almost no benefit.
Lancelet
news:7lif1hF...@mid.individual.net:
> I'd also suggest learning your own class's stats as well; on looking
> at the stats on that polearm there's no way the OP should've been
> rolling anyway - strength for a hunter? No agility, not even any
> attack power? Yeah it has crit but that does not make it a hunter
> weapon by any means; a green "of the bandit" item would be far better.
> A hunter taking that over 3 deathknights would only result in more
> ninja accusations, and quite justifiably from their point of view,
> since it gives the hunter almost no benefit.
Agree. And if you want a nice polearm for your hunter, there is this one in
Zangarmarsh, given by Gzhun'tt in Sporeggar. The quest is to kill nagas,
and you will get the Survivalist's Pike :
+21 Agility
+30 Stamina
+20 Intellect
Equip: Increases attack power by 40
I kept mine until I get sonic spear from Murmur at 70.
Ashen Shugar
The point is actually that it's polite to ask before rolling on
something that's not "designed" for your class even if it would be an
upgrade for you.
The best example I can think of actually comes from a while back when
the game was different. For a while, there was gear that had +healing
spell power on it with 1/3rd the value of the +healing as +spell
damage. So it's pretty obvious that items with that stat on it was
for healers. Of course, it was still possible, especially with a
person just starting to gear up with outland gear, for a +healing item
to have more +spell damage on it than what someone already had. In
such a case, while the item might have been an upgrade for say a mage
or other such dps caster class, the healers really should have had
first dibs on it. And in such a situation, the mage would ask if the
healer wanted the item or not before rolling on it.
Things aren't quite as clear as that now. But there are still
indicators. As has been mentioned, if some armour is of a lower type
than a classes highest type, then it's not really "designed" for that
class and it's polite to ask before rolling on it. Warriors and
rogues mostly just use their ranged slot item for stats while a hunter
get's their primary dps from it, so many ranged weapons are designed
for them, not warriors and rogues. And then pretty much anything with
+defense on it is designed for a tanking class, so while it may have
+hit on it and some other goodies that could even make it an upgrade
for a rogue, or a hunter, it's not "designed" for them, so it's only
polite for them to pass on it if the tank wants it.
Urbin
Same here. And I entered northrend carrying the Sonic Spear.
twk
nuts <nusp...@re.net> wrote:
> John Gordon wrote:
> > In <e7pte5p4ss9cc2ko4...@4ax.com> Brent Stroh
> > <bms...@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> I generally subscribe to the "need if it's an upgrade" idea. And from
> >> what
> >> I've seen, it's not uncommon for non-tank warriors to mix in leather and
> >> mail based on the stats - as you've said, DPS generally aren't looking for
> >> +armor. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with you rolling in this
> >> case.
> >
> > In my opinion, it depends how courteous you want to be to your fellow
> > players.
> >
> > A courteous hunter will always defer to a rogue on leather items, because
> > leather is a rogue's *only* option. You're taking away the only thing
> > they can wear. You can wear mail; rogues can't. You have other options;
> > the rogue has none.
>
> A leather item that can greatly improve my stats drops and I shouldn't
> roll on it because it's likely that:
>
> a - a mail item with similar stats exists
> b - will drop sometime in the future
> c - if a and b happens, no other mail wearing classes will need roll on it
>
> Doesn't seem like an option to me.
Anyone can do anything one wants to do.
You can piss people off a lot and no one will group with you.
You can piss people off a lot and get a reputation.
You can piss people off and maybe get kicked from a great guild.
You and avoid pissing people off and get a slightly different reputation.
You can avoid pissing people off and count on help from those friends in
the future.
You can avoid pissing people off and get invited to a great guild.
It's up to you. Do what you want. It's not rocket science.
It's more like common sense but I don't think that exists.
We've all met both extremes. Which do you want to be? Play accordingly.
--
Hypanthia, Night Elf, Shadow Priest, Enchantress/Herbalist.
Cowpattee, Tauren, Druid, Enchantress/Herbalist.
Brian C
> I've been putting up with OE's crap. Not ONCE have they ever fixed
> broken quoting, sigs, etc. NEVER. MS don't give a shit. Never have.
I was being sarcastic; I just don't have a better alternative than OE
(especially at work).