Microsoft 1st/2nd party developers
Pete Calderwood
like they mean business :)
First some basic definitions...
A first party developer is completely part of a console development
company. Basically financially supported, controlled, and published by
Microsoft.
A second party developer is part owned by a specific console producing
company but is not financially supported by that company. The 2nd
party developer has creative control over their product, but the
parent company (Microsoft), which will publish the product, may have
some input.
1st party
--
1. Adrenium Games
2. Artoon: Ex-Sonic team workers making Jap. XBOX mascot
3. Blitz Games
4. Bungie Software
Makers of Marathon and Myth on PC and Mac
5. Curly Monsters
Ex-Psygnosis makers of Wipeout
6. Digital Anvil
Chris "Wing Commander" Roberts team, also makers of Dungeon Siege,
Starlancer and Freelancer
7. Double Fine Productions
Tim *Maniac mansion* Schafer's squad, also Grim Fandango Squad, all
from Lucasarts
8. Ensemble Studios
Age of Empires series
9. Fasa Interactive
Makers of Shadowrun on SNES/Genesis, controllers of Mechwarrior
franchise
10. Microsoft Games
11. Microsoft Japan
Teams that did Ape Escape, Legend of Dragoon, Legend of Legaia, Wild
Arms, headed by the Producer of Dark Cloud
12. Pseudo Interactive
13. Radical Entertainment
14. Vision Scape Interactive
15. Yeti Interactive
2nd party
--
1. Artificial Mind + Movement
2. Big Blue Box Studios
Lionhead Sattelite who were at Bullfrog on the Syndicate series
3. Bizarre Creations
F1 series on Playstation (Psygnosis)
Metropolis Street Racer
4. Boss Game Studios
Top Gear Rally on N64, Spider on Playstation
5. Climax Development
6. Digital Illusions
7. Dream Factory
8. Tobal Number one and two
9. High Voltage Software
10. Intrepid Computer Entertainment
Lionhead Sattelite, at Bullfrog with Peter Molyneux, worked on Magic
Carpet and Dungeon Keeper
11. KnowWonder
12. Kodiak Interactive
13. Meyer/Glass Interactive
14. Oddworld Inhabitants
Oddworld series
15. Pipeworks Software
Artists, designers, and programmers from "Tribes," "Pro Pilot,"
"Populous," "Aces," and "3D Ultra," "Front Page Sports," and "Coaster"
16. Rainbow Studio
ATV offroad fury on the PS2, Motorcross Madness on PC
17. Stormfront Studios
Madden 98, Tommy Lasorda Baseball on Genesis and PC, and Nascar 98 and
99
18. Totally Games
Xwing vs Tie Fighter
1942: Battle of Britain
19. Tremor Entertainment
Employees from Starcraft, FFVII and FVIII and Diablo dev teams
20. Universal Interactive
Crash Bandicoot X
21. VR-1 Entertainment
22. Argonaut Games plc has produced numerous hit games such as "Croc:
The Legend of the Gobbos," and new technologies such as the Super FX
chip. (The super FX chip was what made the original Star Fox possible
on the Super Nes) and yes it was these guys who made the original
Starfox with Miyamoto doing the design.
23. Just Add Monsters Ltd. (JAM), based in Cambridge, England, was
founded and is staffed by former Sony Computer Entertainment
developers whose respective artistic, development and design talents
have been instrumental in the production of numerous blockbuster
titles, including "MediEvil," "MediEvil2" and "Frogger."
24. Mesa Logic Inc., located in a suburb of Dallas, has developed such
arcade hits as "Area 51," "Maximum Force" and "Site 4," each published
by Atari Games Corp. The three award-winning games went on to set
sales records in the arcade industry.
25. Presto Studios Inc. was founded in 1991 in San Diego. Presto has
grown into a cutting-edge entertainment software development company
known for its engaging, photo-realistic games, including "Myst III:
Exile" and the Journeyman Project series of time travel adventures.
26. Studio Gigante Inc., in Chicago, has produced such games as the
widely popular "Mortal Kombat" and WWF series, "NBA Showtime 2000" and
"NFL Blitz 2000
Dai miei incubi e nei miei sogni -
Un' Esistenza Rovinata...
Pete Calderwood
instead of a game made by Dream Factory (DF devs also worked on Virtua
Fighter, Tekken, and The Bouncer btw). So there are 25 2nd party
devs, not 26. Still quite a lineup. Oh, and thx to Daidream for the
list.
Dai miei incubi e nei miei sogni -
Un' Esistenza Rovinata...
Joe Ottoson
Pete Calderwood <rui...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hq9lrtorqsj9k1rdb...@4ax.com...
> Just in case you were curious who Microsoft currently owns... Looks
> like they mean business :)
>
> First some basic definitions...
>
> A first party developer is completely part of a console development
> company. Basically financially supported, controlled, and published by
> Microsoft.
>
> A second party developer is part owned by a specific console producing
> company but is not financially supported by that company. The 2nd
> party developer has creative control over their product, but the
> parent company (Microsoft), which will publish the product, may have
> some input.
If MS has a 20% stake in a company, they don't own them.
> 1st party
> --
> 1. Adrenium Games
> 2. Artoon: Ex-Sonic team workers making Jap. XBOX mascot
> 3. Blitz Games
PCish titles.
> 4. Bungie Software
> Makers of Marathon and Myth on PC and Mac
PCish titles.
> 5. Curly Monsters
> Ex-Psygnosis makers of Wipeout
Ex makers of Goldeneye made TimeSplitters. Doesn't say much in of itself.
> 6. Digital Anvil
> Chris "Wing Commander" Roberts team, also makers of Dungeon Siege,
> Starlancer and Freelancer
More PCish games.
> 7. Double Fine Productions
> Tim *Maniac mansion* Schafer's squad, also Grim Fandango Squad, all
> from Lucasarts
PCish.
> 8. Ensemble Studios
> Age of Empires series
PC appeal...
> 9. Fasa Interactive
> Makers of Shadowrun on SNES/Genesis, controllers of Mechwarrior
> franchise
PC.
> 10. Microsoft Games
PC.
> 11. Microsoft Japan
> Teams that did Ape Escape, Legend of Dragoon, Legend of Legaia, Wild
> Arms, headed by the Producer of Dark Cloud
They get around. They don't make a very good product, but they get around.
> 12. Pseudo Interactive
> 13. Radical Entertainment
> 14. Vision Scape Interactive
> 15. Yeti Interactive
PC.
> 2nd party
> --
> 1. Artificial Mind + Movement
>
> 2. Big Blue Box Studios
> Lionhead Sattelite who were at Bullfrog on the Syndicate series
PC.
> 3. Bizarre Creations
> F1 series on Playstation (Psygnosis)
> Metropolis Street Racer
Two console friendly developers so far...
> 4. Boss Game Studios
> Top Gear Rally on N64, Spider on Playstation
Bad console developer.
> 5. Climax Development
Drew a lot of early hype on the DC. Never really delivered.
> 6. Digital Illusions
> 7. Dream Factory
> 8 < Tobal Number one and two
!!!
Tobal's not a company. They also made the Bouncer. They've sharply slipped
in recent years.
> 8. High Voltage Software
Meh.
> 10. Intrepid Computer Entertainment
> Lionhead Sattelite, at Bullfrog with Peter Molyneux, worked on Magic
> Carpet and Dungeon Keeper
Wow. Solid console titles all!
> 11. KnowWonder
> 12. Kodiak Interactive
> 13. Meyer/Glass Interactive
Might as well have saved their money. Kodiak especially is evil.
> 14. Oddworld Inhabitants
> Oddworld series
That's all.
> 15. Pipeworks Software
> Artists, designers, and programmers from "Tribes," "Pro Pilot,"
> "Populous," "Aces," and "3D Ultra," "Front Page Sports," and "Coaster"
PC game maker.
> 16. Rainbow Studio
> ATV offroad fury on the PS2, Motorcross Madness on PC
Apparently not very well wrapped up by the company that "owns" them.
> 17. Stormfront Studios
> Madden 98, Tommy Lasorda Baseball on Genesis and PC, and Nascar 98 and
> 99
EA plugin.
> 18. Totally Games
> Xwing vs Tie Fighter
> 1942: Battle of Britain
Great games... On the PC.
> 19. Tremor Entertainment
> Employees from Starcraft, FFVII and FVIII and Diablo dev teams
Meh.
> 20. Universal Interactive
> Crash Bandicoot X
Sony owns Naughty dog. This is a very strange list Pete. Most here are 3rd
party, not 2nd.
> 21. VR-1 Entertainment
PC game maker. Another on the pile.
> 22. Argonaut Games plc has produced numerous hit games such as "Croc:
> The Legend of the Gobbos," and new technologies such as the Super FX
> chip. (The super FX chip was what made the original Star Fox possible
> on the Super Nes) and yes it was these guys who made the original
> Starfox with Miyamoto doing the design.
They canceled their first Xbox attempt too.
> 23. Just Add Monsters Ltd. (JAM), based in Cambridge, England, was
> founded and is staffed by former Sony Computer Entertainment
> developers whose respective artistic, development and design talents
> have been instrumental in the production of numerous blockbuster
> titles, including "MediEvil," "MediEvil2" and "Frogger."
Meh heh.
> 24. Mesa Logic Inc., located in a suburb of Dallas, has developed such
> arcade hits as "Area 51," "Maximum Force" and "Site 4," each published
> by Atari Games Corp. The three award-winning games went on to set
> sales records in the arcade industry.
Wow. they bought 5% of them? Ouch. Quality has nothing to do with their
products.
> 25. Presto Studios Inc. was founded in 1991 in San Diego. Presto has
> grown into a cutting-edge entertainment software development company
> known for its engaging, photo-realistic games, including "Myst III:
> Exile" and the Journeyman Project series of time travel adventures.
PC. *toss*
> 26. Studio Gigante Inc., in Chicago, has produced such games as the
> widely popular "Mortal Kombat" and WWF series, "NBA Showtime 2000" and
> "NFL Blitz 2000
Widely popu... *ahem* The Last WWF game they made tanked so hard another was
never made.
Joe Ottoson
> Made a mistake there, accidently numbered Tobal 1 and 2 as a dev
> instead of a game made by Dream Factory (DF devs also worked on Virtua
> Fighter, Tekken, and The Bouncer btw). So there are 25 2nd party
> devs, not 26. Still quite a lineup. Oh, and thx to Daidream for the
> list.
Except that most 2nd party developers aren't controlled by MS or exclusive
so they're really 3rd party. Universal doens't even have the Crash Team
anymore...
ProjectBlackcomb
that all out. Microsoft has quite an impressive list of talent to help the
Xbox succeed. Very cool indeed.
Leon Dexter
I don't think you can count Rainbow Studios as a second party; they are
making PS2 games as well (Splashdown). Their Xbox titles being published by
Microsoft does not make them a second party, any more than their PS2 titles
being published by SCEA makes them a second party to Sony.
They make good stuff, though, so they're a good addition to any list of
developers.
Pete Calderwood
wrote:
>I don't think you can count Rainbow Studios as a second party; they are
>making PS2 games as well (Splashdown). Their Xbox titles being published by
>Microsoft does not make them a second party, any more than their PS2 titles
>being published by SCEA makes them a second party to Sony.
>They make good stuff, though, so they're a good addition to any list of
>developers.
I don't know... Microsoft released their name in a list with 18 other
studios that makes them sound like a 2nd party. I'll list the PR
below:
Microsoft Assembles Top Development Talent to Create Games for Xbox
Peter Molyneux’s Lionhead Satellites, Universal Interactive Studios,
Stormfront Studios,
Kodiak Interactive Software Studios, Totally Games and Others Sign On
To Create Xbox Games Under the Microsoft Label
LONDON — Sept. 1, 2000 — Microsoft Corp. today announced that it has
signed some of the best game development talent to create exclusive
content for the Xbox video game console under the Microsoft® label.
Microsoft unveiled a list of 18 development studios, including United
Kingdom-based Lionhead Satellites, prior to the opening of the annual
European Computer Trade Show (ECTS) in London.
“By providing the industry’s best game developers with Xbox’s
future-generation technology and familiar tools today, Microsoft is
ensuring intense, action-packed Xbox experiences for gamers at
launch,” said Ed Fries, vice president of games publishing at
Microsoft. “As always, we will work closely with our development
partners to provide them with the resources and support they need to
create a broad portfolio of great Xbox games for Microsoft.”
With the first wave of developer tools just released, Xbox is rapidly
gaining popularity among leading game designers. Xbox is slated for a
worldwide release in fall 2001.
“Lionhead is committed to creating games that push the boundaries of
creativity and technology,” said Peter Molyneux, president and founder
of Lionhead Satellites. “As a game developer, the PC has always been
the platform of choice due to its ability to provide the best tools
and technology to work with. We have elected to develop content for
Xbox for two key reasons: its revolutionary technology is the best to
come to market, and Xbox is the only game console based on an
architecture we are already familiar with, which allows us to focus on
what we do best — bring our creative visions to life.”
In addition to Lionhead Satellites, Microsoft has enlisted the
expertise of several U.S. and European development studios to create
Xbox titles. These include Stormfront Studios, creator of the popular
“NASCAR” series and “Madden Football” games published by Electronic
Arts Inc.; Kodiak Interactive Software Studios Inc., best known for
the “WCW Mayhem” series published by Electronic Arts; Totally Games
Inc., founded by industry veteran Lawrence Holland (creator of the
best-selling “X-Wing” series for LucasArts Entertainment Co.); Rainbow
Studios, renowned for the “Motocross Madness®” titles; and Universal
Interactive Studios, which has had great success on the console to
date with character-based games such as “Crash Bandicoot” and “Spyro
the Dragon.”
The list of development studios creating Xbox content under the
Microsoft label include the following:
· Lionhead Satellites
· Universal Interactive Studios
· Stormfront Studios
· Kodiak Interactive Software Studios Inc.
· Totally Games
· Rainbow Studios
· Artificial Mind and Movement
· Boss Game Studios
· Climax Group
· Digital Illusions
· High Voltage Software
· KnowWonder Digital MediaWorks
· Meyer/Glass Interactive
· Pipeworks Software Inc.
· Pseudo Interactive Inc.
· Tremor Entertainment
· VR×1 Entertainment
In addition to allying with independent development studios, Microsoft
also intends to continue to expand its internal pool of development
talent across all game genres. The recent acquisition of Bungie
Software Corp. increased Microsoft’s internal games group to more than
700 designers, programmers, testers and producers.
Over the next few months, Microsoft expects to announce additional
details on its Xbox titles currently in development as well as other
developer alliances.
About Microsoft Games
Microsoft’s Games Division is recognized as one of the world’s leading
games businesses in four key areas: PC and Xbox game development and
publishing, Zone.com, SideWinder® game devices, and Xbox video game
console. Microsoft games developed and published for the PC and Xbox
platforms target hard-core gamers and casual players. Zone.com
(http://www.zone.com/) is the Internet’s largest game site, and
SideWinder is the best-selling brand of game devices in the world.
Xbox is Microsoft’s future-generation video game machine scheduled to
ship fall 2001.
About Microsoft
Founded in 1975, Microsoft (Nasdaq “MSFT”) is the worldwide leader in
software, services and Internet technologies for personal and business
computing. The company offers a wide range of products and services
designed to empower people through great software —
any time, any place and on any device.
Zackman
game in Joe's mind. Apparently you'd rather play any tired old tedious
Japanese RPG or button-mashing fighting game than anything that smacks of
originality or quality. Goldeneye is a PC game? Mech games and space sims
are somehow inherently PC-ish? How is Dungeon Siege a PC game and Dark Cloud
isn't? Just because the hero isn't a big-eyed anime character who has to
endlessly collect objects scattered around the world? Cel Damage is a PC
game?? NFL Blitz and Sonic team are PC-ish? And what about Monkey Island,
Max Payne, Red Faction, Half-Life, Unreal Tournament, Quake III, Soldier of
Fortune and all the other PC games on the PS2? (All but one a shooter, one
of the hardest genres to transer to a console in the first place.)
Man, if none of those can be considered console games in your world, then
I'd hate to see your game library. And I take it you won't be getting Ace
Combat 4 for the PS2 after all, since a flight combat game is obviously
PC-ish. Too bad... based on your recommendation, I went and looked it up and
it does indeed look awesome.
Incidentally Pete, re: your list, Dungeon Siege is Chris Taylor and Gas
Powered Games, not Chris Roberts and Digital Anvil. Still a 1st party title
tho.
-Z-
Joe Ottoson wrote:
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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Pete Calderwood
immediately following my first post, but apparently did not go
through. That is, I accidently numbered Tobal as a dev instead of a
game. FYI, the company that worked on Tobal (Dream Factory) is made
up of devs that also worked on Virtua Fighter, Tekken, and The
Bouncer.
Second, Joe seems to have a problem with his definition of 2nd party.
He said stuff like Sony owns Naughty Dog, referring to Crash Bandicoot
X, who Universal had a hand in. First of all, the games listed under
each company referred to the games that the companies listed worked on
in the past, not current XBOX projects. Second of all, a 2nd party
developer by definition is a developer that is only partly owned by
the company whose console they are developing for (Microsoft). They
are not, however, financially supported by that company, and therefore
not restricted to making games for only that company's platform.
Being a 2nd party developer, however, gives Microsoft some control
over their final product on XBOX, and ensures that these companies
will be delivering some titles that are exclusive to XBOX. A 3rd
party developer is a studio which the console maker does not own any
part of nor does it have any control over, but that developer is still
making games for the console maker. None of the 25 2nd party studios
I listed would fall under this category.
Third, I agree his bashing of "PC Companys" is laughable, when some of
the best PS2 games are PC games, or PC like in nautre. In addition,
it would make sense for Microsoft to acquire PC companies to program
new XBOX games since they would be the most familiar with the API that
Microsoft offers, DirectX. What makes his PC comments even more funny
is that some of the teams listed here are teams that made PC gaming
popular in the first place, namely a lot of LucasArts talent. Being
that the primary PC game market has shifted over from adventure/RPG
games to FPS and RTS games, it would make sense that these legendary
PC adventure devs would shift their focus to a console.
All in all, it's an outstanding list, totalling up to 40 1st/2nd party
devs.
* Thx to Daidream
Dai miei incubi e nei miei sogni -
Un' Esistenza Rovinata...
Joe Ottoson
Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
news:B7E0ABE1.177A8%zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net...
> ROTFL. Apparently anything that's not a 2D fighting game is considered a
PC
> game in Joe's mind.
Nope. PC games are. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm saying they will not
sell Xboxes to the target audience. (Anticipated ZM's response... "Gasp!
Console buyers!?! How do they apply in the console market?")
Apparently you'd rather play any tired old tedious
> Japanese RPG or button-mashing fighting game than anything that smacks of
> originality or quality.
Half the devs listed make RTS games. Is that supposed to be "Fresh?" How
about elements of Lucasarts? Is a new adventure game "Fresh"? Flight sims
are "Fresh"? Do you even understand the meaning of the word?
> Goldeneye is a PC game? Mech games and space sims
> are somehow inherently PC-ish?
Look at where their orgins are. Look at how many straight sims are on the
consoles. Look how they sell. They're a PC only food.
How is Dungeon Siege a PC game and Dark Cloud
> isn't?
Play them. There's a difference.
Just because the hero isn't a big-eyed anime character who has to
> endlessly collect objects scattered around the world?
More because the game has only the slightest focus at all. That approach
doesn't do much for console gamers historically. Sorry if that upsets you
so.
Cel Damage is a PC
> game??
Now you're just ranting. Look what I wrote. Where did I say Cel Damage was a
PC game?
>NFL Blitz and Sonic team are PC-ish?
You're not reading again. I never said they were PCish. If you have to
invent lies to refute my arguments, you really don't do much for your cause,
and you look like a raving fanboy.
I said the Blitz team is responsible for one of the greatest atrocities
ever. Their WWF games.
And what about Monkey Island,
> Max Payne, Red Faction, Half-Life, Unreal Tournament, Quake III, Soldier
of
> Fortune and all the other PC games on the PS2? (All but one a shooter, one
> of the hardest genres to transer to a console in the first place.)
It's bulk that's the issue. There's way more Pc developer support on the
Xbox. Not even you can deny this. I'm not saying the Xbox is a portbox
either you twit. ;) What I said is that the Xbox will get more games that
appeal to PC market interests, but those games will not carry over into the
console market like MS seems to think they will.
> Man, if none of those can be considered console games in your world, then
> I'd hate to see your game library.
You probably would since you hate fighting games. It's probably an
unpardonable sin in your eyes that I own a Neo Geo.
And I take it you won't be getting Ace
> Combat 4 for the PS2 after all, since a flight combat game is obviously
> PC-ish.
Ace Combat's a flight si... Bwahhhahaaa!
> Incidentally Pete, re: your list, Dungeon Siege is Chris Taylor and Gas
> Powered Games, not Chris Roberts and Digital Anvil. Still a 1st party
title
> tho.
Pete's list wasn't very accurate all around.
Joe Ottoson
> First I wanted to say that I did make a mistake, which I corrected
> immediately following my first post, but apparently did not go
> through. That is, I accidently numbered Tobal as a dev instead of a
> game. FYI, the company that worked on Tobal (Dream Factory) is made
> up of devs that also worked on Virtua Fighter, Tekken, and The
> Bouncer.
Key emphasis on The Bouncer. Their prior effort was dismal as well. They're
a long way removed from their glory years (much less Tekken or VF) these
days. Enough mindless propaganda.
> Second, Joe seems to have a problem with his definition of 2nd party.
> He said stuff like Sony owns Naughty Dog, referring to Crash Bandicoot
> X, who Universal had a hand in. First of all, the games listed under
> each company referred to the games that the companies listed worked on
> in the past, not current XBOX projects.
If Naughty Dog is gone, you cannot count Crash X to Universal's credit as
they had nothing to do with the programming or design there. Naughty Dog
essentially was Universal. You really should've used the immensely popular
title, Running Wild instead. Far more accurate.
Second of all, a 2nd party
> developer by definition is a developer that is only partly owned by
> the company whose console they are developing for (Microsoft). They
> are not, however, financially supported by that company, and therefore
> not restricted to making games for only that company's platform.
Even then, your definition's broken.
> Third, I agree his bashing of "PC Companys" is laughable, when some of
> the best PS2 games are PC games, or PC like in nautre.
Best sellers? Or just the broken definition of "best" that converted PC
gamers seem to think applies 1:1 with the tastes of console gamers the world
over?
In addition,
> it would make sense for Microsoft to acquire PC companies to program
> new XBOX games since they would be the most familiar with the API that
> Microsoft offers, DirectX. What makes his PC comments even more funny
> is that some of the teams listed here are teams that made PC gaming
> popular in the first place, namely a lot of LucasArts talent.
What's funny (doubly so) is that you failed to mention is that their success
never carried over into the console market and there are no signs that it
will. Odd that.
Leon Dexter
> studios that makes them sound like a 2nd party. I'll list the PR
> below:
>
There are several developers in that list (still below) that are still
developing games for other consoles. I don't think a company can be counted
as a 2nd party unless they only develop for one company's console(s) (ie.
Rare for Nintendo, Polyphony for Sony) and also answer to that company in
some way. This list is simply a list of developers who are having Microsoft
publish their Xbox titles, which is a very smart thing for Microsoft to do,
as it practically removes the financial risk involved for these companies to
develop for an unproven console.
This is not an unheard-of practice in this market, though we've never seen
it on this scale. Sony and Sega both published Battle Arena Toshinden for
Takara, for the Playstation and Saturn respectively. That doesn't mean
Takara is/was a second party to either of them.
Sony also published ATV Offroad Fury for Rainbow, and will probably publish
Splashdown from them as well. Microsoft will publish their Xbox content
(which games are they making for Xbox, anyway, I haven't heard a whisper
beyond they are developing...) They are still a third-party, and can make
games for whichever system they choose.
Harry Al-Shakarchi
Pete Calderwood <rui...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Second, Joe seems to have a problem with his definition of 2nd party.
Joe has problems with a lot of definitions. He doesn't believe Survival
Horror to be a genre. ::snicker::
--
Harry "TomeOne" Al-Shakarchi | tomeone at bungie dot org
Zackman
arguments like this just die out rather than waste any more time with them.
But if it's that important for you to have my approval...
Joe Ottoson wrote:
> Half the devs listed make RTS games. Is that supposed to be "Fresh?" How
> about elements of Lucasarts? Is a new adventure game "Fresh"? Flight sims
> are "Fresh"? Do you even understand the meaning of the word?
I don't understand what you're saying here, due more to the fact I've
half-forgotten what we were talking about than your usual degree of
incoherence. It seems like you're saying these genres can't be fresh, but
that can't be the case because you love fighting games, all of which are
slight variations on a very narrow genre. Sorry if I'm missing the point.
> Look at where their orgins are. Look at how many straight sims are on the
> consoles. Look how they sell. They're a PC only food.
What is Mechwarrior a simulation of, exactly? Do you own your own giant
fighting robot? I understand your point, but you seem to be saying that only
games which lack depth and complexity are suitable for a console. I don't
think you're giving console buyers enough credit.
>> How is Dungeon Siege a PC game and Dark Cloud
>> isn't?
>
> Play them. There's a difference.
I own Dark Cloud and I've played an early build of Dungeon Siege. I would
much rather play Dungeon Siege because Dark Cloud is a variation on the same
tedious Japanese RPG formula I've played a million times before. Given a
choice, I'd probably rather play Dungeon Siege on a PC than a console, but
I'd rather play Dungeon Siege on ANYTHING than play Dark Cloud again.
> More because the game has only the slightest focus at all. That approach
> doesn't do much for console gamers historically. Sorry if that upsets you
> so.
What you call focus I call tedium, and I'm sorry if that upsets you so. I
got a free copy of Okage and I immediately loaned it out to a friend,
because I simply don't understand the appeal in this type of object-hunting,
turn-based-battling, immature character RPG genre.
>> Cel Damage is a PC
>> game??
>
> Now you're just ranting. Look what I wrote. Where did I say Cel Damage was a
> PC game?
You listed five games and then said "PC" after them. Maybe you were only
referring to the last game in the list. If so, be more clear next time.
> You're not reading again. I never said they were PCish. If you have to
> invent lies to refute my arguments, you really don't do much for your cause,
> and you look like a raving fanboy.
No, it's you who looks like a raving fanboy, picking out one of every five
developers and labelling them or their game PC-ish. What about the other 80%
of the devs and titles?
> It's bulk that's the issue. There's way more Pc developer support on the
> Xbox. Not even you can deny this.
And I say: so what? What do you expect on a brand new console designed
around a PC-style architecture? Even with all this so-called PC developer
support, the Xbox launch line-up is far stronger than the PS2 launch line-up
was. Even you can't deny that. And if it sells well, every console developer
in the world will be scrambling to hop on board.
> What I said is that the Xbox will get more games that
> appeal to PC market interests, but those games will not carry over into the
> console market like MS seems to think they will.
You're confusing gamers like yourself with casual gamers, who make up the
bulk of game buyers. Casual gamers don't consciously distinguish between
markets. They don't go into an EB and say, "Oh, this game is by a PC
developer and thus will not embrace the console mentality I hold so dear."
They'll look at the box, watch the demo and say, "Hey, this looks like a fun
game! I think I'll get it!"
> You probably would since you hate fighting games. It's probably an
> unpardonable sin in your eyes that I own a Neo Geo.
No Joe. I'm not as closed-minded as you.
>> And I take it you won't be getting Ace
>> Combat 4 for the PS2 after all, since a flight combat game is obviously
>> PC-ish.
>
> Ace Combat's a flight si... Bwahhhahaaa!
Did I SAY flight sim??? I said it's a FLIGHT COMBAT GAME. God only knows how
that escapes your idea of "PC-ish". I'm surprised you don't call Twisted
Metal Black an automobile sim.
-Z-
p.s. If you want to continue this, start a new thread or something. I don't
want to keep going back into the dusty archives to see if I should be
responding to something.
Joe Ottoson
Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
> Is this the thread you were talking about Joe? I tend to let circular
> arguments like this just die out rather than waste any more time with
them.
Uh huh... That's why you rallied around survival horror "Just because that's
what it's called". Best look up the term "circular argument".
> Joe Ottoson wrote:
>
> > Half the devs listed make RTS games. Is that supposed to be "Fresh?" How
> > about elements of Lucasarts? Is a new adventure game "Fresh"? Flight
sims
> > are "Fresh"? Do you even understand the meaning of the word?
>
>It seems like you're saying these genres can't be fresh, but
> that can't be the case because you love fighting games, all of which are
> slight variations on a very narrow genre. Sorry if I'm missing the point.
You implied that somehow the PC developers were bringing about a new wave of
brand new games.
> > Look at where their orgins are. Look at how many straight sims are on
the
> > consoles. Look how they sell. They're a PC only food.
>
> What is Mechwarrior a simulation of, exactly? Do you own your own giant
> fighting robot? I understand your point, but you seem to be saying that
only
> games which lack depth and complexity are suitable for a console. I don't
> think you're giving console buyers enough credit.
Deer Hunter.
> >> How is Dungeon Siege a PC game and Dark Cloud
> >> isn't?
> >
> > Play them. There's a difference.
>
> I own Dark Cloud and I've played an early build of Dungeon Siege. I would
> much rather play Dungeon Siege because Dark Cloud is a variation on the
same
> tedious Japanese RPG formula I've played a million times before. Given a
> choice, I'd probably rather play Dungeon Siege on a PC than a console, but
> I'd rather play Dungeon Siege on ANYTHING than play Dark Cloud again.
You're not close minded eh? Ookaaayyyy....
> > More because the game has only the slightest focus at all. That approach
> > doesn't do much for console gamers historically. Sorry if that upsets
you
> > so.
>
> What you call focus I call tedium, and I'm sorry if that upsets you so.
Such razor wit!
> >> Cel Damage is a PC
> >> game??
> >
> > Now you're just ranting. Look what I wrote. Where did I say Cel Damage
was a
> > PC game?
>
> You listed five games and then said "PC" after them. Maybe you were only
> referring to the last game in the list. If so, be more clear next time.
Uh huh...
> > You're not reading again. I never said they were PCish. If you have to
> > invent lies to refute my arguments, you really don't do much for your
cause,
> > and you look like a raving fanboy.
>
> No, it's you who looks like a raving fanboy, picking out one of every five
> developers and labelling them or their game PC-ish. What about the other
80%
> of the devs and titles?
I covered all on the list.
> > It's bulk that's the issue. There's way more Pc developer support on the
> > Xbox. Not even you can deny this.
>
> And I say: so what? What do you expect on a brand new console designed
> around a PC-style architecture?
That. (Which is what worries me.)
Even with all this so-called PC developer
> support, the Xbox launch line-up is far stronger than the PS2 launch
line-up
> was.
Pity MS isn't launching last year then.
Even you can't deny that. And if it sells well, every console developer
> in the world will be scrambling to hop on board.
That's a whopping if.
> > What I said is that the Xbox will get more games that
> > appeal to PC market interests, but those games will not carry over into
the
> > console market like MS seems to think they will.
>
> You're confusing gamers like yourself with casual gamers, who make up the
> bulk of game buyers.
Hardly.
Casual gamers don't consciously distinguish between
> markets. They don't go into an EB and say, "Oh, this game is by a PC
> developer and thus will not embrace the console mentality I hold so dear."
> They'll look at the box, watch the demo and say, "Hey, this looks like a
fun
> game! I think I'll get it!"
Which is why they pass up PCish games are unable to articulate why.
> > You probably would since you hate fighting games. It's probably an
> > unpardonable sin in your eyes that I own a Neo Geo.
>
> No Joe. I'm not as closed-minded as you.
Sides of a coin.... At best.
> >> And I take it you won't be getting Ace
> >> Combat 4 for the PS2 after all, since a flight combat game is obviously
> >> PC-ish.
> >
> > Ace Combat's a flight si... Bwahhhahaaa!
>
> Did I SAY flight sim??? I said it's a FLIGHT COMBAT GAME. God only knows
how
> that escapes your idea of "PC-ish". I'm surprised you don't call Twisted
> Metal Black an automobile sim.
>
> -Z-
>
> p.s. If you want to continue this, start a new thread or something. I
don't
> want to keep going back into the dusty archives to see if I should be
> responding to something.
Get a better newsreader.
Zackman
> Uh huh... That's why you rallied around survival horror "Just because that's
> what it's called". Best look up the term "circular argument".
Oh yeah, I forgot that you were refusing to acknowledge survival horror a
genre, even though everyone else in the industry does. LOL. You a veddy
silly boy, Joseph.
> You implied that somehow the PC developers were bringing about a new wave of
> brand new games.
Uh, I never said that or intended to imply that simply being a PC developer
somehow means their products will be superior to non-PC developers. And it's
certainly possible to make a fresh game in an exsiting genre. Blood Wake,
Halo, Munch's, Amped, Cel Damage, Gotham ... all are part of existing genres
(tho I still can't quite classify Munch's), and all have the potential to be
fresh takes on said genres. BTW, with the exception of Halo, none of these
games is remotely PC-ish. And Halo works VERY well on the Xbox anyway.
> Deer Hunter.
What's your point? That some shitty games sell well because people don't
know any better? If anything, that should tell you not to underestimate the
Wal-Mart shopping average American consumer.
> You're not close minded eh? Ookaaayyyy....
Because I didn't care for Dark Cloud? Forgive me for having personal
preferences.
>> What you call focus I call tedium, and I'm sorry if that upsets you so.
>
> Such razor wit!
Uh, Joe, that's not wit. It's just a statement.
> I covered all on the list.
And you classified Pseudo Interactive, makers of Cel Damage, as PC. Make up
your mind.
>> And I say: so what? What do you expect on a brand new console designed
>> around a PC-style architecture?
>
> That. (Which is what worries me.)
ROTFL. Why do I find it hard to believe that this would worry you? You're
steadfastly anti-Xbox. Why do you care at all? If you're so convinced the
Xbox will be a spectacular failure, you ought to be dancing in the streets.
>> Even with all this so-called PC developer
>> support, the Xbox launch line-up is far stronger than the PS2 launch
>> line-up was.
>
> Pity MS isn't launching last year then.
So what you're saying is a new console has no chance of competing with an
earlier console that already has a solid line-up of games? Yeah, the
Dreamcast sure fended off the PS2, didn't it? And to pre-empt your response,
yes the PS2 -- unlike the Dreamcast in its day -- already has a huge
installed base that the Xbox and Gamecube must contend with. It could never
sell another unit again and still survive. Does that preclude any other
consoles from carving out a large enough market share to do well? Of course
not, especially with the launches coming more than a year apart. Newer =
better in the minds of many Wal-Mart shopping consumers, and lord knows
Xbox's marketing will key on that.
>> Even you can't deny that. And if it sells well, every console developer
>> in the world will be scrambling to hop on board.
>
> That's a whopping if.
Well duh. The Xbox is a huge unknown right now. Nobody disputes that.
> Which is why they pass up PCish games are unable to articulate why.
I think you're unable to articulate why you're so biased against so-called
"PC-ish" games which can still translate successfully to a console. For that
matter, you're unable to articulate what makes a game "PC-ish" in the first
place.
> Get a better newsreader.
I read messages threaded and sorted by date because I prefer it that way. It
has nothing to do with the newsreader.
-Z-
Ryan
<zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote:
>ROTFL. Apparently anything that's not a 2D fighting game is considered a PC
>game in Joe's mind.
Or also anything that's not from a so called high profile Japanese
developer is considered PCish. Which is totally warped.
>Apparently you'd rather play any tired old tedious
>Japanese RPG or button-mashing fighting game than anything that smacks of
>originality or quality.
Bingo. Right on target. Let me say for someone who's in their
mid-twenties and still clings to many turn based console RPG's (like
controlling anime-like sprite pigtail girls in a linear fashion is
waaaaaay freaky.
>Goldeneye is a PC game? Mech games and space sims
>are somehow inherently PC-ish? How is Dungeon Siege a PC game and Dark Cloud
>isn't? Just because the hero isn't a big-eyed anime character who has to
>endlessly collect objects scattered around the world? Cel Damage is a PC
He thinks Square and Enix is a sole determining factor to a consoles
success despite differences in markets. He grossly overestimates
importance of CRPG's here in North America. In terms of a console's
chance for success, it's not be-all end-all everywhere. Square play
significance in NA, but only to a degree.
>game?? NFL Blitz and Sonic team are PC-ish? And what about Monkey Island,
>Max Payne, Red Faction, Half-Life, Unreal Tournament, Quake III, Soldier of
>Fortune and all the other PC games on the PS2? (All but one a shooter, one
>of the hardest genres to transer to a console in the first place.)
Despite the large amount of PC2 PC ports, you won't hear him crow
about it at all. That's because Sony is his newly found lovesick now
that Sega pulled out of hardware.
>Man, if none of those can be considered console games in your world, then
>I'd hate to see your game library. And I take it you won't be getting Ace
He doesn't deserve to have his stack of games considered as a library.
It's more akin to charity.
Joe Ottoson
Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
> Joe Ottoson wrote:
>
> > Uh huh... That's why you rallied around survival horror "Just because
that's
> > what it's called". Best look up the term "circular argument".
>
> Oh yeah, I forgot that you were refusing to acknowledge survival horror a
> genre, even though everyone else in the industry does. LOL. You a veddy
> silly boy, Joseph.
Still waiting on a definition BTW. "Cause it is" isn't a reason.
> > You implied that somehow the PC developers were bringing about a new
wave of
> > brand new games.
>
> Uh, I never said that or intended to imply that simply being a PC
developer
> somehow means their products will be superior to non-PC developers. And
it's
> certainly possible to make a fresh game in an exsiting genre. Blood Wake,
> Halo, Munch's, Amped, Cel Damage, Gotham ... all are part of existing
genres
> (tho I still can't quite classify Munch's),
Munch is an adventure game. Just like Out of This World etc. Gotham=MSR.
How new is that? I'm all for innovation and new twists on existing genres,
but those two aren't examples of the in with the new.
and all have the potential to be
> fresh takes on said genres. BTW, with the exception of Halo, none of these
> games is remotely PC-ish. And Halo works VERY well on the Xbox anyway.
>
> > Deer Hunter.
>
> What's your point? That some shitty games sell well because people don't
> know any better? If anything, that should tell you not to underestimate
the
> Wal-Mart shopping average American consumer.
The point is the iron clad rule of system sales. LCD consists entirely of
morons incapable of discerning a good game.
> > You're not close minded eh? Ookaaayyyy....
>
> Because I didn't care for Dark Cloud? Forgive me for having personal
> preferences.
Interesting backstep. You blew off the entire console RPG genre at first
there.
> >> What you call focus I call tedium, and I'm sorry if that upsets you so.
> >
> > Such razor wit!
>
> Uh, Joe, that's not wit. It's just a statement.
No, parroting me like that. Never would've occured to me. So snide. Utter
barbarity!
> > I covered all on the list.
>
> And you classified Pseudo Interactive, makers of Cel Damage, as PC. Make
up
> your mind.
They are PC. Doesn't mean they can't adapt and make console games.
> >> And I say: so what? What do you expect on a brand new console designed
> >> around a PC-style architecture?
> >
> > That. (Which is what worries me.)
>
> ROTFL. Why do I find it hard to believe that this would worry you? You're
> steadfastly anti-Xbox. Why do you care at all? If you're so convinced the
> Xbox will be a spectacular failure, you ought to be dancing in the
streets.
It's not that I hate the system. I just know it's going to fail. There is a
difference there. A forum can't all be sweetness and light. Not when the
system it's built around builds up a software base that doesn't really carry
over well.
> >> Even with all this so-called PC developer
> >> support, the Xbox launch line-up is far stronger than the PS2 launch
> >> line-up was.
> >
> > Pity MS isn't launching last year then.
>
> So what you're saying is a new console has no chance of competing with an
> earlier console that already has a solid line-up of games?
Momentum does not shift easily.
Yeah, the
> Dreamcast sure fended off the PS2, didn't it?
PS2 had the mindshare. People were buying it without even knowing why.
Newer =
> better in the minds of many Wal-Mart shopping consumers, and lord knows
> Xbox's marketing will key on that.
Guess how many times the Wal-Mart customers have made the most powerful
system the #1 system in terms of sales? SMS, TG-16, SNES, N64. Impressive
list of successful consoles eh? Of all of them, the SNES is the only one
that took the #1 spot. That was only due to the Genesis withdrawing from the
market however. N64 held on, the SMS failed, the TG-16 vanished, and that
doesn't even get into the Neo Geo, the 3DO, the Jaguar etc.
> >> Even you can't deny that. And if it sells well, every console developer
> >> in the world will be scrambling to hop on board.
> >
> > That's a whopping if.
>
> Well duh. The Xbox is a huge unknown right now. Nobody disputes that.
Some don't. (Shrug)
> > Which is why they pass up PCish games are unable to articulate why.
>
> I think you're unable to articulate why you're so biased against so-called
> "PC-ish" games which can still translate successfully to a console. For
that
> matter, you're unable to articulate what makes a game "PC-ish" in the
first
> place.
Now now. Just because you can't even begin to hint at what defines survival
horror, don't presume it also applies to me. ;)
PC RPG: Minimal story. Throws the player into the a world, leaves them to
survive. Characters can die. Generally nonlinear.
Console RPG: Story driven. Paces the game so character death is unlikely.
Characters get knocked out, the player doesn't lose party members if their
HP run to 0. Linear to a fault.
PC action titles tend revolve around an equally vague defined goal. Games
like Crusader, Carmageddon etc tend to have ill defined goals and an over
emphasis on every little thing the programmers thought might have been cool.
Compare that to something like Twisted Metal where the goal is simply kill
your enemies. There's minimal extra baggage, and everything's designed to be
as spontaneous feeling as possible. Right down to the special moves and
physics model. (989 adopted a mroe PCish approach and nearly killed the
series with 3 and 4 BTW)
> > Get a better newsreader.
>
> I read messages threaded and sorted by date because I prefer it that way.
It
> has nothing to do with the newsreader.
I do as well. Somehow I don't have trouble finding new messages in older
threads though.
Harry Al-Shakarchi
"Joe Ottoson" <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote:
> Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
> news:B7E39FA4.17E45%zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net...
> > Joe Ottoson wrote:
> >
> > > Uh huh... That's why you rallied around survival horror "Just because
> that's
> > > what it's called". Best look up the term "circular argument".
> >
> > Oh yeah, I forgot that you were refusing to acknowledge survival horror a
> > genre, even though everyone else in the industry does. LOL. You a veddy
> > silly boy, Joseph.
>
> Still waiting on a definition BTW. "Cause it is" isn't a reason.
Would "Survival horror is a subset of Action-Adventure" shut you up?
Joe Ottoson
Harry Al-Shakarchi <tom...@bungee.org> wrote in message
news:tomeone-6F0CFA...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
Nope. It's grossly inaccurate, and you failed to provide any links to
sources which I consider credible.
Zackman
>
> Still waiting on a definition BTW. "Cause it is" isn't a reason.
Ask someone who's an expert/fan of the games. Send an e-mail to
www.survivalhorror.com.
> Munch is an adventure game. Just like Out of This World etc.
Uh, except that OOTW, awesome game that it was, was two-dimensional.
Basically a side-scroller with a storyline. Munch's is more a combination of
OOTW and a 3D console platformer.
> Gotham=MSR. How new is that?
Then you might as well say GT3 = GT2. Gotham has a completely different
physics model, different scoring system, different tracks (some are carried
over from MSR, yes, but completely graphically updated), different
soundtrack (thank GOD), different cars, damage modelling, etc etc etc...
> The point is the iron clad rule of system sales. LCD consists entirely of
> morons incapable of discerning a good game.
And yet they are a MASSIVE buying force. Which is why, given the right
marketing (something the other failed consoles didn't have), Xbox could
succeed without really trying.
> Interesting backstep. You blew off the entire console RPG genre at first
> there.
I liked FFVII and the Zelda games. I do NOT like ultra-linear RPGs that
focus on tedious object collecting.
> > And you classified Pseudo Interactive, makers of Cel Damage, as PC. Make
> > your mind.
>
> They are PC. Doesn't mean they can't adapt and make console games.
Have you seen or played Cel Damage? It's console through and through. Really
fun game too.
> It's not that I hate the system. I just know it's going to fail.
If you "know" it's going to fail then you don't know what Microsoft has
riding on it. They know they won't see a profit from the Xbox for 3 to 5
years, and ultimately its purpose is to be their stepping stone into the
console world. They don't want a share of the market now, they want a share
of the market five years from now when it's worth three times as much. It
would literally have to be the most spectacular failure in the history of
consumer electronics for MS to give up on it. And $500 million says they
have no plans of failing to follow through.
Will it ultimately be the biggest console success ever? Unlikely, as long as
Sony is around. But they've thrown WAY too many resources into the project
to pull the plug in 18 months if it's not selling.
> PS2 had the mindshare. People were buying it without even knowing why.
You're telling me!
> Guess how many times the Wal-Mart customers have made the most powerful
> system the #1 system in terms of sales?
Who's talking about power??? It has nothing to do with power. It has to do
with games and with perception. Perception of power, yes, but perception of
coolness, of having good games, of being something that's going to be around
for a while. MS can cover those bases, if it's smart.
> Now now. Just because you can't even begin to hint at what defines
survival
> horror, don't presume it also applies to me. ;)
Horror games that fall within the action-adventure phylum but do not fit
into any other specific subgenre, like first-person shooter. I now await
your exceptions to that rule. :)
> PC RPG: Minimal story. Throws the player into the a world, leaves them to
> survive. Characters can die. Generally nonlinear.
The Ultima games have minimal story??
> Console RPG: Story driven. Paces the game so character death is unlikely.
> Characters get knocked out, the player doesn't lose party members if their
> HP run to 0. Linear to a fault.
To a fault is right.
> PC action titles tend revolve around an equally vague defined goal. Games
> like Crusader, Carmageddon etc tend to have ill defined goals and an over
> emphasis on every little thing the programmers thought might have been
cool.
Carmageddon has virtually no story or goals. TMB is far more story-driven
that Carmageddon. And how does Metal Gear Solid, possibly the most
successful console action-adventure title of all time, factor in? Defined
storyline, lots of cool little touches, specific goals... far more so than,
say, Crusader.
> Compare that to something like Twisted Metal where the goal is simply kill
> your enemies. There's minimal extra baggage, and everything's designed to
be
> as spontaneous feeling as possible. Right down to the special moves and
> physics model. (989 adopted a mroe PCish approach and nearly killed the
> series with 3 and 4 BTW)
But this isn't really relevant in the first place. You're mistakenly saying
most Xbox games are going to be made by PC developers, and those PC
developers simply won't understand what separates a PC game from a console
game. Again, look at the launch line-up. All very console-centric titles.
> I do as well. Somehow I don't have trouble finding new messages in older
> threads though.
I've marked this thread so I can track it easily. JUST FOR YOU JOE! I HOPE
YOU APPRECIATE IT! :)
Joe Ottoson
Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
> "Joe Ottoson" <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote in ...
> >
> > Still waiting on a definition BTW. "Cause it is" isn't a reason.
>
> Ask someone who's an expert/fan of the games. Send an e-mail to
> www.survivalhorror.com.
Nope. He's biased.
> > Munch is an adventure game. Just like Out of This World etc.
>
> Uh, except that OOTW, awesome game that it was, was two-dimensional.
> Basically a side-scroller with a storyline. Munch's is more a combination
of
> OOTW and a 3D console platformer.
Wow. Fade to Black.
> > Gotham=MSR. How new is that?
>
> Then you might as well say GT3 = GT2.
Kinda why I own neither.
> > The point is the iron clad rule of system sales. LCD consists entirely
of
> > morons incapable of discerning a good game.
>
> And yet they are a MASSIVE buying force.
Which is why the PS2's unstoppable.
> > Interesting backstep. You blew off the entire console RPG genre at first
> > there.
>
> I liked FFVII and the Zelda games. I do NOT like ultra-linear RPGs that
> focus on tedious object collecting.
That is FF7. That is Zelda.
> > > And you classified Pseudo Interactive, makers of Cel Damage, as PC.
Make
> > > your mind.
> >
> > They are PC. Doesn't mean they can't adapt and make console games.
>
> Have you seen or played Cel Damage? It's console through and through.
Really
> fun game too.
How can I be sure you even know the distinction?
> > It's not that I hate the system. I just know it's going to fail.
>
> If you "know" it's going to fail then you don't know what Microsoft has
> riding on it.
I know exactly what they have riding on it. I simply don't beleive that
they'll just keep pumping money into something just to make it float. At
some point, that just runs you out of business, and MS has shown more savvy
than that in the past.
They know they won't see a profit from the Xbox for 3 to 5
> years, and ultimately its purpose is to be their stepping stone into the
> console world. They don't want a share of the market now, they want a
share
> of the market five years from now when it's worth three times as much.
If they choke with the Xbox, and don't manage to make it profitable within 3
years, their name recognition will just Sega/Atari them right out of the
market with grim efficiency.
It
> would literally have to be the most spectacular failure in the history of
> consumer electronics for MS to give up on it. And $500 million says they
> have no plans of failing to follow through.
Yes. I've heard this cliche more times that you'd beleive.
> Will it ultimately be the biggest console success ever? Unlikely, as long
as
> Sony is around. But they've thrown WAY too many resources into the project
> to pull the plug in 18 months if it's not selling.
At a certain point, a console that's not selling just turns into a sucking
money pit. Happened with the jaguar, the Saturn, the 3D0, the TG-16 etc.
Throwing more cash at the problem is not an effective band aid. The
consumers have already moved on by then.
> > PS2 had the mindshare. People were buying it without even knowing why.
>
> You're telling me!
I'm certainly not arguing it. ;)
> > Guess how many times the Wal-Mart customers have made the most powerful
> > system the #1 system in terms of sales?
>
> Who's talking about power??? It has nothing to do with power.
That's what "the newest" translates to in the Electronics world.
It has to do
> with games and with perception. Perception of power, yes, but perception
of
> coolness, of having good games, of being something that's going to be
around
> for a while. MS can cover those bases, if it's smart.
Not with a system the size of a humvee. Giant has the wrong connotation to
power in an electronics buyer's mind.
> > Now now. Just because you can't even begin to hint at what defines
> survival
> > horror, don't presume it also applies to me. ;)
>
> Horror games that fall within the action-adventure phylum but do not fit
> into any other specific subgenre, like first-person shooter. I now await
> your exceptions to that rule. :)
I'm still waiting for what seperates them from action-adventure. Is it
zombies? Guns? What?
> > PC RPG: Minimal story. Throws the player into the a world, leaves them
to
> > survive. Characters can die. Generally nonlinear.
>
> The Ultima games have minimal story??
If you just sit down to play one after playing FF7, is the story immediately
apparent? I liked Baldur's Gate's stoy a lot, but if you just came to it
cold, say, found it demoing in the story with the party standing around in a
field, you could bunder about for hours without picking up on story
element.
That's impossible in a console RPG. You can move forward, back's either
closed or frozen in time. There are virtually no detours to be made etc.
> > Console RPG: Story driven. Paces the game so character death is
unlikely.
> > Characters get knocked out, the player doesn't lose party members if
their
> > HP run to 0. Linear to a fault.
>
> To a fault is right.
Not gonna argue. That's always annoyed me, but the tradeoff isn't much
better generally speaking.
> > PC action titles tend revolve around an equally vague defined goal.
Games
> > like Crusader, Carmageddon etc tend to have ill defined goals and an
over
> > emphasis on every little thing the programmers thought might have been
> cool.
>
> Carmageddon has virtually no story or goals. TMB is far more story-driven
> that Carmageddon.
Which is what I was saying.
And how does Metal Gear Solid, possibly the most
> successful console action-adventure title of all time, factor in? Defined
> storyline, lots of cool little touches, specific goals... far more so
than,
> say, Crusader.
Seems to fit the equation I put forth above.
> > Compare that to something like Twisted Metal where the goal is simply
kill
> > your enemies. There's minimal extra baggage, and everything's designed
to
> be
> > as spontaneous feeling as possible. Right down to the special moves and
> > physics model. (989 adopted a mroe PCish approach and nearly killed the
> > series with 3 and 4 BTW)
>
> But this isn't really relevant in the first place. You're mistakenly
saying
> most Xbox games are going to be made by PC developers, and those PC
> developers simply won't understand what separates a PC game from a console
> game. Again, look at the launch line-up. All very console-centric titles.
I don't really see it that way. Halo is a PC centric game. Oddworld is more
a PC centric game than it is a mainstream console title. Look at GT3's
physics. MSR2's better be dead simple and totally unrealistic, or it'll turn
people off. (Geeze, just look at Ridge Racer. You "drive" a hovering
tupperware tub for all the mass it exhibits.)
Shenmue compared to Sentient pretty much sums up the gulf IMO. It can be
bridged, but it takes a huge amount of effort on the PC developer's part.
Otherwise, they jsut oversimplify things and the result is garbage like
Expendable or Incoming.
> > I do as well. Somehow I don't have trouble finding new messages in older
> > threads though.
>
> I've marked this thread so I can track it easily. JUST FOR YOU JOE! I HOPE
> YOU APPRECIATE IT! :)
My gyro.
Zackman
> Nope. He's biased.
He's biased against your weird insistence that survial horror isn't a genre?
LOL.
> Wow. Fade to Black.
Fade to Black suuuucked. Made Flashback look like a work of art.
> > Then you might as well say GT3 = GT2.
>
> Kinda why I own neither.
Really? Wow. Not a racing fan I'm guessing.
> > And yet they are a MASSIVE buying force.
>
> Which is why the PS2's unstoppable.
Nobody has said otherwise. But there's room for a second console in the
market.
> That is FF7. That is Zelda.
Ah, but FF7 and Zelda were more than the sum of their typical Japanese
console RPG parts. They mark the dividing like between the typical tedious
console RPG and the type of game that draws you in and makes you actually
want to see through to the end. Which is why they'll always be remembered as
classics and Dark Cloud will be forgotten.
> How can I be sure you even know the distinction?
Cel Damage is pure fast-paced car combat. You wouldn't want to play it with
anything but a console type controller.
>At
> some point, that just runs you out of business, and MS has shown more
savvy
> than that in the past.
Interesting that you give them credit for that amount of savvy but not
enough credit to have thought the whole thing through in the first place.
And unlike Sega, Atari, 3DO or any of the failed console makers, Microsoft
has an absolutely IMMENSE cushion of money. Money buys them time, time to
earn a mindshare, release some must-have titles and slowly whittle away at
the PS2's market.
> If they choke with the Xbox, and don't manage to make it profitable within
3
> years, their name recognition will just Sega/Atari them right out of the
> market with grim efficiency.
Well let's just wait those three years and see what happens, yes?
> > Who's talking about power??? It has nothing to do with power.
>
> That's what "the newest" translates to in the Electronics world.
That doesn't have anything to do with what you were arguing before. You were
trying to draw some kind of correlation between powerful consoles and
failure. It has nothing to do with power. The PS2 has been the most powerful
console for the last year, and it doesn't seem to have failed. My point was
people are drawn to the latest and greatest, especially when it comes to
consumer electronics. If there's any one thing that has consitently killed
consoles it's timing. Microsoft might have liked to have launched at the
same time as the PS2, but the next best thing is launching just over a year
later. Long enough that the novelty of the PS2 has died down a bit and
people are at least willing to give another console a look.
> Not with a system the size of a humvee. Giant has the wrong connotation to
> power in an electronics buyer's mind.
Oh God, you sound like that guy who posted that he doesn't like the name
'Xbox'. Don't be a maroon Joe. If the PS2 was 50% bigger than it is now,
would you have not bought one? Unless you live in a cardboard refrigerator
box, the fact your game console is the size of a VCR doesn't mean anything.
The most sophisticated piece of electronics in my entertainment center is my
TEAC AV receiver, and it's a freakin' behemoth.
> I'm still waiting for what seperates them from action-adventure. Is it
> zombies? Guns? What?
Like I said: HORROR.
> That's impossible in a console RPG. You can move forward, back's either
> closed or frozen in time. There are virtually no detours to be made etc.
Yes, fine, we've established console RPGs are simple-minded and linear.
Let's move on.
> > And how does Metal Gear Solid, possibly the most
> > successful console action-adventure title of all time, factor in?
Defined
> > storyline, lots of cool little touches, specific goals... far more so
> > than, say, Crusader.
> Seems to fit the equation I put forth above.
Metal Gear Solid is a far more ambitious and complex game than Crusader. So
what makes it a console game? Other than the control scheme.
> I don't really see it that way. Halo is a PC centric game.
Because it's a first-person shooter? What about Goldeneye and Perfect Dark?
What made them console games instead of PC games?
> Oddworld is more
> a PC centric game than it is a mainstream console title.
And this is exactly the kind of game that could give the rigid definition of
a console title a much needed push. Munch's is straightforward enough to be
easily gotten into, but the characters, story and environments seem to have
a lot more depth. Best of both worlds.
> Look at GT3's
> physics. MSR2's better be dead simple and totally unrealistic, or it'll
turn
> people off.
GT2.5's physics are fairly realistic for a console racer, and it doesn't
appear to have turned anyone off. Hell, look at all the tweaking and
customizing you can do to the cars. It's practically... GASP!!!! ... a
*SIM!!!* Either way, MSR's physics weren't particularly realistic, so
there's no reason to think Gotham's will be.
>(Geeze, just look at Ridge Racer. You "drive" a hovering
> tupperware tub for all the mass it exhibits.)
Which is why Ridge Racer sucks.
> Shenmue compared to Sentient pretty much sums up the gulf IMO.
Crusader? Carmageddon? Sentient? Have you played any PC games since 1997?
;)
Joe Ottoson
Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
> "Joe Ottoson" <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote...
>
> > Nope. He's biased.
>
> He's biased against your weird insistence that survial horror isn't a
genre?
> LOL.
Sorry. Got caught up in the fad here. ;)
> > Wow. Fade to Black.
>
> Fade to Black suuuucked. Made Flashback look like a work of art.
Flashback beat OOTW's brain in with a rock anyway.
> > > Then you might as well say GT3 = GT2.
> >
> > Kinda why I own neither.
>
> Really? Wow. Not a racing fan I'm guessing.
I prefer games like F-Zero for that.
> > > And yet they are a MASSIVE buying force.
> >
> > Which is why the PS2's unstoppable.
>
> Nobody has said otherwise. But there's room for a second console in the
> market.
Yeah. Game Cube has that though.
> > That is FF7. That is Zelda.
>
> Ah, but FF7 and Zelda were more than the sum of their typical Japanese
> console RPG parts. They mark the dividing like between the typical tedious
> console RPG and the type of game that draws you in and makes you actually
> want to see through to the end. Which is why they'll always be remembered
as
> classics and Dark Cloud will be forgotten.
They're virtual novels. All the same, I want to play Xenosaga.
> > How can I be sure you even know the distinction?
>
> Cel Damage is pure fast-paced car combat. You wouldn't want to play it
with
> anything but a console type controller.
Okay.
> >At
> > some point, that just runs you out of business, and MS has shown more
> savvy
> > than that in the past.
>
> Interesting that you give them credit for that amount of savvy but not
> enough credit to have thought the whole thing through in the first place.
I'm perfectly willing to do that. (Provided there's evidence that they did.)
Careful planing doesn't amount to much if their basic angle isn't that good.
You can have business savvy without really knowing every element of a market
well. Look at Bob.
> And unlike Sega, Atari, 3DO or any of the failed console makers, Microsoft
> has an absolutely IMMENSE cushion of money.
Yes. But let's say that the Xbox does not sell well int he first two years.
The games end up selling about 50k tops etc. MS is losing money with every
game released, and every piece of hardware sold. Third parties look
elsewhere because they know teir games will not sell.
What does MS do? Throw half a billion dollars at developers to make more
games nobody is buying? They cut their losses if they're smart.
Money buys them time, time to
> earn a mindshare, release some must-have titles and slowly whittle away at
> the PS2's market.
That won't work. They have to blitz the market if they're going to get a
foothold.
> > If they choke with the Xbox, and don't manage to make it profitable
within
> 3
> > years, their name recognition will just Sega/Atari them right out of the
> > market with grim efficiency.
>
> Well let's just wait those three years and see what happens, yes?
Note the "if". Hypothetical.
> > > Who's talking about power??? It has nothing to do with power.
> >
> > That's what "the newest" translates to in the Electronics world.
>
> That doesn't have anything to do with what you were arguing before. You
were
> trying to draw some kind of correlation between powerful consoles and
> failure.
Actually I was drawing a correleation with powerful consoles and the market
not caring. People say "People will but the Xbox. It's the most powerful."
this is a false conclusion to leap to as it is not true.
The PS2 has been the most powerful
> console for the last year, and it doesn't seem to have failed.
The DC was the most powerful from 1998 to the PS2's release.
My point was
> people are drawn to the latest and greatest, especially when it comes to
> consumer electronics.
Yes, but it doesn't follow what's happened in the console market. The N64
would've doen far better if that was the case. As would the 3D0 and Jaguar.
They were all newer and more powerful after all. The very definition of
latest and greatest.
If there's any one thing that has consitently killed
> consoles it's timing. Microsoft might have liked to have launched at the
> same time as the PS2, but the next best thing is launching just over a
year
> later. Long enough that the novelty of the PS2 has died down a bit and
> people are at least willing to give another console a look.
The only problem there is they're launching head to head against Nintendo.
Ever hear the term "party split"?
> > Not with a system the size of a humvee. Giant has the wrong connotation
to
> > power in an electronics buyer's mind.
>
> Oh God, you sound like that guy who posted that he doesn't like the name
> 'Xbox'. Don't be a maroon Joe.
Sadly, it is actually true.
If the PS2 was 50% bigger than it is now,
> would you have not bought one?
Perhaps. OTOH, I'd think twice about moving it around, and I'd have a
considerable amount of trouble placing it in my current apartment if it was
larger.
Unless you live in a cardboard refrigerator
> box,
Close enough. ;)
> the fact your game console is the size of a VCR doesn't mean anything.
I bought the smallest VCR I could find too.
> > I'm still waiting for what seperates them from action-adventure. Is it
> > zombies? Guns? What?
>
> Like I said: HORROR.
So you can't have an adventure game with horror in it? What of Sanitaruim?
> > That's impossible in a console RPG. You can move forward, back's either
> > closed or frozen in time. There are virtually no detours to be made etc.
>
> Yes, fine, we've established console RPGs are simple-minded and linear.
> Let's move on.
I guess I didn't get your point. I said that, you essentially repeated it
and seemed to think you were saying something contradictory to what I said.
What'd I miss?
> > > And how does Metal Gear Solid, possibly the most
> > > successful console action-adventure title of all time, factor in?
> Defined
> > > storyline, lots of cool little touches, specific goals... far more so
> > > than, say, Crusader.
>
> > Seems to fit the equation I put forth above.
>
> Metal Gear Solid is a far more ambitious and complex game than Crusader.
So
> what makes it a console game? Other than the control scheme.
I don't see it as inherently more complex. Crusader had an awful lot of
motions etc that you had to use about 90 different buttons to activate. It
also had destructable terrain, decoy robots etc etc etc. All make it more
complex than MGS on a lot of levels. Ideal in the console is to be as
streamlined as possible rather than a chaotic mess like Crusader was.
> > I don't really see it that way. Halo is a PC centric game.
>
> Because it's a first-person shooter?
Yep.
What about Goldeneye and Perfect Dark?
> What made them console games instead of PC games?
They're still PC centric. They just happened to be popular. Sometimes it
carries over, sometimes, it goes over like a RTS or an adventure game.
> > Oddworld is more
> > a PC centric game than it is a mainstream console title.
>
> And this is exactly the kind of game that could give the rigid definition
of
> a console title a much needed push.
Only PC gamers think that the console needs to offer a drier climate.
Munch's is straightforward enough to be
> easily gotten into, but the characters, story and environments seem to
have
> a lot more depth. Best of both worlds.
And it plays like a glorified Dragon's Lar.
> > Look at GT3's
> > physics. MSR2's better be dead simple and totally unrealistic, or it'll
> turn
> > people off.
>
> GT2.5's physics are fairly realistic for a console racer,
Not really. There are console racers that punish you for hitting the walls,
other cars etc. GT you can pinball wherever you like.
and it doesn't
> appear to have turned anyone off. Hell, look at all the tweaking and
> customizing you can do to the cars. It's practically... GASP!!!! ... a
> *SIM!!!* Either way, MSR's physics weren't particularly realistic, so
> there's no reason to think Gotham's will be.
Try to put a Papyrus sim on a console. Aside from a hardcore subset, I
promise you the game would suffer in sales.
> >(Geeze, just look at Ridge Racer. You "drive" a hovering
> > tupperware tub for all the mass it exhibits.)
>
> Which is why Ridge Racer sucks.
Well, yeah.
> > Shenmue compared to Sentient pretty much sums up the gulf IMO.
>
> Crusader? Carmageddon? Sentient? Have you played any PC games since 1997?
> ;)
Rainbow Six count? ;)
Harry Al-Shakarchi
"Joe Ottoson" <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote:
> Harry Al-Shakarchi <tom...@bungee.org> wrote in message
> news:tomeone-6F0CFA...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
> > In article <9plvbr$j7k1c$1...@ID-80475.news.dfncis.de>,
> > "Joe Ottoson" <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
> > > news:B7E39FA4.17E45%zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net...
> > > > Joe Ottoson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Uh huh... That's why you rallied around survival horror "Just
> because
> > > that's
> > > > > what it's called". Best look up the term "circular argument".
> > > >
> > > > Oh yeah, I forgot that you were refusing to acknowledge survival
> horror a
> > > > genre, even though everyone else in the industry does. LOL. You a
> veddy
> > > > silly boy, Joseph.
> > >
> > > Still waiting on a definition BTW. "Cause it is" isn't a reason.
> >
> > Would "Survival horror is a subset of Action-Adventure" shut you up?
>
> Nope. It's grossly inaccurate, and you failed to provide any links to
> sources which I consider credible.
>
>
Listen Joe: Fuck You. I don't give a damn if you don't think survival horror
is a genre. Try and tell that to people in the gaming industry and they'll
just laugh at you. I won't bother with trying to prove anything to your
feeble close-minded self.
Zackman
>
> Flashback beat OOTW's brain in with a rock anyway.
You're on copious amounts of crack if you think Flashback was a better game
than OOTW. :P
> > Nobody has said otherwise. But there's room for a second console in the
> > market.
>
> Yeah. Game Cube has that though.
I wouldn't bet on that. The Japanese launch has been weak, several of the
launch or near-launch titles are being pushed back... Tendoids and kiddies
will buy one regardless (as will I), but will it really have that much to
offer this holiday season? Early momentum is key, and it'll be very
interesting to compare Xbox and Gamecube sales out of the gate.
> I'm perfectly willing to do that. (Provided there's evidence that they
did.)
> Careful planing doesn't amount to much if their basic angle isn't that
good.
> You can have business savvy without really knowing every element of a
market
> well. Look at Bob.
Yes, look at Bob... lots of people mention Bob, because it's one of the only
examples of Microsoft not thinking something through or executing it
properly. Most other companies of Microsoft's size and scope have many, many
more failures.
> Yes. But let's say that the Xbox does not sell well int he first two
years.
> The games end up selling about 50k tops etc. MS is losing money with every
> game released, and every piece of hardware sold. Third parties look
> elsewhere because they know teir games will not sell.
This is true, but if it doesn't sell well in the first two years, it's
pretty much done. Even I wouldn't expect them to keep surrpoting it.
> That won't work. They have to blitz the market if they're going to get a
> foothold.
I think they will. What's odd though is I see WAY more TV advertising and
promotional tie-ins for the PS2 right now than for the Xbox. MS better get
off their asses. And Nintendo? A few ads in men's magazines ain't gonna cut
it. They'd better start ramping up too.
> Actually I was drawing a correleation with powerful consoles and the
market
> not caring. People say "People will but the Xbox. It's the most powerful."
> this is a false conclusion to leap to as it is not true.
Yes. That's why I don't make that conclusion.
>> The PS2 has been the most powerful
> > console for the last year, and it doesn't seem to have failed.
>
> The DC was the most powerful from 1998 to the PS2's release.
And part of the reason the DC failed is people decided to hold off for
Sony's *newest* machine before making their next-gen console purchase. Among
other reasons.
> Yes, but it doesn't follow what's happened in the console market. The N64
> would've doen far better if that was the case. As would the 3D0 and
Jaguar.
> They were all newer and more powerful after all. The very definition of
> latest and greatest.
The N64 beat the PSX's sales in its first year of release. It failed to stay
competitive because the third party support wasn't there. 3DO priced
themselves out of the running from the start... $700 for a games machine?
Right. And public opinion was against Atari from the word go, partly because
of the Atari name and partly because the machine was ridiculously hard to
develop for. (While the MS name might work against the Xbox, nobody can
accuse it of being hard to develop for.) Consumers may want the latest and
greatest, but that doesn't mean they're stupid. If someone invented a 3D
HoloTV that cost $20,000 and only got one channel, nobody would buy that
either.
> The only problem there is they're launching head to head against Nintendo.
> Ever hear the term "party split"?
Better than launching head to head against Sony. Hardcore gamers like us
aside, the Xbox and Gamecube will appeal to different markets. There will be
some crossover, yes, but not enough to strangle both. Even 30% of the
market, especially if they can hold onto it for three or four years, would
probably be enough to break even.
> Perhaps. OTOH, I'd think twice about moving it around, and I'd have a
> considerable amount of trouble placing it in my current apartment if it
was
> larger.
Why do you move your PS2 around? And are you actually saying that because
the Xbox is just over an inch wider, less than four inches deeper and
virtually the same height as the PS2, that's REALLY going to make a
difference?
> Unless you live in a cardboard refrigerator
> > box,
>
> Close enough. ;)
Yikes!
> I bought the smallest VCR I could find too.
How big is your TV then?
> So you can't have an adventure game with horror in it? What of Sanitaruim?
No, I said perhaps the definition of survival horror is an action-adventure
game with a horror theme. Works for me.
> I guess I didn't get your point. I said that, you essentially repeated it
> and seemed to think you were saying something contradictory to what I
said.
> What'd I miss?
Beats me, I'm totally losing track of this conversation. Are we done yet?
:)
>
> I don't see it as inherently more complex. Crusader had an awful lot of
> motions etc that you had to use about 90 different buttons to activate. It
> also had destructable terrain, decoy robots etc etc etc. All make it more
> complex than MGS on a lot of levels. Ideal in the console is to be as
> streamlined as possible rather than a chaotic mess like Crusader was.
Crusader might not be the best example of a PC action game though.
> What about Goldeneye and Perfect Dark?
> > What made them console games instead of PC games?
>
> They're still PC centric. They just happened to be popular. Sometimes it
> carries over, sometimes, it goes over like a RTS or an adventure game.
OK.
> Only PC gamers think that the console needs to offer a drier climate.
OK.
> And it plays like a glorified Dragon's Lar.
Pffft. What does that make Jak and Daxter? A glorified Space Ace?
> > GT2.5's physics are fairly realistic for a console racer,
>
> Not really. There are console racers that punish you for hitting the
walls,
> other cars etc. GT you can pinball wherever you like.
And God forbid Polyphony would have had damage modelling on the cars...
> Try to put a Papyrus sim on a console. Aside from a hardcore subset, I
> promise you the game would suffer in sales.
Gah, do any PC gamers even like Papyrus sims? They appeal only to a hardcore
subset of racing fans.
> Rainbow Six count? ;)
Barely! :D
Joe Ottoson
Just want a definition.
Joe Ottoson
Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
> "Joe Ottoson" <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote ...
> >
> > Flashback beat OOTW's brain in with a rock anyway.
>
> You're on copious amounts of crack if you think Flashback was a better
game
> than OOTW. :P
Flackback was at least playable. A collection of do or die setpiece puzzles
is never gameplay.
> > > Nobody has said otherwise. But there's room for a second console in
the
> > > market.
> >
> > Yeah. Game Cube has that though.
>
> I wouldn't bet on that. The Japanese launch has been weak, several of the
> launch or near-launch titles are being pushed back...
The Japanese launch is meaningless.
> > I'm perfectly willing to do that. (Provided there's evidence that they
> did.)
> > Careful planing doesn't amount to much if their basic angle isn't that
> good.
> > You can have business savvy without really knowing every element of a
> market
> > well. Look at Bob.
>
> Yes, look at Bob... lots of people mention Bob, because it's one of the
only
> examples of Microsoft not thinking something through or executing it
> properly. Most other companies of Microsoft's size and scope have many,
many
> more failures.
MS has those too. Their first ISP, the Ultimate TV, Web TV...
> > Yes. But let's say that the Xbox does not sell well int he first two
> years.
> > The games end up selling about 50k tops etc. MS is losing money with
every
> > game released, and every piece of hardware sold. Third parties look
> > elsewhere because they know teir games will not sell.
>
> This is true, but if it doesn't sell well in the first two years, it's
> pretty much done. Even I wouldn't expect them to keep surrpoting it.
Ah. That was pretty much my only point there.
> > That won't work. They have to blitz the market if they're going to get a
> > foothold.
>
> I think they will. What's odd though is I see WAY more TV advertising and
> promotional tie-ins for the PS2 right now than for the Xbox. MS better get
> off their asses. And Nintendo? A few ads in men's magazines ain't gonna
cut
> it. They'd better start ramping up too.
I've seen footage of Luigi's mansion on a few channels actually.
> > Actually I was drawing a correleation with powerful consoles and the
> market
> > not caring. People say "People will but the Xbox. It's the most
powerful."
> > this is a false conclusion to leap to as it is not true.
>
> Yes. That's why I don't make that conclusion.
Yeah, I know. Still, I like to cover all your base. That way they are belong
to me.
> >> The PS2 has been the most powerful
> > > console for the last year, and it doesn't seem to have failed.
> >
> > The DC was the most powerful from 1998 to the PS2's release.
>
> And part of the reason the DC failed is people decided to hold off for
> Sony's *newest* machine before making their next-gen console purchase.
Among
> other reasons.
Mainly developer confidence. E3 2000 showed that.
>Consumers may want the latest and
> greatest, but that doesn't mean they're stupid. If someone invented a 3D
> HoloTV that cost $20,000 and only got one channel, nobody would buy that
> either.
Much like HDTV's broad acceptance.
> > The only problem there is they're launching head to head against
Nintendo.
> > Ever hear the term "party split"?
>
> Better than launching head to head against Sony.
They would've had a better chance there IMO. More power, going after the
exact same demographic. PS2 shortages could've really gotten people after
the Xbox. Now they're relegated to trying to worm into a market where Sony
already has passed critical mass.
Hardcore gamers like us
> aside, the Xbox and Gamecube will appeal to different markets. There will
be
> some crossover, yes, but not enough to strangle both.
Two systems at once in a casual market will only lead to confusion.
Even 30% of the
> market, especially if they can hold onto it for three or four years, would
> probably be enough to break even.
If a three system market exists.
> > Perhaps. OTOH, I'd think twice about moving it around, and I'd have a
> > considerable amount of trouble placing it in my current apartment if it
> was
> > larger.
>
> Why do you move your PS2 around?
Depends on what I'm doing with it.
And are you actually saying that because
> the Xbox is just over an inch wider, less than four inches deeper and
> virtually the same height as the PS2, that's REALLY going to make a
> difference?
Sure. That sunny side up blob out to scare people off too. ;O
> > I bought the smallest VCR I could find too.
>
> How big is your TV then?
A mighty 13 inches. Have a 27 inch as well, but the digs don't really
support something of that size...
> > So you can't have an adventure game with horror in it? What of
Sanitaruim?
>
> No, I said perhaps the definition of survival horror is an
action-adventure
> game with a horror theme. Works for me.
That doesn't seem like much of a distinction.
> > I guess I didn't get your point. I said that, you essentially repeated
it
> > and seemed to think you were saying something contradictory to what I
> said.
> > What'd I miss?
>
> Beats me, I'm totally losing track of this conversation. Are we done yet?
> :)
Might as well be. ;)
> > I don't see it as inherently more complex. Crusader had an awful lot of
> > motions etc that you had to use about 90 different buttons to activate.
It
> > also had destructable terrain, decoy robots etc etc etc. All make it
more
> > complex than MGS on a lot of levels. Ideal in the console is to be as
> > streamlined as possible rather than a chaotic mess like Crusader was.
>
> Crusader might not be the best example of a PC action game though.
Yeah. It was freakishly popular though.
> > What about Goldeneye and Perfect Dark?
> > > What made them console games instead of PC games?
> >
> > They're still PC centric. They just happened to be popular. Sometimes it
> > carries over, sometimes, it goes over like a RTS or an adventure game.
>
> OK.
I'm picky, but I'm not random. ;)
> > And it plays like a glorified Dragon's Lar.
>
> Pffft. What does that make Jak and Daxter? A glorified Space Ace?
Anythign with setpiece puzzles that kills you if you do the slightest thing
wrong (with only one right solution) adds up to Dragon's Lair in my mind. I
despise that type of uncreative game design.
> > > GT2.5's physics are fairly realistic for a console racer,
> >
> > Not really. There are console racers that punish you for hitting the
> walls,
> > other cars etc. GT you can pinball wherever you like.
>
> And God forbid Polyphony would have had damage modelling on the cars...
If they did, it'd just draw complaints on the control.
> > Try to put a Papyrus sim on a console. Aside from a hardcore subset, I
> > promise you the game would suffer in sales.
>
> Gah, do any PC gamers even like Papyrus sims? They appeal only to a
hardcore
> subset of racing fans.
Heh.
> > Rainbow Six count? ;)
>
> Barely! :D
Why I buy consoles. ;)
Zackman
puzzles
> is never gameplay.
Flashback was an OK side scroller. OOTW, at the time, was like playing a
movie.
> The Japanese launch is meaningless.
If they can't cut it there they're going to be in trouble. Not that a weak
launch necessarily means that, but it doesn't help the perception of the
Gamecube as the next console king. Or queen, in this case.
> MS has those too. Their first ISP, the Ultimate TV, Web TV...
They did well enough by WebTV and Ultimate TV's technology will just be
rolled into the Homestation. MS doesn't always get it right on the first try
but they always learn from their mistakes. Which means Xbox 2 oughta be
great. ;)
> I've seen footage of Luigi's mansion on a few channels actually.
And I've seen two major cable networks carrying high profile PS2 promotions,
to say nothing of Blockbuster's free game rental deal, the everpresent GT3
and Silent Hill 2 commercials... hell, they have RADIO spots on all the
time. Sony's being smart. All the money they didn't need to spend on
advertising before they're using now to beat MS and Nintendo to the punch.
> Yeah, I know. Still, I like to cover all your base. That way they are
belong
> to me.
What you say?
> Much like HDTV's broad acceptance.
You're being sarcastic, right?
> They would've had a better chance there IMO. More power, going after the
> exact same demographic. PS2 shortages could've really gotten people after
> the Xbox. Now they're relegated to trying to worm into a market where Sony
> already has passed critical mass.
So then, why are they doing it? It's no secret Sony is entrenched. Do you
think maybe the MS business plan allows for that? That maybe there are new,
long-term markets MS wants to explore after getting a toehold with the Xbox?
> Sure. That sunny side up blob out to scare people off too. ;O
Can't be any scarier than the PS2's chainsaw noises on some games.
> A mighty 13 inches. Have a 27 inch as well, but the digs don't really
> support something of that size...
Jeez Joe, where do you live? Oh wait... lemme guess, a student dorm! Makes
sense now.
> > No, I said perhaps the definition of survival horror is an
> action-adventure
> > game with a horror theme. Works for me.
>
> That doesn't seem like much of a distinction.
Romantic comedy doesn't seem like much of a distinction either, yet it's an
accepted movie genre.
> > Crusader might not be the best example of a PC action game though.
>
> Yeah. It was freakishly popular though.
Mine always crashed on me so I never got very far into it. :(
> Anythign with setpiece puzzles that kills you if you do the slightest
thing
> wrong (with only one right solution) adds up to Dragon's Lair in my mind.
I
> despise that type of uncreative game design.
Munch's isn't about setpiece puzzles, not in that respect at least. Man, if
that bugs you, DON'T get Ico. It's one of the best video games I've played
in the last... I don't even know how long, but since the entire game is
setpiece puzzles with only one solution, you'd probably hate it. Plus, there
are no special combo moves in the fighting parts. :)
Joe Ottoson
Zackman <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
> "Joe Ottoson" <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote ...
> >
> > Flackback was at least playable. A collection of do or die setpiece
> puzzles
> > is never gameplay.
>
> Flashback was an OK side scroller. OOTW, at the time, was like playing a
> movie.
>
> > The Japanese launch is meaningless.
>
> If they can't cut it there they're going to be in trouble.
They didn't even come close to cutting it in Japan with the N64. 5 years
later, they haver another billion in the bank.
Not that a weak
> launch necessarily means that, but it doesn't help the perception of the
> Gamecube as the next console king. Or queen, in this case.
Don't think they have a sex.
> > MS has those too. Their first ISP, the Ultimate TV, Web TV...
>
> They did well enough by WebTV and Ultimate TV's technology will just be
> rolled into the Homestation. MS doesn't always get it right on the first
try
> but they always learn from their mistakes. Which means Xbox 2 oughta be
> great. ;)
Doesn't help MS escape the Borg image that they've accrued over the years.
;)
> > I've seen footage of Luigi's mansion on a few channels actually.
>
> And I've seen two major cable networks carrying high profile PS2
promotions,
> to say nothing of Blockbuster's free game rental deal, the everpresent GT3
> and Silent Hill 2 commercials... hell, they have RADIO spots on all the
> time. Sony's being smart. All the money they didn't need to spend on
> advertising before they're using now to beat MS and Nintendo to the punch.
Even then, it's probably not 500 million, so it's grossly ineffective. ;)
> > Yeah, I know. Still, I like to cover all your base. That way they are
> belong
> > to me.
>
> What you say?
And people say that gets old...
> > Much like HDTV's broad acceptance.
>
> You're being sarcastic, right?
Just a touch.
> > They would've had a better chance there IMO. More power, going after the
> > exact same demographic. PS2 shortages could've really gotten people
after
> > the Xbox. Now they're relegated to trying to worm into a market where
Sony
> > already has passed critical mass.
>
> So then, why are they doing it?
Because they think they can mainly.
It's no secret Sony is entrenched. Do you
> think maybe the MS business plan allows for that? That maybe there are
new,
> long-term markets MS wants to explore after getting a toehold with the
Xbox?
If they were, they wouldn't be targeting the PS2 so strongly.
> > A mighty 13 inches. Have a 27 inch as well, but the digs don't really
> > support something of that size...
>
> Jeez Joe, where do you live? Oh wait... lemme guess, a student dorm! Makes
> sense now.
Student apartment. The dorms make jail cells look livable.
> > > No, I said perhaps the definition of survival horror is an
> > action-adventure
> > > game with a horror theme. Works for me.
> >
> > That doesn't seem like much of a distinction.
>
> Romantic comedy doesn't seem like much of a distinction either, yet it's
an
> accepted movie genre.
Except that it's never funny.
> > > Crusader might not be the best example of a PC action game though.
> >
> > Yeah. It was freakishly popular though.
>
> Mine always crashed on me so I never got very far into it. :(
I just had to play the Saturn version. (Shudder.) Loved the commander int eh
video sequences. Nothing says future Commander like a guy in a ski jacket...
> > Anythign with setpiece puzzles that kills you if you do the slightest
> thing
> > wrong (with only one right solution) adds up to Dragon's Lair in my
mind.
> I
> > despise that type of uncreative game design.
>
> Munch's isn't about setpiece puzzles, not in that respect at least. Man,
if
> that bugs you, DON'T get Ico.
Trust me, I have no intention of ever buying (or playing) Ico.
It's one of the best video games I've played
> in the last... I don't even know how long, but since the entire game is
> setpiece puzzles with only one solution, you'd probably hate it. Plus,
there
> are no special combo moves in the fighting parts. :)
I hate MGS too. Give me Vagrant Story any day.
Harry Al-Shakarchi
"Joe Ottoson" <jaot...@fortlewis.edu> wrote:
> Just want a definition.
>
Sigh. A game where you are alone against an overpowering force of monsters
(or other monstrosities) where you need to survive and complete some sort of
ultimate goal. The games have a horror element to them.
e.g.
Silent Hill = find your daughter in a town that seems deserted but full of
evil
Dino Crisis = find a scientist on an island full of carnivore dinosaurs
Resident Evil = fight off sudden zombie invasion in a city
Of course, all plots have deeper meaning and exploration that you originally
see at the beginning.
I know you're going to contradict this but I've had enough of this BS.
http://dir.yahoo.com/Recreation/Games/Computer_Games/Titles/Adventure/Surviva
l_Horror/