MGS interveiw from Gamespy
Phil
Talkin' Snakes with KCEJ
A roundtable chat with the three wise men behind the two latest Metal
Gear Solid games.
By Christian "ferricide" Nutt | Jan. 8, 2004
In September, Konami Computer Entertainment Japan invited gaming
journalists from a variety of publications to its brand-new offices in
the Roppongi district of Tokyo for a roundtable discussion of the two
latest Metal Gear Solid games -- Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes for
GameCube, and Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater for the PS2. Our
gracious hosts also let us tour the facility, including the
programming, design, audio, video, and other sections of the office.
We have a full pictorial of the office and all of its contents, and
below we have a full transcript of the question and answer session.
Today we have Mr. Hideo Kojima, vice president of KCEJ and director of
the Metal Gear series. And we have Yoji Shinkawa, who's an art
director, character and mechanical designer for the Metal Gear Solid
series. He's also worked on the Zone of the Enders series. And
Yoshikazu Matsuhana, who's the assistant director of the Metal Gear
Solid series. He's pretty much taking the lead for the Metal Gear
Solid: Twin Snakes project together with Silicon Knights of Canada.
Kojima: Thank you very much for coming today. Our company, Konami
Computer Entertainment Japan, used to consist of two offices. One was
in an area of Tokyo called Ebisu -- that's where we were, and where we
made the Metal Gear series, ZOE series, and Boktai. There was another
office in an area called Shinjuku, and they worked on licensed titles
such as Yu-Gi-Oh!. We've come together on this one floor of the new
office on July 7, 2003. It's such a huge floor it's really hard to go
around by walking, so that's why I got the Segway. This is the first
time that we've actually invited the press into our office since we
came here on July 7. We'll give you a tour after this Q&A session.
We're going to begin with Twin Snakes questions, and then MGS3
questions and others after that.
Question: Maybe we can just start with where in development Twin
Snakes is right now -- what's being worked on and concentrated on at
this point?
Kojima: By the end of September we're basically throwing in all the
specs of the gameplay, and from then on -- from October on -- we'll be
tweaking. Adjusting the difficulty level, making sure everything
works, playing the game through to the end.
Question: I want to know what the process was like to get film
director Ryuhei Kitamura involved. Did you sit him down and show him
all of the cutscenes from the original MGS so that he could decide how
to enhance them?
Kojima: Mr. Kitamura had actually played MGS in the past, but we
pretty much asked him to play it over and over again. And then he came
up with a huge stack of storyboards -- 700 pages showing how he wanted
to change MGS. And then our motion people and our programmers got
together and went through those 700 pages and it was a boiling down
process. There were things that we couldn't do technically, and some
of his suggestions were just not possible. So we boiled that down and
took
that to the motion-capturing sessions.
Question: Can you give an example of what was not possible?
Kojima: We've actually done pretty much all he asked of us. It's
pretty hard to come up with something we didn't do. We needed to
finalize everything before going into the motion capture studio, but
we didn't want to do that because myself and Mr. Kitamura come up with
great ideas on the spot while we do the motion capture. He's a great
live action director, and he just comes up with all of these things
while we're doing it. The thing is, he comes up with these great ideas
which require different backgrounds and stuff, like a set of stairs or
whatever, so we have to assemble all of that on the spot, and that's
really tough to do.
For example, there was a time when we were going to shoot a scene
where enemies were thrown into the air by an explosion, and Mr.
Kitamura said, "I want to do it like the scene from the movie
Commando." We basically brought in this thing called an "air ram"
which is almost never used in motion capture, that sends people off
into the air like a catapult, and used that for the whole day.
Question: What would you say is your favorite of the new scenes
created for Twin Snakes?
Kojima: It's not one scene, but this is something I like about it.
Ocelot, as you know, gets his right hand chopped off. So in the game
he starts spinning his gun with his left hand ... but he drops it. And
then he picks it up, and he drops it again. Every time he appears he
does the spinning thing, and you can tell that he gets better at doing
it with his left hand, and eventually he doesn't drop it anymore.
Question: Did they pick Kitamura-san based on his work with the film
Versus?
Kojima: I went to a preview screening of Versus and I met him there
for the first time. And then I got to see a film by him called Alive
when it came to theaters, and I was like, "Oh, my God, this is so
great. If I don't start working with him now he'll never work with me
... he'll be such a great director." So I went to him.
Question: So you said you liked Mr. Kitamura's work a lot. But I was
wondering if there are any other film directors that have influenced
you, and as a result influenced the way your games get designed.
Kojima: It's really hard to come up with names, because I've been
influenced by all of the film directors ... that would be a few
hundred film directors and a few thousand films I've seen, which have
all influenced me.
Question: Now that you're in the process of doing the scenes, how many
new cuts does Twin Snakes have? How many more cuts were you able to
put in?
Kojima: The cutscenes added up to maybe a little over two hours in the
original MGS, and in the new version it's over three hours, so it's
like an extra hour. The number of cuts, we can't really compare. The
original MGS was limited by the lower power of the original
PlayStation, so it was a given that the characters wouldn't move that
much. A lot of the game cinemas were done with hand-drawn animation,
not motion capture. We basically moved around cameras given the fact
that the characters didn't move much, so it's hard to compare.
Question: Could you do a rough comparison between the amount of motion
capture and hand animation in Twin Snakes?
Matsuhana: 80% of the animation in the gameplay is done by hand,
because while motion captured animation shows natural movements, it
doesn't work in that context. The hand-drawn motion for the gameplay
is all done in-house at KCEJ, new, for this game. All of the cinemas
are motion captured.
Question: What sort of involvement does Shinkawa-san have with Twin
Snakes? Does Silicon Knights have any involvement in the process of
redoing the machines that appear in the game?
Shinkawa: I've pretty much added my touches to things that I couldn't
do in the original MGS, but that I could now do. I got a lot of
requests from the designers and artists -- "please draw this." For
example, with the Metal Gear Rex, in the first game the missiles were
just triangular tubes due to the polygon count. I had to do a new
sketch of Rex with real missiles. Since Rex is a very important robot,
we did that model in-house instead of having the team do it in Canada.
Question: How much of the game is being developed by Silicon Knights
in Canada, and how much here in Japan? From what you've said, it seems
like a lot of the game is being handled by KCEJ directly.
Matsuhana: Probably 60% of the game is done in Canada, 40% here.
Question: Is any area of the development being concentrated on more in
one place or the other?
Kojima: The cinemas are pretty much done here in Japan, and the motion
and sound for them too. The gameplay and its sound are done in Canada.
All of the instructions and orders do come from us, and we tell
Silicon Knights what to do in each area, even for the gameplay.
Question: Do you find that it's a good way to develop a game -- an
international collaboration? How does it compare to the regular way of
developing?
Kojima: I think it will be a trend. I think it's a good thing we're
doing. For example, one of our team members was in Canada for ten
months. We have video conferences almost every day, and Nintendo,
which is in Kyoto, also takes place in that process. Since we work so
closely with these people, we don't feel this geographic distance
between us. It's been working well, and I think it will be a trend.
We'd like to make this our first step to continue this collaborative
process in the future.
Question: What sort of involvement has Nintendo had on the project?
Matsuhana:I guess that Mr. Miyamoto is the overall producer.
Question: When you say that it's the first step, and you'd like to
continue doing this in the future, would you like to work with Silicon
Knights again or simply that you would like to continue collaborating
with other studios in other parts of the world?
Kojima: We don't know who we'd be working with together in the future,
but since this is our first time doing it, it was sort of an
experiment. Because it was an experiment, we wanted to play it safe --
that's why it was Metal Gear Solid, something that already existed,
and doing a rebirth of it. But in the future we'd like to come up with
a totally new project that doesn't exist now. That way you'll see a
lot of us in the project and them -- whoever they are -- in the game.
You'll see a lot of both cultures in the final product.
You can move onto questions about our other games now, if you want.
Question: I have to ask this burning MGS 3 question -- whose idea was
the crocodile hat?
Kojima: It was my idea.
Question: Is there anything you've learned from the development of
Twin Snakes that has been incorporated into the ongoing development of
Snake Eater?
Kojima: Not really, because we're working on both projects at the same
time, so it's hard for the projects to influence each other. MGS3 is
done totally in-house, and we're doing it our way. Now that we've
worked with Mr. Kitamura and we've seen how he's done things during
the motion-capture sessions, we're thinking hard about what we want to
do and have to do with our own motion-capture sessions for MGS3 to
bring it up to par.
Question: Are any of the ZOE team members working on MGS3, or are they
separate teams? Or is MGS3 so all-encompassing you have to bring in
those programmers and artists?
Kojima: It's a secret.
Question: MGS 2 was a couple of years ago now, and you're now working
hard on MGS 3. But has working on Twin Snakes and being so close to
the original MGS again influenced Snake Eater? I know that MGS3 will
exceed MGS2, but has the closeness of original game affected you?
Kojima: It's actually really influencing us, going back to MGS and
then working on MGS 3. I actually went back and played the original
MGS, and I shouldn't be saying this because it's my own game, but I
really enjoyed playing it. I want to introduce that taste of enjoyment
of playing MGS into MGS3, so that's one of my goals.
Question: This question is for Mr. Shinkawa. Metal Gear has
historically been set a little ahead of the present, and the
mechanical designs are slightly futuristic. That's different for Snake
Eater -- how is it designing something that's a bit behind the
present?
Shinkawa: There's a person on the team who works with me and helps me
come up with these older designs for not just the mechanics, but also
the characters. This person is sort of hardcore in that direction, he
goes in and tries to catch something from the past, and helps me come
up with the sixties flavor.
In all honesty, for me, it's easier to come up with a futuristic
design, especially when my designs wouldn't have to be limited at all.
If we go back in time I can't come up with something that's totally
wild looking. I have to use a past, historical look.
Question: Following up on that question, going through the pamphlet
you've given us, the timing seems to center in the 1960s. Is this the
actual time period the game takes place in, or just an aesthetic
influence? I can't imagine people in the future just wanting their
weapons to look retro. It seems like this game is taking place in the
past.
Following that, is Kojima-san prepared to give any clues about the
identity of the lead character? Because the Snake that we know would
probably be too young.
Kojima: As for who this Snake guy is, I can't say anything, but what
you have in mind is pretty much correct. And yes, the game does take
place in the sixties.
Question: We're not going to fall for some big trick half an hour into
the game?
Kojima: There might be something nice in there.
Question: One thing I've been wondering about -- it's kind of a
fashion for long running series, for example when Zelda: The Wind
Waker was released, as part of the campaign it came with a disc with
Ocarina of Time. I was wondering if you were considering doing
anything like that with some of the older 8-bit Metal Gear titles. It
might be an opportunity for the MSX Metal Gear 2, which never has come
out in the U.S., to do so.
Kojima: I personally don't think that the old games look that good. I
sort of want to bury those old games in the past, because it's not
retro enough. If it were even older, it would probably be neat to
stick it into my game. The thing is that it does have a few colors,
but it doesn't have enough colors. It doesn't look good at all.
Question: I have a question about the setting. In the grand scheme of
things, was it always planned to go back and visit the '60s-- was that
something you'd always wanted to do with the Metal Gear Solid series?
I also wonder the same thing about the eating. Was it something you'd
wanted to tackle, or was it something you decided on when it was time
to start figuring out what MGS 3 would be?
Kojima: I always had the idea of going back in time in mind. I always
wanted to do that sometime. As for the whole survival thing, that was
something I came up with when we first started designing MGS 3.
Question: How is making outdoor levels?
Kojima: It's very tough to do.
Question: Has it influenced gameplay in ways you had not expected?
Kojima: Since you're in the jungle there are no flat surfaces, so the
whole collision thing, walking above these rocks and mounds is really
tough. We could not use the collision engine from the previous game.
Another problem with that is the motion capture, setting it up so
people could walk over these mounds. That's a big problem we have to
overcome in the next few months.
Question: Did you have to do some survival training in the jungles
with Mori-san?
Kojima: The three of us and nine other guys -- twelve total -- were
taken into the mountains by Mr. Mori and we were given rations. We
were told to not eat anything besides the rations, and we actually had
to place a guard at night. We had two-hour shifts, and we all had to
do it.
Yoji Shinkawa and I were on the same, and Mr. Matsuhana was on a
different team. His team was attacked by Mr. Mori's team and they were
all killed. Mr. Mori's team is killer -- they're so strong.
Question: So Mr. Mori has consulted since the original MGS for
PlayStation, or before that?
Kojima: Yes, since MGS.
Question: So you've been training with Mr. Mori for MGS, MGS 2, and
now MGS 3. Is Mr. Kojima's team the most lethal team of developers in
the industry?
Kojima: Yeah. We have gone through a lot of training, including SWAT
training. Mr. Mori has taken to a lot of different kinds of training
and given us lectures. He actually thinks, like you said, that we are
the best in the industry. He actually tests us to see what we've
retained and the problem is that we've forgotten everything.
Question: So you could really eliminate the competition?
Kojima: I don't know.
There are also trends and fads in the combat world. They used to fight
this way five years ago, but now we do something else, and that's old
stuff. It's fun to see the changes in the world.
Question: So has Mori-san tried to implement combat tactics from the
'60s, or are we going to see more recent stuff because it's more fun?
Kojima: Actually, what you see in the game -- close quarters combat --
is cutting-edge fighting methods. As you say, we're throwing in the
newest stuff because it's going to look better and it's going to be
more fun. You saw Snake and the enemy soldier in our Snake Eater
trailer? We actually motion-captured Mori for the first time, because
a normal actor would not be capable of these advanced tactics.
Question: So Mori-san played the role of Snake?
Kojima: Yes, and the actor who was thrown was the actor who played the
role of Raiden in the last game. The thing about Mr. Mori is, that
when he does his throws he
actually does them -- he's not just pretending. The guy being thrown
gets damaged.
Question: What is Mori-san's actual background?
Kojima: Instruction. We really can't reveal what he's done in the
past, because it's sensitive. These sorts of people have been in
special forces.
Question: You didn't find him in the back of Soldier of Fortune
magazine, did you?
Kojima: He's actually written his own books about this sort of thing,
and he writes novels too. I'd read a few of his books and I contacted
him. It turned out that he'd played my games, just like Ryuhei
Kitamura.
Question: Would you ever consider revisiting the hard sci-fi universe
of Policenauts and Snatcher?
Kojima: I'd love to do something sci-fi. If I could have someone else
work on the next Metal Gear, then I could work on something that would
be sci-fi.
Question: MGS and MGS 2 were based on contemporary political and
cultural issues. MGS was about the issue of genetics, and MGS 2 was
about the future of information in the digital era. Does MGS 3 draw
its cultural and political inspiration from the events of the '60s, as
mentioned in the timeline you've handed out?
Kojima: Yes, it will involve the political and historical background
of the '60s. By learning the past, it reflects the future in a way.
Genetics, information, and then time ... these three things will work
together and complete the saga and conclude the grand theme. Now that
it will be concluded, I hope someone else will work on MGS 4.
By playing this game you will learn about what went on between the two
superpowers -- the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Now there is no Soviet
Union, there are no two superpowers. The world is so different. You
will be able to see what the world has gone through and how it is now.
This is the kind of thing I would like people to take from the game,
and that's the message I want to portray.